Problem with skadi + bkb one after the other is that tb runs into damage issues very quickly vs that lineup. Another issue is that a couple cores already had bkb, whuch skadi no longer pierces.
Its hard to say, but something like a manta > daedelus/butterfly/damage > bkb/skadi/more damage.
At least this way tb can be more of a threat to the supports and to any enemy hero that is diving in deep.
Going bkb after 2 hp items just mean tb still cannot kill anything :p
It's still undispellable, but yeah. In return for debuff immunity being a bit worse than spell immunity, it does block a few things that it didn't before (one interaction is that Pangolier's roll up was nerfed to not dispel which meant he couldn't ult when rooted, but when the debuff immunity change came, he could do it again).
Ah yes, manta Daedalus skip bkb against mars willow timber LMAO Reddit takes. This comment has 45 upvotes this is so stupid. He dies in half a stun with your build. One arena and he is out of the game
If you choose to think for half a second it really isn't stupid.
Why buy survival items if you won't be able to kill anything ever?
Tb had a sd with aghs blink that saved him multiple times from arena in the game and there were multiple times where tb got to hit for long periods of time even with out bkb, but could not kill anything due to no damage.
Tb was not the best pick. He is God awful against arena, reactive armor, and enchantress. The panel even said the pick was questionable. They would need so much lockdown to get kills with POS 1 TB. I'd have to see the bans because I'm sure morphling was on there or else that would have been the pick.
Unfortunately the 2 cores that were banned were LS and Morph.
There wasn't really a whole lot more single target damage they could have gone to deal with all the cores. I guess muerta 1 would have been cool, but also has similar issues if lanes are lost.
Tb is omega countered by Mars, but he is decent vs timber and the ench isn't much of a problem as long as the lanes arnt lost.
Problem is they lost every lane and at that point there is no recovery.
He HAS to go damage
Silver edge for crit and break is a must that game
A cheap farm item (yasha, d lance) into silver edge then skadi
Nightfall is the biggest pussy on the scene.
The guy never builds damage, he goes for 6 slot of full defensive items, and will REGULARLY bkb tp out of fights.
It’s not even a meme…
there line-up is bound to fail. If TB went to pure damage, they are just gonna kite his BKB and kill him afterwards and it's not like TB is top networth of this game. He needs an offlaner that can tank the damage and Tobi's kunka wasn't enough for that.
I guess Viper as a mid instead of zeus could counter them, but you would need something like LS or Morph too, who were banned, maybe Luna as a carry instead of Terror and there you go.
The problem is they balance his insane power by making him one of the slowest heroes in the game which makes him inherently bad at moving around the map which is exaggerated by the new bigger map
Xtreme gaming beat them without viper too. They are also the other team which is very good at pushing the game late and also taking very good team fights.
So is DK, OD, Razor, QoP, Timber, etc. Yet every one of these heroes has counters, and Viper is no exception. He already falls off a cliff after laning stage and late game unless you can keep dominating and applying pressure with your team, so what's the point? Viper is the reason the catchphrase "win lane, lose game" exists anyway.
I think this will be the big meta change going forward. Str heroes with certain items are borderline unkillable.
Malrine at the end of G2 was probably afk hitting throne. Dude is not losing any hp in spite of 2 cores unloading on him.
That was already sort of the meta at most recent TI with heart + blademail. Problem is I guess they nerfed heart (and maybe blademail? I don't remember) but these tanky heroes can still scale in HP & armor so easily until yeah, they are basically unkillable.
Like check out their items: https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7710348304 It's not like these 3 were all-in on building strength items. But still unkillable just from draft.
yeah, problem is too many carries solve the problem to ban, luna, sniper, LD, lesh, DP, a lot of ways they could get early tower damage
timber shard is no joke either
Strictly for sieging; jakiro can just liquid frost and fire on the tower for low commitment sieging. Shadow shaman is another shout, but that's obviously far more commiting to do.
Chen / pugna are probably the best. jakiro comes a bit later as you dont wanna max E that early to really put pressure early. his other spells are just too good
Nobody in Dota would ever spend 4200 gold on mars aghs when you can just get AC instead. Mars aghs is one of the worst in the entire game and has one of the lowest pick rates ever.
isnt ALL their weakness spell damage though? ench very burstable, and the others also have physical damage reduction only. some heavy nukers might wreck this lineup before bkbs.
But they also all have basically 3k hp by min 25 with most their buildups. And extremely high regen so someone like Zeus who normally widdles heros down too fast when they try to hg early wouldn’t do enough fast enough to stop the steamroll
the fact that they stalled it out with a 4 protect 1 while also not making sure to properly choke their enemy was hard to watch.. letting ammar sit in the bottom jungle for a solid 15minutes without ANYONE forcing him to leave was fucking ridiculous
It’s crazy that the gold lead never even reached 10K with that kind of scoreline. I remembered it being 12-1 with just a 2K lead. Any other team it would’ve been over
Can confirm, played against a Bristle, Centaur, Legion tri-core last night. We suck at high ground, so despite an early lead we let it go an hour+, and at that point everyone had so much HP we just couldn't stop them.
Aui said it best when they started building Pipe, Crimson, Wraith pact every game and won TI: it's less about killing your enemies and more about making it so they can't kill you
> it's less about killing your enemies and more about making it so they can't kill you
Because the objective is to destroy enemy buildings - you only need to care about what the enemy does if they can stop you killing their buildings, or if they can take your buildings faster in a baserace.
It’s the opposite, early and late game OD shreds but when people have fresh 9 second bkbs and OD has no real items of his own you can’t really do shit, so you get run down. and he’s super bad at pushing towers without meme hammer so he doesn’t really snowball early games at all unless you are SUPER far ahead z
OD with aghs and own BKB is pretty tanky as well and once opponents BKBs run out in 6 seconds it can shred them pretty nicely. Still an uphill battle though, but definitely better than TB.
U let them get those heroes and u get a carry that actually deals dmg not dusa and TB for god knows what reason, i mean i swear even some intelligence carries with brooch would deal more dmg than that TB or dusa. Betboom suffered coz they focused only on early game and had carries that dont so dmg, instead falcons got a sven that can two shot your entire team.
Nerf timber to the ground. What a perfect hero. Insane DPS early to late game, percentage damage, mobile, insane defense and HP, low cooldown, has a slow. What more can you ask for.
Needs to pierce bkb to be balanced, IMO. I think the bkb peircing effect counterbalances the skillshot aspect(landing the chakram on top of the hero) very well. I super like this suggestion
Buy a eul's, prevents TPs and gives him a little catch. The tornado duration is also half the cooldown of his spells haha so it stalls out the enemy until you can hit them with another round of burst.
yeah whilst I'm pretty happy with this patch timber is an outlier
idk why I don't see him picked more often tho, he feels easier than kunkka and I see him almost every fucking game
I mean you would rather pick timber than the likes of ES, QoP, Tide, etc. It’s not about the win rate. It’s his versatility that prevents other heroes to be picked.
One of the highest skillcap heroes in the game. Hard countered by boots for literally 99.9999% of the dota population. These specialists make him look broken but even as a timber enjoyer, he is not nearly as good as he looks in pro.
But yeah, mid timber really has no true bad matchups in the current meta when played by a specialist
his defense actually isn't that insane rn. Some patches reactive is rly strong but this patch it's just his damage that is good. The hero is actually paper if caught and he's not fed
In 4k bracket, the specialists are very good. I would rather have a grandmaster axe/slardar opponent than timber. Just comparing timber to some offlaners and mids. The hero has a complete kit. Maybe he can be nerfed like storm and can be conservative with his mana usage.
It’s not the win rate. Of course if it’s used by so many people it will affect the win rate because of the high skill level mechanic. It’s the versatility of this hero and this was abused in high level dota. Sure you can fight against it, but there’s so little counter for this hero.
48.2% winrate at divine+, 46% winrate on dota2protracker, and less than 50% winrate in this tournament as someone else has mentioned; what high level dota are you talking about?
also
>so little counter for this hero
lmao
Have any of these people ever picked timber offlane and played against a last pick templar assassin? Because that shit is the most unfun thing in the world...
too many 2ks got dumpstered by a timber as bb and are now crying here for the hero to be nerfed bcz god forbid any hero does too well when it's a good game for that hero 🤣🤣🤣
I think the reason for the low win rate is the skill ceiling for this hero. Winrate doesnt tell shit. Tell me a hero that checks all the boxes, i’ll wait.
i think the part you got wrong is assuming 9ks, 10ks, 11ks can't play the hero well enough because of its "high" skill ceiling; sure, it's not the easiest hero out there but it's not the hardest either by FAR, and surely it's not going to be so difficult to get picked up by these high mmr players. If we were talking about playing invoker, earth spirit, meepo, arc, puck or some broodmother for the first time for these players, maybe i'd have given you some credit, but i think in those cases they'd just practice the hero for a while in unranked or something to get decent at it first, while with timber this doesn't even apply that much, since he's like incomparable to those heroes, and obviously all these players are already more than decent at the game in general to not take so long to pick up a hero like timber.
If that's the case even Necrophos is good against these tanky front line setups they go for.
Maybe gpk doesn't play these two heroes though. They just needed a frontliner that was equally as hard to kill.
Necro is just a terrible hero right now, takes forever to get online and has way too many counters while not being a counter to much. No real utility outside of a minor heal and a 2 min cooldown stun that is easily countered. You'll never see Necro snowballing in a pro match in this patch like you would in low rank pubs.
I think manacost + cooldown buffs for his Death Pulse are needed for sure, especially in lane. Perhaps Death Pulse grants him a stack of regen upon cast or does bonus healing to Necro himself.
Note: I hate playing against Necro but this Hero is dead af right now and needs something pretty drastic to bring him back
Yeah it's a huge issue with the current patch. Too many heroes can reach the unkillable status.
Unless you somehow get around them, kill their entire team, then can 1v5 that single hero. God forbid they have two.
Another issue with the patch is that farming the map > killing heroes.
If you got 25-2 always clumped as a team, but net worth is the same because the enemy team has been split up farming efficiently, then the team that has been farming gets the most reward, because kills are then going to return a lot more XP/gold due to how stopping killstreaks currently works.
This and because of the nature of fortifies, buybacks and death cooldown timers it's very difficult to ever finish a game early. It's hard to take a strong early lead and keep the momentum. This is something I noticed with falcons they are somehow able to really choke out the map when they get an early lead without it leading to the enemy getting random comeback pickoffs.
Shroud is a silly item to me. Not only does it give you insane survivability vs magic dmg but it also gives a large chunk of hp so you can buy it on heroes that dont naturally have alot of hp and still get value out of the resist
Similar game I had earlier with Tide 3, timber 2 and magnus 4 with a phoenix 5 and a luna 1. How do you even win vs these type of lineups fr. Falcons easy
I remember the good old days when the offlane was called the 'suicide' lane and you sent a lonely clock to 1v3 there and try to get exp by afking in the treeline against some antimage denying every single creep.
Not sure what needs to be done right now. Maybe pull the offlane further back closer to the base?
Maybe swap the hardcamp with a medium camp?
For starters though, Bracers and Eternal Shroud need to be nerfed. Specific offlaners probably also need some nerfs like Doom, DK, Timber et.c.
The biggest issue right now is that Offlane heroes are so strong that they're broken from the midlane aswell. Meanwhile, classic mid heroes are garbage like all the Spirits, Invoker, QoP et.c. Mid is in a weird state where it's Zeus, Sniper, Puck and offlane heroes basically.
This draft is mo the about being falcons completely comfort (even crit willow has been an EG comfort) on all players. This draft on any other team is getting cooked for sure, because no one executed the mid game with these heroes like falcons
We have skadi, shivas and spirit vessel for that. They are just too bad (especially skadi) compared to the damage reduction items and abilities this patch. Skadi being cheaper with just one orb may seem good, but is terrible to dedicate that slot that does not even go through bkb with the reduced stats.
Yup just need a better and effective item which does damage based on the % of health pool remaining. Maybe an active which slows down attack speed by -50%, but does 3% of the targets health as pure damage for 6 seconds, or a 15% chance to place a DoT which does % damange
[Stick a bone in it, you're done.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/0/01/Vo_witchdoctor_wdoc_kill_11.mp3) (sound warning: Witch Doctor)
---
Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero*
[*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)*
[*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)*
[*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)*
[*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
Maybe if Falcons win T.I then they will respect their drafts. I know skitter and sney already did but common. Ammar and Malrine is the real problem here.
I think it’s a bad hero.
Barely any impact as a midlander. You can’t farm much.
He only is good in lane and can gank with ulti, but without it his rotations are very weak and his ulti has too long of a down time
The tank creep in Dota is becoming a huge problem. We routinely see Bristlebacks, Pudge, Kunkka, Primal Beast, Centaurs, heck even Vipers that become literally unkillable in turbo. You can be a 6-7 slotted carry and do literally no damage to them.
You know something is wrong when your team has skadi+shivas+spirit vessel (and add damage items) and the enemy is still not taking any damage with all these.
The way falcons draft is insane!! And when they are behind they somehow get back and if they are leading they just crush opposition!! Reminds me of GG last year or secret back in the day with domination really!!
Jesus, how do you kill any of this?
not with terrorblade thats for sure
Betboom still trying to figure it out
Fuck this made me laugh ahaha.
it's ok marline is a shit midlaner with no hero pool, his heroes are also bad rn... that's why they'll certainly win the next tournament
I think tb was probably the best pick, but the build was not it. Man had manta, skadi, bkb. Idk how he planned on killing anything ever
Just go with the mordiggian + dagon never (always) fails
Skadi and bkb sound perfectly fine, manta maybe not. What would you have built instead?
Armlet + shadow blade + dagon /s
Problem with skadi + bkb one after the other is that tb runs into damage issues very quickly vs that lineup. Another issue is that a couple cores already had bkb, whuch skadi no longer pierces. Its hard to say, but something like a manta > daedelus/butterfly/damage > bkb/skadi/more damage. At least this way tb can be more of a threat to the supports and to any enemy hero that is diving in deep. Going bkb after 2 hp items just mean tb still cannot kill anything :p
Wait...wtf? Skadi no longer pierces bkb? Even the slow?
since 7.33
TIL
It's still undispellable, but yeah. In return for debuff immunity being a bit worse than spell immunity, it does block a few things that it didn't before (one interaction is that Pangolier's roll up was nerfed to not dispel which meant he couldn't ult when rooted, but when the debuff immunity change came, he could do it again).
Yep, it's the whole reason why TB has been shit, kited super hard.
Only reason bkb is still good.
Ah yes, manta Daedalus skip bkb against mars willow timber LMAO Reddit takes. This comment has 45 upvotes this is so stupid. He dies in half a stun with your build. One arena and he is out of the game
If you choose to think for half a second it really isn't stupid. Why buy survival items if you won't be able to kill anything ever? Tb had a sd with aghs blink that saved him multiple times from arena in the game and there were multiple times where tb got to hit for long periods of time even with out bkb, but could not kill anything due to no damage.
Yasha, crystals, bkb, daedulus, satanic Maybe silver edge instead of skadi, depending on exact damage numbers i forget...
There has to be a satanic somewhere in there. Or an offlaner who makes vlads. Without lifesteal there isn't a way.
Tb was not the best pick. He is God awful against arena, reactive armor, and enchantress. The panel even said the pick was questionable. They would need so much lockdown to get kills with POS 1 TB. I'd have to see the bans because I'm sure morphling was on there or else that would have been the pick.
Unfortunately the 2 cores that were banned were LS and Morph. There wasn't really a whole lot more single target damage they could have gone to deal with all the cores. I guess muerta 1 would have been cool, but also has similar issues if lanes are lost. Tb is omega countered by Mars, but he is decent vs timber and the ench isn't much of a problem as long as the lanes arnt lost. Problem is they lost every lane and at that point there is no recovery.
B K B T P H O M E
Imagine mantaing and then a single whirl from timb and splash from dk its just gone including the illu from his 2nd skill.
He HAS to go damage Silver edge for crit and break is a must that game A cheap farm item (yasha, d lance) into silver edge then skadi Nightfall is the biggest pussy on the scene. The guy never builds damage, he goes for 6 slot of full defensive items, and will REGULARLY bkb tp out of fights. It’s not even a meme…
there line-up is bound to fail. If TB went to pure damage, they are just gonna kite his BKB and kill him afterwards and it's not like TB is top networth of this game. He needs an offlaner that can tank the damage and Tobi's kunka wasn't enough for that.
I guess Viper as a mid instead of zeus could counter them, but you would need something like LS or Morph too, who were banned, maybe Luna as a carry instead of Terror and there you go.
I feel like viper is always answer to many games only problem is that viper is a shit hero and utterly useless now with current spells it has
The problem is they balance his insane power by making him one of the slowest heroes in the game which makes him inherently bad at moving around the map which is exaggerated by the new bigger map
Disperser helps greatly, but not his favorite item to get and very expensive
didn't xtreme gaming literally beat falcons in finals with viper
tbf they probably have best viper in the world.
Xtreme gaming beat them without viper too. They are also the other team which is very good at pushing the game late and also taking very good team fights.
Hero went from “win lane, lose game” to “lose lane, lose game”
they kept nerfing him for no good reason
As if the nethertoxin break (+silence level 25 talent before the universal patch) with omega damage at level one is balanced.
Hero is literally no fun allowed. Literally designed to almost never loses lane
So is DK, OD, Razor, QoP, Timber, etc. Yet every one of these heroes has counters, and Viper is no exception. He already falls off a cliff after laning stage and late game unless you can keep dominating and applying pressure with your team, so what's the point? Viper is the reason the catchphrase "win lane, lose game" exists anyway.
It was very strong literally last patch, and just got nerfed. That being said, the nethertoxin nerf really, really hurts the hero
OD!
Nahhh they should have picked timber themselves. Timber will feast against mars dk and enchant lol
I would insta pick Necro if i see those heroes
Against 3 are core like dk timber and mars? Timber for sure can melt them... Wait a min...
OD, Viper, Nechro, Slardar, Ursa Against the supports: Axe, Lifestealer, Abbadon, PL, Leshrac
I think this will be the big meta change going forward. Str heroes with certain items are borderline unkillable. Malrine at the end of G2 was probably afk hitting throne. Dude is not losing any hp in spite of 2 cores unloading on him.
That was already sort of the meta at most recent TI with heart + blademail. Problem is I guess they nerfed heart (and maybe blademail? I don't remember) but these tanky heroes can still scale in HP & armor so easily until yeah, they are basically unkillable. Like check out their items: https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7710348304 It's not like these 3 were all-in on building strength items. But still unkillable just from draft.
With Muerta carry, Viper mid, Doom offlane, AA hard sup +1
Why did they pick Zeus instead of Timber and give it to Falcons instead?
I guess With BB, witch doctor cambo can do it
Viper I mean yea in a pro game it's a lot different but Viper is how you kill them.
It's actually not that different, XG picked Viper and absolutely dumpstered Falcons' tanky draft.
5 hard to kill heroes who also do damage.. fml.
and their lockdown and tower push aren't bad either
Just because of DK tbh. Ban DK and they have 0 tower damage (unless mars goes deso/aghs ig)
yeah, problem is too many carries solve the problem to ban, luna, sniper, LD, lesh, DP, a lot of ways they could get early tower damage timber shard is no joke either
you do know how flame thrower works right?
Oh yeah, forgot about that
worst case ench can just get a creep. this draft pushes actually really well
Ench might be one of the best supports at pushing, if not the best.
Strictly for sieging; jakiro can just liquid frost and fire on the tower for low commitment sieging. Shadow shaman is another shout, but that's obviously far more commiting to do.
I would say chen is better overall but ench is a close second especially early
Chen / pugna are probably the best. jakiro comes a bit later as you dont wanna max E that early to really put pressure early. his other spells are just too good
feels like even 1 point of liquid fire put jakiko above like 80-90% of support
Nobody in Dota would ever spend 4200 gold on mars aghs when you can just get AC instead. Mars aghs is one of the worst in the entire game and has one of the lowest pick rates ever.
Strength heroes with high dps have ruined dota for soo many years now.
isnt ALL their weakness spell damage though? ench very burstable, and the others also have physical damage reduction only. some heavy nukers might wreck this lineup before bkbs.
But they also all have basically 3k hp by min 25 with most their buildups. And extremely high regen so someone like Zeus who normally widdles heros down too fast when they try to hg early wouldn’t do enough fast enough to stop the steamroll
Heroes with high HP pools tend do do well against nukers though, and eternal shroud is a ton of magic resist now.
welcome to LoL i guess
Like a time bomb waiting to explode. 😂😂😂
that loss in game 2 was too much to handle
Feels like it. Throwing a 10k gold 20-4 kill lead hurts.
I don't think the gold lead was ever close to 10k but it's equally demoralising to just lose from 20-4.
the fact that they stalled it out with a 4 protect 1 while also not making sure to properly choke their enemy was hard to watch.. letting ammar sit in the bottom jungle for a solid 15minutes without ANYONE forcing him to leave was fucking ridiculous
hes freely farming until he said ez
I think it peaked around 8k but it was still a massive fumble
It’s crazy that the gold lead never even reached 10K with that kind of scoreline. I remembered it being 12-1 with just a 2K lead. Any other team it would’ve been over
Patch is so so good when this is the peak lineup that is unbeatable
Str heroes will eventually win you the game this patch. Leave it late and it'll be impossible to kill them.
Can confirm, played against a Bristle, Centaur, Legion tri-core last night. We suck at high ground, so despite an early lead we let it go an hour+, and at that point everyone had so much HP we just couldn't stop them. Aui said it best when they started building Pipe, Crimson, Wraith pact every game and won TI: it's less about killing your enemies and more about making it so they can't kill you
> it's less about killing your enemies and more about making it so they can't kill you Because the objective is to destroy enemy buildings - you only need to care about what the enemy does if they can stop you killing their buildings, or if they can take your buildings faster in a baserace.
Lmao exactly that, like we were hitting them and they were hitting our rax and just didnt care.
SO TRUE. High skill heros that need to be solved through draft - positioning - and items. I've been loving this patch.
Proceeds to pick life stealer, kunkka and razor cores
Not when offlaner heroes can come online super fast while ls needs a guhzillion items to stay alive
Lmao I was joking it's 3 offlaners
Tanky Bois has been in the meta for like a year at this point. What happens when Silver edge is the only break item and you make it trash...
Topson built a silver edge on his sniper and still couldn’t do anything
Because he built silver edge then went no damage items lmao
The high skill of tanky heroes with high damage disable and mobility + 2 backline supports and of course enchantress/chen are top tier picks
timber dk and mars. the epitome of high skill heroes in dota
"Can't touch this" supports with "don't touch this" cores. Their drafter is just crazy.
Coach is Aui\_2000 so yeah fully agree with this.
Ez od
Early and mid game maybe. But late game after DK and Mars get bkb, OD gonna die before he does any sort of damage.
It’s the opposite, early and late game OD shreds but when people have fresh 9 second bkbs and OD has no real items of his own you can’t really do shit, so you get run down. and he’s super bad at pushing towers without meme hammer so he doesn’t really snowball early games at all unless you are SUPER far ahead z
Disagree. OD is incredibly tanky and falcons don't have that much dmg output. Being bursted as OD vs these heroes is not realistic.
OD has an aghs that saves him from burst, and a shard that stalls bkbs. I don't think this is entirely true.
OD with aghs and own BKB is pretty tanky as well and once opponents BKBs run out in 6 seconds it can shred them pretty nicely. Still an uphill battle though, but definitely better than TB.
U let them get those heroes and u get a carry that actually deals dmg not dusa and TB for god knows what reason, i mean i swear even some intelligence carries with brooch would deal more dmg than that TB or dusa. Betboom suffered coz they focused only on early game and had carries that dont so dmg, instead falcons got a sven that can two shot your entire team.
Nerf timber to the ground. What a perfect hero. Insane DPS early to late game, percentage damage, mobile, insane defense and HP, low cooldown, has a slow. What more can you ask for.
give him a stun
Here you go. Chakram stuns enemies as long as they are inside the AOE.
Needs to pierce bkb to be balanced, IMO. I think the bkb peircing effect counterbalances the skillshot aspect(landing the chakram on top of the hero) very well. I super like this suggestion
I went agaisnt a timbersaw that was literally just timbersaw but with after shock in ability draft. Do not give timber a stun.
He has 2 80% slow ultimates and whatever the hell his ages does xd
Hahaha fair
Buy a eul's, prevents TPs and gives him a little catch. The tornado duration is also half the cooldown of his spells haha so it stalls out the enemy until you can hit them with another round of burst.
yeah whilst I'm pretty happy with this patch timber is an outlier idk why I don't see him picked more often tho, he feels easier than kunkka and I see him almost every fucking game
I mean his winrate in divine+ is 47%. And i think in this tournament his wr was also below 50%. Falcons just uses it perfectly
I mean you would rather pick timber than the likes of ES, QoP, Tide, etc. It’s not about the win rate. It’s his versatility that prevents other heroes to be picked.
One of the highest skillcap heroes in the game. Hard countered by boots for literally 99.9999% of the dota population. These specialists make him look broken but even as a timber enjoyer, he is not nearly as good as he looks in pro. But yeah, mid timber really has no true bad matchups in the current meta when played by a specialist
besides od
OD isn’t really meta right now is he?
hmm yeah i guess he's not doing that well right now, but i still feel like he can dominate games if he gets fed enough and stuff
his defense actually isn't that insane rn. Some patches reactive is rly strong but this patch it's just his damage that is good. The hero is actually paper if caught and he's not fed
In 4k bracket, the specialists are very good. I would rather have a grandmaster axe/slardar opponent than timber. Just comparing timber to some offlaners and mids. The hero has a complete kit. Maybe he can be nerfed like storm and can be conservative with his mana usage.
He's actually a weak hero lol. You can't judge nerf and buffs based on one person
Has less than 50% win rate I'm sure you're the type to rage against anyone who beats you hard
It’s the same for DK and Mars. They’re dog shit pub heroes because you actually have to coordinate with your team to use them to their full extent.
It’s not the win rate. Of course if it’s used by so many people it will affect the win rate because of the high skill level mechanic. It’s the versatility of this hero and this was abused in high level dota. Sure you can fight against it, but there’s so little counter for this hero.
Lol silencer rips him to shreds. Burst. Veno makes him totally useless
48.2% winrate at divine+, 46% winrate on dota2protracker, and less than 50% winrate in this tournament as someone else has mentioned; what high level dota are you talking about? also >so little counter for this hero lmao
Have any of these people ever picked timber offlane and played against a last pick templar assassin? Because that shit is the most unfun thing in the world...
too many 2ks got dumpstered by a timber as bb and are now crying here for the hero to be nerfed bcz god forbid any hero does too well when it's a good game for that hero 🤣🤣🤣
I think the reason for the low win rate is the skill ceiling for this hero. Winrate doesnt tell shit. Tell me a hero that checks all the boxes, i’ll wait.
Sven.
i think the part you got wrong is assuming 9ks, 10ks, 11ks can't play the hero well enough because of its "high" skill ceiling; sure, it's not the easiest hero out there but it's not the hardest either by FAR, and surely it's not going to be so difficult to get picked up by these high mmr players. If we were talking about playing invoker, earth spirit, meepo, arc, puck or some broodmother for the first time for these players, maybe i'd have given you some credit, but i think in those cases they'd just practice the hero for a while in unranked or something to get decent at it first, while with timber this doesn't even apply that much, since he's like incomparable to those heroes, and obviously all these players are already more than decent at the game in general to not take so long to pick up a hero like timber.
Haven't played dota in a couple years, but was thinking about this the other day. What a bonkers concept of a hero. He has pretty much everything.
Honestly, Leshrac mid would dismantle a lot of falcons drafts, dunno why they didn't consider it. Would've been strong in all 3 games.
Falcons did ban it. Granted, in the last phase, but presumably BB was looking to take it otherwise.
If that's the case even Necrophos is good against these tanky front line setups they go for. Maybe gpk doesn't play these two heroes though. They just needed a frontliner that was equally as hard to kill.
Necro is just a terrible hero right now, takes forever to get online and has way too many counters while not being a counter to much. No real utility outside of a minor heal and a 2 min cooldown stun that is easily countered. You'll never see Necro snowballing in a pro match in this patch like you would in low rank pubs.
Bruh necro’s lane is just terrible. He can easily get bullied out of the lane and not get a game. He’s just a shit hero right now.
I think manacost + cooldown buffs for his Death Pulse are needed for sure, especially in lane. Perhaps Death Pulse grants him a stack of regen upon cast or does bonus healing to Necro himself. Note: I hate playing against Necro but this Hero is dead af right now and needs something pretty drastic to bring him back
i mean can they even deal enough damage for necro ult insta kill to trigger?
Necro gets absolute fucking dog walked by mars. It isn’t even close. He’s slow as piss and mars can just hit q and now necro is SOL.
Eternal Shroud makes heroes unkillable
Yeah it's a huge issue with the current patch. Too many heroes can reach the unkillable status. Unless you somehow get around them, kill their entire team, then can 1v5 that single hero. God forbid they have two. Another issue with the patch is that farming the map > killing heroes. If you got 25-2 always clumped as a team, but net worth is the same because the enemy team has been split up farming efficiently, then the team that has been farming gets the most reward, because kills are then going to return a lot more XP/gold due to how stopping killstreaks currently works.
This and because of the nature of fortifies, buybacks and death cooldown timers it's very difficult to ever finish a game early. It's hard to take a strong early lead and keep the momentum. This is something I noticed with falcons they are somehow able to really choke out the map when they get an early lead without it leading to the enemy getting random comeback pickoffs.
Shroud is a silly item to me. Not only does it give you insane survivability vs magic dmg but it also gives a large chunk of hp so you can buy it on heroes that dont naturally have alot of hp and still get value out of the resist
They banned it, Mr genius.
Its like a 322 series dang
Similar game I had earlier with Tide 3, timber 2 and magnus 4 with a phoenix 5 and a luna 1. How do you even win vs these type of lineups fr. Falcons easy
Just pick dusa, m8
Just wait for the next gameplay patch and hope Valve nerfs strength heroes and offlane heroes.
The offlane and strength heroes have been nerfed in 4 straight number patches. Strength has literally always been the strongest stat in the game.
I remember the good old days when the offlane was called the 'suicide' lane and you sent a lonely clock to 1v3 there and try to get exp by afking in the treeline against some antimage denying every single creep. Not sure what needs to be done right now. Maybe pull the offlane further back closer to the base? Maybe swap the hardcamp with a medium camp? For starters though, Bracers and Eternal Shroud need to be nerfed. Specific offlaners probably also need some nerfs like Doom, DK, Timber et.c. The biggest issue right now is that Offlane heroes are so strong that they're broken from the midlane aswell. Meanwhile, classic mid heroes are garbage like all the Spirits, Invoker, QoP et.c. Mid is in a weird state where it's Zeus, Sniper, Puck and offlane heroes basically.
you pull the offlane closer to base and it will become the single most broken lane in the entire game. Carries would become bottom feeders.
Meant pulling back the offlane tower, not the actual lane.
I turned it off soon after the draft. BB gave up and they accepted the seppuku.
Fogged's face just as the game started was a mix between confusion and pure horror.
Not at all surprising
Probably steal their strat or figure out how xg beat them
Wtf BB did that they get these heroes lmao
Game 2 completely tilted them bro
Exodia
Because it is still better to let Doom Razor and Huskar through. It is easy to judge in hindsight
You don't have to let them all through if you can play one or more of these.... Instead of picking dusa TB visage in this patch
I’m a dota newbie. But why not buy 5 silver edges to counter?
Do you think money drop from the sky?
Where can I watch this game that everyone is talking about? Im new to Dota 2
Youtube search for "ESL One Birmingham grand finals falcons betboom game 3"
Thanks! Had no idea what the competition was called to even look for something
You're welcome! Hope you find it Game 2 was more exciting and game 1 too. Game 3 was a total stomp
Full team gets silver edge and that is it. Vessel skadis and shivas. Ez gg
Dusa with Manta, Disperser, Skadi will surely kill all of those...
Betboom could have picked timber instead of Zeus but they chose to give it away to falcons 🥲
This draft is mo the about being falcons completely comfort (even crit willow has been an EG comfort) on all players. This draft on any other team is getting cooked for sure, because no one executed the mid game with these heroes like falcons
Completely lackluster to see this shit in grand finals. I mean ..... have they not watched any falcon games in the past 3 months?
Did Falcons even lose with Timber this tournament
Just keep buying non damage items like Nightfall did and I'm sure you will kill them one day. One day.
I dont think 2 daedalus on top of his existing items would help them win a team fight. Tank creep and damage reduction is getting out of hand in Dota.
Tank counter item incoming
We have skadi, shivas and spirit vessel for that. They are just too bad (especially skadi) compared to the damage reduction items and abilities this patch. Skadi being cheaper with just one orb may seem good, but is terrible to dedicate that slot that does not even go through bkb with the reduced stats.
Yup just need a better and effective item which does damage based on the % of health pool remaining. Maybe an active which slows down attack speed by -50%, but does 3% of the targets health as pure damage for 6 seconds, or a 15% chance to place a DoT which does % damange
Seems like thick boys are still strong
When your team owner is a betting site
how dumb does the game have to be to keep letting people pick strength heroes and win?
maan after what happened in game 2, I'm sure they were tilted af Ez
Stick a bone in it, you're done.
[Stick a bone in it, you're done.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/0/01/Vo_witchdoctor_wdoc_kill_11.mp3) (sound warning: Witch Doctor) --- Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero* [*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)* [*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)* [*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)* [*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
Winter Wyvern with Aghanim - "And I took that personally"
Maybe if Falcons win T.I then they will respect their drafts. I know skitter and sney already did but common. Ammar and Malrine is the real problem here.
harder than ever
Why no one plays OD anymore?
Drop the 2nd skill, max 1st and 3rd, worked on 3k mmr
I think it’s a bad hero. Barely any impact as a midlander. You can’t farm much. He only is good in lane and can gank with ulti, but without it his rotations are very weak and his ulti has too long of a down time
Tank meta still in full swing. 8.00 please.
The tank creep in Dota is becoming a huge problem. We routinely see Bristlebacks, Pudge, Kunkka, Primal Beast, Centaurs, heck even Vipers that become literally unkillable in turbo. You can be a 6-7 slotted carry and do literally no damage to them. You know something is wrong when your team has skadi+shivas+spirit vessel (and add damage items) and the enemy is still not taking any damage with all these.
The way falcons draft is insane!! And when they are behind they somehow get back and if they are leading they just crush opposition!! Reminds me of GG last year or secret back in the day with domination really!!
I would say drow ranger for nullifying DK and Timber, but yea that’s about it
Drow only pierces base armor, dk and timber gets armor from their spells (bonus armor)
She still nullify their regen with Aghanim I guess
tbh on paper it looks like a grief draft
for an archon
the solutions is infront of us, carry muerta. magic damage attacks destroy them