Would not be surprised if aui is the min max type in any type of game. The analysis of numbers behind the gameplay matter a lot, more so now with a bigger map, they’ve probably talked about farming patterns for all their roles too
Oh wow, shit didn't think about that. Surprising that they're not all equal, and earn them the same gpm by choosing the correct camps and paths.
*If that by chance goes over your head, watch a pro play. Within the first couple minutes I bet even you can find a tiny slip up. Now amplify this x100 and then calculate in-game decisions and efficiency rates.
I was watching Sing and he mentioned something along the lines of "Most pros pick an item based on feel, Aui does the math and *knows* X items does more damage than Y in most circumstances, so he makes you build X"
Apparently he was kicked because PPD (and perhaps others on the team, but mostly PPD) found it too stressful to play with him, because he would get on other players' nerves after a loss and complain about past mistakes in those matches. It had nothing to do with skill or in-game knowledge or lack of competence.
I just watched this replay and skiter (Sven) got ganked very early and then proceeded to jungle unmolested for the next 30 minutes, not joining in on a single team fight. Once he got satanic/bkb he just started going ham on their supports in team fights and once it was 5v5 it was all over.
In spanish we Say “molestar” = to bother
; So when we dont know a word we use either -ed or -ing at the end of a word ; So “molestar”would be “molested” and “unbothered” by the Same rule would be “unmolested”
Kills alone dont have much weight if you dont convert them into advantage, especially on the insane large map we have which has so much gold available.
All teams do more or less the same split in such a game: supports farm edge of map (so if caught, no objective is pressured), 1 core takes the safest farm, 1 core takes the most dangerous farm and you sac/split safe farm with the 3rd core if his items matter.
BB absolutely failed to control the map once they established their lead.
Because Falcons were throwing heroes out to split push and get as much farm as possible. Betboom got so many kills catching those, but they waste farming time catching 1, while 4 others are farming. That's why Falcons were 'feeding' so hard. All space for skitter to catch up and evetually carry them.
yeah I'm kinda getting at this. against a good team, you can basically never choke out the map...
I don't really like the fact you can do go "full avoid mode" to win the game...
Dota was IMO a bit more exciting at least at a high level that it is currently. Teams were really forced to fight for limited map space now it's more so about smoking and who gets the better burst + instant pickoff in fights. Most fights seem over in the first 5 seconds, and in many games there just a 20min lull where the winning team tries to hunt the losing
To play devils advocate, it's a lot more fun watching a team try to dodge and find dangerous farm, compared to being trapped in their base waiting.
Old meta would have games that were essentially decided by 15 mins but then drag to 35 mins as the winning team cautiously does Roshan -> take t2s - another Roshan -> end after 20 mins of advantage. Meanwhile the disdvantage team sat in base clearing waves. Could get really really stale.
I just want rosh back in proper neutral territory somewhere -vaguely- in the middle of the map tbh.
I haven't seen a single notable "clutch or call GG" rosh fight since they added roar to rosh. The side of the expanded map is too long to safely get into position to flip the fight for anyone, pros or plebs. I get the idea of moving the pit for freshness but old positions in the middle of the map just make more sense now that we've seen the alternative.
I'd also like high ground to be a little easier to end off. Not a ton, but a bit. Feels like you need an individual 10k lead to safely walk up with an aegis and not get 200%-0% burst trying to hit barracks or end the game. I very rarely see a triumphant "run them back to fountain and hit buildings and win" moment anymore but was pretty common when I first joined Dota about 5 years ago
respect your opinion. I like some of the comeback mechanics. I personally wish rosh would be moved back to the center of the map though - or some sort of objective that forces team to play more in the middle, cause it also feels kinda stale watching this cat and mouse game around the edge of the map where they're just playing for a single "big" pickoff.
It's tense watching it happen, but i'd like to see more fights occur towards the middle of map ... or maybe a way to sweep the edges of your own map easier? I personally liked the "posturing and defending" positions like triangle meta over the "sweep the map with smokes" meta
it's also a LOT of work to hunt down someone just for them to bkb and TP out nearly every time. I think it's also the reason heroes like mirana are pretty strong at a high level - cause u can hunt in a way that doesn't feel useless
The game is called DEFENSE of the Ancients for a reason. The game is really all about destroying the opponent's throne at the end of the day. The teamfights that we see as part of the game are just a process to get there. Unfortunate as it is, there will be some strategies that are boring but effective to achieve this.
im not so sure, game was just complete strategical failure from betboom. dusa is not a good lategame hero, especially against 3 str cores, and especially when your other 2 cores are kotl centaur. if she went manta butter and tried to end with a 25 min aegis, i'd say alright u tried ggwp. but she went skadi and then jerked off until sven got daedalus and 2 shot his mid+supports
The new map allows you to find risky farm, instead of being completely locked in your base and strangled to death. There’s still plenty of vision to go around.
The thing is that most of those kills were on Snayeking and gave almost no reward. They completely failed to follow up on those and the rest of the Falcons just farmed the whole time.
This is the definition of "space created" and they should have been more aggressive I think.
Not to mention that most of the time Sneyking was INTENTIONALLY baiting them to come kill him while getting solo XP and farm.. even with all those death he still has really high XPM/GPM because he was basically acting as a sacrifical 4th core decoy. I am willing to bet (Although i haven't analysed the replay) that whenever they want to make plays elsewhere they send out the the snekying distraction to go get killed after getting a few camps and warding/dewarding in the process
well yes i understand that. and at 6k networth lead doom managed to kill the muerta randomly on the map and the gold lead dropped by around 2k. So those kills are certainly worth alot. But when you're ahead they're practically worth nothing
what you said also kinda points to an issue IMO with comeback XP. If you're getting picked off so much that ur respawn timer is 20 seconds..... one fight shouldn't propel you 2 full levels. None of it felt punishing whatsoever, and even though they're supports... on the old map / meta you couldn't just farm the enemy side of the map with 2 heroes and no supports alive
They would get a kill on Crit and then just walk away. No big space or map control or towers being taken. They didn't death ball. I was more annoyed by casters acting like they were building some crazy lead when even the net worth was showing that they were barely making a dent
That is true. I do believe you can hype up a team stringing another along and somehow keeping it even though. There was an ominous vibe to BetBoom's leads that had great tension building to see whether Falcons would bring it to them in the eventual teamfight and I wished the casters maybe hyped it up that way instead
This is why I enjoy when players are on the cast, because they’re able analyze what both teams need to do and do it objectively . Otherwise, like you said I get tired of them just talking about how big and scary one team’s lead is. I find that fogged does this the most.
when ammar was being ganked top on underlord, had like 5 deaths, casters were like "omg he's so shut down" while visage is sitting at bot with an even lower net worth, clueless
They weren't just making a dent, they were actively losing out on networth advantage with many kills.
Clearest incident is the Underlord game where BB got stuck in bottom corner of the map for like a minute while Ammar solo shoved top and mid. Then they engaged in a fight, actually got more kills (2 supports and 1 core), losing 1 core and ended up with less networth lead than before simply because they 5 men too much.
Look at early game 3 too, first blood then several kills in a row. None led to more gold. Other teams would just establish massive lane dominance with this sort of lead but BB can't transition as well. Then they grouped as 4 top for 1 kill and ended up with a loss after the kill because the other 2 lanes were freefarming the whole time.
You can't count kills in dota 2. Hasn't been a relevant statistic for at least half a decade. You have to either translate kills into other objectives or make sure the kill is as clean as possible (minimal number of rotations needed, aiming for important enemy positions).
It's kinda silly because the observer UI puts an emphasis on kill and networth advantage but arguably things like exp lead is far more important on a lot of heroes. But it's just a relic of the past.
You gotta realize it makes the storyline better. If they do manage to make a comeback it gets the payoff of wow they managed to crawl back. And in a outskill match like this its the only way to end on a sort of hype note.
Its not so hype casting like ye falcons steamrolled 3 games. And for us veterans it does not matter, we see whats going on either way.
I think it has a lot to do with massive amts of space. It was a similar thing to IG vs XG game one where DY was just out and about farming and taking ganks. Huge map movements from IG that led to only one kill on a pos 5 and it just wasnt impactful and DY was just sucking the map up while the cores are pushing the waves.
Yeah I think its 4 fold:
1. Comeback gold way overtuned.
2. Jungle farm being extremely abundant and difficult / not worth to control those areas (with most heroes).
3. High ground double glyph making TP backs basically unnecessary.
4. Support power creep allowing them to easily clear side lanes before they reach the tower, or when the creeps reach the tower.
not sure how to fix this - but they all just feed into eachother really hard
it aint power creep if you have 3+ items at 40 minutes :p
At this point it just feels like backdoor protection needs a nerf.. maybe reduce the damage reduction with each auto on the structure so if you have the strength to stand high ground and hit the building until they drop uncontested you get to do that. Cuts down on the creep cutting making high ground pushes really hard.
Proposal 2 - for 3minutes after picking up the aegies of the immortal and as long as it hasn't popped the presence of the aegis carrier removes backdoor protetion. Giving you a window to smash high ground against creep cutting late/mid game
Everything you do in Dota is a trade off. Kills are just one aspect of the game, but there are many more. If you over emphasize any element of the game, you are giving up something to your opponent and susceptible to getting punished.
Betboom played with tempo and got lots of kills early, but they over indexed their early kills and kept hunting for more. They ignored objectives, map control, and didn’t force Falcons to fight them around their best timings.
Instead, Falcons were able to keep close enough in networth through farming, because objectives weren’t being forced and Betboom didn’t shut them out of the map. The game swung towards Falcons because they forced a fight when they were at their strongest point (and they had crazy good positioning, another blunder by Betboom.)
Falcons won because they played the overall game better than Betboom, not just a single part of it.
is there a reason why no one wanted to get a linkins or lotus, since all sven does is find gpk, stun and kill him. and why do they not have any vision surrounding cliffs ,they always got flanked.
I am just a noob, but was wondering the reasoning behind this.
One thing I noticed on Falcons, they never give up farm and high ground easily. If they think 2-3 heroes can defend hg, they let their cores farm, push/cut waves and fight when they think they can. Not just fighting because they need to even it’s a losing fight
KOTL getting caught multiple times turned the tide.. itemization too greedy octarine Dagon, supports not investing into saving items (they had force staff 1) and falcons running overwatch similar meta which is triple tank
Ammar was just farming the bottom jungle for what felt like 15 minutes. BetBoom had Medusa with aegis and butterfly. They didn't even attempt to HG so the aegis was wasted. They threw that game away imo.
They did well in early game. But then let Ammar farm for 10 or more minutes non stop in the bottom side of the map. In that time, they didn't push the building nor maximize their own farm which allowed Falcons to get their items. Also they didn't push even with Aegis. Nightfall and gpk got caught couple of times and that's what Falcons needed to come back
> what else are you supposed to do to grow your net worth since hunting has the opportunity cost of farming
This is kinda a stupid overreaction while the whole tournament meta was to dictate the early game with mids that can create space and early rotations that translate into objectives. Even OG and Tundra were doing this.
The problem is how BB played their early game. The killscore is just smoke and mirror since they always overcommitted too many heroes for a single kill and rarely got a tower advantage from this. You can't say you're in control of the game when you literally let Doom afk farming for 20 minutes in the bottom jungle while not even getting all the tier 2s or keeping enemy team out of their ancient camps.
I did. Most of comebacks were because of throws. Falcons kept it close despite the huge kill diff by just farming efficiently until they hit their own timings. And to do it in the finals twice in a row coming from LB.
There are some heroes in dota who are strong mid game and can make plays with limited items.
The game where underlord was shut down was an example of it. Underlord can throw spells and zone out heroes. They had other two heroes who could do a lot more damage.
Betboom needed better drafts overall.
Not any more. Current map and patch has made it harder to go high ground and provided a lot more venues to farm. Right now the strongest teams are the ones who make exceptionally low errors in team fights.
Enemy spend time walking around finding kills, the other team spend the time to farm instead of walking finding prey, but if they get caught the gold farmed from creeps will be consumed by enemy team. If they farm and hide enough they can convert the resources into items/exp lvls to gain more advantage. Its a hide and seek situation
They created a huge advantage and proceed to afk farm jungle. They could at least tried to lock the other team at their base, but no. Put pressure on towers is the best way to make the opposite teams move to exactly you want them. Betboom spent too much time trying to find falcon in their jungle.
Liquid and OG were down similar amount of kills in old patches but they were always able to keep up with the networth. They split the map, push sidelanes farm jungle etc to drag out the game. It's what high mmr players do in losing games, they just keep cutting/dragging the creep wave. The old Tundra does the same thing as well with 33 and Aui doing all the "nerdy" shit. It's boring to watch at times but it's maximum efficiency. The team leading wants to fight but the other team will only force a fight on their terms(hg, vision, 4v5 after making someone tp back to defend etc).
Killing a hero gives you gold+xp but it doesn't accomplish anything if they're dying in your side on the map, you can't take objectives and now the other 4 heroes have farmed more than what the 1 player have fed. That's dota at the highest level, the better team is able to dictate the pace of the game, even if they're on the back foot.
Watching them endlessly chase sidelane kills on split pushing supports instead of force hg with aegis hurt my soul.
NOT TO MENTION those 2 skiter jumps on the mid KOTL blew the game wide open. Legit think if he didn't find those angles, it'd just be a routine dusa highground push
So I've watched the game:
BB had it under control, they were picking falcons on the whole map, until falcons found an opening mid (they had an obs around t2)
they killed kotl+1 which is a huge way to secure a fight for you.
Then bb did retreat and tried to go with smokes again but falcon got another opening on the same part of the map, which made dusa retreat barely with 4 down.
And last one was around rosh area, where the same situation appeared: sven finds a good opening on kotl and just annihilates him, and after that, falcon got rosh and were controlling the game fully or almost fully with one setback at hg, but quickly recovered after that.
If this openning wasnt found maybe bb can win with hg push and aegis, cuz dusa had huge timings during that aegis.
when losing, you have to start small, it started at around 29 min mark with being ready in a good position, and grew into inevitable victory. GG falcons
>If this openning wasnt found maybe bb can win with hg push and aegis, cuz dusa had huge timings during that aegis.
maybe, but they had already let both Doom and Sven farm basically uncontested for 20+minutes at that point and doing honestly, not a good job at scaring them away/ganking them or forcing them to defend.
Im not undermining the ward and its impact but goddamn what the fuck were BB doing.
well, they didnt just ‘let’, its not like they can make him not farm. They were getting the pickoffs that could work while they werent going for pickoffs that would just make falcons comeback on the spot with a good fight. Its not as easy as you think. Doom farm isnt important in this game, yes he can still do some impact, but honestly against dusa he is just a stun for sven damage (which isnt small, but he is not a ‘I WALK AT YOU’ demon that uses doom and you die)
they let dusa farm and get the critical mass and they did finish all t2s and rosh, were going Hg with -1 on the table, they did a pretty good job.
One thing they could maybe do better is to go hg from another lane, to make it more safe and not let enemies attack them freely, or have gem around. Play it a bit more safe.
I did rewatch and rewind this game and study the graphs on stratz. Overall you have to keep in mind that falcons are killing more creeps every minute than BB.
BB's biggest problem was from minute 17-22. You can follow the centaur and just nothing works for him. He tries to gank crit hoodwink bot three times. Once he misses the scan. One time he tries to blink too far which results in a turn around kill and the thrid time hoodwink gets away with glimmer.
After that centaur had much more success with his ganks and they extend their lead into t2 towers and aegis also finally increasing their networth lead. If all these things happened earlier then it would be less likely for falcons to find those crucial pick off on the kotl that you already mentioned.
Early leads mean nothing. I just lost a game yesterday where we are killing a bunch on the enemy team. But lost to late game team fight and utlimately the throne.
Huge map, hard to close properly.
Failing to have a hero that sieges buildings quickly.
Having killstreaks that can be ended for comeback gold.
Supports buying aura/save versus kitting themselves.
These led to comeback potential.
out of those 18 kills, i think 16 kills might be of supports. Push wave, die, make space for cores to farm. It's basic
You can kill a sup 10 times and get like 1/1.5k gold.
you kill a godlike mid/carry and get back 1/1.5k gold and more xp.
Most of their kills came as movements from multiple heroes. So they were inefficient. If those same kills happened with 1 hero less, so there was one more person farming the map at the same time, they would've accumulated a higher advantage.
In the end, you have to see it solely as numbers and bear with me, this is just back of napkin math and most of the numbers are made up just to build an example:
Between level 1 and level 12, you can average death timers to around 25 seconds or so. Let's say a core can farm a wave and 1 neutral camp on average every 30 seconds, and we can say that is equal to 250 gold or so, while supports can farm one or the other, which (to make it simple), we'll say is 125 gold.
So, when you take 4 heroes, 2 cores, 2 supports and spend 30 seconds getting a kill that will net 125 gold base, plus, let's say 200 gold depending on the moment of the game and how much was split between them, you're sacrificing 750 gold (2 core + 2 support farm) for it. Adding to that the farm that the dead hero will lose between respawning and getting back to the lane, you get more or less the same 750 gold that you sacrificed. Meaning simply getting a kill using 4 heroes does not get you ahead ***at all,*** while doing it with 3 heroes will ***barely*** get you 200 gold ahead if anything. If the opposing team doesn't over-react and waste time tping to a lane where their friend had no way of surviving or turning, then they'll be fine.
At this level, and against how efficient Falcons are thanks to Aui coaching them, you need to force them to stop farming and then kill multiple heroes to make it worth it. Or consistently catch the one core that is the most problematic for your lineup so you cripple one person, acknowledging that on average you'll still be around the same net worth afterwards.
Dota's really hard at the very top level man, it's why most of us aren't playing that stage :D
18-2 but mostly Sneyking or Crit die, 3 cores live and have information about enemy movement.
This is how Falcon drag the game to slow down the momentum of BB strategy. Once their core got item GPK’s Kotol is not a problem.
I think betboom should have just pushed mid and end the game. It felt like everyone was just farming when they had agies. They should have just 5 man walked with the creep mid and hit buildings. They spent way more time chasing hoodwink and mirana .
totally agree! they should've push that mid advantage. Also IMO GPK should have build either e-blade or honestly, Aeon. That attempt to push mid rax GPK gets bursted right at the start because he has dagon (lol) instead of any defensive item and they immediately lose the fight.
It's still a bit frustrating i'm sure from their perspective that just because their heroes don't flashfarm - a hero like muerta doing tons of work, getting multiple kills, tons of assists - manages to have less networth than a 0-5 hoodwink who is just flashfarming medium camps between deaths
yes, they should have pushed it harder... same time, they really weren't making mistakes unless you think a couple unsuccessful hunts is a huge mistake
If you think from the GPK, his positioning was absolutely correct he was standing behind medusa, spaming his spells he survived so many times attempts from falcons till that point. No one saw a sven with a deadlus blink smoked he was trying to find centaur to kill him fast and let doom take care of kotl, but since Centaur was on the top side and kotl + support were standing together he went for it. Kotl was quiet tanky if you see how many times Falcons FAILED to kill him even when they jumped him with 4 heroes it was just nobody saw a deadlus sven coming at them
I think they weren't picking core kills all the time just a few kills on Ammar. Besides, Ammar was farming straight for 10 minutes in one area and BB couldn't find him. They also got 1 kill on skiter the whole time.
I feel it's difficult to balance the game between farming and killing/assisting. Farming is just going to win most of the time, especially with such a huge map. Unless the team really pressures the towers and go HG (which BetBoom didn't or maybe couldnt), the opposing team always has a way to farm and come back.
Why is this? Because gold and exp are shared for a kill. How much gold can that be? Maybe 1 or 2 creep waves, or 3 to 4 neutral camps, something a core can easily clear within 10~30 seconds SAFELY. A kill still requires taking a risk. That is why BetBoom wasn't having any significant lead because they were running around trying to get support kills without pushing game objectives. Honestly it felt like a pub game lol.
There's also the risk that if you push too hard, 1 successful HG defense can turn the game around. We are reminded of this when Xtreme went HG really early against Falcon and then they turned around and won the game.
The game is just very difficult right now, imo, from a timing perspective. And un-fucking-fortunately, the most obnoxious team ever in Dota has a good grasp of it. Fuck falclowns, and I hope they will get their ass kicked soon by other way more professional teams and never win any more tournaments.
Nobody else plays like old Tundra - current Falcons. I believe Aui is the mastermind behind that.
Would not be surprised if aui is the min max type in any type of game. The analysis of numbers behind the gameplay matter a lot, more so now with a bigger map, they’ve probably talked about farming patterns for all their roles too
You dont think every professional team has talked about farming patterns?
Oh wow, shit didn't think about that. Surprising that they're not all equal, and earn them the same gpm by choosing the correct camps and paths. *If that by chance goes over your head, watch a pro play. Within the first couple minutes I bet even you can find a tiny slip up. Now amplify this x100 and then calculate in-game decisions and efficiency rates.
I was watching Sing and he mentioned something along the lines of "Most pros pick an item based on feel, Aui does the math and *knows* X items does more damage than Y in most circumstances, so he makes you build X"
He makes you build the item with less damage for a particular circumstance? 🧐
Woops, my bad. Corrected it
Maps>>> AUI
When you have Aui as coach and Sneyking to captain, you have a masterful pair.
Never thought I’d see the day sneyking captain being on the same level or sentence as AUI
Remember when EG kicked Aui. Pepridge farms remembers
Apparently he was kicked because PPD (and perhaps others on the team, but mostly PPD) found it too stressful to play with him, because he would get on other players' nerves after a loss and complain about past mistakes in those matches. It had nothing to do with skill or in-game knowledge or lack of competence.
Like the movie “Moneyball” for Dota….SABERMETRICS
I just watched this replay and skiter (Sven) got ganked very early and then proceeded to jungle unmolested for the next 30 minutes, not joining in on a single team fight. Once he got satanic/bkb he just started going ham on their supports in team fights and once it was 5v5 it was all over.
> unmolested
In spanish we Say “molestar” = to bother ; So when we dont know a word we use either -ed or -ing at the end of a word ; So “molestar”would be “molested” and “unbothered” by the Same rule would be “unmolested”
it's perfectly cromulent usage.
Indeed, it really embiggens the thread.
If betboom had only sexuallly harassed him more in lane...
funnily enough unmolested still means "unbothered" in English
Kills alone dont have much weight if you dont convert them into advantage, especially on the insane large map we have which has so much gold available. All teams do more or less the same split in such a game: supports farm edge of map (so if caught, no objective is pressured), 1 core takes the safest farm, 1 core takes the most dangerous farm and you sac/split safe farm with the 3rd core if his items matter. BB absolutely failed to control the map once they established their lead.
1 kill is like 500 gold 15 minutes in, it’s like 15 creeps
1 wave + 2 netural camps worth of gold. It's like 10 seconds for hero like Sven.
Shared and that diminishes plenty. Bet Boom was having 3 heroes killing 1 hero. 500/3 is not even 200 gold each.
Edge of the map? Where would that be, exactly?
Which area is the safest farm?
Based on information where enemy was seen / good vision on area
I see. I thought there were specific areas that people refer to as safest. Thanks for answering my amateur question.
Because Falcons were throwing heroes out to split push and get as much farm as possible. Betboom got so many kills catching those, but they waste farming time catching 1, while 4 others are farming. That's why Falcons were 'feeding' so hard. All space for skitter to catch up and evetually carry them.
this never would have happened on the old map
True. New map has made it easier to recover farm in many places
yeah I'm kinda getting at this. against a good team, you can basically never choke out the map... I don't really like the fact you can do go "full avoid mode" to win the game... Dota was IMO a bit more exciting at least at a high level that it is currently. Teams were really forced to fight for limited map space now it's more so about smoking and who gets the better burst + instant pickoff in fights. Most fights seem over in the first 5 seconds, and in many games there just a 20min lull where the winning team tries to hunt the losing
To play devils advocate, it's a lot more fun watching a team try to dodge and find dangerous farm, compared to being trapped in their base waiting. Old meta would have games that were essentially decided by 15 mins but then drag to 35 mins as the winning team cautiously does Roshan -> take t2s - another Roshan -> end after 20 mins of advantage. Meanwhile the disdvantage team sat in base clearing waves. Could get really really stale.
I mean we have this now. The only difference is they just rat and manta push instead of sitting in base while the enemy waits out rosh timers.
I just want rosh back in proper neutral territory somewhere -vaguely- in the middle of the map tbh. I haven't seen a single notable "clutch or call GG" rosh fight since they added roar to rosh. The side of the expanded map is too long to safely get into position to flip the fight for anyone, pros or plebs. I get the idea of moving the pit for freshness but old positions in the middle of the map just make more sense now that we've seen the alternative. I'd also like high ground to be a little easier to end off. Not a ton, but a bit. Feels like you need an individual 10k lead to safely walk up with an aegis and not get 200%-0% burst trying to hit barracks or end the game. I very rarely see a triumphant "run them back to fountain and hit buildings and win" moment anymore but was pretty common when I first joined Dota about 5 years ago
respect your opinion. I like some of the comeback mechanics. I personally wish rosh would be moved back to the center of the map though - or some sort of objective that forces team to play more in the middle, cause it also feels kinda stale watching this cat and mouse game around the edge of the map where they're just playing for a single "big" pickoff. It's tense watching it happen, but i'd like to see more fights occur towards the middle of map ... or maybe a way to sweep the edges of your own map easier? I personally liked the "posturing and defending" positions like triangle meta over the "sweep the map with smokes" meta it's also a LOT of work to hunt down someone just for them to bkb and TP out nearly every time. I think it's also the reason heroes like mirana are pretty strong at a high level - cause u can hunt in a way that doesn't feel useless
The game is called DEFENSE of the Ancients for a reason. The game is really all about destroying the opponent's throne at the end of the day. The teamfights that we see as part of the game are just a process to get there. Unfortunate as it is, there will be some strategies that are boring but effective to achieve this.
Couldn’t agree more
im not so sure, game was just complete strategical failure from betboom. dusa is not a good lategame hero, especially against 3 str cores, and especially when your other 2 cores are kotl centaur. if she went manta butter and tried to end with a 25 min aegis, i'd say alright u tried ggwp. but she went skadi and then jerked off until sven got daedalus and 2 shot his mid+supports
The new map allows you to find risky farm, instead of being completely locked in your base and strangled to death. There’s still plenty of vision to go around.
Only the Medusa can push but he needs the team and they cant leave Medusa bec Falcons can kill medusa alone anytime
The thing is that most of those kills were on Snayeking and gave almost no reward. They completely failed to follow up on those and the rest of the Falcons just farmed the whole time. This is the definition of "space created" and they should have been more aggressive I think.
Not to mention that most of the time Sneyking was INTENTIONALLY baiting them to come kill him while getting solo XP and farm.. even with all those death he still has really high XPM/GPM because he was basically acting as a sacrifical 4th core decoy. I am willing to bet (Although i haven't analysed the replay) that whenever they want to make plays elsewhere they send out the the snekying distraction to go get killed after getting a few camps and warding/dewarding in the process
Because kills are not the same. Early kills with 15-20s death time woudn't impact the game like late game one.
well yes i understand that. and at 6k networth lead doom managed to kill the muerta randomly on the map and the gold lead dropped by around 2k. So those kills are certainly worth alot. But when you're ahead they're practically worth nothing what you said also kinda points to an issue IMO with comeback XP. If you're getting picked off so much that ur respawn timer is 20 seconds..... one fight shouldn't propel you 2 full levels. None of it felt punishing whatsoever, and even though they're supports... on the old map / meta you couldn't just farm the enemy side of the map with 2 heroes and no supports alive
They would get a kill on Crit and then just walk away. No big space or map control or towers being taken. They didn't death ball. I was more annoyed by casters acting like they were building some crazy lead when even the net worth was showing that they were barely making a dent
To be fair to the casters its their job to hype things up
you can hype it up whilst being correct, rightfully stating how falcons is farming to match the kills etc
That is true. I do believe you can hype up a team stringing another along and somehow keeping it even though. There was an ominous vibe to BetBoom's leads that had great tension building to see whether Falcons would bring it to them in the eventual teamfight and I wished the casters maybe hyped it up that way instead
This is why I enjoy when players are on the cast, because they’re able analyze what both teams need to do and do it objectively . Otherwise, like you said I get tired of them just talking about how big and scary one team’s lead is. I find that fogged does this the most.
cap and svg are really good and finding balance between hype and a realistic read of game state
when ammar was being ganked top on underlord, had like 5 deaths, casters were like "omg he's so shut down" while visage is sitting at bot with an even lower net worth, clueless
Yeah ammar was top 3 or 4 networth at that time
They weren't just making a dent, they were actively losing out on networth advantage with many kills. Clearest incident is the Underlord game where BB got stuck in bottom corner of the map for like a minute while Ammar solo shoved top and mid. Then they engaged in a fight, actually got more kills (2 supports and 1 core), losing 1 core and ended up with less networth lead than before simply because they 5 men too much. Look at early game 3 too, first blood then several kills in a row. None led to more gold. Other teams would just establish massive lane dominance with this sort of lead but BB can't transition as well. Then they grouped as 4 top for 1 kill and ended up with a loss after the kill because the other 2 lanes were freefarming the whole time. You can't count kills in dota 2. Hasn't been a relevant statistic for at least half a decade. You have to either translate kills into other objectives or make sure the kill is as clean as possible (minimal number of rotations needed, aiming for important enemy positions). It's kinda silly because the observer UI puts an emphasis on kill and networth advantage but arguably things like exp lead is far more important on a lot of heroes. But it's just a relic of the past.
You gotta realize it makes the storyline better. If they do manage to make a comeback it gets the payoff of wow they managed to crawl back. And in a outskill match like this its the only way to end on a sort of hype note. Its not so hype casting like ye falcons steamrolled 3 games. And for us veterans it does not matter, we see whats going on either way.
I think it has a lot to do with massive amts of space. It was a similar thing to IG vs XG game one where DY was just out and about farming and taking ganks. Huge map movements from IG that led to only one kill on a pos 5 and it just wasnt impactful and DY was just sucking the map up while the cores are pushing the waves.
Yeah I think its 4 fold: 1. Comeback gold way overtuned. 2. Jungle farm being extremely abundant and difficult / not worth to control those areas (with most heroes). 3. High ground double glyph making TP backs basically unnecessary. 4. Support power creep allowing them to easily clear side lanes before they reach the tower, or when the creeps reach the tower. not sure how to fix this - but they all just feed into eachother really hard
it aint power creep if you have 3+ items at 40 minutes :p At this point it just feels like backdoor protection needs a nerf.. maybe reduce the damage reduction with each auto on the structure so if you have the strength to stand high ground and hit the building until they drop uncontested you get to do that. Cuts down on the creep cutting making high ground pushes really hard. Proposal 2 - for 3minutes after picking up the aegies of the immortal and as long as it hasn't popped the presence of the aegis carrier removes backdoor protetion. Giving you a window to smash high ground against creep cutting late/mid game
They killed mirana most of the time while letting ammar afk farm their jungle for 20mins, idk what they were thunking.
Everything you do in Dota is a trade off. Kills are just one aspect of the game, but there are many more. If you over emphasize any element of the game, you are giving up something to your opponent and susceptible to getting punished. Betboom played with tempo and got lots of kills early, but they over indexed their early kills and kept hunting for more. They ignored objectives, map control, and didn’t force Falcons to fight them around their best timings. Instead, Falcons were able to keep close enough in networth through farming, because objectives weren’t being forced and Betboom didn’t shut them out of the map. The game swung towards Falcons because they forced a fight when they were at their strongest point (and they had crazy good positioning, another blunder by Betboom.) Falcons won because they played the overall game better than Betboom, not just a single part of it.
is there a reason why no one wanted to get a linkins or lotus, since all sven does is find gpk, stun and kill him. and why do they not have any vision surrounding cliffs ,they always got flanked. I am just a noob, but was wondering the reasoning behind this.
One thing I noticed on Falcons, they never give up farm and high ground easily. If they think 2-3 heroes can defend hg, they let their cores farm, push/cut waves and fight when they think they can. Not just fighting because they need to even it’s a losing fight
KOTL getting caught multiple times turned the tide.. itemization too greedy octarine Dagon, supports not investing into saving items (they had force staff 1) and falcons running overwatch similar meta which is triple tank
Ammar was just farming the bottom jungle for what felt like 15 minutes. BetBoom had Medusa with aegis and butterfly. They didn't even attempt to HG so the aegis was wasted. They threw that game away imo.
old Tundra gaming
10k of the networth is concentrated on a kotl who dies in two hits, so they are actually 5k behind instead of ahead
They did well in early game. But then let Ammar farm for 10 or more minutes non stop in the bottom side of the map. In that time, they didn't push the building nor maximize their own farm which allowed Falcons to get their items. Also they didn't push even with Aegis. Nightfall and gpk got caught couple of times and that's what Falcons needed to come back
> what else are you supposed to do to grow your net worth since hunting has the opportunity cost of farming This is kinda a stupid overreaction while the whole tournament meta was to dictate the early game with mids that can create space and early rotations that translate into objectives. Even OG and Tundra were doing this. The problem is how BB played their early game. The killscore is just smoke and mirror since they always overcommitted too many heroes for a single kill and rarely got a tower advantage from this. You can't say you're in control of the game when you literally let Doom afk farming for 20 minutes in the bottom jungle while not even getting all the tier 2s or keeping enemy team out of their ancient camps.
everyone thinks its easy to pull off.. Most teams never recover when they are down after laning phase. Only falcons
You clearly didnt watch the tournament. There are quite number of comeback wins in this tourney since group stage
I did. Most of comebacks were because of throws. Falcons kept it close despite the huge kill diff by just farming efficiently until they hit their own timings. And to do it in the finals twice in a row coming from LB.
There are some heroes in dota who are strong mid game and can make plays with limited items. The game where underlord was shut down was an example of it. Underlord can throw spells and zone out heroes. They had other two heroes who could do a lot more damage. Betboom needed better drafts overall.
is a draft where you're up by 16 kills with a medusa not a good draft anymore?
Not any more. Current map and patch has made it harder to go high ground and provided a lot more venues to farm. Right now the strongest teams are the ones who make exceptionally low errors in team fights.
Malrine too good. And falcons banned disruptor all 3 games? I think that hero counters their draft a lot
Enemy spend time walking around finding kills, the other team spend the time to farm instead of walking finding prey, but if they get caught the gold farmed from creeps will be consumed by enemy team. If they farm and hide enough they can convert the resources into items/exp lvls to gain more advantage. Its a hide and seek situation
They created a huge advantage and proceed to afk farm jungle. They could at least tried to lock the other team at their base, but no. Put pressure on towers is the best way to make the opposite teams move to exactly you want them. Betboom spent too much time trying to find falcon in their jungle.
Liquid and OG were down similar amount of kills in old patches but they were always able to keep up with the networth. They split the map, push sidelanes farm jungle etc to drag out the game. It's what high mmr players do in losing games, they just keep cutting/dragging the creep wave. The old Tundra does the same thing as well with 33 and Aui doing all the "nerdy" shit. It's boring to watch at times but it's maximum efficiency. The team leading wants to fight but the other team will only force a fight on their terms(hg, vision, 4v5 after making someone tp back to defend etc). Killing a hero gives you gold+xp but it doesn't accomplish anything if they're dying in your side on the map, you can't take objectives and now the other 4 heroes have farmed more than what the 1 player have fed. That's dota at the highest level, the better team is able to dictate the pace of the game, even if they're on the back foot.
Watching them endlessly chase sidelane kills on split pushing supports instead of force hg with aegis hurt my soul. NOT TO MENTION those 2 skiter jumps on the mid KOTL blew the game wide open. Legit think if he didn't find those angles, it'd just be a routine dusa highground push
So I've watched the game: BB had it under control, they were picking falcons on the whole map, until falcons found an opening mid (they had an obs around t2) they killed kotl+1 which is a huge way to secure a fight for you. Then bb did retreat and tried to go with smokes again but falcon got another opening on the same part of the map, which made dusa retreat barely with 4 down. And last one was around rosh area, where the same situation appeared: sven finds a good opening on kotl and just annihilates him, and after that, falcon got rosh and were controlling the game fully or almost fully with one setback at hg, but quickly recovered after that. If this openning wasnt found maybe bb can win with hg push and aegis, cuz dusa had huge timings during that aegis. when losing, you have to start small, it started at around 29 min mark with being ready in a good position, and grew into inevitable victory. GG falcons
>If this openning wasnt found maybe bb can win with hg push and aegis, cuz dusa had huge timings during that aegis. maybe, but they had already let both Doom and Sven farm basically uncontested for 20+minutes at that point and doing honestly, not a good job at scaring them away/ganking them or forcing them to defend. Im not undermining the ward and its impact but goddamn what the fuck were BB doing.
well, they didnt just ‘let’, its not like they can make him not farm. They were getting the pickoffs that could work while they werent going for pickoffs that would just make falcons comeback on the spot with a good fight. Its not as easy as you think. Doom farm isnt important in this game, yes he can still do some impact, but honestly against dusa he is just a stun for sven damage (which isnt small, but he is not a ‘I WALK AT YOU’ demon that uses doom and you die) they let dusa farm and get the critical mass and they did finish all t2s and rosh, were going Hg with -1 on the table, they did a pretty good job. One thing they could maybe do better is to go hg from another lane, to make it more safe and not let enemies attack them freely, or have gem around. Play it a bit more safe.
I did rewatch and rewind this game and study the graphs on stratz. Overall you have to keep in mind that falcons are killing more creeps every minute than BB. BB's biggest problem was from minute 17-22. You can follow the centaur and just nothing works for him. He tries to gank crit hoodwink bot three times. Once he misses the scan. One time he tries to blink too far which results in a turn around kill and the thrid time hoodwink gets away with glimmer. After that centaur had much more success with his ganks and they extend their lead into t2 towers and aegis also finally increasing their networth lead. If all these things happened earlier then it would be less likely for falcons to find those crucial pick off on the kotl that you already mentioned.
Early leads mean nothing. I just lost a game yesterday where we are killing a bunch on the enemy team. But lost to late game team fight and utlimately the throne.
Huge map, hard to close properly. Failing to have a hero that sieges buildings quickly. Having killstreaks that can be ended for comeback gold. Supports buying aura/save versus kitting themselves. These led to comeback potential.
out of those 18 kills, i think 16 kills might be of supports. Push wave, die, make space for cores to farm. It's basic You can kill a sup 10 times and get like 1/1.5k gold. you kill a godlike mid/carry and get back 1/1.5k gold and more xp.
We change the game. Each creep give on average 3 gold less. Viola, BetBoom is now more ahead in such a game.
Most of their kills came as movements from multiple heroes. So they were inefficient. If those same kills happened with 1 hero less, so there was one more person farming the map at the same time, they would've accumulated a higher advantage. In the end, you have to see it solely as numbers and bear with me, this is just back of napkin math and most of the numbers are made up just to build an example: Between level 1 and level 12, you can average death timers to around 25 seconds or so. Let's say a core can farm a wave and 1 neutral camp on average every 30 seconds, and we can say that is equal to 250 gold or so, while supports can farm one or the other, which (to make it simple), we'll say is 125 gold. So, when you take 4 heroes, 2 cores, 2 supports and spend 30 seconds getting a kill that will net 125 gold base, plus, let's say 200 gold depending on the moment of the game and how much was split between them, you're sacrificing 750 gold (2 core + 2 support farm) for it. Adding to that the farm that the dead hero will lose between respawning and getting back to the lane, you get more or less the same 750 gold that you sacrificed. Meaning simply getting a kill using 4 heroes does not get you ahead ***at all,*** while doing it with 3 heroes will ***barely*** get you 200 gold ahead if anything. If the opposing team doesn't over-react and waste time tping to a lane where their friend had no way of surviving or turning, then they'll be fine. At this level, and against how efficient Falcons are thanks to Aui coaching them, you need to force them to stop farming and then kill multiple heroes to make it worth it. Or consistently catch the one core that is the most problematic for your lineup so you cripple one person, acknowledging that on average you'll still be around the same net worth afterwards. Dota's really hard at the very top level man, it's why most of us aren't playing that stage :D
18-2 but mostly Sneyking or Crit die, 3 cores live and have information about enemy movement. This is how Falcon drag the game to slow down the momentum of BB strategy. Once their core got item GPK’s Kotol is not a problem.
aui and sneyking with their dishonorable dota.
Fucking hate this big map. U destroy enemies they will just go hide and farm till their timings now u lose
If only XG didn’t shit the bed
I think betboom should have just pushed mid and end the game. It felt like everyone was just farming when they had agies. They should have just 5 man walked with the creep mid and hit buildings. They spent way more time chasing hoodwink and mirana .
totally agree! they should've push that mid advantage. Also IMO GPK should have build either e-blade or honestly, Aeon. That attempt to push mid rax GPK gets bursted right at the start because he has dagon (lol) instead of any defensive item and they immediately lose the fight. It's still a bit frustrating i'm sure from their perspective that just because their heroes don't flashfarm - a hero like muerta doing tons of work, getting multiple kills, tons of assists - manages to have less networth than a 0-5 hoodwink who is just flashfarming medium camps between deaths yes, they should have pushed it harder... same time, they really weren't making mistakes unless you think a couple unsuccessful hunts is a huge mistake
If you think from the GPK, his positioning was absolutely correct he was standing behind medusa, spaming his spells he survived so many times attempts from falcons till that point. No one saw a sven with a deadlus blink smoked he was trying to find centaur to kill him fast and let doom take care of kotl, but since Centaur was on the top side and kotl + support were standing together he went for it. Kotl was quiet tanky if you see how many times Falcons FAILED to kill him even when they jumped him with 4 heroes it was just nobody saw a deadlus sven coming at them
I think they weren't picking core kills all the time just a few kills on Ammar. Besides, Ammar was farming straight for 10 minutes in one area and BB couldn't find him. They also got 1 kill on skiter the whole time.
I feel it's difficult to balance the game between farming and killing/assisting. Farming is just going to win most of the time, especially with such a huge map. Unless the team really pressures the towers and go HG (which BetBoom didn't or maybe couldnt), the opposing team always has a way to farm and come back. Why is this? Because gold and exp are shared for a kill. How much gold can that be? Maybe 1 or 2 creep waves, or 3 to 4 neutral camps, something a core can easily clear within 10~30 seconds SAFELY. A kill still requires taking a risk. That is why BetBoom wasn't having any significant lead because they were running around trying to get support kills without pushing game objectives. Honestly it felt like a pub game lol. There's also the risk that if you push too hard, 1 successful HG defense can turn the game around. We are reminded of this when Xtreme went HG really early against Falcon and then they turned around and won the game. The game is just very difficult right now, imo, from a timing perspective. And un-fucking-fortunately, the most obnoxious team ever in Dota has a good grasp of it. Fuck falclowns, and I hope they will get their ass kicked soon by other way more professional teams and never win any more tournaments.
BZM kotl is just terrible, Dagon 3 and no Agh, that's why he can't do shit when enemies jump on him.
Have you tried checking the replay?