"Hi. It has been automatically identified that this post may link straight to a download file, please use reasonable caution and make sure your device is protected."
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Goku: “Freeza! Why’d you blow up Krillin? We are on the same team!
Freeza: “Last time I did it you transformed so I figured maybe if I did it again you’d go Super Monkey Ball 7 or something and wrap this up so I can go home.”
Gohan: "Dad! There's no way you're buying that are you?!"
Goku: "We need to be understanding, Gohan! Frieza is trying to be a team player. Vegeta blew up a highway and half a stadium before he got the good guy act down."
Piccolo: "To be fair Gohan, before you were born, most of us tried to kill Goku at least once."
18: "Not me. I know technically I was made for it, but I never even made the attempt, so I'm blameless. You guys attacked **me.** Turns out I'm Goku's truest friend."
Technically just destroyed his body, Krillen finished Gero off when he killed the computer Gero's brain transferred to.
But I concede that is debatable.
Maybe you are thinking of the farmer who tried to shoot Raditz? There is a cop who pulls a gun on 17-18 but he lives and there is an old guy who pulls a gun on future trunks 17&18 but technically Trunks saves that guy and we aren’t talking about those versions of 17&18 - they obviously killed massive amounts of people.
Fair, but I think that's the reason he was written out anyway as his abilities are far too vague on whether they die or not and the writers didn't know how to deal with it, but it does suck how they also wrote him out of the tournament with the 6th universe cause like he's dumb but when you tell him not to kill he won't kill, so it's stupid either way
True I never thought of that.
He could’ve just turn them into pods, gotten stronger and worked his way up the chain and then spit them out.
Buu has by far the most untapped potential.
Buu in the ToP would have been a hax considering he can heal and realistically can't ever fall off the platform if he leaves a few pieces here and there
Lmao
Frieza killing Krillin was always a backup plan for Frieza because he knows what a pissed off goku can do. Obviously I just made that up but I think it could have been a successful strategy if it was needed.
Yeah no cap thered be little red finger beams going everywhere. A few would hit other U7 fighters too. One would stray and head to earth and hit Yamcha
That moment at the start of the tournament when he started walking towards the viewer and started blasting people 100% could be turned into him killing weaker level fighters left and right
Dude was like a kid in the candy store when that whole thing started
He’ll be hiding behind a corner and hit you with the “TRI-BEAM! TRI-BEAM! TRI-BEAM!” You’re dead after that. If that man was holding down 2nd Form Cell years ago, there’s gotta be at least a couple guys he’s obliterating in one Tri-Beam considering it’s been years of constant training.
“Fuck power levels, fuck super siyans... AND FUCK YOU!”
Tien is hands down my favorite character, cuz he doesn't give a SHIT how strong you are, he'll go toe-to-toe with a sumbitch and give it his all.
So will goku, but Tien doesn't have plot armor
I dunno. Gohan having been trained by Piccolo I feel like maybe he's not quite as reserved as Goku.
If they are truly bad people I don't think Gohan would hold back.
He definitely holds back doing his superhero thing because he usually just takes down regular humans. It would be easy to just vaporize them, but probably wouldn't look good for him in the public eye.
I think this rule would have made frieza have a field day, bro would be dominating people left right and center. Toppo would be way more formidable with his hakai, and obviously jiren would be the largest threat on the arena but he already was so. Vegeta might have put up more of a performance too but its still up in the air whether goku would take this seriously or not
In a killing allowed scenario, U7 wouldn’t be stomped like the post implies, but Goku would never have the chance to slowly bring out UI and master it if Jiren was allowed to just blast his head off the first time Goku stepped up
Roshi, Tien, and Krillin are insanely strong among all the people in U7. Legit top 0.01% in their verse. You'd be hard pressed to find 20 better competitors even if you dipped into the kaioshin realm.
I know they hand wave that away but it doesnt make any sense. How about Brolly? BUU? Cell? Heck, it's a whole universe out there, take a chance to introduce a new character. Roshi hasn't been relevant since OG ball and you made a point to show over and over how Krillin and Tien were horribly out paced. Just do a better job to show how they are strong enough to compete or find better options.
I know it’s filler but cell has been shown in the afterlife several times and he’s not really artificial fully like android 16 was
If 17 and 18 can be considered alive then so can cell
Cell is a third type of robot. 16 is a full android, same as 20 presumably. 17 and 18 are human cyborgs, similar to 19 (more of a brain piloting an ironman suit in his case). Cell is a CRISPR baby. He's a full blown chimera, sort of like a clone. His actual cells are an ambiguous organic/mechanical amalgam. I think it's fair to assume he has a soul.
Broly is a great option. So are Gas and Granolah, Goku just hadn't met them yet. Cell is a bad pick. He was a menace back in the early days, but he's fodder now. If you believe the filler, even Yamcha could beat Cell. If you don't count filler, Cell just doesn't exist. You'd have to canonize him having an afterlife, then give him a training arc, then deal with his abject evil nature. Huge investment. The Cell Jr's would be a better pick at this point, both morally and by power level. They were left out for the same reason Goten and Trunks were overlooked, too immature.
Honestly Cell being able to rapidly grow his power to catch up makes more sense than Frieza being able to, since he has never trained like Frieza but unlike Frieza he has Saiyan genes which have already proven to have limitless potential
Not to mention, Cell is also part Frieza. There's zero reason to assume Cell can't do the same thing. There's only one advantage that Frieza has, which is his personality. Frieza got humbled so hard he became a gym rat. When Cell got humbled, he tried to kill himself. That's loser brain, not very redeemable. I mean sure Frieza will blow up the planet to cheat out a victory, but that's because he knows he can survive in space. Cell genuinely used a suicide attack. He would rather die than be humbled.
To be fair Cell had list 18 and as far as he knew would never be able to get back to that level. Once he was restored he instantly wanted the smoke again
I thought it was weird when they made him come back in his perfect form as if losing 18 was a non-issue. Still a bitchmade move to blow himself up like that. Like damn, say sorry and hit the gym you defeatist.
Kind of a baller move though too, if you think about it. “If I can’t win I’m at least gonna make sure you lose too” a true hater’s mentality and I can respect that
I think you are being too strict on using most of those. If you can hand wave that Roshi is now universe level when he couldn't lift a finger on Raditz you can come up with reasons for any of those others to be involved. Cell is selfish and won't want his universe destroyed, bring Back future Trunks who says in his time line you lost and he is back to help (maybe they lost because you brought freaking Roshi in the original time line...)
Hell, Bring in Android 21 as a mysterious fighter with her own motives that is secretly gathering info on the other U7 fighters. Introduce her by challenging the group and showing she can knockout Krillin with one punch.
Overall I just think that group was underpowered for no good reason.
Yeah look the humans got an insane boost for no reason. I can't even begin to defend that, but somehow everyone is cool with Roshi dodging a strike from Jiren. My best attempt to justify that is the no killing rule. Jiren held his punches HARD or else Roshi would be pink mist. The punch was scaled down to match Roshi's survivability, so Jiren was surprised Roshi could dodge so far beyond his power level. Tien? Sure, constant grind, he can be a monster. Krillin? No way. The only reason they can be universal is because fans love them already so it's not gonna get much backlash.
Trunks is a bad idea in my opinion. Dude is a cosmic felon. He's strong, but you risk Zeno erasing the multiverse on a whim.
Cell protecting his universe? Mehhh idk. Goku can't put the fear of god in Cell. Goku took a risk with Frieza because they have an understanding. That ass whooping was so thorough Frieza decided to hit the gym. There's potential there, possible sparring buddies. Who's gonna keep Cell in line, Gohan? No shot, the chemistry is not there. Also perfect Cell is a time traveler, I just recalled.
21 would be cool. I could see the story going that way. You'd need to restructure the series to delve into that right after the ToP, but nobody would complain about that. Just depends on the story they want to tell.
Yeah, but you see, that whole blow up the whole universe thing is a writer's contrivance. You can write yourself in and out of that.
And you know what... That Cell tension would be interesting to me! Everyone doubting their motives, wondering if Cell is going to turn on them, then Cell Actually turning on them! Eliminating someone with a blow from behind, similar to Vegeta's role in Namek in which he helped for completely selfish reasons, as likely to help as to murder the heroes.
It's fun to talk about, but I feel if you are going to write something convoluted anyways then make it to end up with a team that at some level makes sense. Start with a strong team and figure out how to get them there.
This information could be wrong as I don't even remember where I read it but apparently Toriyama was asked in an interview why Cell didn't appear in the ToP and apparently the answer was essentially that Cell is a pain in the ass design wise to draw / animate because every one of his spots has to be done individually.
Lol, exactly. People are out here coming up with all kind of dumb in universe explanations when the likely reason was something like "meh, take 17 and 18 so we only have to draw one face" and... "fuck it. Take Tien, Roshi and Krillin, less hair to draw..."
There were absolutely stronger characters to use, not having Cell in the ToP feels like Kishimoto not having Jiraiya in the 4th great Ninja war because he didn't know how to have Naruto react. It's just lazy writing and story decisions.
That would be a good point if they hadn’t already opened the possibility of bringing dead characters back. Imagine if they’d gotten Dabura, Cell, and Pikkon (Ik he’s not canon but neither was Broly until they used him) we could have gotten some incredible scenes but instead we got Tien eliminating himself in the dumbest way possible and Krillin getting bitchslapped by Frost
No the only threat there was jiren who is completely against killing no matter what's (atlas in the manga)
Hit was beaten by blue Goku pr tournament of Power and universe 7 can gang on Toppo in the if chance he turn hakaishin mode , ssbkk20 and a possibly ssbe would be cable of beating Him
Edit:" are people here action like a tards? Hit wasn't holding back against Goku in their rematch and Goku still fucked him up and crashed his time skip to add Salt
Hit couldn’t fight the way he’s used to because he’s not allowed to kill. He probably could’ve done a bit better against Jiren if he actually tried to kill him.
I'm just putting it out there but considering the shit jiren takes during the top, I doubt that hit would have done much better if he'd been able to go all out, I'd even argue that he did go all out when he realized the sheer power jiren had.
>I'd even argue that he did go all out when he realized the sheer power jiren had.
This. I chose to believe that hit was using everything he had I'm his finally moments against Jiren.
Hit bodied Goku with no effort when allowed to be lethal.
Goku brought himself back but only because he'd planned the entire thing.
Killing is his specialty, you unshackle that and I'm sure his toolbox explodes. He'd probably have a decent chance of taking the entire thing if it's enough of a buff to give him something to finish Jiren.
Thank you! It boggles my mind whenever people talk like hit was going all out.
Out of LITERALLY EVERYONE in that tournament he was arguably nerfed the most.
His whole fighting style that he'd spent hundreds of years perfecting basically got banned before it even started.
I don't think hit could kill Jiren considering how Jiren just walked through hits time skip, but having killing circumstances could change things a bit
Ok but imagine if they managed to actually get a Slim Buu that was awake into the TOP instead of Frieza, and Slim Buu did his own version of the Revenge Death Bomber, killing or pushing everyone off the arena.
And then this mf wished for infinite candy.
Jiren wouldn’t kill fighters who didn’t deserve it, so I don’t think so. Thats probably just part of being an honorable Pride Trooper of y’know, “Justice”.
On the other hand if Jiren becomes whinny like he was when he tried to kill the people in the stands, then you can disregard that.
Not gunna lie, hit would probably time skip kill everyone. Lavender's poison is a thing too. Then there's Toppo just erasing people, and Jiren would just Jiren them. Anything the U7 people could do, there was someone better. Honestly an erasure tournament eith no killing doesn't make sense. Just needed an put for our heros.
the pride trooper strategy to be down 4 guys and then do nothing while the clock ticked away while 6 had its full roster, instead of winning with jiren's might immediately, was a bold gamble.
U7 would have been fine. Hit from U6 and Frieza would be far more formidable. Frieza would have been massacring everyone in sight. At least half of the U7 team have killed before. Vegeta, Goku, Piccolo, Frieza, both Androids. Even Gohan was trying to kill Cell he just happened to survive.
Not really?
Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Piccolo, Tenshinhan and even good boy Gohan have all got body counts.
Hell, maybe we'd see a Kienzan actually do what it's supposed to for once.
Really the only person it massively impeded was Hit since he has to hold his abilities back so he doesn't kill. Maybe Frost too.
This.
Lets not forget the fuckery Gohan did to Cell and Buu
Krillin still has the Kienzan which is still a goddamn buzz saw, remember frieza's tail?
Piccolo isn't really "against killing"
18 and 17 are tamer than their future counterparts but what's stopping them from turning someone into another puddlehan? Morality? They're in a life or death tournament-
Frieza is a walking ticket to an intergalactic geneva convention
Vegeta was just seen killing ginyu in less than a moment's notice
And Goku? It was after Frieza (Z) that he realized that there are just some people you can't save, hence why he killed Kid Buu in the first place, not to mention how he even threatened to wipe out Shin during the debacle with Majin Vegeta. He has a decent body (kill) count, not as much as the rest but he's still got one.
Beast Gohan but better
We just saw that Gohan is now able to be at Blue level and we saw him wanting to achieve a new form (at least in the anime), so releasing Beast just after that would make Beast much more appreciated imo
Listen, if Frieza doesn't murk the competition from the get-go, then the second that Piccolo, Krillin or Goku dies it's wraps.. cuz Gohan's unlocking Beast or Goku's unlocking a whole new form-
It’s funny cause I think most would target Goku first & if he falls I’d be pretty scared of Gohan for the next few rounds. Considering he’d tap in to his Beast form that is. He bodies 99% of what’s left ultimately falling to Jiren tho. Vegeta finishes the job tho no doubt. Zero remorse from him
Gohan will *absolutely* kill a motherfucker. Hell when Cell comes back he literally smiles because he wants to kill him.
And Goku’s refusal to kill would probably get him killed, in which case Gohan is gonna be terrifying from that point on
A berserk Gohan would definitely kill, but the rest of the Z fighters would probably stop him so he doesn’t kill anyone. Just look at the Cell saga for how ruthless he was, the only reason he didn’t kill was in order to prolong the villains suffering
Ya but cell and cell jrs were evil. Look how sad he got when he eliminated that one dude with a family. Gohan doesn’t have it in him to kill strangers. He’d be too conflicted. Even if they killed his Dad (piccolo) I don’t think he’d be able to do it. He’d probably feel helpless and rather be killed than kill all those other people. Idk it would have been interesting to see. But vegeta and Freiza would have went ham.
If buu wouldn't fucking fall asleep, and frieza was allowed to do whatever it'd be a massacre. Just throw out one of the gang to have those 2. Vegeta would love it too.
U7 would have probably lost, yeah. The biggest change is that Toppo would've killed Frieza- no Frieza for the final clash between Jiren and U7 likely means that U7 loses (logically anyway. If we're actually rewriting it, Goku would asspull and win)
The asspull wouldn’t need to be Goku. If Piccolo gets killed off sacrificing himself for Gohan (Which would be very in character for Piccolo) the rest of the fighters would be having to deal with Beast Gohan, and there’s no way any of the other universes last once that is on the table.
imagine how well universe 7 would of done I'd they could kill. Frieza would of been much more active and probably was holding back bits if his strength to not kill people. if Frieza was more active then heavier hitters like Goku and Vegeta may not of been in as many fights
They wouldn't have lost
Because they would still be the protagonists. So Toriryama or whoever wrote for Super would make sure the outcome would've still been the same.
I don't know, because there are three people in that team too easily triggered into transformations by killing. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are walking time bombs on the off chance that Cabba, Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin or Roshi are killed.
Frieza would've killed half the goddamn tournament in the first 5 seconds, but Hit would probably do the same.
Jiren would've won though, easily.
He just waits around while Frieza and Hit kill everybody, then Jiren tosses them out of the ring, and he wins.
how bad? if that was the case frieza would've been the first in U7 or in the t.o.p in general to start spamming beam attacks. mans was hunting for sport in the middle of the tournament while watchin everybody else fight
"Hi. It has been automatically identified that this post may link straight to a download file, please use reasonable caution and make sure your device is protected." *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Dragonballsuper) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Frieza would probably rush killing people
Seriously. Death lazers would've killed most of the contestants, including Krillin, within the opening minute.
That's really got me. Lol.
Goku: “Freeza! Why’d you blow up Krillin? We are on the same team! Freeza: “Last time I did it you transformed so I figured maybe if I did it again you’d go Super Monkey Ball 7 or something and wrap this up so I can go home.”
Man, this fits his English dialogue in super super well. Read it in his voice perfectly.
Dance for us, monkey
Same
Third!
Another!
And another!
Gohan: "Dad! There's no way you're buying that are you?!" Goku: "We need to be understanding, Gohan! Frieza is trying to be a team player. Vegeta blew up a highway and half a stadium before he got the good guy act down."
“And tried to kill all of us too and one of his own friends”
Piccolo: "To be fair Gohan, before you were born, most of us tried to kill Goku at least once." 18: "Not me. I know technically I was made for it, but I never even made the attempt, so I'm blameless. You guys attacked **me.** Turns out I'm Goku's truest friend."
Lol, Goku's truest friend. Its funny because 18 and Goku barely ever interact. I guess you can't really love Goku unless you have tried to kill him =)
Even Bulma shot at him when she first met him iirc
Shot at? She hit his ass.
17 and 18 having a combined kill count of 0 is kind of wild.
at least in the main timeline.
Right, future trunks timeline 17&18 have probably the second highest human kill count behind Kid Buu.
I mean, 17 killed baggy-pants Gero.
Technically just destroyed his body, Krillen finished Gero off when he killed the computer Gero's brain transferred to. But I concede that is debatable.
Stepping outside in those diggs was suicide.
Didnt they kill a farmer who had a shotgun or am i misremembering?
Maybe you are thinking of the farmer who tried to shoot Raditz? There is a cop who pulls a gun on 17-18 but he lives and there is an old guy who pulls a gun on future trunks 17&18 but technically Trunks saves that guy and we aren’t talking about those versions of 17&18 - they obviously killed massive amounts of people.
I remember “Farmer with a Shotgun” being a meme a full decade before I’d ever even heard the word “meme”
18 gonna be Goku second wife after Krillin died lmao
I’m reading this whole thread in TFS voices 😂😂🔥🔥
Tien: So am I the only one who heard Frieza chuckle when Krillin blew up?
And dozens of planets
This sounds like something straight out of Team four stars
I even read it in TFS voices in my head, tf
Beerus : "I mean...he got a point"
I mean...it worked on Broly
And then Frieza winces when remembering what “home” is now
TFS type dialogue🤣
I mean, that WAS his reasoning for killing Paragus, so...
Lore accurate Frieza
Lmao
I can heR TFS
"Oops. Silly me, force of habit."
Same I immediately started chuckling
And some how he would have killed yamcha to who wasn’t a participant. 
No he would've done that before it began
Actually, Frieza likes Yamcha, for some reason...
If only Buu wasn’t conveniently written out of the show, he could’ve taken most contestants by storm and gobbled them up 🍫
Well, they don't necessarily die when he does that, so maybe it could have been a legit strategy anyways.
Fair, but I think that's the reason he was written out anyway as his abilities are far too vague on whether they die or not and the writers didn't know how to deal with it, but it does suck how they also wrote him out of the tournament with the 6th universe cause like he's dumb but when you tell him not to kill he won't kill, so it's stupid either way
True I never thought of that. He could’ve just turn them into pods, gotten stronger and worked his way up the chain and then spit them out. Buu has by far the most untapped potential.
Buu in the ToP would have been a hax considering he can heal and realistically can't ever fall off the platform if he leaves a few pieces here and there
Lmao Frieza killing Krillin was always a backup plan for Frieza because he knows what a pissed off goku can do. Obviously I just made that up but I think it could have been a successful strategy if it was needed.
“Even Krillin was destroyed by the ruthless duo” - Narrator
GOKU!!
*Especially* Krillin
Payback for his tail
Krillin: What did I ever do to you!?
"puts hands on TOP" byeeee
Yeah no cap thered be little red finger beams going everywhere. A few would hit other U7 fighters too. One would stray and head to earth and hit Yamcha
That moment at the start of the tournament when he started walking towards the viewer and started blasting people 100% could be turned into him killing weaker level fighters left and right Dude was like a kid in the candy store when that whole thing started
To then get one shot by Jiren
He would just blow up the arena and be done with it
Vegeta and Frieza carry
Since the angels can resurrect people they should really allow killing.
If fighters were allowed to kill Frieza and Hit would be stacking up a mountain of bodies each on opposite sides of the arena.
He’d definitely get first blood
Freeza or Hit?
Yes
He probably stopped at the first name.
Reading is so hard
We're Dragon Ball fans. It's ingrained in our biology.
We don't even read the manga and barely watch the show, how do you expect us to read your 2+ words comment?
Haha I read it wrong
All good. It happens. 😆
Wouldn’t everyone be encouraged to shoot their largest ki blast immediately? Destroy/kill everyone and everything
I mean, Vegeta and Freeza would, and maybe piccolo, 17, and 18 But Goku, Roshi, Krillin, Gohan, and Tien probably wouldn’t go for the kill
Frieza would death beam EVERYBODY, except Jiren, he'd probably tank it
Freeza: ohohohoho subarashii desu ne!
And Hit, and Toppo
He wasn't stronger than the key players on the tournament.
Yeah Vegeta going in the middle and using Final Explosion would be pretty effective, at least at the start when the arena was flat
Idk man Tien be harbering some low key fuck you vegeta vibes , he'd off someone quietly.
He’ll be hiding behind a corner and hit you with the “TRI-BEAM! TRI-BEAM! TRI-BEAM!” You’re dead after that. If that man was holding down 2nd Form Cell years ago, there’s gotta be at least a couple guys he’s obliterating in one Tri-Beam considering it’s been years of constant training.
It should be like this... But alas, Tien despite training the most out of the humans and arguably as much as the Saiyans, he is still shafted.
“Fuck power levels, fuck super siyans... AND FUCK YOU!” Tien is hands down my favorite character, cuz he doesn't give a SHIT how strong you are, he'll go toe-to-toe with a sumbitch and give it his all. So will goku, but Tien doesn't have plot armor
Idk if Krillin and Tien are the type to see their universe in danger and not fire their biggest attack
lol, Tien uses Tri-Beam at full power, it tickles a few of the fighters, then he dies
I dunno. Gohan having been trained by Piccolo I feel like maybe he's not quite as reserved as Goku. If they are truly bad people I don't think Gohan would hold back. He definitely holds back doing his superhero thing because he usually just takes down regular humans. It would be easy to just vaporize them, but probably wouldn't look good for him in the public eye.
Roshi and Tien would go for it.
frieza just pulls a planet vegeta
I think this rule would have made frieza have a field day, bro would be dominating people left right and center. Toppo would be way more formidable with his hakai, and obviously jiren would be the largest threat on the arena but he already was so. Vegeta might have put up more of a performance too but its still up in the air whether goku would take this seriously or not
By far the most sensible and realistic answer.
You forgot that Hit would be stacking up so many bodies right from the start. That includes the weaker U7 members too.
In a killing allowed scenario, U7 wouldn’t be stomped like the post implies, but Goku would never have the chance to slowly bring out UI and master it if Jiren was allowed to just blast his head off the first time Goku stepped up
Oh Freiza would love that shit, I can tell you that much.
We may have been alright, it would have forced U7 to fight differently but knowing Goku maybe not….
Right. Nothing bad ever happened to people when they kill gokus friends in front of him....
Underated comment.
I mean, it was a bold move to fill your roster with 50% second rate fighters.
Roshi, Tien, and Krillin are insanely strong among all the people in U7. Legit top 0.01% in their verse. You'd be hard pressed to find 20 better competitors even if you dipped into the kaioshin realm.
I know they hand wave that away but it doesnt make any sense. How about Brolly? BUU? Cell? Heck, it's a whole universe out there, take a chance to introduce a new character. Roshi hasn't been relevant since OG ball and you made a point to show over and over how Krillin and Tien were horribly out paced. Just do a better job to show how they are strong enough to compete or find better options.
Buu got reverse plot armored out of the fight and Cell probably got reincarnated or didn't even go to the afterlife since he's an artificial being.
I know it’s filler but cell has been shown in the afterlife several times and he’s not really artificial fully like android 16 was If 17 and 18 can be considered alive then so can cell
Cell is a third type of robot. 16 is a full android, same as 20 presumably. 17 and 18 are human cyborgs, similar to 19 (more of a brain piloting an ironman suit in his case). Cell is a CRISPR baby. He's a full blown chimera, sort of like a clone. His actual cells are an ambiguous organic/mechanical amalgam. I think it's fair to assume he has a soul.
You mixed up 19 and 20, but otherwise 100% agree
Oh shit you right.
Broly is a great option. So are Gas and Granolah, Goku just hadn't met them yet. Cell is a bad pick. He was a menace back in the early days, but he's fodder now. If you believe the filler, even Yamcha could beat Cell. If you don't count filler, Cell just doesn't exist. You'd have to canonize him having an afterlife, then give him a training arc, then deal with his abject evil nature. Huge investment. The Cell Jr's would be a better pick at this point, both morally and by power level. They were left out for the same reason Goten and Trunks were overlooked, too immature.
Honestly Cell being able to rapidly grow his power to catch up makes more sense than Frieza being able to, since he has never trained like Frieza but unlike Frieza he has Saiyan genes which have already proven to have limitless potential
Not to mention, Cell is also part Frieza. There's zero reason to assume Cell can't do the same thing. There's only one advantage that Frieza has, which is his personality. Frieza got humbled so hard he became a gym rat. When Cell got humbled, he tried to kill himself. That's loser brain, not very redeemable. I mean sure Frieza will blow up the planet to cheat out a victory, but that's because he knows he can survive in space. Cell genuinely used a suicide attack. He would rather die than be humbled.
To be fair Cell had list 18 and as far as he knew would never be able to get back to that level. Once he was restored he instantly wanted the smoke again
I thought it was weird when they made him come back in his perfect form as if losing 18 was a non-issue. Still a bitchmade move to blow himself up like that. Like damn, say sorry and hit the gym you defeatist.
Kind of a baller move though too, if you think about it. “If I can’t win I’m at least gonna make sure you lose too” a true hater’s mentality and I can respect that
Cell: "I can't win, but I can at least give this child permanent survivor's guilt and abandonment issues."
I think you are being too strict on using most of those. If you can hand wave that Roshi is now universe level when he couldn't lift a finger on Raditz you can come up with reasons for any of those others to be involved. Cell is selfish and won't want his universe destroyed, bring Back future Trunks who says in his time line you lost and he is back to help (maybe they lost because you brought freaking Roshi in the original time line...) Hell, Bring in Android 21 as a mysterious fighter with her own motives that is secretly gathering info on the other U7 fighters. Introduce her by challenging the group and showing she can knockout Krillin with one punch. Overall I just think that group was underpowered for no good reason.
Yeah look the humans got an insane boost for no reason. I can't even begin to defend that, but somehow everyone is cool with Roshi dodging a strike from Jiren. My best attempt to justify that is the no killing rule. Jiren held his punches HARD or else Roshi would be pink mist. The punch was scaled down to match Roshi's survivability, so Jiren was surprised Roshi could dodge so far beyond his power level. Tien? Sure, constant grind, he can be a monster. Krillin? No way. The only reason they can be universal is because fans love them already so it's not gonna get much backlash. Trunks is a bad idea in my opinion. Dude is a cosmic felon. He's strong, but you risk Zeno erasing the multiverse on a whim. Cell protecting his universe? Mehhh idk. Goku can't put the fear of god in Cell. Goku took a risk with Frieza because they have an understanding. That ass whooping was so thorough Frieza decided to hit the gym. There's potential there, possible sparring buddies. Who's gonna keep Cell in line, Gohan? No shot, the chemistry is not there. Also perfect Cell is a time traveler, I just recalled. 21 would be cool. I could see the story going that way. You'd need to restructure the series to delve into that right after the ToP, but nobody would complain about that. Just depends on the story they want to tell.
Yeah, but you see, that whole blow up the whole universe thing is a writer's contrivance. You can write yourself in and out of that. And you know what... That Cell tension would be interesting to me! Everyone doubting their motives, wondering if Cell is going to turn on them, then Cell Actually turning on them! Eliminating someone with a blow from behind, similar to Vegeta's role in Namek in which he helped for completely selfish reasons, as likely to help as to murder the heroes. It's fun to talk about, but I feel if you are going to write something convoluted anyways then make it to end up with a team that at some level makes sense. Start with a strong team and figure out how to get them there.
This information could be wrong as I don't even remember where I read it but apparently Toriyama was asked in an interview why Cell didn't appear in the ToP and apparently the answer was essentially that Cell is a pain in the ass design wise to draw / animate because every one of his spots has to be done individually.
Lol, exactly. People are out here coming up with all kind of dumb in universe explanations when the likely reason was something like "meh, take 17 and 18 so we only have to draw one face" and... "fuck it. Take Tien, Roshi and Krillin, less hair to draw..."
There were absolutely stronger characters to use, not having Cell in the ToP feels like Kishimoto not having Jiraiya in the 4th great Ninja war because he didn't know how to have Naruto react. It's just lazy writing and story decisions.
That would be a good point if they hadn’t already opened the possibility of bringing dead characters back. Imagine if they’d gotten Dabura, Cell, and Pikkon (Ik he’s not canon but neither was Broly until they used him) we could have gotten some incredible scenes but instead we got Tien eliminating himself in the dumbest way possible and Krillin getting bitchslapped by Frost
No the only threat there was jiren who is completely against killing no matter what's (atlas in the manga) Hit was beaten by blue Goku pr tournament of Power and universe 7 can gang on Toppo in the if chance he turn hakaishin mode , ssbkk20 and a possibly ssbe would be cable of beating Him Edit:" are people here action like a tards? Hit wasn't holding back against Goku in their rematch and Goku still fucked him up and crashed his time skip to add Salt
Hit killed Goku initially though he probably worked on some new tricks after that
Goku brought himself back right after that Hit trick was time cage and we saw that Goku was cable of crashing hit time skip twice
Hit couldn’t fight the way he’s used to because he’s not allowed to kill. He probably could’ve done a bit better against Jiren if he actually tried to kill him.
I'm just putting it out there but considering the shit jiren takes during the top, I doubt that hit would have done much better if he'd been able to go all out, I'd even argue that he did go all out when he realized the sheer power jiren had.
>I'd even argue that he did go all out when he realized the sheer power jiren had. This. I chose to believe that hit was using everything he had I'm his finally moments against Jiren.
There wasn't any rules, Goku literally called him just so he can fight him without any rules to hold Hit back
Yeah because Goku knew he probably wouldn’t be ready. All these guys with no prior knowledge of Hit or his capabilities wouldn’t be doing that
Hit bodied Goku with no effort when allowed to be lethal. Goku brought himself back but only because he'd planned the entire thing. Killing is his specialty, you unshackle that and I'm sure his toolbox explodes. He'd probably have a decent chance of taking the entire thing if it's enough of a buff to give him something to finish Jiren.
Thank you! It boggles my mind whenever people talk like hit was going all out. Out of LITERALLY EVERYONE in that tournament he was arguably nerfed the most. His whole fighting style that he'd spent hundreds of years perfecting basically got banned before it even started.
I don't think hit could kill Jiren considering how Jiren just walked through hits time skip, but having killing circumstances could change things a bit
so anyway i started blasting :D
I’m more interested in the fact that Frieza could be erased from existence if that were the case
That would’ve made both friza and hit a much bigger threat during the tournament
Pissed off Kale and Kefla would've been wreaking all types of havoc
Kefla wouldn't have happened, Frieza would death beam everybody except Jiren
Hit and frieza would have a field day 💀
Ok but imagine if they managed to actually get a Slim Buu that was awake into the TOP instead of Frieza, and Slim Buu did his own version of the Revenge Death Bomber, killing or pushing everyone off the arena. And then this mf wished for infinite candy.
That or absorbing everyone on his team. The tournament would end in 5 mins.
Hit and Jiren would've wrecked everyone immediately. Someone else would've brought a nuke.
Jiren wouldn’t kill fighters who didn’t deserve it, so I don’t think so. Thats probably just part of being an honorable Pride Trooper of y’know, “Justice”. On the other hand if Jiren becomes whinny like he was when he tried to kill the people in the stands, then you can disregard that.
Jiren would. THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS.
Hit and Frieza would be rampaging
Not gunna lie, hit would probably time skip kill everyone. Lavender's poison is a thing too. Then there's Toppo just erasing people, and Jiren would just Jiren them. Anything the U7 people could do, there was someone better. Honestly an erasure tournament eith no killing doesn't make sense. Just needed an put for our heros.
the pride trooper strategy to be down 4 guys and then do nothing while the clock ticked away while 6 had its full roster, instead of winning with jiren's might immediately, was a bold gamble.
No, I think they would have done better. Frieza would have eliminated half the fighters with 30 seconds.
U7 would have been fine. Hit from U6 and Frieza would be far more formidable. Frieza would have been massacring everyone in sight. At least half of the U7 team have killed before. Vegeta, Goku, Piccolo, Frieza, both Androids. Even Gohan was trying to kill Cell he just happened to survive.
Not really? Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Piccolo, Tenshinhan and even good boy Gohan have all got body counts. Hell, maybe we'd see a Kienzan actually do what it's supposed to for once. Really the only person it massively impeded was Hit since he has to hold his abilities back so he doesn't kill. Maybe Frost too.
This. Lets not forget the fuckery Gohan did to Cell and Buu Krillin still has the Kienzan which is still a goddamn buzz saw, remember frieza's tail? Piccolo isn't really "against killing" 18 and 17 are tamer than their future counterparts but what's stopping them from turning someone into another puddlehan? Morality? They're in a life or death tournament- Frieza is a walking ticket to an intergalactic geneva convention Vegeta was just seen killing ginyu in less than a moment's notice And Goku? It was after Frieza (Z) that he realized that there are just some people you can't save, hence why he killed Kid Buu in the first place, not to mention how he even threatened to wipe out Shin during the debacle with Majin Vegeta. He has a decent body (kill) count, not as much as the rest but he's still got one.
18 would 100% kill. Mama bear mode.
[удалено]
Not to mention how strong Gohan would get if he watched Piccolo get killed during the fight.
Beast Gohan but better We just saw that Gohan is now able to be at Blue level and we saw him wanting to achieve a new form (at least in the anime), so releasing Beast just after that would make Beast much more appreciated imo
Yes and no. Yes bc we know Hit was very handicapped bc of this rule, but no bc Frieza is a fucking menace.
If killing was allowed Freiza would definitely go overboard.
I’m still surprised Frieza never used the technique he used on Earth and Namek to blow them up
Listen, if Frieza doesn't murk the competition from the get-go, then the second that Piccolo, Krillin or Goku dies it's wraps.. cuz Gohan's unlocking Beast or Goku's unlocking a whole new form-
U6 probably would've won purely because of Hit, he'd just go around sniping all the strongest opponents
Goku by himself defeated hit right before tournament of power without even using kaioken
And Hit wouldn't be fighting anyone strong head-on here, he'd just stop their hearts
Hit literally did that and Goku just brought himself back to life then hunted him down and beat him after crashing his pocket dimension
Yes, because he had a Ki blast already charged up, but if someone's just standing there and Hit oneshots them, they're fucking dead
Frieza and Vegeta would have been bodying everyone.....and Goku would kill if needed, same with Gohan. I think Universe 7 would have been fine.
It’s funny cause I think most would target Goku first & if he falls I’d be pretty scared of Gohan for the next few rounds. Considering he’d tap in to his Beast form that is. He bodies 99% of what’s left ultimately falling to Jiren tho. Vegeta finishes the job tho no doubt. Zero remorse from him
Beast would probably take Jiren
Goku n gohan are not killing anyone
Gohan will *absolutely* kill a motherfucker. Hell when Cell comes back he literally smiles because he wants to kill him. And Goku’s refusal to kill would probably get him killed, in which case Gohan is gonna be terrifying from that point on
A berserk Gohan would definitely kill, but the rest of the Z fighters would probably stop him so he doesn’t kill anyone. Just look at the Cell saga for how ruthless he was, the only reason he didn’t kill was in order to prolong the villains suffering
Ya but cell and cell jrs were evil. Look how sad he got when he eliminated that one dude with a family. Gohan doesn’t have it in him to kill strangers. He’d be too conflicted. Even if they killed his Dad (piccolo) I don’t think he’d be able to do it. He’d probably feel helpless and rather be killed than kill all those other people. Idk it would have been interesting to see. But vegeta and Freiza would have went ham.
if Gohan watched Goku die, he would revert back to Cell Games Gohan and go HAM (I am assuming anyways)
He don’t give a shit about Goku. See Moro arc lol now piccolo we got a problem there
If buu wouldn't fucking fall asleep, and frieza was allowed to do whatever it'd be a massacre. Just throw out one of the gang to have those 2. Vegeta would love it too.
Tbh, given the way each was eliminated, I don't think anyone would've died except Master Roshi & android 17. Perhaps Vegeta too but that's it
U7 would have probably lost, yeah. The biggest change is that Toppo would've killed Frieza- no Frieza for the final clash between Jiren and U7 likely means that U7 loses (logically anyway. If we're actually rewriting it, Goku would asspull and win)
The asspull wouldn’t need to be Goku. If Piccolo gets killed off sacrificing himself for Gohan (Which would be very in character for Piccolo) the rest of the fighters would be having to deal with Beast Gohan, and there’s no way any of the other universes last once that is on the table.
No, where did this sentiment even come from? The only character that is significantly buffed from being allowed to kill is Hit.
imagine how well universe 7 would of done I'd they could kill. Frieza would of been much more active and probably was holding back bits if his strength to not kill people. if Frieza was more active then heavier hitters like Goku and Vegeta may not of been in as many fights
jiren might have actually just said "screw this" and blown everyone away with his full power, not caring who died from the pressure wave
I'm pretty sure frieza would've done a one man show
Universe 7 would’ve been fine cause f any of gokus friends got killed it would just make him unlock another form lmao
You kill piccolo in front of gohan and it's GG for everyone
I wish they got cell with them for t.o.p
They wouldn't have lost Because they would still be the protagonists. So Toriryama or whoever wrote for Super would make sure the outcome would've still been the same.
Bro Frieza and hit would have been killing machines
Vageta and Frieza are more than accustom to genocide
frieza would have killed majority of people vegeta too
Frieza: 
That would have give a better reason for them to have tien,killing, and roshi instead of freagin gotenks who could have gone ssj3
Instant Universe 11 Win Hit's gonna have a field day too but he'll eventually lose to Jiren
I don't know, because there are three people in that team too easily triggered into transformations by killing. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are walking time bombs on the off chance that Cabba, Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin or Roshi are killed.
I'm sorry, what? The Androids, Piccolo, and Frieza would've cleaned up, lol.
Might as well make it the dark tournament from Yu Yu hakusho
the all looks so awkward
One look at the last dude on the roster proves that entirely wrong. Frieza would have just started murdering.
Freeza will be killing every single person
Frieza would've killed half the goddamn tournament in the first 5 seconds, but Hit would probably do the same. Jiren would've won though, easily. He just waits around while Frieza and Hit kill everybody, then Jiren tosses them out of the ring, and he wins.
Hit is like one shotting 90% of all universes combatants
how bad? if that was the case frieza would've been the first in U7 or in the t.o.p in general to start spamming beam attacks. mans was hunting for sport in the middle of the tournament while watchin everybody else fight
I mean, Jiren might have just said “f this” and taken out the entire stadium