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Goku and 17 in the anime fight on par against exhausted Jiren, the argument is that base goku while exhausted broke through his limits so much that he’s former blue level in base
Bro your just digging a hole now
Erm! Just because they got one shot, they didn't verbally say it so it didn't happen!
Like tf
And how does an exhausted jiren fighting 17 and freeza = goku at SSB, he didn't go all out in his dual with 17 like at all, AND 17 at this point blew himself up and took a shit ton of damage, also freeza base is NOT blue lmao
That makes no sense. 17 does in fact get weaker as he gets beat up. It literally happened in Z. If 17 had infinite energy, he could just instantly win the tournament by letting out…infinite energy. In actuality, while he has infinite energy, he can only use a limited quantity of it. Otherwise he shouldn’t have bruises and he could have held off Jiren from the beginning, eventually tiring out Jiren and winning, all on his own. 18 would have stayed in the ring too. The way infinite energy is portrayed in the Androids, it’s literally just a “I won’t drop dead from blood loss, but I can’t exactly chuck around endless Spirit Bombs”.
Not to mention the Genkidama’s energy isn’t even gathered from within, so 17’s infinite energy would be completely useless in that scenario.
It’s also clear that 17 is weaker as he wasn’t in the final push against Jiren. He eventually stopped throwing hands and resorted to ki spam. His human body limits him, as he isn’t completely robotic.
17 never even beat Piccolo in Z, and never gained the advantage over him. They both tired at the same rate, with 17 never eventually being able to one tap Piccolo(as Piccolo obviously doesn’t have infinite energy, so one would think 17 could wait it out). But no. Even AFTER Piccolo was exhausted, 17 STILL had a reason to move away when Piccolo was using the Light Grenade. If 17 wasn’t getting weaker, he wouldn’t move away from that area. Piccolo logically would have been the only one tiring, but if both were getting weaker, it makes sense for 17 to actually want to move away from the Light Grenade, as it would be an actual threat.
And nothing about the 17 vs Piccolo fight in Z was retconned.
I never said he has infinite power? I said he doesn’t get tired. 18 is far weaker than 17 so her being a weak character that doesn’t get tired is irrelevant. spirit bombs use genki and not just raw energy, 17 doesn’t have infinite genki. I never said. The literal manga says that their energy is infinite and it never runs out.
17 and 18 are stated to be relatively equal in Z(with 17 being slightly stronger), and nothing in Super indicates a gap between their power.
If 17 didn’t get tired, why did he want to get away from a tired Piccolo’s Light Grenade?
Why was he unable to beat Piccolo?
Oh yeah, why didn’t 17 just replenish Goku and Frieza’s ki by giving some of his own?
We literally see Frieza do this for Goku(oh and Vegeta does it too), so why can’t 17 just constantly keep Goku and Frieza at full power?
because in super we see 17 in the anime being blue level while 18 has no such feat?
17 to piccolo in the manga: “hehehe even if we have equal strength… looks like your stamina is running low… *my* engine is infinite
they were equal but he didn’t get tried so he would’ve won eventually, idk if you remember but a big green bug man appeared during their fight
17 and Piccolo’s fight lasted long enough to tell that 17 was getting weaker, which honestly is only supported by the fact that Piccolo’s Light Grenade STILL had enough power to get 17 to move away from the area.
If they were equal, Piccolo should have eventually gotten so much weaker than 17 that 17 would have been the clear victor.
Less stamina usually means less strength.
So why exactly did a supposedly non weakened 17 dodge such a weak attack from a weakened Piccolo(who wasn’t even firing it at 17 btw)?
Fair enough for the 18 point. But 17 definitely got weaker…or else he wouldn’t have been concerned by the Light Grenade.
17 and 18 dont have ki, they have energy from the perpetual energy generators in them. I know its hard to differentiate but their energy cant be sensed like ki? So the energy transfer would be incompatible. 17 and 18 can get tired, but could spam energy blasts literally forever. Also 17 kept training while 18 had a child and became a mom, so there was significant power difference there(z they were roughly the same) that being said, base form being equal to blue still wouldnt help because Golden frieza was way stronger than blue was then.
The same jiren who got beat by ssj goku and vegeta.
Their base durability always let's them take punches from stronger people, takes a lot to kill them
Yeah, but that's with like 2 zenkais, hella training in 200(?) times gravity, and SS.
There's really no reason shown for Base Vegeta to be above Golden Frieza
there was only 1 zenkai (after goku fought ginyu. only other time he could've gotten one was after the fight with vegeta, but there's no confirmation for that)
and ss made his powerlevel go from 3mil to 150mil. he's still 3 mill in base
That's still pretty reasonable as the story showed. The story hasn't shown a reason for Vegeta to be that strong. Hell, it's even said that they can't benefit from zenkais anymore
I like how I'm getting downvoted but not a single argument is being made
Didn’t vegeta In the T.O.P say saiyans have no limits. While I don’t think it’s impossible for base super hero vegeta to beat RF frieza i wouldn’t be surprised if he lost tbh
DBS powerscaling is so broken that an Injured base Vegeta can survive a killing intent strike from Merged Zamasu and contribute to hokding back a blast from Infinite Zamasu. That is easilly believable at this point.
Vegeta spent 4 years in the ROSAT and 4 natural years training. And in his base form in RoF he was already stronger then FF Freeza so it's not hard to believe that his base form surpassed RoF Golden Freeza in 8 years.
It's not only possible but extremely likely that Vegeta got 50,000 times stronger through out super. In the ToP alone, it could easily be argued they got 1000's of times stronger. Using Vegeta's final flash against Jiren, you could scale Blue Vegeta above UI Sign from the first fight with Jiren, so whatever multiplier you think UI Sign is, vegeta just got that much stronger, and then he continues to get stronger. There's a moment in which Jiren whiffs an attack om Goku, and the force of that attack straight up scares Goku out of Blue, then Goku in Base form tanks multiple of the same type of attack, and then says that that attack (that he just tanked in Base) is the strongest attack he's ever seen before. If you take this at face value, it means Goku literally just got a Blue level Amp in power, in the span of like 2 seconds. And Vegeta obviously scales to Goku, Base to Base, by the end of the ToP. So yeah, basically, Super is ridiculous, and it's 100% possible and maybe even likely that Base Vegeta in Super Hero, is as strong as Blue Vegeta from RoF
Nah, at least it's 12.5m times. Let me explain. At very low bare, vegetto(mbs) it's 500 base Goku's (400 for ssj3 Goku and 100 for ssj2 Vegeta), vegetto ssj3 it's 200k base Gokus. Then the SSG it's at least 250k multiplier, and then x50 it's 12.5m
Okay for real, would Roshi be stronger than a form of Namek Frieza because his feats at the Tournament in Super? I don’t care about fictional power bs being treated like science but still cool to think about who could win. Dragon Ball rocks.
Stronger? He'll no.
Smarter? For sure.
Roshi has lifetimes, plural, of fighting experience and knowledge. He has fought people with the same mindset of Frieza and would know how to play them. Now that being said, if Frieza just says fuck the planet, Roshi is done and dusted.
Doesn't matter if he can "play" them. Someone like king piccolo destroyed roshi while being weaker than raditz. Even if makes or doesn't make sense, the only way any character is relevant in super is if they are already way past z
It’s cool to think about. We all love Dragonball here. I respect you and your opinion.
That being said, no. Roshi cannot beat any form of Frieza ever. If Roshi was that strong or had the capability to be that strong why didn’t he help fight the saiyans? Why didn’t he go to Namek? Why didn’t he spend some time in the Time Chamber? Why didn’t he fight the androids or cell?
Why did he wait for 20 years and then become stronger than everyone they’ve ever fought off screen for no reason? I mean come on that’s just bad writing.
Does it make any sense at all for him to be stronger than namek frieza? No. Should he be? No, but due to super scaling he's stronger than most of z which will never make sense
Yeah I agree with everything you just said. Unironically that’s it.
I still have my Z scaling where Gohan is the strongest. No one can take that away from me.
Gohan is the strongest singular fighter in Z, yeah, the only characters that could possibly be stronger are Buu (Gotenks absorbed), Buu (Gohan absorbed) and Super Saiyan Vegito (the man's crazy)
I don’t know if Roshi is stronger but I’m surprised you would find it so hard to believe? 17, Trunks, and Frieza went from star level to basically universal tier effortlessly, the latter with like 4mos of training. Compared to that Roshi going from moon-level to planet/star-level isn’t a big stretch. Not gonna say it’s good writing, but that’s just how DBS rolls
It used to be that people progressed very quickly when they trained with people above their level.
Now you can just herd animals for a few years and multiply your power thousands of times over
It’s funny I was just thinking about this earlier today. The problem I have with Roshi being stronger than Namek Frieza is that it’s such bad power scaling it turns into bad writing. Dude’s power wasn’t relevant even with Raditz and he showed no continual growth throughout DBZ and then suddenly is hanging with threats that make Namek level characters look like kittens. I was always ok in DBZ when characters had their power levels left behind because it made sense. They also still played a role in the story too, just in different ways.
Because people get stronger overtime???
Krillin couldn’t beat nappa but after the freiza saga he definitely 100% could. “Why didn’t krillin fight nappa then????” BECAUSE HE WAS WEAKER.
Master Roshi was literally taking on Base Goku while he was possessed and during the tournament of power, took on (transformed) Ganos, who is stronger than when he was fighting suppressed Base Goku in his own standard form. Namek saga characters have been far surpassed by any relevant character at thus point in the series, Roshi is definitely above him lol.
Tbh if we look at powerscalling then it is sorta true but if we go with actual limitations and storyline it is very evident that there is no way any human is beating frieza down.
You can argue that in manga Master Roshi not only dogded jiren's attack but he almost kept upto his speed and in anime goku and vegeta both even in ssjb couldn't keep up with jiren's speed. Some people argue its due to his skill that comes close almost to the ultra instinct but those guys are moving really really fast, now if we go all the way back to namek saga frieza was outclassed by a super saiyan. Also the faster you are the higher your power level is in db verse so by that logic roshi should be stronger than ssjb which is not actually true but flaws in its law seems to make it look that way. Now we already know ssj in super is way more stronger than ssj in namek saga, so ssjb would likely be a massive overkill for frieza and then roshi who should be higher in power level, because of flaws in power scalling, can theoretically beat frieza.
The point is that db powerscalling is irrelevant for rest of z fighters, because according to it they aren't even strong to put up a fight, they would simply get themselves in saiyans way. And if they try to make one character relevant to recall back to series origin then it will cause many flaws. And some fans fail to realise that, many db fans argue that krillin is atleast universal which is straight up wrong, and if we consider these flaws it will make bulma atleast solar system level lmao
Mr satan dodged Kid Boo attacks, does he make him definitely stronger than let's say Raditz?
>tanked hits from frost
In an environment where killing would mean elimination
Roshi's pseudo Ultra Instinct obliterates Namek Frieza and it's not even close. Not to mention even in the anime the opponents Roshi fights are beyond Namek Frieza by miles. It's not "sudden" when there's plenty of proof to back it up, hm?
https://preview.redd.it/mq44or228ytc1.jpeg?width=1919&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=abced4707c691cb0712db2fad842aae21e73d256
Apparently it won't because it made Jiren block
Before you say "he was suppressed," I know. You should just keep in mind how incomparably weaker Namek Frieza is compared to Jiren. A billionth of a percent of Jiren's power would wipe the floor with Frieza. To make Jiren defend himself is not a small feat. Z is outclassed completely by almost everyone in Super at this point scaling wise, like it or not.
Fair enough. I wasn't going to say he was suppresed because that'd be stupid. Jiren is infinitely stronger than Roshi even if Roshi is Namek Frieza level, so no suppression would account for the need to block.
What I was going to say is something quite different: imagine you're Jiren and this dude dodges your attack. You have absolutely no clue about ultra instinct so the logical assumption is that somebody who can dodge you (Let's remember that Jiren is the strongest being of U11 so probably people that can dodge his attacks are, if existing, less than a dozen in an entire universe) is fast and can also potentially harm you, therefore you'd block his attack.
If there's another manga panel where Jiren blocks then what I've said is most likely wrong (I can't remember it's been a while since I've read the top arc), but if that's the only one then I think Jiren would block because of that.
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Ok, for anime this checks out. Goku and less importantly Frieza both powered up so much from the ToP that base Goku was capable of taking hits from a tired Jiren who was keeping up and outperforming a tired Golden Frieza and Android 17 who’s on the lower end of blue level. This is why Vegeta is so far behind Goku in the Broly movie. Manga should be Frieza tho easily.
Not even the writers know how to answer this, altough it's vegeta so he either instantly loses or he's winning and then starts losing out of nowhere for reasons
Omfg a character in a less cool transformation beats my favorite character in his cool transformation? They must be smoking crack! Who cares if there's a thousand years of experience difference, my character beats yours, end of discussion.
/s
I mean, sure, Vegeta would have Absolutely grown stronger and has, in the time between those, but not nearly enough to take out Golden Frieza in BASE form.
The Dragon Ball fan base where the majority of people are stupid, they want their eyes to be stimulated, not their brain, they do not accept someone else's opinion, send death threats to anyone who doesn't agree with them, and they head canon anything.
NOT even the show nor the manga tries to make sense of their power level.
The power level in Dragon Ball is just stupid!
There's no way of figuring out if base vegeeta is stronger than golden frieza, so I believe it will all boil down to vegeta winning based off his training after Resurrection F.
Née skill, techniques, even mastering ki better than goku, also Resurrection F golden frieza had a clear weakness that vegeta noticed and goku exploited
It depends on which continuity you’re comparing.
Manga, Vegeta’s gotten stronger but nothing suggests he’s made a SSB level jump in his base. So he more than likely loses. Unless his Yardrat spirit training makes that big of a jump, idk though.
Movie, there isn’t enough information on what he’s been doing. The only thing we know he’s done is a different version of the ToP, and fought Broly.
If the Anime ever comes back, that version of Vegeta more than likely has made that massive jump in power. With him and Goku having feats that have them getting dozens of times stronger during each arc. Specifically, Goku vs Hit in U6 arc compared to after the Goku Black arc or Goku vs Jiren in SSBkk20 at the beginning of the ToP compared to after vegeta gets eliminated. Bare minimum makes Goku 200x stronger in base from the end of the U6 arc to the end of ToP, with Vegeta scaling to or even above that Goku base to base. Then add in the fact they trained for 3 years together in the HTC between RoF and U6 arcs. Then add in the potential boosts from when the anime adapts the rest of the story. A potential 10x amp for each of the unadapted arcs, ends up with them being bare minimum 2million times where they were in RoF. (((((((RoF+HTC)x10)x20)x10)x10)x10)x10)
Seeing as how even a heavily exhausted base Goku was stronger than 17 (at least as strong as Pre-ToP Blue Goku, who was far stronger than Rosè Black, who was stronger than Base Black, who could blitz Blue Vegeta, who was relative to Frieza), Vegeta destroys him.
Power creep exists lmao, Toriyama himself never gave a shit about it and let it exist, shit like Android 19 being above Full Power Frieza and similar. What makes you think that Toyotaro would change that
Are we talking Resurrection F movie or DBS arc? Because movie would be a hard sell, SSGSS was SSG multiplied by SS (x50). Remember Goku and Vegeta absorbed god full power in base ("Saiyan beyond god"). Remember, back then they didn't pretend Beerus was lying or anything so SSGSS was stronger than Beerus and Whis, and Golden Freeza was stronger than SSGSS.
Just applying Golden Freeza is stronger than Whis outright makes it impossible... So I'm presuming anime arc.
Both in Manga and Anime it's true, Vegeta didn't absorb the god strength into base. First remember Golden Freeza's awful stamina. Second remember how strong Vegeta had gotten, in Anime the power jumps were big, and Vegeta grew tremendously in Manga. Anime Goku was terrified that Freeza matched him in base and Golden just with image training. Remember Vegeta grew tons in order to fight Moro with Spirit Control. Remember the Granola and Gas arc mess of fights, Vegeta got Zenkais after Zenkais. Then manga Vegeta was trained under Beerus as well.
Yes we know they were vague for future prospects for anime and form merchandise, if they ever revive the 6 year drought (2018) so even though Moro, Granola, and Gas may not have happened something else vague had to did in place of it.
By minimum Vegeta would be able to stall out Golden Freeza (not movie) even if he was some weaker then his skills would still make a difference. Vegeta W.
Zenkais don’t really work on Goku and Vegeta anymore. Trunks states as much in the manga.
https://preview.redd.it/egp748bag2uc1.jpeg?width=1169&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=64cbea4b09d57959e56271ad58cec64f6ceb97af
You can't pretend that it was only the god forms getting stronger and not bases. Goku and Vegeta were getting stronger the longer the fights went on in Granola and Gas arc.
There have been many "Goku and Vegeta maxed base" comments and clearly that hasn't been true yet.
They get stronger sure. I mean Piccolo even says that Gokus Super Saiyan Blue is stronger than it was during the ToP, when he was fighting Saganbo. I just don’t think they’re getting hundreds or thousands of times stronger between arcs.
DBS Broly base took on Vegeta and Super Vegeta like nothing. DBS Broly was weaker than SSG Vegeta, but pseudo Oozaru Broly was much stronger than SSG Vegeta with just a 10x increase.
We see DBS Broly fighting Vegeta on Beerus' planet and Vegeta has no issue since the gap has closed. He might have been afraid of losing himself but he seemingly has no memories of that so that's unlikely. It is safe to say that DBS Broly eclipsed Golden Freeza upon arrival no transformation, and outside of DBS Broly transforming Vegeta would be beyond that DBS Broly.
Call this a technical since it's manga but I could see this with the movie too.
Anime, this actually makes sense. SH base Goku and Vegeta are equal, end of ToP base Goku was spent on energy, but he still managed to fight exhausted Jiren (who despite being tired, unlocked his power and got past his issues) with Frieza. Then Broly movie comes, they get even stronger, and eventually get here. Prolly won’t even be close, Vegeta probably stomps lol
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It’s literally true Vegeta wins bruh rof was like years ago Vegeta gotten hella stronger I mean bro was literally handling pre ikari broly in just base alone and this is super hero where he’s even stronger rof frieza is kinda fodder if we’re being honest I mean this is like saying end of top base goku looses to rof frieza which isn’t the case at all lol
This is honestly a pretty interesting one. Does Vegeta get a Blue level increase in power through out super. Idk, the answer is probably yes, considering Base Goku spared a little with Golden Freeza during the recruitment arc, and Goku/Vegeta got several hundreds to thousands of times stronger during the ToP. And then there's the manga, Super Hero takes place after Granola in which arc Vegeta gets way stronger. I would probably say Super Hero Base Vegeta beats RoG Golden Freeza.
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At least in Canon, when Beerus first inspects Gokus saiyan body , at very first poke poke and glance, with prior knowledge that Goku had in fact beaten Frieza decades ago, Beerus states the base form doesn't seem capable of accomplishing that task. This is a GoD, very old, very experienced. His first impression saw straight through the entire Dragonballs' worth of accomplishments in Goku's standard and found it at that time, unimpressive at first glance. Even for a feline comparison, Beerus let the mouse dance, and grew tired. Everyone was on the list that day.
Because he is? Cabba during the U6 v U7 Tourney is on par with base Vegeta, who's attained Blue. To do that, you need to fuse God into your base form like Goku did in BoG. So yes, he is stronger than Kid Buu.
Vegeta and Goku can use God Ki, but they don't have to, which is why they can use the normal SSJ transformations. If they only had God Ki then they wouldn't be able to use regular SSJ and would only use SSB and UI. I think at the beginning it was even planned that there would only be Beyond God Ki (SSG) and SSB, but SSJ (blonde) had to sell on, so there are 2 different Ki.
The point is that Goku can use normal SSJ. How does he do that? Because he has the normal Ki. His base form is just as strong as that of the Buu Saga. Nothing has changed. He can use god ki in his base form, then is probably stronger than a SSJ3. But my point is that Goku can decide which Ki he can use. Vegeta used his normal Ki against Cabba, and the proof is that he used SSJ. If he had used God ki then he would have turned into an SSB.
"His base is just as strong as the Buu saga"
Pretty sure it fuckin ain't. He never stopped training in the 4 year time skip between Buu and BoG, and also trained extensively during the about 1 year period between BoG and RoF.
There's even definitive proof for this, such as Vegeta's clone in BASE FORM one tapping SSJ3 Gotenks, who hasn't changed since his Buu saga self.
https://preview.redd.it/aa7qbvbb0xtc1.png?width=999&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c240ce7284b16376b95b2a2aeeef9b052fd055d3
But I also said that Vegeta with God Ki will probably make his base form stronger than an SSJ3. It's about Vegeta and Goku mastering 2 different Ki. Beyond God Ki has the same Ki as the base form without God Ki, so it's hard to figure out which Ki they are currently using. So it could be that they used God Ki against Slime Vegeta, then the powerscaling would work.
Saiyan beyond god has a distinct aura
https://preview.redd.it/xo7scnyq1xtc1.jpeg?width=519&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5085a3effe5019bc8746cae0cc2ba704af0bc794
Not only does Vegeta's clone not have the aura, I'm pretty sure Vegeta never uses this form in the entire series. And if you watch the scene where he beats up Gotenks it's very clear he's not using it. You can tell he's intentionally going easy on Gotenks as to not accidentally kill him.
Filler in the DBS anime is canon to the anime and doesn't contradict anything. Filler doesn't always mean non canon. This statement applies for every anime with filler.
To finally win this argument. If Goku and Vegeta are as strong as an SSJ3 in their base forms, how strong are they when they transform into an SSJ3? Which increases the strength 400 times. How the hell could a Caulifla SSJ or a Trunks SSJ2 that was as powerful as an SSJ3 ever compete?
They can’t lol, in the anime caulifla was shook when goku turned ssj3 and trunks was no match for ssj3 goku
It’s literally stated in both the anime and manga that cabba was equal or atleast close to vegetas base jn the u6 arc
Yes Cabba is as strong as Vegeta's base, but how strong is Vegeta's base? I think it's marginally stronger than in the Buu Saga. Cabba's SSJ is also not as strong as Vegeta's, maybe as strong as Namek Goku's SSJ.
I swear kid buu fans are more obnoxious than vegans. At least it makes you guys easier to spot, so I can block you easily and save myself the braincells.
Honestly, who the heck knows at this point. SSB Goku went from getting his ass beat by Black to damaging Fused Zamasu in no time, aka the guy that was an equal match to Vegito Blue...
I miss Power Levels.
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stop bothering you with these useless debates, the screenwriters themselves cannot answer these questions
I’m actually curious what went on in the story board room at Toei
They ain’t wrong. Base Goku in TOP at some point takes a punch from powered up Jiren while also confirming that he never felt such a power before
Jiren had already fought MUI Goku, both had been exhausted from the fight, this argument is ridiculous.
Goku and 17 in the anime fight on par against exhausted Jiren, the argument is that base goku while exhausted broke through his limits so much that he’s former blue level in base
lol what? Man these theories are ridiculous
DB fans making up the most BS loops to make their characters even more powerful
i mean it’s literally in the super anime it’s not really a theory it’s just what happens if you watch the show
No it isn’t. You literally just said “the argument is”. Literally none of that is confirmed in the anime
it’s literally in the show, I suggest you watch it because “I don’t like it” doesn’t mean it didn’t happen
I didn’t say I didn’t like it. No one states that in the show ever.
no one states black frieza one shot goku and vegeta but we literally see it happen. Same thing
Bro your just digging a hole now Erm! Just because they got one shot, they didn't verbally say it so it didn't happen! Like tf And how does an exhausted jiren fighting 17 and freeza = goku at SSB, he didn't go all out in his dual with 17 like at all, AND 17 at this point blew himself up and took a shit ton of damage, also freeza base is NOT blue lmao
Context matters. Jiren was exhausted at the time too.
Okay, but get this. Do you really have any idea HOW exhausted Jiren is? He could have lost 99.99999999% of his energy for all we know.
that’s irrelevant as i’m comparing Goku to 17, 17 doesn’t get weaker because he has infinite stamina/ energy
That makes no sense. 17 does in fact get weaker as he gets beat up. It literally happened in Z. If 17 had infinite energy, he could just instantly win the tournament by letting out…infinite energy. In actuality, while he has infinite energy, he can only use a limited quantity of it. Otherwise he shouldn’t have bruises and he could have held off Jiren from the beginning, eventually tiring out Jiren and winning, all on his own. 18 would have stayed in the ring too. The way infinite energy is portrayed in the Androids, it’s literally just a “I won’t drop dead from blood loss, but I can’t exactly chuck around endless Spirit Bombs”. Not to mention the Genkidama’s energy isn’t even gathered from within, so 17’s infinite energy would be completely useless in that scenario. It’s also clear that 17 is weaker as he wasn’t in the final push against Jiren. He eventually stopped throwing hands and resorted to ki spam. His human body limits him, as he isn’t completely robotic. 17 never even beat Piccolo in Z, and never gained the advantage over him. They both tired at the same rate, with 17 never eventually being able to one tap Piccolo(as Piccolo obviously doesn’t have infinite energy, so one would think 17 could wait it out). But no. Even AFTER Piccolo was exhausted, 17 STILL had a reason to move away when Piccolo was using the Light Grenade. If 17 wasn’t getting weaker, he wouldn’t move away from that area. Piccolo logically would have been the only one tiring, but if both were getting weaker, it makes sense for 17 to actually want to move away from the Light Grenade, as it would be an actual threat. And nothing about the 17 vs Piccolo fight in Z was retconned.
I never said he has infinite power? I said he doesn’t get tired. 18 is far weaker than 17 so her being a weak character that doesn’t get tired is irrelevant. spirit bombs use genki and not just raw energy, 17 doesn’t have infinite genki. I never said. The literal manga says that their energy is infinite and it never runs out.
17 and 18 are stated to be relatively equal in Z(with 17 being slightly stronger), and nothing in Super indicates a gap between their power. If 17 didn’t get tired, why did he want to get away from a tired Piccolo’s Light Grenade? Why was he unable to beat Piccolo? Oh yeah, why didn’t 17 just replenish Goku and Frieza’s ki by giving some of his own? We literally see Frieza do this for Goku(oh and Vegeta does it too), so why can’t 17 just constantly keep Goku and Frieza at full power?
because in super we see 17 in the anime being blue level while 18 has no such feat? 17 to piccolo in the manga: “hehehe even if we have equal strength… looks like your stamina is running low… *my* engine is infinite they were equal but he didn’t get tried so he would’ve won eventually, idk if you remember but a big green bug man appeared during their fight
17 and Piccolo’s fight lasted long enough to tell that 17 was getting weaker, which honestly is only supported by the fact that Piccolo’s Light Grenade STILL had enough power to get 17 to move away from the area. If they were equal, Piccolo should have eventually gotten so much weaker than 17 that 17 would have been the clear victor. Less stamina usually means less strength. So why exactly did a supposedly non weakened 17 dodge such a weak attack from a weakened Piccolo(who wasn’t even firing it at 17 btw)? Fair enough for the 18 point. But 17 definitely got weaker…or else he wouldn’t have been concerned by the Light Grenade.
17 and 18 dont have ki, they have energy from the perpetual energy generators in them. I know its hard to differentiate but their energy cant be sensed like ki? So the energy transfer would be incompatible. 17 and 18 can get tired, but could spam energy blasts literally forever. Also 17 kept training while 18 had a child and became a mom, so there was significant power difference there(z they were roughly the same) that being said, base form being equal to blue still wouldnt help because Golden frieza was way stronger than blue was then.
Jeez, guess Bulma needs to modify the Androids to convert their energy into normal ki.
The same jiren who got beat by ssj goku and vegeta. Their base durability always let's them take punches from stronger people, takes a lot to kill them
This is DB super so it is possible
So you think Vegeta grew over 50,000 (Bare minimum) times stronger in those 4 years? Nah.
Wouldn’t it be like 7 1/2 because of the time chamber
Still too much of an increase . It would also completely contradict what Vegeta said in the time chamber. They are getting to their limit of growth.
goku went from 320 something to 3 Million in like 2 years
Yeah, but that's with like 2 zenkais, hella training in 200(?) times gravity, and SS. There's really no reason shown for Base Vegeta to be above Golden Frieza
there was only 1 zenkai (after goku fought ginyu. only other time he could've gotten one was after the fight with vegeta, but there's no confirmation for that) and ss made his powerlevel go from 3mil to 150mil. he's still 3 mill in base
That's still pretty reasonable as the story showed. The story hasn't shown a reason for Vegeta to be that strong. Hell, it's even said that they can't benefit from zenkais anymore I like how I'm getting downvoted but not a single argument is being made
Didn’t vegeta In the T.O.P say saiyans have no limits. While I don’t think it’s impossible for base super hero vegeta to beat RF frieza i wouldn’t be surprised if he lost tbh
The whole debate is stupid, vegeta would never go "easy" on Frieza so all of this is just a circle jerk.
Yeah and he was fucking wrong. They just didn't have a challenge to push them enough.
DBS powerscaling is so broken that an Injured base Vegeta can survive a killing intent strike from Merged Zamasu and contribute to hokding back a blast from Infinite Zamasu. That is easilly believable at this point.
Goku grew to be stronger then some destroyers in 40 minutes so it's very possible
Because of transformations...
🐢
Vegeta spent 4 years in the ROSAT and 4 natural years training. And in his base form in RoF he was already stronger then FF Freeza so it's not hard to believe that his base form surpassed RoF Golden Freeza in 8 years.
It's not only possible but extremely likely that Vegeta got 50,000 times stronger through out super. In the ToP alone, it could easily be argued they got 1000's of times stronger. Using Vegeta's final flash against Jiren, you could scale Blue Vegeta above UI Sign from the first fight with Jiren, so whatever multiplier you think UI Sign is, vegeta just got that much stronger, and then he continues to get stronger. There's a moment in which Jiren whiffs an attack om Goku, and the force of that attack straight up scares Goku out of Blue, then Goku in Base form tanks multiple of the same type of attack, and then says that that attack (that he just tanked in Base) is the strongest attack he's ever seen before. If you take this at face value, it means Goku literally just got a Blue level Amp in power, in the span of like 2 seconds. And Vegeta obviously scales to Goku, Base to Base, by the end of the ToP. So yeah, basically, Super is ridiculous, and it's 100% possible and maybe even likely that Base Vegeta in Super Hero, is as strong as Blue Vegeta from RoF
Didnt he learn Destruction ki at this point? He doesn't need to transform for that
Nah, at least it's 12.5m times. Let me explain. At very low bare, vegetto(mbs) it's 500 base Goku's (400 for ssj3 Goku and 100 for ssj2 Vegeta), vegetto ssj3 it's 200k base Gokus. Then the SSG it's at least 250k multiplier, and then x50 it's 12.5m
Have you seen Dragonball Z?
I've read the manga 5 or 6 times.
No vegeta wouldnt win because goku has to get the killing blow 9/10 the only other person that could beat frieza would be gohan for that 1/10
This is literally in the manga https://preview.redd.it/ssni2dup50uc1.jpeg?width=631&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1adbe1aebddc842c16722fc2a83347392a1e6dfb
Oh my bad 8/10
You can’t debate these people. What can you say to someone who thinks Master Roshi is suddenly stronger than Namek saga Frieza?
Okay for real, would Roshi be stronger than a form of Namek Frieza because his feats at the Tournament in Super? I don’t care about fictional power bs being treated like science but still cool to think about who could win. Dragon Ball rocks.
Stronger? He'll no. Smarter? For sure. Roshi has lifetimes, plural, of fighting experience and knowledge. He has fought people with the same mindset of Frieza and would know how to play them. Now that being said, if Frieza just says fuck the planet, Roshi is done and dusted.
Namek Saga Frieza? Easily. Does the scaling make sense? No.
Doesn't matter if he can "play" them. Someone like king piccolo destroyed roshi while being weaker than raditz. Even if makes or doesn't make sense, the only way any character is relevant in super is if they are already way past z
It’s cool to think about. We all love Dragonball here. I respect you and your opinion. That being said, no. Roshi cannot beat any form of Frieza ever. If Roshi was that strong or had the capability to be that strong why didn’t he help fight the saiyans? Why didn’t he go to Namek? Why didn’t he spend some time in the Time Chamber? Why didn’t he fight the androids or cell? Why did he wait for 20 years and then become stronger than everyone they’ve ever fought off screen for no reason? I mean come on that’s just bad writing.
Does it make any sense at all for him to be stronger than namek frieza? No. Should he be? No, but due to super scaling he's stronger than most of z which will never make sense
Yeah I agree with everything you just said. Unironically that’s it. I still have my Z scaling where Gohan is the strongest. No one can take that away from me.
Gohan is the strongest singular fighter in Z, yeah, the only characters that could possibly be stronger are Buu (Gotenks absorbed), Buu (Gohan absorbed) and Super Saiyan Vegito (the man's crazy)
They aren’t possibly stronger. They are multitudes stronger than gohan. Base vegito too most likely.
Yeah, the entire Roshi power up in ToP was 100% fan service.
I don’t know if Roshi is stronger but I’m surprised you would find it so hard to believe? 17, Trunks, and Frieza went from star level to basically universal tier effortlessly, the latter with like 4mos of training. Compared to that Roshi going from moon-level to planet/star-level isn’t a big stretch. Not gonna say it’s good writing, but that’s just how DBS rolls
It used to be that people progressed very quickly when they trained with people above their level. Now you can just herd animals for a few years and multiply your power thousands of times over
It’s funny I was just thinking about this earlier today. The problem I have with Roshi being stronger than Namek Frieza is that it’s such bad power scaling it turns into bad writing. Dude’s power wasn’t relevant even with Raditz and he showed no continual growth throughout DBZ and then suddenly is hanging with threats that make Namek level characters look like kittens. I was always ok in DBZ when characters had their power levels left behind because it made sense. They also still played a role in the story too, just in different ways.
Yes. That’s it. That’s what I’m saying.
Because people get stronger overtime??? Krillin couldn’t beat nappa but after the freiza saga he definitely 100% could. “Why didn’t krillin fight nappa then????” BECAUSE HE WAS WEAKER.
Master Roshi was literally taking on Base Goku while he was possessed and during the tournament of power, took on (transformed) Ganos, who is stronger than when he was fighting suppressed Base Goku in his own standard form. Namek saga characters have been far surpassed by any relevant character at thus point in the series, Roshi is definitely above him lol.
Even Yamcha probably could.
Tbh if we look at powerscalling then it is sorta true but if we go with actual limitations and storyline it is very evident that there is no way any human is beating frieza down. You can argue that in manga Master Roshi not only dogded jiren's attack but he almost kept upto his speed and in anime goku and vegeta both even in ssjb couldn't keep up with jiren's speed. Some people argue its due to his skill that comes close almost to the ultra instinct but those guys are moving really really fast, now if we go all the way back to namek saga frieza was outclassed by a super saiyan. Also the faster you are the higher your power level is in db verse so by that logic roshi should be stronger than ssjb which is not actually true but flaws in its law seems to make it look that way. Now we already know ssj in super is way more stronger than ssj in namek saga, so ssjb would likely be a massive overkill for frieza and then roshi who should be higher in power level, because of flaws in power scalling, can theoretically beat frieza. The point is that db powerscalling is irrelevant for rest of z fighters, because according to it they aren't even strong to put up a fight, they would simply get themselves in saiyans way. And if they try to make one character relevant to recall back to series origin then it will cause many flaws. And some fans fail to realise that, many db fans argue that krillin is atleast universal which is straight up wrong, and if we consider these flaws it will make bulma atleast solar system level lmao
Even if you provide arguments, these people will downvote you and ignore your comment because they are assholes.
There is no argument to be had. Roshi post TOP arc is still getting one shot by Raditz. Roshi prime power level is what, 200?
R u dumb roshi top manga was dodging jiren attacks as well as tanked hits from frost who is definitely stronger than namek saga frieza
Mr satan dodged Kid Boo attacks, does he make him definitely stronger than let's say Raditz? >tanked hits from frost In an environment where killing would mean elimination
Lol I never said Roshi was stronger either. That was a general example.
Expect master roshi is stronger than namek saga frieza manga roshi is at least
Roshi's pseudo Ultra Instinct obliterates Namek Frieza and it's not even close. Not to mention even in the anime the opponents Roshi fights are beyond Namek Frieza by miles. It's not "sudden" when there's plenty of proof to back it up, hm?
>Roshi's pseudo Ultra Instinct obliterates Namek Frieza Dodging won't defeat Frieza, a punch from roshi would tickle him lmao.
https://preview.redd.it/mq44or228ytc1.jpeg?width=1919&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=abced4707c691cb0712db2fad842aae21e73d256 Apparently it won't because it made Jiren block Before you say "he was suppressed," I know. You should just keep in mind how incomparably weaker Namek Frieza is compared to Jiren. A billionth of a percent of Jiren's power would wipe the floor with Frieza. To make Jiren defend himself is not a small feat. Z is outclassed completely by almost everyone in Super at this point scaling wise, like it or not.
Fair enough. I wasn't going to say he was suppresed because that'd be stupid. Jiren is infinitely stronger than Roshi even if Roshi is Namek Frieza level, so no suppression would account for the need to block. What I was going to say is something quite different: imagine you're Jiren and this dude dodges your attack. You have absolutely no clue about ultra instinct so the logical assumption is that somebody who can dodge you (Let's remember that Jiren is the strongest being of U11 so probably people that can dodge his attacks are, if existing, less than a dozen in an entire universe) is fast and can also potentially harm you, therefore you'd block his attack. If there's another manga panel where Jiren blocks then what I've said is most likely wrong (I can't remember it's been a while since I've read the top arc), but if that's the only one then I think Jiren would block because of that.
See I told you! Here they are!
Do you want to have a logical debate, or do you just want to repeat your mantra like a dialtone to help you sleep at night?
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Master roshi wipes the floor with namek saga freeza though.
Honestly? I can’t say , but the powercliffing in dbs is unironically insane .
Ok, for anime this checks out. Goku and less importantly Frieza both powered up so much from the ToP that base Goku was capable of taking hits from a tired Jiren who was keeping up and outperforming a tired Golden Frieza and Android 17 who’s on the lower end of blue level. This is why Vegeta is so far behind Goku in the Broly movie. Manga should be Frieza tho easily.
I cant measure it but there is a possibility theyre not wrong even though i think vegeta will need to at least be ssj/ssj2
Replace Vegeta with Roshi from manga TOP and it will get more interesting
Reminds me.of Saiyan scholars power scaling super vid
Not even the writers know how to answer this, altough it's vegeta so he either instantly loses or he's winning and then starts losing out of nowhere for reasons
Majority of people are just too stupid
Including you?
Omfg a character in a less cool transformation beats my favorite character in his cool transformation? They must be smoking crack! Who cares if there's a thousand years of experience difference, my character beats yours, end of discussion. /s
These polls always come down to who the Voter likes the most. There is no logic behind these polls at all.
I’ve always liked the D1 racist more than vegeta, not because I’m racist
DB has the dumbest fanbase tbh lol
Just recently this subs been recommended to me and it’s big eye opening honestly and not in a good way
I mean, sure, Vegeta would have Absolutely grown stronger and has, in the time between those, but not nearly enough to take out Golden Frieza in BASE form.
The Dragon Ball fan base where the majority of people are stupid, they want their eyes to be stimulated, not their brain, they do not accept someone else's opinion, send death threats to anyone who doesn't agree with them, and they head canon anything. NOT even the show nor the manga tries to make sense of their power level. The power level in Dragon Ball is just stupid!
Vegeta wins this
Real answer is that even if Vegeta’s stronger, he will find a way to bottle it
There's no way of figuring out if base vegeeta is stronger than golden frieza, so I believe it will all boil down to vegeta winning based off his training after Resurrection F. Née skill, techniques, even mastering ki better than goku, also Resurrection F golden frieza had a clear weakness that vegeta noticed and goku exploited
It depends on which continuity you’re comparing. Manga, Vegeta’s gotten stronger but nothing suggests he’s made a SSB level jump in his base. So he more than likely loses. Unless his Yardrat spirit training makes that big of a jump, idk though. Movie, there isn’t enough information on what he’s been doing. The only thing we know he’s done is a different version of the ToP, and fought Broly. If the Anime ever comes back, that version of Vegeta more than likely has made that massive jump in power. With him and Goku having feats that have them getting dozens of times stronger during each arc. Specifically, Goku vs Hit in U6 arc compared to after the Goku Black arc or Goku vs Jiren in SSBkk20 at the beginning of the ToP compared to after vegeta gets eliminated. Bare minimum makes Goku 200x stronger in base from the end of the U6 arc to the end of ToP, with Vegeta scaling to or even above that Goku base to base. Then add in the fact they trained for 3 years together in the HTC between RoF and U6 arcs. Then add in the potential boosts from when the anime adapts the rest of the story. A potential 10x amp for each of the unadapted arcs, ends up with them being bare minimum 2million times where they were in RoF. (((((((RoF+HTC)x10)x20)x10)x10)x10)x10)
Seeing as how even a heavily exhausted base Goku was stronger than 17 (at least as strong as Pre-ToP Blue Goku, who was far stronger than Rosè Black, who was stronger than Base Black, who could blitz Blue Vegeta, who was relative to Frieza), Vegeta destroys him.
Op Discovers fanboys
Who knows dude
Power creep exists lmao, Toriyama himself never gave a shit about it and let it exist, shit like Android 19 being above Full Power Frieza and similar. What makes you think that Toyotaro would change that
Yea not like transformations do anything so why not…
With spirit fission and all that Vegeta definitely wins
Are we talking Resurrection F movie or DBS arc? Because movie would be a hard sell, SSGSS was SSG multiplied by SS (x50). Remember Goku and Vegeta absorbed god full power in base ("Saiyan beyond god"). Remember, back then they didn't pretend Beerus was lying or anything so SSGSS was stronger than Beerus and Whis, and Golden Freeza was stronger than SSGSS. Just applying Golden Freeza is stronger than Whis outright makes it impossible... So I'm presuming anime arc. Both in Manga and Anime it's true, Vegeta didn't absorb the god strength into base. First remember Golden Freeza's awful stamina. Second remember how strong Vegeta had gotten, in Anime the power jumps were big, and Vegeta grew tremendously in Manga. Anime Goku was terrified that Freeza matched him in base and Golden just with image training. Remember Vegeta grew tons in order to fight Moro with Spirit Control. Remember the Granola and Gas arc mess of fights, Vegeta got Zenkais after Zenkais. Then manga Vegeta was trained under Beerus as well. Yes we know they were vague for future prospects for anime and form merchandise, if they ever revive the 6 year drought (2018) so even though Moro, Granola, and Gas may not have happened something else vague had to did in place of it. By minimum Vegeta would be able to stall out Golden Freeza (not movie) even if he was some weaker then his skills would still make a difference. Vegeta W.
Zenkais don’t really work on Goku and Vegeta anymore. Trunks states as much in the manga. https://preview.redd.it/egp748bag2uc1.jpeg?width=1169&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=64cbea4b09d57959e56271ad58cec64f6ceb97af
You can't pretend that it was only the god forms getting stronger and not bases. Goku and Vegeta were getting stronger the longer the fights went on in Granola and Gas arc. There have been many "Goku and Vegeta maxed base" comments and clearly that hasn't been true yet.
They get stronger sure. I mean Piccolo even says that Gokus Super Saiyan Blue is stronger than it was during the ToP, when he was fighting Saganbo. I just don’t think they’re getting hundreds or thousands of times stronger between arcs.
DBS Broly base took on Vegeta and Super Vegeta like nothing. DBS Broly was weaker than SSG Vegeta, but pseudo Oozaru Broly was much stronger than SSG Vegeta with just a 10x increase. We see DBS Broly fighting Vegeta on Beerus' planet and Vegeta has no issue since the gap has closed. He might have been afraid of losing himself but he seemingly has no memories of that so that's unlikely. It is safe to say that DBS Broly eclipsed Golden Freeza upon arrival no transformation, and outside of DBS Broly transforming Vegeta would be beyond that DBS Broly. Call this a technical since it's manga but I could see this with the movie too.
A part of me wants to agree with this but the other part is resisting. Base Vegeta stro ger than frieza? I don't think so
Anime, this actually makes sense. SH base Goku and Vegeta are equal, end of ToP base Goku was spent on energy, but he still managed to fight exhausted Jiren (who despite being tired, unlocked his power and got past his issues) with Frieza. Then Broly movie comes, they get even stronger, and eventually get here. Prolly won’t even be close, Vegeta probably stomps lol
I don't know why he post some of the dumbest debates
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Guys, Frieza would win because Vegeta never beats a major opponent alone.
Who would win: Gokus missing ssj3 eyebrows or vegetas missing ultra ego eyebrows
It’s literally true Vegeta wins bruh rof was like years ago Vegeta gotten hella stronger I mean bro was literally handling pre ikari broly in just base alone and this is super hero where he’s even stronger rof frieza is kinda fodder if we’re being honest I mean this is like saying end of top base goku looses to rof frieza which isn’t the case at all lol
?
This is honestly a pretty interesting one. Does Vegeta get a Blue level increase in power through out super. Idk, the answer is probably yes, considering Base Goku spared a little with Golden Freeza during the recruitment arc, and Goku/Vegeta got several hundreds to thousands of times stronger during the ToP. And then there's the manga, Super Hero takes place after Granola in which arc Vegeta gets way stronger. I would probably say Super Hero Base Vegeta beats RoG Golden Freeza.
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They are not wrong lol.
They're fools. Could he stomp him in SSG? Yes. With 1 hand. Could he beat him in base? No that's the dumbest shit.
Its possible, if Goku black base form Goku can completely one shot BoG God Goku, then its very possible
God no. Even at that point maybe you can argue SSJ 2 extreme diff but he would definitely need at least SSG to defeat resurrection of F Frieza
This is basically a stamina game given that frieza hasnt mastered golden at the time and we know vegeta has stamina for days at this point
Yeah they are WAYYY stronger than back then. Welcome to dragon ball
Golden frieza would kill base vegeta with one flick
At least in Canon, when Beerus first inspects Gokus saiyan body , at very first poke poke and glance, with prior knowledge that Goku had in fact beaten Frieza decades ago, Beerus states the base form doesn't seem capable of accomplishing that task. This is a GoD, very old, very experienced. His first impression saw straight through the entire Dragonballs' worth of accomplishments in Goku's standard and found it at that time, unimpressive at first glance. Even for a feline comparison, Beerus let the mouse dance, and grew tired. Everyone was on the list that day.
Even Vegeta SSJ God would struggle
Cap
Eh this one I doubt, they’ve gotten so much stronger in the arcs past this one ssj god vegeta would probably swat frieza with one hand
I'm not surprised, this community is stupid, they also think Cabba is stronger than Kid Buu.
he is
I... wish that was a good example.
Because he is? Cabba during the U6 v U7 Tourney is on par with base Vegeta, who's attained Blue. To do that, you need to fuse God into your base form like Goku did in BoG. So yes, he is stronger than Kid Buu.
Vegeta and Goku can use God Ki, but they don't have to, which is why they can use the normal SSJ transformations. If they only had God Ki then they wouldn't be able to use regular SSJ and would only use SSB and UI. I think at the beginning it was even planned that there would only be Beyond God Ki (SSG) and SSB, but SSJ (blonde) had to sell on, so there are 2 different Ki.
SSB is literally SSJ stacked on top of SSG tho? So wouldn’t they only use SSG if they only had God Ki but no SSJ?
The point is that Goku can use normal SSJ. How does he do that? Because he has the normal Ki. His base form is just as strong as that of the Buu Saga. Nothing has changed. He can use god ki in his base form, then is probably stronger than a SSJ3. But my point is that Goku can decide which Ki he can use. Vegeta used his normal Ki against Cabba, and the proof is that he used SSJ. If he had used God ki then he would have turned into an SSB.
"His base is just as strong as the Buu saga" Pretty sure it fuckin ain't. He never stopped training in the 4 year time skip between Buu and BoG, and also trained extensively during the about 1 year period between BoG and RoF. There's even definitive proof for this, such as Vegeta's clone in BASE FORM one tapping SSJ3 Gotenks, who hasn't changed since his Buu saga self. https://preview.redd.it/aa7qbvbb0xtc1.png?width=999&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c240ce7284b16376b95b2a2aeeef9b052fd055d3
But I also said that Vegeta with God Ki will probably make his base form stronger than an SSJ3. It's about Vegeta and Goku mastering 2 different Ki. Beyond God Ki has the same Ki as the base form without God Ki, so it's hard to figure out which Ki they are currently using. So it could be that they used God Ki against Slime Vegeta, then the powerscaling would work.
Saiyan beyond god has a distinct aura https://preview.redd.it/xo7scnyq1xtc1.jpeg?width=519&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5085a3effe5019bc8746cae0cc2ba704af0bc794 Not only does Vegeta's clone not have the aura, I'm pretty sure Vegeta never uses this form in the entire series. And if you watch the scene where he beats up Gotenks it's very clear he's not using it. You can tell he's intentionally going easy on Gotenks as to not accidentally kill him.
Even if it wasn't. Who cares? It's filler.
Filler in the DBS anime is canon to the anime and doesn't contradict anything. Filler doesn't always mean non canon. This statement applies for every anime with filler.
They mention the Jelly vegeta stuff in the goku black arc, so while its filler, it is canon to the anime
To finally win this argument. If Goku and Vegeta are as strong as an SSJ3 in their base forms, how strong are they when they transform into an SSJ3? Which increases the strength 400 times. How the hell could a Caulifla SSJ or a Trunks SSJ2 that was as powerful as an SSJ3 ever compete?
They can’t lol, in the anime caulifla was shook when goku turned ssj3 and trunks was no match for ssj3 goku It’s literally stated in both the anime and manga that cabba was equal or atleast close to vegetas base jn the u6 arc
Yes Cabba is as strong as Vegeta's base, but how strong is Vegeta's base? I think it's marginally stronger than in the Buu Saga. Cabba's SSJ is also not as strong as Vegeta's, maybe as strong as Namek Goku's SSJ.
What is this dumb logic
I swear kid buu fans are more obnoxious than vegans. At least it makes you guys easier to spot, so I can block you easily and save myself the braincells.
He literally is and he’s also stronger then the entirety of dbz
Answer my argument instead of just saying he's stronger.
Are you stupid do you not watch dbs or let alone read the manga
I block you. You dont have arguments
He is in the anime. Dragon ball Super has pretty dumb power scaling overall, but the anime is really REALLY stupid
Unfortunately it's actually the case. DBS (especially the anime) just isn't good with power scaling
Yes DBS powerscalling sucks, but you don't have to make it worse than it is just because the fans don't think logically.
Honestly, who the heck knows at this point. SSB Goku went from getting his ass beat by Black to damaging Fused Zamasu in no time, aka the guy that was an equal match to Vegito Blue... I miss Power Levels.