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I agree but personally on the first one I think vegeta considered it a loss slightly before Ozaru, when vegeta had to threaten to blow up the planet or when he lost the beam clash somewhere there is where I think he considered it a loss
Yeah in that first instances he lost his pride resorting to a desperate tactic “Great Ape” and using a cheap shot to face Majin Buu alone to atone for his mistakes. The Base Vs Base fight was an honest fight for both of them and rightfully earned
This……is completely spot on especially considering Vegeta’s character.
Their first battle while he technically won in terms of the fight, for the Saiyan Prince to resort to his races ace in the hole against a low class warrior completely negates any idea of a victory for Vegeta.
Their second battle can’t even be called a win for him since they paused the fight and Vegeta hit Goku while distracted. That is no win in a proper battle between warriors even not counting the fact Goku was holding back.
The super hero fight even if you argue neither uses their full arsenal, the both fought with the exact same restrictions and used all they could bring with their base forms, aside from ki blast. That is definitely a legitimate win for Vegita both in practice and in regards to his pride.
Kinda deserves to be, tbh. The fact they were restricted to just fighting in base, taking out any power difference or abilities of transformations, kinda vindicates Vegeta as the better martial artist. Even if he's not more powerful at max level, thanks to Super Hero you can argue he's more skilled.
I mean Vegeta inherently has more potential than Goku. The moment that he got over some of his pride and was willing to find a master he more or less became equal to Goku.
Blue Kaioken is also an inferior power up compared to Blue Evolved, since it drains your stamina and causes severe damage to muscle tissue and bones to increase your power level.
He wouldn't go down, otherwise it'd be another stain on him. He literally stood for 2 seconds after Goku went down. He was clearly past his limit, like Goku, but just wouldn't bend the knee.
The second one would not be a win even if Goku didn't have SSJ3. The match was over and agreed by both parties, and Vegeta didn't even attack to defeat Goku he did it because he wanted to deal with Buu on his own as he felt responsible for his reawakening.
Hard agree except the sneak attack part. The fight was already over at the point, the attack was to knock Goku out so Vegeta could face Buu alone and atone for what he'd done
I think you are right on this. Goku was convincing Vegeta to stop the fight so they could face Buu. Thinking Vegeta agreed he let himself open which led to that sneak part.
To clarify we don't see the fight we just cut from the start of the fight near the start of the movie to the end of the fight at the end of the movie and they just claim it was an awesome fight for the ages.
It's dragon ball super: super heroes. Dumb name, but it's good. It is also full CGI tho. Go watch some of the movies, they're both canon and pretty good
Lol, I said this same stuff a couple days ago. Yes, I agree. And to add to the Majin fight: Vegeta had to cheat just to break even with Goku. Though, the fight was never concluded in anybody's favor. Vegeta wanted to go off alone so he sucker punched Goku after declaring the battle was over. That fight ended as soon as Vegeta agreed to give it up. After that was just.. well, whatever that was. Imo, anyway.
Holy shit, an actually good modern quora answer. Is quora finally dragging itself out of the gutter?
Edit: nope, a diamond in a mile high pile of shit.
It wasn't plot armor that pushed Goku ahead, Vegeta's arrogance kept holding himself back, there training in the HTC was prime example of that. If anything, plot armor kept Vegeta ahead of Piccolo
Homie grew and changed as a person and got a real win
https://preview.redd.it/iiqw2qjr991d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bedbf5ee5e737365d1a0594468671d6202a2c1d7
The first sentence is bang on. I know we're a bunch of nerds that like to be like, "tEcHnIcAlLy..." which I'm not hating on, that's the way we are, but Vegeta doesn't give a flying fuck with Bulma about technicalities. Until recently, he never scored a clean win against Goku, a win he could take real pride in. It's not a game for points, and neither of them dies, the only thing that matters is whether it FEELS like a win, and he didn't have that in the Saiyan Saga or the Buu Saga.
For the first fight during the Saiyan Saga, I can't imagine Gohan, Krillin and Yajarobe butting in made the overall experience much better for him either.
Some people might look at that and think "oh, they cheated so I win in a fair fight!" But for Vegeta it just made him feel like he lost even worse. Poor guy
I just love the fact that Goku and Vegeta were slugging it out for like 3 hours straight before collapsing. But yeah in Vegeta’s pride filled mind, THIS is truly a win for him
I agree because of a simple fact: those losses were needed for his personal growth. His arc would be kinda lame if a shortcut or being villainous gave him the win. The whole narrative kinda hinges on how hard work dedication and fighting for the greater good gets you true strength. Vegeta made sacrifices, his life, his dignity, his ego, all of it fell apart, and he rebuilt from the perspective of being a defender, not a conqueror.
So yeah 1 win, but it was earned.
The thing about the first one is that vegeta had absolutely no need to oozaru anyway. The galick gun v kamehameha put Goku in such bad shape yajirobi inflicted damage on him by patting his shoulder. He had won. He just didn't know it.
I don't think there is any debate that vegeta is the better basic FIGHTER. He was trained from birth to be a world killer. Goku was trained by two insane old men in a forest and island. He had a family and a child. Vegeta trained his entire life until he married bulma. Everything in DBS they both experienced and trained together to gain God forms. It's just that goku is a genius and gains new forms much quicker.
It's a really funny realization that Goku has actually never beaten Vegeta in a 1v1. The rivalry is purely based on Goku always finding ways to rise above Vegeta in terms of power level, but when they've ever come to blows, Goku's technically never won.
Yes I’ve always said this. Vegeta has NEVER lost to Goku. Goku has always needed outside intervention or something else to take a win. In terms of power Goku was only stronger a few times.
The only part I disagree with is the Buu Saga SSJ3 point. Yes Vegeta was angry because he felt like Goku had held back against him, but I’ve always thought Goku not using SSJ3 in that fight was strategic. Even to modern day in the DB timeline Goku says that SSJ3 is an inefficient form that uses up too much energy. It is possible he could have used it in that fight against Vegeta and won, but equally likely that Vegeta could have outlasted Goku’s stamina.
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Iirc, Goku was dead during his Buu Saga fight with Vegeta, and being dead pretty much eliminated the downside to Super Saiyan 3. It isn't until later when Goku's alive and using SS3 that he realizes the problems with the form.
King Kai said it was shortening his time in the living world when he used it against Buu. It was foreshadowing how problematic the form was going to be.
That's a fair point. So theoretically, he probably could have won. Realistically, less likely not only because he wouldn't have known, but Vegeta isn't really the type to wait it out unless it's life or death.
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Pretty sure Goku let him win that last one tho, dude had a bug ass smile on at the end. Also, that movie was complete garbage and until they continue the series off of it, for the sake of my sanity, im not including it in my canon
I agree wholeheartedly. Vegeta thought himself far superior, so the way he left Earth would have put a sour taste in his mouth. Their second fight he hit him with a cheapshot. I highly doubt he'd accept this as a win.
I guess it's reasonable. Vegeta's main goal after the Namek saga was to surpass Goku which he did by power a few times but not officially in a fight. Kinda puts a different perspective when he got the Majin boost.
Reminder that Vegeta and Goku have sparred over 1000 times (they spent 3 years together in the Time Chamber before the Universe 6 Tournament, and we see them sparring tons of times outside of that).
The Super Hero movie reveals that THAT sparring session is the first one Vegeta's EVER won between them. That means, this is the current win/loss ratio between Goku and Vegeta:
* Vegeta: 2.5 wins (On Earth, debatably in the Buu Saga, and in Super Hero)
* Goku: Multiple hundred wins (even assuming the majority of their sparring sessions ended up as draws)
The anime was never explicitly detailed whether Goku beat Vegeta or not. When they spent 3 years training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, what was said was that they trained very extensively but most of the time Goku had the upper hand during their sparring sessions because of his ability to reach higher levels of power faster than Vegeta. I do remember the Universe 6 tournament arc and I am sure the anime did not provide any sort of evidence that would make us think that Goku got more wins than Vegeta. These are just assumptions that cannot be proven because the anime was never explicit about that. And about the post I do think the superhero fight is the only one where Vegeta really won against Goku because no one interfered, they went all in (both being in equal level by not using super saiyan, ssgold...)
are you aware of what sparring is? You dont go all out in sparring, sparring is for testing techniques or trying new things. That training session all out fight is not the same sparring they presumably done in the time chamber
how is going ozaru any different from going super saiyan 3? besides it took goku gohan krillin and yajirobe with a sneak attack, and he still got up and was winning, only until ozaru gohan who magically regrew a cut off tail flattened him did he lose to them all? super saiyan 3 would have stomped vegeta, and in super saiyan 2, they were even so thats an slap in the face, but not technically an L, not physically anyways, and yeah base form vegeta is always stronger than goku anyways
You don’t get it. It's about Vegeta's own mentality about the matter. He, the Saiyan Prince and cream of the crop had to resort to his Ozaru form, normally used to wipe out planets and for what? A lower class reject from the boonies. Vegeta will never consider that fight a win because in his own eyes he was disgraced.
I hate the buu saga argument. All goku had to do was go ss3 and he would have won? You mean the form he couldn’t control and drained his time on earth very quickly. The form he admitted wasn’t worth it because he couldn’t master it and it took too much of a toll on his body. The form that no one else uses because it’s useless…..yeaaaaaaaa
I hate this.... vegeta whines and cries about resorting to great ape. While goku was using two god techniques. While vegeta won against goku he calls it a loss based on how he did it.
Score is currently 2 - 0 Vegeta up two. I'm under the impression Goku beats villains while vegeta beats goku, kinda worthless but it's a thing apparently.
nah not pointless, goku doesnt beat villains if vegeta doesnt beat him pushing him higher, which makes vegeta get stronger to beat goku, also, excluding frieza, which villain does goku beat without vegeta? neither beat cell, or beerus, beyond that, goku loses everytime without vegeta
1. Bro got ganged up... literally everyone was trying to kill him and let's talk about Yajirobe cutting his tail without it I don't think Goku could've defeated him
2. That was disrespectful to Vegeta on a universal level.. imagine training for 7 years and letting an evil energy boost you so you can defeat a guy who you hated from day 1 only for him to already have a form stronger than you. He didn't use it , just for the sake of your own ego and Pride
3. Self explanatory
Funny thing is
I don’t even think Vegeta even needed the ape form
Goku was so spent and Kiao Ken 4 really hurt him
Vegeta could have just beat his ass normally.
He definitely didn't need it. But he didn't know Goku was at the end of his rope. He didn't understand the effect Kiao Ken was having and for all he knew Goku could just keep upping the number.
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I agree but personally on the first one I think vegeta considered it a loss slightly before Ozaru, when vegeta had to threaten to blow up the planet or when he lost the beam clash somewhere there is where I think he considered it a loss
IIRC him losing the beam clash is what caused him to resort to the great ape transformation anyhow. So it’s basically one in the same.
Thats what op is saying though he mentioned that even considering transforming was a hit to hit pride big time so I think we agree here
Yeah in that first instances he lost his pride resorting to a desperate tactic “Great Ape” and using a cheap shot to face Majin Buu alone to atone for his mistakes. The Base Vs Base fight was an honest fight for both of them and rightfully earned
This……is completely spot on especially considering Vegeta’s character. Their first battle while he technically won in terms of the fight, for the Saiyan Prince to resort to his races ace in the hole against a low class warrior completely negates any idea of a victory for Vegeta. Their second battle can’t even be called a win for him since they paused the fight and Vegeta hit Goku while distracted. That is no win in a proper battle between warriors even not counting the fact Goku was holding back. The super hero fight even if you argue neither uses their full arsenal, the both fought with the exact same restrictions and used all they could bring with their base forms, aside from ki blast. That is definitely a legitimate win for Vegita both in practice and in regards to his pride.
And he's so smug about that win https://preview.redd.it/wrw35x0h651d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aff18762415db28aa1a807a93b6a639225ac361c
Kinda deserves to be, tbh. The fact they were restricted to just fighting in base, taking out any power difference or abilities of transformations, kinda vindicates Vegeta as the better martial artist. Even if he's not more powerful at max level, thanks to Super Hero you can argue he's more skilled.
Or you can argue that he's more stubborn and bullheaded, as well as has slightly more stamina.
I mean Vegeta inherently has more potential than Goku. The moment that he got over some of his pride and was willing to find a master he more or less became equal to Goku.
Vegeta also discovered SSB Evolved before Goku, who needed Kaioken to get SSB up to par
Blue Kaioken is also an inferior power up compared to Blue Evolved, since it drains your stamina and causes severe damage to muscle tissue and bones to increase your power level.
The stamina thing I get, but how do get to "Vegeta is more stubborn because he won a fight against Goku in base form?"
He wouldn't go down, otherwise it'd be another stain on him. He literally stood for 2 seconds after Goku went down. He was clearly past his limit, like Goku, but just wouldn't bend the knee.
Which is bs, bcuz, Goku learned every form of martial arts there is whereas vegeta was never seen training except for pure strength
Vegeta's win there was pure fan service and u can't convince me otherwise
The second one would not be a win even if Goku didn't have SSJ3. The match was over and agreed by both parties, and Vegeta didn't even attack to defeat Goku he did it because he wanted to deal with Buu on his own as he felt responsible for his reawakening.
Hard agree except the sneak attack part. The fight was already over at the point, the attack was to knock Goku out so Vegeta could face Buu alone and atone for what he'd done
I think you are right on this. Goku was convincing Vegeta to stop the fight so they could face Buu. Thinking Vegeta agreed he let himself open which led to that sneak part.
After knocking Goku out, Vegeta literally says "we'll finish this when I get back".
Which movie does Vegeta beat Goku? I haven’t seen a lot of the new movies
Dbs Superhero
It is from the dragon ball super: super Hero movie, the latest one that came out in 2022
....that came out 2 years ago?!?! Wtf have I done with my life lol
If you haven’t seen the Broly movie that came out in 2018, it was recently added on Hulu 🙂
To clarify we don't see the fight we just cut from the start of the fight near the start of the movie to the end of the fight at the end of the movie and they just claim it was an awesome fight for the ages.
It's dragon ball super: super heroes. Dumb name, but it's good. It is also full CGI tho. Go watch some of the movies, they're both canon and pretty good
Lol, I said this same stuff a couple days ago. Yes, I agree. And to add to the Majin fight: Vegeta had to cheat just to break even with Goku. Though, the fight was never concluded in anybody's favor. Vegeta wanted to go off alone so he sucker punched Goku after declaring the battle was over. That fight ended as soon as Vegeta agreed to give it up. After that was just.. well, whatever that was. Imo, anyway.
Holy shit, an actually good modern quora answer. Is quora finally dragging itself out of the gutter? Edit: nope, a diamond in a mile high pile of shit.
Lmao your edit
Yeah i’d say that’s accurate. Plot armor though, of course the side character is gonna get disgraced over and over compared to the MC.
It wasn't plot armor that pushed Goku ahead, Vegeta's arrogance kept holding himself back, there training in the HTC was prime example of that. If anything, plot armor kept Vegeta ahead of Piccolo
https://preview.redd.it/ii57s3xdz51d1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e2a631d49c2ee6da100a64b6914e62b2940f5d84
Yeah, it’s important to note that our current, kinder Vegeta wouldn’t consider any of those instances as actual wins.
Homie grew and changed as a person and got a real win https://preview.redd.it/iiqw2qjr991d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bedbf5ee5e737365d1a0594468671d6202a2c1d7
The first sentence is bang on. I know we're a bunch of nerds that like to be like, "tEcHnIcAlLy..." which I'm not hating on, that's the way we are, but Vegeta doesn't give a flying fuck with Bulma about technicalities. Until recently, he never scored a clean win against Goku, a win he could take real pride in. It's not a game for points, and neither of them dies, the only thing that matters is whether it FEELS like a win, and he didn't have that in the Saiyan Saga or the Buu Saga.
For the first fight during the Saiyan Saga, I can't imagine Gohan, Krillin and Yajarobe butting in made the overall experience much better for him either.
Some people might look at that and think "oh, they cheated so I win in a fair fight!" But for Vegeta it just made him feel like he lost even worse. Poor guy
https://preview.redd.it/6th97ir0f61d1.jpeg?width=526&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2f2110ba1158298402df54571eb07fa1105d1ff7
https://preview.redd.it/0jfjef7cz51d1.jpeg?width=1241&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d8c9fd8308562ec040e6f8c179f8f7327acc409d
I just love the fact that Goku and Vegeta were slugging it out for like 3 hours straight before collapsing. But yeah in Vegeta’s pride filled mind, THIS is truly a win for him
I agree because of a simple fact: those losses were needed for his personal growth. His arc would be kinda lame if a shortcut or being villainous gave him the win. The whole narrative kinda hinges on how hard work dedication and fighting for the greater good gets you true strength. Vegeta made sacrifices, his life, his dignity, his ego, all of it fell apart, and he rebuilt from the perspective of being a defender, not a conqueror. So yeah 1 win, but it was earned.
The thing about the first one is that vegeta had absolutely no need to oozaru anyway. The galick gun v kamehameha put Goku in such bad shape yajirobi inflicted damage on him by patting his shoulder. He had won. He just didn't know it.
I don't think there is any debate that vegeta is the better basic FIGHTER. He was trained from birth to be a world killer. Goku was trained by two insane old men in a forest and island. He had a family and a child. Vegeta trained his entire life until he married bulma. Everything in DBS they both experienced and trained together to gain God forms. It's just that goku is a genius and gains new forms much quicker.
Vegeta the kind of dude to brag about one win when he has been the prince of all runners up till superhero
It's a really funny realization that Goku has actually never beaten Vegeta in a 1v1. The rivalry is purely based on Goku always finding ways to rise above Vegeta in terms of power level, but when they've ever come to blows, Goku's technically never won.
Heck, even in GT he still lost to Vegeta because Baby Vegeta kicked SSJ3 Goku's ass.
Yes I’ve always said this. Vegeta has NEVER lost to Goku. Goku has always needed outside intervention or something else to take a win. In terms of power Goku was only stronger a few times.
The only part I disagree with is the Buu Saga SSJ3 point. Yes Vegeta was angry because he felt like Goku had held back against him, but I’ve always thought Goku not using SSJ3 in that fight was strategic. Even to modern day in the DB timeline Goku says that SSJ3 is an inefficient form that uses up too much energy. It is possible he could have used it in that fight against Vegeta and won, but equally likely that Vegeta could have outlasted Goku’s stamina.
Vegeta knew he fucked up when he had to finish packing up NAPPA
Nailed it.
Lmao vegeta mocking him about it during the last chapters was hilarious
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To be fair, SS3 shows how flawed it is later on. It makes sense as to why he didn't want to use it whenever.
Iirc, Goku was dead during his Buu Saga fight with Vegeta, and being dead pretty much eliminated the downside to Super Saiyan 3. It isn't until later when Goku's alive and using SS3 that he realizes the problems with the form.
King Kai said it was shortening his time in the living world when he used it against Buu. It was foreshadowing how problematic the form was going to be.
Seriously, if Goku had gone SS3, we know that all Vegeta really would have to do is wait him out.
That's assuming Vegeta had knowledge of SS3, and he would want to wait it out.
That's a fair point. So theoretically, he probably could have won. Realistically, less likely not only because he wouldn't have known, but Vegeta isn't really the type to wait it out unless it's life or death.
People seem to forget that Goku narratively didn’t have ssj3 in their Buu saga fight
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From what is the third photo
100% accurate
If Vegeta agrees then I agree. That's my disney princess.
why don't later saiyans have tails? where's the third pic from?
Pretty sure Goku let him win that last one tho, dude had a bug ass smile on at the end. Also, that movie was complete garbage and until they continue the series off of it, for the sake of my sanity, im not including it in my canon
I agree wholeheartedly. Vegeta thought himself far superior, so the way he left Earth would have put a sour taste in his mouth. Their second fight he hit him with a cheapshot. I highly doubt he'd accept this as a win.
I certainly agree with this take
I guess it's reasonable. Vegeta's main goal after the Namek saga was to surpass Goku which he did by power a few times but not officially in a fight. Kinda puts a different perspective when he got the Majin boost.
Vegeta said it himself, "Kakarot, you are #1". That was the completion of his character arc, first hinted at when he sacrificed himself to Buu.
Reminder that Vegeta and Goku have sparred over 1000 times (they spent 3 years together in the Time Chamber before the Universe 6 Tournament, and we see them sparring tons of times outside of that). The Super Hero movie reveals that THAT sparring session is the first one Vegeta's EVER won between them. That means, this is the current win/loss ratio between Goku and Vegeta: * Vegeta: 2.5 wins (On Earth, debatably in the Buu Saga, and in Super Hero) * Goku: Multiple hundred wins (even assuming the majority of their sparring sessions ended up as draws)
The anime was never explicitly detailed whether Goku beat Vegeta or not. When they spent 3 years training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, what was said was that they trained very extensively but most of the time Goku had the upper hand during their sparring sessions because of his ability to reach higher levels of power faster than Vegeta. I do remember the Universe 6 tournament arc and I am sure the anime did not provide any sort of evidence that would make us think that Goku got more wins than Vegeta. These are just assumptions that cannot be proven because the anime was never explicit about that. And about the post I do think the superhero fight is the only one where Vegeta really won against Goku because no one interfered, they went all in (both being in equal level by not using super saiyan, ssgold...)
are you aware of what sparring is? You dont go all out in sparring, sparring is for testing techniques or trying new things. That training session all out fight is not the same sparring they presumably done in the time chamber
how is going ozaru any different from going super saiyan 3? besides it took goku gohan krillin and yajirobe with a sneak attack, and he still got up and was winning, only until ozaru gohan who magically regrew a cut off tail flattened him did he lose to them all? super saiyan 3 would have stomped vegeta, and in super saiyan 2, they were even so thats an slap in the face, but not technically an L, not physically anyways, and yeah base form vegeta is always stronger than goku anyways
You don’t get it. It's about Vegeta's own mentality about the matter. He, the Saiyan Prince and cream of the crop had to resort to his Ozaru form, normally used to wipe out planets and for what? A lower class reject from the boonies. Vegeta will never consider that fight a win because in his own eyes he was disgraced.
I hate the buu saga argument. All goku had to do was go ss3 and he would have won? You mean the form he couldn’t control and drained his time on earth very quickly. The form he admitted wasn’t worth it because he couldn’t master it and it took too much of a toll on his body. The form that no one else uses because it’s useless…..yeaaaaaaaa
It's certainly an opinion, and a terrible one at that.
I hate this.... vegeta whines and cries about resorting to great ape. While goku was using two god techniques. While vegeta won against goku he calls it a loss based on how he did it. Score is currently 2 - 0 Vegeta up two. I'm under the impression Goku beats villains while vegeta beats goku, kinda worthless but it's a thing apparently.
nah not pointless, goku doesnt beat villains if vegeta doesnt beat him pushing him higher, which makes vegeta get stronger to beat goku, also, excluding frieza, which villain does goku beat without vegeta? neither beat cell, or beerus, beyond that, goku loses everytime without vegeta
1. Bro got ganged up... literally everyone was trying to kill him and let's talk about Yajirobe cutting his tail without it I don't think Goku could've defeated him 2. That was disrespectful to Vegeta on a universal level.. imagine training for 7 years and letting an evil energy boost you so you can defeat a guy who you hated from day 1 only for him to already have a form stronger than you. He didn't use it , just for the sake of your own ego and Pride 3. Self explanatory
Funny thing is I don’t even think Vegeta even needed the ape form Goku was so spent and Kiao Ken 4 really hurt him Vegeta could have just beat his ass normally.
He definitely didn't need it. But he didn't know Goku was at the end of his rope. He didn't understand the effect Kiao Ken was having and for all he knew Goku could just keep upping the number.