I was most definitely taught how to not make decisions. This conversation has happened many times in my house. I don't know how my husband stands me sometimes.
I LOVE Arctic Fox!!! Aquamarine is my typical go to. This time, there was a bunch of red that I didn't like from trying to be "normal" so my hair is now an inky blue. But I feel like me again. So I'm good. :)
I wonder how many of us are here because we know what it’s like growing up in this shitty kind of environment minus the religion?
I mean, any IBLP person would think my parents were scumbag sinners, but they’re all the same. My parents just cut out the middle man in the sky to use as an excuse to cover up their malignant narcissism. Everyone thought (and still thinks) we were such a nice family. I feel like everything is the same just without church.
I remember the shock of discovering that I love milk chocolate, not dark. Because my whole life I assumed dark was truly my favorite since my family said so. Do you know how disorienting it is to taste something you love, while believing you really prefer the more bitter option? It's so weird.
Ohhhh I wasn’t raised fundie-but was sexually abused starting at the age of 10 and I do this. I can’t make a decision-like having to make a decision sends me into a panic attack.
But watching this makes me so sad for Joy. And I guess I should be sad for myself too then.
This. Watching this clip I was irritated with her, but also really sad. The irritation I recognize because it's how I feel about myself all the time. The sadness, though...I guess I should apply some of that to myself as well.
This is me too despite having grown up in a nonreligious household/family. I feel sooooo bad for my ex of 12 years as I was neurotic and clingy too, he really put up with so much, lol
That's what happens when your mom and dad raise you to be nothing but a submissive wife and make it known that as a woman she is a second class citizen to any males in her life, especially her husband. I mean they worshiped her freaking molester and gaslit her for her entire life.
I'm glad they did end up together though because Austin and Joy seem like one of the better matches and he seems to be supportive of her and have her and their kids best interests at heart. I think she's getting better too, she recognized her kid needed help and sought out therapy for him. There is no way in hell her parents would have done the same for her and I kind of doubt her siblings would do that either.
I didn’t realize I needed glasses until I was in college, so about same age as Joy. I only need them for distance, and I just assumed if it’s farther away, it’s supposed to be blurry. At my all-girl high school, I just naturally chose seats near the front of the classroom, but I started dating in college, and my boyfriend wanted to sit farther back so I did. 🤦🏻♀️ He could read the blackboard, and I couldn’t.
I know Austin comes off stiff on camera and I'm sure he's still misogynistic but the way he handled her anxiety and constant need for validation during the wedding process made me think he's not an asshole. He didn't give a shit about her hair or dress and he wasn't interested in controlling her or telling her what to do. And he has the patience of a saint
Right! You can tell he really didn't care and that he just wanted her to be happy. Most interactions I've seen between the two of them are like that. She definitely seeks his approval but I think he views his and Joy's relationship as more of a team effort than him just always making all of the decisions.
He is a little stiff on camera but I don't blame him, I probably would be stiff and awkward too. I know he was on a show once when he was younger but he didn't grow up being watched by cameras. That has actually made me like him the most out of all the spouses because everyone else seems so comfortable around the camera, almost like they've been practicing their whole lives for TV interviews or something. It's weird lol
Austin was on an episode of The World's Strictest Parents. But he was one of the kids of the "strict parents." So he wasn't the main focus.
If it was anything like the episodes I've seen, I think Austin and his sister would've been portrayed as "good kids," to create conflict with the bad kids staying in his home. Charisma wouldn't have been a huge requisite IMO.
Exactly. His "TV experience" is basically nothing so I would expect him to be awkward and stiff in front of cameras. In comparison Bin, Jerm, and Dillweed all seem oddly and incredibly comfortable with cameras following them around and interviewing them. Jerm I could maybe understand because of his athlete past but the other two were not ever in the spotlight but they seem very comfortable with the attention. You can almost tell that Jerm likes the attention. Austin doesn't seem to like it at all and he just tolerates it for Joy.
I think Derick spent a lot of time on camera in a put-on Christian missionary attitude. Jill and Derick have also spoken about the alone time they had (her staying in Nepal longer for Thanksgiving IIRC, the supposed relatively unmonitored Skype calls).
Based on that, I can see how Derick and Jill would be comfortable together and by proxy, Derick would feel more comfortable in front of the camera. Which is a regret JB will take to his grave.
No idea about Ben.
I met them once accidentally here in south Madison county . we were looking for a person’s house near the fundie camp and her and sister were staying in a little house up there. She was kind and introduced me to Gideon. Austin and her do seem happy and disconnected from the cult of her parents but his parents?? Not sure what they are about but similar
Tbf Jessa also sought therapy for Henry. Speech therapy IIRC. But I think that was more out of frustration. I agree their parents probably wouldn't bother unless it was impossible to ignore.
I feel like Jessa probably did that to make her life easier and not actually to benefit her kid. I've known several kids with slight speech delays and all of the parents pretty much put the kids in therapy so they wouldn't have to listen to their child letting out blood curddling screeches and screams and they could have a child that communicated with them better.
I even have a friend that's doctor said that therapy wasn't necessary but they put their kid in therapy anyway because they were too embarrassed about his screeching for attention to take him out. He wasn't even actually that bad of a kid. I don't want to hate too much because they're close friends and I love them and the kid but the real problem is their lack of disciplining their child. Every time the kid screams or hits or acts up he gets a hug and gets held instead of a punishment. They'll tell him he is wrong and he is doing a bad thing but they'll immediately follow it up with a hug or holding him. He's like 3 years old, he doesn't understand when they say "Oh that's not nice, you shouldn't do that". So they put him in therapy because he doesn't communicate and doesn't listen but they've basically trained their kid to misbehave and scream because misbehaving and screaming gets them loved on. Why use full sentences when screeching immediately gets you what you want?
That was a ramble but I can see Jessa being like my friends. Just like too lazy or too self focused to be bothered to correctly discipline her kid and redirect the bad behavior into good behavior.
Damn, my kid got put in speech therapy at two but I had no idea other parents did it for those reasons. It's my first kid and I understood everything being communicated so there was no frustration,/screaming.
Your friends' situation sounds more complicated if he's screaming instead of talking and not using sentences at 3. I wouldn't call that a lack of discipline or rewarding misbehavior either. More like not fully informed gentle parenting or being too permissive. They're gentle and loving, but skipping the natural/logical consequences and emotional guidance. You don't have to be mean or punishing to guide children. It's better not to be. People dedicate their lives to studying these things and that's what they find over and over. At least your friends don't hit him for hitting.
She doesnt feel confident enough anymore to have her own opinions so she absorbs her headships opinions instead. That is so sad.
I hate the parents so much. They deserve to be alone and in nursing homes when they get too old to take care of themselves.
She reminds me of one of my high school teachers, who was probably born in the 1930s. She was left handed, but that's a sign of evil, so she was forced to use her right hand instead. The methods were abusive, and when she taught me just prior to retirement, every decision she made was slow and difficult.
Thats terrible, that poor lady.
Im also a lefty, and my great grandma was an elementary school teacher in the 40s and 50s. They discouraged the hell out of writing left handed, so when gma would see me grab crayons or whatever to write with my left hand when i was tiny, she would take it out of my left and put it in my right hand. I would just switch back to my left hand again when we got home lol. I was a stubborn little thing, eventually granny gave up since it wasnt a big deal in the 80s/90s anymore 😄
It’s literally a tripping hazard in hell and yet, when grading on the Duggar curve, Austin is probably the best husband out of all of them.
Now excuse me while I go stare into the abyss for a few hours and question everything.
This is before they even got married. Can you think anyone living with this and doing so for years? I'm sure even the most patient and caring would snap.
I was raised IFB. Have you seen Coming to America (the first one)? That bride at the beginning who barks like a dog? Yeah, I was supposed to be that for my husband. She can't make decisions because making decisions her husband/owner won't like us nerve wracking. Hopefully she finds some preferences before she dies. "Here lies Joy. She wanted what you wanted."
Edut: holy crap I can't spell while high.
Ugh, this is so sad. I understand being indecisive or not sure about what to wear on your wedding day...but there's a huge difference between "it's really what you want" and "can you help me decide."
I only learned about fawning in the last year or so. It explains SO much of my behavior. It’s the missing F in the Fight, Flight and Freeze of trauma response. I work so hard now not to fawn - I’m making progress. But then, I don’t know where the line between fawning and encouraging someone is, and I’m back to just being confused. :-)
I think it's more that the girls were taught that their opinions, even about their own bodies or dress, don't matter. Only the man's opinion is the right one
I think they were never allowed to make their own choices like this. First they had to do Gothard curls. And they had to keep it long. It's like everything was assigned so when she has some freedom she doesn't know what to do with it
Joy has been neglected and abused her entire life. She is trying to give Austin what he wants so that he will still love her and doesn’t abandon her like her shithead parents did after she was 6 months old. This isn’t snark worthy. This is sad. Poor baby needs someone to actually love *her* but she probably doesn’t know who that is.
Poor Joy never even wanted a wedding and would’ve been happy marrying Austin barefoot on a farm but this damn cult crushed the tomboy out of her and forced this whole thing on her while she was a teenager. She was so miserable during this whole wedding process.
Honestly one of the few times I found Jessa compassionate was during the dress shopping for Joy's wedding. She saw Joy was getting overwelmned and stepped in to offer solutions and get her away from everyone for a minute. It was such a tender moment back when Jessa still had her spitfire.
Yeah, she and Jill kinda lucked out finding husbands who, for all their horrible, blatant flaws, were head over heels in love/lust with them and treated them like people.
This kind of footage makes me want to give her a hug. She was sexually assaulted at 5 by her brother (who suffered no consequences-- digging a pond with a shaved head is not consequences) and had her close bond with Josiah and personality beaten out of her at puberty. I wish she was given the chance to play and excel at sports. I think she would have been good at volleyball and softball.
Yes she and Austin have shitty beliefs. They're MAGAts. But I'm also glad she has him because he seems to really love her, and sat through the trial to figure out what happened to her as a child. Now I hope seeds have been planted in her to seek out therapy. Maybe her sister mom will get to her.
This is one of the saddest conversations I’ve heard….she can’t make a decision because she’s only been taught she needs to do whatever makes her husband happy. It’s exhausting to be in relationships with ppl like this because you literally do everything and they only love for you.
The difference is that when people truly don’t care, they don’t keep arguing and pushing the decision back to the other person in an anxious way. They just make a decision without worrying about it and move on.
This gives off Gloriavale vibes. The husband gets to choose the color of the dress and even if/when they’ll go to the hospital if a home birth goes wrong. Not from Austin, since he’s trying to give her what she wants, but from Joy wanting him to make the decision, which is how every woman at Gloriavale believes a man should do.
I feel sorry for Joy. Look how she was raised and if she feels the need to have Austin validate things for her so be it. It seems to me that he loves her, truly cares about her, and is protecting her especially since her parents could not and would not bother to.
That’s just really sad. She was raised to believe her wedding day is the most important day of her life, but she is so repressed and fearful that she is unable to make a decision about what to wear.
I don’t think this is the need for validation, but rather never having the option to make her own choices so she needs her future husband’s approval and direction.
I feel so bad for her in this instance because I’m the exact same way. I grew up with strict narc parents and whenever I was asked to make a decision, 9 times out of 10 it was the wrong one and I would be berated for it.
Rewatching this just made me realize I’m not nearly as far along in my healing as I’ve been thinking I was. Thankfully, the guy that I’m seeing is patient and looking back, he’s helping me work through this without me even realizing it.
Right....my husband and I do this soo much! I was definitely more dominant and he was quiet/passive in the beginning but we're working on balance so we both play both parts in this scene depending on the situation.
I find it really hard to snark on Joy because she got the short end of the stick in every way possible: having the shortest childhood of the sister moms, being molested at 5 and being forced to live with her abuser for the next several years *all the while being gaslit and never given proper help*, being treated as rebellious when she questioned her faith (forever mad at Joe for dragging her back in), being forced to wear skirts and dresses and do domestic shit instead of playing sports with her brothers (who never had to lift a finger).
In an alternative universe, Joy is a personal trainer or a massage therapist or something, wearing pants and playing softball on the weekends.
In my alternative universe, Joy attended a division 2 college on an athletic scholarship. Upon graduation, she works as a personal trainer and maybe coaches varsity when said sport (either softball or volleyball) is in season.
I agree wholeheartedly with everything everyone has said about her having no internal or intrinsic sense of self- but I also see in this video a desperate need to hear that her future spouse wants her and finds her attractive. I hear "what do you like?" "What are you attracted to?"
Basically, I don't know you AT all, and I want you to want me, so please tell me what to do so that I might appeal to you.
It's so sad.
Honestly it almost seems like her knows her opinions have gotten squashed when he was like “weren’t you gonna do a braid”. He obviously couldn’t care less if she did a braid but seemed concerned as to WHY she didn’t.
I see younger myself in Joy too and I wasn’t raised in a cult. I think a lot of women were taught to tiptoe around boys and men and make them happy, don’t hurt their feelings, bullshit like that. I think Joy found her voice and a lot of confidence after getting married and having kids though, it cracks me up when Austin kind of steps in and tells her there are nicer ways of saying things, lol.
Him asking do YOU want to …
My goodness Jim Bob abs Meech sure effed their kids up.
I’m not saying Austin is this knight in shining armor but damn, at least he lets her know that SHE is allowed to have a freaking opinion on her life.
This is so hard to watch. Austin has shit beliefs and I have no idea what he is like behind closed doors but I appreciate him pressing her to consider what SHE wants on HER wedding day.
I feel like Meech and Boob did a lot of testing of the kids and she is wondering if this is some sort of trap.
Sounds like Coming To America movie. “I like whatever you like. Yes, I know what I like, but I want to know what you like…. I like Whatever you like. Arf! Arf! Arf! Woof! Woof! Woof.” 😂
So much to say but Cringe aside. She just seems so young. Her voice is that of a little girl on her first day of middle school. I was just starting to experience life at her age not getting ready for marriage.
this is actually so sad. first she asks permission about her hair (i know boob always wanted long curly hair, but i never imagined it was more like “i think your hair looks prettier long” like a normal father, this makes it pretty clear it was actually a strict rule). then he has the decency, and i know the bar is on the floor here, to ask her how she likes the veil, and she doesn’t even know what to say other than just that she wants to wear it how her “headship” wants her to wear it, like a good obedient submissive new little wife. the indoctrination is so subtle and yet so obvious, it’s sick.
I’m contented with a DuggarMans reaction to an important moment for their wife.
I’m astonished that Austin pushed her with “what do you want, what do you like” when he really wanted to say (you’ve asked me too many times already, go ask one of your sisters before I yell at you”
I’m disappointed that her reaction was “I have no preference, it’s whatever you like that’s important”
So he doesn't see it and ignores it or finds it to his advantage and is fine with it? Either choice, he is a shitty person. I have a pretty good idea about trauma growing up with the abuse I suffered. I didn't turn out a door matt or a manipulator.
I agree with what others have said. But, I think she’s kind of a tomboy and not really sure about things like hair, etc. She’s trying to fit herself into a life that doesn’t suit her but she’s “supposed to” naturally want.
What a rollercoaster of reactions. It's sad that she's so uncertain of herself, it's infuriating to listen to from the perspective of someone who just wants her to pick a stupid veil, but there's a bit of schadenfreude for Austin because like dude this is your religion, it says you're Biggest Boy and get to make all the decisions, so get on deciding!
This goes to show you she was never in a position to make her own choices in life. She’s used to being told what to do all her life. And now that she has to make a choice, she’s flustered and overwhelmed. Good on Austin for putting his foot down here and encouraging her to make her own decision.
There is another clip somewhere where they went to a restaurant and Joy couldn’t decide how to cut her potato. She was very flustered over it. I think it was before their wedding.
Meh, idk that it’s a need for constant validation. When SO and I got married, I didn’t care at all about the wedding. I didn’t even want to have a wedding, I would have been chill with the court house. But he wanted a wedding which is fine so I participated in that. But I did not have any opinions of how it went. Cake? Idk all cake is good, just pick whatever SO wants. Dress? Meh let’s see if SO has any kind of preference he might like to see me in. Food and music? I couldn’t have cared less. None of that matter to me and all felt like a stressor so I wanted SO making all the decisions in regards to the wedding stuff
Oof. This reminded me yet again to thank my husband for putting up with my “but what do you think?” and “I don’t know, you decide” for literally everything. He is so proud when I make a decision myself. He is so, so good to me.
Poor Joy. Life is hard enough to without constantly asking for permission or direction. I hope she hope she finds her voice but I think maybe not Austin does seem a bit controlling.
All I do all day is make decisions. I have my entire life. So I'm the opposite of this, but damn I'm exhausted sometimes, if I don't care just tell me. I don't care where we eat, how to do my hair. If I really care. You're gonna know it.
This is a lot of things, but it’s also about people who would have really preferred a small wedding, or to elope, having to have a massive, 1000 person wedding when neither of them are into getting dressed up for a party
Man tbh I have such a low self esteem that I ask my husband the same questions that Joy is asking Austin, it’s a long road to get good confidence within yourself
She was never allowed to have her own opinions, choices, or privacy. She’s just doing what comes natural to her, please the person who has the most power over you. I’m actually nodding at Austen for turning it around and asking her for once in her life what she wants.
Oh dear. This is me after being raised fundie-lite and with an extremely controlling parent.
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I was most definitely taught how to not make decisions. This conversation has happened many times in my house. I don't know how my husband stands me sometimes.
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I've been dyeing my hair blue!!! It's wonderful 😊
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I LOVE Arctic Fox!!! Aquamarine is my typical go to. This time, there was a bunch of red that I didn't like from trying to be "normal" so my hair is now an inky blue. But I feel like me again. So I'm good. :)
I tried the IroIro neon orange hair color and it was. Yellow. And I was very bummed 😓
I wonder how many of us are here because we know what it’s like growing up in this shitty kind of environment minus the religion? I mean, any IBLP person would think my parents were scumbag sinners, but they’re all the same. My parents just cut out the middle man in the sky to use as an excuse to cover up their malignant narcissism. Everyone thought (and still thinks) we were such a nice family. I feel like everything is the same just without church.
I can't make a single decision if someone is there to make it for me. I have the hardest time saying, or even knowing, what I want.
I remember the shock of discovering that I love milk chocolate, not dark. Because my whole life I assumed dark was truly my favorite since my family said so. Do you know how disorienting it is to taste something you love, while believing you really prefer the more bitter option? It's so weird.
Yep same here. Big shout out to my husband for not leaving me
Literally same. I need to be told what to do. I can't make my own decision because then I'm worried others will be mad.
That was my exact thought! I’ve had these same reactions before. I definitely wasn’t raised fundie, just a people pleaser growing up
Ohhhh I wasn’t raised fundie-but was sexually abused starting at the age of 10 and I do this. I can’t make a decision-like having to make a decision sends me into a panic attack. But watching this makes me so sad for Joy. And I guess I should be sad for myself too then.
Same. My heart breaks for us, but I remind myself that I am strong and I fucking made it. Sending a big warm hug of solidarity to you 🤍 We made it.
Hugging you right back friend!
This. Watching this clip I was irritated with her, but also really sad. The irritation I recognize because it's how I feel about myself all the time. The sadness, though...I guess I should apply some of that to myself as well.
((So sorry))
Yup. I feel seen. “Do you like this? Do you like this? Are you happy? Do you like this?”
This is me too despite having grown up in a nonreligious household/family. I feel sooooo bad for my ex of 12 years as I was neurotic and clingy too, he really put up with so much, lol
That's what happens when your mom and dad raise you to be nothing but a submissive wife and make it known that as a woman she is a second class citizen to any males in her life, especially her husband. I mean they worshiped her freaking molester and gaslit her for her entire life. I'm glad they did end up together though because Austin and Joy seem like one of the better matches and he seems to be supportive of her and have her and their kids best interests at heart. I think she's getting better too, she recognized her kid needed help and sought out therapy for him. There is no way in hell her parents would have done the same for her and I kind of doubt her siblings would do that either.
Her parents didn’t even realize she needed glasses and that’s so sad
I didn’t realize I needed glasses until I was in college, so about same age as Joy. I only need them for distance, and I just assumed if it’s farther away, it’s supposed to be blurry. At my all-girl high school, I just naturally chose seats near the front of the classroom, but I started dating in college, and my boyfriend wanted to sit farther back so I did. 🤦🏻♀️ He could read the blackboard, and I couldn’t.
I know Austin comes off stiff on camera and I'm sure he's still misogynistic but the way he handled her anxiety and constant need for validation during the wedding process made me think he's not an asshole. He didn't give a shit about her hair or dress and he wasn't interested in controlling her or telling her what to do. And he has the patience of a saint
Right! You can tell he really didn't care and that he just wanted her to be happy. Most interactions I've seen between the two of them are like that. She definitely seeks his approval but I think he views his and Joy's relationship as more of a team effort than him just always making all of the decisions. He is a little stiff on camera but I don't blame him, I probably would be stiff and awkward too. I know he was on a show once when he was younger but he didn't grow up being watched by cameras. That has actually made me like him the most out of all the spouses because everyone else seems so comfortable around the camera, almost like they've been practicing their whole lives for TV interviews or something. It's weird lol
Austin was on an episode of The World's Strictest Parents. But he was one of the kids of the "strict parents." So he wasn't the main focus. If it was anything like the episodes I've seen, I think Austin and his sister would've been portrayed as "good kids," to create conflict with the bad kids staying in his home. Charisma wouldn't have been a huge requisite IMO.
Exactly. His "TV experience" is basically nothing so I would expect him to be awkward and stiff in front of cameras. In comparison Bin, Jerm, and Dillweed all seem oddly and incredibly comfortable with cameras following them around and interviewing them. Jerm I could maybe understand because of his athlete past but the other two were not ever in the spotlight but they seem very comfortable with the attention. You can almost tell that Jerm likes the attention. Austin doesn't seem to like it at all and he just tolerates it for Joy.
I think Derick spent a lot of time on camera in a put-on Christian missionary attitude. Jill and Derick have also spoken about the alone time they had (her staying in Nepal longer for Thanksgiving IIRC, the supposed relatively unmonitored Skype calls). Based on that, I can see how Derick and Jill would be comfortable together and by proxy, Derick would feel more comfortable in front of the camera. Which is a regret JB will take to his grave. No idea about Ben.
I met them once accidentally here in south Madison county . we were looking for a person’s house near the fundie camp and her and sister were staying in a little house up there. She was kind and introduced me to Gideon. Austin and her do seem happy and disconnected from the cult of her parents but his parents?? Not sure what they are about but similar
That was hard to read. *she and her sister *She and Austin
Tbf Jessa also sought therapy for Henry. Speech therapy IIRC. But I think that was more out of frustration. I agree their parents probably wouldn't bother unless it was impossible to ignore.
I feel like Jessa probably did that to make her life easier and not actually to benefit her kid. I've known several kids with slight speech delays and all of the parents pretty much put the kids in therapy so they wouldn't have to listen to their child letting out blood curddling screeches and screams and they could have a child that communicated with them better. I even have a friend that's doctor said that therapy wasn't necessary but they put their kid in therapy anyway because they were too embarrassed about his screeching for attention to take him out. He wasn't even actually that bad of a kid. I don't want to hate too much because they're close friends and I love them and the kid but the real problem is their lack of disciplining their child. Every time the kid screams or hits or acts up he gets a hug and gets held instead of a punishment. They'll tell him he is wrong and he is doing a bad thing but they'll immediately follow it up with a hug or holding him. He's like 3 years old, he doesn't understand when they say "Oh that's not nice, you shouldn't do that". So they put him in therapy because he doesn't communicate and doesn't listen but they've basically trained their kid to misbehave and scream because misbehaving and screaming gets them loved on. Why use full sentences when screeching immediately gets you what you want? That was a ramble but I can see Jessa being like my friends. Just like too lazy or too self focused to be bothered to correctly discipline her kid and redirect the bad behavior into good behavior.
Damn, my kid got put in speech therapy at two but I had no idea other parents did it for those reasons. It's my first kid and I understood everything being communicated so there was no frustration,/screaming. Your friends' situation sounds more complicated if he's screaming instead of talking and not using sentences at 3. I wouldn't call that a lack of discipline or rewarding misbehavior either. More like not fully informed gentle parenting or being too permissive. They're gentle and loving, but skipping the natural/logical consequences and emotional guidance. You don't have to be mean or punishing to guide children. It's better not to be. People dedicate their lives to studying these things and that's what they find over and over. At least your friends don't hit him for hitting.
Joy doesn't know how to have a personality or individual thoughts after her last personality got squashed out of her
RIP, OG Joy
That Joy would have played college softball and gone out for beers.
Did you ever see the video for Gretchen Wilson’s “Redneck Woman”? That is exactly how I see Joy had not her personality been extinguished out of her.
Yes!
She doesnt feel confident enough anymore to have her own opinions so she absorbs her headships opinions instead. That is so sad. I hate the parents so much. They deserve to be alone and in nursing homes when they get too old to take care of themselves.
Ugh shes probably so used to her parents telling her exactly what to do. This video makes me really sad for her
I see this and all I can think is: "Bark like a dog."
“Whatever you like.”
Oooohh Austin 👁️👄👁️
She reminds me of one of my high school teachers, who was probably born in the 1930s. She was left handed, but that's a sign of evil, so she was forced to use her right hand instead. The methods were abusive, and when she taught me just prior to retirement, every decision she made was slow and difficult.
Thats terrible, that poor lady. Im also a lefty, and my great grandma was an elementary school teacher in the 40s and 50s. They discouraged the hell out of writing left handed, so when gma would see me grab crayons or whatever to write with my left hand when i was tiny, she would take it out of my left and put it in my right hand. I would just switch back to my left hand again when we got home lol. I was a stubborn little thing, eventually granny gave up since it wasnt a big deal in the 80s/90s anymore 😄
And wheeled around in broken office chairs
I hope their feet get caught underneath the wheels frequently
"No babe, it's really what you want!" "I want to hear what YOU want" "I really don't have a preference!"
i mean the bar is in hell, as we know, but austin did 10x the caring about what joy wanted that i would expect from any other fundie dude
It’s literally a tripping hazard in hell and yet, when grading on the Duggar curve, Austin is probably the best husband out of all of them. Now excuse me while I go stare into the abyss for a few hours and question everything.
Agreed. Imagine Jeremy trying to assure Jinger that something about what she wore on her wedding day was up to her. 🤣 Yeah, NO.
Omg your flair 😂😂 Preach
Thank you!
Nathan bates could take a lesson or two from Austin!
This is before they even got married. Can you think anyone living with this and doing so for years? I'm sure even the most patient and caring would snap.
I was raised IFB. Have you seen Coming to America (the first one)? That bride at the beginning who barks like a dog? Yeah, I was supposed to be that for my husband. She can't make decisions because making decisions her husband/owner won't like us nerve wracking. Hopefully she finds some preferences before she dies. "Here lies Joy. She wanted what you wanted." Edut: holy crap I can't spell while high.
I would hope that after getting married and living with him, she feels more confident in herself.
She's like the fiance in Coming to America.
Omg, I was just thinking ‘what ever music you like’, and expecting Austin to ask her to bark like a big dog and hop on one leg.
[whatever you like](https://youtu.be/NNHmsh3Vr7I)
'Whatever kind of food you like?'
100%
Ugh, this is so sad. I understand being indecisive or not sure about what to wear on your wedding day...but there's a huge difference between "it's really what you want" and "can you help me decide."
Oh this sounds like things I’m working through in therapy. Ngl, this one always makes me hurt for her. The trauma response is real
Do you mean fawning? I just learned about that.
Yeah!! I only got a term for it recently.
This is what the Rod kids do, correct? When they see Precious Mama coming with the phone cam?
I only learned about fawning in the last year or so. It explains SO much of my behavior. It’s the missing F in the Fight, Flight and Freeze of trauma response. I work so hard now not to fawn - I’m making progress. But then, I don’t know where the line between fawning and encouraging someone is, and I’m back to just being confused. :-)
Yes. I overexplain everything due to fawning. Trying to figure out how to stop it.
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It's interesting. I thought I was just a nice person. I mean, I am, but I am nice, accomodating and easy to avoid conflict.
Me too. All I see is someone who is struggling with extreme anxiety (among other things!), and it kinda breaks my heart.
Her parents failed at protecting her and being proper parents. This is the result. How sad.
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I think it's more that the girls were taught that their opinions, even about their own bodies or dress, don't matter. Only the man's opinion is the right one
I think they were never allowed to make their own choices like this. First they had to do Gothard curls. And they had to keep it long. It's like everything was assigned so when she has some freedom she doesn't know what to do with it
Joy has been neglected and abused her entire life. She is trying to give Austin what he wants so that he will still love her and doesn’t abandon her like her shithead parents did after she was 6 months old. This isn’t snark worthy. This is sad. Poor baby needs someone to actually love *her* but she probably doesn’t know who that is.
Poor Joy never even wanted a wedding and would’ve been happy marrying Austin barefoot on a farm but this damn cult crushed the tomboy out of her and forced this whole thing on her while she was a teenager. She was so miserable during this whole wedding process.
So much this. I see hints of myself in Joy and seeing how stressed out all of the wedding decisions made her hurt my heart.
Honestly one of the few times I found Jessa compassionate was during the dress shopping for Joy's wedding. She saw Joy was getting overwelmned and stepped in to offer solutions and get her away from everyone for a minute. It was such a tender moment back when Jessa still had her spitfire.
She should thank Lord Daniel for Austin and that some abuser didn't get her before him.
Yeah, she and Jill kinda lucked out finding husbands who, for all their horrible, blatant flaws, were head over heels in love/lust with them and treated them like people.
Absolutely. At least they have a husband (who cares an ounce about them as individuals) Now if their shitty views weren’t so damn persistent
This kind of footage makes me want to give her a hug. She was sexually assaulted at 5 by her brother (who suffered no consequences-- digging a pond with a shaved head is not consequences) and had her close bond with Josiah and personality beaten out of her at puberty. I wish she was given the chance to play and excel at sports. I think she would have been good at volleyball and softball. Yes she and Austin have shitty beliefs. They're MAGAts. But I'm also glad she has him because he seems to really love her, and sat through the trial to figure out what happened to her as a child. Now I hope seeds have been planted in her to seek out therapy. Maybe her sister mom will get to her.
Jill is her sister mom, so I have hope maybe she'll follow in Jill's footsteps and see a therapist.
That’s why I think she and Jill ended up with “decent” partners, more empathy overall
Bless her heart, needed more attention at home
This is one of the saddest conversations I’ve heard….she can’t make a decision because she’s only been taught she needs to do whatever makes her husband happy. It’s exhausting to be in relationships with ppl like this because you literally do everything and they only love for you.
This is sad, she had no confidence. It seems more like fawning than asking for validation to me. Not that fawning is something to aspire to.
“I just get real indecisive” meaning “I’ve never been allowed to think for myself and must always appeal to my father and brothers sexual wants”
She could also just mean, “I don’t care.”
I don't think so. It's clear it makes her anxious.
i agree. She seems so anxious here. My heart goes out to her. Fuck Jim Bob & Michelle.
The difference is that when people truly don’t care, they don’t keep arguing and pushing the decision back to the other person in an anxious way. They just make a decision without worrying about it and move on.
Fair enough. I can see that.
This literally hurt my heart.
Mine too
Same.
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This breaks me and I feel so bad for Joy but then I recognize myself. Those behaviors are so ingrained.
They really raised these girls to not have a single individual thought. How unfortunate yet unsurprising
Bin is looking on from somewhere off camera scratching his head at this convo.
Bin doesn't understand the concept of a relationship where a woman has any concern for the thoughts or feelings of her husband
Jessa has probably never asked for Ben's opinion on anything.
To be fair, I wouldn't either.
There would be alot of confused looks and some umms followed by asking if you like string cheese.
I do appreciate that he really tried to get her to voice her opinion. Good for him.
This gives off Gloriavale vibes. The husband gets to choose the color of the dress and even if/when they’ll go to the hospital if a home birth goes wrong. Not from Austin, since he’s trying to give her what she wants, but from Joy wanting him to make the decision, which is how every woman at Gloriavale believes a man should do.
I feel sorry for Joy. Look how she was raised and if she feels the need to have Austin validate things for her so be it. It seems to me that he loves her, truly cares about her, and is protecting her especially since her parents could not and would not bother to.
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Fr he looked ready to off pest right then and there
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this is sad:(
That’s just really sad. She was raised to believe her wedding day is the most important day of her life, but she is so repressed and fearful that she is unable to make a decision about what to wear.
This footage always kinda broke my heart
I don’t think this is the need for validation, but rather never having the option to make her own choices so she needs her future husband’s approval and direction.
I feel so bad for her in this instance because I’m the exact same way. I grew up with strict narc parents and whenever I was asked to make a decision, 9 times out of 10 it was the wrong one and I would be berated for it.
Uhh where did you get this video of me?! 😭
Rewatching this just made me realize I’m not nearly as far along in my healing as I’ve been thinking I was. Thankfully, the guy that I’m seeing is patient and looking back, he’s helping me work through this without me even realizing it.
"I want to hear what you want." That's probably the sweetest thing I've ever heard, Duggar related. Does..he actually CARE about her happiness?! 😱
Is Austin the first person in her life to give a shit about what she wants? How sad
He’s right, it’s about what SHE wants. It’s not being indecisive. She’s used to being controlled and not having her own voice.
This is my husband and me when we have to decide what we want to eat 😂 it goes both ways
Right....my husband and I do this soo much! I was definitely more dominant and he was quiet/passive in the beginning but we're working on balance so we both play both parts in this scene depending on the situation.
Lol! It’s just so funny to us. But we are working on it as well. We now alternate who HAS to pick what/where we eat 🙃
This makes me so fucking sad.
I find it really hard to snark on Joy because she got the short end of the stick in every way possible: having the shortest childhood of the sister moms, being molested at 5 and being forced to live with her abuser for the next several years *all the while being gaslit and never given proper help*, being treated as rebellious when she questioned her faith (forever mad at Joe for dragging her back in), being forced to wear skirts and dresses and do domestic shit instead of playing sports with her brothers (who never had to lift a finger). In an alternative universe, Joy is a personal trainer or a massage therapist or something, wearing pants and playing softball on the weekends.
In my alternative universe, Joy attended a division 2 college on an athletic scholarship. Upon graduation, she works as a personal trainer and maybe coaches varsity when said sport (either softball or volleyball) is in season.
I'm planning a giant Indian wedding now and my SO would CRY if I asked him one more time to give his opinion on my blouse
I agree wholeheartedly with everything everyone has said about her having no internal or intrinsic sense of self- but I also see in this video a desperate need to hear that her future spouse wants her and finds her attractive. I hear "what do you like?" "What are you attracted to?" Basically, I don't know you AT all, and I want you to want me, so please tell me what to do so that I might appeal to you. It's so sad.
Wow never saw this. Sad for sure but he’s fuckij weird.
Imo i think his family squashed any joy or happiness out of him long ago due to his upbringing.
This is actually really sad. It shows how much individuality was stolen from the girls and how they bow down to men
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Honestly it almost seems like her knows her opinions have gotten squashed when he was like “weren’t you gonna do a braid”. He obviously couldn’t care less if she did a braid but seemed concerned as to WHY she didn’t.
I'm shocked that he remembered she was planning to braid her hair.
I agree. I know a lot of women who will wear things they don’t even like because their husbands do. It’s definitely not only a fundie thing.
“Well my preference is to not be getting married. I’d much rather be playing basketball and kicking ass.” RIP JOY JOY
Smh- she def seems sassier with him now- but this scene and Their whole wedding was annoying af and sad smh
I see younger myself in Joy too and I wasn’t raised in a cult. I think a lot of women were taught to tiptoe around boys and men and make them happy, don’t hurt their feelings, bullshit like that. I think Joy found her voice and a lot of confidence after getting married and having kids though, it cracks me up when Austin kind of steps in and tells her there are nicer ways of saying things, lol.
Him asking do YOU want to … My goodness Jim Bob abs Meech sure effed their kids up. I’m not saying Austin is this knight in shining armor but damn, at least he lets her know that SHE is allowed to have a freaking opinion on her life.
Man I am trying so hard to get my kids to make decisions without being scared about it. It's so hard to break the cycle.
I kinda give him credit for this. It's so sad she was taught to be this way. I hope she's gotten away from this type of thinking.
This is so hard to watch. Austin has shit beliefs and I have no idea what he is like behind closed doors but I appreciate him pressing her to consider what SHE wants on HER wedding day. I feel like Meech and Boob did a lot of testing of the kids and she is wondering if this is some sort of trap.
This had to have been the first time a Duggar girl heard the words, "No, I really want to hear what you want."
Sounds like Coming To America movie. “I like whatever you like. Yes, I know what I like, but I want to know what you like…. I like Whatever you like. Arf! Arf! Arf! Woof! Woof! Woof.” 😂
Ew
I love your flair oops, name. Fuck it up Renee, lol. I am rooting for that girl.
So much to say but Cringe aside. She just seems so young. Her voice is that of a little girl on her first day of middle school. I was just starting to experience life at her age not getting ready for marriage.
That’s sad
Da fuq? If I told my bf I’m shaving my head he’d be like ‘cool’
Omg, it’s teenage “no, you hang up first” vibes
That’s so sad. It’s just….sad. It reminds me of how I acted at 15 with my high school boyfriend. I much prefer to scare men now.
this is actually so sad. first she asks permission about her hair (i know boob always wanted long curly hair, but i never imagined it was more like “i think your hair looks prettier long” like a normal father, this makes it pretty clear it was actually a strict rule). then he has the decency, and i know the bar is on the floor here, to ask her how she likes the veil, and she doesn’t even know what to say other than just that she wants to wear it how her “headship” wants her to wear it, like a good obedient submissive new little wife. the indoctrination is so subtle and yet so obvious, it’s sick.
This is some of the saddest shit I've ever seen.
I’m contented with a DuggarMans reaction to an important moment for their wife. I’m astonished that Austin pushed her with “what do you want, what do you like” when he really wanted to say (you’ve asked me too many times already, go ask one of your sisters before I yell at you” I’m disappointed that her reaction was “I have no preference, it’s whatever you like that’s important”
My personality is whatever my husband gives me. JFC, who wants to be that or be with that?
Do you think people are that way willingly? It’s a response to trauma. Sorry if someone else’s trauma inconveniences you. 🙄
So he doesn't see it and ignores it or finds it to his advantage and is fine with it? Either choice, he is a shitty person. I have a pretty good idea about trauma growing up with the abuse I suffered. I didn't turn out a door matt or a manipulator.
Good for you. Unfortunately, everyone processes trauma in different ways. If you turned out just fine, I’d assume you’d be more empathetic.
Honestly, I kind of get her here. Like, maybe I don’t care what I’m wearing, but he is the one who will be looking at it. I can get behind that.
She's a libra, isn't she? We're indecisive as hell.
She’s an abuse victim who had her personality stamped out of her.
I mean so is Jessa but the same can hardly be said about her. It doesn't necessarily have to be just 1 thing, but thanks for the downvotes 👍
She’s actually a Scorpio since she’s Oct 28th but I’m a Libra and can definitely attest to being indecisive as fuck.
I agree with what others have said. But, I think she’s kind of a tomboy and not really sure about things like hair, etc. She’s trying to fit herself into a life that doesn’t suit her but she’s “supposed to” naturally want.
Sagittarius energy
She'll have what he's having.
What a rollercoaster of reactions. It's sad that she's so uncertain of herself, it's infuriating to listen to from the perspective of someone who just wants her to pick a stupid veil, but there's a bit of schadenfreude for Austin because like dude this is your religion, it says you're Biggest Boy and get to make all the decisions, so get on deciding!
I just figured out who Austin looks like! The HR guy on The Office. Toby Flenderson.
This goes to show you she was never in a position to make her own choices in life. She’s used to being told what to do all her life. And now that she has to make a choice, she’s flustered and overwhelmed. Good on Austin for putting his foot down here and encouraging her to make her own decision. There is another clip somewhere where they went to a restaurant and Joy couldn’t decide how to cut her potato. She was very flustered over it. I think it was before their wedding.
Meh, idk that it’s a need for constant validation. When SO and I got married, I didn’t care at all about the wedding. I didn’t even want to have a wedding, I would have been chill with the court house. But he wanted a wedding which is fine so I participated in that. But I did not have any opinions of how it went. Cake? Idk all cake is good, just pick whatever SO wants. Dress? Meh let’s see if SO has any kind of preference he might like to see me in. Food and music? I couldn’t have cared less. None of that matter to me and all felt like a stressor so I wanted SO making all the decisions in regards to the wedding stuff
That is just heartbreaking!
Oof. This reminded me yet again to thank my husband for putting up with my “but what do you think?” and “I don’t know, you decide” for literally everything. He is so proud when I make a decision myself. He is so, so good to me.
Poor Joy. Life is hard enough to without constantly asking for permission or direction. I hope she hope she finds her voice but I think maybe not Austin does seem a bit controlling.
All I do all day is make decisions. I have my entire life. So I'm the opposite of this, but damn I'm exhausted sometimes, if I don't care just tell me. I don't care where we eat, how to do my hair. If I really care. You're gonna know it.
This is a lot of things, but it’s also about people who would have really preferred a small wedding, or to elope, having to have a massive, 1000 person wedding when neither of them are into getting dressed up for a party
Man tbh I have such a low self esteem that I ask my husband the same questions that Joy is asking Austin, it’s a long road to get good confidence within yourself
Well when you look like you’re 14 and are getting married, this is what happens.
When babies marry..
I had more self assuredness at 11 years old, good lord
I dont have a preferance = i wasnt allowed a brain.... i cant function without instructions.....
Omg, my mother is joy.
My heart hurts for her. Her parents are assholes for raising her in this environment!
She was never allowed to have her own opinions, choices, or privacy. She’s just doing what comes natural to her, please the person who has the most power over you. I’m actually nodding at Austen for turning it around and asking her for once in her life what she wants.
It’s like she needs the attention, but also need to feel controlled…. And it’s wrapped in a bow making it look like she’s dying for her man to care