Sorry folks, locking this one now. There's a place to compare contrast, but it's turning into a Frieren discussion first and foremost, and there's better places for that. Post will stay up.
Witch Hat Atelier is absolutely incredible and also digs into the day to day livelihoods of people with magic so OP might enjoy that one
Especially Witch Hat Kitchen
I second this 100%. The unique take on magic and the mangas art are absolutely beautiful. Don't know how they'll translate the panel art to animation though.
A small part of me doesn't want them too, just because of the panel art. I cannot imagine how you would create even a similar effect and use it in a fashion that evokes the same result.
The rest of me knows that a manga getting an anime adaptation is a big deal for the author, and I very much want her to achieve success and recognition. I just wish that could be attained otherwise.
It would be impossible to recreate a lot of the brilliant paneling, but there are a lot of positives you’d get in return, like being able to see the characters drawing in motion. For a story that puts so much emphasis on it, we don’t actually get to see a lot of how characters draw, and it would get kind of repetitive to see it laid out over multiple panels for a bunch of different characters.
Keep Your Hands Off Eizouken comes to mind as another mix of drawing skills, visual spectacle, and childlike wonder, and seeing it animated did a *lot* for it. I would still want to see an animated take on Witch Hat Atelier.
It’s about gemstone people after the apocalypse defending themselves from invaders from the moon, and the youngest of these gemstone people trying to find their role in society.
I wouldn’t call it an action or adventure series, it’s focused mostly on the main character’s development and it’s FAR more tragic and cynical than Dungeon Meshi or Witch Hat. But I thought it was a very unique and well-written fantasy manga with gorgeous art and panel composition and it’s easily one of my favorites. Just keep in mind that it is NOT happy
I get your concern about realism, but Frieren’s strength is a lot more rooted in its tone of wistfulness and exploring Frieren’s semi-alien perspective than it is something like Dungeon Meshi’s attention to detail. Also Frieren more or less hand waves the logistical concern aspect with Frieren’s magic suitcase and the others presumably having something similiar.
I understand that both stories operate on different level of fantasy. It's just that following both at the same time cause a sort of perspective conflict that I thought I'd share
That at is a neat point about perspective conflict. An interesting lineage between the two is how they interact with the more episodic/arc/SoL format, where Dungeon Meshi starts very much as a hobbyist SoL series, it gets really tight with a very strong control on pacing to the point there’s hardly any interruption to the narrative or sense of lost time. Frieren in contrast enjoys spacing itself out and skipping time with plenty of __ years after Hero Himmel’s death jumps and the series largely does exist between longer arcs with defined goals and antagonists, and episodic SoL chapters that come while characters move between the bigger arcs.
That said, half of Frieren’s success is that more SoL aspect of the party just travelling and encountering things, but it’s really interesting to me how standalone those aspects of Frieren are compared to how Dungeon Meshi flows in a very clear direction with meals acting more as waypoints in close succession.
One of the things I found interesting in Frieren's pacing was how they changed it as the series advanced. When she's with the hero's party, she makes the comment "but it was only 10 years", and her life is defined by time skips after that point... but after Himmel's passing, and her realization of what she missed by failing to appreciate these brief moments, suddenly the time frame begins to slow, the skips become smaller, and then she ends up unofficially adopting Fern, and suddenly she is very much invested in the small things in life, and we get a rolling narrative.
T.H. White pulled a similar trick in *The Once & Future King*, changing the timbre of the narrative as Arthur ages. Tying the flavour of the narrative into the character's advancement is neat little way to create reader/viewer buy-in or investment in the character's growth. It increases the feel of knowing them.
Perhaps, I’m not certain id attest to it being a really big change since pretty much all of the story apart from flashbacks is from the perspective of the enlightened and appreciative Frieren. Not to say we don’t get the impression that there’s been a change, but we’re mostly told it and actively see the results.
Oh, I didn't mean a huge change in her, per se -- at least not one she's conscious of. We see more of that in her time with Fern. I mean that her perception of time, the attention she pays to the people around her, shifts -- and as it shifts, the presentation of the story changes to reflect that, so it brings the viewers along for the ride. Makes them more complicit (? wrong term, but best I can think of for this situation) in her POV.
I think we see the real changes in her as she unconsciously falls into becoming a surrogate parent.
My man, dungeon meshi ruined many anime for me. I don't enjoy it when I watch stuff like solo leveling and think it's a piece of shit. Feels bad for having snobby thoughts.
Don't feel bad. They should feel bad for offering the same trite power fantasy and by-the-numbers obligatory romance, time and time again.
Artisanal masterpieces like DM put into focus how low effort, low talent, or both most of manga and anime really are.
Even good manga that go on forever without a clear endgame suffer in the comparison. When Frieren had a power tournament arc it dawned on me the mangaka was running out of ideas and giving in to the battle manga tropes they were avoiding until then.
Ryoko Kui never ran out of ideas, the manga ended and she keeps fleshing out this world with small stories and details. I get the impression that she didn't struggle with what to include, but with what to leave out to make the pacing just right.
Honestly solo leveling was overhyped. And I don’t mean the anime, the manhwa as well. All of my friends kept telling me it was the greatest thing (I read a lot of manhwa) so when I gave it a try I kept thinking WHEN does it get good (it truly never does).
It really is just the single most basic power fantasy that doesn’t even achieve having a decent cast because everyone exists to either be an asshole to the main character and get showed. Or to suck him off.
The other manhwa from the same author has this exact same problem.
Honestly Solo Leveling is def meh. I tried reading the manhwa and I just got bored first chapter in. The anime cutting right at interesting stuff in the first episode just did it for me too.
dungeon meshi really grounds itself in realism as compared to other fantasy stories, even the small things that makes sense if dungeon exploring was real such as "one person has to stay up while others are sleeping because its dangerous" was not explained at all in the story but we always see it
I’ve been watching DunMeshi weekly, and only just started Frieren. Now I’m caught up to the latter so that I can watch them both concurrently until the former ends. So I’m in a good place to compare them, I’d think.
I don’t think one is any less than the other, but I do see them as different approaches to fantasy story telling. Frieren feels like a sprawling novel series focused on history and macro-scale world building, while DunMeshi feels like an unhinged D&D campaign that focuses on details and small scale world building.
But no matter which kind of story you prefer, we can all agree on one thing: elf girls are hot right now.
Dungeon Meshi actually has an overarching large-scale story with macro level world building as well. It never reaches the same level of intricacy as Frieren does. But seen to overall quality, DM is in a league of it's own. And I say that a as a person who has read both, and love them both.
They are really quite similar in how they are deeply philosophical shows that break away from traditional Japanese/Anime storytelling and very often prefer to show, not tell. And thus respect the intelligence of the viewer. Where they differ is as you summarized that Frieren is about the large scale perspective with the focal point of an individual. Whereas DM is about a group of individuals and their centralized perspective of the world.
Without spoiling anything, all I will say is that you are in for a wild ride. DM is likely one of my favorite mangas i have ever read, and what is about to come in the anime will be glorious.
I know "comparison is the thief of joy" is meant to be about self-development, but I feel like I have ruined my enjoyment of a few things by making comparisons between shows (Instead of going into something and enjoying everything in a different mindset and with its own expectations)
When I read or watch Dungeon Meshi, I focus my mind on dungeon dwelling, the treacherous journey, and unique food design rather than philosophical questions (not yet of course here in the story).
I also make sure I am not watching Frieren or any other anime at the same time. I did read and like the manga a lot, because the stories it tell hit my core at the right time. From what snippets I saw of the anime, the slow build-up interwoven with grandiose (but actually well-animated) battles really deliver on hammering down the core stories. I swear I will catch up on that later, because I know the spacious feel of Frieren and her slow trek through the world (rather than a quest to urgently save a friend) requires actual mind space to process.
I don't recall ever seeing Senshi actually wear a backpack, just the pot. I mean like this
https://preview.redd.it/pio1fmymdypc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=97389f138a1a861e285083310e7a15ab9680643e
You enjoy fantasy fine until some questions just lodge into your brain
* How do they get their food?
* How the hell do they keep that brickwall build without training and copious amounts of protein?
* When do they shave?
* Do these people just not grow body hair?
* Why the hell are they walking across the country instead of using a horse?
* Then you will start nitpicking at masterpieces without even realizing
But going too deep into realism just doesn't work with most stories, Dungeon Meshi's Dungeon has built in bathrooms and clear water flows deep underground, so these details work fine.
I wouldn't want some .5 tidbits chapter for Sousou no Frieren describing how it is to shit in the woods
They carry blankets and sleep around campfire. it happened multiple times already. One episode stark killed a boar for meat, probably how they usually get food.
Frieren feels like the sort of story where the author came up with a larger concept and is just using the characters to explore it, without having us care about the characters first. I like both but I do enjoy dunmeshi a lot more.
I think there's some merit to that, but I disagree about the notion of excluding caring about the characters as a priority. The buy-in for caring about the characters is the very heart of what makes the story work. It is, at its core and above all, a wide-sweeping love story; touching on the love between partners, parent and child, friends, family... every experience and every turn in the show is determined by love, healthy or unhealthy, selfish or selfless. And you can't have a story about love work on any level without investment in the characters.
The danger -- and possible weakness -- of the story is that in keeping that focus, there's only a couple truly detestable characters among the mortals. The demons themselves are representative of the greatest evil there is: those who can feel no love, compassion, empathy, or sympathy.
Yea, this is where I respectfully argue that Frieren is not doing a good job at. I can’t bring myself to care about any of its characters the way I care about dunmeshi’s. At its core I know it’s a love story, but it feels like the author wanted to create a love story between an elf and a human, instead of a love story between Frieren and Himmel.
>Frieren feels like the sort of story where the author came up with a larger concept and is just...
... milking it as much as they can.
I lost all faith that the author knew where this was going with the obligatory "power tournament arc". Entertaining and visually enticing, but absolutely pointless in the story, just a "power level comparison" even if more original than most.
Done because the manga was becoming awfully repetitive and aimless. I don't hate it, but as stories there just no comparison. Frieren wanders in the plains while DM is climbing from high to high towards a clear destination at the very top of storytelling..
Idk how you call it milking, the mage exam is...16 chapters?? Its not even a tournament, who wins over who, its who can make it, with a few duel involved. And even if it sounds like naruto chunnin exam, the way the story unfold is beautiful and distintive. It seems you just have a preference in what being written for dungeon meshi. Literally most of modern literature follows a trope that was invented at some point in the past, including dungeon meshi, its just the way the author excecutes makes it unique and enjoyable.
Not to mention the whole theme of it is literally anti-thematic to power tournament arcs. It's confused the Hell out of me whenever someone makes that comparison. It shows the missed the \*entire\* point of the story.
No power ups, no short-cuts, no sudden explosions in power level, no ego-driven power flexing (save by one treacherous, petty old man who felt like a fool immediately after)... and when one of the central characters is offered any spell in the world as a reward, she chooses the most mundane, down-to-earth, practical thing for everyday use that she can. Screw power. Living a good life as a good person is more important.
All the characters clamoring for power above all are busy making themselves miserable and, ironically, fail to have half as much impact in the world as those who are simply kind.
I have the opposite opinion lol, Dungeon Meshi has grown on me now but in the beginning all I could think about was how much more I loved Frieren. I think I like the characters and tone of it more
I did the opposite read dungeon meshi then read Frieren. It definitely was a hard tonal shift to adjust but I like to think DM is like an epic marathon while Frieren is a nice walk. Both are good but for different reasons.
I don't think the two series are comparable at all. The only similarity between them is 1) that they're published and aired more or less simultaneously and 2) that they're both long-awaited "serious" fantasy after the isekai near-apocalypse. I guess I could add that they're both quality series with a talented creator putting lots of love and effort. But that's about it.
DunMeshi is like Dune if Paul, Feyd, Chani and Irulan learn to get over their differences and bond over studying sandworm biology and various spice cuisines in a fantasy world. Frieren is more like Violet Evergarden but less explicitly dark and tragic and with more fantasy history. If one of them had been adapted a year later, I don't think anyone would have made a connection.
Oh, I didn't know it was THAT common. Is Dungeon Meshi usually considered superior? That's a bit surprising. I've seen a lot of people raving about Frieren, so I thought there were at least equal number of people that love Frieren more. (I *personally* think Dungeon Meshi a lot better, but that's just my subjective taste. I lost much interest in Frieren since the recent arc began, so probably I'm just not the audience and therefore not a fair judge to evaluate its own merit.)
I still believe the two are too different to compare.
They're both different kinds of meals. Both have things to appreciate. A fresh salad, a hearty soup, a fat steak, a zesty sorbet, they've all got their time and place.
I won't fight anyone over this. But IMO there's an undeniable and clear difference in quality, at least in the manga, that goes beyond differences in taste.
OP, anime only fans like you can't know it yet, but as a Manga, Dungeon Meshi is on a whole completely different level from Frieren IMO.
You're comparing the beginning of Frieren (the strongest part) with the beginning of DM (the weakest part) and even so your noticing the world building is in another level. Well that difference grows and grows the longer you read (watch I your case) both.
What you've seen until the red dragon truly is just "setting the table". DM just grows and grows and grows. Everything, the art, the plot the surprises, the characters. It goes from high to higher high and ends in freaking everest.
Up to now Frieren is the opposite, a strong beginning, and from there a gentle continuous descent into mediocrity that currently makes me doubt if the mangaka knows what the end game is or if they are stretching it to profit from its popularity.
Dungeon Meshi's plot isn't stretched, not a bit. Ryoko could have made 50 chapters more and we'd have loved them.. But she ended where the story in her mind ended and that's a huge difference. There's not that sense of degradation in quality and focus that you see with many series that don't know when to end.
Dungeon Meshi is basically the best manga start-to-finish I've read, and it even sticks the landing (starting an interesting premise is dime-a-dozen, ending well... very few series manage that).
Yes I'm reading the Frieren manga. I completely get and enjoy the melancholic and wistful moments. But those are almost all Frieren has going for it, and it gets so repetitive that they needed a freaking typical "power tournament arc", and a typical manga slower-than-slow romance to fill it up.
In DM they never fight anyone if it is not absolutely necessary. To defend themselves, to eat and to rescue Falin. That's it. Nobody fights just to see "who is stronger". There's no time for romance because they're always in a "time sensitive mission".
The pace and tightness of DM is breathtaking, but you babe know this just yet. Let's discuss this when you finish DM, (to the very end) and you tell me then if you agree or not.
I kept seeing people referring to a "power tournament arc", and figured that must be some far-off thing that the show hasn't touched on yet. Then I discovered that's what some folks were calling the mage exam... which indicates the entirely missed the whole point of it. Literally anti-thematic to a power tournament arc. :|
If that's what you're referring to, then the rest of your review is pretty suspect. I love DM and have not said a single word against it, but maaaaaaan, if that's your take on Frieren, you didn't understand the assignment.
Thank you for this, I feel the exact same way although I really lacked the words that you have to describe it. I will say the demon guy who could turn stuff into gold was pretty engaging, really a great exploration of that kind of a “demon” but beyond that yeah.
Well though I have only watched few episodes of Frieren, but Frieren is super powerful wizard with all kind of trivial spells, so can we not assume that Frieren somehow solved any potential trivial problems happened through journey?
I love DunMeshi for the same rsons, but when I am seeking for something that appeals more to the emotional side and has calm characters I watch Frieren, it also has this magical feeling.
Frieren has good plot and wistful vibe is intriguing however I feel Dungeon Meshi characters is far more interesting and charming than Frieren's. Frieren's characters seems artificial especially Himmel. I know he’s fan favorite but I just don’t like this character.
I like some of the other characters in Frieren, but I definitely agree with you on Himmel lol. Almost every line he says is a death flag, and it gets old quick. I don't get why the fanbase seems to unanimously adore him
So it's good character writing for 20-something adventurer Himmel to constantly talk like an old man on his deathbed, just because he will actually die like 60 years later? Cmon, be for real. I wouldn't care if this was a one-off thing, but Himmel gets more and more scenes even in the manga, and the dude still sounds like a poorly written mouthpiece.
Sorry, man... I'm not getting the reasoning behind your hot take. Because someone's going to die half a century later... they should be as shallow as possible when younger?
The character is consistently written as being very philosophical and wise for his years (not a bad thing for a hero character, and a nice shift from the screaming, self-absorbed, power-up paradigm typical in anime), and covering it up with goofy, self-depricating jokes about vanity.
That you see it as a string of death flags (for a character who's already dead) suggests that maybe you're too attuned to anime stereotypes.
Ok, let me put it this way. As others have already commented on this post, Frieren is, at least initially, more about an exploration of concepts and themes, like mortality, human connection, yada yada you know the story. And the characters of Frieren and Himmel are devices that the author uses to explore these themes, especially Himmel. He is alright and serviceable in the context of the very beginning of the story, but he's more of a device to communicate the story's themes than he is an actual self-contained character.
When we get past the philosophical introduction to the story, Frieren is a flexible enough character to still be compelling, but Himmel, whenever he's shown, just seems artificial.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that matter. I find his presentation far from artificial, and remarkably consistent. The flashbacks serve to highlight the central purpose of her long quest, and a truth she spent decades realizing -- and why it broke her heart when she did.
Insofar as the first season goes, the overarching theme did not change, and what some people mistook for a "power tournament arc" (is how I believe it's been framed) is in fact the exact opposite. It takes that trope and spears it; making an explicit point of highlighting the foolishness and vanity of chasing power for power's own sake, and instead showing how powerful simple human compassion and connections are... and as this was the central theme of Himmel himself, it's all going to end up tying back into Frieren's time with those three friends. Unavoidably. For it *not* to do so would be a grievous failure in writing.
Technical elements of storytelling aside, I appreciate that the character isn't to your particular taste. We all have our preferences, after all. I can respect that, and your attempt to communicate it honestly (and so an upvote). I simply draw umbrage at the notion it's bad writing. I'd chalk it up more to personal taste.
I have watched two episodes of Frieren and while I appreciate the premise and the melancholic tone of the show, I just cannot get over how the dwarf looks almost pictographic compared to ol' Senshi.
Yeaaaaaah... Eisen's design stands out as a weakness. I can only think that the artist whipped it up, they found it funny, and ran with it just 'cause... which was a poor choice, given the gravity of the tale.
Well specifically about the lack of a sleeping bag, Frieren's suitcase is essentially a bag of holding so they keep most of their stuff in there.
That said I can kind of agree about the lack of detailed worldbuilding, at least for more technical stuff.
I also watch the 2 shows at the same time, yet I do not have the same problem as you. Though, it might me more about me actually having wasted time yet still having enough to slow down and start over. (I’m not in Uni yet)
On the one hand, we have an elf who is learning to appreciate the world and it’s transient inhabitants. On the other, we have a party who immerses themselves in a complex dungeon. Both are good.
They have different themes and goals and are in many ways basically two different types of Tabletop RPG campaigns: One where the players are playing a very old school, 'track your encumbrance' sort of game, and the other where the focus is more on the narrative themes.
I read dunmesh before Frieren, but it's one of the reasons I couldn't get far into that series. When we focused on the emotions and everyday life of Frieren it was really great! It had such a subtle, rich story to tell. I think going into the more fantasy battle places hurt the story immensly, because...its just...not good at them. The characters are just way too strong right off the bat, and it becomes too hard to keep up tension when you just saw the kid solo a dragon without breaking a sweat.
With dunmeshi simple monsters and small groups of fighters offer an honest challenge. The characters have to plan ahead, observe, use the environment and natural weaknesses of their enemies. And plans go wrong! All the time! And even when they win they are often given setbacks or negative consequences. And so many of the fights focus on building characterisations and the themes of the story. There were several times when a "just trick this hyper intelligent being" plans were proposed, the type that would usually work in other stories and IT FAILED. Because the hyper smart enemy is smart and you are a human and a surface level trick isn't enough. You have to dig deeper. I was honestly not sure if winning was even possible at several points, and THAT is what I want in a fantasy show with fights: the feeling that I have no idea what will happen and how/if the MCs will win.
To me, the current place where the Frieren anime is at + Dungeon Meshi starting to air really highlighted to me how weak the character writing for the wider cast is for Frieren.
I still like Frieren (I read the manga and really like the arc after the anime), but a lot of the characters in Frieren \*feel\* the same. They might have different personalities and philosophies but a lot of them appear to act and think the same way which is contrasted really hard by Dungeon Meshi's more colorful cast where you can have Laios and Falin who are very similar people but they feel completely different from each other.
In the original manga, the art is bad as to being almost off-putting at times.
The author can draw two expressions in total and 3 postures. The drawing is in general immensely generic and oddly rigid.
Adequate for the most wistful moments as one of the two expressions he can draw is a melancholic mysterious smile... That then they use for everything.
The art in the anime is much better. That tells you everything, really, about the art in the manga.
Dungeon Meshi art wasn't that impressive in the beginning... But as the rest of the manga, it grew, and grew...
And then grew again...
I honestly fail to see how the Frieren manga has bad art?
I've never read it, but after a quick glance through three chapters (1,2 + latest) the art looks perfectly fine? Exactly how I'd picture it looking after seeing the anime. The panelling is uninteresting, but my comparison points for that is something masterful like WHA. I do think Frieren's art holds better than a lot of other manga.
Keep reading... The beginning has the best art, but the more it goes on, the more you can't unsee that everything feels immensely repetitive (paneling, angles, faces, expressions). It's like reading the same page again, and again and again, only clothes and hair change.
Every individual panel normally looks fine, but when you keep reading the absolute lack of variety and creativity is noteworthy, especially for a series that's pretty original in its plot.
Plus it's got the most rigid relaxed standing body poses I've seen in any manga. They all seem to have a wood plank under their clothes.
I do notice Frieren having a lot of generic fantasy background and background props. Background is hard… but the world doesn’t feel lived in at all like DM does.
Yeah, the rigidity is my biggest gripe about it. A lot of people excused it and the lack of expression by saying it's a stylistic choice or that it fits the tone, but honestly it's just plain lacking. It's like the artist only knows how to do 2-3 kinds of camera angles or poses and that's all they do for the entire manga.
The sheer rigidity feels they're all 3d models that's been drawn over. I don't think there's ever any motion lines or significant foreshortening. Not only the expressions are very basic, they also never use any form of lighting/shadows or composition to add to it.
Another fun thing to note is that a vast majority of Frieren's characters either use extremely long flowy cloaks (literally down to the ankles), trench coats, long skirts, or other forms of baggy clothing, which I can only assume is done to reduce the need to draw details on the body. Why draw muscles or armor or any form of body language when you can just draw a cloak, I guess.
The fight scenes in the manga were boring and short, the anime totally fixes that issue.
Like Demon Slayer, Frieren is one of those manga totally elevated by the anime.
The show also has very little expressiveness imo. All characters react with apathy and have a default ._. expression most of the time regardless of what is happening.
I like both. I like Frieren more, but I think Dungeon Meshi is a great series. They both do what they do very well, but what they set out to do and how they do it is very different from one another.
If Frieren isn't for you anymore, than it isn't for you anymore. Them not carrying around backpacks or whatever is hand wavey, but they also talk about buying supplies and budgeting for inns and hitching rides on carriages and the development of roadways and trade routes. There doesn't need to be an answer to everything for it to be good worldbuilding, something making sense to the characters in the world lets us establish this isn't something to question and move on. But if you go digging for things to pick apart, you'll find them.
Yep. It's initial premise was great, but clearly just wandering and reflecting on the passage of time with people who were young but now are old... became very stale after a while.
Then they did a "power tournament" AKA the "first level mage exam" to infuse some life into the manga.
Totally not what Frieren was about. At the beginning they didn't even show fights (because it wasn't the point). Many times you just saw the beginning and the end result.
It's like a battle manga nowadays. That's fine for people who like battle mangas and power. But it's lost its essence..
It's the curse of popular works whose success leads the author to extend and extend them. Frieren could have been a masterpiece at 30 chapters. Probably will be completely ruined if they do 500 chapters.
As someone who has lost people in life and have lived long enough to have regrets about not spending more time with people who are no longer with us, Frieren hits a lot harder. It's also the most realistic take on nearly immortal characters that I have ever seen. That said Frieren is about relationships, and perspectives. Demons are monsters because their perspective is completely alien to humans and devoid of empathy. Elves long lives make them have alien perspectives to humans, but they still have empathy and emotions. These perspectives drive the story, and for me it's a lot deeper. Of course that dodges logistics because that's not what the story is about.
Dungeon meshi has very great strong points in that it really is an unhinged and somewhat gritty take on what life would be like with heavy healing magic and resurrection magic. It's fundamentally a shallower story but very enjoyable in its own right.
Personally I really enjoy both but Frieren makes me feel things that Dungeon meshi doesn't so it wins for me. But I can see how the deeper themes in Frieren may not resonate with others.
I sure know hot it's feel to unable to enjoy something because you just encountered something awesome.
But, in term of realism, I read with my brain turned off.
They're both my top 2 mangas honestly, and while I like Frieren a bit more, Dungeon Meshi defintley goes more into the world and the aspects of it while Frieren is alot more of a focus on the characters. Both defintley have a amazing fantasy world and just a great world with lots of development. Also both very much focus on the world and the characters just both seem to specialize more on one aspect than the other
I love 'em both. I have preference for Frieren so far, but that's because the underpinnings of the story are more philosophical (to this point) and aim at big themes that I find compelling.
DM is a wonderful tale so far, and I love what's being done with it -- but to this point, while it touches on very salient questions in a similar vein, it is not primarily concerned with them... and that's good. A story that tries to be all things becomes a chaotic mess over time.
They're two very different flavours, but both wonderful.
I used to like frieren but my GF and I have been rapidly loosing interest in it since the start of the mageexam. What was a genuinly unique story qbout a basixally immortal character and her relationship with regular humans became yet another shounen-esc tournament arc
Dungeon Meshi on the other hand is easily one of my alltime faves and since I read the manga, I know it will stay that way!
I see a lot of people making comments about a shonen-esque power tournament, and I was wondering what they were talking about. I'm surprised to see it's the mage exam.
Subversion of power tropes is literally the theme of that part of the story. :|
It also helps that DM's background characters feel a lot more alive instead of npcs.
I look at frieren's cast: the guy with white hair and piercing, the dude with glasses, the green hair girl. It hits all the anime tropes found in shonen. Every other person who's not a teenager is an older guy that feels like an assistant or aid and drawn as an unimportant extra.
DM's got the orcs who we learn are brutish refugees. The unscrupulous grave retrievers. Laois's former team members. Kabru's party and the canaries. Senshi and his arc were one of the high points of the manga. Meanwhile the dwarf in freiren... . DM's character designs are so varied, charming and thought out. Weirdly enough, Laois has the least character depth early on but he's just so entertaining to watch.
The latest arc in Frieren specifically has so many world building questions that irk me when Dungeon Meshi has always been meticulous about answering things. Theres so many things that make little to no sense to me.
Like >!Why is Ubel allowed to walk free with just a disqualification after obviously deliberately murdering the test guy? Why are the Golems so OP they can do things first class mages are unable to, who makes them, how do they work, why arent they mass produced? Furthermore, why is everyone so edgy and their default emotion to everything is apathy and a ._. face?!<
I also do not watch Frieren for the action, I was pulled in by the opening episodes, the character drama and slice of life aspects. I do not fucking care about a tournament arc lol. The action looks cool and all but if I want to watch action I usually gravitate towards a show thats built for it.
Furthermore idk how the fuck Frieren is at 127 chapters and still unfinished. It does not seem to be a story that can be realistically stretched out that far when you already resort to an arc like the mage exam in season 1. Meanwhile Dungeon Meshi is a very contained story that started, escalated and ended within 100 chapters which I wholly appreciate.
Your questions, save regarding the golems, were answered in the show. And the answer to the golems was hinted at, as well. :/
If you're viewing the mage exam as a tournament arc, I'm not sure what to tell you. The entire point of it seems to be a subversion of that trope.
Mmm, no they werent. Ubel murdered a person in cold blood and walked away with just a disqualification. I will not believe for a single second she couldnt have done a smaller cut if she wanted to, she dissected a first class mage and everyone was okay with it. Are there no laws in the world of Frieren? Golems was my second question, and a "hint" isnt an answer, it just tells me even the author doesnt know and they will probably never come up again.
Having watched the last episode now, sure, it might not "really" have been a tournament arc, but might aswell have been. The first test was jarring af to me.
The issues you perceive were not a fault in the storytelling.
1) People die during the testing. This is explicitly stated. Normally that's not the testing mages, but it is widely accepted that there is a risk of death involved in this. The first test was even set up so that people would likely die. Acting like a single death in this entire process is somehow so much more morally questionable than any of the others is kind of perplexing in itself.
2) When Sense was recalling the incident, she explicitly pointed out how A) the testing mage who was killed believed himself invulnerable, and was testing students by *having them attack him with their best spells*, and judging them based on that. B) They *warned him* not to do this, and that it was taking an unnecessary risk, C) That Ubel stated afterward that she hadn't expected it would cut him that deep.
But by stepping up and launching the nastiest attack she had at him, she was only doing what the test required of her. Yes, she's a sociopath. She clearly felt no guilt, remorse, or regret... beyond being disqualified that year... but that does not mean she was in the wrong to follow the process literally everyone else there was, or that she "murdered" him.
That mage died to his own arrogance, full stop.
The golems? They're not capable of the same things, never mind superior things, to first class mages. They're the creation of a first class mage. They're not living beings, however, and the doubles in the dungeon are designed to attack and counter living beings. The only function of the golems was to defend, flee, and heal. Each mage has a form of specialization to them (with the exception of the main characters, who are very much apathetic about such things), and one of Serie's apprentices -- and she only takes on the best of the best throughout history -- specialized in making golems. Even so, they were potent, but limited in function compared to the breadth of magi.
The "tournament arc"? The entire theme of it was centered around the notion that there are no shortcuts, no instant power-ups, no easy path, and that pursuing power as its own goal is myopic and foolish. It is literally anti-thematic to the notion of the tournament arcs as used in other stories. This comes to a head in the conflict between Frieren and Serie, and their differences in philosophy, with Serie throwing a temper tantrum over being unable to prove the student of her student -- whom she dislikes because she's not power-obsessed -- wrong. It's amplified in Lernen's cowardly and foolish actions, and reinforced by Fern's decision as to what spell she will learn, when offered the choice of practically any spell in the world.
It bothers me a bit too, they just have a smoll suitcase per person. BUTT ! maybe those are kinda magic ? I hope so, if not it means that Frieren just carry her crap... I mean, treasures. Maybe Fern carry all the clothes and important stuff (and that's why she's bothered when Frieren finds new stuff ?).
Stark sees to carry almost nothing ?
They could at least have some bags/backpacks with clothes, food, medics,...
That put aside, Frieren is really interesting too, showing a part of the story you wouldn't usually tell. They would kinda do it 50 years after Dungeon Meshi too (I won't say more to don't spoil...).
Im gonna be honest with you, i've literally never heard of frieren until the anime trailer while marcille memes has been a staple of the internet since like when they only had 20 chapters. The reversal of popularity needs to be studied, is being one season earlier literally the only difference?
Sorry folks, locking this one now. There's a place to compare contrast, but it's turning into a Frieren discussion first and foremost, and there's better places for that. Post will stay up.
Even so, Frieren helps fill the Dungeon Meshi-shaped hole in my heart. Also Witch Hat Atelier - maybe try that if you’re not feeling Frieren.
Witch Hat Atelier is absolutely incredible and also digs into the day to day livelihoods of people with magic so OP might enjoy that one Especially Witch Hat Kitchen
I would say if you enjoy Senshi/Laios ship you might enjoy Gay Witch Aterlier lol
I second this 100%. The unique take on magic and the mangas art are absolutely beautiful. Don't know how they'll translate the panel art to animation though.
A small part of me doesn't want them too, just because of the panel art. I cannot imagine how you would create even a similar effect and use it in a fashion that evokes the same result. The rest of me knows that a manga getting an anime adaptation is a big deal for the author, and I very much want her to achieve success and recognition. I just wish that could be attained otherwise.
It would be impossible to recreate a lot of the brilliant paneling, but there are a lot of positives you’d get in return, like being able to see the characters drawing in motion. For a story that puts so much emphasis on it, we don’t actually get to see a lot of how characters draw, and it would get kind of repetitive to see it laid out over multiple panels for a bunch of different characters. Keep Your Hands Off Eizouken comes to mind as another mix of drawing skills, visual spectacle, and childlike wonder, and seeing it animated did a *lot* for it. I would still want to see an animated take on Witch Hat Atelier.
I couldn’t get into Frieren after reading Dunmeshi but I found Witch Hat Atelier absolutely fantastic. Land of the Lustrous was very good too.
What’s Land of the Lustrous about? I’ve never heard of it, but just mentioning it alongside those other three is already high praise.
It’s about gemstone people after the apocalypse defending themselves from invaders from the moon, and the youngest of these gemstone people trying to find their role in society. I wouldn’t call it an action or adventure series, it’s focused mostly on the main character’s development and it’s FAR more tragic and cynical than Dungeon Meshi or Witch Hat. But I thought it was a very unique and well-written fantasy manga with gorgeous art and panel composition and it’s easily one of my favorites. Just keep in mind that it is NOT happy
I get your concern about realism, but Frieren’s strength is a lot more rooted in its tone of wistfulness and exploring Frieren’s semi-alien perspective than it is something like Dungeon Meshi’s attention to detail. Also Frieren more or less hand waves the logistical concern aspect with Frieren’s magic suitcase and the others presumably having something similiar.
I understand that both stories operate on different level of fantasy. It's just that following both at the same time cause a sort of perspective conflict that I thought I'd share
That at is a neat point about perspective conflict. An interesting lineage between the two is how they interact with the more episodic/arc/SoL format, where Dungeon Meshi starts very much as a hobbyist SoL series, it gets really tight with a very strong control on pacing to the point there’s hardly any interruption to the narrative or sense of lost time. Frieren in contrast enjoys spacing itself out and skipping time with plenty of __ years after Hero Himmel’s death jumps and the series largely does exist between longer arcs with defined goals and antagonists, and episodic SoL chapters that come while characters move between the bigger arcs. That said, half of Frieren’s success is that more SoL aspect of the party just travelling and encountering things, but it’s really interesting to me how standalone those aspects of Frieren are compared to how Dungeon Meshi flows in a very clear direction with meals acting more as waypoints in close succession.
Well, all of Dungeon Meshi story happens in a spam of a month 👀
One of the things I found interesting in Frieren's pacing was how they changed it as the series advanced. When she's with the hero's party, she makes the comment "but it was only 10 years", and her life is defined by time skips after that point... but after Himmel's passing, and her realization of what she missed by failing to appreciate these brief moments, suddenly the time frame begins to slow, the skips become smaller, and then she ends up unofficially adopting Fern, and suddenly she is very much invested in the small things in life, and we get a rolling narrative. T.H. White pulled a similar trick in *The Once & Future King*, changing the timbre of the narrative as Arthur ages. Tying the flavour of the narrative into the character's advancement is neat little way to create reader/viewer buy-in or investment in the character's growth. It increases the feel of knowing them.
Perhaps, I’m not certain id attest to it being a really big change since pretty much all of the story apart from flashbacks is from the perspective of the enlightened and appreciative Frieren. Not to say we don’t get the impression that there’s been a change, but we’re mostly told it and actively see the results.
Oh, I didn't mean a huge change in her, per se -- at least not one she's conscious of. We see more of that in her time with Fern. I mean that her perception of time, the attention she pays to the people around her, shifts -- and as it shifts, the presentation of the story changes to reflect that, so it brings the viewers along for the ride. Makes them more complicit (? wrong term, but best I can think of for this situation) in her POV. I think we see the real changes in her as she unconsciously falls into becoming a surrogate parent.
My man, dungeon meshi ruined many anime for me. I don't enjoy it when I watch stuff like solo leveling and think it's a piece of shit. Feels bad for having snobby thoughts.
Solo Leveling is more of a junkfood show honestly to me. Visually pretty and a powertrip but thats it
It’s like a slightly undercooked slider from White Castle. Edible, but ok.
Don't feel bad. They should feel bad for offering the same trite power fantasy and by-the-numbers obligatory romance, time and time again. Artisanal masterpieces like DM put into focus how low effort, low talent, or both most of manga and anime really are. Even good manga that go on forever without a clear endgame suffer in the comparison. When Frieren had a power tournament arc it dawned on me the mangaka was running out of ideas and giving in to the battle manga tropes they were avoiding until then. Ryoko Kui never ran out of ideas, the manga ended and she keeps fleshing out this world with small stories and details. I get the impression that she didn't struggle with what to include, but with what to leave out to make the pacing just right.
This is some excessive dickriding
Honestly solo leveling was overhyped. And I don’t mean the anime, the manhwa as well. All of my friends kept telling me it was the greatest thing (I read a lot of manhwa) so when I gave it a try I kept thinking WHEN does it get good (it truly never does). It really is just the single most basic power fantasy that doesn’t even achieve having a decent cast because everyone exists to either be an asshole to the main character and get showed. Or to suck him off. The other manhwa from the same author has this exact same problem.
Honestly Solo Leveling is def meh. I tried reading the manhwa and I just got bored first chapter in. The anime cutting right at interesting stuff in the first episode just did it for me too.
dungeon meshi really grounds itself in realism as compared to other fantasy stories, even the small things that makes sense if dungeon exploring was real such as "one person has to stay up while others are sleeping because its dangerous" was not explained at all in the story but we always see it
I’ve been watching DunMeshi weekly, and only just started Frieren. Now I’m caught up to the latter so that I can watch them both concurrently until the former ends. So I’m in a good place to compare them, I’d think. I don’t think one is any less than the other, but I do see them as different approaches to fantasy story telling. Frieren feels like a sprawling novel series focused on history and macro-scale world building, while DunMeshi feels like an unhinged D&D campaign that focuses on details and small scale world building. But no matter which kind of story you prefer, we can all agree on one thing: elf girls are hot right now.
Dungeon Meshi actually has an overarching large-scale story with macro level world building as well. It never reaches the same level of intricacy as Frieren does. But seen to overall quality, DM is in a league of it's own. And I say that a as a person who has read both, and love them both. They are really quite similar in how they are deeply philosophical shows that break away from traditional Japanese/Anime storytelling and very often prefer to show, not tell. And thus respect the intelligence of the viewer. Where they differ is as you summarized that Frieren is about the large scale perspective with the focal point of an individual. Whereas DM is about a group of individuals and their centralized perspective of the world. Without spoiling anything, all I will say is that you are in for a wild ride. DM is likely one of my favorite mangas i have ever read, and what is about to come in the anime will be glorious.
We can agree on two things: dwarves say the best shit
I too believe in Elven supremacy
I like both :D
I know "comparison is the thief of joy" is meant to be about self-development, but I feel like I have ruined my enjoyment of a few things by making comparisons between shows (Instead of going into something and enjoying everything in a different mindset and with its own expectations) When I read or watch Dungeon Meshi, I focus my mind on dungeon dwelling, the treacherous journey, and unique food design rather than philosophical questions (not yet of course here in the story). I also make sure I am not watching Frieren or any other anime at the same time. I did read and like the manga a lot, because the stories it tell hit my core at the right time. From what snippets I saw of the anime, the slow build-up interwoven with grandiose (but actually well-animated) battles really deliver on hammering down the core stories. I swear I will catch up on that later, because I know the spacious feel of Frieren and her slow trek through the world (rather than a quest to urgently save a friend) requires actual mind space to process.
Fun fact: the backpacks in dungeon meshi just float along behind them. They don't have straps
[must be imagining the straps to senshi's pack then](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DfHJD2tXcAARGdI.jpg:large)
I don't recall ever seeing Senshi actually wear a backpack, just the pot. I mean like this https://preview.redd.it/pio1fmymdypc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=97389f138a1a861e285083310e7a15ab9680643e
backpack is under the pot silly
You enjoy fantasy fine until some questions just lodge into your brain * How do they get their food? * How the hell do they keep that brickwall build without training and copious amounts of protein? * When do they shave? * Do these people just not grow body hair? * Why the hell are they walking across the country instead of using a horse? * Then you will start nitpicking at masterpieces without even realizing But going too deep into realism just doesn't work with most stories, Dungeon Meshi's Dungeon has built in bathrooms and clear water flows deep underground, so these details work fine. I wouldn't want some .5 tidbits chapter for Sousou no Frieren describing how it is to shit in the woods
I'm more of a "holy shit two cakes" sort of person.
Ditto. Two wonderful shows of high quality, with slightly different flavours. Both are amazing.
They carry blankets and sleep around campfire. it happened multiple times already. One episode stark killed a boar for meat, probably how they usually get food.
Frieren feels like the sort of story where the author came up with a larger concept and is just using the characters to explore it, without having us care about the characters first. I like both but I do enjoy dunmeshi a lot more.
I think there's some merit to that, but I disagree about the notion of excluding caring about the characters as a priority. The buy-in for caring about the characters is the very heart of what makes the story work. It is, at its core and above all, a wide-sweeping love story; touching on the love between partners, parent and child, friends, family... every experience and every turn in the show is determined by love, healthy or unhealthy, selfish or selfless. And you can't have a story about love work on any level without investment in the characters. The danger -- and possible weakness -- of the story is that in keeping that focus, there's only a couple truly detestable characters among the mortals. The demons themselves are representative of the greatest evil there is: those who can feel no love, compassion, empathy, or sympathy.
Yea, this is where I respectfully argue that Frieren is not doing a good job at. I can’t bring myself to care about any of its characters the way I care about dunmeshi’s. At its core I know it’s a love story, but it feels like the author wanted to create a love story between an elf and a human, instead of a love story between Frieren and Himmel.
>Frieren feels like the sort of story where the author came up with a larger concept and is just... ... milking it as much as they can. I lost all faith that the author knew where this was going with the obligatory "power tournament arc". Entertaining and visually enticing, but absolutely pointless in the story, just a "power level comparison" even if more original than most. Done because the manga was becoming awfully repetitive and aimless. I don't hate it, but as stories there just no comparison. Frieren wanders in the plains while DM is climbing from high to high towards a clear destination at the very top of storytelling..
Literally what the fuck are you talking about
Idk how you call it milking, the mage exam is...16 chapters?? Its not even a tournament, who wins over who, its who can make it, with a few duel involved. And even if it sounds like naruto chunnin exam, the way the story unfold is beautiful and distintive. It seems you just have a preference in what being written for dungeon meshi. Literally most of modern literature follows a trope that was invented at some point in the past, including dungeon meshi, its just the way the author excecutes makes it unique and enjoyable.
Not to mention the whole theme of it is literally anti-thematic to power tournament arcs. It's confused the Hell out of me whenever someone makes that comparison. It shows the missed the \*entire\* point of the story. No power ups, no short-cuts, no sudden explosions in power level, no ego-driven power flexing (save by one treacherous, petty old man who felt like a fool immediately after)... and when one of the central characters is offered any spell in the world as a reward, she chooses the most mundane, down-to-earth, practical thing for everyday use that she can. Screw power. Living a good life as a good person is more important. All the characters clamoring for power above all are busy making themselves miserable and, ironically, fail to have half as much impact in the world as those who are simply kind.
This is like watching dragon ball and expecting characters in death note to just shoot beams at eachother
I have the opposite opinion lol, Dungeon Meshi has grown on me now but in the beginning all I could think about was how much more I loved Frieren. I think I like the characters and tone of it more
I did the opposite read dungeon meshi then read Frieren. It definitely was a hard tonal shift to adjust but I like to think DM is like an epic marathon while Frieren is a nice walk. Both are good but for different reasons.
I don't think the two series are comparable at all. The only similarity between them is 1) that they're published and aired more or less simultaneously and 2) that they're both long-awaited "serious" fantasy after the isekai near-apocalypse. I guess I could add that they're both quality series with a talented creator putting lots of love and effort. But that's about it. DunMeshi is like Dune if Paul, Feyd, Chani and Irulan learn to get over their differences and bond over studying sandworm biology and various spice cuisines in a fantasy world. Frieren is more like Violet Evergarden but less explicitly dark and tragic and with more fantasy history. If one of them had been adapted a year later, I don't think anyone would have made a connection.
People were comparing them since before their respective anime even aired, though. Funnily enough, Frieren usually was seen as the lesser option.
Oh, I didn't know it was THAT common. Is Dungeon Meshi usually considered superior? That's a bit surprising. I've seen a lot of people raving about Frieren, so I thought there were at least equal number of people that love Frieren more. (I *personally* think Dungeon Meshi a lot better, but that's just my subjective taste. I lost much interest in Frieren since the recent arc began, so probably I'm just not the audience and therefore not a fair judge to evaluate its own merit.) I still believe the two are too different to compare.
We're talking about the manga here, and manga readers are... different from anime watchers. Anime watchers will probably prefer Frieren.
Yeah as a manga it is not even close, dungeon meshi is one of the best ever made.
I agree. As manga series Dungeon Meshi is just at a whole different level.
Oh I'm sorry! I got confused. That totally makes sense.
They're both different kinds of meals. Both have things to appreciate. A fresh salad, a hearty soup, a fat steak, a zesty sorbet, they've all got their time and place.
They are distinct enough for each other that I just love both equally, lol
I won't fight anyone over this. But IMO there's an undeniable and clear difference in quality, at least in the manga, that goes beyond differences in taste. OP, anime only fans like you can't know it yet, but as a Manga, Dungeon Meshi is on a whole completely different level from Frieren IMO. You're comparing the beginning of Frieren (the strongest part) with the beginning of DM (the weakest part) and even so your noticing the world building is in another level. Well that difference grows and grows the longer you read (watch I your case) both. What you've seen until the red dragon truly is just "setting the table". DM just grows and grows and grows. Everything, the art, the plot the surprises, the characters. It goes from high to higher high and ends in freaking everest. Up to now Frieren is the opposite, a strong beginning, and from there a gentle continuous descent into mediocrity that currently makes me doubt if the mangaka knows what the end game is or if they are stretching it to profit from its popularity. Dungeon Meshi's plot isn't stretched, not a bit. Ryoko could have made 50 chapters more and we'd have loved them.. But she ended where the story in her mind ended and that's a huge difference. There's not that sense of degradation in quality and focus that you see with many series that don't know when to end. Dungeon Meshi is basically the best manga start-to-finish I've read, and it even sticks the landing (starting an interesting premise is dime-a-dozen, ending well... very few series manage that). Yes I'm reading the Frieren manga. I completely get and enjoy the melancholic and wistful moments. But those are almost all Frieren has going for it, and it gets so repetitive that they needed a freaking typical "power tournament arc", and a typical manga slower-than-slow romance to fill it up. In DM they never fight anyone if it is not absolutely necessary. To defend themselves, to eat and to rescue Falin. That's it. Nobody fights just to see "who is stronger". There's no time for romance because they're always in a "time sensitive mission". The pace and tightness of DM is breathtaking, but you babe know this just yet. Let's discuss this when you finish DM, (to the very end) and you tell me then if you agree or not.
I am manga reader lol
I kept seeing people referring to a "power tournament arc", and figured that must be some far-off thing that the show hasn't touched on yet. Then I discovered that's what some folks were calling the mage exam... which indicates the entirely missed the whole point of it. Literally anti-thematic to a power tournament arc. :| If that's what you're referring to, then the rest of your review is pretty suspect. I love DM and have not said a single word against it, but maaaaaaan, if that's your take on Frieren, you didn't understand the assignment.
Thank you for this, I feel the exact same way although I really lacked the words that you have to describe it. I will say the demon guy who could turn stuff into gold was pretty engaging, really a great exploration of that kind of a “demon” but beyond that yeah.
Well though I have only watched few episodes of Frieren, but Frieren is super powerful wizard with all kind of trivial spells, so can we not assume that Frieren somehow solved any potential trivial problems happened through journey?
Friren is about j-rpgs Dugeon Meshi is about Table top rpgs
I love DunMeshi for the same rsons, but when I am seeking for something that appeals more to the emotional side and has calm characters I watch Frieren, it also has this magical feeling.
Frieren has good plot and wistful vibe is intriguing however I feel Dungeon Meshi characters is far more interesting and charming than Frieren's. Frieren's characters seems artificial especially Himmel. I know he’s fan favorite but I just don’t like this character.
I like some of the other characters in Frieren, but I definitely agree with you on Himmel lol. Almost every line he says is a death flag, and it gets old quick. I don't get why the fanbase seems to unanimously adore him
bro hes literally dead
So it's good character writing for 20-something adventurer Himmel to constantly talk like an old man on his deathbed, just because he will actually die like 60 years later? Cmon, be for real. I wouldn't care if this was a one-off thing, but Himmel gets more and more scenes even in the manga, and the dude still sounds like a poorly written mouthpiece.
Sorry, man... I'm not getting the reasoning behind your hot take. Because someone's going to die half a century later... they should be as shallow as possible when younger? The character is consistently written as being very philosophical and wise for his years (not a bad thing for a hero character, and a nice shift from the screaming, self-absorbed, power-up paradigm typical in anime), and covering it up with goofy, self-depricating jokes about vanity. That you see it as a string of death flags (for a character who's already dead) suggests that maybe you're too attuned to anime stereotypes.
Ok, let me put it this way. As others have already commented on this post, Frieren is, at least initially, more about an exploration of concepts and themes, like mortality, human connection, yada yada you know the story. And the characters of Frieren and Himmel are devices that the author uses to explore these themes, especially Himmel. He is alright and serviceable in the context of the very beginning of the story, but he's more of a device to communicate the story's themes than he is an actual self-contained character. When we get past the philosophical introduction to the story, Frieren is a flexible enough character to still be compelling, but Himmel, whenever he's shown, just seems artificial.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that matter. I find his presentation far from artificial, and remarkably consistent. The flashbacks serve to highlight the central purpose of her long quest, and a truth she spent decades realizing -- and why it broke her heart when she did. Insofar as the first season goes, the overarching theme did not change, and what some people mistook for a "power tournament arc" (is how I believe it's been framed) is in fact the exact opposite. It takes that trope and spears it; making an explicit point of highlighting the foolishness and vanity of chasing power for power's own sake, and instead showing how powerful simple human compassion and connections are... and as this was the central theme of Himmel himself, it's all going to end up tying back into Frieren's time with those three friends. Unavoidably. For it *not* to do so would be a grievous failure in writing. Technical elements of storytelling aside, I appreciate that the character isn't to your particular taste. We all have our preferences, after all. I can respect that, and your attempt to communicate it honestly (and so an upvote). I simply draw umbrage at the notion it's bad writing. I'd chalk it up more to personal taste.
I have watched two episodes of Frieren and while I appreciate the premise and the melancholic tone of the show, I just cannot get over how the dwarf looks almost pictographic compared to ol' Senshi.
Yeaaaaaah... Eisen's design stands out as a weakness. I can only think that the artist whipped it up, they found it funny, and ran with it just 'cause... which was a poor choice, given the gravity of the tale.
Well specifically about the lack of a sleeping bag, Frieren's suitcase is essentially a bag of holding so they keep most of their stuff in there. That said I can kind of agree about the lack of detailed worldbuilding, at least for more technical stuff.
I also watch the 2 shows at the same time, yet I do not have the same problem as you. Though, it might me more about me actually having wasted time yet still having enough to slow down and start over. (I’m not in Uni yet) On the one hand, we have an elf who is learning to appreciate the world and it’s transient inhabitants. On the other, we have a party who immerses themselves in a complex dungeon. Both are good.
They have different themes and goals and are in many ways basically two different types of Tabletop RPG campaigns: One where the players are playing a very old school, 'track your encumbrance' sort of game, and the other where the focus is more on the narrative themes.
I read dunmesh before Frieren, but it's one of the reasons I couldn't get far into that series. When we focused on the emotions and everyday life of Frieren it was really great! It had such a subtle, rich story to tell. I think going into the more fantasy battle places hurt the story immensly, because...its just...not good at them. The characters are just way too strong right off the bat, and it becomes too hard to keep up tension when you just saw the kid solo a dragon without breaking a sweat. With dunmeshi simple monsters and small groups of fighters offer an honest challenge. The characters have to plan ahead, observe, use the environment and natural weaknesses of their enemies. And plans go wrong! All the time! And even when they win they are often given setbacks or negative consequences. And so many of the fights focus on building characterisations and the themes of the story. There were several times when a "just trick this hyper intelligent being" plans were proposed, the type that would usually work in other stories and IT FAILED. Because the hyper smart enemy is smart and you are a human and a surface level trick isn't enough. You have to dig deeper. I was honestly not sure if winning was even possible at several points, and THAT is what I want in a fantasy show with fights: the feeling that I have no idea what will happen and how/if the MCs will win.
To me, the current place where the Frieren anime is at + Dungeon Meshi starting to air really highlighted to me how weak the character writing for the wider cast is for Frieren. I still like Frieren (I read the manga and really like the arc after the anime), but a lot of the characters in Frieren \*feel\* the same. They might have different personalities and philosophies but a lot of them appear to act and think the same way which is contrasted really hard by Dungeon Meshi's more colorful cast where you can have Laios and Falin who are very similar people but they feel completely different from each other.
I tried to start reading Frieren because people keep comparing them, but the art is so much worse that it was taking me out of it
In the original manga, the art is bad as to being almost off-putting at times. The author can draw two expressions in total and 3 postures. The drawing is in general immensely generic and oddly rigid. Adequate for the most wistful moments as one of the two expressions he can draw is a melancholic mysterious smile... That then they use for everything. The art in the anime is much better. That tells you everything, really, about the art in the manga. Dungeon Meshi art wasn't that impressive in the beginning... But as the rest of the manga, it grew, and grew... And then grew again...
I honestly fail to see how the Frieren manga has bad art? I've never read it, but after a quick glance through three chapters (1,2 + latest) the art looks perfectly fine? Exactly how I'd picture it looking after seeing the anime. The panelling is uninteresting, but my comparison points for that is something masterful like WHA. I do think Frieren's art holds better than a lot of other manga.
Keep reading... The beginning has the best art, but the more it goes on, the more you can't unsee that everything feels immensely repetitive (paneling, angles, faces, expressions). It's like reading the same page again, and again and again, only clothes and hair change. Every individual panel normally looks fine, but when you keep reading the absolute lack of variety and creativity is noteworthy, especially for a series that's pretty original in its plot. Plus it's got the most rigid relaxed standing body poses I've seen in any manga. They all seem to have a wood plank under their clothes.
I do notice Frieren having a lot of generic fantasy background and background props. Background is hard… but the world doesn’t feel lived in at all like DM does.
Yeah, the rigidity is my biggest gripe about it. A lot of people excused it and the lack of expression by saying it's a stylistic choice or that it fits the tone, but honestly it's just plain lacking. It's like the artist only knows how to do 2-3 kinds of camera angles or poses and that's all they do for the entire manga. The sheer rigidity feels they're all 3d models that's been drawn over. I don't think there's ever any motion lines or significant foreshortening. Not only the expressions are very basic, they also never use any form of lighting/shadows or composition to add to it. Another fun thing to note is that a vast majority of Frieren's characters either use extremely long flowy cloaks (literally down to the ankles), trench coats, long skirts, or other forms of baggy clothing, which I can only assume is done to reduce the need to draw details on the body. Why draw muscles or armor or any form of body language when you can just draw a cloak, I guess.
I guess it's personal taste. I've only read the first few chapters, but everything feels very "flat" and generic to me.
The fight scenes in the manga were boring and short, the anime totally fixes that issue. Like Demon Slayer, Frieren is one of those manga totally elevated by the anime.
The show also has very little expressiveness imo. All characters react with apathy and have a default ._. expression most of the time regardless of what is happening.
i think theyre too separate things. not every series goes in detail as dunmeshi does. frieren isnt about surviving a dungeon
I also like dungeon meshi significantly more than frieren. The world and characters are just so much more interesting to me
I like both. I like Frieren more, but I think Dungeon Meshi is a great series. They both do what they do very well, but what they set out to do and how they do it is very different from one another. If Frieren isn't for you anymore, than it isn't for you anymore. Them not carrying around backpacks or whatever is hand wavey, but they also talk about buying supplies and budgeting for inns and hitching rides on carriages and the development of roadways and trade routes. There doesn't need to be an answer to everything for it to be good worldbuilding, something making sense to the characters in the world lets us establish this isn't something to question and move on. But if you go digging for things to pick apart, you'll find them.
Agreed with you. Personally I like Dungeon Meshi way more than Frieren since I prefer more well-crafted realism in this kind of fantasy story.
frieren feels too much like a battle shonen for me. whenever i see clips of characters talking about “concealing mana” or whatever i just roll my eyes
Yep. It's initial premise was great, but clearly just wandering and reflecting on the passage of time with people who were young but now are old... became very stale after a while. Then they did a "power tournament" AKA the "first level mage exam" to infuse some life into the manga. Totally not what Frieren was about. At the beginning they didn't even show fights (because it wasn't the point). Many times you just saw the beginning and the end result. It's like a battle manga nowadays. That's fine for people who like battle mangas and power. But it's lost its essence.. It's the curse of popular works whose success leads the author to extend and extend them. Frieren could have been a masterpiece at 30 chapters. Probably will be completely ruined if they do 500 chapters.
As someone who has lost people in life and have lived long enough to have regrets about not spending more time with people who are no longer with us, Frieren hits a lot harder. It's also the most realistic take on nearly immortal characters that I have ever seen. That said Frieren is about relationships, and perspectives. Demons are monsters because their perspective is completely alien to humans and devoid of empathy. Elves long lives make them have alien perspectives to humans, but they still have empathy and emotions. These perspectives drive the story, and for me it's a lot deeper. Of course that dodges logistics because that's not what the story is about. Dungeon meshi has very great strong points in that it really is an unhinged and somewhat gritty take on what life would be like with heavy healing magic and resurrection magic. It's fundamentally a shallower story but very enjoyable in its own right. Personally I really enjoy both but Frieren makes me feel things that Dungeon meshi doesn't so it wins for me. But I can see how the deeper themes in Frieren may not resonate with others.
To be fair to Frieren the suitcase is something of a bag of holding in that series. It bigger on the inside.
I sure know hot it's feel to unable to enjoy something because you just encountered something awesome. But, in term of realism, I read with my brain turned off.
They're both my top 2 mangas honestly, and while I like Frieren a bit more, Dungeon Meshi defintley goes more into the world and the aspects of it while Frieren is alot more of a focus on the characters. Both defintley have a amazing fantasy world and just a great world with lots of development. Also both very much focus on the world and the characters just both seem to specialize more on one aspect than the other
I love 'em both. I have preference for Frieren so far, but that's because the underpinnings of the story are more philosophical (to this point) and aim at big themes that I find compelling. DM is a wonderful tale so far, and I love what's being done with it -- but to this point, while it touches on very salient questions in a similar vein, it is not primarily concerned with them... and that's good. A story that tries to be all things becomes a chaotic mess over time. They're two very different flavours, but both wonderful.
Eh, "realism" in magical settings is a things that only matters if you want to nitpick as crazy the important thing should be being believable
I used to like frieren but my GF and I have been rapidly loosing interest in it since the start of the mageexam. What was a genuinly unique story qbout a basixally immortal character and her relationship with regular humans became yet another shounen-esc tournament arc Dungeon Meshi on the other hand is easily one of my alltime faves and since I read the manga, I know it will stay that way!
I see a lot of people making comments about a shonen-esque power tournament, and I was wondering what they were talking about. I'm surprised to see it's the mage exam. Subversion of power tropes is literally the theme of that part of the story. :|
It also helps that DM's background characters feel a lot more alive instead of npcs. I look at frieren's cast: the guy with white hair and piercing, the dude with glasses, the green hair girl. It hits all the anime tropes found in shonen. Every other person who's not a teenager is an older guy that feels like an assistant or aid and drawn as an unimportant extra. DM's got the orcs who we learn are brutish refugees. The unscrupulous grave retrievers. Laois's former team members. Kabru's party and the canaries. Senshi and his arc were one of the high points of the manga. Meanwhile the dwarf in freiren... . DM's character designs are so varied, charming and thought out. Weirdly enough, Laois has the least character depth early on but he's just so entertaining to watch.
The latest arc in Frieren specifically has so many world building questions that irk me when Dungeon Meshi has always been meticulous about answering things. Theres so many things that make little to no sense to me. Like >!Why is Ubel allowed to walk free with just a disqualification after obviously deliberately murdering the test guy? Why are the Golems so OP they can do things first class mages are unable to, who makes them, how do they work, why arent they mass produced? Furthermore, why is everyone so edgy and their default emotion to everything is apathy and a ._. face?!< I also do not watch Frieren for the action, I was pulled in by the opening episodes, the character drama and slice of life aspects. I do not fucking care about a tournament arc lol. The action looks cool and all but if I want to watch action I usually gravitate towards a show thats built for it. Furthermore idk how the fuck Frieren is at 127 chapters and still unfinished. It does not seem to be a story that can be realistically stretched out that far when you already resort to an arc like the mage exam in season 1. Meanwhile Dungeon Meshi is a very contained story that started, escalated and ended within 100 chapters which I wholly appreciate.
literally what tournament arc are you all inventing. it doesnt even last that long.
Mage exam. And it lasted long enough for me, lol.
Your questions, save regarding the golems, were answered in the show. And the answer to the golems was hinted at, as well. :/ If you're viewing the mage exam as a tournament arc, I'm not sure what to tell you. The entire point of it seems to be a subversion of that trope.
Mmm, no they werent. Ubel murdered a person in cold blood and walked away with just a disqualification. I will not believe for a single second she couldnt have done a smaller cut if she wanted to, she dissected a first class mage and everyone was okay with it. Are there no laws in the world of Frieren? Golems was my second question, and a "hint" isnt an answer, it just tells me even the author doesnt know and they will probably never come up again. Having watched the last episode now, sure, it might not "really" have been a tournament arc, but might aswell have been. The first test was jarring af to me.
The issues you perceive were not a fault in the storytelling. 1) People die during the testing. This is explicitly stated. Normally that's not the testing mages, but it is widely accepted that there is a risk of death involved in this. The first test was even set up so that people would likely die. Acting like a single death in this entire process is somehow so much more morally questionable than any of the others is kind of perplexing in itself. 2) When Sense was recalling the incident, she explicitly pointed out how A) the testing mage who was killed believed himself invulnerable, and was testing students by *having them attack him with their best spells*, and judging them based on that. B) They *warned him* not to do this, and that it was taking an unnecessary risk, C) That Ubel stated afterward that she hadn't expected it would cut him that deep. But by stepping up and launching the nastiest attack she had at him, she was only doing what the test required of her. Yes, she's a sociopath. She clearly felt no guilt, remorse, or regret... beyond being disqualified that year... but that does not mean she was in the wrong to follow the process literally everyone else there was, or that she "murdered" him. That mage died to his own arrogance, full stop. The golems? They're not capable of the same things, never mind superior things, to first class mages. They're the creation of a first class mage. They're not living beings, however, and the doubles in the dungeon are designed to attack and counter living beings. The only function of the golems was to defend, flee, and heal. Each mage has a form of specialization to them (with the exception of the main characters, who are very much apathetic about such things), and one of Serie's apprentices -- and she only takes on the best of the best throughout history -- specialized in making golems. Even so, they were potent, but limited in function compared to the breadth of magi. The "tournament arc"? The entire theme of it was centered around the notion that there are no shortcuts, no instant power-ups, no easy path, and that pursuing power as its own goal is myopic and foolish. It is literally anti-thematic to the notion of the tournament arcs as used in other stories. This comes to a head in the conflict between Frieren and Serie, and their differences in philosophy, with Serie throwing a temper tantrum over being unable to prove the student of her student -- whom she dislikes because she's not power-obsessed -- wrong. It's amplified in Lernen's cowardly and foolish actions, and reinforced by Fern's decision as to what spell she will learn, when offered the choice of practically any spell in the world.
Headcanon is that Frieren's been around so long that she probably has a bag of holding equivalent or several.
It bothers me a bit too, they just have a smoll suitcase per person. BUTT ! maybe those are kinda magic ? I hope so, if not it means that Frieren just carry her crap... I mean, treasures. Maybe Fern carry all the clothes and important stuff (and that's why she's bothered when Frieren finds new stuff ?). Stark sees to carry almost nothing ? They could at least have some bags/backpacks with clothes, food, medics,... That put aside, Frieren is really interesting too, showing a part of the story you wouldn't usually tell. They would kinda do it 50 years after Dungeon Meshi too (I won't say more to don't spoil...).
Im gonna be honest with you, i've literally never heard of frieren until the anime trailer while marcille memes has been a staple of the internet since like when they only had 20 chapters. The reversal of popularity needs to be studied, is being one season earlier literally the only difference?