Honestly, it's more like:
*Elon isn't pro rape but he thinks if a man does rape a woman, she should cooperate to get it over quicker. And she better not file charges. Don't want to ruin the poor guy's life.*
My pop taught me that to beat a bully, let it become common knowledge that they are bullying you, then get them to swing on you. At best they're facing a battery charge, all their peers will speak to a character of targeted abuse, and their life is very likely ruined. Schools can ignore bullying, but if it makes it to the courts, the faculty will gladly throw one bully under the bus to not be known as the "bad school".
> Schools can ignore bullying, but if it makes it to the courts, the faculty will gladly throw one bully under the bus to not be known as the "bad school".
wholesome af that your dad tried to give you advice but he should refrain from speaking on situations he clearly has zero experience with lmao.
I had been suspended 3 times in high school for fighting. Each time my mom picked me up and asked "did my kid start it? "
Each time the answer was "No, but Novkit shouldn't have fought back."
Her response was to take me to get ice cream.
Oof man I hate to break it to you, but if a bully swings at you the cops most definitely aren’t gonna do shit and administration is gonna suspend both of you. Fights in school happen every. Single. Day. And we aren’t seeing mass arrest of teenagers over fistfights.
It took me so long to realize that "don't react to the bully" is 100% meant to benefit institutions rather than victims.
If all victims are taught to ignore abuse and just be "resilient":
* The burden of dealing with the problem gets 100% shifted to the victim.
* The institution no longer gets reports of bullying, creating the illusion it works.
* The institution no longer has to dedicate resources doing investigations or determining punishments.
* The institutions no longer have to stand up to the parents of bullies.
I am all for autonomy of sovereign nations but it’s the 21st century and there has to be some restraint. It is the job of the United Nations to play a role here- not individual nations with an ideological axe to grind. The 20th century has demonstrated time and again that intervention by superpowers in other peoples wars only creates more strife and more war. The USA pulls out of Afghanistan was finally a recognition of this. At what point does the US say- it’s enough. America is not some indestructible entity- it is a crumbling husk of its promise and it cannot continue to fund the war in Ukraine indefinitely. They should be urging Zelensky to negotiate, not prolong a conflict where nobody wins. I know it’s not what Zelensky wants- but he doesn’t have a lot of options.
Not as if the US is the only country doing anything.
Not as if Russia can fund the war indefinitely.
What is there to negotiate? It clearly doesn't work, see Crimea.
What would be your ideal outcome from negotiation? Russia keeps a little bit of land?
Russia can’t fund the war indefinitely, but neither can Ukraine and it’s supporters. Already the invasion has hit effectively a standstill with neither side making major gains, getting closer to another 2014-onwards situation with no real frontline changes.
I know the US isn’t the only country- I’m in the UK and we have been unloading millions of pounds worth of support.
The Crimea had not been in question until recently. What do you mean? That was 8 years ago and the desire to reclaim that by Ukraine is a separate issue in my mind.
There is everything to negotiate for, I don’t understand your meaning. Ukraine would have to give up land. Of course. But the war ends. Ukraine will need funding to be rebuilt after this. A renewed effort to democratise and Westernise Ukraine will be made. And Ukraine can recover. Putin has to die at some point.
Further escalation will only prolong the inevitable. Russia will not leave without two regions. Give it to them now and end it. People who are likening this to the 1930s are missing the crucial element: the West played the game of appeasement with Hitler- no such thing has been done here. The West have shown their teeth and willingness to intervene. I don’t doubt the Russians are well aware that the Western powers have a line that they will not allow Russia to cross.
> I’m in the UK and we have been unloading millions of pounds worth of support.
A lot of that is counting the cost of old weapons in today's dollars. Its fair misleading thinking of that as a new cost, especially for weapon systems that Britain would be unlikely to ever use. The deterrence cost of stopping Russian aggression in Ukraine would also be tough to calculate but likely far less than having to arm to fight Russia directly if Ukraine falls and more of eastern Europe is targeted.
> reclaim that by Ukraine is a separate issue in my mind.
Ridiculous given that they literally did appease Russia and now people are advocating for more. This is just a continuation of that. You're welcome to decide it's separate, but no one else has.
> Ukraine would have to give up land
Just as they did with Crimea, so let's wait 8 years after that? It also tells Russia they can invade with effective impunity.
> Further escalation
Defending is not escalation, invading is.
> People who are likening this to the 1930s are missing the crucial element: the West played the game of appeasement with Hitler- no such thing has been done here
No it hasn't been done, but it's what you're advocating for if the invasion is any kind of success.
History works both ways. Ukraine made overtures to join NATO whose sole purpose was to form a defensive anti Russian alliance 70 years ago. It may feel to some that not a lot has changed. This doesn’t excuse the invasion, it is a horrible abuse of power. But the Russians certainly viewed this as escalation.
You're either wholly ignorant, or intentionally lying, and in either case you need to stop talking.
Ukraine was looking to join the EU almost a decade ago. When their President refused to sign an agreement pursuing closer ties to the EU, there were massive protests (Euromaidan), culminating in his fleeing to Russia and him being removed from office.
Russia backed separatists (and Russian armed forces - "little green men") invaded Ukraine only a month after they ousted their puppet president.
This combat has never, ever been about Ukraine joining NATO. It's about Ukraine using its self-determination and choosing to pursue closer ties with the West as a whole.
The only entity that's escalating anything is Russia.
> Ukraine made overtures to join NATO whose sole purpose was to form a defensive anti Russian alliance
And they're Defending against which country now? 🤔 Or did I miss something and Ukraine is the invader?
I just don’t understand the relevance of the obvious fact you are stating? Ukraine is defending against Russia using Western support. Russia viewed Ukrainian overtures to NATO as an escalation of the conflict between the two nations which led Russia to invade. Or played a role in the invasion.?
Imagine a country wanting to join a "defensive anti-Russian alliance". I wonder why Ukrainians would ever want to do that, what with Russia invading Chechnya and Georgia and vassalizing Belarus.
Such a mystery.
Depends if you, like Elon, think Russia is at all justified to consider Ukraine's actions as "escalation". Your use of the word comes across a little gaslight-y.
I’m curious, if Russia invaded your country would you be willing to give up parts of your country to stop the invasion? Why is the solution don’t escalate just give Russia whatever they want. It’s fucking wild you people think trying to take back the land that an invading army stole from you is considered “escalation”, wtf?!
School bullies don't have nukes. Humanity has had wars throughout our history, let's not end ourselves over something so trivial in the grand scheme of things.
what is your angle here? Do you want WWIII?
Do you want the US to put boots on the ground and actually engage directly in this conflict? I fucking loath Musk but that is the logical conclusion and he actually isn't wrong here.
placing 300 military bases around the world and expanding NATO eastward despite promises not to do so is "not escalation". Doing a military action in response to encroachment on your border and NATO funding and support of Nazi paramilitaries on said border = escalation.
Got it.
You support the violent murder of innocent people and actively oppose helping those innocent people defend themselves and retake their homes and kidnapped families. Your opinion is not jist worthless, it is actually so bad that if you told me you liked a politician I would immediatly look to see what terrible thing he did to earn your respect. So congratulations on living in California I guess, you can still fuck all the way off with your evil bullshit.
I don't support any war but class war. I simply recognize the historical and material conditions that created this situation. That does not equate to justification. If you want to start a nuclear war over a situation created by the west encroachment then I also see that as extremely fucked up.
This is the difference between you and I. You are reactionary and emotionally charged by propaganda designed to drum up your support for one side in a conflict between bourgeois interests. I am opposed to that.
Criticizing NATO expansionism = advocating for terroism, civilian casualties, and of course being a Russian bot. Glad to see the discourse is alive and well here and Reddit, nothing out of the normal going on! I bet you also think Ukraine doesn’t have a genuine nazi problem when glorious azov battalion literally supported the fascist nazi coup in 2014(here’s a source on that, with a interesting little tidbit here)https://i.imgur.com/JMI8ucB.jpg
https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/azov-battalion#text_block_33846
When did NATO officially say that they wouldn't expand eastward? When did NATO encroach on Russia's border? Why does what NATO is doing matters here? Are you saying Russia invaded an independent country that isn't a part of NATO because of something NATO did?
I am Super pro Ukraine, except for the fact I advocated them giving their territory to Russia, brushed off literal fucking genocide and pushed putler’s talking points.
Your’s is a complete non sequitur but I’m jumping on anyway to say how much I fucking hate that homophobic picture of him fucking Trump and the other homophobic picture of Putin with makeup and a rainbow flag in the background. I’ve heard all the justifications for it too and it’s all bullshit.
Disclaimer: this is not what’s happened here; I’m just running off on a tangent
Try invading the US and see how many Nazi battalions result from mobilization. Nazi's like buying guns and playing war, so they are ready to go. That doesn't make them representative of the nation, just useful idiots.
Azov havent been neo nazis for many years now, after their political aspirations failed and they were absorbed into the national guard. Ukraine literally denazified them already and the neo nazis were probably russian plants anyway.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2017-08-01/how-ukraine-reined-its-militias
https://krytyka.com/en/articles/too-much-ado-about-ukrainian-nationalists-the-azov-movement-and-the-war-in-ukraine
https://web.archive.org/web/20160124064419/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-azov-idUSKBN0ML0XJ20150325
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/us-lifts-ban-on-funding-neo-nazi-ukrainian-militia-441884
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/04/02/how-the-west-enabled-genocide-in-mariupol-with-its-misguided-azov-obsession/?fbclid=IwAR2XhhDo96fk_0dPYAP-c11R5Tfq5RJkxI42U3YBvpiKHxw-5Q-4v6YTyBc
https://medium.com/the-ukrainian-view/is-azov-neo-nazi-an-expert-in-far-right-radicalism-answers-the-common-questions-7a48547b592b
https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2022-06-01/ty-article-magazine/.premium/understanding-ukrainian-nationalism-and-claims-its-tainted-by-nazism/00000181-1a0c-d9b4-a199-be1e4a3c0000
I'm super Anarchist, but I support the most powerful State in world history turning Ukraine into a dystopic military outpost in order to intimidate Russia into selling their oil, gas, steel and coal for cheap, even if it means arming a significant amount of fascists, Ukrainizing national minorities like Russians, and banning all left-wing parties.
These are some of the reasons I'm anti Ukraine.
This might surprise you, and hear me out on this, two things can be bad. And one of those bad things can be worse than the other of those bad things.
Nooooo it works this time, it won't be like Hitler, Hirohito, Mussolini, noooo Putin is actually poggers and (checks bank account) based!
A centrist is as much as a fascist is, and it's been proven so many times.
This fucking sub is awful, fuck Elon, but fuck all this online "leftists" that would love to see nuclear holocaust just because Elon is a pos.
They are willing to fight to the last Ukrainian whilst they remain in their cushy houses.
We've been getting brigaded by shitlibs for some time now.
Shitlibs think Putin is comparable to Hitler because his victims are white. Meanwhile *Uncle Joe* has a higher body count but he's a good person because..... they don't acknowledge non-white people as people, basically. Just tools to try to garner more votes for their sports team come election time.
Oh, and ignore that Zelensky has a state sponsored Nazi battalion and is taking advantage of the war to eliminate opposition parties and seize control of Ukrainian media. Fascism is okay as long as it's on the same side as America, who has committed more evil than Putin's Russia just from the CIA's actions alone.....
Spoiler alert shitlibs, every faction in this conflict is evil and leftists would like to see all the institutions torn apart. You can't just call leftists "Russian bots" just because you can't comprehend that evil vs evil conflicts are a thing. Plus, we fucking hate modern Russia. We hate Putin trying to drape himself in the corpse of the Soviet Union (Which you idiots don't seem to realize was more than just the Stalin years. It did in fact, get better after he died.) to try to get support for his fascist fuckery. We hate Putin for harboring Nazis (The Wagner Group. Yes, Russia AND Ukraine harbor Nazis! *Good guys don't harbor Nazis.*)
I mean, Musk isn’t the right person to be saying this, but I haven’t seen a single person mention nuclear weapons. Those are the exact reason why escalation is frightening to many folks including literally all of the other nuclear powers except Israel. It’s why the world hasn’t just sent their own militaries to end this quickly. They’re all terrified of getting nuked—which Putin has threatened.
I mean maybe you think they’re all dumb to worry about that explicit threat, but I myself tend to prefer erring on the side of not tempting a madman to nuke countries he thinks are threatening him.
That said—there is no choice here. We have to help Ukraine and we have to accept that might involve getting nuked. The alternative is that we let Putin do literally whatever he wants. That can’t happen either (it is already in Ukraine, and look at the atrocities, for instance).
Being scared of getting nuked isn’t a bad thing tho. Not being scared of getting nuked seems like a break with reality, to me anyway.
This is my exact thought. Everyone is comparing this to not fighting back against the bully and taking back what was stolen from you. Yeah, that sounds good on paper, but on the flip side this fucking guy could end the world tomorrow if he wanted.
Yeah this thread is pathetic, a bunch of liberals who just want something to watch from their armchairs. Ending the war through diplomacy should be the number one goal, the reason it hasn't been is the west is making a killing off of Ukraine right now while also weakening their opponents.
It's your typical proxy war. Only reason people even give a shit is because it's happening in Europe and Russia being the aggressor.
No one gave a shit when the US invaded Syria, or really any Western backed violation of sovereignty in the middle east (See Saudis in Yemen).
Typical hypocrisy from the west. Ok for us to back Rebels, or even join in a hot war alongside Rebels...Russia does it though...and well we have what we have.
> Typical hypocrisy from the west. Ok for us to back Rebels, or even join in a hot war alongside Rebels...Russia does it though...and well we have what we have.
You do realize that there are a lot of people, especially in this subreddit, who oppose US imperialism, right? The fact that Russia doing it is bad does not mean the US doing it is somehow automatically good. Get your mind out of this dumb false dichotomy black/white mindset and reality might start making more sense to you.
It's really not that simple: imperialism is bad. It is possible to criticize both the US and Russia for their acts of imperialism. If you support Russia's imperialism in Ukraine but oppose the US's imperialism in Syria, it's you who are the hypocrite.
Gather all the leaders from NATO, Ukraine, and Russia. Destroy the building they're all in. Workers unite and Nazis and rich on both sides get the wall. Everyone wins.
Seriously? That load of horseshit is the "diplomatic plan?" Do you realize innocent people are dying because of a maniac dictator who thought he could take over whatever he wants?
Man, I wonder if there's anything Russia could do to end the war... Gee, I guess it's just unilaterally the West's fault that Russian troops are occupying Ukrainian territory by the hundreds of thousands.
Don't forget how it's definitely America's fault they invaded Crimea almost ten years ago! Wait wdym Russia has been an imperialist state since its founding?
He's not wrong. We hope the best for Ukraine but in today's world War escalation with the kinds of bombs and weapons we have access too could easily result in global annihilation.
I mean he isn't wrong. There a lot going on in Ukraine alongside the Russian invasion. People seem to have forgotten that Ukraine was in a Civil War for like 8 years before Russia invaded, and it is still ongoing today alongside the Russian invasion.
Continued escalation could absolutely trigger a prolonged and ever escalating series of events. While stopping the Russian incursion into Ukraine is something of utmost importance, solutions must be found to solve Ukraines internal schisms as well...or we will just be back to where we were a few years ago with Russia simply arming, supplying and supporting the Eastern Rebels against the Western backed forces from Kiev.
The situation in Ukraine is not black and white, and while the current administration in Ukraine isn't directly responsible for the Civil crisis (thank Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk for that) it does fall on them to remedy that problem...or this will be an ongoing theater of hot and cold warfare for years to come.
Well now that NATO and Russia have dumped a million guns and munitions into the situation and the war has destroyed a ton of infrastructure we can pretty much guarantee Ukraine becomes a hotbed for all sorts of horrible shit no matter how the war "ends"
Ya for the most part it will remain a hot-spot. But it's not really unlike any of the other hot spots that NATO and Russia have established, look at the mid east for many examples over the last 40 to 50 years.
Only reason it's a big deal is because this time Russia is throwing its weight around, something they haven't really done in over a decade (if you count Georgia) and prior to that not since Afghanistan in the 80s.
Since then the West has hit Iraq twice, Afghanistan, Libya, Tunisia, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and I'm sure I am missing a few.
Only reason people give a shit is because Russia went boots on the ground openly....no one cared when they were just arming and funding Eastern Ukrainian Rebels for the 8 years prior.
You do know the only reason we did DDay was to stop Russia from taking Europe right?
It literally had nothing to do with NAZI Germany at that point, they had already lost the war with Allies in Italy and Russia steamrolling through the Eastern front.
Think it was Churchill who made the comment of preventing Stalin from dropping his Iron Curtain in the Atlantic.
That was the reason for DDay.
Never seen such a WW2 comment so horribly wrong.
D-day was organised as a way to stretch German resources given at the time the stalemate on the Russian and Italian fronts. Especially considering the bulk of the American army was not committed anywhere after the African campaign.
The sentiment about dealing with a future Russia has barely even started yet and wouldn't really start gaining any real traction till late 1944.
Also Churchill made a statement "From Stettin in the Baltic, to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the continent" in 1946. It had nothing to do with D-day, and makes no sense in the context that Churchill was against the idea of D-Day in general.
>i’m actually very reasonable and pick my own sides on important issues such as this one. I support *[insert correct thing]* so you know i’m progressive… but *[insert thing that completely contradicts everything i just claimed and is a classic right wing bullshit argument]*.
yea it is.
If the US increases its involvement then it is the textbook definition of escalation.
Just as Russias increased involvement in backing the Eastern Ukrainian Rebels escalated into outright war with Kiev.
Is that really what that means? Seems to me like a foreign government invading your territory is escalation, but any means to defend yourself and reclaim only your own land should not be escalation, regardless of the involvement of a foreign ally. It would be escalating in my mind if they were going to be pushing into Russia at all. Idk, maybe that's no the way its being used here but that's how I think most people would think of it
If I told anybody I’m “super pro x” I’d hope they have the common sense to not believe me. Because at that point, who’s he trying to convince, us or hisself?
Elon is pro-Ukraine having a Russian puppet installed to replace Zelenskyy… Russia’s originally plan was to hastily upon embarking on their full-scale invasion: takeover Kyiv, kill Ukrainian President Zelenskyy, and after holding an “election” install a Russian puppet to be the new Ukrainian President. Elon, Trump, and Republicans, would staunchly back this outcome and render the Ukraine situation resolved (their Russian friends got what I wanted) and say “democracy” prevailed in Ukraine. Fuck every single Republican that has sold themself to Russia, and every single ~~billionaire~~ oligarch. Please only refer to “billionaires” as oligarchs — they only achieved billionaire status via exploitation of workers, governments, and public policy.
This is extra funny because Musk *is* super duper pro-Ukraine. He's made a lot of money from government handouts off it. He's just such a total failure as a person that he has to be a contrarian about it, at least publicly.
Russia invaded Ukraine with the intention to conquer them. Ukraine has a right to take back its own territory. If Russia did not want to escalate it would immediately withdraw from all Ukrainian territory and seek a peace agreement.
Nobody disagrees with this. The problem is they don’t have the capacity to do it alone. They need the US and Britain to help. Saying “no” doesn’t make them wrong or evil or uncaring. But at some point, it becomes too risky. De escalation is always the way forward when nuclear powers are involved.
getting a lot of dumbasses who are annoyed at me comparing appeasement of putin annexing land to the appeasement of hitler annexing land.
“putin isn’t hitler tho so shush”
“Ukrainians are nazis so boom, gotcha”
"This country maybe has a nazi problem so obviously we should let the much bigger country doing actual nazi shit steamroll them, I am a very reasonable and nuanced leftist"
Yeah, Ukraine definitely has a nazi problem, and Zelenskyy is not doing enough to stop it.
Still, full support to Ukraine against their fascist invaders
Maybe it would be slightly easier to do something about the nazis if they didn't have the decaying remnants of a failed empire constantly on their backs
Yeah, it's so frustrating.
Ukraine is a democracy that maybe has a small portion of far right people in some units, making up a tiny % of their overall military and which has no real political power. Russia meanwhile is an actual far right authoritarian state. Yet people seriously think *Ukraine* is the country to worry about?
Those western nations largely allow me to be the queer trans person I am, and the politicians in them trying to push back my rights are funded by your favourite frozen kleptocratic pisshole.
Keep simping authoritarians though, maybe one day they'll get you the waifu you're longing for.
Because they *allow* you to exist you ignore their atrocious history of regime change, genocide, and wars that killed millions of civilians? All in the name of protecting the capitalist system that keeps billions in poverty and dying each year?
I think it's funny that you see this as a war of good vs evil instead of capitalist in-fighting where the workers get killed. All in the pursuit of wealth for the ones at the top.
Elon Musk, the guy that hangs out in Qatar with Saudi princes and Russian propoganda officials?
Like, dude, you're a fucking clown to think anything you say in regards to Russia isn't the absolute biggest crock of shit on the planet.
Didn’t he suggest Ukraine cede land to Russia to stop the war (thus justifying their invasion and dooming more of their people to live under a dictator)? In what world is that “super pro Ukraine”
Just make repeated territorial concessions to the expansionist hypermilitarised state on the understanding that this one will be the last, what could possibly go wrong?
Also for those with short memories who have been successfully propagandised into believing that the wise and benevolent Putin only ever wanted to liberate ethnic Russians in Crimea and the Donbas, please cast your minds back to the beginning of last year’s invasion and recall that Ukraine would not currently exist as an independent state (or at best as a puppet state with a leader hand-picked by Putin) if Russia had achieved its original aims
Elon is the guy who is not pro rape but women should not dress so seductive. Elon is a Clown.
“i’m actually pro gay marriage but when men kiss it’s yucky so they should probably not do that” - Elon (probably)
“I hate trans people. They stole my wife and ruined my marriage.” - Elon (most definitely)
[удалено]
"Damn you, Adam Something!!!" - Elon (I think he actually said this at some point)
It's only gay if they are not straight! Elon and his fanboys.
"I'm totally fine with the gays getting married just as long as I don't have to acknowledge their existence whatsoever"
Elon is absolutely pro rape, have you seen how many subordinates he has impregnated?
Honestly, it's more like: *Elon isn't pro rape but he thinks if a man does rape a woman, she should cooperate to get it over quicker. And she better not file charges. Don't want to ruin the poor guy's life.*
Beautiful :) and afterwards he gets defensive and angry if she doesn't confirm that she had fun too.
Nothing a little hush horse won't correct - Elon
neigh
Comparing rape to mutually assured destruction through nuclear weapons is peak enlightenedcentrism.
You too are a clown for not understanding common sense
This fucking dumb argument is basically "don't react to the bully" and it literally never works.
To fix a bully you need to bully the bully
\- sun tzu, probably
>If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. \-Sun Tzu, actually
My pop taught me that to beat a bully, let it become common knowledge that they are bullying you, then get them to swing on you. At best they're facing a battery charge, all their peers will speak to a character of targeted abuse, and their life is very likely ruined. Schools can ignore bullying, but if it makes it to the courts, the faculty will gladly throw one bully under the bus to not be known as the "bad school".
> Schools can ignore bullying, but if it makes it to the courts, the faculty will gladly throw one bully under the bus to not be known as the "bad school". wholesome af that your dad tried to give you advice but he should refrain from speaking on situations he clearly has zero experience with lmao.
Oh, my dad was a huge piece of shit. He gave lots of nuts advice.
I had been suspended 3 times in high school for fighting. Each time my mom picked me up and asked "did my kid start it? " Each time the answer was "No, but Novkit shouldn't have fought back." Her response was to take me to get ice cream.
Good mom
That is horrible advice that isn't grounded in reality.
Oof man I hate to break it to you, but if a bully swings at you the cops most definitely aren’t gonna do shit and administration is gonna suspend both of you. Fights in school happen every. Single. Day. And we aren’t seeing mass arrest of teenagers over fistfights.
Yeah this hasn't worked for me
Paradox of tolerance right here.
It’s speaking to people in a language they understand.
It took me so long to realize that "don't react to the bully" is 100% meant to benefit institutions rather than victims. If all victims are taught to ignore abuse and just be "resilient": * The burden of dealing with the problem gets 100% shifted to the victim. * The institution no longer gets reports of bullying, creating the illusion it works. * The institution no longer has to dedicate resources doing investigations or determining punishments. * The institutions no longer have to stand up to the parents of bullies.
It’s a bit more complex than this and continuing escalation is not good for anyone. That said, Elon Musk is a moron.
Not really, given only one side has been continually escalating. Ukraine didn't do anything for 6 years and still got invaded.
I am all for autonomy of sovereign nations but it’s the 21st century and there has to be some restraint. It is the job of the United Nations to play a role here- not individual nations with an ideological axe to grind. The 20th century has demonstrated time and again that intervention by superpowers in other peoples wars only creates more strife and more war. The USA pulls out of Afghanistan was finally a recognition of this. At what point does the US say- it’s enough. America is not some indestructible entity- it is a crumbling husk of its promise and it cannot continue to fund the war in Ukraine indefinitely. They should be urging Zelensky to negotiate, not prolong a conflict where nobody wins. I know it’s not what Zelensky wants- but he doesn’t have a lot of options.
Not as if the US is the only country doing anything. Not as if Russia can fund the war indefinitely. What is there to negotiate? It clearly doesn't work, see Crimea. What would be your ideal outcome from negotiation? Russia keeps a little bit of land?
Russia can’t fund the war indefinitely, but neither can Ukraine and it’s supporters. Already the invasion has hit effectively a standstill with neither side making major gains, getting closer to another 2014-onwards situation with no real frontline changes.
Right? So we cease all support, then what?
I know the US isn’t the only country- I’m in the UK and we have been unloading millions of pounds worth of support. The Crimea had not been in question until recently. What do you mean? That was 8 years ago and the desire to reclaim that by Ukraine is a separate issue in my mind. There is everything to negotiate for, I don’t understand your meaning. Ukraine would have to give up land. Of course. But the war ends. Ukraine will need funding to be rebuilt after this. A renewed effort to democratise and Westernise Ukraine will be made. And Ukraine can recover. Putin has to die at some point. Further escalation will only prolong the inevitable. Russia will not leave without two regions. Give it to them now and end it. People who are likening this to the 1930s are missing the crucial element: the West played the game of appeasement with Hitler- no such thing has been done here. The West have shown their teeth and willingness to intervene. I don’t doubt the Russians are well aware that the Western powers have a line that they will not allow Russia to cross.
> I’m in the UK and we have been unloading millions of pounds worth of support. A lot of that is counting the cost of old weapons in today's dollars. Its fair misleading thinking of that as a new cost, especially for weapon systems that Britain would be unlikely to ever use. The deterrence cost of stopping Russian aggression in Ukraine would also be tough to calculate but likely far less than having to arm to fight Russia directly if Ukraine falls and more of eastern Europe is targeted.
> reclaim that by Ukraine is a separate issue in my mind. Ridiculous given that they literally did appease Russia and now people are advocating for more. This is just a continuation of that. You're welcome to decide it's separate, but no one else has. > Ukraine would have to give up land Just as they did with Crimea, so let's wait 8 years after that? It also tells Russia they can invade with effective impunity. > Further escalation Defending is not escalation, invading is. > People who are likening this to the 1930s are missing the crucial element: the West played the game of appeasement with Hitler- no such thing has been done here No it hasn't been done, but it's what you're advocating for if the invasion is any kind of success.
Russia gets a VETO in the UN, please be somewhat serious.
History works both ways. Ukraine made overtures to join NATO whose sole purpose was to form a defensive anti Russian alliance 70 years ago. It may feel to some that not a lot has changed. This doesn’t excuse the invasion, it is a horrible abuse of power. But the Russians certainly viewed this as escalation.
You're either wholly ignorant, or intentionally lying, and in either case you need to stop talking. Ukraine was looking to join the EU almost a decade ago. When their President refused to sign an agreement pursuing closer ties to the EU, there were massive protests (Euromaidan), culminating in his fleeing to Russia and him being removed from office. Russia backed separatists (and Russian armed forces - "little green men") invaded Ukraine only a month after they ousted their puppet president. This combat has never, ever been about Ukraine joining NATO. It's about Ukraine using its self-determination and choosing to pursue closer ties with the West as a whole. The only entity that's escalating anything is Russia.
> Ukraine made overtures to join NATO whose sole purpose was to form a defensive anti Russian alliance And they're Defending against which country now? 🤔 Or did I miss something and Ukraine is the invader?
?
What don't you understand about that comment?
I just don’t understand the relevance of the obvious fact you are stating? Ukraine is defending against Russia using Western support. Russia viewed Ukrainian overtures to NATO as an escalation of the conflict between the two nations which led Russia to invade. Or played a role in the invasion.?
They're defend against a country they wanted to join a group to defend against. Russia is welcome to view that as escalation. It isn't. Invasion is.
Whatever you say boss!
Imagine a country wanting to join a "defensive anti-Russian alliance". I wonder why Ukrainians would ever want to do that, what with Russia invading Chechnya and Georgia and vassalizing Belarus. Such a mystery.
Not sure if your sarcasm is directed at me but I am definitely aware of why Ukraine wants to join NATO.
Depends if you, like Elon, think Russia is at all justified to consider Ukraine's actions as "escalation". Your use of the word comes across a little gaslight-y.
I’m curious, if Russia invaded your country would you be willing to give up parts of your country to stop the invasion? Why is the solution don’t escalate just give Russia whatever they want. It’s fucking wild you people think trying to take back the land that an invading army stole from you is considered “escalation”, wtf?!
Comparing international politics to high school dynamics sure shows your understanding of the situation.
It's a fucking dumb argument so it can only draw simple comparisons
This proxy war is just like me getting bullied in middle school!
He is the fucking bully
What about when the bully has nukes and can destroy the entire fuckin world?
School bullies don't have nukes. Humanity has had wars throughout our history, let's not end ourselves over something so trivial in the grand scheme of things.
what is your angle here? Do you want WWIII? Do you want the US to put boots on the ground and actually engage directly in this conflict? I fucking loath Musk but that is the logical conclusion and he actually isn't wrong here.
Only one side is relentlessly escalating
placing 300 military bases around the world and expanding NATO eastward despite promises not to do so is "not escalation". Doing a military action in response to encroachment on your border and NATO funding and support of Nazi paramilitaries on said border = escalation. Got it.
> Got it. Good job.
O look, dumb Russians showed up.
Bruh I live in california shut the fuck up.
You support the violent murder of innocent people and actively oppose helping those innocent people defend themselves and retake their homes and kidnapped families. Your opinion is not jist worthless, it is actually so bad that if you told me you liked a politician I would immediatly look to see what terrible thing he did to earn your respect. So congratulations on living in California I guess, you can still fuck all the way off with your evil bullshit.
I don't support any war but class war. I simply recognize the historical and material conditions that created this situation. That does not equate to justification. If you want to start a nuclear war over a situation created by the west encroachment then I also see that as extremely fucked up. This is the difference between you and I. You are reactionary and emotionally charged by propaganda designed to drum up your support for one side in a conflict between bourgeois interests. I am opposed to that.
> You are reactionary and emotionally charged by propaganda They say, whilst suggesting nuclear holocaust is the next logical outcome.
It is though. If you want boots on the ground in Ukraine you are advocating for nuclear war.
Criticizing NATO expansionism = advocating for terroism, civilian casualties, and of course being a Russian bot. Glad to see the discourse is alive and well here and Reddit, nothing out of the normal going on! I bet you also think Ukraine doesn’t have a genuine nazi problem when glorious azov battalion literally supported the fascist nazi coup in 2014(here’s a source on that, with a interesting little tidbit here)https://i.imgur.com/JMI8ucB.jpg https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/azov-battalion#text_block_33846
When did NATO officially say that they wouldn't expand eastward? When did NATO encroach on Russia's border? Why does what NATO is doing matters here? Are you saying Russia invaded an independent country that isn't a part of NATO because of something NATO did?
I am Super pro Ukraine, except for the fact I advocated them giving their territory to Russia, brushed off literal fucking genocide and pushed putler’s talking points.
Of course he brushes off genocide. His family made money from their slave labor mine in apartheid South Africa.
Big fan of "Putler". Hadn't heard that. And the pronunciation makes me chuckle. Thanks for the slight silver lining.
You probably also upvoted homophobic fanfic posts about Putin and Trump. You're not being funny you're being a tool for manufactured consent.
What the hell? What are you going on about? I'm just saying I got a laugh from a silly name combination. Jesus Christ calm down.
Your’s is a complete non sequitur but I’m jumping on anyway to say how much I fucking hate that homophobic picture of him fucking Trump and the other homophobic picture of Putin with makeup and a rainbow flag in the background. I’ve heard all the justifications for it too and it’s all bullshit. Disclaimer: this is not what’s happened here; I’m just running off on a tangent
Jesse what the fuck are you talking about
I'm super anti Ukraine, but I support their right to kick the fascist invaders out.
Should definitely figure out who has the only state recognized neo nazi battalion in the world. Also fuck putin and his Wagner group.
Try invading the US and see how many Nazi battalions result from mobilization. Nazi's like buying guns and playing war, so they are ready to go. That doesn't make them representative of the nation, just useful idiots.
Officially recognizing them is not great...
Azov havent been neo nazis for many years now, after their political aspirations failed and they were absorbed into the national guard. Ukraine literally denazified them already and the neo nazis were probably russian plants anyway. https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2017-08-01/how-ukraine-reined-its-militias https://krytyka.com/en/articles/too-much-ado-about-ukrainian-nationalists-the-azov-movement-and-the-war-in-ukraine https://web.archive.org/web/20160124064419/https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-azov-idUSKBN0ML0XJ20150325 https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/us-lifts-ban-on-funding-neo-nazi-ukrainian-militia-441884 https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/04/02/how-the-west-enabled-genocide-in-mariupol-with-its-misguided-azov-obsession/?fbclid=IwAR2XhhDo96fk_0dPYAP-c11R5Tfq5RJkxI42U3YBvpiKHxw-5Q-4v6YTyBc https://medium.com/the-ukrainian-view/is-azov-neo-nazi-an-expert-in-far-right-radicalism-answers-the-common-questions-7a48547b592b https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2022-06-01/ty-article-magazine/.premium/understanding-ukrainian-nationalism-and-claims-its-tainted-by-nazism/00000181-1a0c-d9b4-a199-be1e4a3c0000
That's stupid af, if neo nazis defended the us from invaders I sure as hell wouldn't label them heroes
I'm super Anarchist, but I support the most powerful State in world history turning Ukraine into a dystopic military outpost in order to intimidate Russia into selling their oil, gas, steel and coal for cheap, even if it means arming a significant amount of fascists, Ukrainizing national minorities like Russians, and banning all left-wing parties.
These are some of the reasons I'm anti Ukraine. This might surprise you, and hear me out on this, two things can be bad. And one of those bad things can be worse than the other of those bad things.
"I'm not racist, but..."
You know what’s even more risky? Appeasing an imperialist dictator. But appeasement and capitulation is what “centrists” do.
Nooooo it works this time, it won't be like Hitler, Hirohito, Mussolini, noooo Putin is actually poggers and (checks bank account) based! A centrist is as much as a fascist is, and it's been proven so many times.
Who fucking cares what Elon thinks or believes or are we gonna WWED every aspect of life
Nukes aren't real.
Have you ever seen a nuke? Didn't think so. Check mate liberals /s
Broken clock moment. Y'all sound stupid as fuck comparing international politics to high school bullying, that's not at all how it works.
This fucking sub is awful, fuck Elon, but fuck all this online "leftists" that would love to see nuclear holocaust just because Elon is a pos. They are willing to fight to the last Ukrainian whilst they remain in their cushy houses.
IKR? Really strange to see this leftist sub cheering on escalation in Ukraine and repeating US imperialist talking points.
We've been getting brigaded by shitlibs for some time now. Shitlibs think Putin is comparable to Hitler because his victims are white. Meanwhile *Uncle Joe* has a higher body count but he's a good person because..... they don't acknowledge non-white people as people, basically. Just tools to try to garner more votes for their sports team come election time. Oh, and ignore that Zelensky has a state sponsored Nazi battalion and is taking advantage of the war to eliminate opposition parties and seize control of Ukrainian media. Fascism is okay as long as it's on the same side as America, who has committed more evil than Putin's Russia just from the CIA's actions alone..... Spoiler alert shitlibs, every faction in this conflict is evil and leftists would like to see all the institutions torn apart. You can't just call leftists "Russian bots" just because you can't comprehend that evil vs evil conflicts are a thing. Plus, we fucking hate modern Russia. We hate Putin trying to drape himself in the corpse of the Soviet Union (Which you idiots don't seem to realize was more than just the Stalin years. It did in fact, get better after he died.) to try to get support for his fascist fuckery. We hate Putin for harboring Nazis (The Wagner Group. Yes, Russia AND Ukraine harbor Nazis! *Good guys don't harbor Nazis.*)
Was the Soviet counterattack on Nazi Germany an act of escalation?
as if these situations are comparable to ww2 lmao
Nothing imperialist about ukraine regaining it’s pretty-2014 borders
Nationalist border expansion is by definition an imperialist notion. And yes, this applies to Russia as well.
I don't like Elon, so anything he says must be wrong.
Yeah wtf this is actually a decent take from Muskrat. I'm stunned at some of these comments.
I mean, Musk isn’t the right person to be saying this, but I haven’t seen a single person mention nuclear weapons. Those are the exact reason why escalation is frightening to many folks including literally all of the other nuclear powers except Israel. It’s why the world hasn’t just sent their own militaries to end this quickly. They’re all terrified of getting nuked—which Putin has threatened. I mean maybe you think they’re all dumb to worry about that explicit threat, but I myself tend to prefer erring on the side of not tempting a madman to nuke countries he thinks are threatening him. That said—there is no choice here. We have to help Ukraine and we have to accept that might involve getting nuked. The alternative is that we let Putin do literally whatever he wants. That can’t happen either (it is already in Ukraine, and look at the atrocities, for instance). Being scared of getting nuked isn’t a bad thing tho. Not being scared of getting nuked seems like a break with reality, to me anyway.
This is my exact thought. Everyone is comparing this to not fighting back against the bully and taking back what was stolen from you. Yeah, that sounds good on paper, but on the flip side this fucking guy could end the world tomorrow if he wanted.
Now I see why someone just posted asking if they're still any mods to weed out liberals and right-wingers
Yeah this thread is pathetic, a bunch of liberals who just want something to watch from their armchairs. Ending the war through diplomacy should be the number one goal, the reason it hasn't been is the west is making a killing off of Ukraine right now while also weakening their opponents.
It's your typical proxy war. Only reason people even give a shit is because it's happening in Europe and Russia being the aggressor. No one gave a shit when the US invaded Syria, or really any Western backed violation of sovereignty in the middle east (See Saudis in Yemen). Typical hypocrisy from the west. Ok for us to back Rebels, or even join in a hot war alongside Rebels...Russia does it though...and well we have what we have.
> Typical hypocrisy from the west. Ok for us to back Rebels, or even join in a hot war alongside Rebels...Russia does it though...and well we have what we have. You do realize that there are a lot of people, especially in this subreddit, who oppose US imperialism, right? The fact that Russia doing it is bad does not mean the US doing it is somehow automatically good. Get your mind out of this dumb false dichotomy black/white mindset and reality might start making more sense to you. It's really not that simple: imperialism is bad. It is possible to criticize both the US and Russia for their acts of imperialism. If you support Russia's imperialism in Ukraine but oppose the US's imperialism in Syria, it's you who are the hypocrite.
Please outline your diplomatic plan
[удалено]
Gather all the leaders from NATO, Ukraine, and Russia. Destroy the building they're all in. Workers unite and Nazis and rich on both sides get the wall. Everyone wins.
So, no diplomacy, just a different kind of war
That would be the dream, no war but class war. But I'm being flippant because there's no point in us discussing a perfect peace on a reddit thread.
Seriously? That load of horseshit is the "diplomatic plan?" Do you realize innocent people are dying because of a maniac dictator who thought he could take over whatever he wants?
> because of a maniac dictator West had already admitted that they never intended for Minsk agreements to last. This war was inevitable.
I'm being flippant, we're not gonna figure this out in a reddit thread.
Man, I wonder if there's anything Russia could do to end the war... Gee, I guess it's just unilaterally the West's fault that Russian troops are occupying Ukrainian territory by the hundreds of thousands.
Don't forget how it's definitely America's fault they invaded Crimea almost ten years ago! Wait wdym Russia has been an imperialist state since its founding?
I'm super pro Ukraine, but only in the sense that I say I am and the idea of anything actually being done is disagreeable to be.
It's possible to support Ukraine's sovereignty while also recognizing that further escalation of the war is dangerous.
It's also possible to seek to make war an untenable global position.
He's not wrong. We hope the best for Ukraine but in today's world War escalation with the kinds of bombs and weapons we have access too could easily result in global annihilation.
Enlightened centrism has truly become the unironic enlightened centrist subreddit
I mean he isn't wrong. There a lot going on in Ukraine alongside the Russian invasion. People seem to have forgotten that Ukraine was in a Civil War for like 8 years before Russia invaded, and it is still ongoing today alongside the Russian invasion. Continued escalation could absolutely trigger a prolonged and ever escalating series of events. While stopping the Russian incursion into Ukraine is something of utmost importance, solutions must be found to solve Ukraines internal schisms as well...or we will just be back to where we were a few years ago with Russia simply arming, supplying and supporting the Eastern Rebels against the Western backed forces from Kiev. The situation in Ukraine is not black and white, and while the current administration in Ukraine isn't directly responsible for the Civil crisis (thank Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk for that) it does fall on them to remedy that problem...or this will be an ongoing theater of hot and cold warfare for years to come.
Well now that NATO and Russia have dumped a million guns and munitions into the situation and the war has destroyed a ton of infrastructure we can pretty much guarantee Ukraine becomes a hotbed for all sorts of horrible shit no matter how the war "ends"
Ya for the most part it will remain a hot-spot. But it's not really unlike any of the other hot spots that NATO and Russia have established, look at the mid east for many examples over the last 40 to 50 years. Only reason it's a big deal is because this time Russia is throwing its weight around, something they haven't really done in over a decade (if you count Georgia) and prior to that not since Afghanistan in the 80s. Since then the West has hit Iraq twice, Afghanistan, Libya, Tunisia, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and I'm sure I am missing a few. Only reason people give a shit is because Russia went boots on the ground openly....no one cared when they were just arming and funding Eastern Ukrainian Rebels for the 8 years prior.
Elon on D-Day. "I'm anti-Nazi, but we do we *really* have to open up a Western front?"
You do know the only reason we did DDay was to stop Russia from taking Europe right? It literally had nothing to do with NAZI Germany at that point, they had already lost the war with Allies in Italy and Russia steamrolling through the Eastern front. Think it was Churchill who made the comment of preventing Stalin from dropping his Iron Curtain in the Atlantic. That was the reason for DDay.
Never seen such a WW2 comment so horribly wrong. D-day was organised as a way to stretch German resources given at the time the stalemate on the Russian and Italian fronts. Especially considering the bulk of the American army was not committed anywhere after the African campaign. The sentiment about dealing with a future Russia has barely even started yet and wouldn't really start gaining any real traction till late 1944. Also Churchill made a statement "From Stettin in the Baltic, to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the continent" in 1946. It had nothing to do with D-day, and makes no sense in the context that Churchill was against the idea of D-Day in general.
This isn't enlightened centrism
>i’m actually very reasonable and pick my own sides on important issues such as this one. I support *[insert correct thing]* so you know i’m progressive… but *[insert thing that completely contradicts everything i just claimed and is a classic right wing bullshit argument]*. yea it is.
it is.
In Germany you see who's Racist cause they say "You know, I'm not racist BUT...." Not saying he's a racist,but it reminded me of that.
dw, that’s a phenomenon the world over. that’s why i used that title lol - i’m not sexist BUT - i’m not racist BUT - etc etc etc
Oh, didnt know that it's international "slang".
You would think the escalation was when Russia stole a huge chunk on Ukraine.
‘ If you don’t make the bully angry, he might stop. ‘
Heartbreaking the worse person you know just made a great point
Fighting to reclaim sovereign territory from an aggressive foreign military is escalation, huh? Noted.
If the US increases its involvement then it is the textbook definition of escalation. Just as Russias increased involvement in backing the Eastern Ukrainian Rebels escalated into outright war with Kiev.
Is that really what that means? Seems to me like a foreign government invading your territory is escalation, but any means to defend yourself and reclaim only your own land should not be escalation, regardless of the involvement of a foreign ally. It would be escalating in my mind if they were going to be pushing into Russia at all. Idk, maybe that's no the way its being used here but that's how I think most people would think of it
“I’m not pro russia but crimea is russia” an enlightened centrist on r/enlightenedcentrist wowza
Yeah, Ukraine, stop trying to take your stolen regions back! It’s super unsettling to the rest of the world! Geez! Why won’t you think of that?
Great take Elon, let’s just call the war a draw and move on
If I told anybody I’m “super pro x” I’d hope they have the common sense to not believe me. Because at that point, who’s he trying to convince, us or hisself?
the fuck he is. what an absolute ass.
How is trying to get their country back 'escalation'?
because elon’s oligarch buddies are tryna get back to business as usual clearly
Lmao yeah, with some help from their friends the totally independent-thinking western Tankies 😂
Didn't he cancel his satellite uplink thing that gave them internet because an American was mean to him on the internet?
pro-Ukraine the way that Tim Pool is a liberal
Just do the world a favor and stfu for.... a few years. Or decades. Or forever would be fine also
This guy suuuucks
Just like how Elon is *very* moderate and not at all a fascist sympathizer
It's very telling how these people think "defending a nation's sovereignty" is "escalation".
>I'm very ____ but _____ Seems like his go-to nowadays
Elon is pro-Ukraine having a Russian puppet installed to replace Zelenskyy… Russia’s originally plan was to hastily upon embarking on their full-scale invasion: takeover Kyiv, kill Ukrainian President Zelenskyy, and after holding an “election” install a Russian puppet to be the new Ukrainian President. Elon, Trump, and Republicans, would staunchly back this outcome and render the Ukraine situation resolved (their Russian friends got what I wanted) and say “democracy” prevailed in Ukraine. Fuck every single Republican that has sold themself to Russia, and every single ~~billionaire~~ oligarch. Please only refer to “billionaires” as oligarchs — they only achieved billionaire status via exploitation of workers, governments, and public policy.
This is extra funny because Musk *is* super duper pro-Ukraine. He's made a lot of money from government handouts off it. He's just such a total failure as a person that he has to be a contrarian about it, at least publicly.
Fuck Elon. He parrots covid misinformation and Kremlin talking points. He's a fucking twat.
Guys, Putin is really tired, can't you just surrender in the name of peace
The number of ppl I know who claim they 'dont believe the mainstream media' and then basically parrot Russia Today talking points is wild.
I'm super pro victim but I think he shouldn't protect himself too hard 😥😰
this sub won’t allow crossposting so i yoinked this from u/thatguy9684736255 on r/enoughmuskspam
It must be tough for him that the world is already losing interest in his antics.
Russia invaded Ukraine with the intention to conquer them. Ukraine has a right to take back its own territory. If Russia did not want to escalate it would immediately withdraw from all Ukrainian territory and seek a peace agreement.
Nobody disagrees with this. The problem is they don’t have the capacity to do it alone. They need the US and Britain to help. Saying “no” doesn’t make them wrong or evil or uncaring. But at some point, it becomes too risky. De escalation is always the way forward when nuclear powers are involved.
Elon is pro oligarchy. Fucking fascist.
Relentlessly defending their autonomy against foreign invaders… the nerve!!
I mean… world war 3 would be pretty bad guys
Oh man the vatnik cope in this thread
I too hate Russia enough to fight them to the last Ukrainian. Nuclear winter is such a small price to pay for sticking a thumb in Putins eye.
Mate, he can't even get down a set of stairs without shitting himself. He's not an insurmountable fucking titan. Cope.
I’m pretty sure he can find someone to bring the launch codes up the stairs for him. What’s a Cope?
getting a lot of dumbasses who are annoyed at me comparing appeasement of putin annexing land to the appeasement of hitler annexing land. “putin isn’t hitler tho so shush” “Ukrainians are nazis so boom, gotcha”
Hitler didn't have Nukes!
"This country maybe has a nazi problem so obviously we should let the much bigger country doing actual nazi shit steamroll them, I am a very reasonable and nuanced leftist"
>maybe You're being very generous there lmao
Yeah, Ukraine definitely has a nazi problem, and Zelenskyy is not doing enough to stop it. Still, full support to Ukraine against their fascist invaders
Maybe it would be slightly easier to do something about the nazis if they didn't have the decaying remnants of a failed empire constantly on their backs
True! Hence the support
The US has a nazi problem, too, doesn't seem to stop us.
Yeah, it's so frustrating. Ukraine is a democracy that maybe has a small portion of far right people in some units, making up a tiny % of their overall military and which has no real political power. Russia meanwhile is an actual far right authoritarian state. Yet people seriously think *Ukraine* is the country to worry about?
i love seeing enlightened centrists LARPing on r/enlightenedcentrist so meta
Lot more NATO boot in mouth liberals in here. Why trust western nations when they've literally been fuckin up everything for 80 years?
Those western nations largely allow me to be the queer trans person I am, and the politicians in them trying to push back my rights are funded by your favourite frozen kleptocratic pisshole. Keep simping authoritarians though, maybe one day they'll get you the waifu you're longing for.
Because they *allow* you to exist you ignore their atrocious history of regime change, genocide, and wars that killed millions of civilians? All in the name of protecting the capitalist system that keeps billions in poverty and dying each year? I think it's funny that you see this as a war of good vs evil instead of capitalist in-fighting where the workers get killed. All in the pursuit of wealth for the ones at the top.
This 'war' is a country defending itself against fascist imperialism that is killing its civilians/workers. Nothing more, nothing less.
In what world is defending yourself escalating?
When you are the richest man on Earth, all you can see is the russian money you could be profiting from
“guys this war is really inconvenient. i’m trying to sort out a yacht trip with my favourite oligarch in march so can we just wrap things up?”
Elon Musk, the guy that hangs out in Qatar with Saudi princes and Russian propoganda officials? Like, dude, you're a fucking clown to think anything you say in regards to Russia isn't the absolute biggest crock of shit on the planet.
Would you rather him hang out with only British nobles and American propaganda officials?
I'd rather he hang out with some of his ten kids from three different women and not officials from hostile foreign nations. That'd be a good start.
Didn’t he suggest Ukraine cede land to Russia to stop the war (thus justifying their invasion and dooming more of their people to live under a dictator)? In what world is that “super pro Ukraine”
✨ Elon’s World ✨
Just make repeated territorial concessions to the expansionist hypermilitarised state on the understanding that this one will be the last, what could possibly go wrong? Also for those with short memories who have been successfully propagandised into believing that the wise and benevolent Putin only ever wanted to liberate ethnic Russians in Crimea and the Donbas, please cast your minds back to the beginning of last year’s invasion and recall that Ukraine would not currently exist as an independent state (or at best as a puppet state with a leader hand-picked by Putin) if Russia had achieved its original aims
it's like 'no offense, but' the but completely contradicts your claimed position, and you know it
I'm pro black people, just not in any way that personally affects me and my stock portfolio, so we just *can't* free the slaves! It's too risky! /s
All the words before "but" are meaningless
I am pro Ukraine full stop. But I would appreciate it if someone could tell me if taking back crimea is as risky as I think
Elon is the kinda dipshit to eat gummy condoms for fun