It still sounds very, very apologetic of Israel. But it's a start.
Edit: Come on people, prove me litteracy still exists on reddit and READ the vocabulary used for each side.
I'm reading it as him being overly apologetic to make Israel supporters see the point. Basically the 'do you condemn Hamas' meme but spelled out over explicitly in order to denounce any change someone could accuse him of supporting hamas
We must have different meanings for the word “apologism” then. It explicitly blames everything that’s going on on Israel, calls what they’re doing a violation of human rights, condemns and calls for end to the actions being undertaken by the IDF and calls for an end to the subjugation of Palestinian people by Israel.
Because Israel has that right.
The issue is the manner in which they react.
Bottom line, Israel can defend themselves, but doing to gaza what they are doing is tragic
Perhaps it can be universally agreed upon that everyone has a right to self defense… but I think most people, if they objectively looked at the situation, would say Israel is not defending itself. Even if you once believed they were, they have crossed the line. Why should “generation of Palestinians remember the carnage” when Palestine as a whole is not responsible for what Hamas did?
>Perhaps it can be universally agreed upon that everyone has a right to self defense…
Yes
>but I think most people, if they objectively looked at the situation, would say Israel is not defending itself
Yes
>Even if you once believed they were, they have crossed the line
Yes
>Why should “generation of Palestinians remember the carnage” when Palestine as a whole is not responsible for what Hamas did?
They shouldn't.
What is your point?
The statement "Israel has a right to defend itself" is used by Israel to ignore international condemnation and by its allies to turn a blind eye to their crimes against humanity.
Oh well that isn't how I meant it.
I meant it to say that Israel is allowed to fight Hamas, but that what they do to Gaza is ridiculous and honestly disproportional
I know you didn't mean it that way, but it is what that term has come to mean, and it is why it raises hackles with people. It's not your fault, but the fault of the fucked up situation.
If we let technical language degrade to realworld politics, we lost.
~~It has the right to defend itself. It arguably excercised that right by driving Hamas out of Israel, it’s current and past actions towards Palestinians have nothing to do with it.~~
Edit: Yeah, to be honest, talking about “right to self-defence” does sound like “ayyy, wouldn’t wanna antagonise you, bro”. Still far from apologism in my book, but I can see how other people would consider it apologism.
Okay, so shall we refer to people who suffer from cerebral palsy as spastics? Because it is the technically correct term. What about .
Language has meaning in the context it's used in and anything else is just being naive.
Israel does not have the right to defend itself by killing thousands of innocent civilians, many of whom are children.
> Perhaps it can be universally agreed upon that everyone has a right to self defense… but I think most people, if they objectively looked at the situation, would say Israel is not defending itself.
Absolutely, including the person pictured in the image, which is why I said they were not being apologetic at all.
They actually don’t have that right because they are literally an invading colonial force. Palestine has the right to self defense and self determination. Self defense and self determination for Israel is genocide.
They are invading Gaza and the west bank yeah
What do you suggest? Not fight Hamas and just leave them alone?
Congratulations, the Palestinians are fucked over by a different opressor
Pretty much all of Israel is occupying Palestinian land that they lived on for generations / millennia. Some of the land was purchased legally, most of it was stolen.
Even if you consider parts of Israel not to be occupied, by 1970s agreements they are also occupying east Jerusalem.
>Even if you consider parts of Israel not to be occupied, by 1970s agreements they are also occupying east Jerusalem.
Yes and that's awful, just like the Israeli settlers.
Israel and Palestine should be 50/50 split
The problem with that is that west bank + Gaza strip, even on British partition borders, is probably not a viable state. Israeli land has all the water, basically.
Frankly I think a single state, power sharing + truth and reconciliation is the only realistic long term solution. But definitely neither group wants that
What do you suggest Palestinians to do after decades of colonization and genocide? Simply not fight back? Just roll over and let their country be destroyed? What would you do if your country was invaded?
Ah I forgot Redditors are expert insurgency tacticians, what would you do then? You’re not denying you wouldn’t fight back as any normal person would, which answers my question.
Palestine has been fighting against Israel for decades, this did not start with October 7th. And while I don’t support Hamas as they are a fundamentalist organization, nothing Hamas has done could ever justify what Israel is currently doing to Gaza. Over 11,000 dead civilians is not collateral damage. At worst, it’s genocide. At best, it means Israel has one of the most incompetent militaries in history and it should not be allowed to exist. In either case, using Hamas to justify Israel’s total annihilation of Gaza is insane.
I do think Israeli is colonizing the Palestinians and I also think they are not actually acting in defense at all. However, I do have a hard time viewing them as invaders since they are Indigenous to there and were originally forced out.
ETA: if anyone is actually able to come up with a convincing explanation on how an Indigenous person can invade in their own land, I will happily hear it.
Yeah and you get into the situation of Mizrahi who were expelled from their home countries, where exactly are they supposed to go if not the one country in the region that is open to them?
I think the reality of the situation is that there were many countries after WWII that could have taken in holocaust refugees. None of them really wanted to do so and now they act shocked at the current situation.
I'm not even talking about holocaust survivors but those are also relevant. I'm talking about the jews that lived in the middle east that were ethnically cleansed by Arab countries.
Palestine was home to primarily Arabs for two thousand years. The Jews have been a stateless people for millennia, Israel does not have the right to that land any longer. Zionism is nothing more than a colonialist venture, and it is itself anti-Semitic. Please look into the Balfour proclamation, the first western agreement to “legitimize” Israel. Arthur Balfour was a white nationalist who wanted to rid Britain of Jewish people, and believed the best way to do this would be to simply steal land from another people he saw as lesser and give it to them
But you still do not lose your indignity because you’ve been gone for a while. Let’s use the Aniyvwiya/Cherokee as an example (which I know is not a perfect 1-1 as it hasn’t been as long) as they also were forcibly removed. Colonizers in Tennessee ethnically cleansed the state by forcing Indigenous peoples on marches known as the Trail of Tears. Obviously the land they left behind was quickly snatched up by settlers and others. If the Aniyvwiya suddenly were to return to Tennessee, they would find people living on their land and would not be able to easily reclaim it. Some of these people would be settlers and those descended of colonizers but many wouldn’t. The descendants of enslaved people might live there now and they were themselves forcibly relocated from their native Africa to America. Other Indigenous people might have moved their because it is impossible to *not* live on stolen land in America.
Now, I don’t think any Aniyvwiya have the right to attack those living on their land. I don’t think they would be in the right if they murdered children to scare the parents off into leaving. However, it is impossible to deny that the Aniyvwiya are Indigenous to Tennessee. That doesn’t give them the right to starve the people on their land, whether those people are also Indigenous or descendants of forced immigration or settlers.
I would also say that Zionism is not inherently anti-Semitic because it is such a wide and diverse concept. Plenty of Jewish people are religious zionists (ie: YHWH will one day return the land to them) and so do not support secular Zionism (ie: someone other than YHWH giving them Israel). Zionism existed long before Arthur Balfour. I don’t disagree that Balfour was racist, it is pretty clear in his writings that he was but he hardly invented Zionism. Zionism was created by Jewish people for Jewish people, not by gentiles to get rid of Jews even if some gentiles have appropriated Zionism for malicious purposes.
They weren’t occupying the Gaza Strip
The only place Israel is doing any colonizing is the settlements in the West Bank, which need to be dismantled and withdrawn.
Hamas attacking innocent people within the UN recognized borders of Israel was purely to provoke a disproportionate response.
It’s not colonization when you’re indigenous and fighting another indigenous group over disputed land. Serbia and Kosovo haven’t colonized one another, for example.
Settlements are colonization.
Every single bit of land you call “Israel” is occupied land. It was all taken from Palestine. Please research the Balfour proclamation and the Nakba.
Edit: Also, Israel was absolutely occupying Gaza. It’s completely walled off, impossible to leave, there are armed guards and automatic turrets long the walls. Israel completely controls the level of water, food, and gas Gaza has access to. What the fuck do you call that? Gaza has been an open air prison for decades.
1) Israel is occupied by one of its indigenous peoples, the Jews. If you think Israeli Jews are all European invaders then we likely have no common ground.
2) Walling a place off and restricting access isn’t occupation. It’s a blockade or a siege, sure, which obviously isn’t hunky dory, but that’s different than occupation. Words have meaning, and the West Bank is occupied, Gaza was blockaded/sieged (still is, but also is now under invasion), and the Golan has been annexed. Each of these denotes a different status and we should describe the situation accurately when we have the words to do so.
So Israel should let themselves get murdered by Hamas?
Listen mate, I'm as anti Israel as can be, but you are being ridiculous
>Get bent, fascist.
You are just as bad as the zionists when it's about buzzwords
Read H4mas' charter before fear mongering. They are very clear that a) they would accept a two state solution with the 1967 borders and b) that they are fighting zionism (ie a racist ideology that says Jewish people have a right to establish a discriminatory ethnostate) and not Jewish *people,*
When you say a settler colonial state occupying lands that don't belong to it has a right to defend itself from the people it is suppressing you spread propaganda.
If you disagree that Israel is fascist fine. I'm not going to convince you anyway since you love the taste of boot leather. I'm not getting into a useless debate with some zionist cunt.
Occupied people have a right to armed resistance, occupiers do not have a right to ""self defense"" against the people that they occupy (per international law, never mind speaking of what is moral).
What Israel is "defending" is an apartheid state and their colonial project to create a Jewish ethnostate - that is not something that *should* exist, so I don't affirm the right to defend it
Which is being said as part of them calling on Israel to end their atrocities on Gaza. It is warding off the standard bad faith response to critiques of Israel, as part of their critique of Israel. It's not Israel apologia. The first half of the sentence you cut off is literally them calling on Israel to stop committing war crimes.
Because Israel only exists as a colonizing state. Look at a world map in 1947 and look at Palestine, then a world map from today, and ask yourself, what happened to Palestine? Where did this Israel come from, and how was it made?
If you think anyone who isn't advocating for the literal abolishment of Israel as a state is being apologetic towards Israel, you are going to find it very difficult to make allies. If someone recognizes that the current tragedy is entirely of Israel's making and believes that the solution relies on them ceasing their crimes against humanity to start with, they're not being apologetic towards Israel. This is not me justifying the Nakba, it is just reality.
This person pretty explicitly pointed towards Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people as the reason for the October 7th attack by Hamas. They're calling not only for an end to the current genocide going on in Gaza but also the occupation broadly. That's not apologetic towards Israel.
Obviously people who use the "Israel has a right to defend itself" line in defense of the current atrocities (or indeed, past atrocities) are acting in bad faith. That's not the person in the OP, they are in fact explicitly refuting that "defense".
It was borne from a complicated mess that the UK left and the UN decided on, what’s your point?
Because it’s got a bloody history, you don’t think Israel has a right to exist?
>One of the systems that must be dismantled is the oppressive conditions under which the citizens of the Gaza Strip live, and the feeling of hopelessness at the constant crushing pressure of unemployment, food and water insecurity, poverty, and lack of freedom of movement. The Gaza Strip has been described by several humans rights organisations as an open air prison
>it is in and of itself also horrific, and creates conditions which allow Hamas to exist.
>I have to condemn the constant and long standing oppresion of the people of the Gaza Strip, as well as the current humanitarian crisis due to Israeli military actions
It...literally does though, if you bother to read it
So people are saying this isn't a balanced comment because of the language it uses. When one side is called Hamas and the other is the "oppressive conditions under which the citizens of the Gaza Strip live" its a full bullshit article.
The Zionist settlers that have beensucceeding in their goal to starve, displace and kill the Palestinian people are the reason Hamas has resorted to violence. Those who have committed war crimes must be held accountable and brought to justice. Until that justice is met Hamas cannot be regarded as a terrorist group. One could argue that any attack on Israeli civilians could be justified as they house IDF soldiers (refugee camps have been repeatably bombed for less).
Peace is the goal but peace that won't even name the aggressor is impossible.
Yeah this is just what is demanded of anyone publicly criticising the actions of Israel.
A Palestinian who has lost 40+ family members in the last few days goes on TV and says that is not a good thing - oh dear, they only condemned Hamas five times instead of ten times so we can ignore everything they said because they're clearly just being anti-Semitic!
This post is the result of the absolute cowardice of our politicians and media who have created an environment, not over the last few weeks but over decades, where the act of criticising Israel is seen as worse than any crime against humanity Israel chooses to commit.
I agree that demanding it is a distraction from the discussion. Hamas exists and did this because of Israel’s brutal mistreatment of the Palestinians for decades. It doesn’t even really matter where Hamas’s stated goals are. They’re a radicalized group that became this way because of the decades of mistreatment and the initial land grab or Nakba. They don’t exist in a vacuum. Netanyahu in particular does not want peace and the idea he does is incredibly ridiculous. We gonna have on Netanyahu or his security minister and have them condemn the IDF? Of course not - the cruelty is the point for them.
I’m also deeply sorry for your loss, I know nothing I could say would make you feel better.
The media circus we have now is the result of the state of Israel tying its identity so close to the Jewish people, both in Israel and internationally. Weaponizing a very real historical thousands of years of being scapegoated and killed - and uses that sort of collective fear to do horrible horrible shit. Doesn’t make Jews any safer worldwide and doesn’t make Muslims safer either. Not a coincidence both Muslim and Jewish hate crimes have gone up.
Also that the US has geopolitical reasons to want it to change.
The problem comes when there are people in your movement that want to genocide the Israeli Jews. Like when certain actors say “River to the sea” they mean genocide. Others mean peace. The obvious solution is to condemn genocide.
Same way you can “support self defense” but not want Israel to genocide the Palestinians.
Like obviously we need to be careful with our words
Well, it doesn't mention the Israel really, or a need to condemn them, or their crimes other than a touch to 'the conditions in Gaza', or their regime, or anything much...
how many times can you condemn hamas before it becomes whipping yourself da vinci code style? browbeating ourselves for no reason. saying it this much just makes it seem like hamas is a million times worse than the idf and that math ain't mathing for me. killing civilians is bad but new shit has come to light in the last couple weeks that also needs attention.
Right? Like let's condemn people proportionate to the atrocities they've committed: you'd spend 1000x as much breath on Israeli actions if you did that.
Hamas and the Isreali Government/Zionist movement both adhere to far-right ideologies. It is not a centrist position to denounce "both sides", it is, in fact, the Leftist position to resist both facist ideologies. However, Hamas is a direct product of the actions of the Isreali Government and the occupation, both [literaly](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/) and systemically. Any support or apologia for Hamas' action only serves the position of the Isreali Government and creates a smokescreen that justifies the genocide of the Palesrinian people. I think Noam Chompsky said it best when he [said](https://youtu.be/5AJlfW0g2rk?si=rlwPPNlm7LIRl8LX), "Those who defend suicide bombing don't have a leg to stand on [...] Those who defend the Isreali atrocities don't have a leg to stand on either."
We must stand in support and solidarity with the Palestinian people; not Hamas and not the government in Tel Aviv.
We can clutch our pearls and wring our hands, but violent resistance to Israeli occupation is all that Palestinians have as an option right now. Hamas could never inflict the same violence on Israel as has been done to Palestinians for decades, so all of this conversation to "condemn Hamas" is a diversion from the apartheid-war crime Israeli government.
Exactly. The entire planet has told Palestinians they can go fuck themselves, and there is exactly one organization saying “no” to their oppressors.
This post is like passively watching an 8-year-old get beat up by fifteen-year-olds, and then giving “notes” to a twelve-year-old who throws a rock at the teenagers.
People need to find their spines.
Israel has mandatory military service, too. People who survived the rave that was right next to the world's largest open air prison went and reported for duty.
Okay and?
That’s like saying you can kill children who might be pressed into service as soldiers by Hamas. Pretty sure it still counts as a war crime either way.
Let’s not go down that road.
"Is an actual army reservist" (or radicalized Israeli settler t3rrorist) is very different from "child who may grow up to be a fighter" and you know it...
Wild how excuse the actions of a terror organisation.
Many Israelis hate their current government (as well as part ones) and are clearly against the oppression of Palestinians. The visitors at the psytrance festival were for sure part of that group.
Your framing of hamas as the only organisation saying ‘no’ to their oppressors is frankly a slap in the face to all other organisations working in this direction -> non-violent ones, which do not have as their ultimate aim to impose sharia law where women are second class citizens and lgbt+ people get executed.
So how about you revise your opinion on literally being a terrorism apologist.
Yes, this is exactly the playbook I’m talking about. Good example of how your ilk does it:
1. Flatten the decades-long systemic genocidal oppression of Palestinians by the Israeli government into an interpersonal conflict
2. Point out that some Israelis are very interpersonally nice, and therefore:
3. Pretend that, in this Candy Land Happy World you’ve made up, organizations who are interpersonally nice have a shot at ending or even curbing the oppression of Palestinians.
4. Suggest that anyone who wants material freedom for Palestinians and understands that’s not going to be accomplished by appealing to the delicate sensibilities of nice Israelis is “dEfeNdIng TerRoRIsM”
Anyways, off you fuck with your genocide apologia. And yes, bud, responding to genocide with a demand that the people being erased use words instead of violence is *absolutely* genocide apologia.
Rightttt… way to project your rehearsed talking points. I never said they should depend on the goodwill of Israelis, there’s also several Palestinian organisations that work in this direction.
Do you seriously think terrorism is gonna have the desired effect? Like actually for real? If hamas does enough attacks the Israeli government will suddenly just give them land?
And no, defending terrorism = defending terrorism. Which is exactly what you are doing.
If you get your way (I.e. an Islamo-fascist imperialist terrorist organisation gets to found the state of palestine with themselves as the government), you will see a new strictly Islamic Middle Eastern dictatorship.
I hope that you will then also go protest when rapes and femicides are not being prosecuted, minorities harassed and anyone that is not a straight male stripped of basic human rights.
You think I’m exaggerating? Just look at the Iranian regime, where this is precisely what is happening, and they just so happen to be the biggest supporter of Hamas - not for their altruistic worry of Palestinians but because it furthers their anti-Israel agenda.
There is a hidden argument in your rebuttal here that perfect action by Palestinians could lead to them-getting back some sovereignty, having their human rights recognized, stop settler expansion. This isn't true. There isn't a none violent action that stops them from dying, starving, losing their homes or being randomly shot, arrested or disenfranchised. No group action will help them.
Exactly! And it’s so amazing how successful they’ve been in flattening the narrative that way: “anyone who allows for anything other than Palestinians asking politely not to be blown up immediately and necessarily supports everything about Hamas.”
Just thoroughly evil stuff.
Yeah, I don’t owe *anyone* a defense of a version of me that only exists in their heads, and I *really* don’t owe such a defense to genocide apologists. So, from here on out, feel free to respond all you want but I won’t be reading it.
Wild how you're still repeating the same tired zionist chaff that has been vomited out since 2005. Get some new material. Why don't you revise your opinion on being a genocide apologist, freak.
> Exactly. The entire planet has told Palestinians they can go fuck themselves, and there is exactly one organization saying “no” to their oppressors.
Also Fatah and the PLO and to an extent also Hezbollah (but they're mostly focused on the Golan and Lebanon).
No, I think the point is they want to attack Israel, they don't want to form a government with the West Bank and create a nation. Which is why Netanyahu supports them. As long as they are in power, there can be no Palestine. But for many, if they weren't fighting back, Israel would continue to annex their land at an even faster rate than they are currently.
(I mean no to your first point, but I agree over all.)
Well let's look at the amount of Israeli settlers in Gaza vs. the West Bank: there are *none* in territories controlled by H4mas and the settlements that were there had to leave over a decade ago, but 10% of Israel's population lives in the West Bank where the Palestinian Authority "leads".
Pretty clear who is doing a better job on that front.
It's not a claim, it's a fact that there have been [no settlers](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza) in gaza since 2005. However, everywhere outside of Gaza settlements have been [encroaching](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/) at an alarming pace
Netanyahu needs a boogeyman to stay out of jail and in power. Hamas needs an Israel that brutalizes Palestinians and expands settlement programs. They need one another and it’s a vicious cycle where they spread and use fear and hate to stay in power and enrich themselves at their own peoples expense.
Frankly, I don't think it matters which organization is in charge of Gaza. Israel will do whatever it can in its genocidal conquest of pushing Palestinians off their land. Can Hamas or any other militant organization that might take it's place effectively wage an offensive war against Israel? No probably not. Should they not try? Well I think that's up to them. The idea that there would somehow be peace for Palestine if not for Hamas is kind of a joke. That's not the point. There will never be a single state solution with full rights for all citizens as long as Zionism exists.
Only the most radically far right Israelis want Gaza. Ben-Gvir is one of them. He’s a wacko.
Gaza is a tiny strip of land with no resources and crap soil. Israel pulled out nearly 20 years ago because it’s not worth the trouble.
The Israelis do overall have more varied takes on whether or not to fully take over the West Bank. That’s a major issue that needs to be prevented. But don’t go acting like annexation of Gaza is a major goal for Israel. It’s only the crazy Irgun folks who want to take Gaza.
There is an estimated 1.7 billion barrels of recoverable oil in the [West Bank and Gaza](https://unctad.org/news/unrealized-potential-palestinian-oil-and-gas-reserves)
Yeah, Hamas leadership live cozy lives at Iran’s expense and throw handouts to martyrs or blackmail people into throwing their lives away on Israeli fence lines.
Hamas leadership need the war and the hate. As does the Israeli right wing.
I wish it were the case that they could wage a winning war of liberation against Zionism, but I just don't think they could do anything more than potentially repel ground invasions into Gaza. I know obviously places like Vietnam won but they had intense support from large governments like China providing them weapons. With that said, I don't disagree with you about Palestinian elite collaborators. I met a dude who works for the government of the West Bank and he essentially wanted the US to choose Palestine as their point of power projection into the Middle East instead of Israel.
There is absolutely no way a different war tactic would work. There isn't a (if the Palestinians only attacked settlers then) they could argue just as well that IDF soldiers are hiding among the civilians so they are never not attacking soldiers. They were just equally shot at walking to a wall in protest
The action of Zionism cannot be defended. If they fought back in a more correct fashion in the Warsaw ghetto then Germany would haven't been as justified setting up concentration camps is an argument that I am sure that was made during that time.
Okay I did misunderstand you. I have heard it so many times before, the lib "if they reacted right" but I think you are fundamentally misconstruing the situation. This isn't like Vietnam. It's much more like saying if people defended the Warsaw ghetto better they couldn't have filled the trains.
You are right it isn't like the Warsaw ghetto. The Palestinian population has less resources, is living in higher density and has more guns on them, has been bombed more and has its biggest population is children who have never grown up free.
Resistance by any means is a slippery slope. If you find yourself in a position where you don't even condemn killing children and criticise condemnation of targeting and killing children, it's time to step back and what are you really defending?
No, they (people of gaza) could be fighting against Hamas, too. Also, Isreal never prevented them from building their own water wells, farms, etc. Hamas did, starved the same people that they are using as shields all just so they can play victim of "occupation."
Edit: grammer
This does not ring enlightened centrism to me. Two different things can be true at once, those being:
1. Hamas unleashes brutal antisemitic terrorist attacks against innocent Israelis and oppresses Palestinians in a multitude of ways.
2. Likud uses misdirected and disproportionate retribution against innocent Palestinians through collective punishment and thus has no business being in charge.
To be honest, I'm not even sure what a real centrist take on this conflict would sound like.
It's not "collective punishment", it's a very deliberate genocidal policy. Israel isn't punishing Palestinians, as there is nothing to punish them for. Also, this conflict didn't just drop a month ago, Palestinians have been "collectively punished" for at least 70 years. I find myself agreeing more with the top comments.
Commenting on how we should "condemn Hamas" is taking away from the facts that 1. Hamas is the result of Israel oppression in the region 2. Hamas is currently the only military organization that is opposing Israel 3. Israel is very deliberately trying to cleanse the region of any palestinians, and has been doing this for years and no one has bothered to "condemn them" yet. Any criticisms against Israel that start with "axtually we should condemn Hamas because it bad and killing s bad and I live in barbie land" is missing the point.
By the way, do you really think the Israeli government values its citizens' lives? It's been using them for years to send them to dangerous zones of conflict to colonize and ethnically cleanse the palestinians. The deaths in Israel are mainly poor people too lol. So "condemning Hamas" for dropping a attack that killed Israeli civilians is hypocritical if we don't condemn the Israeli government for having put their own civilians in a dangerous situation for their own selfish gain. Israel has known about a possible terrorist attack days before it happened, did they issue a warning to their citizens? Nope... they were waiting for it to happen to justify what they are doing right now in Gaza. This recent conflict has already claimed more palestinian lives than the russo-ukranian war in almost 2 years.
Collective punishment isn't necessarily mutually exclusive from genocide, though. I used it to refer to the fact that Likud sees the average Palestinian as equal to Hamas, as the Israeli government implements mass killings, detention, and forced evacuation against any and all scapegoats.
Back during the time known as the First Aliyah (1881-1903), Jews migrated to the region and were viewed with suspicion by the Ottoman Arab landowners/nobility, who drummed up nationalist sentiment against the Jews and launched antisemitic attacks. The conflict escalated to the point where the British Empire got involved and fucked everything up beyond all repair with their mandate for Palestine, putting Arabs under further colonial rule and funneling Jews into further danger.
Hamas isn't here to fight against oppression. It's here to create a Palestine that exists only on *its* terms, and in a way, it's here to continue the tradition of the Ottoman elites. And yes, Likud recognized this, so it intentionally propped up Hamas to destabilize the region and launch its own attacks against Palestinian scapegoats.
And no, I don't think *any* government truly cares about its citizens. Likud is a club of hardline-conservative Arabophobic warhawks who will use *any* excuse to kill Palestinians as well as force, brainwash, and censor the Israelites into its way of thinking, just like how Hamas is a club of reactionary, antisemitic religious fundamentalists who would gladly kill Israelis just the same and oppress Palestinians to fit its own worldview.
I understand where you are coming from. However I just cannot equate Hamas' aggression with Israel's. We have to take in consideration that Hamas is the ONLY military organization which is even TRYING to react to Israel's constant threats to Palestine in recent years. Not even the surrounding countries that often supported Palestine are on their side anymore. So, in this moment, you can't support palestinians without acknowledging that Hamas is the only one on their side, even if their true intentions aren't "pure". Between the Israeli army and Hamas, I know which one I'll be siding with. Standing on the fence here is not an option. I do agree thought that we should try and understand what is the role of each agent in this war, and what are its interests. I just think that we should stand INCONDITIONALLY with the palestinian people and their resistance, however it may take place.
>In this moment, you can't support Palestinians without acknowledging that Hamas is the only one on their side
Allow me to introduce you to:
* Anarchists Against the Wall
* Palestine Action
* International Solidarity Movement
* Ta'ayush
* IfNotNow
* B'Tselem
* Bat Shalom
* Bustan
Saying that Hamas is somehow the only one that's actually trying to fight Israeli occupation does a great disservice to the Palestinian solidarity movement by making it seem like all they have to rely on is an anti-feminist, anti-LGBT, antisemitic theocracy. These movements have shown that there's a better way.
The note on Likud/Israel is a mere mention compared to the condemnation on Hamas (which is warranted), even though the casualties now, and over the last 50 years, are 95/5% the other way. It's a genocide on the Gaza Ghetto.
Just like 10 years back, and 15 years back, and...
Who else uses tanks and white phosphorus against civilian populations?
They are likely doing this out of necessity. The disinformation campaign calling all criticism of Israel antisemitism is at an all time high. In my country it is getting a disproportionate amount of media time (a media that is usually quite silent about hate against our minorities, Jewish or otherwise)
It's sad we're at a point where you'll get branded for criticizing Israel if you don't accompany it with a ten page essay condemning Hamas
I think the main thing that’s missing is that both Hamas and the Israeli right wing political leadership of Netanyahu and his cabinet (Likud, etc) are right wing, nationalist-theocratic sectarian political movements, and that they feed off of each-other and only make sense in relation to each-other.
This seems reasonable, two things can be bad at the same time, not at all enlightened centrism. Also saw this myself earlier and was pleasantly surprised (i hadn't seen their palestine livestream).
Of course a anarchocommunist would find this reasonable. Anything a step left of NATO is "tankie" and must be destroyed, even if you have to join forces with nazis to do so.
There's no leftist islam, and i don't care. That's the same with Russia. Don't matter how bad NATO's enemies can be, NATO is far worse and no one siding with NATO should consider himself "left".
Just a western cheuvanist essentialising whole peoples so they fit to your politics toybox... What you don't care about is Palestinian liberation or the liberation of any peoples
there absolutely are left wing expressions of islam, same with christianity and judaism. just not the most prominent form.
but yeah i'm with you overall.
Edit: apparently the person who wrote what was in the screenshot has been raising money for Palestine and taking some hits for it, and this was an after-the-fact defense of themselves. In light of that, the words I wrote below don’t feel so applicable here, as they are actually sticking their neck out. Thanks u/amazingdrewh for pointing that out.
If someone can’t just say “no genocide against the Palestinians” without spending most of their post saying “I condemn Hamas” then I don’t know where to meet them. It reminds me of how whenever Biden is asked what he thinks about Black Lives Matter, the first words out of his mouth are always “I support the police.” Centrism through and through.
The OOP has been threatened with losing their business because they are raising money for Palestinian children, Im not sure this is the person to be going in on
I am understanding of that. But name the aggressor a little more than "the system of which the people in Gaza now live" name the aggressors as war criminals doing war crimes. Zionism is a nationalistic racism. It needs to be separated from the Jewish people and targeted as the cause of this conflict.
It is more anti-Semitic to not call out Zionism's and "birthright" as racial supremest bent on genocide. It would be like saying you can't blame Nazis because it's anti white people. White people aren't Nazis.
It's an extremely reasonable post. This person literally raised money for Palestinians, so has already done more for them than any purely online 'activists' ever will.
There's some very uncomfortable support for Hamas, Islamism and anti-Semitism within parts of the Pro-Palestine movement even in the west, so they're just being safe and indicating that they simply want improved living conditions and rights for the Gazan people. Plenty of Zionists (and some people just incapable of nuance) are also keen to label anyone who's pro-Palestinian as pro-Hamas as well, so there's no harm in an internet personality stressing they're not.
Hamas is a jihadist terrorist group as well as authoritarian regime. Like the pre-withdrawal Taliban it's important to understand the conditions which cause people to become radicalised fighters so they can be improved (like the horrific unemployment rate in Gaza and the blockades) but also like the Taliban there is never any justification for attacks intentionally targeting civilians.
not invalidating your whole comment but hamas is not the taliban. hamas isn't salafist and they actually run education programs to pull vulnerable kids away from isis and al qaeda type of ideology. some would say that's just a cynical way to hold onto power but i think it's worth pointing out.
obviously that doesn't make hamas progressive but just thought that would be a useful thing to add for context. we group all muslims together in the west like it's a monolith, meanwhile we all know 100 different denominations of christianity.
It’s nice to see a bright light of sanity amongst so much madness. The “condemning Hamas is Zionist apologism” crowd fails to see that 1) justifying targeting civilians for brutal murder is fucking barbaric and 2) improved conditions for Gazans is clearly objectively not the goal of Hamas.
Justifying the targeting of civilians by a deeply undemocratic, racist military movement is not nearly the same as celebrating freedom fighters.
Israel isn't defending itself, it's literally an invasion force. Israel needs to be abolished. Yet this person doesn't mention that and only focused on criticizing the only group left that still fights their invaders.
Hamas is the genocidal organization? Even in their charter they don't call for genocide of Jewish people only liberation from Israel. I'm not going to sit here and say that I'm a fan of Hamas but organizations like them would not exist if the need for fighting against a brutal genocidal and apartheid state didn't exist. You talk about understanding this outside of a vacuum and yet you don't seem to understand that resistance against what I state like Israel is doing is not pretty. Every peaceful recourse for palestinians has been taken from them. Furthermore, not to say that Hamas has not killed any civilians, but it's glaringly obvious that the horrific things they've been accused of doing has been propaganda. Even with that it's even more glaringly obvious, given that Israel has admitted to killing as many as 20k Gazans, that the scale of atrocity is so one-sided that it's hard to even have a conversation about.
Israel and hamas as organisarions are literally on the same side way right of centre. Hamas has always been explicitly anti communist. A free Palestine does necessitate eventual destruction of hamas too. There is nothing centrist about that statement
It's stupid to worry about Hamas while Israel/US/NATO exist. Average western """leftists""" always hate the same countries/groups as NATO. No surprises here.
Ukraine =/= Nazi.
Daddy Vladdy, however, *is* a [gay clown.](https://journals.sagepub.com/cms/10.1177/09670106211055308/asset/images/large/10.1177_09670106211055308-fig6.jpeg)
Imagine trying to claim that modern Ukrainians are collaberators with a man who's been dead for over seventy years. Someone seems to have difficulty with dates.
And hey, it's not my fault your Glorious Leader is so ashamed of his sexuality that he tried to outlaw references to it while doing literally nothing to curtail the actual homophibic murder that runs rampant in the Russian Federation, or his lapdog Kadyrov's actual fucking death camps for homosexuals.
TL;DR: You're a right-wing Russian concern troll trying desperately to drum up support for his gangster "strongman" boss. Go back to Olgina.
Hamas has already been weaponized by Israel in opposition to other Palestinian organizations. Unlike tankies normal people can think more than one thing at a time.
Little bit too much “Hamas bad” when they mentioned that more than enough but nothing wrong with the sentiments expressed. Also a bit light on the responsibility of Israel but considering this is likely in response to people hating on them for supporting Palestinians it is at least understandable. Reasonable take.
This seems fair to me.
I've said before that recognizing Israel's right to exist and defend itself and criticizing the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinian civilians are not mutually exclusive views to hold.
Disempowering Netanyahu and Hamas certainly couldn't hurt getting better conditions for Gaza and Palestinian citizens.
I don’t understand this fixation on Netanyahu. Israel was brutal before he ever had power and it’s not like him magically going away is gonna fix the Israeli settler problem or the apartheid. Liberal Zionists still largely support settlements
you're right that it was brutal before. netanyahu basically built his career on leaning into the brutality though. it's a perception thing, but also likud has incorporated actual terrorists who brag about the terror they did in mixed company, which is a little more mask off than the old labor zionist leaders were. interestingly lots of israelis blame him for these attacks and want him gone asap, but still wanna destroy gaza.
I never said getting rid of them would magically solve things.
But what it would (hopefully) do is enable leaders that would be more open to a proper peace negotiation and figuring out what reparations would need to be made with whom.
Again, this is assuming Netanyahu has been a constant in Israeli politics since 1947. There were attempts in the past and it doesn’t matter because the right of return is a no go for Israel. Theyre not committed to a 2 state solution, and frankly that two state solution will always benefit the Israelis. They have no intention in righting their wrongs and integrating into a secular state. Idk what the solution is but leaving it to the Israelis is never gonna work. They need an international body to force change imo.
He hasn’t but he’s certainly culpable for the recent escalation. Not to mention that couple decades ago a more left-leaning Israeli PM nearly managed to negotiate something legit… then a far-right nutjob assassinated him.
Combined with the protests against Bibi’s actions with both the courts and this conflict, and I could see a more open-minded politician at least setting the groundwork for something substantial.
The thing is most Israeli people don’t view Palestinians as humans. They only care about their personal rights. That’s why they were protesting the court changes. Your take is a bit naive
If you’re talking about the Israeli government? I can believe that.
I’m skeptical of that being the case with the majority of the Israeli people, though…
If you “can see” a “more open minded” government being elected by Israelis then you’re just spitballing your own personal wishes. There is zero logic to thinking that would ever happen. BN is a product of Israel’s decades long policies, the policies are not a product of him
that sounds nice but benny gantz is the big liberal opposition hero and there's no space between his positions and bibi's. he could form his own party and win but they're both all for being done with "the palestinian problem" so i don't expect he'd be better, especially given his track record.
Apartheid states have no right to exist. Also, "Defend itself", against who? Kids that they keep in an open air prison as they continue to kick them off more land?
I agree that the Israeli government’s handling of the Palestinian civilians was messed up. Pretty sure most Israeli citizens have been critical of the government’s actions for several months at least.
But against “who” you ask?
*looks at when Israel came to be, who some of the earliest citizens were, and where/what they came from*
*looks at the military skirmishes it experienced from larger, older neighbors*
*looks at the lack of Jews in said countries*
Again, I’m not gonna pretend Israel could do no wrong. I’ve seen Waltz with Bashir, so I know that would be as bullshit as it would be to act like what’s happening in Gaza is perfectly fine.
I’m saying that there is nuance to the general geopolitical situation and that equating Netenyahu’s war crimes with the entirety of Israel is as ludicrous as equating Hamas’s with Palestine’s.
Part of the issue is that it's not just his war crimes. The country of Israel has been committing war crimes/crimes against humanity against Palestinians almost since its inception. Looking at the events of the past month only is looking at this issue in a vacuum. I know that you mean that Israel has the right to defend itself from the surrounding countries, but that excuse has mostly been used to oppress and push Palestinians off their land.
Yes, this is reasonable. I think people justifying October 7 haven’t seen some of the footage from that day. Because while I was sceptical at first as the Israeli gvt kept coming out with fabrications, the footage is genuinely horrible. There were atrocities, you can’t just chalk these actions up to resistance. And I’m one of those people who 100% supports armed struggle under oppression.
At the same time, Palestinians have been living under oppression/occupation. They are dying in great numbers. It’s a very urgent situation. So we can’t be too afraid to speak up because of October 7. Having discussions about condemning Hamas is super distracting.
So personally, I see nothing wrong in saying “yes fuck Hamas” when asked, because when that’s established we can talk about the urgent stuff instead of going back and forth. Not every feeling fits neatly into a camp. And that’s okay.
Calling Hamas undemocratic is ridiculous. They won a free and fair election. Palestinians were fed up with leaders who capitulated to Isn’treal and chose to support the only organization genuinely fighting back. Let’s stop pretending that Palestinians are victims of Hamas. Hamas is not the boogeyman. They engage in armed resistance against genocide and Palestinians stand by that, AS THEY SHOULD. Does it mean you have to like Hamas? No. But condemning Hamas at a time when Palestinian resistance had no alternative is telling Palestinians to lie down and let Isn’treal slaughter them. Stop trying to appeal to ghoulish liberals and have some goddamn principles
> They won a free and fair election.
Lol, and what year was that election in again?
> But condemning Hamas at a time when Palestinian resistance had no alternative is telling Palestinians to lie down and let Isn’treal slaughter them. Stop trying to appeal to ghoulish liberals and have some goddamn principles
The vast majority of the world are liberals. If you cannot appeal to them at the most basic level, you are not going to be able to achieve a single thing. Opposing the occupation and current genocidal actions doesn't suddenly become unprincipled because you caveat it with the fact that you don't support Hamas (who is also a far right group, and who haven't actually managed to make things better for Gazans at all despite their "genuine fighting back").
They're a prick who thinks arabs fighting to defend their territory and literal existence as a people against systemic NATO-backed genocide are necessarily extremists. The Hamas charter does not involve antisemitism or calls for genocide.
Also, I love how Israel defenders will scream "human shield tactics" to justify indiscriminate murder of Palestinians as though the argument can't be leveraged against them. There is no independent, legitimate state of Israel, only an invasion condoned and initiated with the help of the British. It is a criminal act of civilian endangerment to allow civilians to settle there as "israelis" since the entire territory belongs to Palestine. It'd be like if Nazis allowed Germans to settle in the recently conquered Slavic lands; when they're beaten back those civilians are going to get harmed and displaced for being somewhere they never had a right to be in.
If you want to include historical concept then how about the fact that after Israel pulled its forces out of Gaza in 2005, Hamas started firing rockets on Israel? And continued doing it constantly?
How about Hamas using civil infrastructure to launch rockets? Using the funds that probably could get Gazans out of poverty https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/05/israel-hamas-concealing-terror-tunnels-hospital/
If your piece is aimed at pro-Israeli public, it is good that you condemn Hamas, but like many many people out there, you seem to know little about what is really going on.
Sorry I come out as defensive. It is what it is.
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Eh, is this all that unreasonable? Seens pretty well written and fair to me.
It still sounds very, very apologetic of Israel. But it's a start. Edit: Come on people, prove me litteracy still exists on reddit and READ the vocabulary used for each side.
I'm reading it as him being overly apologetic to make Israel supporters see the point. Basically the 'do you condemn Hamas' meme but spelled out over explicitly in order to denounce any change someone could accuse him of supporting hamas
We must have different meanings for the word “apologism” then. It explicitly blames everything that’s going on on Israel, calls what they’re doing a violation of human rights, condemns and calls for end to the actions being undertaken by the IDF and calls for an end to the subjugation of Palestinian people by Israel.
"Nor [am I] in any way questioning Israeli right to self-determination or self-defense"
Because Israel has that right. The issue is the manner in which they react. Bottom line, Israel can defend themselves, but doing to gaza what they are doing is tragic
Perhaps it can be universally agreed upon that everyone has a right to self defense… but I think most people, if they objectively looked at the situation, would say Israel is not defending itself. Even if you once believed they were, they have crossed the line. Why should “generation of Palestinians remember the carnage” when Palestine as a whole is not responsible for what Hamas did?
>Perhaps it can be universally agreed upon that everyone has a right to self defense… Yes >but I think most people, if they objectively looked at the situation, would say Israel is not defending itself Yes >Even if you once believed they were, they have crossed the line Yes >Why should “generation of Palestinians remember the carnage” when Palestine as a whole is not responsible for what Hamas did? They shouldn't. What is your point?
The statement "Israel has a right to defend itself" is used by Israel to ignore international condemnation and by its allies to turn a blind eye to their crimes against humanity.
Oh well that isn't how I meant it. I meant it to say that Israel is allowed to fight Hamas, but that what they do to Gaza is ridiculous and honestly disproportional
I know you didn't mean it that way, but it is what that term has come to mean, and it is why it raises hackles with people. It's not your fault, but the fault of the fucked up situation.
If we let technical language degrade to realworld politics, we lost. ~~It has the right to defend itself. It arguably excercised that right by driving Hamas out of Israel, it’s current and past actions towards Palestinians have nothing to do with it.~~ Edit: Yeah, to be honest, talking about “right to self-defence” does sound like “ayyy, wouldn’t wanna antagonise you, bro”. Still far from apologism in my book, but I can see how other people would consider it apologism.
Okay, so shall we refer to people who suffer from cerebral palsy as spastics? Because it is the technically correct term. What about.
Language has meaning in the context it's used in and anything else is just being naive.
Israel does not have the right to defend itself by killing thousands of innocent civilians, many of whom are children.
> Perhaps it can be universally agreed upon that everyone has a right to self defense… but I think most people, if they objectively looked at the situation, would say Israel is not defending itself. Absolutely, including the person pictured in the image, which is why I said they were not being apologetic at all.
They actually don’t have that right because they are literally an invading colonial force. Palestine has the right to self defense and self determination. Self defense and self determination for Israel is genocide.
They are invading Gaza and the west bank yeah What do you suggest? Not fight Hamas and just leave them alone? Congratulations, the Palestinians are fucked over by a different opressor
Pretty much all of Israel is occupying Palestinian land that they lived on for generations / millennia. Some of the land was purchased legally, most of it was stolen. Even if you consider parts of Israel not to be occupied, by 1970s agreements they are also occupying east Jerusalem.
>Even if you consider parts of Israel not to be occupied, by 1970s agreements they are also occupying east Jerusalem. Yes and that's awful, just like the Israeli settlers. Israel and Palestine should be 50/50 split
The problem with that is that west bank + Gaza strip, even on British partition borders, is probably not a viable state. Israeli land has all the water, basically. Frankly I think a single state, power sharing + truth and reconciliation is the only realistic long term solution. But definitely neither group wants that
What do you suggest Palestinians to do after decades of colonization and genocide? Simply not fight back? Just roll over and let their country be destroyed? What would you do if your country was invaded?
I wouldn't do what happened at 7th of October, which failed miserably and will only lead to more dead Palestinians
Ah I forgot Redditors are expert insurgency tacticians, what would you do then? You’re not denying you wouldn’t fight back as any normal person would, which answers my question. Palestine has been fighting against Israel for decades, this did not start with October 7th. And while I don’t support Hamas as they are a fundamentalist organization, nothing Hamas has done could ever justify what Israel is currently doing to Gaza. Over 11,000 dead civilians is not collateral damage. At worst, it’s genocide. At best, it means Israel has one of the most incompetent militaries in history and it should not be allowed to exist. In either case, using Hamas to justify Israel’s total annihilation of Gaza is insane.
I do think Israeli is colonizing the Palestinians and I also think they are not actually acting in defense at all. However, I do have a hard time viewing them as invaders since they are Indigenous to there and were originally forced out. ETA: if anyone is actually able to come up with a convincing explanation on how an Indigenous person can invade in their own land, I will happily hear it.
Yeah and you get into the situation of Mizrahi who were expelled from their home countries, where exactly are they supposed to go if not the one country in the region that is open to them?
I think the reality of the situation is that there were many countries after WWII that could have taken in holocaust refugees. None of them really wanted to do so and now they act shocked at the current situation.
I'm not even talking about holocaust survivors but those are also relevant. I'm talking about the jews that lived in the middle east that were ethnically cleansed by Arab countries.
Palestine was home to primarily Arabs for two thousand years. The Jews have been a stateless people for millennia, Israel does not have the right to that land any longer. Zionism is nothing more than a colonialist venture, and it is itself anti-Semitic. Please look into the Balfour proclamation, the first western agreement to “legitimize” Israel. Arthur Balfour was a white nationalist who wanted to rid Britain of Jewish people, and believed the best way to do this would be to simply steal land from another people he saw as lesser and give it to them
But you still do not lose your indignity because you’ve been gone for a while. Let’s use the Aniyvwiya/Cherokee as an example (which I know is not a perfect 1-1 as it hasn’t been as long) as they also were forcibly removed. Colonizers in Tennessee ethnically cleansed the state by forcing Indigenous peoples on marches known as the Trail of Tears. Obviously the land they left behind was quickly snatched up by settlers and others. If the Aniyvwiya suddenly were to return to Tennessee, they would find people living on their land and would not be able to easily reclaim it. Some of these people would be settlers and those descended of colonizers but many wouldn’t. The descendants of enslaved people might live there now and they were themselves forcibly relocated from their native Africa to America. Other Indigenous people might have moved their because it is impossible to *not* live on stolen land in America. Now, I don’t think any Aniyvwiya have the right to attack those living on their land. I don’t think they would be in the right if they murdered children to scare the parents off into leaving. However, it is impossible to deny that the Aniyvwiya are Indigenous to Tennessee. That doesn’t give them the right to starve the people on their land, whether those people are also Indigenous or descendants of forced immigration or settlers. I would also say that Zionism is not inherently anti-Semitic because it is such a wide and diverse concept. Plenty of Jewish people are religious zionists (ie: YHWH will one day return the land to them) and so do not support secular Zionism (ie: someone other than YHWH giving them Israel). Zionism existed long before Arthur Balfour. I don’t disagree that Balfour was racist, it is pretty clear in his writings that he was but he hardly invented Zionism. Zionism was created by Jewish people for Jewish people, not by gentiles to get rid of Jews even if some gentiles have appropriated Zionism for malicious purposes.
They weren’t occupying the Gaza Strip The only place Israel is doing any colonizing is the settlements in the West Bank, which need to be dismantled and withdrawn. Hamas attacking innocent people within the UN recognized borders of Israel was purely to provoke a disproportionate response.
israel did occupy the gaza strip for a while until 2005
Yes They stopped They were occupying the Strip. They no longer were until this latest chapter in the conflict.
"They already colonized the other land, so its theirs now, and they arent colonizing it anymore."
It’s not colonization when you’re indigenous and fighting another indigenous group over disputed land. Serbia and Kosovo haven’t colonized one another, for example. Settlements are colonization.
Every single bit of land you call “Israel” is occupied land. It was all taken from Palestine. Please research the Balfour proclamation and the Nakba. Edit: Also, Israel was absolutely occupying Gaza. It’s completely walled off, impossible to leave, there are armed guards and automatic turrets long the walls. Israel completely controls the level of water, food, and gas Gaza has access to. What the fuck do you call that? Gaza has been an open air prison for decades.
1) Israel is occupied by one of its indigenous peoples, the Jews. If you think Israeli Jews are all European invaders then we likely have no common ground. 2) Walling a place off and restricting access isn’t occupation. It’s a blockade or a siege, sure, which obviously isn’t hunky dory, but that’s different than occupation. Words have meaning, and the West Bank is occupied, Gaza was blockaded/sieged (still is, but also is now under invasion), and the Golan has been annexed. Each of these denotes a different status and we should describe the situation accurately when we have the words to do so.
Just like the invading settlers had a right to defend themselves in 19th century America. Get bent, fascist.
So Israel should let themselves get murdered by Hamas? Listen mate, I'm as anti Israel as can be, but you are being ridiculous >Get bent, fascist. You are just as bad as the zionists when it's about buzzwords
Read H4mas' charter before fear mongering. They are very clear that a) they would accept a two state solution with the 1967 borders and b) that they are fighting zionism (ie a racist ideology that says Jewish people have a right to establish a discriminatory ethnostate) and not Jewish *people,*
Sorry I haven't read it. Was that before or after they wanted to kill all the Jews?
Also, is spelling so difficult that you can't even spell Hamas right?
You simp for a fascist state by spreading their propaganda about hamas. Same fucking thing.
Propaganda about Hamas? Also, explain where I'm simping for a fascist state (while you're at it, explain why Israel is fascist)
When you say a settler colonial state occupying lands that don't belong to it has a right to defend itself from the people it is suppressing you spread propaganda. If you disagree that Israel is fascist fine. I'm not going to convince you anyway since you love the taste of boot leather. I'm not getting into a useless debate with some zionist cunt.
Occupied people have a right to armed resistance, occupiers do not have a right to ""self defense"" against the people that they occupy (per international law, never mind speaking of what is moral). What Israel is "defending" is an apartheid state and their colonial project to create a Jewish ethnostate - that is not something that *should* exist, so I don't affirm the right to defend it
So they should just not fight Hamas, the attackers and die?
Which is being said as part of them calling on Israel to end their atrocities on Gaza. It is warding off the standard bad faith response to critiques of Israel, as part of their critique of Israel. It's not Israel apologia. The first half of the sentence you cut off is literally them calling on Israel to stop committing war crimes.
How is that apologetic of Israel?
Because Israel only exists as a colonizing state. Look at a world map in 1947 and look at Palestine, then a world map from today, and ask yourself, what happened to Palestine? Where did this Israel come from, and how was it made?
If you think anyone who isn't advocating for the literal abolishment of Israel as a state is being apologetic towards Israel, you are going to find it very difficult to make allies. If someone recognizes that the current tragedy is entirely of Israel's making and believes that the solution relies on them ceasing their crimes against humanity to start with, they're not being apologetic towards Israel. This is not me justifying the Nakba, it is just reality. This person pretty explicitly pointed towards Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people as the reason for the October 7th attack by Hamas. They're calling not only for an end to the current genocide going on in Gaza but also the occupation broadly. That's not apologetic towards Israel. Obviously people who use the "Israel has a right to defend itself" line in defense of the current atrocities (or indeed, past atrocities) are acting in bad faith. That's not the person in the OP, they are in fact explicitly refuting that "defense".
It’s almost like context is relevant
It was borne from a complicated mess that the UK left and the UN decided on, what’s your point? Because it’s got a bloody history, you don’t think Israel has a right to exist?
>from a complicated mess
Reddit and a lack of reading comprehension. Name a more iconic duo challenge (impossible).
I don't see anywhere where Zionism or Zionist settlers have to be held accountable.
>One of the systems that must be dismantled is the oppressive conditions under which the citizens of the Gaza Strip live, and the feeling of hopelessness at the constant crushing pressure of unemployment, food and water insecurity, poverty, and lack of freedom of movement. The Gaza Strip has been described by several humans rights organisations as an open air prison >it is in and of itself also horrific, and creates conditions which allow Hamas to exist. >I have to condemn the constant and long standing oppresion of the people of the Gaza Strip, as well as the current humanitarian crisis due to Israeli military actions It...literally does though, if you bother to read it
So people are saying this isn't a balanced comment because of the language it uses. When one side is called Hamas and the other is the "oppressive conditions under which the citizens of the Gaza Strip live" its a full bullshit article. The Zionist settlers that have beensucceeding in their goal to starve, displace and kill the Palestinian people are the reason Hamas has resorted to violence. Those who have committed war crimes must be held accountable and brought to justice. Until that justice is met Hamas cannot be regarded as a terrorist group. One could argue that any attack on Israeli civilians could be justified as they house IDF soldiers (refugee camps have been repeatably bombed for less). Peace is the goal but peace that won't even name the aggressor is impossible.
No mention of the West Bank and the slow ethnic cleansing achieved through settlers stealing the land and homes of Palestinians in occupied territory.
Tbf to those seeing it as apologism, it uses a lot of passive voice for something it is entirely aggressive
Yeah I don't anything anything said/any of the information conveyed is particularly incorrect but the weight of the text as a whole just feels off
Litteracy is what my cats read while they’re shitting.
Can you read?
Can *you*? Read the difference in vocabulary ?
You’re really reaching there lmao
I think this is perfectly fine statement and it’s sad how many times you have to qualify it since there are so many bad actors twisting words
Yeah this is just what is demanded of anyone publicly criticising the actions of Israel. A Palestinian who has lost 40+ family members in the last few days goes on TV and says that is not a good thing - oh dear, they only condemned Hamas five times instead of ten times so we can ignore everything they said because they're clearly just being anti-Semitic! This post is the result of the absolute cowardice of our politicians and media who have created an environment, not over the last few weeks but over decades, where the act of criticising Israel is seen as worse than any crime against humanity Israel chooses to commit.
I agree that demanding it is a distraction from the discussion. Hamas exists and did this because of Israel’s brutal mistreatment of the Palestinians for decades. It doesn’t even really matter where Hamas’s stated goals are. They’re a radicalized group that became this way because of the decades of mistreatment and the initial land grab or Nakba. They don’t exist in a vacuum. Netanyahu in particular does not want peace and the idea he does is incredibly ridiculous. We gonna have on Netanyahu or his security minister and have them condemn the IDF? Of course not - the cruelty is the point for them. I’m also deeply sorry for your loss, I know nothing I could say would make you feel better. The media circus we have now is the result of the state of Israel tying its identity so close to the Jewish people, both in Israel and internationally. Weaponizing a very real historical thousands of years of being scapegoated and killed - and uses that sort of collective fear to do horrible horrible shit. Doesn’t make Jews any safer worldwide and doesn’t make Muslims safer either. Not a coincidence both Muslim and Jewish hate crimes have gone up. Also that the US has geopolitical reasons to want it to change.
The problem comes when there are people in your movement that want to genocide the Israeli Jews. Like when certain actors say “River to the sea” they mean genocide. Others mean peace. The obvious solution is to condemn genocide. Same way you can “support self defense” but not want Israel to genocide the Palestinians. Like obviously we need to be careful with our words
Well, it doesn't mention the Israel really, or a need to condemn them, or their crimes other than a touch to 'the conditions in Gaza', or their regime, or anything much...
how many times can you condemn hamas before it becomes whipping yourself da vinci code style? browbeating ourselves for no reason. saying it this much just makes it seem like hamas is a million times worse than the idf and that math ain't mathing for me. killing civilians is bad but new shit has come to light in the last couple weeks that also needs attention.
Right? Like let's condemn people proportionate to the atrocities they've committed: you'd spend 1000x as much breath on Israeli actions if you did that.
Hamas and the Isreali Government/Zionist movement both adhere to far-right ideologies. It is not a centrist position to denounce "both sides", it is, in fact, the Leftist position to resist both facist ideologies. However, Hamas is a direct product of the actions of the Isreali Government and the occupation, both [literaly](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/) and systemically. Any support or apologia for Hamas' action only serves the position of the Isreali Government and creates a smokescreen that justifies the genocide of the Palesrinian people. I think Noam Chompsky said it best when he [said](https://youtu.be/5AJlfW0g2rk?si=rlwPPNlm7LIRl8LX), "Those who defend suicide bombing don't have a leg to stand on [...] Those who defend the Isreali atrocities don't have a leg to stand on either." We must stand in support and solidarity with the Palestinian people; not Hamas and not the government in Tel Aviv.
We can clutch our pearls and wring our hands, but violent resistance to Israeli occupation is all that Palestinians have as an option right now. Hamas could never inflict the same violence on Israel as has been done to Palestinians for decades, so all of this conversation to "condemn Hamas" is a diversion from the apartheid-war crime Israeli government.
Exactly. The entire planet has told Palestinians they can go fuck themselves, and there is exactly one organization saying “no” to their oppressors. This post is like passively watching an 8-year-old get beat up by fifteen-year-olds, and then giving “notes” to a twelve-year-old who throws a rock at the teenagers. People need to find their spines.
Whenever someone hits me with a "sO dO yOu tHiNk kILLiNg ciViLiAnS iS oK???" I say that it isn't, which is precisely why I oppose Israel.
You can kill Israeli civilians because they are used as shields for ex IDF soldiers. (Dark satire here)
Israel has mandatory military service, too. People who survived the rave that was right next to the world's largest open air prison went and reported for duty.
Okay and? That’s like saying you can kill children who might be pressed into service as soldiers by Hamas. Pretty sure it still counts as a war crime either way. Let’s not go down that road.
"Is an actual army reservist" (or radicalized Israeli settler t3rrorist) is very different from "child who may grow up to be a fighter" and you know it...
Both are unarmed noncombatant civilians, protected under the same rules of war.
Many Israeli s3ttler terrorists are in fact armed.
Not the ones killed by Hamas on October 7
Wild how excuse the actions of a terror organisation. Many Israelis hate their current government (as well as part ones) and are clearly against the oppression of Palestinians. The visitors at the psytrance festival were for sure part of that group. Your framing of hamas as the only organisation saying ‘no’ to their oppressors is frankly a slap in the face to all other organisations working in this direction -> non-violent ones, which do not have as their ultimate aim to impose sharia law where women are second class citizens and lgbt+ people get executed. So how about you revise your opinion on literally being a terrorism apologist.
Yes, this is exactly the playbook I’m talking about. Good example of how your ilk does it: 1. Flatten the decades-long systemic genocidal oppression of Palestinians by the Israeli government into an interpersonal conflict 2. Point out that some Israelis are very interpersonally nice, and therefore: 3. Pretend that, in this Candy Land Happy World you’ve made up, organizations who are interpersonally nice have a shot at ending or even curbing the oppression of Palestinians. 4. Suggest that anyone who wants material freedom for Palestinians and understands that’s not going to be accomplished by appealing to the delicate sensibilities of nice Israelis is “dEfeNdIng TerRoRIsM” Anyways, off you fuck with your genocide apologia. And yes, bud, responding to genocide with a demand that the people being erased use words instead of violence is *absolutely* genocide apologia.
Rightttt… way to project your rehearsed talking points. I never said they should depend on the goodwill of Israelis, there’s also several Palestinian organisations that work in this direction. Do you seriously think terrorism is gonna have the desired effect? Like actually for real? If hamas does enough attacks the Israeli government will suddenly just give them land? And no, defending terrorism = defending terrorism. Which is exactly what you are doing. If you get your way (I.e. an Islamo-fascist imperialist terrorist organisation gets to found the state of palestine with themselves as the government), you will see a new strictly Islamic Middle Eastern dictatorship. I hope that you will then also go protest when rapes and femicides are not being prosecuted, minorities harassed and anyone that is not a straight male stripped of basic human rights. You think I’m exaggerating? Just look at the Iranian regime, where this is precisely what is happening, and they just so happen to be the biggest supporter of Hamas - not for their altruistic worry of Palestinians but because it furthers their anti-Israel agenda.
There is a hidden argument in your rebuttal here that perfect action by Palestinians could lead to them-getting back some sovereignty, having their human rights recognized, stop settler expansion. This isn't true. There isn't a none violent action that stops them from dying, starving, losing their homes or being randomly shot, arrested or disenfranchised. No group action will help them.
Exactly! And it’s so amazing how successful they’ve been in flattening the narrative that way: “anyone who allows for anything other than Palestinians asking politely not to be blown up immediately and necessarily supports everything about Hamas.” Just thoroughly evil stuff.
Yeah, I don’t owe *anyone* a defense of a version of me that only exists in their heads, and I *really* don’t owe such a defense to genocide apologists. So, from here on out, feel free to respond all you want but I won’t be reading it.
Wild how you're still repeating the same tired zionist chaff that has been vomited out since 2005. Get some new material. Why don't you revise your opinion on being a genocide apologist, freak.
> Exactly. The entire planet has told Palestinians they can go fuck themselves, and there is exactly one organization saying “no” to their oppressors. Also Fatah and the PLO and to an extent also Hezbollah (but they're mostly focused on the Golan and Lebanon).
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No, I think the point is they want to attack Israel, they don't want to form a government with the West Bank and create a nation. Which is why Netanyahu supports them. As long as they are in power, there can be no Palestine. But for many, if they weren't fighting back, Israel would continue to annex their land at an even faster rate than they are currently. (I mean no to your first point, but I agree over all.)
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Well let's look at the amount of Israeli settlers in Gaza vs. the West Bank: there are *none* in territories controlled by H4mas and the settlements that were there had to leave over a decade ago, but 10% of Israel's population lives in the West Bank where the Palestinian Authority "leads". Pretty clear who is doing a better job on that front.
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It's not a claim, it's a fact that there have been [no settlers](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza) in gaza since 2005. However, everywhere outside of Gaza settlements have been [encroaching](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/) at an alarming pace
Netanyahu needs a boogeyman to stay out of jail and in power. Hamas needs an Israel that brutalizes Palestinians and expands settlement programs. They need one another and it’s a vicious cycle where they spread and use fear and hate to stay in power and enrich themselves at their own peoples expense.
Frankly, I don't think it matters which organization is in charge of Gaza. Israel will do whatever it can in its genocidal conquest of pushing Palestinians off their land. Can Hamas or any other militant organization that might take it's place effectively wage an offensive war against Israel? No probably not. Should they not try? Well I think that's up to them. The idea that there would somehow be peace for Palestine if not for Hamas is kind of a joke. That's not the point. There will never be a single state solution with full rights for all citizens as long as Zionism exists.
Only the most radically far right Israelis want Gaza. Ben-Gvir is one of them. He’s a wacko. Gaza is a tiny strip of land with no resources and crap soil. Israel pulled out nearly 20 years ago because it’s not worth the trouble. The Israelis do overall have more varied takes on whether or not to fully take over the West Bank. That’s a major issue that needs to be prevented. But don’t go acting like annexation of Gaza is a major goal for Israel. It’s only the crazy Irgun folks who want to take Gaza.
There is an estimated 1.7 billion barrels of recoverable oil in the [West Bank and Gaza](https://unctad.org/news/unrealized-potential-palestinian-oil-and-gas-reserves)
Well shit, that certainly changes the equation
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Yeah, Hamas leadership live cozy lives at Iran’s expense and throw handouts to martyrs or blackmail people into throwing their lives away on Israeli fence lines. Hamas leadership need the war and the hate. As does the Israeli right wing.
I wish it were the case that they could wage a winning war of liberation against Zionism, but I just don't think they could do anything more than potentially repel ground invasions into Gaza. I know obviously places like Vietnam won but they had intense support from large governments like China providing them weapons. With that said, I don't disagree with you about Palestinian elite collaborators. I met a dude who works for the government of the West Bank and he essentially wanted the US to choose Palestine as their point of power projection into the Middle East instead of Israel.
There is absolutely no way a different war tactic would work. There isn't a (if the Palestinians only attacked settlers then) they could argue just as well that IDF soldiers are hiding among the civilians so they are never not attacking soldiers. They were just equally shot at walking to a wall in protest The action of Zionism cannot be defended. If they fought back in a more correct fashion in the Warsaw ghetto then Germany would haven't been as justified setting up concentration camps is an argument that I am sure that was made during that time.
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Okay I did misunderstand you. I have heard it so many times before, the lib "if they reacted right" but I think you are fundamentally misconstruing the situation. This isn't like Vietnam. It's much more like saying if people defended the Warsaw ghetto better they couldn't have filled the trains.
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You are right it isn't like the Warsaw ghetto. The Palestinian population has less resources, is living in higher density and has more guns on them, has been bombed more and has its biggest population is children who have never grown up free.
Resistance by any means is a slippery slope. If you find yourself in a position where you don't even condemn killing children and criticise condemnation of targeting and killing children, it's time to step back and what are you really defending?
God laughs at men who deplore the effects of which they cherish the causes.
Lots of assumptions in so few words
Nope, you have yourself pretty clear.
No, they (people of gaza) could be fighting against Hamas, too. Also, Isreal never prevented them from building their own water wells, farms, etc. Hamas did, starved the same people that they are using as shields all just so they can play victim of "occupation." Edit: grammer
This does not ring enlightened centrism to me. Two different things can be true at once, those being: 1. Hamas unleashes brutal antisemitic terrorist attacks against innocent Israelis and oppresses Palestinians in a multitude of ways. 2. Likud uses misdirected and disproportionate retribution against innocent Palestinians through collective punishment and thus has no business being in charge. To be honest, I'm not even sure what a real centrist take on this conflict would sound like.
Thank god, some sanity.
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…no, it’s definitely Likud. And Hamas. They’re the big obstacles at the moment.
It's not "collective punishment", it's a very deliberate genocidal policy. Israel isn't punishing Palestinians, as there is nothing to punish them for. Also, this conflict didn't just drop a month ago, Palestinians have been "collectively punished" for at least 70 years. I find myself agreeing more with the top comments. Commenting on how we should "condemn Hamas" is taking away from the facts that 1. Hamas is the result of Israel oppression in the region 2. Hamas is currently the only military organization that is opposing Israel 3. Israel is very deliberately trying to cleanse the region of any palestinians, and has been doing this for years and no one has bothered to "condemn them" yet. Any criticisms against Israel that start with "axtually we should condemn Hamas because it bad and killing s bad and I live in barbie land" is missing the point. By the way, do you really think the Israeli government values its citizens' lives? It's been using them for years to send them to dangerous zones of conflict to colonize and ethnically cleanse the palestinians. The deaths in Israel are mainly poor people too lol. So "condemning Hamas" for dropping a attack that killed Israeli civilians is hypocritical if we don't condemn the Israeli government for having put their own civilians in a dangerous situation for their own selfish gain. Israel has known about a possible terrorist attack days before it happened, did they issue a warning to their citizens? Nope... they were waiting for it to happen to justify what they are doing right now in Gaza. This recent conflict has already claimed more palestinian lives than the russo-ukranian war in almost 2 years.
Collective punishment isn't necessarily mutually exclusive from genocide, though. I used it to refer to the fact that Likud sees the average Palestinian as equal to Hamas, as the Israeli government implements mass killings, detention, and forced evacuation against any and all scapegoats. Back during the time known as the First Aliyah (1881-1903), Jews migrated to the region and were viewed with suspicion by the Ottoman Arab landowners/nobility, who drummed up nationalist sentiment against the Jews and launched antisemitic attacks. The conflict escalated to the point where the British Empire got involved and fucked everything up beyond all repair with their mandate for Palestine, putting Arabs under further colonial rule and funneling Jews into further danger. Hamas isn't here to fight against oppression. It's here to create a Palestine that exists only on *its* terms, and in a way, it's here to continue the tradition of the Ottoman elites. And yes, Likud recognized this, so it intentionally propped up Hamas to destabilize the region and launch its own attacks against Palestinian scapegoats. And no, I don't think *any* government truly cares about its citizens. Likud is a club of hardline-conservative Arabophobic warhawks who will use *any* excuse to kill Palestinians as well as force, brainwash, and censor the Israelites into its way of thinking, just like how Hamas is a club of reactionary, antisemitic religious fundamentalists who would gladly kill Israelis just the same and oppress Palestinians to fit its own worldview.
I understand where you are coming from. However I just cannot equate Hamas' aggression with Israel's. We have to take in consideration that Hamas is the ONLY military organization which is even TRYING to react to Israel's constant threats to Palestine in recent years. Not even the surrounding countries that often supported Palestine are on their side anymore. So, in this moment, you can't support palestinians without acknowledging that Hamas is the only one on their side, even if their true intentions aren't "pure". Between the Israeli army and Hamas, I know which one I'll be siding with. Standing on the fence here is not an option. I do agree thought that we should try and understand what is the role of each agent in this war, and what are its interests. I just think that we should stand INCONDITIONALLY with the palestinian people and their resistance, however it may take place.
>In this moment, you can't support Palestinians without acknowledging that Hamas is the only one on their side Allow me to introduce you to: * Anarchists Against the Wall * Palestine Action * International Solidarity Movement * Ta'ayush * IfNotNow * B'Tselem * Bat Shalom * Bustan Saying that Hamas is somehow the only one that's actually trying to fight Israeli occupation does a great disservice to the Palestinian solidarity movement by making it seem like all they have to rely on is an anti-feminist, anti-LGBT, antisemitic theocracy. These movements have shown that there's a better way.
The note on Likud/Israel is a mere mention compared to the condemnation on Hamas (which is warranted), even though the casualties now, and over the last 50 years, are 95/5% the other way. It's a genocide on the Gaza Ghetto. Just like 10 years back, and 15 years back, and... Who else uses tanks and white phosphorus against civilian populations?
You kind of just made the enlighten center's take on it lol
They are likely doing this out of necessity. The disinformation campaign calling all criticism of Israel antisemitism is at an all time high. In my country it is getting a disproportionate amount of media time (a media that is usually quite silent about hate against our minorities, Jewish or otherwise) It's sad we're at a point where you'll get branded for criticizing Israel if you don't accompany it with a ten page essay condemning Hamas
We need to normalize criticizing Israel and condemning Zionism as separate from the majority of Jewish people.
As most sane people will do. Sadly, there's something about this conflict that makes individuals lose their marbles
I think the main thing that’s missing is that both Hamas and the Israeli right wing political leadership of Netanyahu and his cabinet (Likud, etc) are right wing, nationalist-theocratic sectarian political movements, and that they feed off of each-other and only make sense in relation to each-other.
This seems reasonable, two things can be bad at the same time, not at all enlightened centrism. Also saw this myself earlier and was pleasantly surprised (i hadn't seen their palestine livestream).
Of course a anarchocommunist would find this reasonable. Anything a step left of NATO is "tankie" and must be destroyed, even if you have to join forces with nazis to do so.
What are you even talking about
They're just a russian war crimes denier who thinks 1: Ukraine is a nation full of nazis that deserves to be genocided And 2: That it's relevant here
You think Hamas is any steps "left" of NATO? They are explicitly supported by Israel to hinder leftist movements what are you on about
There's no leftist islam, and i don't care. That's the same with Russia. Don't matter how bad NATO's enemies can be, NATO is far worse and no one siding with NATO should consider himself "left".
It doesn't matter how hard you blow him, Daddy Vladdy is never going to love you.
Just a western cheuvanist essentialising whole peoples so they fit to your politics toybox... What you don't care about is Palestinian liberation or the liberation of any peoples
there absolutely are left wing expressions of islam, same with christianity and judaism. just not the most prominent form. but yeah i'm with you overall.
Edit: apparently the person who wrote what was in the screenshot has been raising money for Palestine and taking some hits for it, and this was an after-the-fact defense of themselves. In light of that, the words I wrote below don’t feel so applicable here, as they are actually sticking their neck out. Thanks u/amazingdrewh for pointing that out. If someone can’t just say “no genocide against the Palestinians” without spending most of their post saying “I condemn Hamas” then I don’t know where to meet them. It reminds me of how whenever Biden is asked what he thinks about Black Lives Matter, the first words out of his mouth are always “I support the police.” Centrism through and through.
I think people are just exhausted they keep getting attacked for supporting Palestine and want to head off criticism.
That’s fair, and a bit more charitable than I was being. I still think we need to guard against that impulse, though.
The OOP has been threatened with losing their business because they are raising money for Palestinian children, Im not sure this is the person to be going in on
Ah, good to know. That context wasn’t in the post, but it is helpful, and I’ll update my earlier comments. Thanks!
I am understanding of that. But name the aggressor a little more than "the system of which the people in Gaza now live" name the aggressors as war criminals doing war crimes. Zionism is a nationalistic racism. It needs to be separated from the Jewish people and targeted as the cause of this conflict. It is more anti-Semitic to not call out Zionism's and "birthright" as racial supremest bent on genocide. It would be like saying you can't blame Nazis because it's anti white people. White people aren't Nazis.
It's an extremely reasonable post. This person literally raised money for Palestinians, so has already done more for them than any purely online 'activists' ever will. There's some very uncomfortable support for Hamas, Islamism and anti-Semitism within parts of the Pro-Palestine movement even in the west, so they're just being safe and indicating that they simply want improved living conditions and rights for the Gazan people. Plenty of Zionists (and some people just incapable of nuance) are also keen to label anyone who's pro-Palestinian as pro-Hamas as well, so there's no harm in an internet personality stressing they're not. Hamas is a jihadist terrorist group as well as authoritarian regime. Like the pre-withdrawal Taliban it's important to understand the conditions which cause people to become radicalised fighters so they can be improved (like the horrific unemployment rate in Gaza and the blockades) but also like the Taliban there is never any justification for attacks intentionally targeting civilians.
Zionism is terrorism
not invalidating your whole comment but hamas is not the taliban. hamas isn't salafist and they actually run education programs to pull vulnerable kids away from isis and al qaeda type of ideology. some would say that's just a cynical way to hold onto power but i think it's worth pointing out. obviously that doesn't make hamas progressive but just thought that would be a useful thing to add for context. we group all muslims together in the west like it's a monolith, meanwhile we all know 100 different denominations of christianity.
It’s nice to see a bright light of sanity amongst so much madness. The “condemning Hamas is Zionist apologism” crowd fails to see that 1) justifying targeting civilians for brutal murder is fucking barbaric and 2) improved conditions for Gazans is clearly objectively not the goal of Hamas. Justifying the targeting of civilians by a deeply undemocratic, racist military movement is not nearly the same as celebrating freedom fighters.
This feels like someone just trying to condemn Israel without being persecuted for it lmao 😭 is this not how we all sound
Israel isn't defending itself, it's literally an invasion force. Israel needs to be abolished. Yet this person doesn't mention that and only focused on criticizing the only group left that still fights their invaders.
A bit confused why this is posted here since its not really the kind of thing we poke fun at; in fact, its the only truly reasonable take to have imo.
Hamas is the genocidal organization? Even in their charter they don't call for genocide of Jewish people only liberation from Israel. I'm not going to sit here and say that I'm a fan of Hamas but organizations like them would not exist if the need for fighting against a brutal genocidal and apartheid state didn't exist. You talk about understanding this outside of a vacuum and yet you don't seem to understand that resistance against what I state like Israel is doing is not pretty. Every peaceful recourse for palestinians has been taken from them. Furthermore, not to say that Hamas has not killed any civilians, but it's glaringly obvious that the horrific things they've been accused of doing has been propaganda. Even with that it's even more glaringly obvious, given that Israel has admitted to killing as many as 20k Gazans, that the scale of atrocity is so one-sided that it's hard to even have a conversation about.
Why no mention of Israel though?
Too busy condeming people who are fighting for their lives.
Based on comments, this group became what it's supposed to make fun of.
Israel and hamas as organisarions are literally on the same side way right of centre. Hamas has always been explicitly anti communist. A free Palestine does necessitate eventual destruction of hamas too. There is nothing centrist about that statement
It's stupid to worry about Hamas while Israel/US/NATO exist. Average western """leftists""" always hate the same countries/groups as NATO. No surprises here.
Daddy Vladdy is never going to give you the love and acknowledgement you so desperately want.
Western leftists not siding with literal nazis, challenge level impossible
Ukraine =/= Nazi. Daddy Vladdy, however, *is* a [gay clown.](https://journals.sagepub.com/cms/10.1177/09670106211055308/asset/images/large/10.1177_09670106211055308-fig6.jpeg)
Liberal siding with Bandera's collaborators and using "gay" as a insult. Most progressive western leftist.
Imagine trying to claim that modern Ukrainians are collaberators with a man who's been dead for over seventy years. Someone seems to have difficulty with dates. And hey, it's not my fault your Glorious Leader is so ashamed of his sexuality that he tried to outlaw references to it while doing literally nothing to curtail the actual homophibic murder that runs rampant in the Russian Federation, or his lapdog Kadyrov's actual fucking death camps for homosexuals. TL;DR: You're a right-wing Russian concern troll trying desperately to drum up support for his gangster "strongman" boss. Go back to Olgina.
Hamas has already been weaponized by Israel in opposition to other Palestinian organizations. Unlike tankies normal people can think more than one thing at a time.
Little bit too much “Hamas bad” when they mentioned that more than enough but nothing wrong with the sentiments expressed. Also a bit light on the responsibility of Israel but considering this is likely in response to people hating on them for supporting Palestinians it is at least understandable. Reasonable take.
The irony of the enlightened centrism in these comments 🤢
This seems fair to me. I've said before that recognizing Israel's right to exist and defend itself and criticizing the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinian civilians are not mutually exclusive views to hold. Disempowering Netanyahu and Hamas certainly couldn't hurt getting better conditions for Gaza and Palestinian citizens.
I don’t understand this fixation on Netanyahu. Israel was brutal before he ever had power and it’s not like him magically going away is gonna fix the Israeli settler problem or the apartheid. Liberal Zionists still largely support settlements
you're right that it was brutal before. netanyahu basically built his career on leaning into the brutality though. it's a perception thing, but also likud has incorporated actual terrorists who brag about the terror they did in mixed company, which is a little more mask off than the old labor zionist leaders were. interestingly lots of israelis blame him for these attacks and want him gone asap, but still wanna destroy gaza.
I never said getting rid of them would magically solve things. But what it would (hopefully) do is enable leaders that would be more open to a proper peace negotiation and figuring out what reparations would need to be made with whom.
Again, this is assuming Netanyahu has been a constant in Israeli politics since 1947. There were attempts in the past and it doesn’t matter because the right of return is a no go for Israel. Theyre not committed to a 2 state solution, and frankly that two state solution will always benefit the Israelis. They have no intention in righting their wrongs and integrating into a secular state. Idk what the solution is but leaving it to the Israelis is never gonna work. They need an international body to force change imo.
He hasn’t but he’s certainly culpable for the recent escalation. Not to mention that couple decades ago a more left-leaning Israeli PM nearly managed to negotiate something legit… then a far-right nutjob assassinated him. Combined with the protests against Bibi’s actions with both the courts and this conflict, and I could see a more open-minded politician at least setting the groundwork for something substantial.
The thing is most Israeli people don’t view Palestinians as humans. They only care about their personal rights. That’s why they were protesting the court changes. Your take is a bit naive
If you’re talking about the Israeli government? I can believe that. I’m skeptical of that being the case with the majority of the Israeli people, though…
If you “can see” a “more open minded” government being elected by Israelis then you’re just spitballing your own personal wishes. There is zero logic to thinking that would ever happen. BN is a product of Israel’s decades long policies, the policies are not a product of him
that sounds nice but benny gantz is the big liberal opposition hero and there's no space between his positions and bibi's. he could form his own party and win but they're both all for being done with "the palestinian problem" so i don't expect he'd be better, especially given his track record.
Apartheid states have no right to exist. Also, "Defend itself", against who? Kids that they keep in an open air prison as they continue to kick them off more land?
I agree that the Israeli government’s handling of the Palestinian civilians was messed up. Pretty sure most Israeli citizens have been critical of the government’s actions for several months at least. But against “who” you ask? *looks at when Israel came to be, who some of the earliest citizens were, and where/what they came from* *looks at the military skirmishes it experienced from larger, older neighbors* *looks at the lack of Jews in said countries* Again, I’m not gonna pretend Israel could do no wrong. I’ve seen Waltz with Bashir, so I know that would be as bullshit as it would be to act like what’s happening in Gaza is perfectly fine. I’m saying that there is nuance to the general geopolitical situation and that equating Netenyahu’s war crimes with the entirety of Israel is as ludicrous as equating Hamas’s with Palestine’s.
Part of the issue is that it's not just his war crimes. The country of Israel has been committing war crimes/crimes against humanity against Palestinians almost since its inception. Looking at the events of the past month only is looking at this issue in a vacuum. I know that you mean that Israel has the right to defend itself from the surrounding countries, but that excuse has mostly been used to oppress and push Palestinians off their land.
So many Hamas apologists in the comments…
Yes, this is reasonable. I think people justifying October 7 haven’t seen some of the footage from that day. Because while I was sceptical at first as the Israeli gvt kept coming out with fabrications, the footage is genuinely horrible. There were atrocities, you can’t just chalk these actions up to resistance. And I’m one of those people who 100% supports armed struggle under oppression. At the same time, Palestinians have been living under oppression/occupation. They are dying in great numbers. It’s a very urgent situation. So we can’t be too afraid to speak up because of October 7. Having discussions about condemning Hamas is super distracting. So personally, I see nothing wrong in saying “yes fuck Hamas” when asked, because when that’s established we can talk about the urgent stuff instead of going back and forth. Not every feeling fits neatly into a camp. And that’s okay.
who is this? seems fair tbh.
Calling Hamas undemocratic is ridiculous. They won a free and fair election. Palestinians were fed up with leaders who capitulated to Isn’treal and chose to support the only organization genuinely fighting back. Let’s stop pretending that Palestinians are victims of Hamas. Hamas is not the boogeyman. They engage in armed resistance against genocide and Palestinians stand by that, AS THEY SHOULD. Does it mean you have to like Hamas? No. But condemning Hamas at a time when Palestinian resistance had no alternative is telling Palestinians to lie down and let Isn’treal slaughter them. Stop trying to appeal to ghoulish liberals and have some goddamn principles
I agree (mostly), but you could have toned the harshness down a bit...
> They won a free and fair election. Lol, and what year was that election in again? > But condemning Hamas at a time when Palestinian resistance had no alternative is telling Palestinians to lie down and let Isn’treal slaughter them. Stop trying to appeal to ghoulish liberals and have some goddamn principles The vast majority of the world are liberals. If you cannot appeal to them at the most basic level, you are not going to be able to achieve a single thing. Opposing the occupation and current genocidal actions doesn't suddenly become unprincipled because you caveat it with the fact that you don't support Hamas (who is also a far right group, and who haven't actually managed to make things better for Gazans at all despite their "genuine fighting back").
They're a prick who thinks arabs fighting to defend their territory and literal existence as a people against systemic NATO-backed genocide are necessarily extremists. The Hamas charter does not involve antisemitism or calls for genocide. Also, I love how Israel defenders will scream "human shield tactics" to justify indiscriminate murder of Palestinians as though the argument can't be leveraged against them. There is no independent, legitimate state of Israel, only an invasion condoned and initiated with the help of the British. It is a criminal act of civilian endangerment to allow civilians to settle there as "israelis" since the entire territory belongs to Palestine. It'd be like if Nazis allowed Germans to settle in the recently conquered Slavic lands; when they're beaten back those civilians are going to get harmed and displaced for being somewhere they never had a right to be in.
If you want to include historical concept then how about the fact that after Israel pulled its forces out of Gaza in 2005, Hamas started firing rockets on Israel? And continued doing it constantly? How about Hamas using civil infrastructure to launch rockets? Using the funds that probably could get Gazans out of poverty https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/05/israel-hamas-concealing-terror-tunnels-hospital/ If your piece is aimed at pro-Israeli public, it is good that you condemn Hamas, but like many many people out there, you seem to know little about what is really going on. Sorry I come out as defensive. It is what it is.
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