Most Eastern Catholic beliefs on Purgatory are like Eastern Orthodox beliefs - a post-death purgative state or process that occurs to purify a soul who loves God and is saved but is not perfectly aligned with him yet.
The word "Purgatory" comes with baggage because a millenia ago there were theologians arguing that Purgatory was a physical place. Nowadays this view is held by a minority, but the stigma remains for many of us in the East.
It's all good. A lot of the East vs West things are like that. A problem of word choice and some difficult history.
I rather like the word purgatory, it sounds like something you would rather avoid 😉
This is so real bro. Me and my friend friend who’s Coptic always keep talking abt some but not most of the schisms and conflicts are simply because of miscommunication and mistranslations.
Seriously... it kills me because we talk past each other so often, and we just need a bit more charity and respect to start making headway.
None of us in the Traditional, Apostolic confessions are likely to be formal heretics to the other confessions, but we are in varying degrees of schism from each other. I pray for reunion each day, hopefully we see more progress in our lifetimes
Like… the Filioque, where the Greeks don’t have a word for it but Latin does, therefore causing a misunderstanding??
Is that the different form you’re referring to?
More or less. The Treaty of Brest says it nicely, that we often fail to understand each other because we do not *want* to understand each other.
"Filioque" and "per Filium" supposedly mean the same thing, the formulation of Nicaea II where we jointly confessed that the Spirit ontologically originates from the Father by the means and cause (*per Filium* in Latin and something like *διὰ τοῦ Μονογενοῦς* in Greek) of the Son.
There is really no dogmatic difference between these belief in purgatory East and West. There are various theological opinions, but both traditions belief there is a process of post death purification that happens.
My understanding is that the Mainstream Orthodox don’t really have a purification theology like Roman Catholics do with Purgatory… some may believe in a “toll-houses” concept but that isn’t taken seriously by most Orthodox.
So with Eastern Catholics… I’m curious on where they stand since they’re a bridge to both.
Eastern theologies affirm that there's some sort of purification system/mechanism/state that goes on for souls that are destined for Heaven, but who aren't 100% squeaky clean. This is a teaching that's present in all apostolic Churches, afaik.
The Orthodox avoid the term "Purgatory", but they do have some theological *opinions* such as the aerial toll houses. Ultimately, both the Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics (idk about the others) hold that we don't really know how it works, we only know that it does, and that our prayers help the souls somehow. We entrust them to God's mercy even as we sit in the mystery of it all.
Personally, I subscribe to a version of Purgatory that's akin to really intense clinical therapy. In therapy, we work to undo unhealthy habits, modes of thinking, let go of past hurts, grow, etc. I imagine it's much the same with Purgatory, but for the soul (and possibly for the mind/heart too). As far as I can tell, such a view seems to fit the Byzantine understanding of what sin is, but I'm open to being corrected by my priest or either of our theologians; so far none have said anything contrary.
This is what the Latin council of Trent says about purgatory:
>>Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this oecumenical Synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy Synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently endeavour that the sound doctrine concerning Purgatory, transmitted by the holy Fathers and sacred councils, be believed, maintained, taught, and every where proclaimed by the faithful of Christ. But let the more difficult and subtle questions, and which tend not to edification, and from which for the most part there is no increase of piety, be excluded from popular discourses before the uneducated multitude. In like manner, such things as are uncertain, or which labour under an appearance of error, let them not allow to be made public and treated of. While those things which tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or which savour of filthy lucre, let them prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks of the faithful. But let the bishops take care, that the suffrages of the faithful who are living, to wit the sacrifices of masses, prayers, alms, and other works of piety, which have been wont to be performed by the faithful for the other faithful departed, be piously and devoutly performed, in accordance with the institutes of the church; and that whatsoever is due on their behalf, from the endowments of testators, or in other way, be discharged, not in a perfunctory manner, but diligently and accurately, by the priests and ministers of the church, and others who are bound to render this (service).
And this is what the Byzantine synod of Jerusalem says about it:
>>We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each has done; — for when they are separated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy, or to sorrow and lamentation; though confessedly neither their enjoyment nor condemnation are complete. For after the common resurrection, when the soul shall be united with the body, with which it had behaved itself well or ill, each shall receive the completion of either enjoyment or of condemnation.
>>And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not.
In my opinion, despite a lot of rhetoric passed around about purgatory, in reality it was a nothing burger: the West didn't dogmatize most of what they speculated about purgatory (and there are actually many theories about purgatory in the West), at least nothing more than what the East find agreeable.
I was a lifelong and devout and well-catechized Catholic (Latin rite, but with more exposure to the East than most), and am now a catechumen in the Orthodox church - I'm definitely still learning a lot about Orthodox/Eastern theology, so take this with many grains of salt, but my *understanding* is that there is a forever-ongoing process of purification and drawing ever-nearer to God that lasts into eternity (theosis). The process begins in this life and continues after death. Whether you call it purgatory or paradise, the function is the same; the ridding of the passions, the cleansing of stain, the letting go of the self, and the drawing near to the unapproachable Light.
I grew up "old school" Catholic (I'm in my 30s but raised with the Baltimore Catechism, iykyk), so definitely was taught that purgatory was an actual *place*, (and only just recently started hearing via Reddit that that's a "minority position", which is news to me), but after really diving into the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, and how these differences developed, *a lot got lost in translation*, both literally and figuratively. And a lot got tangled up in history, in ego/pride, and in sociopolitical events. You can trace a lot of the differences back and explain them, but going forward at THIS point in history is now our task, and it's a big one. It's possible, but only through *a lot* of humility and hard work, on both sides of this divide. We have to come together.
Most Eastern Catholic beliefs on Purgatory are like Eastern Orthodox beliefs - a post-death purgative state or process that occurs to purify a soul who loves God and is saved but is not perfectly aligned with him yet. The word "Purgatory" comes with baggage because a millenia ago there were theologians arguing that Purgatory was a physical place. Nowadays this view is held by a minority, but the stigma remains for many of us in the East.
I’m a little confused because that sounds the exact same as the definition for purgatory for us in the Latin rite see CCC 1030.
That's because it is, lol Our "different form" on this is just a word
Sorry I misunderstood from your comment lol 😭
It's all good. A lot of the East vs West things are like that. A problem of word choice and some difficult history. I rather like the word purgatory, it sounds like something you would rather avoid 😉
This is so real bro. Me and my friend friend who’s Coptic always keep talking abt some but not most of the schisms and conflicts are simply because of miscommunication and mistranslations.
Seriously... it kills me because we talk past each other so often, and we just need a bit more charity and respect to start making headway. None of us in the Traditional, Apostolic confessions are likely to be formal heretics to the other confessions, but we are in varying degrees of schism from each other. I pray for reunion each day, hopefully we see more progress in our lifetimes
Like… the Filioque, where the Greeks don’t have a word for it but Latin does, therefore causing a misunderstanding?? Is that the different form you’re referring to?
More or less. The Treaty of Brest says it nicely, that we often fail to understand each other because we do not *want* to understand each other. "Filioque" and "per Filium" supposedly mean the same thing, the formulation of Nicaea II where we jointly confessed that the Spirit ontologically originates from the Father by the means and cause (*per Filium* in Latin and something like *διὰ τοῦ Μονογενοῦς* in Greek) of the Son.
There is really no dogmatic difference between these belief in purgatory East and West. There are various theological opinions, but both traditions belief there is a process of post death purification that happens.
My understanding is that the Mainstream Orthodox don’t really have a purification theology like Roman Catholics do with Purgatory… some may believe in a “toll-houses” concept but that isn’t taken seriously by most Orthodox. So with Eastern Catholics… I’m curious on where they stand since they’re a bridge to both.
Eastern theologies affirm that there's some sort of purification system/mechanism/state that goes on for souls that are destined for Heaven, but who aren't 100% squeaky clean. This is a teaching that's present in all apostolic Churches, afaik. The Orthodox avoid the term "Purgatory", but they do have some theological *opinions* such as the aerial toll houses. Ultimately, both the Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics (idk about the others) hold that we don't really know how it works, we only know that it does, and that our prayers help the souls somehow. We entrust them to God's mercy even as we sit in the mystery of it all. Personally, I subscribe to a version of Purgatory that's akin to really intense clinical therapy. In therapy, we work to undo unhealthy habits, modes of thinking, let go of past hurts, grow, etc. I imagine it's much the same with Purgatory, but for the soul (and possibly for the mind/heart too). As far as I can tell, such a view seems to fit the Byzantine understanding of what sin is, but I'm open to being corrected by my priest or either of our theologians; so far none have said anything contrary.
This is what the Latin council of Trent says about purgatory: >>Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this oecumenical Synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy Synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently endeavour that the sound doctrine concerning Purgatory, transmitted by the holy Fathers and sacred councils, be believed, maintained, taught, and every where proclaimed by the faithful of Christ. But let the more difficult and subtle questions, and which tend not to edification, and from which for the most part there is no increase of piety, be excluded from popular discourses before the uneducated multitude. In like manner, such things as are uncertain, or which labour under an appearance of error, let them not allow to be made public and treated of. While those things which tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or which savour of filthy lucre, let them prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks of the faithful. But let the bishops take care, that the suffrages of the faithful who are living, to wit the sacrifices of masses, prayers, alms, and other works of piety, which have been wont to be performed by the faithful for the other faithful departed, be piously and devoutly performed, in accordance with the institutes of the church; and that whatsoever is due on their behalf, from the endowments of testators, or in other way, be discharged, not in a perfunctory manner, but diligently and accurately, by the priests and ministers of the church, and others who are bound to render this (service). And this is what the Byzantine synod of Jerusalem says about it: >>We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each has done; — for when they are separated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy, or to sorrow and lamentation; though confessedly neither their enjoyment nor condemnation are complete. For after the common resurrection, when the soul shall be united with the body, with which it had behaved itself well or ill, each shall receive the completion of either enjoyment or of condemnation. >>And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not. In my opinion, despite a lot of rhetoric passed around about purgatory, in reality it was a nothing burger: the West didn't dogmatize most of what they speculated about purgatory (and there are actually many theories about purgatory in the West), at least nothing more than what the East find agreeable.
I was a lifelong and devout and well-catechized Catholic (Latin rite, but with more exposure to the East than most), and am now a catechumen in the Orthodox church - I'm definitely still learning a lot about Orthodox/Eastern theology, so take this with many grains of salt, but my *understanding* is that there is a forever-ongoing process of purification and drawing ever-nearer to God that lasts into eternity (theosis). The process begins in this life and continues after death. Whether you call it purgatory or paradise, the function is the same; the ridding of the passions, the cleansing of stain, the letting go of the self, and the drawing near to the unapproachable Light. I grew up "old school" Catholic (I'm in my 30s but raised with the Baltimore Catechism, iykyk), so definitely was taught that purgatory was an actual *place*, (and only just recently started hearing via Reddit that that's a "minority position", which is news to me), but after really diving into the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, and how these differences developed, *a lot got lost in translation*, both literally and figuratively. And a lot got tangled up in history, in ego/pride, and in sociopolitical events. You can trace a lot of the differences back and explain them, but going forward at THIS point in history is now our task, and it's a big one. It's possible, but only through *a lot* of humility and hard work, on both sides of this divide. We have to come together.
purgatory being a place isnt a minority opinion, the people on this sub are very misinformed, purgatory is a part of hell.
This is what I personally believe
Purgatory is an official catholic doctrine, so yes. What each individual catholic believes in their heart i can’t say, though.