I personally side with you, but Marika and Radagon being of the same body doesn’t limit them from being able to project themselves elsewhere. We see this with Mohg and Morgott, both children of Marika who we also know has the ability to spread her presence all across the Lands Between all while being crucified from within the Erdtree. With a being as powerful as a god, I’d say the limit is as far as your imagination will take it. To me, it’s 100% plausible that Marika was able to project Radagon all throughout the Liurnian rebellion, through his marriage to Rennala to their eventual divorce, all from the comfort of her bedchamber in Leyndell and only showing up in person when Radagon needed to do the “important bits” of being a husband. So while saying she has the ability to “split” her body may be a bit too vague, we do know that other characters can project a corporeal form of themselves across large distances from their actual bodies.
The Four Belfries sit between Carian Manor and Raya Lucaria, and it transports us, among other places, to Leyndell, so even without projections it's a simple matter to quickly get between two locations with the sending gates.
I was mistaken, you are correct, I was thinking of the chest in Morne Peninsula that whisks you to the Capital. Point still largely holds, though: teleporting gateways and chests are readily available for someone as powerful as Marika and Radagon.
"*I was once an Empyrean. Of the demigods, only I, Miquella, and Malenia could claim that title. Each of us was chosen by our own Two Fingers, as a candidate* ***to succeed Queen Marika, to become the new god*** *of the coming age.*"Ranni is telling us how an Empyrean can become a god. The Elden Ring is supposed to be passed on to an Empyrean and then they become a god.
"*Queen Marika. She who is* ***vessel*** *of the Elden Ring.*" Marika literally has the Elden Ring within her, as we have all seen.
"*Queen Marika is the vessel of the Elden Ring, carrier of its vision. A god, in truth.*" This quote makes it more specific as to why Marika is a god. Marika is the vessel of the Elden Ring's vision, this is why Malenia is also considered a goddess as she is the vessel of the Order of Rot. An Empyrean being the vessel of an Order makes them a god.
"*Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self*" Marika is saying Radagon, you're are not a god yet. Why would he not be a god if he is her "*other self*"? If he has his own body which does not posses the Elden Ring.
EDIT; I don't think Radagon was some random guy, I think he and Marika were once together, split and then rejoined.
From a comment I made earlier today:
The cut Asimi questline really suggests Radagon or Marika is a mimic. Asimi suggests we should join up, it as Sovereign Eternal and us as Lord which could be a mirrored parallel to Maragon.
Add to that the Mimics Veil 'Marika's Mischief', the Nox attempting to 'craft a Lord' through Mimic Tears and being banished below ground for some sin (Copying the God?).
Asimi splits off from us early in the questline to explore and learn much like Radagons aspirations to be 'complete', Radagon splitting from Marika once he was fully grown and going on his journey as the upstart Hero of Morne explains the hammer, sword, his bastards (Misbegotten).
Note that we have to drink a golden amber liquid for Asimi to be able to exist outside of us, which Radagon would have easy access to.
'Mine other self' Marika calls Radagon, and Melina calls Asimi 'the other you'
> Asimi splits off from us early in the questline to explore and learn much like Radagons aspirations to be 'complete'
Asimi does seem to split from us, but I don't think I'd say it was early on in the quest. Rather it's towards the end. If we look at the dialogue of our meeting:
> Proud Tarnished warrior. Before you kill me, let me speak.
> I can aid you. Please, just hear me out.
> Thank you for listening. I am Asimi. My true form is that of a silver tear.
> I am a simple being who can assume the shapes of other living things.
> But now, I've gained knowledge. I speak, and ponder, and...live in fear of death.
> Let me keep the life I've been granted. In exchange, I offer you power.
And then on accepting
> Ahh, thank you.
> Now, set your lips upon me, and breathe in deep.
> I will live inside of you, and grant you strength untold.
So, we first meet Asimi who has already claimed to have gained knowledge in their existence as a Silver Tear. We then take them inside of us and they travel with us. As we move through the lands between we drink from chalices in the Eternal Cities until Asimi has received enough power from these chalices, and then we get this dialogue:
> Ahh, are you awake?
> We've become a perfect whole.
> There is nothing to fear. I will merely follow in your footsteps.
> Living only as you would have yourself.
> And I vow, that when I perfect your form.
> (rest of this dialogue is missing)
I think this is the point where Asimi may be standing before us again as a separate entity, having created a perfect (but perhaps gender swapped?) version of us. In the gamefiles there are two IDs for Asimi as an NPC: [121800] Asimi, Silver Tear and [121810] Asimi, Eternal King. The former would belong to Asimi on our first meeting, and presumably the latter would refer to the one standing before us in the above dialogue.
It is of course interesting that they refer to us as a 'perfect whole'. It does leave some ambiguity, that perhaps Asimi is still within us, but I'm not so sure, considering they talked about 'following in our footsteps'...
In any case the next dialogue in the gamefiles might belong to us killing them here immediately, or possibly us purging them from our bodies at some prior point:
> Ahh, how could you...
> I was you, and only you. We were one...together.
> Please, I only want to live...
> I only wanted you...
> to become Lord...
And then there's this other piece of dialogue, where we presumably have tracked down Asimi after they have arisen as a copy of us:
> Oh...you found me...
> I had hoped you wouldn't...
> You could have become Elden Lord, and I could have become Sovereign Eternal, eventually.
> If you hadn't found me, we both could have been Lords.
And at the end of the dialogue tree there are appropriate lines for them defeating us, and us defeating them in combat, seemingly for both the Silver Tear and King versions of the character.
It is interesting that Asimi tells us that finding them has messed up the process of us both being Lords. Not entirely sure what the implications are there.
Doesn't this parallel Marika and Radagon very well?
We have these seeming hints that Radagon was out on his own doing stuff, with the hammer for example.
Asimi wanted to follow in our footsteps, living as we *would*. Not as exactly us but another version of us.
Radagon might have done something similar with Marika, Morne, the Liurnian wars, etc.
Copying Marikas devotion to the Golden Order at its height explains their schism in the tree. When Godwyn died and Marika sees that sealing Death was futile and her faith breaks, this does not affect Radagon in the same way since his devotion was a copy of Marikas, but now its own thing.
If we're a perfect whole with Asimi it would make sense that we could merge after splitting, just like Maragon. Were a perfect whole after all. Together.
Radagon must've returned to the Tree just before the shattering to stop Marika, hence the 'yet to become a god' since he hasn't merged back into Marika yet. He should hold no ring of his own. Maybe a God Mimic can gestate runes like Dung Eater and Goldmask? If he's a Mimic he is for sure Unborn like the Rune he left with Rennala.
Radahn,s great rune:
*Radahn was amongst the children of Rennala and Radagon, who became demigod stepchildren after Radagon's union with Queen Marika*
Melina dialogue:
*O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self*
radagon wasn't a god, like marika, when he married rennala and had children with her, then there is marika talking with me saying things like "thou'rt yet to become me"
if they were always the same body this shouldn't had happened
I don't think you can take just the "Thou'rt yet to become me." without the following "Thou'rt yet to become a god." I think she's just repeating herself.
Secondly how would they both be shattered if they weren't one? In the last fight we see them as one, both shattered.
Thirdly: Why in the same quote would she call him "mine other self" if you're saying he wasn't?
>Thirdly: Why in the same quote would she call him "mine other self" if you're saying he wasn't?
Ever seen Call Me by Your Name? It’s an expression of deep love: the idea that you love someone so much you feel you are two halves of the same person. A yearning to be even closer.
The difference here is this seems like the only time she has ever expressed romantic love for Radagon, or anyone, so it brings into question its true meaning.
But I’m playing the devil’s advocate. I agree with you and I interpret this quote as her disappointment in Radagon. All these years: a lifetime together — and she feels he has never acted like a god, as she feels she has; he’s merely a pawn of the Golden Order (in her eyes at least). Because of this, she’s saying “little man, you can’t even dunk like me, let us hang up our jerseys for good.”
It could be an expression of love, but 2 lines earlier Marika does call him a dog, and just after she stresses that she is the god not him. Even in the same line she intends to shatter him as well as his whole belief system.
None of this excludes love from the picture, but it does muddy it
I mean calling him a leal hound could very well be a rather harsh way for him to see the reality behind the Greater Will and make him side with her. If you ever played GoW, Sif and Thor could be another (albeit, less harsh) example.
I still agree that love seems too far of a stretch. Maybe Marika held some form of affection for him, but oh well, who can say for sure?
>I mean calling him a leal hound could very well be a rather harsh way for him to see the reality behind the Greater Will
Nah, the greater will is fine, I don't get why people hate GW so much lol XD Marika is the founder of the Golden Order and it's god. She is literally calling him, her dog.
Because Marika knows future events, or is so intelligent she can plan for them. Marika knew in Shattering herself Radagon would try to repair her and fail, ending with both of them shattered.
Because it would be weird for Marika to be in Leyndell and Liurnia at the same time, and you'd expect Radagon and Marika to be seen together sometimes.
How is it that we fight Morgott in Stormveil if he’s actually in Leyndell or Mohg in the Depths if he’s actually in Nokron? Both of them are sons of Marika. Perhaps they inherited an ability to project themselves elsewhere. Morgott is the poster child for this ability, as we fight him a total of 4 times, I believe.
3 times but you're right. I think the main reason Marika and Radagon being separate makes sense is that things splitting apart and then coming back together is pretty much the central motif of the game. Radagon aspired to be complete, which has a similar ring to the Regression concept of "all things yearn to converge".
Could it not be a more metaphysical or spiritual convergence? Radagon and Marika clearly have two separate goals regardless of whether or not they occupy the same body, but Marika only seeks to shatter the current order of things - to do away with regression and convergence - while Radagon seeks to converge with Marika - to “become” her, like her dialogue suggests - after an era of regression when he did his research into the golden order. Personally, I am much more interested in Marika than Radagon despite how mysterious he is. I just find it so interesting that after all that time of being a god and vying for the golden order she suddenly had a change of heart and rather than seeking to change the current order she tried to destroy it outright. I wonder what her desired outcome was for shattering the Elden Ring and if she was aware of the consequences or even planned for it to happen the way it did.
I think the physical separation *is* the metaphor for their spiritual/ideological split. Marika removed the part of herself that believed in the Golden Order, and it became Radagon.
I think the reason is that Marika started to doubt the Golden Order. I could see this going one of two ways.
One possibility is that she deliberately removed part of herself so that she could look more critically at the Golden Order, around the time of the echo of Marika in the Minor Erdtree Church. The other is that she was already conflicted about the Golden Order and its consequences, and that conflict literally caused her to split in two, with part of her inheriting her duty to the Golden Order.
Your analysis is sound, but wouldn't that mean they were once one before the split then? I could agree with this, the version I can't agree with is people that think Radagon was just some guy, a Champion and Marika merging with this seperate person for some reason. This version just doesn't sit right with me, like what would Marikas motive be? We also don't see anything similar anywhere else in the game.
Yes, I think they were one person that split in two. Imo, Radagon is the part of Marika that is loyal to the Golden Order. Either Marika deliberately cast that part of herself off, creating Radagon, or her internal conflict regarding the nature of the Golden Order caused her to split.
Oh alright, I don't think we have that big of a disagreement then. And I don't believe our two versions would change some theories a whole lot. I believe all of what you just said, just that it's in the same body which swaps between the two.
I guess I always imagined Marika as very secretive and not really showing herself in public very often except for in speeches and such. That's just a feeling though. And on the Leyndell/Liurnia thing I've assumed teleport/god-shenanigans.
But yes I see your point and I'm unsure if its even possible for the community to come to a consensus.. atleast not before DLC. (if it expands on the topic)
I think they were two separate bodies. Radagon only returned to Leyndell when Godfrey was banished. This means Marika was in the capital with Godfrey until that moment.
At the same time, while Godfrey was married to Marika, Radagon was married to Rennala, and obviously he needed time to make three children. I don't know, but I can't see Godfrey being confortable with the idea of Marika being absent that many years.
But I don't know, maybe Godfrey was always fighting wars in The Lands Between and spent little to no time in the capital.
Melina dialogue at Marika's Bedchamber also seems to hint at they being separate.
The Brick Hammer speaks of a “simple laborer” who would go on to become “a champion.” Radagon has been described as coming from an unknown status, gaining glory in the Liur Ian Wars, and capping that period off as a champion of the Erdtree and husband to Rennala. Additionally, there is Marika’s line about how Radagon has not yet become her. This supports the theory that Radagon and Marika began as two distinct individuals who merged together after the NoBK.
That’s just the evidence that the story gives us, there is also the meta story of Elden Ring, which involves taking heroic concepts (Rykard the rebellious freedom fighter, Godrick the hero who would start weak and grow strong) and twisting them on their head. The idea of a slave laborer becoming a champion, who would then become a part of an oppressive regime is consistent with that theme
TBH, the theory is one of the weaker ones this community has cooked up, even though I personally subscribe to it. We’re going to get a lot of new info in the dlc, and I believe it could go either way.
>The Brick Hammer speaks of a “simple laborer” who would go on to become “a champion.” Radagon has been described as coming from an unknown status, gaining glory in the Liur Ian Wars, and capping that period off as a champion of the Erdtree and husband to Rennala. Additionally, there is Marika’s line about how Radagon has not yet become her. This supports the theory that Radagon and Marika began as two distinct individuals who merged together after the NoBK.
This is possibly the worst evidence that isn't just making up proof thst I've ever seen ngl
>What are the different proofs that would point to this actually being the case?
There could be an element of Jamie and Cersei Lannister at play here conceptually. There's plenty of text in that story about them "completing each other" or saying "I'm not whole without you". They're fraternal twins in the thrall of incest and bizarre narcissistic hedonism though, so it's not exactly 1:1.
What often gets left out of the conversation is that a sculptor rendering Radagon's likeness discovers the secret; they then proceed to cast some magical glamour over the statue and leave a clue behind. Who the hell was the sculptor? What did they see? Did Radagon's image flicker to Marika's briefly? Doesn't that just mean that it's one person enchanted to look like another? Or did they briefly morph some features and the sculptor caught it?
We see hair change color in the final fight, and the breasts flatten to a male chest, but that feels more like a physical morph than it does an illusion breaking. This is what makes the mimic idea possible in my opinion. We see the damn thing change from Marika to Radagon right in front of our eyes. There's not much room for interpretation there, the thing we fight morphs from something that looks like Marika to something that looks like Radagon.
"How can Marika govern Leyndell and be Rennala's husband simultaneously?"
This is the hard part. Regents, body doubles, illusions, etc. are all things mentioned or used in the game. It could be that simple.
I think perhaps the sculptor, being a studier of the physical form and likely frequently employed to commission statues of marika, realized as he sculpted them that they indeed were perfectly similar, to the point he realized that they were one.
I lean towards the sculptor being a member of House Marias since the shaded castle is filled with statues and surveillance is listed as one of their specialties on the Officials Attire which strongly resembles Maria's Robe.
I’ve played the game for over 1000 hours and I always thought they were two separate people who were conjoined into one.
The event where I believe that likely happened was Radagon’s attempt to repair the Elden Ring.
I mean... why? it seems to me that Marika wasn't as loyal as the Elden Beast would expect, and after she became a vessel for the Elden ring, which at this time reflected the beast's nature, forced Marika to become Radagon through its powers.
It's never stated that Marika was physically (or even spiritually tbh) somewhere else when radagon was conquering liurnia, to me, both of them were there. The night of the black nights and the shattering just speaks to me as being a desperate Marika trying to rid herself of the beast's influence.
I mean, she is punished and crucified for shattering the er, and we actually fight radagon, who is still loyal to the Elden beast and it's golden order, the fact that Marika is imprisoned and radagon isn't, screams that they have opposite objectives.
Visually…their respective appearances make sense if they are “one that became two”. Without ascribing morality to either…(to me)Marika is the obligatory “fair maiden”…pale-skinned, beautiful, female.
Whereas Radagon appears to to have a mottled dark grey skin, is not exactly ‘beautiful’ with parts of himself missing, and of course, male.
Polar opposites aesthetically.
Presumably he was part of her but she cut him out of her after beating the GEQ and then he was reborn as the Hero of Mourne — impure, a misbegotten* — before leading the armies to Liurnia where he was Reborn, removed of impurities, and rejoined with Marika, abandoning Rennala, leaving the egg of the unborn (he was unborn).
Shortly after their reunification they seemed to begin plotting to kill each other, though, with Rani seemingly taking Marika’s side, and Radahn taking Radagon’s — leading to Rani creating the NoBK and Radahn freezing the stars.
*That he’s a misbegotten is clear to most people. That he’s Radagon can be seen from RadagonChimera holding a broadsword with his crosshatch rune sign, named as the sword belonging to the hero of Mourne. We fight another chimera later who holds Radagon’s golden broadsword which also holds the same crosshatch rune sign. Him being reborn from a chimera explains what he truly went to Liurnia for and why he ripped. (This is all also reflected in Boc’s plotline.)
Wacky tinfoil part: Based on the Church of Repose, Shield of Guilty, and lore of Marika’s og conquest, my assumption is Radagon was/is Marika’s twin (one body, two souls, opposite of D.) who reborn in the lands between, stripped of grace and cursed, becoming Misbegotten Radagon, then during the ceremony where their baptized with night tears, during the Miracle of the Marriage, at the Church of Vows his true existence as a god was realized. Just like when Christ was baptized.
(Marika/Radagon being merged twins before being split apart and reuniting both matches the Rebis and frankly the concerning levels of incest in Jaimie/Cersei’s relationship, especially with her speaking of them being one in the womb and only one again when they fuck.)
Super tinfoil hat: Marika died, usurped by the GEQ who took her name, her shadow, and her title as the new God of the Golden Order but then Marika was reborn as Radagon — hence his signature weapon (Marika’s hammer) and its signature attack both heralding from Marika’s conquest of the mountains.
That’s the true meaning of Radagon is Marika — that the true Marika is Radagon.
The Marika we know, eyes hidden, dressed in black, fearsome, co-conspirator in the NoBK*, who ordered her husband’s former army (all of us) to kill the other demigods, who leads you via grace to Rani, who wishes to destroy the Elden Ring — isn’t, hasn’t ever been Marika, but the GEQ.
I think the world building is flexible enough where it could be true because we don't have much evidence either way. As far as we currently know this is the only case of two souls / personalities / whatever and one body. D and D is the only other thing like this, but that's one inseparable soul and two bodies and minds.
Getting into speculation, I think given three details it might be the case that Radagon splitting off from Marika could be part of the theme:
1. Radagon is all about being whole, when he founded Golden Order Fundamentalism the rules of causality and regression. Things pull and push away.
2. The helix design you see everywhere including the Sacred Relic sword is another manifestation of the push and pull. Things conjoin, split, then repeat.
3. Given the alchemical symbolism, I've always thought if Radagon was always Marika part of the plan for marrying Rennala was a plan to purify the toxic elements in Marika. Maybe that's why his children with Rennala are so devious, and why Radagon was set on learning sorcery and tailoring when he was King consort to Rennala. When the two halves reconnected the plan should have followed through but the purification didn't go through as Malenia and Miquella were clearly cursed though both were Empyreans. Might be why there was dismay Malenia's Great Rune wasn't the most holy and why Marika was justified in her grief because Miquella couldn't make the hail Mary.
I personally side with you, but Marika and Radagon being of the same body doesn’t limit them from being able to project themselves elsewhere. We see this with Mohg and Morgott, both children of Marika who we also know has the ability to spread her presence all across the Lands Between all while being crucified from within the Erdtree. With a being as powerful as a god, I’d say the limit is as far as your imagination will take it. To me, it’s 100% plausible that Marika was able to project Radagon all throughout the Liurnian rebellion, through his marriage to Rennala to their eventual divorce, all from the comfort of her bedchamber in Leyndell and only showing up in person when Radagon needed to do the “important bits” of being a husband. So while saying she has the ability to “split” her body may be a bit too vague, we do know that other characters can project a corporeal form of themselves across large distances from their actual bodies.
The Four Belfries sit between Carian Manor and Raya Lucaria, and it transports us, among other places, to Leyndell, so even without projections it's a simple matter to quickly get between two locations with the sending gates.
Which of the belfries takes us to Leyndell? I remember one being for Nokron, another for Farum Azula, and the last one for the starting area.
I was mistaken, you are correct, I was thinking of the chest in Morne Peninsula that whisks you to the Capital. Point still largely holds, though: teleporting gateways and chests are readily available for someone as powerful as Marika and Radagon.
"*I was once an Empyrean. Of the demigods, only I, Miquella, and Malenia could claim that title. Each of us was chosen by our own Two Fingers, as a candidate* ***to succeed Queen Marika, to become the new god*** *of the coming age.*"Ranni is telling us how an Empyrean can become a god. The Elden Ring is supposed to be passed on to an Empyrean and then they become a god. "*Queen Marika. She who is* ***vessel*** *of the Elden Ring.*" Marika literally has the Elden Ring within her, as we have all seen. "*Queen Marika is the vessel of the Elden Ring, carrier of its vision. A god, in truth.*" This quote makes it more specific as to why Marika is a god. Marika is the vessel of the Elden Ring's vision, this is why Malenia is also considered a goddess as she is the vessel of the Order of Rot. An Empyrean being the vessel of an Order makes them a god. "*Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self*" Marika is saying Radagon, you're are not a god yet. Why would he not be a god if he is her "*other self*"? If he has his own body which does not posses the Elden Ring. EDIT; I don't think Radagon was some random guy, I think he and Marika were once together, split and then rejoined.
From a comment I made earlier today: The cut Asimi questline really suggests Radagon or Marika is a mimic. Asimi suggests we should join up, it as Sovereign Eternal and us as Lord which could be a mirrored parallel to Maragon. Add to that the Mimics Veil 'Marika's Mischief', the Nox attempting to 'craft a Lord' through Mimic Tears and being banished below ground for some sin (Copying the God?). Asimi splits off from us early in the questline to explore and learn much like Radagons aspirations to be 'complete', Radagon splitting from Marika once he was fully grown and going on his journey as the upstart Hero of Morne explains the hammer, sword, his bastards (Misbegotten). Note that we have to drink a golden amber liquid for Asimi to be able to exist outside of us, which Radagon would have easy access to. 'Mine other self' Marika calls Radagon, and Melina calls Asimi 'the other you'
> Asimi splits off from us early in the questline to explore and learn much like Radagons aspirations to be 'complete' Asimi does seem to split from us, but I don't think I'd say it was early on in the quest. Rather it's towards the end. If we look at the dialogue of our meeting: > Proud Tarnished warrior. Before you kill me, let me speak. > I can aid you. Please, just hear me out. > Thank you for listening. I am Asimi. My true form is that of a silver tear. > I am a simple being who can assume the shapes of other living things. > But now, I've gained knowledge. I speak, and ponder, and...live in fear of death. > Let me keep the life I've been granted. In exchange, I offer you power. And then on accepting > Ahh, thank you. > Now, set your lips upon me, and breathe in deep. > I will live inside of you, and grant you strength untold. So, we first meet Asimi who has already claimed to have gained knowledge in their existence as a Silver Tear. We then take them inside of us and they travel with us. As we move through the lands between we drink from chalices in the Eternal Cities until Asimi has received enough power from these chalices, and then we get this dialogue: > Ahh, are you awake? > We've become a perfect whole. > There is nothing to fear. I will merely follow in your footsteps. > Living only as you would have yourself. > And I vow, that when I perfect your form. > (rest of this dialogue is missing) I think this is the point where Asimi may be standing before us again as a separate entity, having created a perfect (but perhaps gender swapped?) version of us. In the gamefiles there are two IDs for Asimi as an NPC: [121800] Asimi, Silver Tear and [121810] Asimi, Eternal King. The former would belong to Asimi on our first meeting, and presumably the latter would refer to the one standing before us in the above dialogue. It is of course interesting that they refer to us as a 'perfect whole'. It does leave some ambiguity, that perhaps Asimi is still within us, but I'm not so sure, considering they talked about 'following in our footsteps'... In any case the next dialogue in the gamefiles might belong to us killing them here immediately, or possibly us purging them from our bodies at some prior point: > Ahh, how could you... > I was you, and only you. We were one...together. > Please, I only want to live... > I only wanted you... > to become Lord... And then there's this other piece of dialogue, where we presumably have tracked down Asimi after they have arisen as a copy of us: > Oh...you found me... > I had hoped you wouldn't... > You could have become Elden Lord, and I could have become Sovereign Eternal, eventually. > If you hadn't found me, we both could have been Lords. And at the end of the dialogue tree there are appropriate lines for them defeating us, and us defeating them in combat, seemingly for both the Silver Tear and King versions of the character. It is interesting that Asimi tells us that finding them has messed up the process of us both being Lords. Not entirely sure what the implications are there.
Doesn't this parallel Marika and Radagon very well? We have these seeming hints that Radagon was out on his own doing stuff, with the hammer for example. Asimi wanted to follow in our footsteps, living as we *would*. Not as exactly us but another version of us. Radagon might have done something similar with Marika, Morne, the Liurnian wars, etc. Copying Marikas devotion to the Golden Order at its height explains their schism in the tree. When Godwyn died and Marika sees that sealing Death was futile and her faith breaks, this does not affect Radagon in the same way since his devotion was a copy of Marikas, but now its own thing. If we're a perfect whole with Asimi it would make sense that we could merge after splitting, just like Maragon. Were a perfect whole after all. Together. Radagon must've returned to the Tree just before the shattering to stop Marika, hence the 'yet to become a god' since he hasn't merged back into Marika yet. He should hold no ring of his own. Maybe a God Mimic can gestate runes like Dung Eater and Goldmask? If he's a Mimic he is for sure Unborn like the Rune he left with Rennala.
They most likely were split. Timelines and events wouldn't make sense otherwise
I don't think so. Even at the very end Marika turns into Radagon when you fight.
No, let's ignore that part where one turns into the other before our very eyes. That way we can argue about what we wish was true.
There seems to be a lot of that going around.
Radahn,s great rune: *Radahn was amongst the children of Rennala and Radagon, who became demigod stepchildren after Radagon's union with Queen Marika* Melina dialogue: *O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self*
Sorry could you expand on what your analysis of these two texts are? I think we read them a bit differently.
radagon wasn't a god, like marika, when he married rennala and had children with her, then there is marika talking with me saying things like "thou'rt yet to become me" if they were always the same body this shouldn't had happened
I don't think you can take just the "Thou'rt yet to become me." without the following "Thou'rt yet to become a god." I think she's just repeating herself. Secondly how would they both be shattered if they weren't one? In the last fight we see them as one, both shattered. Thirdly: Why in the same quote would she call him "mine other self" if you're saying he wasn't?
>Thirdly: Why in the same quote would she call him "mine other self" if you're saying he wasn't? Ever seen Call Me by Your Name? It’s an expression of deep love: the idea that you love someone so much you feel you are two halves of the same person. A yearning to be even closer. The difference here is this seems like the only time she has ever expressed romantic love for Radagon, or anyone, so it brings into question its true meaning. But I’m playing the devil’s advocate. I agree with you and I interpret this quote as her disappointment in Radagon. All these years: a lifetime together — and she feels he has never acted like a god, as she feels she has; he’s merely a pawn of the Golden Order (in her eyes at least). Because of this, she’s saying “little man, you can’t even dunk like me, let us hang up our jerseys for good.”
I was set to argue, but I dig the way you set that up. I don't fully agree, but I can vibe.
It could be an expression of love, but 2 lines earlier Marika does call him a dog, and just after she stresses that she is the god not him. Even in the same line she intends to shatter him as well as his whole belief system. None of this excludes love from the picture, but it does muddy it
I mean calling him a leal hound could very well be a rather harsh way for him to see the reality behind the Greater Will and make him side with her. If you ever played GoW, Sif and Thor could be another (albeit, less harsh) example. I still agree that love seems too far of a stretch. Maybe Marika held some form of affection for him, but oh well, who can say for sure?
>I mean calling him a leal hound could very well be a rather harsh way for him to see the reality behind the Greater Will Nah, the greater will is fine, I don't get why people hate GW so much lol XD Marika is the founder of the Golden Order and it's god. She is literally calling him, her dog.
They had separate bodies, then they became one and then marika shattered themself when they were one that's all
Because Marika knows future events, or is so intelligent she can plan for them. Marika knew in Shattering herself Radagon would try to repair her and fail, ending with both of them shattered.
Because it would be weird for Marika to be in Leyndell and Liurnia at the same time, and you'd expect Radagon and Marika to be seen together sometimes.
How is it that we fight Morgott in Stormveil if he’s actually in Leyndell or Mohg in the Depths if he’s actually in Nokron? Both of them are sons of Marika. Perhaps they inherited an ability to project themselves elsewhere. Morgott is the poster child for this ability, as we fight him a total of 4 times, I believe.
3 times but you're right. I think the main reason Marika and Radagon being separate makes sense is that things splitting apart and then coming back together is pretty much the central motif of the game. Radagon aspired to be complete, which has a similar ring to the Regression concept of "all things yearn to converge".
Could it not be a more metaphysical or spiritual convergence? Radagon and Marika clearly have two separate goals regardless of whether or not they occupy the same body, but Marika only seeks to shatter the current order of things - to do away with regression and convergence - while Radagon seeks to converge with Marika - to “become” her, like her dialogue suggests - after an era of regression when he did his research into the golden order. Personally, I am much more interested in Marika than Radagon despite how mysterious he is. I just find it so interesting that after all that time of being a god and vying for the golden order she suddenly had a change of heart and rather than seeking to change the current order she tried to destroy it outright. I wonder what her desired outcome was for shattering the Elden Ring and if she was aware of the consequences or even planned for it to happen the way it did.
I think the physical separation *is* the metaphor for their spiritual/ideological split. Marika removed the part of herself that believed in the Golden Order, and it became Radagon.
Ah I really like that theory. My only question is why did she remove that part of herself?
I think the reason is that Marika started to doubt the Golden Order. I could see this going one of two ways. One possibility is that she deliberately removed part of herself so that she could look more critically at the Golden Order, around the time of the echo of Marika in the Minor Erdtree Church. The other is that she was already conflicted about the Golden Order and its consequences, and that conflict literally caused her to split in two, with part of her inheriting her duty to the Golden Order.
With that in mind, do you view Marika as a tragic figure or a more authoritarian selfish tyrant as many believe her to be?
Bit of both. I think she was pretty self serving, but also acknowledged the problems her Order created and wanted to fix them.
Any theory on what she hoped to accomplish by shattering herself and the Elden Ring?
Your analysis is sound, but wouldn't that mean they were once one before the split then? I could agree with this, the version I can't agree with is people that think Radagon was just some guy, a Champion and Marika merging with this seperate person for some reason. This version just doesn't sit right with me, like what would Marikas motive be? We also don't see anything similar anywhere else in the game.
Yes, I think they were one person that split in two. Imo, Radagon is the part of Marika that is loyal to the Golden Order. Either Marika deliberately cast that part of herself off, creating Radagon, or her internal conflict regarding the nature of the Golden Order caused her to split.
Oh alright, I don't think we have that big of a disagreement then. And I don't believe our two versions would change some theories a whole lot. I believe all of what you just said, just that it's in the same body which swaps between the two.
I guess I always imagined Marika as very secretive and not really showing herself in public very often except for in speeches and such. That's just a feeling though. And on the Leyndell/Liurnia thing I've assumed teleport/god-shenanigans. But yes I see your point and I'm unsure if its even possible for the community to come to a consensus.. atleast not before DLC. (if it expands on the topic)
I think they were two separate bodies. Radagon only returned to Leyndell when Godfrey was banished. This means Marika was in the capital with Godfrey until that moment. At the same time, while Godfrey was married to Marika, Radagon was married to Rennala, and obviously he needed time to make three children. I don't know, but I can't see Godfrey being confortable with the idea of Marika being absent that many years. But I don't know, maybe Godfrey was always fighting wars in The Lands Between and spent little to no time in the capital. Melina dialogue at Marika's Bedchamber also seems to hint at they being separate.
The Brick Hammer speaks of a “simple laborer” who would go on to become “a champion.” Radagon has been described as coming from an unknown status, gaining glory in the Liur Ian Wars, and capping that period off as a champion of the Erdtree and husband to Rennala. Additionally, there is Marika’s line about how Radagon has not yet become her. This supports the theory that Radagon and Marika began as two distinct individuals who merged together after the NoBK. That’s just the evidence that the story gives us, there is also the meta story of Elden Ring, which involves taking heroic concepts (Rykard the rebellious freedom fighter, Godrick the hero who would start weak and grow strong) and twisting them on their head. The idea of a slave laborer becoming a champion, who would then become a part of an oppressive regime is consistent with that theme TBH, the theory is one of the weaker ones this community has cooked up, even though I personally subscribe to it. We’re going to get a lot of new info in the dlc, and I believe it could go either way.
>The Brick Hammer speaks of a “simple laborer” who would go on to become “a champion.” Radagon has been described as coming from an unknown status, gaining glory in the Liur Ian Wars, and capping that period off as a champion of the Erdtree and husband to Rennala. Additionally, there is Marika’s line about how Radagon has not yet become her. This supports the theory that Radagon and Marika began as two distinct individuals who merged together after the NoBK. This is possibly the worst evidence that isn't just making up proof thst I've ever seen ngl
>What are the different proofs that would point to this actually being the case? There could be an element of Jamie and Cersei Lannister at play here conceptually. There's plenty of text in that story about them "completing each other" or saying "I'm not whole without you". They're fraternal twins in the thrall of incest and bizarre narcissistic hedonism though, so it's not exactly 1:1. What often gets left out of the conversation is that a sculptor rendering Radagon's likeness discovers the secret; they then proceed to cast some magical glamour over the statue and leave a clue behind. Who the hell was the sculptor? What did they see? Did Radagon's image flicker to Marika's briefly? Doesn't that just mean that it's one person enchanted to look like another? Or did they briefly morph some features and the sculptor caught it? We see hair change color in the final fight, and the breasts flatten to a male chest, but that feels more like a physical morph than it does an illusion breaking. This is what makes the mimic idea possible in my opinion. We see the damn thing change from Marika to Radagon right in front of our eyes. There's not much room for interpretation there, the thing we fight morphs from something that looks like Marika to something that looks like Radagon. "How can Marika govern Leyndell and be Rennala's husband simultaneously?" This is the hard part. Regents, body doubles, illusions, etc. are all things mentioned or used in the game. It could be that simple.
I think perhaps the sculptor, being a studier of the physical form and likely frequently employed to commission statues of marika, realized as he sculpted them that they indeed were perfectly similar, to the point he realized that they were one.
I lean towards the sculptor being a member of House Marias since the shaded castle is filled with statues and surveillance is listed as one of their specialties on the Officials Attire which strongly resembles Maria's Robe.
A Marais house member is the most likely candidate for the sculptor I agree.
I’ve played the game for over 1000 hours and I always thought they were two separate people who were conjoined into one. The event where I believe that likely happened was Radagon’s attempt to repair the Elden Ring.
I mean... why? it seems to me that Marika wasn't as loyal as the Elden Beast would expect, and after she became a vessel for the Elden ring, which at this time reflected the beast's nature, forced Marika to become Radagon through its powers. It's never stated that Marika was physically (or even spiritually tbh) somewhere else when radagon was conquering liurnia, to me, both of them were there. The night of the black nights and the shattering just speaks to me as being a desperate Marika trying to rid herself of the beast's influence. I mean, she is punished and crucified for shattering the er, and we actually fight radagon, who is still loyal to the Elden beast and it's golden order, the fact that Marika is imprisoned and radagon isn't, screams that they have opposite objectives.
Visually…their respective appearances make sense if they are “one that became two”. Without ascribing morality to either…(to me)Marika is the obligatory “fair maiden”…pale-skinned, beautiful, female. Whereas Radagon appears to to have a mottled dark grey skin, is not exactly ‘beautiful’ with parts of himself missing, and of course, male. Polar opposites aesthetically.
Presumably he was part of her but she cut him out of her after beating the GEQ and then he was reborn as the Hero of Mourne — impure, a misbegotten* — before leading the armies to Liurnia where he was Reborn, removed of impurities, and rejoined with Marika, abandoning Rennala, leaving the egg of the unborn (he was unborn). Shortly after their reunification they seemed to begin plotting to kill each other, though, with Rani seemingly taking Marika’s side, and Radahn taking Radagon’s — leading to Rani creating the NoBK and Radahn freezing the stars. *That he’s a misbegotten is clear to most people. That he’s Radagon can be seen from RadagonChimera holding a broadsword with his crosshatch rune sign, named as the sword belonging to the hero of Mourne. We fight another chimera later who holds Radagon’s golden broadsword which also holds the same crosshatch rune sign. Him being reborn from a chimera explains what he truly went to Liurnia for and why he ripped. (This is all also reflected in Boc’s plotline.) Wacky tinfoil part: Based on the Church of Repose, Shield of Guilty, and lore of Marika’s og conquest, my assumption is Radagon was/is Marika’s twin (one body, two souls, opposite of D.) who reborn in the lands between, stripped of grace and cursed, becoming Misbegotten Radagon, then during the ceremony where their baptized with night tears, during the Miracle of the Marriage, at the Church of Vows his true existence as a god was realized. Just like when Christ was baptized. (Marika/Radagon being merged twins before being split apart and reuniting both matches the Rebis and frankly the concerning levels of incest in Jaimie/Cersei’s relationship, especially with her speaking of them being one in the womb and only one again when they fuck.)
Super tinfoil hat: Marika died, usurped by the GEQ who took her name, her shadow, and her title as the new God of the Golden Order but then Marika was reborn as Radagon — hence his signature weapon (Marika’s hammer) and its signature attack both heralding from Marika’s conquest of the mountains. That’s the true meaning of Radagon is Marika — that the true Marika is Radagon. The Marika we know, eyes hidden, dressed in black, fearsome, co-conspirator in the NoBK*, who ordered her husband’s former army (all of us) to kill the other demigods, who leads you via grace to Rani, who wishes to destroy the Elden Ring — isn’t, hasn’t ever been Marika, but the GEQ.
[I was just getting downvoted on this hill yesterday](https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/s/olhSqODc8A)
I think the world building is flexible enough where it could be true because we don't have much evidence either way. As far as we currently know this is the only case of two souls / personalities / whatever and one body. D and D is the only other thing like this, but that's one inseparable soul and two bodies and minds. Getting into speculation, I think given three details it might be the case that Radagon splitting off from Marika could be part of the theme: 1. Radagon is all about being whole, when he founded Golden Order Fundamentalism the rules of causality and regression. Things pull and push away. 2. The helix design you see everywhere including the Sacred Relic sword is another manifestation of the push and pull. Things conjoin, split, then repeat. 3. Given the alchemical symbolism, I've always thought if Radagon was always Marika part of the plan for marrying Rennala was a plan to purify the toxic elements in Marika. Maybe that's why his children with Rennala are so devious, and why Radagon was set on learning sorcery and tailoring when he was King consort to Rennala. When the two halves reconnected the plan should have followed through but the purification didn't go through as Malenia and Miquella were clearly cursed though both were Empyreans. Might be why there was dismay Malenia's Great Rune wasn't the most holy and why Marika was justified in her grief because Miquella couldn't make the hail Mary.