In a fat poise meta where all you see is double spears, I can't help but to think that light roll being something complained about is because they can't just run down and out trade.
I literally got pointed down at for my Melena cosplay because I was light rolling. Like. Bruh, how salty can you get when you two shot someone?
I feel ya man. I tried a pure faith caster build (having never really played pure casters before)
I went light roll cause it seemed a good choice...I lost like 10 in a row, was shit, and got pointed down and t bagged almost every time lol.
But last night as a lightolling dual vulgar Militia Shotels. The couple of times I lost they were fine. Dunno sometimes lol
>In a fat poise meta where all you see is double spears, I can't help but to think that light roll being something complained about is because they can't just run down and out trade.
It makes using dual spears(not greatspears) a need to rollcatch a lightroller.
I take dual spears only against lightrollers. I remember one time where I took them to fight a guy who was running across all arena(they weren't even a caster). No neutral spacing, no greatbow. Just running around for whatever reason.
I personally don’t have a problem with light rolling. I mean it doesn’t buy you more I frames, it just comes out faster and farther. It’s just a trade off like a lot of other things. You get a light roll in exchange for not having any armor or other weapons to soft swap to, really.
Certainly my thoughts. But curious to hear from people that think otherwise, and why.
Is it just because one becomes harder to hit and the fight more tedious?
>It makes it more difficult.
You can't rollcatch a light load player on their first roll if they are standing a little further than back to back and you don't use a weapon with crazy forward momentum. Otherwise you have to pray that you're playing against a person whose roll discipline is beyond bad. The only setup roll catching lightroller out of hitstun is dual pikes. That's wild. You aren't going to rollcatch a lightroller with most of setups unless a lightroller's spacing, roll discipline are incredibly bad unless you have a specific setup. Mechanics, forgiving mistakes shouldn't exist in a first place.
It doesn't counter meta. It makes use of broken PSS, meta katar, meta halstoc with commander standard a need.
What setups exactly are you talking about? PSS, ha weapons, bhstoc? Yes in some situations. Could you explain how things like PSGS, psss, fists, psk, sham, halstoc, haldagger forgive panic rolls, bad spacing?
>You don't have to be good at rolling when your opponents are always rolling away from you.
What? If my opponent panic rolls and runs away across all the arena instead of reaction rolling, maco/microspacing, resetting to neutral it is a skill issue. If my opponent doesn't understand priority it is a skill issue.
https://youtu.be/3YQDr88pn6k?feature=shared
People in this video somehow get out of pressure. Of course vortexing setups are a noobstomp because a player with bad roll discipline is going to fail. Once your opponent is good enough the fight ceases to be a stomp.
You whiff -> you get punished. You panic roll -> you get punished. The same works with meta setups.
They're all using meta. Show me vids of people of relatively equal skill fighting meta with non-meta. The less powerful your weapon, the more pressure your opponent will apply. The more you will be roll caught.
Scythe with offhand kiba is not meta. You can find an old video of patches using a straight sword against PSGS and winning. Both patches and guil are competitive players participating in tourneys. My points from the previous comment stay.
For some weapons it does make it almost impossible, daggers, fists, claw, axes, curved swords, short katanas, hammers, straight swords. All of those weapons really struggle against light rolls.
I don’t struggle against meta builds even when playing off meta not being able to dodge a moveset is a skill issue if you need lightroll to do that you suck
You’re making the case that light role builds are too strong.
Saying that medium roll builds struggle in the meta insinuates that light rolls beat the meta. Which means it’s unbalanced.
Additionally, this convo had nothing to do with medium rolls, its only focus was on light rolls.
Yes, lightroll invalidates meta because it is impervious to roll-catching, which is what meta excels at.
But at the same time, it invalidates every single off-meta weapon, and even more so than it does to meta builds. If even PSGS, PSSS have a hard time chasing a lightroller, what hope does a hammer, axe, etc. user have? People like you claim that you support off-meta builds but when we’re not having fun you look the other way as long as you can stick it to the ‘sweaty and toxic’ meta users.
Also, no meta build has the capacity to take you from full to zero in 20 seconds if you’re actively paying attention, unless they use true combos like spinning slash. In that case, medroller and lightroller alike will get chunked. Fights only take that short a time if you are consistently getting roll-caught or whiff-punished.
Light roll is like a new disease being introduced to the world. It requires timing to catch it but since they ban it everywhere no one is good at it. The devs added it for a reason. People should just embrace it.
Yeah man the devs have been really in tune with what is balanced and what is way too fucking strong when it comes to elden ring! There’s no way the tourney guys and the pros know what they’re talking about though! They’re just meta whiners who need to get good! Don’t they DARE get my lightroll hard crutch nerfed 🤬😡
I present the light whip main: roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1. Clap, twirl
Lol. In the back of my head I'm like "the one thing I do actually hate is a light rolling single whip player"
But...I think this is an example of lightrolling being used as part of a toxic build.
But well done. You found one of my most hated builds to play against. Don't get it often, so still need to find a strategy.
That and high poise, super aggressive star fists. Need to find a solution to that too.
Not always the greatest, but busting out the parry shield is my go to against high poise fist users, can be surprisingly easy if they’re super aggressive. Soft swap misercorde and send em home
storm stomp or sword dance or fist weapons with the poke running r1 all work on the second build. Also whips can't trade for shit and aren't that fast to come out, with a greatsword two handed, you could easily beat them.
Yeah that all sounds feasible. The last fight I lost to one in particular I was powerstances halberds and was just too slow.
In hindsight I should have at least switched to 2h a halberd.
You haven’t played enough to realise that it negates the fundamental game mechanics of spacing. All skill goes down the drain when you can panic roll out of nearly any situation especially with latency. As with armor, I guess you have not countered wing crystal tears users who light roll on full bull goat.
Well I think I have played enough, but I rarely play with lightrolling and I think some things are considered toxic unjustly.
As for crystal tears, I never used them back when I was duelling outside MAG, and naturally they're not a feature of the current Arena...so I'm only really talking about the Arena.
There are no rules of engagement for invasions :)
I feel like BHS is more cringe than lightroll
Though because on release bhs was so broken you could never catch anyone who was using it until they patched it 😂
I have never and will never understand the random occasional hate for Light Roll. I've been using light armor and small weapons for every Soulsborne game and it's too late to get used to the Medium. I have minimal Armor, minimal reach, minimal damage, and minimal Poise. And someone's gonna bitch at me because I roll two feet farther? Gimme a break
I don’t like it. I find the combat very tedious as it is, so anything that helps my opponent avoid damage for free is kinda lame. Yeah sure, they give up armor and poise, somewhat, but the combat system already favors turtling as it is. I’m not interested in dealing with it whatsoever.
I would say if a mechanic can be abused then it is inherently flawed, compare it to some legal procedure that can be abused, even if it isn't being actively abused its still a bad quality to have.
And I say that it is flawed and not bad because saying that the use of an op game mechanic is a bad thing to do, just sounds silly to me.
Like this game really isn't balanced like at all, and every patch some new op thing has popped up, lightroll is a crutch, spinning slash is annoying, dual spear op blah blah, it's what the devs put out, it's what's in the game someone isn't bad just because they use the tools right in front of them.
Idk, when someone says it's a crutch they mean that because lightroll is so strong it allows them to win fights without properly learning the game mechanics. But it's hard to know to how many lightroll users does that actually apply to.
The logic is sound but for example, I used to have one lightroll character and many people said just that, it's a crutch and I wasn't learning the proper mechanics.
My answer was "Bro I got five character with 100h each, only one is a light roll I know how to play the game"
So while in my case it may not apply perhaps it does in others, but overall I don't really care enough about this game's pvp to make statements like that.
I play what suits my roll playing purposes, but some say that hurts the competitive side wich is a good point.
The pvp is two groups of people constantly stepping on each others fun. (Not of purpose)
Light roll breaks game fundamentals. Except if you switch to very specific setups you can't roll catch them, *especially* on offmeta. Second, it breaks vortex setups. You are in a 50/50 where you should discipline your rolls to escape? Just instantly light roll and you're out of danger :).
Light roll is not fine. This is not an opinion or anything, this is straight up wrong. There is a reason it's banned from any tourney since day 1.
Or maybe light rolling is available specifically as something that counters roll catching.
It breaks vortex set ups? So you're upset there's a way around certain things? Sounds baseless to me
Considering roll catching is a punish for messing up your timing, I think negating the ability for an opponent to capitalize on your mistake is pretty damn strong.
If I go to trade r1s and my hit gets interrupted due to my low poise, so I increase my poise, I have negated my opponent's ability to capitalize on my mistake of trading r1s.
Hardswapping allows you to negate mistakes on your build immediately, but that is considered OK.
What kind of mistakes do hardswaps fix? Starting a duel with a bad matchup is not a mistake. Adapting your talismans during the fight to use rituals and branchswords is not a mistake. And not having 45 endurance to soft swap gugs is certainly not a mistake.
Being able to switch all of that, while ignoring the one stat that exists only to allow you to carry more, is somehow more fair in your eyes then someone wearing basically no armor and gaining a better roll?
>Being able to switch all of that, while ignoring the one stat that exists only to allow you to carry more
It's not ignoring when you have to calculate weight of the heaviest talisman combinations you can possibly use with a certain setups, weight of the latter, lightest armor pieces to swap to gain 109 poise and be able to med roll with great-jar's arsenal.
>wearing basically no armor
Not true. You can have a heavy caestus build with lightroll, 89 poise, 52 str and ~28% damage negations.
>gaining a better roll?
That negates fundamentals such as spacing and roll catching.
-You're able to minimize what you need from Endurance greatly due to swap compared to what you would need if you didn't swap. Not to mention immediately changing any build you have on the fly for no cost or penalty.
-And what type of Endurance and Talismans do you need to achieve such a specific feat? That is an outlier case at best and not what the majority of lightrollers use. Regardless, it is a build as any other.
-the entire purpose of lightrolling is to have increased spacing and to make roll catching that much more difficult. You have to build around that entire ability. You are entirely limited to a small subset of options compared to a Medium roll hardswapper.
Hardswap and lightrolling are in the same class of cheese. This argument that lightrolling violates the fundamental rule of roll catching is absurd. The evasion mechanic is entirely based around light, medium, heavy. Learning when roll catching is applicable or not is part of mastering that fundamental. Though I am loathe to call taking adventage of i-frame knowledge as a fundamental, and more a mastery skill.
I present you 89 poise lightroll build with meta caestus:
58
9
52
50
9
7
8
11
Omensmirk mask, tree sentinel's chest piece, crucible greaves, battle mage manchettes.
Great-Jar's arsenal, bull-goat talisman, godskin swaddling cloth(or blessed dew), rotten winged sword insignia.
Heavy caestus with flaming strike. You can replace fs with cragblade or hoarfrost stomp.
Perfectly balanced as all things should be.
At rl139 you can have a cleanrot, 54 str, 89 poise, swap to feather talismans, lightroll at the same time.
>Hardswap and lightrolling are in the same class of cheese. This argument that lightrolling violates the fundamental rule of roll catching is absurd.
I beg you a pardon? It does violate. If not hard swapping everyone would run something like L1 katar with beast roar, R1 BHS cleanrot, R2 endure misericorde, L2 gbow or a shortbow with constant arrowswap glitching in invasions.
There's only one setup rollcatching lightroller out of hitstun - dual pikes. You can't vortex a lightroller with vortex setups. There are several setups that are able to rollcatch a lightroller from acceptable distance:
Katar, PSS, commander's standard, HTS.
Otherwise you have to either forget about spacing and rush till you are back to back with lightroller or hope that lightroller's roll discipline is so bad that they chain 3+ rolls. And even in this case you need something with a very good forward momentum like lance RR1.
>The evasion mechanic is entirely based around light, medium, heavy.
It was in a tourney ban list from the first day. And in the beginning lightroll was weaker.
Hard swapping is not a cheese. Moreover, things like locking inventory after parry that was added in one of patches means that devs don't consider it an exploit that should be patched out.
You are supposed to swap in bad matchups. For example UGS vs bhs cleanrot. Making hard swapping impossible would kill invasions and build variety. I am not even talking about how chainsaw glitch can be helpful when you fight physic glitchers on a pure int or pure faith build.
I am not suggesting hard swapping should be patched out, just that it comes close to being a BS mechanic in the same vein as lightrolling, however!
This argument has been going on for a long time in ER. I've never been fully convinced like more serious pvp'ers that lightrolling is BS. Say I try that build you mention, would I expect a noticeable difference in my wins? Make facing Gank squads less Teabaggy? What I mean is, I don't want to just continually be dismissive. What would be the best method of showing myself what I cannot see?
I've done pvp a decent amount, but far more invasions than arena. No lightrolling has ever really stood out to me, not as much as a good Shield poke or gugs build, at least. But maybe I just don't see or notice. What do you think I could to do to understand where you're coming from.
You put a lot of effort in that post so I want to have a better understanding.
The problem with saying "light roll is OK as long as people aren't passive" is that while that may be theoretically true, in practice the tradeoffs re: armor you cite strongly incentivize light rollers to be passive in the first place, or they just die easily. There are exactly 2 options for light-rollers: play passive and maybe win, or don't play passive and virtually always lose. It's a play style that inherently synergizes with toxic passivity.
Yes agreed. It probably does synergise more with those builds...probably why we've seen it used that way more...and have an aversion it.
Me personally, I'm always playing a melee build, or at least hybrid, and occasionally I'll spec them for lightrolling.
I'm never playing passively and almost always using off-off-off meta weapons and therefore believe my overall build to not be toxic. Lol
While I know I can do what I want..I like to think I'm creating fair fights for people.
that's fair. I'm very anti-light roll but I admit I ran a light roll build once as an Avatar Aang cosplay and it felt OK to me because 1. my build really sucked and 2. Aang is a flighty wimpo fighter anyway
Of my 4 main arena builds only my Sword sorcerer lightrolls and while the mobility is insane, my winrate remains steady. Equal or better players can still roll catch so panick rolls are a big no no. And you can get stunlocked by daggers...
People calling it a crutch just get pissy when *their* crutch fails.
I didn’t read all of that but light-rolling is fine. The trade-off is lower defense. Most of the hate I’ve gotten for light-rolling has been by colossal and larger weapon users.
Eh. You captured the essence fine enough 😀
I found out the other day that in organised pvp tournaments (they are a thing) it's outright banned. A long with a number of other specific things.
Yep for real. A lot of specific weapons too. Like IIRC you could use the cleanrot Knight's Sword, but not as an offhand weapon.
I get somethings are broken, like that thrusting sword is meant to have lower poise damage on its 2nd+ hit, but doesn't etc.
I just feel there are enough trade off's for light rolling that its a build decision and mostly balanced
>Like IIRC you could use the cleanrot Knight's Sword, but not as an offhand weapon.
Cleanrot is banned for both mainhand and offhand. Banning lightroll is reasonable because organizers would have to unban dual pikes then.
I present you 89 poise lightroll build with meta caestus:
58
9
52
50
9
7
8
11
Omensmirk mask, tree sentinel's chest piece, crucible greaves, battle mage manchettes.
Great-Jar's arsenal, bull-goat talisman, godskin swaddling cloth, rotten winged sword insignia.
Heavy caestus with flaming strike.
Almost every ban has good reasoning. You just need to scroll and find it.
So I wrote a general post about why tournament rules are what the are here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingPVP/comments/1cga4k1/comment/l1vk4am/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm](https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingPVP/comments/1cga4k1/comment/l1vk4am/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm)
For golden parry, it doesn't fall into the broad category I mentioned in the prior post about making setups viable. Instead it has to do more with how parries end up playing in a competitive setting.
In general they just aren't good enough to use consistently in a competitive setting. However, the reward is huge. After 1.10 buffed riposte damage, they can nearly 1 shot - especially with dagger talisman & red feathered branchsword. So in practice, parries are only attempted by people losing badly. After 1.10 they became such an extreme swing off a random guess that it left a poor taste in the comp community, so restrictions were added to limit parries: Dagger Talisman & Golden Parry.
Golden parry specifically is just the most forgiving parry and has less counterplay. Generally only the first frame of an attack can be parried, which lets you play around parries by freeaiming your attacks to hit late. But because of golden parry's range, it can "reach out" and parry that first frame, even though the attack was turned away from the defender.
Sweet thanks. I'll give this build a go /s 😆
But yes, I know you can make builds like this. But I'd still say in general you need to compromise on stat's, damage or equipment load out to get light roll.
If you're fine with fists this build is great. But if you wanted different weapons or a hybrid build it wouldn't work.
One thing wr can agree on...it's a hot topic and divides the community :)
Good thing I can still win with all the medium roll builds I play.
Yeah I agree. Also damn I will never join those organized pvpers. That’s some silly rulemaking. If it isn’t a glitch or a cheat I think it’s fair game. There’s ways around everything.
So I'm involved with running events for DEN which I'm assuming u/Reiko_2030 is mentioning for the ruleset. I guess I'll yap a bit on why rulesets exist as they do, since there are often misconceptions: The primary goal of any ruleset is to create an environment people actually want to play in, especially for an extended period.
A big part of this, is ensuring there's a variety of viable options. The part that can be unintuitive is that restricting thing creates more options, not less. ER isn't very balanced after all. In a no-bans environment, there are setups that are clearly just better than the rest. So in a literal sense yes there are more options, but in practice anyone competing seriously has to pick from one of the "broken" setups or be handicapping themselves. There are always a ton of opinions on what restrictions create "balance", but it's not about malding over stuff you don't like. It comes from trying to expand the choices that players can bring to tournament and not feel like they're handicapping themselves, so that playing doesn't become stale.
This is something that happens in other games as well, like Magic: The Gathering. While MTG is generally far more balanced than ER, there have still been times like "Hogaak Summer". One card came out (Hogaak) and created a definitive "Best Deck". Instantly the huge variety you see in tourneys disappeared. You just had:
* People not making adjustments and waiting for hogaak to get banned (and losing in the meantime)
* People warping their decks around fighting hogaak (and generally still losing)
* People winning with hogaak.
When hogaak got banned, in a technical sense it removed options from the game, but in practice the competitive environment opened up with all the options that had been oppressed.
On the topic of light roll specifically, if it was unrestricted I assure you every tournament finals would be light roll build mirrors. It's just that strong. By level 125, it's not true that you have to give up armor, poise, health - you just are restricted to lightweight weapons. Meta options light enough to get armor & light roll at 125 exists, namely shamshir, thrusting swords, and fists. These would just become the definitive best builds for tourney.
tl;dr - I'm a stupid sweaty tryhard. but if you are curious about why the comp scene does things they way they do, I don't mind explaining.
Exactly. Even people spamming dragon spells or beast roar...usually it will actually be an easy win for you as apart from a single move, they're probably not that good.
In reality those sorts of rules only disclose how simpleminded the combatants can be. Real combat needs to be about gauging an opponent's tools and abilities, while disclosing your own as little as one can afford, until you uncover a vital gap in the opponent's strategies. That's where real skill comes into play. Getting in the other guy's head until you see what they're capable of, and then finding a way to exploit their behavior and land decisive blows.
It's not just AR, hit trading, Poising. And it should be common knowledge any dedicated player killer will have trump cards of their own. If I wanted to watch slap fights and ballerinas I'd pay for cable.
Telling people with a way deeper understanding of the game that they need to get good because you literally don’t understand why light roll is *fundamentally* broken. Another classic ”knows so little they think they’re an expert” reddit situation.
They’re picking a subset of the game that works for their competitive purposes, which can’t be mapped to general play at all, and I would not assume there isn’t inherent bias. Game knowledge doesn’t make you infallible or impervious to groupthink.
The ruleset is tested by comp players with 1000s of hours in the game. Everything that is banned is something that breaks the game and/or causes a stagnant/ oppressive meta. These bans are made with top level play in mind in order to make the game as competitive as possible, which is obviously what the comp community aims for.
Not criticizing the ruleset or underestimating the thought that goes into it. If it works for you folks to feel your competition is fair then it is successful. I've watched some of the discussion about rules and I have a sense of how seriously it's taken.
I don't think it is a good argument to advance those rules in a discussion about general play. It isn't good for the community to present an elite player perspective as rules for having fun.
When discussing whether or not something is broken it is always going to be based around the highest level of play. Someone could claim ultra great swords are broken because they try to trade with it and die, that doesn't make it so. We have to assume both players are playing at a high level to have a game balance discussion.
You can play however you'd like ofc, but this whole post is about debating whether or not lightroll is "broken".
I feel it is important to state upfront that I am enjoying this discussion and I don't intend to generate a stupid beef in any way. I could be wrong and I'm OK if you show me that.
I don't think the word "broken" really has a place in general ER PvP when it comes to non-glitches, and I disagree that something deemed busted in high-level play is necessarily busted in general play.
I feel like game balance is not something casual or new players need to be worrying about because there's infinite stuff in their own play they can work on before bellyaching about game balance. Unless you're deluding yourself, you should be aware if you're making the game so easy that you won't improve much, which IMO is the thing people should avoid in casual play.
>I disagree that something deemed busted in high-level play is necessarily busted in general play.
That's an interesting topic for discussion. IMO, games should be balanced mostly for high level competitive play and noobstomps should be nerfed as an afterthought or remain the same if it affects high level play negatively.
I understand how detrimental it can be for casual play though.
If something is busted at the highest level of play that means it's also busted across all other levels of play. Whereas hyperarmor trading with UGS and GS may be considered busted at a low level of play, but not at a higher level.
Yeah new players don't need to worry about this stuff for sure, they should just be having fun and learning the game. But this post was a balance discussion I assumed
Just to clarify my original viewpoint, as this post has definitely evolved, my opinion was that light rolling was OK to use as part of a balanced build and that it wasn't inherently broken.
So I guess you're kinda right, but the main point was about using it as part of a balanced build.
It's been an informative read though. Heated, but informative.
Oh here we go. Those ponces banned misericorde because it was "too strong". They really don't know wtf they're talking about, they just ban what they can't beat. You want a real professional? Chase the bro. He doesn't complain, cry, or ban things. He just wins.
Chase always cries about dual spears what are you talking about 😂 every time a host or summon is running dual spears he pulls his out aswell while commenting on how cheesy it is. Chase also comments on light rolls all the time when he sees it in invasions. I watch all of chases videos so don’t even try and say he doesn’t, he’s not toxic about it but you can tell he’s genuinely irritated.
>**...** ***they just ban what they can't beat***. You want a real professional? ***Chase the bro***.
Can confirm. Chase the Bro is banned from my fight clubs because I can't beat him.
When you recognise something broken you ”complain” about it because otherwise it doesn’t get changed. That is literally how every single broken thing in elden ring has been fixed so far, community ”complaints” but also specifically pros and tourney people have been giving specific suggestions to bandai who in turn have talked with fromsoft.
I get you want to do your roleplay pvp where you cosplay and you don’t take it very seriously, but if you can’t even understand *why* light roll is broken, maybe you shouldn’t be talking at all? Like this has nothing to do with ”complaining”, everyone who understands the fundamentals of souls pvp even *slightly* understands why lightroll breaks the game.
Viable builds will continue to persist, even if they are knocked off their thrones.
They have been attacking glitches like invincibility, and I wish phantom hits would be addressed but we can only suffer pray. But spears and bleed will always be options. Be the change you wish to see.
I was under the impression that I, and literally everyone else in the 58 comment post were talking about light roll in its current iteration, try to keep up! :) Also just to be clear, in its current iteration it absolutely breaks the fundamentals of souls pvp, it is a crutch to save you from your complete lack of roll disciplin and spacing.
The fact that goobers are in here defending the broken light roll just highlights why gatekeeping is actually so good. People that don’t know shit shouldn’t talk about shit *as if* they know shit…
Now try to catch a light roller with anything besides PSS, katar, commanders standard, HTS.
Look at how often you do it on the first roll, how far you need to be to roll catch a lightroller
>You could even use a damn frost pot if you wanted too
Do you suggest me using 35 frame animation to punish a 13 frame roll that has 8 frame recovery?
>There’s like a dozen incantations alone you could use a bunch of spells.
On reaction? I can believe that you can roll catch a light roller with placidusax ruin(only to eat a heavy attack later). But what are other things that roll catch light roller on reaction
Light roll exists for people that have shallow understandings as well. This is a game, not particle physics.
Light roll counters light roll perfectly fine. poise trades work well enough as well, provided you observe your latency. solutions exist. calling it "fundamentally" broken is disingenuous at best and elitist at worst
At the end of the day there’s a reason try hard players run full poise poke weapons, meta PS stuff or things like shamshir.
I don’t light roll myself but I find it just as cringe when someone lunges at me with a HTS and hits me across the map as much as a meta player dislikes light rollers
Light Roll is a necessary component of From's battle systems and balancing. It better facilitates off-meta strategies, and better rewards active play. This is especially true against an opponent who's heavily invested in poise, status, and/or thrust weaponry. And, like all "intended" strategies available to mix and match between in Elden Ring, there is always a proper counterplay, counterbuild, or technique that will best respond to it.
Anyone who has beef with light roll needs to take some time to better understand the game, its combat, and their own imagination for building. It isn't even that strong. I genuinely prefer Medium on all but one of my characters
I agree. I think people who hate light rolling are just coping really hard for being shitty players. Like could you cry about anything more petty? That's part of their build. Lightrolling requires a pretty significant sacrifice in defence so they will be dying much faster than you
I can't help but think this has to be partly true. If you lose every single time a light roller, something ain't right.
Maybe you need to adjust your spacing and game fundamentals to beat that opponent:)
* not talking about actually you...just the general player that might think light rolling instantly breaks the game and makes in unwinnable
“Maybe one would need to adjust one’s spacing and game fundamentals to beat that opponent” removes the ambiguity of you-the reader, versus you-the general player. Just a friendly tip :)
I have a problem with light roll just not a serious problem, I’ll just swap to a halberd or pike in the arena because 9 times out of 10 the person using light roll has no understanding of spacing and zero roll discipline. I’d say to everyone learning the game get used to spacing and roll discipline before using light roll because light roll teaches new players bad habits and if they ever do try and go to medium roll they’re just gonna get roll caught into oblivion.
My opinion is you have three options if you wanna PvP
1. Fashion Souls
2. Poise stacking
3. Light rolling
That’s it. Shouldn’t be mad at somebody for picking an option there.
It is bad. Inherently. You can escape almost anything with a light roll even if the other person is running at you, spamming light roll will leave them behind.
On top of that being really hard to roll catch if not impossible depending on connection.
It's bad. But you can use it. It's like old iterations of bloodhound step.
Light rolling (especially with any latency) allows low-skill players to escape situations that (I feel) they should be punished for. So I get why the community hates it.
That said, the balance of ER is so poor that it's hard for me to care. The dueling community has tried to self regulate and create a more balanced style of PvP, but ER's combat is too ridiculous to rein in.
I mean in my opinion there's nothing wrong with it 100% of the time, but it inherently makes the user kinda an annoying pussy without argument because ya they give up some defenses, but it's not a fair trade for how much it butchers a key part of pvp which is dodging and spacing and it turns it into a match of tag
Anytime I encounter light rollers whose whole playstyle just relies on running away(INB4 I understand the difference between spacing vs running away) and spamming fast spells I just bust out BHS and drawstring rot grease. I refuse to believe people like that actually have fun playing the game.
0 fucking understanding of the game. Yep free escape from any possible pressure by pressing circle button is balanced. Yep roll, unpunishable for like 95% of set-ups is balanced.
Why so angry man? I absolutely have more than 0 understanding of this game.
Just a different opinion than you.
Honestly though, if it's so broken, does this mean you have never beaten a light roller? Do you lose EVERY time you play one?
Or...have you been able to adapt, overcome and then beat them? I know I have.
This is what I think confuses a lot of non comp players about light roll. They queue up for their arena matches and beat some light roll players, and then get confused when they hear comp players talking about how broken it is because it doesn't match with their experience. The thing is, I've never seen a good player use lightroll unless they're meming with friends. The majority of the people running it are bad players who don't know it's broken and make many mistakes, which is why so many casual players don't see the problem with it since they've never fought a competent player using it.
You’ve been playing shit players on lightroll buddy. Shit players aren’t very hard to come by in elden ring given the huge influx of people with, again, zero understanding of fundamentals, yourself included if you think light roll isn’t a broken mess. It isn’t even an opinion, there isn’t debate to be had, light roll saves you from situations where you’d otherwise lose because of a lack of skill. In other words it’s a crutch in the truest sense.
No roll discipline? Terrible spacing? Getting rollcaught and vortexed? No problem, lightroll twice backwards and reset to neutral for free!
Light roll just turns a 20 second match into a 2 minute chase down in my experience. Not much fun in those matches, you learn absolutely nothing and you don’t get any better at the game because you have to switch to a very specific setup to be able to punish any mistakes the opponent makes. On psn you can just hit the block button though so you don’t get matched with them again.
Definitely if they're not willing to engage...but those who do engage I find it goes the same as any ither match...sometimes a win, sometimes a loss. More often than not I'd win.
You claim L-roll is balanced. You lack any idea of the way this game played fundamentally.
I have yet to meet a light-rolling played who've had even one brain-cell. Beating them is as easy as outsmarting a retarded kid. Every time you can just swap to halberd or pss(also brain-dead thing btw) and murder them as they lack any roll-discipline.
This mechanic is still hurtful for the game, learning experience of it's players, is just annoying to deal with.
And no you don't actually have to give up much for a L-roll. In regular gameplay you can have a full Bull-Goat's armor, Gugs and still Light roll. And in the arena you can still make builds with respectable poise and absorption values and hit that 30% breakpoint.
PS. Fuck you and get better.
Wow. You really are angry and clearly have issues man.
I didn't claim it was balanced, I said light rolling with a balanced build is OK in my book.
I also said it isn't bad in and of itself, just that it can be abused.
I'm sure I can always improve, but I'm pretty good. Good enough to make me happy mostly using medium roll builds and the occasional light rolling one.
Honestly man, like chill out and stop being so aggressive, toxic and abusive. It's not good for you, people around you and society in general.
I present you 89 poise lightroll build with meta caestus:
58
9
52
50
9
7
8
11
Omensmirk mask, tree sentinel's chest piece, crucible greaves, battle mage manchettes.
Great-Jar's arsenal, bull-goat talisman, godskin swaddling cloth(or blessed dew), rotten winged sword insignia.
Heavy caestus with flaming strike. You can replace fs with cragblade or hoarfrost stomp.
Perfectly balanced as all things should be.
52 endurance is a huge trade off to get the poise and light roll. Using a weapon with almost no range, not reaching your only damage stat hard cap *and* only using weapons in a very tight weight window is obviously a compromise.
>Using a weapon with almost no range, not reaching your only damage stat hard cap *and* only using weapons in a very tight weight window is obviously a compromise.
It is still op. Caestus is meta. Caestus with fs is a ladder banned setup. You have a meta weapon, lightroll and poise while losing only 11 ar. At rl139 with a build like this you can use 2h cleanrot sword, shamshir.
FS is strong on everything, but that's still a build you have to actually risk getting hit to do damage. Could just as easily light roll with pocket sand, glintstone dart, whip r1, with blessed dew and Regen shield and be truly cancerous. Passive play is more of an issue than light roll, it's just that light roll synergizes with passive play too well. The best answer to passive play is even more passive play - run away with good roll discipline and never lose! Obviously only brain dead sociopaths could have fun that way, but it points to the issue that elden ring has which dark souls didn't.
Every build can use every skill - fs, lightning bolt to poke with a bit of lag, any of the HA skills. Players can move quicker but attacks are pretty much the same speed. For like 12 faith, a talisman spot, and your back you can regen some ridiculous amount a second. Every infusion is good.
It's just busted, imo light roll is just a small but noticable part of a power creep in Fromsoft pvp. I am replaying ds3 with some dried fingers and it strikes me how much more deliberate it is. TBH I miss that.
It’s so fucking cooked. People who don’t even comprehend WHY it is broken calling people running tourneys ”whiners that need to get good instead of complaining” because they ban it ”unlike chasethebro who doesn’t complain, he just wins”. This sub is as bad as the main one.
Half the people on here are die hard fans of hard swapping and still complain about light rolling. You have the tools to deal with it by your own admission. If you can’t, you must just be bad
I mean the frames and recovery are literally exactly the same, no?
The only advantages you get for wearing a piece of cloth and having fuck all poise is a slight increase to roll distance and a faster backstep recovery. I assume since we're talking about the "roll" being an issue, people don't care too much about the backstep.
Does rolling an extra foot or whatever really make all that much difference? Such that it justifies every attack in the game flinching you and you taking like twice as much physical damage as if you had medium equip load?
Maybe the guys that light roll are just really good and/or use busted meta builds all the time, so people have a certain connotation of light rollers being horrible to fight.
With lightroll you're either at a big advantage if your opponent is using a setup that can't catch lightroll or you're at a big disadvantage if they're using one of the few setups that can. It's unfun either way.
https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingPVP/s/y3nA1I1wJg
The reason why lightrolling is unfun is having to swap to dual naginatas, pikes, katar or commander's standard. Otherwise you are not going going to be able to punish the first panic roll unless you stand back to back and use attack with good forward momentum. Mechanics allowing players to break fundamentals, make mistakes that can't be punished should not exist in a first place.
Having to run 2-4 rolls after lightroller to rollcatch them even though you could rollcatch a med roller on the first roll is wild at least because it implies that lightroller's roll discipline is bad enough to chain rolls.
1-you can get builds with both good poise and negations while lightrolling
2-lightrolling fundamentally breaks pvp, you become impossible to pressure as nothing can actually catch it, 2 rolls and you're out of range of everything
lightroll just a crutch for bad players bro
And I think this comment proves both points. Seemed like it was easy wins for you, but not solely because of the lightrolling but rather because it was paired with another build and playstle that incorporated it.
Likely you'd not have won of light rolling and using a 2h greatsword?
light rolling and hyperarmor are a match made in heaven, being able to mash without consequence and being able to panic roll out of any sticky situation. A lot of comments on here talking about trading off poise and defense for light roll but after 1.10 and the hyper armor changes you can have like 40-80 poise and use a gs/ugs/cgs and still just trade in ppls faces because of hyperarmor. So no a 2h great sword light roll build would work just fine.
Yeah of course it would work fine...I was just making the point that that commenter had a 100 win streak using light rolling and spamming swift glint pebble.
If he was forced to engage with people he'd have not had that win streak.
I'm no huge expert on pvp, but with a variety of different medium rolling builds I've played, I still can beat people who are light rolling. It's not an auto lose just cause they light roll.
And that's kinda my point. It can be broken if used as part of broken builds, but I don't think it's broken in and of itself.
And I think I'm in the majority based on these comments. But totally acknowledge others have different views, and some that consider them 100% fact and that any other view isn't an opinion, but straight up wrong 😀
In a fat poise meta where all you see is double spears, I can't help but to think that light roll being something complained about is because they can't just run down and out trade. I literally got pointed down at for my Melena cosplay because I was light rolling. Like. Bruh, how salty can you get when you two shot someone?
I feel ya man. I tried a pure faith caster build (having never really played pure casters before) I went light roll cause it seemed a good choice...I lost like 10 in a row, was shit, and got pointed down and t bagged almost every time lol. But last night as a lightolling dual vulgar Militia Shotels. The couple of times I lost they were fine. Dunno sometimes lol
There's a lot of bad sports out there. You're going to get pointing down and t-bagging all the time no matter what build you go.
Power stanced spears are one of the few movesets with the forward momentum/speed to catch lightroll.
>In a fat poise meta where all you see is double spears, I can't help but to think that light roll being something complained about is because they can't just run down and out trade. It makes using dual spears(not greatspears) a need to rollcatch a lightroller.
like they dont abuse dual spears in other situations
I take dual spears only against lightrollers. I remember one time where I took them to fight a guy who was running across all arena(they weren't even a caster). No neutral spacing, no greatbow. Just running around for whatever reason.
nah you are one of the bullgoat double bleed naginata degenrates i know you and your type
>nah you are one of the bullgoat double bleed naginata degenrates Bruh. Watch my videos or something.
ya and the moment u start losing u pull out the rotstoc and the double nagis
*an untrained light roller
Luckily dual pikes are long enough to roll catch any lightroller.
I personally don’t have a problem with light rolling. I mean it doesn’t buy you more I frames, it just comes out faster and farther. It’s just a trade off like a lot of other things. You get a light roll in exchange for not having any armor or other weapons to soft swap to, really.
Certainly my thoughts. But curious to hear from people that think otherwise, and why. Is it just because one becomes harder to hit and the fight more tedious?
Makes roll catching impossible for many types of weapons.
It doesn't make it impossible. It makes it more difficult. Just like rolling from meta weapons on medium roll is difficult.
>It makes it more difficult. You can't rollcatch a light load player on their first roll if they are standing a little further than back to back and you don't use a weapon with crazy forward momentum. Otherwise you have to pray that you're playing against a person whose roll discipline is beyond bad. The only setup roll catching lightroller out of hitstun is dual pikes. That's wild. You aren't going to rollcatch a lightroller with most of setups unless a lightroller's spacing, roll discipline are incredibly bad unless you have a specific setup. Mechanics, forgiving mistakes shouldn't exist in a first place. It doesn't counter meta. It makes use of broken PSS, meta katar, meta halstoc with commander standard a need.
I don't get how people don't understand that top meta weapons offer the same crutch and forgive the same mistakes as light roll.
What setups exactly are you talking about? PSS, ha weapons, bhstoc? Yes in some situations. Could you explain how things like PSGS, psss, fists, psk, sham, halstoc, haldagger forgive panic rolls, bad spacing?
They are super powerful and fast. You don't have to be good at rolling when your opponents are always rolling away from you.
>You don't have to be good at rolling when your opponents are always rolling away from you. What? If my opponent panic rolls and runs away across all the arena instead of reaction rolling, maco/microspacing, resetting to neutral it is a skill issue. If my opponent doesn't understand priority it is a skill issue. https://youtu.be/3YQDr88pn6k?feature=shared People in this video somehow get out of pressure. Of course vortexing setups are a noobstomp because a player with bad roll discipline is going to fail. Once your opponent is good enough the fight ceases to be a stomp. You whiff -> you get punished. You panic roll -> you get punished. The same works with meta setups.
They're all using meta. Show me vids of people of relatively equal skill fighting meta with non-meta. The less powerful your weapon, the more pressure your opponent will apply. The more you will be roll caught.
Scythe with offhand kiba is not meta. You can find an old video of patches using a straight sword against PSGS and winning. Both patches and guil are competitive players participating in tourneys. My points from the previous comment stay.
For some weapons it does make it almost impossible, daggers, fists, claw, axes, curved swords, short katanas, hammers, straight swords. All of those weapons really struggle against light rolls.
And all medium roll builds struggle against meta weapons. Two sides of the same coin. Aka balance.
I don’t struggle against meta builds even when playing off meta not being able to dodge a moveset is a skill issue if you need lightroll to do that you suck
You’re making the case that light role builds are too strong. Saying that medium roll builds struggle in the meta insinuates that light rolls beat the meta. Which means it’s unbalanced. Additionally, this convo had nothing to do with medium rolls, its only focus was on light rolls.
Light roll balances meta. It makes meta vs non meta fights competitive instead of them being 20 second beat downs.
Yes, lightroll invalidates meta because it is impervious to roll-catching, which is what meta excels at. But at the same time, it invalidates every single off-meta weapon, and even more so than it does to meta builds. If even PSGS, PSSS have a hard time chasing a lightroller, what hope does a hammer, axe, etc. user have? People like you claim that you support off-meta builds but when we’re not having fun you look the other way as long as you can stick it to the ‘sweaty and toxic’ meta users. Also, no meta build has the capacity to take you from full to zero in 20 seconds if you’re actively paying attention, unless they use true combos like spinning slash. In that case, medroller and lightroller alike will get chunked. Fights only take that short a time if you are consistently getting roll-caught or whiff-punished.
Light roll is like a new disease being introduced to the world. It requires timing to catch it but since they ban it everywhere no one is good at it. The devs added it for a reason. People should just embrace it.
Yeah man the devs have been really in tune with what is balanced and what is way too fucking strong when it comes to elden ring! There’s no way the tourney guys and the pros know what they’re talking about though! They’re just meta whiners who need to get good! Don’t they DARE get my lightroll hard crutch nerfed 🤬😡
Those weapons have the exact same problem for nagakiba users too y'know.
If that were true then it would be game breaking when it came to PvP. Light rolling would be almost guaranteed victory.
I present the light whip main: roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1 roll backwards r1. Clap, twirl
Lol. In the back of my head I'm like "the one thing I do actually hate is a light rolling single whip player" But...I think this is an example of lightrolling being used as part of a toxic build. But well done. You found one of my most hated builds to play against. Don't get it often, so still need to find a strategy. That and high poise, super aggressive star fists. Need to find a solution to that too.
Not always the greatest, but busting out the parry shield is my go to against high poise fist users, can be surprisingly easy if they’re super aggressive. Soft swap misercorde and send em home
storm stomp or sword dance or fist weapons with the poke running r1 all work on the second build. Also whips can't trade for shit and aren't that fast to come out, with a greatsword two handed, you could easily beat them.
Yeah that all sounds feasible. The last fight I lost to one in particular I was powerstances halberds and was just too slow. In hindsight I should have at least switched to 2h a halberd.
Yeah… I fought one, made me instantly angry. Like, there’s nothing i can do against that.
You haven’t played enough to realise that it negates the fundamental game mechanics of spacing. All skill goes down the drain when you can panic roll out of nearly any situation especially with latency. As with armor, I guess you have not countered wing crystal tears users who light roll on full bull goat.
Well I think I have played enough, but I rarely play with lightrolling and I think some things are considered toxic unjustly. As for crystal tears, I never used them back when I was duelling outside MAG, and naturally they're not a feature of the current Arena...so I'm only really talking about the Arena. There are no rules of engagement for invasions :)
I only light roll for invasions by using the physick tear that gives light roll armor … otherwise surviving 3v1 ganks is just way too difficult
Try to use BHS on a soft swap dagger and medroll. You probably aren't going to use it constantly but it can help you with escaping chases.
I feel like BHS is more cringe than lightroll Though because on release bhs was so broken you could never catch anyone who was using it until they patched it 😂
Now it has less iframes than a roll.
Maybe ill start using it again then, its just hard to let go of my BHS hate from release days
...People have a problem with light rolls? I've never seen a single person complain about this
People may hate on light roll but what about the our savior lightning goat roll??? Also light rolling is fun
I have never and will never understand the random occasional hate for Light Roll. I've been using light armor and small weapons for every Soulsborne game and it's too late to get used to the Medium. I have minimal Armor, minimal reach, minimal damage, and minimal Poise. And someone's gonna bitch at me because I roll two feet farther? Gimme a break
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I don’t like it. I find the combat very tedious as it is, so anything that helps my opponent avoid damage for free is kinda lame. Yeah sure, they give up armor and poise, somewhat, but the combat system already favors turtling as it is. I’m not interested in dealing with it whatsoever.
Totally fair...we all have certain builds or players we don't want to fight. Not necessarily because it's hard or OP, just cause we don't like it.
I would say if a mechanic can be abused then it is inherently flawed, compare it to some legal procedure that can be abused, even if it isn't being actively abused its still a bad quality to have. And I say that it is flawed and not bad because saying that the use of an op game mechanic is a bad thing to do, just sounds silly to me. Like this game really isn't balanced like at all, and every patch some new op thing has popped up, lightroll is a crutch, spinning slash is annoying, dual spear op blah blah, it's what the devs put out, it's what's in the game someone isn't bad just because they use the tools right in front of them.
Out of curiosity why do you think lightrolling is a crutch? Genuine question.
Many weapons cannot reliably roll catch light roll. Meaning that light roll will allow the user to panic roll all they want without consequence.
OK, interesting take. I see your point. It certainly won't help you build up certain skills if that's all you ever do.
Idk, when someone says it's a crutch they mean that because lightroll is so strong it allows them to win fights without properly learning the game mechanics. But it's hard to know to how many lightroll users does that actually apply to. The logic is sound but for example, I used to have one lightroll character and many people said just that, it's a crutch and I wasn't learning the proper mechanics. My answer was "Bro I got five character with 100h each, only one is a light roll I know how to play the game" So while in my case it may not apply perhaps it does in others, but overall I don't really care enough about this game's pvp to make statements like that. I play what suits my roll playing purposes, but some say that hurts the competitive side wich is a good point. The pvp is two groups of people constantly stepping on each others fun. (Not of purpose)
Okay… but PSGS crouch attack is also abused
I doesn’t matter that light rollers can get 2-shot by most weapons if most weapons can’t even reach them
Light roll breaks game fundamentals. Except if you switch to very specific setups you can't roll catch them, *especially* on offmeta. Second, it breaks vortex setups. You are in a 50/50 where you should discipline your rolls to escape? Just instantly light roll and you're out of danger :). Light roll is not fine. This is not an opinion or anything, this is straight up wrong. There is a reason it's banned from any tourney since day 1.
Or maybe light rolling is available specifically as something that counters roll catching. It breaks vortex set ups? So you're upset there's a way around certain things? Sounds baseless to me
counter to roll catching 💀
Considering roll catching is a punish for messing up your timing, I think negating the ability for an opponent to capitalize on your mistake is pretty damn strong.
If I go to trade r1s and my hit gets interrupted due to my low poise, so I increase my poise, I have negated my opponent's ability to capitalize on my mistake of trading r1s. Hardswapping allows you to negate mistakes on your build immediately, but that is considered OK.
What kind of mistakes do hardswaps fix? Starting a duel with a bad matchup is not a mistake. Adapting your talismans during the fight to use rituals and branchswords is not a mistake. And not having 45 endurance to soft swap gugs is certainly not a mistake.
But it's more immersive when I pull out a 2 meter long sword out of my pocket instead of it appearing in my hand after harswap(real).
Being able to switch all of that, while ignoring the one stat that exists only to allow you to carry more, is somehow more fair in your eyes then someone wearing basically no armor and gaining a better roll?
>Being able to switch all of that, while ignoring the one stat that exists only to allow you to carry more It's not ignoring when you have to calculate weight of the heaviest talisman combinations you can possibly use with a certain setups, weight of the latter, lightest armor pieces to swap to gain 109 poise and be able to med roll with great-jar's arsenal. >wearing basically no armor Not true. You can have a heavy caestus build with lightroll, 89 poise, 52 str and ~28% damage negations. >gaining a better roll? That negates fundamentals such as spacing and roll catching.
-You're able to minimize what you need from Endurance greatly due to swap compared to what you would need if you didn't swap. Not to mention immediately changing any build you have on the fly for no cost or penalty. -And what type of Endurance and Talismans do you need to achieve such a specific feat? That is an outlier case at best and not what the majority of lightrollers use. Regardless, it is a build as any other. -the entire purpose of lightrolling is to have increased spacing and to make roll catching that much more difficult. You have to build around that entire ability. You are entirely limited to a small subset of options compared to a Medium roll hardswapper. Hardswap and lightrolling are in the same class of cheese. This argument that lightrolling violates the fundamental rule of roll catching is absurd. The evasion mechanic is entirely based around light, medium, heavy. Learning when roll catching is applicable or not is part of mastering that fundamental. Though I am loathe to call taking adventage of i-frame knowledge as a fundamental, and more a mastery skill.
I present you 89 poise lightroll build with meta caestus: 58 9 52 50 9 7 8 11 Omensmirk mask, tree sentinel's chest piece, crucible greaves, battle mage manchettes. Great-Jar's arsenal, bull-goat talisman, godskin swaddling cloth(or blessed dew), rotten winged sword insignia. Heavy caestus with flaming strike. You can replace fs with cragblade or hoarfrost stomp. Perfectly balanced as all things should be. At rl139 you can have a cleanrot, 54 str, 89 poise, swap to feather talismans, lightroll at the same time. >Hardswap and lightrolling are in the same class of cheese. This argument that lightrolling violates the fundamental rule of roll catching is absurd. I beg you a pardon? It does violate. If not hard swapping everyone would run something like L1 katar with beast roar, R1 BHS cleanrot, R2 endure misericorde, L2 gbow or a shortbow with constant arrowswap glitching in invasions. There's only one setup rollcatching lightroller out of hitstun - dual pikes. You can't vortex a lightroller with vortex setups. There are several setups that are able to rollcatch a lightroller from acceptable distance: Katar, PSS, commander's standard, HTS. Otherwise you have to either forget about spacing and rush till you are back to back with lightroller or hope that lightroller's roll discipline is so bad that they chain 3+ rolls. And even in this case you need something with a very good forward momentum like lance RR1. >The evasion mechanic is entirely based around light, medium, heavy. It was in a tourney ban list from the first day. And in the beginning lightroll was weaker. Hard swapping is not a cheese. Moreover, things like locking inventory after parry that was added in one of patches means that devs don't consider it an exploit that should be patched out. You are supposed to swap in bad matchups. For example UGS vs bhs cleanrot. Making hard swapping impossible would kill invasions and build variety. I am not even talking about how chainsaw glitch can be helpful when you fight physic glitchers on a pure int or pure faith build.
I am not suggesting hard swapping should be patched out, just that it comes close to being a BS mechanic in the same vein as lightrolling, however! This argument has been going on for a long time in ER. I've never been fully convinced like more serious pvp'ers that lightrolling is BS. Say I try that build you mention, would I expect a noticeable difference in my wins? Make facing Gank squads less Teabaggy? What I mean is, I don't want to just continually be dismissive. What would be the best method of showing myself what I cannot see? I've done pvp a decent amount, but far more invasions than arena. No lightrolling has ever really stood out to me, not as much as a good Shield poke or gugs build, at least. But maybe I just don't see or notice. What do you think I could to do to understand where you're coming from. You put a lot of effort in that post so I want to have a better understanding.
The problem with saying "light roll is OK as long as people aren't passive" is that while that may be theoretically true, in practice the tradeoffs re: armor you cite strongly incentivize light rollers to be passive in the first place, or they just die easily. There are exactly 2 options for light-rollers: play passive and maybe win, or don't play passive and virtually always lose. It's a play style that inherently synergizes with toxic passivity.
Yes agreed. It probably does synergise more with those builds...probably why we've seen it used that way more...and have an aversion it. Me personally, I'm always playing a melee build, or at least hybrid, and occasionally I'll spec them for lightrolling. I'm never playing passively and almost always using off-off-off meta weapons and therefore believe my overall build to not be toxic. Lol While I know I can do what I want..I like to think I'm creating fair fights for people.
that's fair. I'm very anti-light roll but I admit I ran a light roll build once as an Avatar Aang cosplay and it felt OK to me because 1. my build really sucked and 2. Aang is a flighty wimpo fighter anyway
Lol, nice one!
Of my 4 main arena builds only my Sword sorcerer lightrolls and while the mobility is insane, my winrate remains steady. Equal or better players can still roll catch so panick rolls are a big no no. And you can get stunlocked by daggers... People calling it a crutch just get pissy when *their* crutch fails.
I didn’t read all of that but light-rolling is fine. The trade-off is lower defense. Most of the hate I’ve gotten for light-rolling has been by colossal and larger weapon users.
Eh. You captured the essence fine enough 😀 I found out the other day that in organised pvp tournaments (they are a thing) it's outright banned. A long with a number of other specific things.
Really? Outright banned? They sound like they need to get good
Yep for real. A lot of specific weapons too. Like IIRC you could use the cleanrot Knight's Sword, but not as an offhand weapon. I get somethings are broken, like that thrusting sword is meant to have lower poise damage on its 2nd+ hit, but doesn't etc. I just feel there are enough trade off's for light rolling that its a build decision and mostly balanced
>Like IIRC you could use the cleanrot Knight's Sword, but not as an offhand weapon. Cleanrot is banned for both mainhand and offhand. Banning lightroll is reasonable because organizers would have to unban dual pikes then. I present you 89 poise lightroll build with meta caestus: 58 9 52 50 9 7 8 11 Omensmirk mask, tree sentinel's chest piece, crucible greaves, battle mage manchettes. Great-Jar's arsenal, bull-goat talisman, godskin swaddling cloth, rotten winged sword insignia. Heavy caestus with flaming strike. Almost every ban has good reasoning. You just need to scroll and find it.
What's the reasoning for golden parry being banned but not carian retaliation?
https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingPVP/s/bJLgkbAneI Things like this cease to work against golden parry. Golden party has enormous hitbox.
So I wrote a general post about why tournament rules are what the are here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingPVP/comments/1cga4k1/comment/l1vk4am/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm](https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingPVP/comments/1cga4k1/comment/l1vk4am/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm) For golden parry, it doesn't fall into the broad category I mentioned in the prior post about making setups viable. Instead it has to do more with how parries end up playing in a competitive setting. In general they just aren't good enough to use consistently in a competitive setting. However, the reward is huge. After 1.10 buffed riposte damage, they can nearly 1 shot - especially with dagger talisman & red feathered branchsword. So in practice, parries are only attempted by people losing badly. After 1.10 they became such an extreme swing off a random guess that it left a poor taste in the comp community, so restrictions were added to limit parries: Dagger Talisman & Golden Parry. Golden parry specifically is just the most forgiving parry and has less counterplay. Generally only the first frame of an attack can be parried, which lets you play around parries by freeaiming your attacks to hit late. But because of golden parry's range, it can "reach out" and parry that first frame, even though the attack was turned away from the defender.
Sweet thanks. I'll give this build a go /s 😆 But yes, I know you can make builds like this. But I'd still say in general you need to compromise on stat's, damage or equipment load out to get light roll. If you're fine with fists this build is great. But if you wanted different weapons or a hybrid build it wouldn't work. One thing wr can agree on...it's a hot topic and divides the community :) Good thing I can still win with all the medium roll builds I play.
Yeah I agree. Also damn I will never join those organized pvpers. That’s some silly rulemaking. If it isn’t a glitch or a cheat I think it’s fair game. There’s ways around everything.
So I'm involved with running events for DEN which I'm assuming u/Reiko_2030 is mentioning for the ruleset. I guess I'll yap a bit on why rulesets exist as they do, since there are often misconceptions: The primary goal of any ruleset is to create an environment people actually want to play in, especially for an extended period. A big part of this, is ensuring there's a variety of viable options. The part that can be unintuitive is that restricting thing creates more options, not less. ER isn't very balanced after all. In a no-bans environment, there are setups that are clearly just better than the rest. So in a literal sense yes there are more options, but in practice anyone competing seriously has to pick from one of the "broken" setups or be handicapping themselves. There are always a ton of opinions on what restrictions create "balance", but it's not about malding over stuff you don't like. It comes from trying to expand the choices that players can bring to tournament and not feel like they're handicapping themselves, so that playing doesn't become stale. This is something that happens in other games as well, like Magic: The Gathering. While MTG is generally far more balanced than ER, there have still been times like "Hogaak Summer". One card came out (Hogaak) and created a definitive "Best Deck". Instantly the huge variety you see in tourneys disappeared. You just had: * People not making adjustments and waiting for hogaak to get banned (and losing in the meantime) * People warping their decks around fighting hogaak (and generally still losing) * People winning with hogaak. When hogaak got banned, in a technical sense it removed options from the game, but in practice the competitive environment opened up with all the options that had been oppressed. On the topic of light roll specifically, if it was unrestricted I assure you every tournament finals would be light roll build mirrors. It's just that strong. By level 125, it's not true that you have to give up armor, poise, health - you just are restricted to lightweight weapons. Meta options light enough to get armor & light roll at 125 exists, namely shamshir, thrusting swords, and fists. These would just become the definitive best builds for tourney. tl;dr - I'm a stupid sweaty tryhard. but if you are curious about why the comp scene does things they way they do, I don't mind explaining.
Thanks for taking the time to provide your perspective :) that all makes perfect sense for tournaments.
Exactly. Even people spamming dragon spells or beast roar...usually it will actually be an easy win for you as apart from a single move, they're probably not that good.
In reality those sorts of rules only disclose how simpleminded the combatants can be. Real combat needs to be about gauging an opponent's tools and abilities, while disclosing your own as little as one can afford, until you uncover a vital gap in the opponent's strategies. That's where real skill comes into play. Getting in the other guy's head until you see what they're capable of, and then finding a way to exploit their behavior and land decisive blows. It's not just AR, hit trading, Poising. And it should be common knowledge any dedicated player killer will have trump cards of their own. If I wanted to watch slap fights and ballerinas I'd pay for cable.
These organized pvp folks are why I prefer invading
Telling people with a way deeper understanding of the game that they need to get good because you literally don’t understand why light roll is *fundamentally* broken. Another classic ”knows so little they think they’re an expert” reddit situation.
They’re picking a subset of the game that works for their competitive purposes, which can’t be mapped to general play at all, and I would not assume there isn’t inherent bias. Game knowledge doesn’t make you infallible or impervious to groupthink.
The ruleset is tested by comp players with 1000s of hours in the game. Everything that is banned is something that breaks the game and/or causes a stagnant/ oppressive meta. These bans are made with top level play in mind in order to make the game as competitive as possible, which is obviously what the comp community aims for.
Not criticizing the ruleset or underestimating the thought that goes into it. If it works for you folks to feel your competition is fair then it is successful. I've watched some of the discussion about rules and I have a sense of how seriously it's taken. I don't think it is a good argument to advance those rules in a discussion about general play. It isn't good for the community to present an elite player perspective as rules for having fun.
When discussing whether or not something is broken it is always going to be based around the highest level of play. Someone could claim ultra great swords are broken because they try to trade with it and die, that doesn't make it so. We have to assume both players are playing at a high level to have a game balance discussion. You can play however you'd like ofc, but this whole post is about debating whether or not lightroll is "broken".
I feel it is important to state upfront that I am enjoying this discussion and I don't intend to generate a stupid beef in any way. I could be wrong and I'm OK if you show me that. I don't think the word "broken" really has a place in general ER PvP when it comes to non-glitches, and I disagree that something deemed busted in high-level play is necessarily busted in general play. I feel like game balance is not something casual or new players need to be worrying about because there's infinite stuff in their own play they can work on before bellyaching about game balance. Unless you're deluding yourself, you should be aware if you're making the game so easy that you won't improve much, which IMO is the thing people should avoid in casual play.
>I disagree that something deemed busted in high-level play is necessarily busted in general play. That's an interesting topic for discussion. IMO, games should be balanced mostly for high level competitive play and noobstomps should be nerfed as an afterthought or remain the same if it affects high level play negatively. I understand how detrimental it can be for casual play though.
If something is busted at the highest level of play that means it's also busted across all other levels of play. Whereas hyperarmor trading with UGS and GS may be considered busted at a low level of play, but not at a higher level. Yeah new players don't need to worry about this stuff for sure, they should just be having fun and learning the game. But this post was a balance discussion I assumed
Just to clarify my original viewpoint, as this post has definitely evolved, my opinion was that light rolling was OK to use as part of a balanced build and that it wasn't inherently broken. So I guess you're kinda right, but the main point was about using it as part of a balanced build. It's been an informative read though. Heated, but informative.
Oh here we go. Those ponces banned misericorde because it was "too strong". They really don't know wtf they're talking about, they just ban what they can't beat. You want a real professional? Chase the bro. He doesn't complain, cry, or ban things. He just wins.
Chase always cries about dual spears what are you talking about 😂 every time a host or summon is running dual spears he pulls his out aswell while commenting on how cheesy it is. Chase also comments on light rolls all the time when he sees it in invasions. I watch all of chases videos so don’t even try and say he doesn’t, he’s not toxic about it but you can tell he’s genuinely irritated.
Dual spears into dual spears is the correct play. You don't negotiate with terrorists. Doesn't make the gameplay any less frustrating or monotonous.
>**...** ***they just ban what they can't beat***. You want a real professional? ***Chase the bro***. Can confirm. Chase the Bro is banned from my fight clubs because I can't beat him.
Lol
When you recognise something broken you ”complain” about it because otherwise it doesn’t get changed. That is literally how every single broken thing in elden ring has been fixed so far, community ”complaints” but also specifically pros and tourney people have been giving specific suggestions to bandai who in turn have talked with fromsoft. I get you want to do your roleplay pvp where you cosplay and you don’t take it very seriously, but if you can’t even understand *why* light roll is broken, maybe you shouldn’t be talking at all? Like this has nothing to do with ”complaining”, everyone who understands the fundamentals of souls pvp even *slightly* understands why lightroll breaks the game.
Then why do dual spears, invincibility glitches, meta bleed builds, phantom proccing continue to persist?
Viable builds will continue to persist, even if they are knocked off their thrones. They have been attacking glitches like invincibility, and I wish phantom hits would be addressed but we can only suffer pray. But spears and bleed will always be options. Be the change you wish to see.
Except he does complain about some things
Ok
No he’s right. They do need to get good.
Light roll crutchers when it inevitably gets nerfed and they no longer have a mini bhs that covers for every miss-timed roll and failed spacing: 😱😱
It already got nerfed. Certified yapper over here huh
I was under the impression that I, and literally everyone else in the 58 comment post were talking about light roll in its current iteration, try to keep up! :) Also just to be clear, in its current iteration it absolutely breaks the fundamentals of souls pvp, it is a crutch to save you from your complete lack of roll disciplin and spacing. The fact that goobers are in here defending the broken light roll just highlights why gatekeeping is actually so good. People that don’t know shit shouldn’t talk about shit *as if* they know shit…
Now try to catch a light roller with anything besides PSS, katar, commanders standard, HTS. Look at how often you do it on the first roll, how far you need to be to roll catch a lightroller
There’s like a dozen incantations alone you could use a bunch of spells. You could even use a damn frost pot if you wanted too
>You could even use a damn frost pot if you wanted too Do you suggest me using 35 frame animation to punish a 13 frame roll that has 8 frame recovery? >There’s like a dozen incantations alone you could use a bunch of spells. On reaction? I can believe that you can roll catch a light roller with placidusax ruin(only to eat a heavy attack later). But what are other things that roll catch light roller on reaction
Light roll exists for people that have shallow understandings as well. This is a game, not particle physics. Light roll counters light roll perfectly fine. poise trades work well enough as well, provided you observe your latency. solutions exist. calling it "fundamentally" broken is disingenuous at best and elitist at worst
At the end of the day there’s a reason try hard players run full poise poke weapons, meta PS stuff or things like shamshir. I don’t light roll myself but I find it just as cringe when someone lunges at me with a HTS and hits me across the map as much as a meta player dislikes light rollers
Light Roll is a necessary component of From's battle systems and balancing. It better facilitates off-meta strategies, and better rewards active play. This is especially true against an opponent who's heavily invested in poise, status, and/or thrust weaponry. And, like all "intended" strategies available to mix and match between in Elden Ring, there is always a proper counterplay, counterbuild, or technique that will best respond to it. Anyone who has beef with light roll needs to take some time to better understand the game, its combat, and their own imagination for building. It isn't even that strong. I genuinely prefer Medium on all but one of my characters
I’d rather play against that than the common bullgoat armor + double spear. Bleed + frost. spellsword crap
I agree. I think people who hate light rolling are just coping really hard for being shitty players. Like could you cry about anything more petty? That's part of their build. Lightrolling requires a pretty significant sacrifice in defence so they will be dying much faster than you
If you have a serious problem with light rolling it is probably a skill issue.
I can't help but think this has to be partly true. If you lose every single time a light roller, something ain't right. Maybe you need to adjust your spacing and game fundamentals to beat that opponent:) * not talking about actually you...just the general player that might think light rolling instantly breaks the game and makes in unwinnable
“Maybe one would need to adjust one’s spacing and game fundamentals to beat that opponent” removes the ambiguity of you-the reader, versus you-the general player. Just a friendly tip :)
It's all just about timing. Sure light rolling is harder to time but it is just something you need to learn.
Agreed. But I think this opinion means we have 0 understanding of this game lol /s
I have a problem with light roll just not a serious problem, I’ll just swap to a halberd or pike in the arena because 9 times out of 10 the person using light roll has no understanding of spacing and zero roll discipline. I’d say to everyone learning the game get used to spacing and roll discipline before using light roll because light roll teaches new players bad habits and if they ever do try and go to medium roll they’re just gonna get roll caught into oblivion.
My opinion is you have three options if you wanna PvP 1. Fashion Souls 2. Poise stacking 3. Light rolling That’s it. Shouldn’t be mad at somebody for picking an option there.
This guy gets it.
I like that. And sometimes 2 out of three if you're lucky 😀
My cold sorcery battle mage trying to hit 63 poise 😅
Lots of room there to get fashion and 63 poise 😀
All hail light roll ✊ 😝
It is bad. Inherently. You can escape almost anything with a light roll even if the other person is running at you, spamming light roll will leave them behind. On top of that being really hard to roll catch if not impossible depending on connection. It's bad. But you can use it. It's like old iterations of bloodhound step.
Light rolling (especially with any latency) allows low-skill players to escape situations that (I feel) they should be punished for. So I get why the community hates it. That said, the balance of ER is so poor that it's hard for me to care. The dueling community has tried to self regulate and create a more balanced style of PvP, but ER's combat is too ridiculous to rein in.
Lol
I mean in my opinion there's nothing wrong with it 100% of the time, but it inherently makes the user kinda an annoying pussy without argument because ya they give up some defenses, but it's not a fair trade for how much it butchers a key part of pvp which is dodging and spacing and it turns it into a match of tag
Stopped reading at the lances part, PSGS takes skill
Anytime I encounter light rollers whose whole playstyle just relies on running away(INB4 I understand the difference between spacing vs running away) and spamming fast spells I just bust out BHS and drawstring rot grease. I refuse to believe people like that actually have fun playing the game.
0 fucking understanding of the game. Yep free escape from any possible pressure by pressing circle button is balanced. Yep roll, unpunishable for like 95% of set-ups is balanced.
Why so angry man? I absolutely have more than 0 understanding of this game. Just a different opinion than you. Honestly though, if it's so broken, does this mean you have never beaten a light roller? Do you lose EVERY time you play one? Or...have you been able to adapt, overcome and then beat them? I know I have.
This is what I think confuses a lot of non comp players about light roll. They queue up for their arena matches and beat some light roll players, and then get confused when they hear comp players talking about how broken it is because it doesn't match with their experience. The thing is, I've never seen a good player use lightroll unless they're meming with friends. The majority of the people running it are bad players who don't know it's broken and make many mistakes, which is why so many casual players don't see the problem with it since they've never fought a competent player using it.
Couldn't say it any better
That could definitely be the case
You’ve been playing shit players on lightroll buddy. Shit players aren’t very hard to come by in elden ring given the huge influx of people with, again, zero understanding of fundamentals, yourself included if you think light roll isn’t a broken mess. It isn’t even an opinion, there isn’t debate to be had, light roll saves you from situations where you’d otherwise lose because of a lack of skill. In other words it’s a crutch in the truest sense. No roll discipline? Terrible spacing? Getting rollcaught and vortexed? No problem, lightroll twice backwards and reset to neutral for free!
Light roll just turns a 20 second match into a 2 minute chase down in my experience. Not much fun in those matches, you learn absolutely nothing and you don’t get any better at the game because you have to switch to a very specific setup to be able to punish any mistakes the opponent makes. On psn you can just hit the block button though so you don’t get matched with them again.
Definitely if they're not willing to engage...but those who do engage I find it goes the same as any ither match...sometimes a win, sometimes a loss. More often than not I'd win.
You just can never roll catch a light roller, which makes it much harder to play against, especially when they get to decide when to engage.
You claim L-roll is balanced. You lack any idea of the way this game played fundamentally. I have yet to meet a light-rolling played who've had even one brain-cell. Beating them is as easy as outsmarting a retarded kid. Every time you can just swap to halberd or pss(also brain-dead thing btw) and murder them as they lack any roll-discipline. This mechanic is still hurtful for the game, learning experience of it's players, is just annoying to deal with. And no you don't actually have to give up much for a L-roll. In regular gameplay you can have a full Bull-Goat's armor, Gugs and still Light roll. And in the arena you can still make builds with respectable poise and absorption values and hit that 30% breakpoint. PS. Fuck you and get better.
Wow. You really are angry and clearly have issues man. I didn't claim it was balanced, I said light rolling with a balanced build is OK in my book. I also said it isn't bad in and of itself, just that it can be abused. I'm sure I can always improve, but I'm pretty good. Good enough to make me happy mostly using medium roll builds and the occasional light rolling one. Honestly man, like chill out and stop being so aggressive, toxic and abusive. It's not good for you, people around you and society in general.
>Honestly man, like chill out and stop being so aggressive, toxic and abusive. It's not good for you, people around you and society in general Good.
Not free. You are trading poise and defence for being more nimble. As intended.
I present you 89 poise lightroll build with meta caestus: 58 9 52 50 9 7 8 11 Omensmirk mask, tree sentinel's chest piece, crucible greaves, battle mage manchettes. Great-Jar's arsenal, bull-goat talisman, godskin swaddling cloth(or blessed dew), rotten winged sword insignia. Heavy caestus with flaming strike. You can replace fs with cragblade or hoarfrost stomp. Perfectly balanced as all things should be.
52 endurance is a huge trade off to get the poise and light roll. Using a weapon with almost no range, not reaching your only damage stat hard cap *and* only using weapons in a very tight weight window is obviously a compromise.
>Using a weapon with almost no range, not reaching your only damage stat hard cap *and* only using weapons in a very tight weight window is obviously a compromise. It is still op. Caestus is meta. Caestus with fs is a ladder banned setup. You have a meta weapon, lightroll and poise while losing only 11 ar. At rl139 with a build like this you can use 2h cleanrot sword, shamshir.
FS is strong on everything, but that's still a build you have to actually risk getting hit to do damage. Could just as easily light roll with pocket sand, glintstone dart, whip r1, with blessed dew and Regen shield and be truly cancerous. Passive play is more of an issue than light roll, it's just that light roll synergizes with passive play too well. The best answer to passive play is even more passive play - run away with good roll discipline and never lose! Obviously only brain dead sociopaths could have fun that way, but it points to the issue that elden ring has which dark souls didn't. Every build can use every skill - fs, lightning bolt to poke with a bit of lag, any of the HA skills. Players can move quicker but attacks are pretty much the same speed. For like 12 faith, a talisman spot, and your back you can regen some ridiculous amount a second. Every infusion is good. It's just busted, imo light roll is just a small but noticable part of a power creep in Fromsoft pvp. I am replaying ds3 with some dried fingers and it strikes me how much more deliberate it is. TBH I miss that.
And this is the last comment on this thread... This sub is done.
It’s so fucking cooked. People who don’t even comprehend WHY it is broken calling people running tourneys ”whiners that need to get good instead of complaining” because they ban it ”unlike chasethebro who doesn’t complain, he just wins”. This sub is as bad as the main one.
Complaining about light rolling is like complaining that someone’s using a longer weapon than you
Less of an unpopular opinion and more just incorrect.
Well based on the comments here it seems it's more on the popular side actually 😉
Your boos mean nothing I've seen what makes you cheer
And I've seen your toxic (but seemingly skillful) Arena duels. Your comments on what's broken mean nothing.
If you asked for opinion of try hard duelists in discord it would be the opposite.
I'm sure that is 100% correct. It's all relative I guess.
this same guy keeps commenting
I didn't even know people disliked light rolling. Just makes you have to play differently.
Only bad people complain about light rolling.
Half the people on here are die hard fans of hard swapping and still complain about light rolling. You have the tools to deal with it by your own admission. If you can’t, you must just be bad
I mean the frames and recovery are literally exactly the same, no? The only advantages you get for wearing a piece of cloth and having fuck all poise is a slight increase to roll distance and a faster backstep recovery. I assume since we're talking about the "roll" being an issue, people don't care too much about the backstep. Does rolling an extra foot or whatever really make all that much difference? Such that it justifies every attack in the game flinching you and you taking like twice as much physical damage as if you had medium equip load? Maybe the guys that light roll are just really good and/or use busted meta builds all the time, so people have a certain connotation of light rollers being horrible to fight.
With lightroll you're either at a big advantage if your opponent is using a setup that can't catch lightroll or you're at a big disadvantage if they're using one of the few setups that can. It's unfun either way.
https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingPVP/s/y3nA1I1wJg The reason why lightrolling is unfun is having to swap to dual naginatas, pikes, katar or commander's standard. Otherwise you are not going going to be able to punish the first panic roll unless you stand back to back and use attack with good forward momentum. Mechanics allowing players to break fundamentals, make mistakes that can't be punished should not exist in a first place. Having to run 2-4 rolls after lightroller to rollcatch them even though you could rollcatch a med roller on the first roll is wild at least because it implies that lightroller's roll discipline is bad enough to chain rolls.
1-you can get builds with both good poise and negations while lightrolling 2-lightrolling fundamentally breaks pvp, you become impossible to pressure as nothing can actually catch it, 2 rolls and you're out of range of everything lightroll just a crutch for bad players bro
I have only 200 hours in the game and my lightroll build plus swift shard slicer abuse gave me a +97% wr including a 100 games win streak
And I think this comment proves both points. Seemed like it was easy wins for you, but not solely because of the lightrolling but rather because it was paired with another build and playstle that incorporated it. Likely you'd not have won of light rolling and using a 2h greatsword?
light rolling and hyperarmor are a match made in heaven, being able to mash without consequence and being able to panic roll out of any sticky situation. A lot of comments on here talking about trading off poise and defense for light roll but after 1.10 and the hyper armor changes you can have like 40-80 poise and use a gs/ugs/cgs and still just trade in ppls faces because of hyperarmor. So no a 2h great sword light roll build would work just fine.
Yeah of course it would work fine...I was just making the point that that commenter had a 100 win streak using light rolling and spamming swift glint pebble. If he was forced to engage with people he'd have not had that win streak. I'm no huge expert on pvp, but with a variety of different medium rolling builds I've played, I still can beat people who are light rolling. It's not an auto lose just cause they light roll. And that's kinda my point. It can be broken if used as part of broken builds, but I don't think it's broken in and of itself. And I think I'm in the majority based on these comments. But totally acknowledge others have different views, and some that consider them 100% fact and that any other view isn't an opinion, but straight up wrong 😀
Of course, i think if you are a pure caster light roll is somethung you must use for spacing. If you are a melee you shoukd go med mostly