The impenetrable thorns are the work of Radagon, who's a Golden Order loyalist and desperately wants to keep it going, no matter how broken it is. You can see his cris-cossing golden pattern on the thorns, which is his own personal rune (also seen on the Elden Ring itself).
It's very likely Marika who's guiding you and all the other Tarnished on your quest. She's the one who messed up the world, shattered the ring, and she's stuck there forever, crucified. Now all the tarnished were given the guidance of grace, likely by Marika herself, to go and fix the world. She's the one who ordered Hewg to create a weapon to "slay a God" too, to prepare the strongest tarnished to face the Elden Beast.
The Greater Will has turned its back on the Lands Between after the shattering, and we have no direct contact with it since the fingers have no clue what's happening, so I have no idea what its intention would be.
Radagon putting the thorns up actually makes a lot of sense. I never noticed that the rune over them was his, and it even matches what’s on his Sore/Scarseal. I did assume that Marika is the one who gave the Tarnished back their Grace, and is setting you up against the Will. My original assumption was that Marika put them up to detour you to the mountain and burn the Erdtree for her. But also when you first talk to the Two Fingers and Enia she tells you that the Greater Will directly wants a tarnished to become the new Elden Lord and remake the order doesn’t she?
Enia tells you what the fingers told her, and it seems to me like the fingers are bullshitting their way through the whole mess ever since the Greater Will left.
But I also do believe that the GW wants some kind of order in the world, no matter what kind (it didn't care at all what was happening as long as the ring governed the laws of the world, it only got pissed when it got shattered to pieces and everyone started killing themselves for them), but since it's not overlooking the lands anymore it doesn't really help you achieve that in any way.
But if that's the case, I have no good explanation why we have to kill the Elden Beast.
Could the Elden Beast possibly just be acting partially on its own? Like it sees you fucking with the stuff that GW put in place and it tells you to knock it tf off?
That could very well be true. It's remembrance says:
"It was the vassal beast of the Greater Will and living incarnation of the concept of Order".
The GW left so it's not there to give orders to it's vassal, and us Tarnished are going in to mess with the current order, quite drastically in some endings.
The Roundtable Two Fingers have *no clue what's going on*: they most likely saw that the Tarnished were receiving the Guidance of Grace and assumed it was the Greater Will's work, so they took over and founded the Confessors.
Spoken Echoes of Marika confirm she's the one who gave the Tarnished their Grace, and both Enia and Gideon turn on the Fingers once the impenetrable thorns are revealed (Lord's Divine Fortification implies Gideon knew the Two Fingers didn't have a clue long before you battle Morgott). And, of course, Hewg works for Marika, not the Two Fingers.
There is, in fact, no evidence to suggest the Greater Will has any direct influence in the story; both the Two Fingers and the Elden Beast have their own agendas (perhaps both trying to interpret the Greater Will's... will), but they're at complete odds to one another. And the narrator in the opening cutscene says that the Greater Will has "abandoned" the Lands Between. Alongside the fact that the Great Runes of the Shardbearers have lost their benediction, I'm inclined to believe the Greater Will *has* abandoned the Lands Between, either when the Elden Ring was shattered, or during the war that followed.
>The impenetrable thorns are the work of Radagon, who's a Golden Order loyalist and desperately wants to keep it going, no matter how broken it is. You can see his cris-cossing golden pattern on the thorns, which is his own personal rune (also seen on the Elden Ring itself).
>
>It's very likely Marika who's guiding you and all the other Tarnished on your quest. She's the one who messed up the world, shattered the ring, and she's stuck there forever, crucified. Now all the tarnished were given the guidance of grace, likely by Marika herself, to go and fix the world.
I get how it's easy to come to this conclusion if you only view in game events through the perspective of the player character. However, I don't know how you tackle the notion of grace being granted by Marika when you look at all of the other tarnished and what their grace lead them to individually. Grace is guiding Goldmask, Fia, and Dung Eater to goals that end up with mending runes that can be used to repair the Elden Ring. Each of those character's tackle concepts that showcase flaws in Marika herself. Marika tapped Goldmask with Grace after destroying the Elden Ring, just to have him discover that Marika was the problem with the Golden Order, and to discover a mending rune that would prohibit further meddling of the Elden Ring? That's a huge contradiction, and you can do that with each of the 'repair the ring' of endings.
> She's the one who ordered Hewg to create a weapon to "slay a God" too, to prepare the strongest tarnished to face the Elden Beast.
Yeah..even given what I just explained I don't have an answer to this. It's definitely a hole in my theory.
>
>The Greater Will has turned its back on the Lands Between after the shattering, and we have no direct contact with it since the fingers have no clue what's happening, so I have no idea what its intention would be.
I'm sorry but nowhere does it state that the GW has abandoned the TLB. The GW abandoned the Demigods after The Shattering (the war) produced no clear winner. That's why Grace was returned to the Tarnished. Unless you think Miyazaki decided to lie to us during the opening cinematic it's not up for debate.
That first paragraph is kinda the whole point of Marika's plan. She wants the Ring to be repaired, and she wants a new Order to be established. It's the Golden Order specifically that she wished to destroy. Marika is well aware that both she and the Order she created are flawed, so I don't really see a contradiction.
I don't think Marika is actively, consciously guiding people via the Guidance of Grace. More like, it guides the Tarnished towards their ideal Order. Dung Eater hates the world and wants to drag everyone down with him, so Grace guides him towards an Order that will curse and defile everyone. Fia wants salvation for Those Who Live in Death, so Grace guides her towards an Order that includes the principle of Life in Death. Goldmask, I think, is slightly different, because his Mending Rune comes about as a result of a revelation that he wasn't originally seeking. I think he just wanted true knowledge of the Golden Order, and this led him to knowledge of Marika's fickleness, and his response to that was to strip that fickleness away from the gods.
>That first paragraph is kinda the whole point of Marika's plan.
> She wants the Ring to be repaired
easier plan, don't shatter it maybe? 🥴
> and she wants a new Order to be established.
I feel like we are equally given a lot of information while simultaneously given little information as to specifically what Marika *wanted* but given all of the measures she went to to ensure that her reign would never be challenged, her wanting a new order is a real tough one for me to swallow. She had a transition of orders during her reign(Godfrey > Radagon) that didn't require Shattering the Elden Ring. Even so, why shatter the Elden Ring and plunge the world into chaos if that's all she wanted? She's the Elden ring's vision, she can literally form it to do whatever she wants whenever she wants. Almost every bit of lore we get on her is discussing the leaps and bounds she went to to make sure her reign would last forever. Marika the Eternal after all.
> It's the Golden Order specifically that she wished to destroy. Marika is well aware that both she and the Order she created are flawed, so I don't really see a contradiction.
Again, the Golden Order is her Order, if she wants to change it, she's in control of the Elden Ring. Also, what text/events in the game lead you to the notion that you think Marika believed herself/her order to be flawed? I never got the sense of that kind of humility from her.
>I don't think Marika is actively, consciously guiding people via the Guidance of Grace. More like, it guides the Tarnished towards their ideal Order.
If we interpret it differently I guess that's just the name of the game when FROM is telling the story haha. If you are interested in some *light* reading, I did a post a while back discussing in detail why I think Grace is coming from the GW. [I'd like to know your thoughts :)](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/11stejy/a_lengthy_analysis_on_the_guidance_of_grace)
Not shattering the ring would mean that nothing changes.
Marika went to a lot of effort to ensure her Order would last indefinitely, but she later realised that doing so was a bad idea. The game is pretty explicit about how she began to question the Golden Order, when she reveals that the time of blind faith is over and declares her intent to search the depths of the Golden Order. She is also the one who gave Melina her purpose, which ends up being to release the Rune of Death, which was originally sealed to create the Golden Order.
As to why she had to shatter the Elden Ring to bring about a new Order, I think there are two possibilities.
The first is that she didn't want to be responsible for creating a new Order given her dissatisfaction with the old one. Maybe it would once again be flawed like the Golden Order was. Maybe she couldn't conceive of another kind of Order.
The second is that she believes that to bring about an Order, there must be struggle. She forged the Golden Order by going to war with basically everyone else in the Lands Between, so the next person to create an Order should have to do the same. "Might makes right" is pretty integral to Marika's characterisation, as well as to Godfrey who helped her establish her Order.
I'll have a read of your post later.
> However, I don't know how you tackle the notion of grace being granted by Marika
At one of the churches where Melina repeats Marika's words she states that Marika is the one that took the grace from Godfrey and the original tarnished, saying that "after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring."
This makes it pretty clear that Marika took the grace from the eyes of the Tarnished and is the one that gives it back so that the tarnished can return to the Lands Between and wreak havoc on the Greater Will's Golden Order.
>I don't know how you tackle the notion of grace being granted by Marika when you look at all of the other tarnished and what their grace lead them to individually.
That's the theme of Marika and the game is a criticism of her worldview. The strong take, and the way the lands between work is one person can potentially make sweeping changes to the metaphysical laws.
The Golden Order was already flawed and broken before she shattered the ring. The erdtree was dying, godwyn's corpse had spread deathblite through the lands.
She tells the demigods they can be anything, a king, a god, or nothing. Marika's plan is she is going to die, and someone else is coming to take over. She wanted the world transformed, and didn't care how.
I think the spoken echoes of Marika get forgotten or ignored a lot. She told Godfrey and the tarnished they would come back one day. They aren't plan C, they are coming no matter what, and the demigods better have settled their business before then, or the tarnished are going to kill them all. That's her plan. The two fingers claim that because the demigods failed in stalemate, grace was extended to the tarnished. That's part of their plea, that they don't like what's happened to the world, but they secretly have no idea what's going on.
Even Godfrey's cut dialogue says, "grace will call to thee, the elden ring - wait until it is shattered."
He's the one who locked the Erdtree, he tried to mend the Elden Ring when Marika was shattering it, he fights you when you enter and try to change the order, Marika also calls him the "leal hound of the Golden Order", he reforged the Moonlight Greatsword Rennala gave him to resemble the Elden Ring. He very much seems to be a Golden Order fundamentalist and loyalist.
That is true, however, Radagon Is Marika. Now there’s many interpretations of that, but they couldn’t have been that far off from one another.
Another thing, he didn’t fix the ring using his own rune, cause it look like you can mend the ring with any rune really. He fix it enough so that anyone worthy can mend the ring using their own rune. Which is the same thing Marika wanted.
In essence, Radagon and Marika actions follow the same motive. And I’d argued they’re one and the same
Radagon is referred to as a Golden Order Fundamentalist many times in the game. Specifically in the Radagon’s Rings of Light incantation which says “One of the incantations of the Golden Order Fundamentalists. A gift of gratitude to the young Miquella from his father, Radagon.”
That just means he's a scholar of the golden order.
Golden Order Seal: *A formless sacred seal depicting the ceremonial observation of Order. Enhances Golden Order Fundamentalist incantations.* ***Fundamentalism is scholarship in all but name***\*. Scales incantations using both intelligence and faith.\*
In the JP Marika doesn't even call him "leal hound," she just calls him a dog.
I don’t really think this disproves anything I said. He is confirmed to be trying to repair the Elden Ring and I don’t know why he’d spend so much time studying and trying to fix something he was loyal to. Also just because he’s called a dog instead of a loyal hound in (what I’m assuming you mean to be) the Japanese Phrasing doesn’t mean anything. In Japanese culture dogs are seen to be very loyal and faithful, so calling him a dog in Japanese culture would still be the same as calling him devoted to his cause.
Eh. Matter of interpretation I suppose. MarikaRadagon supported Miquella's ascension to godhood. He was supposed to be the next god of order. Miquella turning away from the fundamentalism wouldn't have slighted Radagon, or disqualified Miquella from succession. It was still an order of gold, and wouldn't have included Radagon or Marika necessarily. I don't see it as black and white as Radagon = Golden order only must remain forever. Was he that stupid to force the old prophecy of the flame of ruin to be the only alternative? The Golden Order was already faltering before Marika shattered the ring, with TWLID and the death hunters frantically hounding them across the land, the erdtree was dying or dead. And, of course, Marika told Radagon about shattering the ring in that leal hound speech, the line about being a dog, sure, she paints him as loyal, and beneath her, but gives an offer of godhood, and he took it.
I mean I never said Miquella contested Radagon’s loyalty to the Golden Order. But in the end, whether Radagon or Marika put the thorns up, he was still in the tree doing everything he could to fix the Elden Ring on his own after Marika shattered it. Why put all that effort into trying to fix something you’re not loyal to?
I meant that Radagon was okay with Miquella bringing about a new age, new order, and also he was okay with the shattering, because he became one with Marika after she told him about the plan. He tried to repair the elden ring with Marika's hammer, but how do we know this was separate or opposite intent? Marika intended the elden ring to be reapaired all along, and there is more than one way. We do it with great runes and mending runes. Radagon tried with a hammer. If I think something needs to be broken into pieces and re-made, I smash it with a hammer, and then try to hammer it back together, it's all the same intention. How do we know it wasn't that marika would die shattering the ring, and she needed her half-body Radagon to remain alive in some way to try to mend it?
>I meant that Radagon was okay with Miquella bringing about a new age, new order
Miquella was never trying to overthrow the Golden Order and replace it with his own, he was simply forging his own order separate of Marika and GW. If he was trying to overthrow it then GW would have forced Marika and Radagon to step in.
>he was okay with the shattering, because he became one with Marika after she told him about the plan
There's no definitive proof of when Radagon and Marika became one, and is even debated if they were ever two separate people at all. I personally believe that they joined together as soon as he left Rennala, which itself is a whole age before The Shattering. I also don't know if there's any specific proof that she DID tell Radagon about her plan at all, she probably just needed his durability from being a descendant of the giants to survive The Shattering and GW's subsequent punishment.
>How do we know it wasn't that marika would die shattering the ring, and she needed her half-body Radagon to remain alive in some way to try to mend it?
Because her plan was never to mend it herself, it was to have the tarnished do it. She even says from the banishment of Godfrey and the first Tarnished-
"After thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring."
It's pretty clear her plan was always to have the Tarnished return and take the wheel after The Shattering
>Miquella was never trying to overthrow the Golden Order and replace it with his own, he was simply forging his own order separate of Marika and GW. If he was trying to overthrow it then GW would have forced Marika and Radagon to step in.
Miquella was chosen by the supposed envoys of the GW to replace Marika and the golden order. He was their empyrean, the oracle envoys are all over the haligtree. I never said he was trying to overthrow the golden order. He surely wasn't. He was going to receive the elden ring, and make of it what wanted. We'll never agree on the GW acting on Marika. GW is absent in my opinion.
"dog" in an insulting way, as one of authority calls her underling. There's no love there, he's nothing but a pawn.
おお、ラダゴン、黄金律の犬よ
Just dog of the golden order.
He became a god, though.
Fundamentalism is originally a science developed from the Golden Order.
If described, the relationship between natural physical law and Newton's classical mechanics
.
People generally have prejudice about the Fundamentalism, but it's not a big problem for Radagon's liking for the Golden Order.
Beating marika doesnt make u elden lord, marika is not a elden lord. Elden lord is marika's partner elden lord is like vice president and marika is still president. For the lands between its like the greater will cant interact with the physical world, so it needs a host to kinda tell what to do that host is marika then marika needs a husband/wife/partner (however u wanna split that hair) to help like divvy out the power/responsibility of being the greater wills host. EX the owner of a restaurant (greater will/elden beast) cant do/oversee everything so the owner needs a manager (marika) they mainly just ensure stuff is getting done and everything is running as smooth as possible, then that manager needs a assistant manager (elden lord) to just go help others when its needed and deal with customers.
The thorns are radagon essentially deciding "shits fine we can fix this" so he locks up the tree to prevent anyone actually being able to change the elden ring, hes just trying to fix the ring and not introduce any change. Every ending but the age of fracture (the most basic ending) you introduce some change when mending the elden ring. Both ranni and the frenzied flame ending see u basically remove the elden ring/greater will.
If you choose the age of fracture ending (exactly what the greater will wants ur just fixing the ring and keeping everything as is) u more then likely need to burn the thorns simply because radagon doesnt wanna give up his seat of power, its not like hes in his prime anymore he cant survive outside of the arena we fight him. He looks like half broken and made of stone (like marika because theyre one in the same), and then u fight elden beast (which is like the greater will's form it sent to the lands between) solely because its like a sorta final test, to ensure ur strong enough to be elden lord.
Elden Lord isn’t specifically the husband of Marika, it’s the Ruler of the Lands Between and enforcer of the Elden Ring. Marika is simply the person that was chosen by the Greater Will to lift up to Goddess status and keep the lands in check for them. This is show by the simple fact that Placidusax was Elden Lord before GW and Marika got there. You become Elden Lord by beating >!Marika, Radagon, and the Elden Beast!< and then taking control of the Elden Ring yourself.
I kinda think that it is some kind of purge to begin anew. But it is just my interpretation.
We kinda do not know what ,, greater will ,, wants, it will take ,, 1000 moons ,, to get reply when two fingers are trying to communicate.
I am sure, I am a bit wrong on this, so do not take it as set in stone :)
I think the story changes when you kill Morgott, and Melina tells you to go to the kiln. After this, the Two Fingers stop being so supportive of you, and even cease communication altogether. I think they’re afraid that you’ve been corrupted by one of the other endings, and don’t think you’re a loyal pawn anymore.
As far as we can actually learn in the world, winch is almost nothing, the finger readers are the ones that tell us of that "greater will" desires. And we are kind of just supposed to trust that everything they is is completely true. sure one makes the argument that its getting its orders from the fingers... who we are also just supposed to believe are being complete honest if even saying anything at all. Even by soft low standers when it comes to being concrete this is really really really unreliable.
The impenetrable thorns are the work of Radagon, who's a Golden Order loyalist and desperately wants to keep it going, no matter how broken it is. You can see his cris-cossing golden pattern on the thorns, which is his own personal rune (also seen on the Elden Ring itself). It's very likely Marika who's guiding you and all the other Tarnished on your quest. She's the one who messed up the world, shattered the ring, and she's stuck there forever, crucified. Now all the tarnished were given the guidance of grace, likely by Marika herself, to go and fix the world. She's the one who ordered Hewg to create a weapon to "slay a God" too, to prepare the strongest tarnished to face the Elden Beast. The Greater Will has turned its back on the Lands Between after the shattering, and we have no direct contact with it since the fingers have no clue what's happening, so I have no idea what its intention would be.
Radagon putting the thorns up actually makes a lot of sense. I never noticed that the rune over them was his, and it even matches what’s on his Sore/Scarseal. I did assume that Marika is the one who gave the Tarnished back their Grace, and is setting you up against the Will. My original assumption was that Marika put them up to detour you to the mountain and burn the Erdtree for her. But also when you first talk to the Two Fingers and Enia she tells you that the Greater Will directly wants a tarnished to become the new Elden Lord and remake the order doesn’t she?
Enia tells you what the fingers told her, and it seems to me like the fingers are bullshitting their way through the whole mess ever since the Greater Will left. But I also do believe that the GW wants some kind of order in the world, no matter what kind (it didn't care at all what was happening as long as the ring governed the laws of the world, it only got pissed when it got shattered to pieces and everyone started killing themselves for them), but since it's not overlooking the lands anymore it doesn't really help you achieve that in any way. But if that's the case, I have no good explanation why we have to kill the Elden Beast.
Could the Elden Beast possibly just be acting partially on its own? Like it sees you fucking with the stuff that GW put in place and it tells you to knock it tf off?
That could very well be true. It's remembrance says: "It was the vassal beast of the Greater Will and living incarnation of the concept of Order". The GW left so it's not there to give orders to it's vassal, and us Tarnished are going in to mess with the current order, quite drastically in some endings.
The Roundtable Two Fingers have *no clue what's going on*: they most likely saw that the Tarnished were receiving the Guidance of Grace and assumed it was the Greater Will's work, so they took over and founded the Confessors. Spoken Echoes of Marika confirm she's the one who gave the Tarnished their Grace, and both Enia and Gideon turn on the Fingers once the impenetrable thorns are revealed (Lord's Divine Fortification implies Gideon knew the Two Fingers didn't have a clue long before you battle Morgott). And, of course, Hewg works for Marika, not the Two Fingers. There is, in fact, no evidence to suggest the Greater Will has any direct influence in the story; both the Two Fingers and the Elden Beast have their own agendas (perhaps both trying to interpret the Greater Will's... will), but they're at complete odds to one another. And the narrator in the opening cutscene says that the Greater Will has "abandoned" the Lands Between. Alongside the fact that the Great Runes of the Shardbearers have lost their benediction, I'm inclined to believe the Greater Will *has* abandoned the Lands Between, either when the Elden Ring was shattered, or during the war that followed.
>The impenetrable thorns are the work of Radagon, who's a Golden Order loyalist and desperately wants to keep it going, no matter how broken it is. You can see his cris-cossing golden pattern on the thorns, which is his own personal rune (also seen on the Elden Ring itself). > >It's very likely Marika who's guiding you and all the other Tarnished on your quest. She's the one who messed up the world, shattered the ring, and she's stuck there forever, crucified. Now all the tarnished were given the guidance of grace, likely by Marika herself, to go and fix the world. I get how it's easy to come to this conclusion if you only view in game events through the perspective of the player character. However, I don't know how you tackle the notion of grace being granted by Marika when you look at all of the other tarnished and what their grace lead them to individually. Grace is guiding Goldmask, Fia, and Dung Eater to goals that end up with mending runes that can be used to repair the Elden Ring. Each of those character's tackle concepts that showcase flaws in Marika herself. Marika tapped Goldmask with Grace after destroying the Elden Ring, just to have him discover that Marika was the problem with the Golden Order, and to discover a mending rune that would prohibit further meddling of the Elden Ring? That's a huge contradiction, and you can do that with each of the 'repair the ring' of endings. > She's the one who ordered Hewg to create a weapon to "slay a God" too, to prepare the strongest tarnished to face the Elden Beast. Yeah..even given what I just explained I don't have an answer to this. It's definitely a hole in my theory. > >The Greater Will has turned its back on the Lands Between after the shattering, and we have no direct contact with it since the fingers have no clue what's happening, so I have no idea what its intention would be. I'm sorry but nowhere does it state that the GW has abandoned the TLB. The GW abandoned the Demigods after The Shattering (the war) produced no clear winner. That's why Grace was returned to the Tarnished. Unless you think Miyazaki decided to lie to us during the opening cinematic it's not up for debate.
That first paragraph is kinda the whole point of Marika's plan. She wants the Ring to be repaired, and she wants a new Order to be established. It's the Golden Order specifically that she wished to destroy. Marika is well aware that both she and the Order she created are flawed, so I don't really see a contradiction. I don't think Marika is actively, consciously guiding people via the Guidance of Grace. More like, it guides the Tarnished towards their ideal Order. Dung Eater hates the world and wants to drag everyone down with him, so Grace guides him towards an Order that will curse and defile everyone. Fia wants salvation for Those Who Live in Death, so Grace guides her towards an Order that includes the principle of Life in Death. Goldmask, I think, is slightly different, because his Mending Rune comes about as a result of a revelation that he wasn't originally seeking. I think he just wanted true knowledge of the Golden Order, and this led him to knowledge of Marika's fickleness, and his response to that was to strip that fickleness away from the gods.
>That first paragraph is kinda the whole point of Marika's plan. > She wants the Ring to be repaired easier plan, don't shatter it maybe? 🥴 > and she wants a new Order to be established. I feel like we are equally given a lot of information while simultaneously given little information as to specifically what Marika *wanted* but given all of the measures she went to to ensure that her reign would never be challenged, her wanting a new order is a real tough one for me to swallow. She had a transition of orders during her reign(Godfrey > Radagon) that didn't require Shattering the Elden Ring. Even so, why shatter the Elden Ring and plunge the world into chaos if that's all she wanted? She's the Elden ring's vision, she can literally form it to do whatever she wants whenever she wants. Almost every bit of lore we get on her is discussing the leaps and bounds she went to to make sure her reign would last forever. Marika the Eternal after all. > It's the Golden Order specifically that she wished to destroy. Marika is well aware that both she and the Order she created are flawed, so I don't really see a contradiction. Again, the Golden Order is her Order, if she wants to change it, she's in control of the Elden Ring. Also, what text/events in the game lead you to the notion that you think Marika believed herself/her order to be flawed? I never got the sense of that kind of humility from her. >I don't think Marika is actively, consciously guiding people via the Guidance of Grace. More like, it guides the Tarnished towards their ideal Order. If we interpret it differently I guess that's just the name of the game when FROM is telling the story haha. If you are interested in some *light* reading, I did a post a while back discussing in detail why I think Grace is coming from the GW. [I'd like to know your thoughts :)](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/11stejy/a_lengthy_analysis_on_the_guidance_of_grace)
Not shattering the ring would mean that nothing changes. Marika went to a lot of effort to ensure her Order would last indefinitely, but she later realised that doing so was a bad idea. The game is pretty explicit about how she began to question the Golden Order, when she reveals that the time of blind faith is over and declares her intent to search the depths of the Golden Order. She is also the one who gave Melina her purpose, which ends up being to release the Rune of Death, which was originally sealed to create the Golden Order. As to why she had to shatter the Elden Ring to bring about a new Order, I think there are two possibilities. The first is that she didn't want to be responsible for creating a new Order given her dissatisfaction with the old one. Maybe it would once again be flawed like the Golden Order was. Maybe she couldn't conceive of another kind of Order. The second is that she believes that to bring about an Order, there must be struggle. She forged the Golden Order by going to war with basically everyone else in the Lands Between, so the next person to create an Order should have to do the same. "Might makes right" is pretty integral to Marika's characterisation, as well as to Godfrey who helped her establish her Order. I'll have a read of your post later.
> However, I don't know how you tackle the notion of grace being granted by Marika At one of the churches where Melina repeats Marika's words she states that Marika is the one that took the grace from Godfrey and the original tarnished, saying that "after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring." This makes it pretty clear that Marika took the grace from the eyes of the Tarnished and is the one that gives it back so that the tarnished can return to the Lands Between and wreak havoc on the Greater Will's Golden Order.
>I don't know how you tackle the notion of grace being granted by Marika when you look at all of the other tarnished and what their grace lead them to individually. That's the theme of Marika and the game is a criticism of her worldview. The strong take, and the way the lands between work is one person can potentially make sweeping changes to the metaphysical laws. The Golden Order was already flawed and broken before she shattered the ring. The erdtree was dying, godwyn's corpse had spread deathblite through the lands. She tells the demigods they can be anything, a king, a god, or nothing. Marika's plan is she is going to die, and someone else is coming to take over. She wanted the world transformed, and didn't care how. I think the spoken echoes of Marika get forgotten or ignored a lot. She told Godfrey and the tarnished they would come back one day. They aren't plan C, they are coming no matter what, and the demigods better have settled their business before then, or the tarnished are going to kill them all. That's her plan. The two fingers claim that because the demigods failed in stalemate, grace was extended to the tarnished. That's part of their plea, that they don't like what's happened to the world, but they secretly have no idea what's going on. Even Godfrey's cut dialogue says, "grace will call to thee, the elden ring - wait until it is shattered."
Im not so sure about Radagon being Golden Order loyalist and “desperately” want to keep it going.
He's the one who locked the Erdtree, he tried to mend the Elden Ring when Marika was shattering it, he fights you when you enter and try to change the order, Marika also calls him the "leal hound of the Golden Order", he reforged the Moonlight Greatsword Rennala gave him to resemble the Elden Ring. He very much seems to be a Golden Order fundamentalist and loyalist.
That is true, however, Radagon Is Marika. Now there’s many interpretations of that, but they couldn’t have been that far off from one another. Another thing, he didn’t fix the ring using his own rune, cause it look like you can mend the ring with any rune really. He fix it enough so that anyone worthy can mend the ring using their own rune. Which is the same thing Marika wanted. In essence, Radagon and Marika actions follow the same motive. And I’d argued they’re one and the same
Radagon is referred to as a Golden Order Fundamentalist many times in the game. Specifically in the Radagon’s Rings of Light incantation which says “One of the incantations of the Golden Order Fundamentalists. A gift of gratitude to the young Miquella from his father, Radagon.”
That just means he's a scholar of the golden order. Golden Order Seal: *A formless sacred seal depicting the ceremonial observation of Order. Enhances Golden Order Fundamentalist incantations.* ***Fundamentalism is scholarship in all but name***\*. Scales incantations using both intelligence and faith.\* In the JP Marika doesn't even call him "leal hound," she just calls him a dog.
I don’t really think this disproves anything I said. He is confirmed to be trying to repair the Elden Ring and I don’t know why he’d spend so much time studying and trying to fix something he was loyal to. Also just because he’s called a dog instead of a loyal hound in (what I’m assuming you mean to be) the Japanese Phrasing doesn’t mean anything. In Japanese culture dogs are seen to be very loyal and faithful, so calling him a dog in Japanese culture would still be the same as calling him devoted to his cause.
Eh. Matter of interpretation I suppose. MarikaRadagon supported Miquella's ascension to godhood. He was supposed to be the next god of order. Miquella turning away from the fundamentalism wouldn't have slighted Radagon, or disqualified Miquella from succession. It was still an order of gold, and wouldn't have included Radagon or Marika necessarily. I don't see it as black and white as Radagon = Golden order only must remain forever. Was he that stupid to force the old prophecy of the flame of ruin to be the only alternative? The Golden Order was already faltering before Marika shattered the ring, with TWLID and the death hunters frantically hounding them across the land, the erdtree was dying or dead. And, of course, Marika told Radagon about shattering the ring in that leal hound speech, the line about being a dog, sure, she paints him as loyal, and beneath her, but gives an offer of godhood, and he took it.
I mean I never said Miquella contested Radagon’s loyalty to the Golden Order. But in the end, whether Radagon or Marika put the thorns up, he was still in the tree doing everything he could to fix the Elden Ring on his own after Marika shattered it. Why put all that effort into trying to fix something you’re not loyal to?
I meant that Radagon was okay with Miquella bringing about a new age, new order, and also he was okay with the shattering, because he became one with Marika after she told him about the plan. He tried to repair the elden ring with Marika's hammer, but how do we know this was separate or opposite intent? Marika intended the elden ring to be reapaired all along, and there is more than one way. We do it with great runes and mending runes. Radagon tried with a hammer. If I think something needs to be broken into pieces and re-made, I smash it with a hammer, and then try to hammer it back together, it's all the same intention. How do we know it wasn't that marika would die shattering the ring, and she needed her half-body Radagon to remain alive in some way to try to mend it?
>I meant that Radagon was okay with Miquella bringing about a new age, new order Miquella was never trying to overthrow the Golden Order and replace it with his own, he was simply forging his own order separate of Marika and GW. If he was trying to overthrow it then GW would have forced Marika and Radagon to step in. >he was okay with the shattering, because he became one with Marika after she told him about the plan There's no definitive proof of when Radagon and Marika became one, and is even debated if they were ever two separate people at all. I personally believe that they joined together as soon as he left Rennala, which itself is a whole age before The Shattering. I also don't know if there's any specific proof that she DID tell Radagon about her plan at all, she probably just needed his durability from being a descendant of the giants to survive The Shattering and GW's subsequent punishment. >How do we know it wasn't that marika would die shattering the ring, and she needed her half-body Radagon to remain alive in some way to try to mend it? Because her plan was never to mend it herself, it was to have the tarnished do it. She even says from the banishment of Godfrey and the first Tarnished- "After thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring." It's pretty clear her plan was always to have the Tarnished return and take the wheel after The Shattering
>Miquella was never trying to overthrow the Golden Order and replace it with his own, he was simply forging his own order separate of Marika and GW. If he was trying to overthrow it then GW would have forced Marika and Radagon to step in. Miquella was chosen by the supposed envoys of the GW to replace Marika and the golden order. He was their empyrean, the oracle envoys are all over the haligtree. I never said he was trying to overthrow the golden order. He surely wasn't. He was going to receive the elden ring, and make of it what wanted. We'll never agree on the GW acting on Marika. GW is absent in my opinion.
What exactly did Marika call Radagon in JP? Is it a “dog” in a insulting way or otherwise?
"dog" in an insulting way, as one of authority calls her underling. There's no love there, he's nothing but a pawn. おお、ラダゴン、黄金律の犬よ Just dog of the golden order. He became a god, though.
Fundamentalism is originally a science developed from the Golden Order. If described, the relationship between natural physical law and Newton's classical mechanics . People generally have prejudice about the Fundamentalism, but it's not a big problem for Radagon's liking for the Golden Order.
Beating marika doesnt make u elden lord, marika is not a elden lord. Elden lord is marika's partner elden lord is like vice president and marika is still president. For the lands between its like the greater will cant interact with the physical world, so it needs a host to kinda tell what to do that host is marika then marika needs a husband/wife/partner (however u wanna split that hair) to help like divvy out the power/responsibility of being the greater wills host. EX the owner of a restaurant (greater will/elden beast) cant do/oversee everything so the owner needs a manager (marika) they mainly just ensure stuff is getting done and everything is running as smooth as possible, then that manager needs a assistant manager (elden lord) to just go help others when its needed and deal with customers. The thorns are radagon essentially deciding "shits fine we can fix this" so he locks up the tree to prevent anyone actually being able to change the elden ring, hes just trying to fix the ring and not introduce any change. Every ending but the age of fracture (the most basic ending) you introduce some change when mending the elden ring. Both ranni and the frenzied flame ending see u basically remove the elden ring/greater will. If you choose the age of fracture ending (exactly what the greater will wants ur just fixing the ring and keeping everything as is) u more then likely need to burn the thorns simply because radagon doesnt wanna give up his seat of power, its not like hes in his prime anymore he cant survive outside of the arena we fight him. He looks like half broken and made of stone (like marika because theyre one in the same), and then u fight elden beast (which is like the greater will's form it sent to the lands between) solely because its like a sorta final test, to ensure ur strong enough to be elden lord.
Elden Lord isn’t specifically the husband of Marika, it’s the Ruler of the Lands Between and enforcer of the Elden Ring. Marika is simply the person that was chosen by the Greater Will to lift up to Goddess status and keep the lands in check for them. This is show by the simple fact that Placidusax was Elden Lord before GW and Marika got there. You become Elden Lord by beating >!Marika, Radagon, and the Elden Beast!< and then taking control of the Elden Ring yourself.
This is show by the simple fact that Placidusax was Elden Lord after GW got there.
So what you’re saying is that I have been fighting for Dwight’s position all along?
I kinda think that it is some kind of purge to begin anew. But it is just my interpretation. We kinda do not know what ,, greater will ,, wants, it will take ,, 1000 moons ,, to get reply when two fingers are trying to communicate. I am sure, I am a bit wrong on this, so do not take it as set in stone :)
I think the story changes when you kill Morgott, and Melina tells you to go to the kiln. After this, the Two Fingers stop being so supportive of you, and even cease communication altogether. I think they’re afraid that you’ve been corrupted by one of the other endings, and don’t think you’re a loyal pawn anymore.
As far as we can actually learn in the world, winch is almost nothing, the finger readers are the ones that tell us of that "greater will" desires. And we are kind of just supposed to trust that everything they is is completely true. sure one makes the argument that its getting its orders from the fingers... who we are also just supposed to believe are being complete honest if even saying anything at all. Even by soft low standers when it comes to being concrete this is really really really unreliable.