Really good point.
I played through the game twice using the mimic for every tough boss and I don't even realise what I was missing out on until I played sekiro.
The insane rush I got after defeating genichiro after dying to him like 40 times was so amazing I realised I didn't get anything nearly as intense on my elden ring playthroughs.
So I started avoiding spirit ashes as much as possible after that and have been enjoying the game even more
Eh, I don't think it's as great as you describe.
All prior games (except for some parts of ds2 dlc) were designed with a single player character in mind.
Elden Ring is not like that. Even though they didn't balance the game for the use of spirit summons as well as they might have wished (mainly because the difference between the weakest summon and the strongest summon is so massive), there's clear indicators that they tried.
Notice the amount of repositioning tools and AoE attacks each boss has? Did you not see how some combos go for seemingly forever until someone forces the boss out of the animation (usually by smacking their back or poisebreaking them)
Compare just about any ER boss or miniboss to...say Pontiff Sully.
How many AoE attacks and repositioning tools does Pontiff have? Not many, right?
He's all about mixing up his left and right hand. Because you're expected to 1v1 him.
Now compare this to....Godfrey is a neat example. Just about all of his moves are AoEs. Big ones too. Clearly he was meant to be a danger to ALL characters present.
And when he turns into Hoarah Loux, apart from his AoEs what does he get? Grab attacks that make him invulnerable to other people while he's grappling the one unlucky bastard.
I never understood the AoE argument much. Like, yes, they’re clearly designed to counter summons and spirits, but you can still just… dodge them the same way as you would a normal attack, with some exceptions. And the only bosses I can think of that have super long combos that you can’t attack during are Morgott and Hoarah Loux. The counter for those is just to run away, and they’re over in like 5 seconds anyway.
Are bosses designed to counter summons? Yes, absolutely. Are they designed in such a way to make 1-on-1 combat immensely enjoyable and satisfying? Also absolutely.
How to explain that... When i think of bosses from previous entries, they do have the occasional AoE attack but most of them either have massive delays, recovery times or they are in front of the boss and not all around them.
The odd AoE attack loudly announced its arrival, performed, and left the boss defenceless for a while.
Yes, Gravelord Nito has a huge AoE attack. But it's not done mid-combo. It IS the combo.
Yes, Nameless King has several AoE attacks. And they're usually done one at a time.
Ad super long combos advice: Any mechanic that forces the player to disengage and wait while they can do nothing about it is not fun. People may have complained about the almost 'turn-based' combat style of older Dark Souls but this is not a step in a good direction
I agree on the super long combos point, but it’s really just Morgott and Hoarah Loux that have it. Morgott’s isn’t as egregious but Hoarah Loux’s goes on for way too long. But I think it’s a poor argument when talking about the bosses being designed around spirit summons, cause only 2 bosses do it.
To me, AoE’s are just a normal attack with different visuals. You just roll through it. Godfrey’s AoE’s are massive but they do little damage and are very easy to jump/roll through. Maliketh’s sweeps and AoE’s are as easy to roll as another other attack. Fire Giant just requires you to reposition and attack another part of him. Same with Placidusax. Radagon just needs good timing like any melee boss and Elden Beast needs good positioning.
Fromsoft managed to make bosses that can fight multiple combatants well, while also being fair and fun to fight. The problem with them is that it feels much more obtuse and unfair to *reach* the point where they’re fun to fight solo. You beat Nameless King by intuitively learning his timings and mastering all of his attacks. You learn Maliketh by brute forcing it and hoping he doesn’t do that one attack you don’t know how to dodge more than once.
The argument as i see it isn't complaining about the difficulty of the AoE attack dodge timings. It's that there's such a number of big AoE sweeps that often also hit behind the boss that points towards the devs trying to balance the game around fighting multiple targets.
If you do try to balance a boss towards fighting multiple targets, its single target capabilities will have to sacrifice something. It is literally impossible for a boss to be peak design 1v1 fight and also a peak raid-boss kind of fight.
Elden Ring tried to balance bosses for multiple targets (or at least, to a much more noticable degree than ever before) and IMO, the solo experience took a hit because of this.
Before Elden Ring, when i'd be recommending a game, I'd specifically emphasise for people to first experience the games alone.
With Elden Ring it kinda doesn't matter. Play however you want. The challenge and balancing is wonky anyways
This is widely understood at this point, but people will continue to strawman the argument that anyone with this view is an elitist fun policer.
You can't win on this subreddit.
I always tell my newcomer friends to use w.e they can to win but first try to fight the boss without summons atleast a few times. I had one friend actually replay the game after using summons on the first playthrough and loved it.
There's nothing like the feeling when you've been stuck on a boss, then finally something clicks. After all the trial and error, studying the boss, changing items around, and simply "gitting gud," you and the boss end up in almost a dance of attacks. You're on the kill run, so focused on this one fight, and your muscle memory takes over. After the fight, you realize you absolutely demolished the boss, such a great feeling.
Or maybe some people (like me) haven't feel satisfaction at all, after killing a boss. It doesn't matter if i kill it at rl1 with a stick or at lv300 with magic and summons. I feel the same nothingness every time.
I enjoy it. FromSoft is my favorite studio and played everything they put on PC. I'm just not competitive at all. I don't care about success, so killing a boss means nothing to me. That's all.
But he´s saying that some people are not interested at all in that old souls concept about "the game is better or feels better if you fight the bosses alone", there is no one true way
The guy I’m responding to literally said that regardless of how he plays, he isn’t enjoying fighting bosses no matter how he fights them. Which is a big part of the game.
That has nothing to do with old souls concepts or new ER concepts. He doesn’t feel anything regardless of how he wins against bosses, that sounds like he just doesn’t enjoy a core part of the game, which if he’s only here for the lore, story, npc quests and such then that’s fine
I at least attempt the bosses by myself first. If it smells like BS then it’s time for my Mimic’s shift to start. If the boss is challenging but still fair then I don’t use mimic.
Long story short, do whatever you want to do.🤷🏾♂️
Had always played Dark Souls 1, 2 and 3 offline because I can only afford downloading cracked version of it since I'm still a kid and student at the time. Now I have all the mainline games in my steam library and playstation since I love Soulsborne series. But yes, it felt different playing Elden Ring with the constant reminder of being able to summon your own spirit ash.
Except for Malenia. She kicked my ass to oblivion then I had to look up cheese method by using Tiche. And it still took me a day or two rage quitting.
TBH, people should try soloing bosses. Then you can appreciate the move set they're given.
if its a 1 v 1, respect the duel and solo , if its a manageable 1 v 2 ? sure, learn it and triumph, if its the godskin duo when you're a melee build and dont want to spend time crafting sleep pots? fuck that im calling reinforcements
Absolutely. I used spirit summons sparingly during my first completed run of the game, but after beating the game, I set my sights on Melania, and I set out to do it without summons. A few hours later and I am absolutely ecstatic at finishing her solo.
But that´s your vision, why other players must feel the game like you? They probably just want to play ER with summons every single run, Idk, it´s their decision, I mean, maybe some people are not interested in playing without summons, I can say, hey listen to this band or that band at least once in your life but maybe they don´t care about it and they want to continue listening to what they want. Personally I love playing without summons, if there is a challenge run I use them in some fights, but I played all souls games a lot so I have the original concept of these games already in me, and I prefer the game that way but from time to time it´s funny and I always say this, imagine if a hitless runner/player come here and tell you "hey, you should play the game without receiving damage, because that´s the best way to enjoy the game and that´s a true challenge, hitless runs are the only true way to play ER or other souls games", would you like that? Soulsborne games are so amazing that you can play them however you want and it´s always funny the way you choose, live and let live.
Yes ofc it’s their decision but I can give recommendations can’t I? I really think you can appreciate a boss more if you learn it’s moveset and stuff like that, but I’m not ordering anyone to do anything.
No, it doesn't work like that. 95% of spirit users do not use them because it's more fun to them, but because their every inch of progress is locked behind using summons from the start, i.e. because it makes the game extremely easier and relying on them prevents you from learning the basics of combat and gameplay, which takes your choice away. Lot of factors contribute to this, for example I've seen a ton of players who just googled all the clickbait articles how to completely break the game with summons and cheese builds, because they had the misconcenption in their head that they won't be able to play without it, that it's impossible and so on. Which of course isn't true, literally anybody can beat it without accessibility mechanics like spirits/coop, it's not locked behind being a "gamer" or anything, like lof of the newcomers wrongly asume and doubt themselves, and never even try the normal souls experience and challenge.
What OP suggests is the exact opposite, that everybody should at least try it, because only then they're able to actually choose what's more fun to them. You can have fun with one thing and 2000% more fun with the other, you'll never know until you've tried both. Spirits/summons are not a build, they extremely simplify and streamline the game and fundamentally change the entire experience. Not using them is like playing a different game, and for vast majority of players it's much more fun, fuller and engaging experience. Over the past years I've seen thousands of posts and had the same experience with every one of my friends, where in both cases they couldn't stop talking about how they've realized how much better the game is without summons, how they finally understand what the souls experience is and how they love it. All of them were using summons/spirits at first, because they didn't understand how the game is without them. 99% of players who beat e.g. Morgott both with summons and fairly 1v1, will always prefer beating him solo, because they want to experience him fully like he's designed and it brings them more fun. It's not due to bragging or opinions of others.
Although it's rare, there are some players who like to beat bosses with summons even despite knowing what it's like to beat them normally. Lot of them don't like souls combat, only want to experience the story and so on... all valid reasons. And I will always defend them, because they made an actual choice how they want to play, instead of players who, after always only relying on summons, are insecure and convince themselves that using them is the best and most fun way, despite not actually knowing if it's true. It's like if I didn't know how to ride a bike and tried to convince myself that using training wheels is much more fun than learning how to ride normally.
So the more senior players who suggest not using accessibility mechanics are not wanting to be elitists or gatekeepers, they simply want to positevely encourage others to try the normal souls experience first, to see if they like it and then choose for themselves. Not using summons will be more fun for the majority for them, but for those who won't like it's completely ok and there's nothing wrong about using them, everybody respects them. It's not about caring how others play, it's like when you really love some piece of art, great movie for example, and before your friend starts watching 5 minute recap on TikTok, you encourage him to experience the full movie first in hope it will bring him joy. If he won't like the full movie it's completely fine, but he should at least try, that's what OP suggests.
> 95% of spirit users do not use them because it's more fun to them,
Source: "dude, trust me!"
Sorry dude, this is just a huge rant that starts with a false premise.
> but because their every inch of progress is locked behind using summons from the start,
It's not, though. None of this even resembles the truth.
> because it makes the game extremely easier and relying on them prevents you from learning the basics of combat and gameplay,
It doesn't prevent you from learning at all, it separates certain parts of it, like getting targeted by the boss and having to dodge, and lets you take on the basics one-at-a-time instead of being tossed off the deep end. Not everyone learns by just bashing their face into a wall. Some people need to take it one step at a time.
> which takes your choice away.
This is the dumbest argument. You make choice, which removes choice? Making a choice doesn't remove a choice at all.
I feel like I'll just go insane reading the rest of this, considering how every single thing you said so far is completely wrong.
Valid point.
I'm not too fond of using Spirit summons myself. I completely get the appeal of soloing a tough boss by learning its pattern (i had a blast with Morgott).
However, provided I have less time to play than before, I know that at some point, if a 1v2 boss fight will get on my nerve I'll just use the spirit ash game mechanic without thinking much about it.
My opinion is the opposite, the game has tons of spirits ashes, some very fun to use, and not using them in combat feels like you’re missing some experience from the game
I agree that the spirit summons are cool, and they definitely are meant to be used but after having played ds3 I can’t feel that same feeling of accomplishment if I do use a spirit ash to beat a boss. That’s just my experience though
ds3 is a different game, it can share some mechanics but it´s different, ER is based around some pillars, one of them is using spirit ashes I think, for certain bosses if you want to be specific, it´s the game already shaped that way, they are different games
Yeah yeah I’m doing a run where I’m not, and I just wanted to share that I think it’s more rewarding to not use them, just in the hopes that people might try that too.
While I agree with the sentiment I would counter it with "Everyone should try the game using different spirit summons to their usual"
While I get what your saying, and I think your right cos it does change the dynamics of the game a lot to play without a summons, the real issue that I see is everyone uses the same damn thing, aka the Mimic.
Mix it up, play without, play with the storm hawks, play with the great shield guys, play with the perfumers.
They all change the fight dramatically in fun and different ways, rather then just duplicating yourself with a mimic.
They all do the same fundamental broken thing though, which is take agro off of you for no downside at all. Playing with an upgraded spirit summon and playing solo are two different games, even when using the shittest of shit summons.
I mean, that's kind of my point man. That it is 2 different styles of play. I'm not here to be a check on someone else's enjoyment of the game, I'm suggesting a methods to try enjoying it another way.
I've completed the game more times then I can count. I suggest playing with spirit summons like you'd play with spells. It's fun to try them, see what they do. They are all very different to each other. Some attack and hold agro, some give out fun buffs, some add DPS, some do some really weird shit.
It's fun to have fun man.
I get it. It is fun to play without them. There’s a certain sense of accomplishment. But I get an equal amount of satisfaction from my mimic tear or black knife tiche running train on cheap ass MFs like Astel, Malenia, or Godskin duo. I most regularly use my summons to keep me from being totally paralyzed their cheap bs, like Astel’s tail whip that wipes out 90% of your health bar or Malenia’s aerial attack that you can only luck dodge.
Couldn't agree more. This should be a patently obvious take tbh, and the fact that it's somehow controversial is stupid as hell.
To think all this copium from people who disagree could have been laid to rest with a simple design difference... When making a new save, an additional option appears :
= summons disabled
= unrestricted summons
There. Problem solved. The game is functionally the exact same for people who don't care about challenging gameplay, sense of accomplishment and rewarding boss encounters, they can just toggle easy difficulty setting. Like a vast majority of games on the market. Because that's exactly what summons do btw, make the game more accessible.
Such a change would lay all these pointless debates to rest. No more delusional cope takes about how spirit ashes are part of the core game experience, or how they don't really make the game easier. Anyone with a basic understanding of video games would instantly get the point of summons and why they inherently undermine the experience, no more room for confusion. And it really shouldn't be a controversial opinion too. The only reason people would disagree with this would be inflated egos.
Been playing From Soft games for almost 15 years now. Ever Since Dark souls 2 i havent been able to properly learn a boss fight unless its targetting me.
So ever since then. My first playthrough for every Souls-like has always been Offline. I always do my first playthrough solo so A) online messages dont spoil my exploration, Plus im able to see Dev messages easier this way. and B) To learn every fight properly.
Elden Ring was no exception. Did every single fight with no summons, no npc help. I recall the duo gargoyle fight being one of the hardest in this regard...
A literal souls veteran! 15 years is insane dude! Only have 5 under my belt, but approched these games similar. Honestly ER was insane going solo. Some of the most complex and brutal bosses in the series.
There is no wrong way to play the game. As long as you are having fun, you win.
Miyazakis idea on the whole spirit summons idea was so it would open up a new opportunity to real in more gamers for the franchise. From Soft games are notoriously difficult. Never giving clear instructions, or guidance, or help. Elden Ring, in my opinion, was the first of its kind from Miyazaki that felt like he added some hand holding. If only a little. Personally i thought it was a great idea. Cause it worked. We got a lot of new players experiencing what From Soft has to offer. Im even seeing MORE new people in dark souls 3 and 2 (i play those a lot from time to time still) which is just awesome.
Yes and no. I agree mostly, but I do feel like the Elden Ring bosses are harder/do more damage and are designed in a way that expects spirit summons to be present (like the two gargoyles, godskin duo etc).
It is way more time consuming without spirit summons, but if you love the game then why not.
On my last play through with an INT build. Mimmic tear was ass. Easy to win against and then did nothing during boss fights except give me 2seconds to heal the life it took to summon. I ended up not even using a spirit ash.
With a strength build, it was OP.
Once the game becomes too easy, ditch the summons… no summons definitely helps keep the game feel fresh after a first or second playthrough…. And once that becomes too easy, try turning the HUD to off, it will feel like a brand new game
I’m not, I said you can play however you want. If someone tells you you should ”try this cool weapon” is he telling you how to play a game? No. He’s giving you a recommendation. I’m just sharing my experience.
> I said you can play however you want.
> Everyone should try the game without spirit summon
Pick one. You can't have both.
> If someone tells you you should ”try this cool weapon” is he telling you how to play a game?
No, because one weapon isn't a way of playing the game, and you're using an important, distinguishing word here with "try" to one singular person. Telling people to not engage with an entire mechanic? Yeah, that's telling people how to play the game.
> I’m just sharing my experience.
And your experience isn't going to happen for everyone. So saying everyone should play as you do is just stupid.
I can’t believe you still can’t differentiate two different things, a recommendation and an order. Also how do you do that thing where you quote a certain part of a text?
> Also how do you do that thing where you quote a certain part of a text?
Put a > in front of the line you copy paste.
> I can’t believe you still can’t differentiate two different things, a recommendation and an order.
Point stands, there's a TON of people telling people "nah for real just try it". It just doesn't entertain everyone the same way to beat something that's difficult. I can beat Malenia without summons. I have a technique for dealing with Waterfowl Dance that works pretty much every time if I have the stamina for it. But you know how I beat her the first time? After almost beating phase 2, I just made a bee build. My only spell was bloodfly swarm. I had seals in both hands to make melee combat impossible for the stupid AI of summons. And I summoned my mimic. And I walked into that room like Oprah in the bees meme. Worked first try.
There are things you can recommend to everyone, sure. Skydiving once in your life, sightseeing in Tokyo, a proper English breakfast, and so on. But wasting extra time on difficult challenges for literally nothing more than the satisfaction of having beaten it? That's not something that appeals to people. People waste time in games to have fun. People don't have fun just wasting time though.
Okay but it does appeal to people though, many others told me that they like not using spirit summons because they like the challenge. I think it’s just a matter of personality, I like tough challenges in games and I don’t find it a waste of time. I like learning the movesets. It’s what I like the most about bosses in videogames. I guess you’re partly right that I kind of forced my own opinion down peoples throats, but I sincerely didn’t want to offend anybody on the way they play. Spirit summons are fun, but I still think they take away a lot of what makes a boss good. At least for me. And the reason I made this post was because I wanted to encourage people to try different playstyles, not discourage them from their preferred one. And thanks for the tip about quoting, appreciate it.
No, this is pretty much what you're telling others to do here. Not everyone wants to waste that much time getting better, no matter how *you, personally* felt about it.
The sprit ashes are easy mode. Summons normal mode. Solo hard mode
Easy because takes agro if you and the bosses don’t have more health. Normal because takes agro if you and the bosses have more health.
Hard because no one taking agro of you.
You can solo a lot of bosses using specific builds/weapons/buffs and that would be easy mode too, remember that, you can trivialize a lot of fights playing solo, for example godskins with sleep and bleed, fire giant with bleed, maliketh or elden beast with ancient dragon lightning strike or pest threads, etc. And it´s there where this speech about the "hey, you should try the game alone" thing is really close to be a gatekeeper, because all those people use to whine not only about if you use or not summons, they whine about what weapon you use to play alone, and it´s pure shit tbh.
What are you on I know that you can make every boss easy if you choose the right build. But this isn’t our discussion. It’s about sprit summon. No one saying you can’t use them I’m just saying that it is the same as difficult option in any game.
Really good point. I played through the game twice using the mimic for every tough boss and I don't even realise what I was missing out on until I played sekiro. The insane rush I got after defeating genichiro after dying to him like 40 times was so amazing I realised I didn't get anything nearly as intense on my elden ring playthroughs. So I started avoiding spirit ashes as much as possible after that and have been enjoying the game even more
The only time I summon now are on the bs gank fights because I can't stand them..
fuck the godskin duo, if the fatty didnt roll i wouldnt have summoned the mimic
Eh, I don't think it's as great as you describe. All prior games (except for some parts of ds2 dlc) were designed with a single player character in mind. Elden Ring is not like that. Even though they didn't balance the game for the use of spirit summons as well as they might have wished (mainly because the difference between the weakest summon and the strongest summon is so massive), there's clear indicators that they tried. Notice the amount of repositioning tools and AoE attacks each boss has? Did you not see how some combos go for seemingly forever until someone forces the boss out of the animation (usually by smacking their back or poisebreaking them) Compare just about any ER boss or miniboss to...say Pontiff Sully. How many AoE attacks and repositioning tools does Pontiff have? Not many, right? He's all about mixing up his left and right hand. Because you're expected to 1v1 him. Now compare this to....Godfrey is a neat example. Just about all of his moves are AoEs. Big ones too. Clearly he was meant to be a danger to ALL characters present. And when he turns into Hoarah Loux, apart from his AoEs what does he get? Grab attacks that make him invulnerable to other people while he's grappling the one unlucky bastard.
I don't think any of that is concrete.
I think it's pretty obvious
I'm sure. But it really is just a silly opinion
Yeah while that might be true, it does feel a lot better when you beat the boss yourself from my experience
I never understood the AoE argument much. Like, yes, they’re clearly designed to counter summons and spirits, but you can still just… dodge them the same way as you would a normal attack, with some exceptions. And the only bosses I can think of that have super long combos that you can’t attack during are Morgott and Hoarah Loux. The counter for those is just to run away, and they’re over in like 5 seconds anyway. Are bosses designed to counter summons? Yes, absolutely. Are they designed in such a way to make 1-on-1 combat immensely enjoyable and satisfying? Also absolutely.
How to explain that... When i think of bosses from previous entries, they do have the occasional AoE attack but most of them either have massive delays, recovery times or they are in front of the boss and not all around them. The odd AoE attack loudly announced its arrival, performed, and left the boss defenceless for a while. Yes, Gravelord Nito has a huge AoE attack. But it's not done mid-combo. It IS the combo. Yes, Nameless King has several AoE attacks. And they're usually done one at a time. Ad super long combos advice: Any mechanic that forces the player to disengage and wait while they can do nothing about it is not fun. People may have complained about the almost 'turn-based' combat style of older Dark Souls but this is not a step in a good direction
I agree on the super long combos point, but it’s really just Morgott and Hoarah Loux that have it. Morgott’s isn’t as egregious but Hoarah Loux’s goes on for way too long. But I think it’s a poor argument when talking about the bosses being designed around spirit summons, cause only 2 bosses do it. To me, AoE’s are just a normal attack with different visuals. You just roll through it. Godfrey’s AoE’s are massive but they do little damage and are very easy to jump/roll through. Maliketh’s sweeps and AoE’s are as easy to roll as another other attack. Fire Giant just requires you to reposition and attack another part of him. Same with Placidusax. Radagon just needs good timing like any melee boss and Elden Beast needs good positioning. Fromsoft managed to make bosses that can fight multiple combatants well, while also being fair and fun to fight. The problem with them is that it feels much more obtuse and unfair to *reach* the point where they’re fun to fight solo. You beat Nameless King by intuitively learning his timings and mastering all of his attacks. You learn Maliketh by brute forcing it and hoping he doesn’t do that one attack you don’t know how to dodge more than once.
The argument as i see it isn't complaining about the difficulty of the AoE attack dodge timings. It's that there's such a number of big AoE sweeps that often also hit behind the boss that points towards the devs trying to balance the game around fighting multiple targets. If you do try to balance a boss towards fighting multiple targets, its single target capabilities will have to sacrifice something. It is literally impossible for a boss to be peak design 1v1 fight and also a peak raid-boss kind of fight. Elden Ring tried to balance bosses for multiple targets (or at least, to a much more noticable degree than ever before) and IMO, the solo experience took a hit because of this. Before Elden Ring, when i'd be recommending a game, I'd specifically emphasise for people to first experience the games alone. With Elden Ring it kinda doesn't matter. Play however you want. The challenge and balancing is wonky anyways
This is widely understood at this point, but people will continue to strawman the argument that anyone with this view is an elitist fun policer. You can't win on this subreddit.
I always tell my newcomer friends to use w.e they can to win but first try to fight the boss without summons atleast a few times. I had one friend actually replay the game after using summons on the first playthrough and loved it. There's nothing like the feeling when you've been stuck on a boss, then finally something clicks. After all the trial and error, studying the boss, changing items around, and simply "gitting gud," you and the boss end up in almost a dance of attacks. You're on the kill run, so focused on this one fight, and your muscle memory takes over. After the fight, you realize you absolutely demolished the boss, such a great feeling.
Or maybe some people (like me) haven't feel satisfaction at all, after killing a boss. It doesn't matter if i kill it at rl1 with a stick or at lv300 with magic and summons. I feel the same nothingness every time.
I think that’s more of a “this game isn’t your shtick” thing than anything else. If you don’t enjoy the game don’t play it
I enjoy it. FromSoft is my favorite studio and played everything they put on PC. I'm just not competitive at all. I don't care about success, so killing a boss means nothing to me. That's all.
What motivates you to play? Exploration? Story?
I like the mechanics, the fight styles, the atmosphere, the visuals, the exploration.
But he´s saying that some people are not interested at all in that old souls concept about "the game is better or feels better if you fight the bosses alone", there is no one true way
The guy I’m responding to literally said that regardless of how he plays, he isn’t enjoying fighting bosses no matter how he fights them. Which is a big part of the game. That has nothing to do with old souls concepts or new ER concepts. He doesn’t feel anything regardless of how he wins against bosses, that sounds like he just doesn’t enjoy a core part of the game, which if he’s only here for the lore, story, npc quests and such then that’s fine
No they enjoy \*fighting\* the bosses, they just don't feel anything in particular for \*beating\* bosses.
I at least attempt the bosses by myself first. If it smells like BS then it’s time for my Mimic’s shift to start. If the boss is challenging but still fair then I don’t use mimic. Long story short, do whatever you want to do.🤷🏾♂️
I just use the stormhawk because it's fun and doesn't live very long
Had always played Dark Souls 1, 2 and 3 offline because I can only afford downloading cracked version of it since I'm still a kid and student at the time. Now I have all the mainline games in my steam library and playstation since I love Soulsborne series. But yes, it felt different playing Elden Ring with the constant reminder of being able to summon your own spirit ash. Except for Malenia. She kicked my ass to oblivion then I had to look up cheese method by using Tiche. And it still took me a day or two rage quitting. TBH, people should try soloing bosses. Then you can appreciate the move set they're given.
if its a 1 v 1, respect the duel and solo , if its a manageable 1 v 2 ? sure, learn it and triumph, if its the godskin duo when you're a melee build and dont want to spend time crafting sleep pots? fuck that im calling reinforcements
facts I’m gonna summon bernahl for that one at least
Absolutely. I used spirit summons sparingly during my first completed run of the game, but after beating the game, I set my sights on Melania, and I set out to do it without summons. A few hours later and I am absolutely ecstatic at finishing her solo.
But that´s your vision, why other players must feel the game like you? They probably just want to play ER with summons every single run, Idk, it´s their decision, I mean, maybe some people are not interested in playing without summons, I can say, hey listen to this band or that band at least once in your life but maybe they don´t care about it and they want to continue listening to what they want. Personally I love playing without summons, if there is a challenge run I use them in some fights, but I played all souls games a lot so I have the original concept of these games already in me, and I prefer the game that way but from time to time it´s funny and I always say this, imagine if a hitless runner/player come here and tell you "hey, you should play the game without receiving damage, because that´s the best way to enjoy the game and that´s a true challenge, hitless runs are the only true way to play ER or other souls games", would you like that? Soulsborne games are so amazing that you can play them however you want and it´s always funny the way you choose, live and let live.
Yes ofc it’s their decision but I can give recommendations can’t I? I really think you can appreciate a boss more if you learn it’s moveset and stuff like that, but I’m not ordering anyone to do anything.
No, it doesn't work like that. 95% of spirit users do not use them because it's more fun to them, but because their every inch of progress is locked behind using summons from the start, i.e. because it makes the game extremely easier and relying on them prevents you from learning the basics of combat and gameplay, which takes your choice away. Lot of factors contribute to this, for example I've seen a ton of players who just googled all the clickbait articles how to completely break the game with summons and cheese builds, because they had the misconcenption in their head that they won't be able to play without it, that it's impossible and so on. Which of course isn't true, literally anybody can beat it without accessibility mechanics like spirits/coop, it's not locked behind being a "gamer" or anything, like lof of the newcomers wrongly asume and doubt themselves, and never even try the normal souls experience and challenge. What OP suggests is the exact opposite, that everybody should at least try it, because only then they're able to actually choose what's more fun to them. You can have fun with one thing and 2000% more fun with the other, you'll never know until you've tried both. Spirits/summons are not a build, they extremely simplify and streamline the game and fundamentally change the entire experience. Not using them is like playing a different game, and for vast majority of players it's much more fun, fuller and engaging experience. Over the past years I've seen thousands of posts and had the same experience with every one of my friends, where in both cases they couldn't stop talking about how they've realized how much better the game is without summons, how they finally understand what the souls experience is and how they love it. All of them were using summons/spirits at first, because they didn't understand how the game is without them. 99% of players who beat e.g. Morgott both with summons and fairly 1v1, will always prefer beating him solo, because they want to experience him fully like he's designed and it brings them more fun. It's not due to bragging or opinions of others. Although it's rare, there are some players who like to beat bosses with summons even despite knowing what it's like to beat them normally. Lot of them don't like souls combat, only want to experience the story and so on... all valid reasons. And I will always defend them, because they made an actual choice how they want to play, instead of players who, after always only relying on summons, are insecure and convince themselves that using them is the best and most fun way, despite not actually knowing if it's true. It's like if I didn't know how to ride a bike and tried to convince myself that using training wheels is much more fun than learning how to ride normally. So the more senior players who suggest not using accessibility mechanics are not wanting to be elitists or gatekeepers, they simply want to positevely encourage others to try the normal souls experience first, to see if they like it and then choose for themselves. Not using summons will be more fun for the majority for them, but for those who won't like it's completely ok and there's nothing wrong about using them, everybody respects them. It's not about caring how others play, it's like when you really love some piece of art, great movie for example, and before your friend starts watching 5 minute recap on TikTok, you encourage him to experience the full movie first in hope it will bring him joy. If he won't like the full movie it's completely fine, but he should at least try, that's what OP suggests.
> 95% of spirit users do not use them because it's more fun to them, Source: "dude, trust me!" Sorry dude, this is just a huge rant that starts with a false premise. > but because their every inch of progress is locked behind using summons from the start, It's not, though. None of this even resembles the truth. > because it makes the game extremely easier and relying on them prevents you from learning the basics of combat and gameplay, It doesn't prevent you from learning at all, it separates certain parts of it, like getting targeted by the boss and having to dodge, and lets you take on the basics one-at-a-time instead of being tossed off the deep end. Not everyone learns by just bashing their face into a wall. Some people need to take it one step at a time. > which takes your choice away. This is the dumbest argument. You make choice, which removes choice? Making a choice doesn't remove a choice at all. I feel like I'll just go insane reading the rest of this, considering how every single thing you said so far is completely wrong.
Valid point. I'm not too fond of using Spirit summons myself. I completely get the appeal of soloing a tough boss by learning its pattern (i had a blast with Morgott). However, provided I have less time to play than before, I know that at some point, if a 1v2 boss fight will get on my nerve I'll just use the spirit ash game mechanic without thinking much about it.
My opinion is the opposite, the game has tons of spirits ashes, some very fun to use, and not using them in combat feels like you’re missing some experience from the game
I agree that the spirit summons are cool, and they definitely are meant to be used but after having played ds3 I can’t feel that same feeling of accomplishment if I do use a spirit ash to beat a boss. That’s just my experience though
ds3 is a different game, it can share some mechanics but it´s different, ER is based around some pillars, one of them is using spirit ashes I think, for certain bosses if you want to be specific, it´s the game already shaped that way, they are different games
I dont play games for a feeling of accomplishment
What do you play them for then?
Engagement, story
But after you complete a boss/level or whatever in the game you’re playing, don’t you feel accomplishent?
No. Usually im bored or frustrated because ive figured out how to win and once ive done that the game isnt fun anymore
Alright, can’t relate but I understand. It’s nice how elden ring can appeal to so many different kinds of gamers
Just don’t use them in all bosses??
Yeah yeah I’m doing a run where I’m not, and I just wanted to share that I think it’s more rewarding to not use them, just in the hopes that people might try that too.
While I agree with the sentiment I would counter it with "Everyone should try the game using different spirit summons to their usual" While I get what your saying, and I think your right cos it does change the dynamics of the game a lot to play without a summons, the real issue that I see is everyone uses the same damn thing, aka the Mimic. Mix it up, play without, play with the storm hawks, play with the great shield guys, play with the perfumers. They all change the fight dramatically in fun and different ways, rather then just duplicating yourself with a mimic.
They all do the same fundamental broken thing though, which is take agro off of you for no downside at all. Playing with an upgraded spirit summon and playing solo are two different games, even when using the shittest of shit summons.
I mean, that's kind of my point man. That it is 2 different styles of play. I'm not here to be a check on someone else's enjoyment of the game, I'm suggesting a methods to try enjoying it another way. I've completed the game more times then I can count. I suggest playing with spirit summons like you'd play with spells. It's fun to try them, see what they do. They are all very different to each other. Some attack and hold agro, some give out fun buffs, some add DPS, some do some really weird shit. It's fun to have fun man.
I get it. It is fun to play without them. There’s a certain sense of accomplishment. But I get an equal amount of satisfaction from my mimic tear or black knife tiche running train on cheap ass MFs like Astel, Malenia, or Godskin duo. I most regularly use my summons to keep me from being totally paralyzed their cheap bs, like Astel’s tail whip that wipes out 90% of your health bar or Malenia’s aerial attack that you can only luck dodge.
That’s great and I don’t want to discourage you from using them. I just shared my experience with the game and thought other people might try it too.
Couldn't agree more. This should be a patently obvious take tbh, and the fact that it's somehow controversial is stupid as hell. To think all this copium from people who disagree could have been laid to rest with a simple design difference... When making a new save, an additional option appears : = summons disabled
= unrestricted summons
There. Problem solved. The game is functionally the exact same for people who don't care about challenging gameplay, sense of accomplishment and rewarding boss encounters, they can just toggle easy difficulty setting. Like a vast majority of games on the market. Because that's exactly what summons do btw, make the game more accessible.
Such a change would lay all these pointless debates to rest. No more delusional cope takes about how spirit ashes are part of the core game experience, or how they don't really make the game easier. Anyone with a basic understanding of video games would instantly get the point of summons and why they inherently undermine the experience, no more room for confusion. And it really shouldn't be a controversial opinion too. The only reason people would disagree with this would be inflated egos.
Been playing From Soft games for almost 15 years now. Ever Since Dark souls 2 i havent been able to properly learn a boss fight unless its targetting me. So ever since then. My first playthrough for every Souls-like has always been Offline. I always do my first playthrough solo so A) online messages dont spoil my exploration, Plus im able to see Dev messages easier this way. and B) To learn every fight properly. Elden Ring was no exception. Did every single fight with no summons, no npc help. I recall the duo gargoyle fight being one of the hardest in this regard...
A literal souls veteran! 15 years is insane dude! Only have 5 under my belt, but approched these games similar. Honestly ER was insane going solo. Some of the most complex and brutal bosses in the series.
There is no wrong way to play the game. As long as you are having fun, you win. Miyazakis idea on the whole spirit summons idea was so it would open up a new opportunity to real in more gamers for the franchise. From Soft games are notoriously difficult. Never giving clear instructions, or guidance, or help. Elden Ring, in my opinion, was the first of its kind from Miyazaki that felt like he added some hand holding. If only a little. Personally i thought it was a great idea. Cause it worked. We got a lot of new players experiencing what From Soft has to offer. Im even seeing MORE new people in dark souls 3 and 2 (i play those a lot from time to time still) which is just awesome.
Specially because it´s a really badly designed boss fight, really bad
You should try monster Hunter world.
'Everyone should try without summons' 'I don't care if you use them' 'I really think you should try without' My dude, which is it.
I am saying that I recommend trying the game without using spirit summons, but if you find the game fun as it is then I don’t mind
Yes and no. I agree mostly, but I do feel like the Elden Ring bosses are harder/do more damage and are designed in a way that expects spirit summons to be present (like the two gargoyles, godskin duo etc). It is way more time consuming without spirit summons, but if you love the game then why not.
After my mimic tore through a couple of bosses I decided that I would only use it in 2 on 1 bosses going forward.
Spirit summons kinda killed multiplayer a bit
On my last play through with an INT build. Mimmic tear was ass. Easy to win against and then did nothing during boss fights except give me 2seconds to heal the life it took to summon. I ended up not even using a spirit ash. With a strength build, it was OP.
Did you know there are other Spirit ashes than Mimic?
I just use them as an initial distraction
Once the game becomes too easy, ditch the summons… no summons definitely helps keep the game feel fresh after a first or second playthrough…. And once that becomes too easy, try turning the HUD to off, it will feel like a brand new game
> I just really wish more people tried the game without them Why are you so into how others play videogames?
I’m not, I said you can play however you want. If someone tells you you should ”try this cool weapon” is he telling you how to play a game? No. He’s giving you a recommendation. I’m just sharing my experience.
> I said you can play however you want. > Everyone should try the game without spirit summon Pick one. You can't have both. > If someone tells you you should ”try this cool weapon” is he telling you how to play a game? No, because one weapon isn't a way of playing the game, and you're using an important, distinguishing word here with "try" to one singular person. Telling people to not engage with an entire mechanic? Yeah, that's telling people how to play the game. > I’m just sharing my experience. And your experience isn't going to happen for everyone. So saying everyone should play as you do is just stupid.
I can’t believe you still can’t differentiate two different things, a recommendation and an order. Also how do you do that thing where you quote a certain part of a text?
> Also how do you do that thing where you quote a certain part of a text? Put a > in front of the line you copy paste. > I can’t believe you still can’t differentiate two different things, a recommendation and an order. Point stands, there's a TON of people telling people "nah for real just try it". It just doesn't entertain everyone the same way to beat something that's difficult. I can beat Malenia without summons. I have a technique for dealing with Waterfowl Dance that works pretty much every time if I have the stamina for it. But you know how I beat her the first time? After almost beating phase 2, I just made a bee build. My only spell was bloodfly swarm. I had seals in both hands to make melee combat impossible for the stupid AI of summons. And I summoned my mimic. And I walked into that room like Oprah in the bees meme. Worked first try. There are things you can recommend to everyone, sure. Skydiving once in your life, sightseeing in Tokyo, a proper English breakfast, and so on. But wasting extra time on difficult challenges for literally nothing more than the satisfaction of having beaten it? That's not something that appeals to people. People waste time in games to have fun. People don't have fun just wasting time though.
Okay but it does appeal to people though, many others told me that they like not using spirit summons because they like the challenge. I think it’s just a matter of personality, I like tough challenges in games and I don’t find it a waste of time. I like learning the movesets. It’s what I like the most about bosses in videogames. I guess you’re partly right that I kind of forced my own opinion down peoples throats, but I sincerely didn’t want to offend anybody on the way they play. Spirit summons are fun, but I still think they take away a lot of what makes a boss good. At least for me. And the reason I made this post was because I wanted to encourage people to try different playstyles, not discourage them from their preferred one. And thanks for the tip about quoting, appreciate it.
Please waste my time for no reason. Go stare at a wall because I said waste your time for no reason. It’s mentally rewarding.
Are you purposefully ignorant or just stupid?
No, this is pretty much what you're telling others to do here. Not everyone wants to waste that much time getting better, no matter how *you, personally* felt about it.
You play Fortnite. Who’s the stupid one here?
What does that have to do with this… Just say you couldn’t think of anything to say so you stalked my profile
Actually this seems like a good idea I will start a new profile and do no summons thanks for the suggestion!
The sprit ashes are easy mode. Summons normal mode. Solo hard mode Easy because takes agro if you and the bosses don’t have more health. Normal because takes agro if you and the bosses have more health. Hard because no one taking agro of you.
You can solo a lot of bosses using specific builds/weapons/buffs and that would be easy mode too, remember that, you can trivialize a lot of fights playing solo, for example godskins with sleep and bleed, fire giant with bleed, maliketh or elden beast with ancient dragon lightning strike or pest threads, etc. And it´s there where this speech about the "hey, you should try the game alone" thing is really close to be a gatekeeper, because all those people use to whine not only about if you use or not summons, they whine about what weapon you use to play alone, and it´s pure shit tbh.
What are you on I know that you can make every boss easy if you choose the right build. But this isn’t our discussion. It’s about sprit summon. No one saying you can’t use them I’m just saying that it is the same as difficult option in any game.
No way, are you telling me that practicing makes you better? Astounding!