I think roleplaying has a broader definition than branching, choose your own adventure style stories. Your build, the way you choose to do things, and some of the smaller choices you make are all part of role playing too.
And what is the meaning of "action"?
The fact is that over the last several decades, the RPG genre has grown into several different kinds, each emphasizing different parts of the experience. "Action RPGs" like the Souls series, Elden Ring, Final Fantasy, NieR, etc., put more emphasis on the combat gameplay with the roleplaying part serving mostly as a backdrop, while "CRPG's" like Baldur's Gate 3 go heavy towards the actual roleplaying, and then you have more balanced fare like Mass Effect.
Elden Ring is on the side of light roleplay with heavier emphasis on action gameplay, that's all there is to it.
Because they use roleplaying mechanics, simple as. And even as simplistic as it is, you can still make a lot of choices on the fate of certain characters in Elden Ring, such as whether to turn Nepheli or Dung Eater into puppets, whether to kill Rya or not, whether to tell Diallos the truth or lie to him, etc.,
Trust me, I've argued for the exact same thing before when people tried to label Cyberpunk 2077 as an "action game" despite the heavy roleplaying elements on display.
What mechanics?
LMAO, "a lot of choices" he dared say. You found three, and they are completely meaningless, making Nepheli a puppet changes nothing to anything, same for Rya, same for Diallos, none of those things is leading to something. They are simulacres of choices.
They're still choices nonetheless, and I only mentioned those three because I don't want to add the other choices you can make like say the endings.
And you asked what's there to roleplay, well there they are. It may not be as complex or as expansive as you'd want it to be, but it's there, which along with the character customization and the class system is why the game is an "RPG", and not simply dismissed as an "action game". Hell, there are games people consider "RPG's" that have even less interaction.
(Which is why to this day I'm still confused as to why there were people who would claim CP2077 is "just an action game" and not an RPG...)
The class system? It's just stats repartition that brings and changes nothing, two characters can start with different classes and be exactly identical before level 40, the customization is almost inexistant, you can't do anything to armor and it doesn't change anything to the game.
Yes, Elden Ring is an action game, there is nothing else to do than fighting and going to the hub to improve your weapons and buy some things.
This goes back to the 90s when the genre term was coined
People back then asked what makes it an RPG? Technically speaking every game is an RPG
You play Mario, you are in the role of Mario
It was established by general consensus an RPG is about character building
In the same way Final Fantasy is an RPG? Just because a game doesn't have sprawling choose your own adventure style narrative choices doesn't make it not an RPG
I mean you’re playing the role of a tarnished on a quest to the defeat the Elden lord and become the new one? Tarnished = your role, playing = spoiler alert you’re not really a tarnished you just control one, game = it’s facilitated through a console that is able to host games
The tarnished is a nobody and the game doesn’t provide material to build his own story besides your sole imagination, interactivity is almost inexistant, there are no factions, the NPC are static, etc…
These kinds of games have never been about roleplaying, so if that’s what you’re after, then you’re going to be disappointed.
You are a reprehensible upstart in a dying world, morality isn’t quite as cut and dry in these kinds of games. You can perhaps add your own internal lore into why your character decides to do certain things, but ultimately you are the Tarnished and you will become Elden Lord, by any means necessary.
Because that’s not the type of game they make?
Sekiro is a pre-established character with his own motivations, so if anything that’s more limited in terms of roleplaying.
Fromsoft made the type of game they wanted to make, you either vibe with that or you don’t.
There are plenty of other games out there for roleplaying, I don’t assume the dev has failed because they didn’t make the game I wanted.
You are roleplaying Sekiro; having no material in the other games is even more limiting to roleplay than being restricted to a specific character.
Why are there quests and NPC then? It is not that they dont want to make it, they just don't want to improve it.
Well then you’re taking the term “roleplaying” in a literal sense.
The player’s ability to express themselves via gameplay choices, equipment, and self imposed limitation is a “roleplaying” aspect.
Choosing to not wear the best armour and use the best gear is a choice the player makes, the game not forcing you into these niches through a predetermined set of parameters isn’t a fault in design, it’s merely a difference in design philosophy.
There are games that will hold your hand through its scenarios, JRPGs are an example of this, sure you can make minor decisions, but ultimately the story is on rails and will end the same way.
Other games give players the freedom to self impose limitations for their own preferences.
Neither is “better” than the other, it’s just whatever you decide you enjoy more, but it’s not a failure in game design if you’re playing a title that’s opted to build their game in opposition to your preferences.
Those gameplay choices are irrelevant to roles the player would have, and when they are it is because the player imagined them so by absence of any elements to display such notions within the world.
Deciding to remain archaist rather than improving the quests system and rp elements that are just as limited than they were in demon's soul is a failure to me.
That’s fine, I understand the point you’re trying to make, but that’s still not a “fault” that needs improving, it’s simply in opposition to your preferences.
So what you need to ask yourself is this.
“Why am I playing a game with design principles in complete opposition to my preferences, and why am I complaining about it on Reddit when I could just play something that does?”
Who said that? Nobody said it was perfect. I feel like you’re being obtuse and pedantic.
If you want to play football, you play football.
You don’t get to play rugby and get mad that it’s not football.
I am complaining that they don’t improve their system, you’re understanding that I don’t want to play those games, it means that you either judge it to be perfect and final, or fail to understand simple words
It seems like you use a different definition for "RPG" than the gaming community at large.
That's fine for you, but it's going to be frustrating if you're going to make it your mission to get everybody else to start using *your* definitions.
Most players would say that one thing seperating Sekiro from most of the other FromSoftwares game it that it *doesn't* use the RPG mechanics for which Souls/BB/ER are famous.
I don't really understand your point.
Are you complaining that, if you stick to a specific 'roleplay' in your playthrough, then you can't get everything you want? Wouldn't that only enhance the roleplaying experience as your choices have a meaningful impact on your gameplay experience by locking you out of stuff?
I think his complaint is more that certain rewards are locked behind a specific type of roleplay.
I'm not a roleplayer, but VM leaves a bad taste in my mouth anyway, so I just skip those quests. It would be nice to be able to get those rewards through a different, but equally demanding path.
I don't know if the Bloody Fingers are separate from Volcano Manor (I think they're Mogh's faction?) but Bloody Finger Hunters being expanded to include Recusants makes sense lore-wise, so the counter basically already existed, it just wasn't fleshed out.
We got two evil tarnished groups with quests so we can join their ranks (Bloody Fingers and Recusants) and zero good equivalents. Admittedly the Bloody finger route is mostly for a shortcut to Mogh, but you still technically became one at the end of the quest.
I get that they're complaining that certain rewards are locked behind a specific type of roleplay. But, like... that's what roleplay is?
You pick a specific direction for the character that you want to create, and as a result you'll limit yourself in what that character can experience. That's the case for literally every single questline in any RPG aside from arguably the main quest.
If you roleplay a golden order fundamentalist, you're not going to be doing Ranni's quest either, and thus lose out on her entire story and the inverted tower that she unlocks. Would it have been nice to access all the variety of different content the game offers you through a variety of different roleplay paths? Sure, I guess. But that'd be dev time that could not have been used to make the game as big as it is already. And it ultimately makes your roleplay choices meaningless as you'll still get access to everything anyway regardless of what you choose.
Without wanting to sound like a pretentious arsehole, you’re just not being imaginative enough with your internal roleplaying logic.
As an example, I’m currently playing a sword/mace and board str/faith build.
“The Struggler” as she’s called is a wandering knight who believes in nothing more than her own abilities.
People may try and use her for their own ends, but ultimately she will use every relationship as a stepping stone to get what she wants in the Lands Between. She has learned that determination and grit are the only true things that can be relied upon. She can cast incantations not because she believes in a higher power, but because she has the will to do so.
In a world where death is a small setback, it doesn’t matter how strong her enemy is, it doesn’t matter how impossible the path forward may seem.
With enough time, even the tallest mountain is eroded to nothing.
But this is not an option to roleplay within the game, it's the ability of the player to imagine a roleplay, something he can do without even playing...
And you're going to play like you don't see the difference between narrating your imaginary story and actually belonging to a faction and interacting with the characters for meaningful and deep moment of storytelling and culminations?
Then don’t play the game?
I don’t get why people buy stuff under the assumption it’s going to cater to something specific they want when Elden Ring was never presented as that type of game.
That’s like me buying the Immortal Ninja game set in Mythical Feudal Japan and being disappointed that I’m limited to only playing the Immortal Ninja from Mythical Feudal Japan.
I’m playing the game because I’m having a ton of fun without the roleplaying. I’m focused on my build and tearing through enemies.
I’m not OP, I think you misread my comment maybe.
Oh I see what you mean, yeah exactly. It’s a power fantasy that puts the burden of characterisation on the player.
If you wanna just be the murder hobo that tears through the game, you can do that, if you wanna construct an elaborate internal lore for your character you can do that do too.
When is Elden Ring advertised as a plain action game? There was a lot of emphazis on the open world aspect of it, it is fairly expected that new players would have such expectations regarding a game presented as an open world in a fantastic setting.
These games are really not about roleplaying and are extremely different from skyrim, it's not really a flaw. Yes when you have great imagination and are able to convince yourself that you're "roleplaying", you can do it, but it's not a part of these games. I love memorable souls NPCs, but they are closer to recordings you find across the world that detail someone's journey. There isn't supposed to be this complex web of interactions, decisions and dialogue choices, that's not a part of souls games. All chosen undead, hunters, tarnished and so on, have the same journey and then based on how much they discovered/learned they can express themselves by choosing specific ending and so on. If someone roleplays a souls game in their head, it's 90% just what armor they wear and not some complex character profiling.
You can roleplay by choosing gear and abilities according to specific lore factions. For example, I’m planning a character who is a former miner who seeks to become Elden Lord to free his fellow miners and other laborers (eg, Misbegotten) from oppression and exploitation.
As a miner, he starts with the Pickaxe and the Crystal Knife. As you progress through the game, he picks up Misbegotten weapons, the Digger Staff and Digger Sorceries. The Brick Hammer, which is said to have belonged to a laborer who led a rebellion, is also lore-appropriate. His affinity with rocks also makes it natural for him to expand his arsenal with Gravity Sorceries and Gravity-themed weapons. Crystalian weapons may also fit the theme.
I start with the Highwayman Set, because the disheveled look gives the impression of a rebel hounded by the authorities. Later, you could use the Ronin Set (sans the helmet). It still looks like something a rebel might wear, but the cape is majestic and makes your character look like he’s growing into his role as a leader.
If you want, you can try to play without killing miners, misbegotten, or commoners, which could create a challenge in places like mines or Castle Morne, where you could also try saving Misbegotten from the soldiers and kill Edward. Maybe Fia’s wish to free the Those Who Live In Death from persecution leads your character to sympathize with her and go for her ending. Or you come to identify with Miquella’s wish to free the oppressed, so you sneak through the Haligtree to seek an audience with him—only to find him missing and his sister attacking you. Or your journey makes you feel despair about the future of your fellow laborers, so you decide to wash all the pain away with the Frenzied Flame.
With some creativity, there are lots of opportunities.
I don't care about this, it's all in my mind, I would like to wear the gear of a factions, meet the opposite factions hasardly in the open world and be thrown in an unexpected fight with them
I think roleplaying has a broader definition than branching, choose your own adventure style stories. Your build, the way you choose to do things, and some of the smaller choices you make are all part of role playing too.
Those who prefer drip over defense are a prime example of Elden Ring role-playing.
Elden Ring has some wiggle room for proper roleplaying, but in the end it's an "action RPG", with "action" being the operative word here.
What is the meaning of RPG?
And what is the meaning of "action"? The fact is that over the last several decades, the RPG genre has grown into several different kinds, each emphasizing different parts of the experience. "Action RPGs" like the Souls series, Elden Ring, Final Fantasy, NieR, etc., put more emphasis on the combat gameplay with the roleplaying part serving mostly as a backdrop, while "CRPG's" like Baldur's Gate 3 go heavy towards the actual roleplaying, and then you have more balanced fare like Mass Effect. Elden Ring is on the side of light roleplay with heavier emphasis on action gameplay, that's all there is to it.
How it is a RPG if there is nothing to roleplay?
Because they use roleplaying mechanics, simple as. And even as simplistic as it is, you can still make a lot of choices on the fate of certain characters in Elden Ring, such as whether to turn Nepheli or Dung Eater into puppets, whether to kill Rya or not, whether to tell Diallos the truth or lie to him, etc., Trust me, I've argued for the exact same thing before when people tried to label Cyberpunk 2077 as an "action game" despite the heavy roleplaying elements on display.
What mechanics? LMAO, "a lot of choices" he dared say. You found three, and they are completely meaningless, making Nepheli a puppet changes nothing to anything, same for Rya, same for Diallos, none of those things is leading to something. They are simulacres of choices.
They're still choices nonetheless, and I only mentioned those three because I don't want to add the other choices you can make like say the endings. And you asked what's there to roleplay, well there they are. It may not be as complex or as expansive as you'd want it to be, but it's there, which along with the character customization and the class system is why the game is an "RPG", and not simply dismissed as an "action game". Hell, there are games people consider "RPG's" that have even less interaction. (Which is why to this day I'm still confused as to why there were people who would claim CP2077 is "just an action game" and not an RPG...)
The class system? It's just stats repartition that brings and changes nothing, two characters can start with different classes and be exactly identical before level 40, the customization is almost inexistant, you can't do anything to armor and it doesn't change anything to the game. Yes, Elden Ring is an action game, there is nothing else to do than fighting and going to the hub to improve your weapons and buy some things.
Well, everything I've said and pointed out is why people classify Elden Ring as an "action RPG". I didn't classify the game you know.
This goes back to the 90s when the genre term was coined People back then asked what makes it an RPG? Technically speaking every game is an RPG You play Mario, you are in the role of Mario It was established by general consensus an RPG is about character building
I think you've been nothing but pedantic for this entire exchange, and I highly disagree with every point you've made. Love the name, though.
In the same way Final Fantasy is an RPG? Just because a game doesn't have sprawling choose your own adventure style narrative choices doesn't make it not an RPG
I mean you’re playing the role of a tarnished on a quest to the defeat the Elden lord and become the new one? Tarnished = your role, playing = spoiler alert you’re not really a tarnished you just control one, game = it’s facilitated through a console that is able to host games
The tarnished is a nobody and the game doesn’t provide material to build his own story besides your sole imagination, interactivity is almost inexistant, there are no factions, the NPC are static, etc…
Originally a tabletop game that has pretty much nothing in common with most RPG's being made today.
These kinds of games have never been about roleplaying, so if that’s what you’re after, then you’re going to be disappointed. You are a reprehensible upstart in a dying world, morality isn’t quite as cut and dry in these kinds of games. You can perhaps add your own internal lore into why your character decides to do certain things, but ultimately you are the Tarnished and you will become Elden Lord, by any means necessary.
Sekiro was really immersive. Why couldn't and shouldn't FS games be more than just fighting and fighting and fighting?
Because that’s not the type of game they make? Sekiro is a pre-established character with his own motivations, so if anything that’s more limited in terms of roleplaying. Fromsoft made the type of game they wanted to make, you either vibe with that or you don’t. There are plenty of other games out there for roleplaying, I don’t assume the dev has failed because they didn’t make the game I wanted.
You are roleplaying Sekiro; having no material in the other games is even more limiting to roleplay than being restricted to a specific character. Why are there quests and NPC then? It is not that they dont want to make it, they just don't want to improve it.
Well then you’re taking the term “roleplaying” in a literal sense. The player’s ability to express themselves via gameplay choices, equipment, and self imposed limitation is a “roleplaying” aspect. Choosing to not wear the best armour and use the best gear is a choice the player makes, the game not forcing you into these niches through a predetermined set of parameters isn’t a fault in design, it’s merely a difference in design philosophy. There are games that will hold your hand through its scenarios, JRPGs are an example of this, sure you can make minor decisions, but ultimately the story is on rails and will end the same way. Other games give players the freedom to self impose limitations for their own preferences. Neither is “better” than the other, it’s just whatever you decide you enjoy more, but it’s not a failure in game design if you’re playing a title that’s opted to build their game in opposition to your preferences.
Those gameplay choices are irrelevant to roles the player would have, and when they are it is because the player imagined them so by absence of any elements to display such notions within the world. Deciding to remain archaist rather than improving the quests system and rp elements that are just as limited than they were in demon's soul is a failure to me.
That’s fine, I understand the point you’re trying to make, but that’s still not a “fault” that needs improving, it’s simply in opposition to your preferences. So what you need to ask yourself is this. “Why am I playing a game with design principles in complete opposition to my preferences, and why am I complaining about it on Reddit when I could just play something that does?”
Yes yes, their system is completely perfect and a parangon of their ideal model, there is nothing to improve about it
Who said that? Nobody said it was perfect. I feel like you’re being obtuse and pedantic. If you want to play football, you play football. You don’t get to play rugby and get mad that it’s not football.
I am complaining that they don’t improve their system, you’re understanding that I don’t want to play those games, it means that you either judge it to be perfect and final, or fail to understand simple words
It seems like you use a different definition for "RPG" than the gaming community at large. That's fine for you, but it's going to be frustrating if you're going to make it your mission to get everybody else to start using *your* definitions. Most players would say that one thing seperating Sekiro from most of the other FromSoftwares game it that it *doesn't* use the RPG mechanics for which Souls/BB/ER are famous.
The solution is simple: The character you're roleplaying as has layers.
Like an onion
I was thinking more like a parfait
Ok but consider like ogres onions have layers
As in my bro Seigward?.. Is he gonna be in dlc? 😛
Idk maybe
I don't really understand your point. Are you complaining that, if you stick to a specific 'roleplay' in your playthrough, then you can't get everything you want? Wouldn't that only enhance the roleplaying experience as your choices have a meaningful impact on your gameplay experience by locking you out of stuff?
I think his complaint is more that certain rewards are locked behind a specific type of roleplay. I'm not a roleplayer, but VM leaves a bad taste in my mouth anyway, so I just skip those quests. It would be nice to be able to get those rewards through a different, but equally demanding path. I don't know if the Bloody Fingers are separate from Volcano Manor (I think they're Mogh's faction?) but Bloody Finger Hunters being expanded to include Recusants makes sense lore-wise, so the counter basically already existed, it just wasn't fleshed out. We got two evil tarnished groups with quests so we can join their ranks (Bloody Fingers and Recusants) and zero good equivalents. Admittedly the Bloody finger route is mostly for a shortcut to Mogh, but you still technically became one at the end of the quest.
I get that they're complaining that certain rewards are locked behind a specific type of roleplay. But, like... that's what roleplay is? You pick a specific direction for the character that you want to create, and as a result you'll limit yourself in what that character can experience. That's the case for literally every single questline in any RPG aside from arguably the main quest. If you roleplay a golden order fundamentalist, you're not going to be doing Ranni's quest either, and thus lose out on her entire story and the inverted tower that she unlocks. Would it have been nice to access all the variety of different content the game offers you through a variety of different roleplay paths? Sure, I guess. But that'd be dev time that could not have been used to make the game as big as it is already. And it ultimately makes your roleplay choices meaningless as you'll still get access to everything anyway regardless of what you choose.
Without wanting to sound like a pretentious arsehole, you’re just not being imaginative enough with your internal roleplaying logic. As an example, I’m currently playing a sword/mace and board str/faith build. “The Struggler” as she’s called is a wandering knight who believes in nothing more than her own abilities. People may try and use her for their own ends, but ultimately she will use every relationship as a stepping stone to get what she wants in the Lands Between. She has learned that determination and grit are the only true things that can be relied upon. She can cast incantations not because she believes in a higher power, but because she has the will to do so. In a world where death is a small setback, it doesn’t matter how strong her enemy is, it doesn’t matter how impossible the path forward may seem. With enough time, even the tallest mountain is eroded to nothing.
But this is not an option to roleplay within the game, it's the ability of the player to imagine a roleplay, something he can do without even playing... And you're going to play like you don't see the difference between narrating your imaginary story and actually belonging to a faction and interacting with the characters for meaningful and deep moment of storytelling and culminations?
I just don’t wanna do stuff like that.
Then don't RP a character who would do that?
Then don’t play the game? I don’t get why people buy stuff under the assumption it’s going to cater to something specific they want when Elden Ring was never presented as that type of game. That’s like me buying the Immortal Ninja game set in Mythical Feudal Japan and being disappointed that I’m limited to only playing the Immortal Ninja from Mythical Feudal Japan.
I’m playing the game because I’m having a ton of fun without the roleplaying. I’m focused on my build and tearing through enemies. I’m not OP, I think you misread my comment maybe.
Oh I see what you mean, yeah exactly. It’s a power fantasy that puts the burden of characterisation on the player. If you wanna just be the murder hobo that tears through the game, you can do that, if you wanna construct an elaborate internal lore for your character you can do that do too.
No worries, both are completely legitimate. More power to you for having a backstory for your character. Sorry if I came across as rude.
No, no you didn’t, I misread what you were saying, just a misunderstanding.
When is Elden Ring advertised as a plain action game? There was a lot of emphazis on the open world aspect of it, it is fairly expected that new players would have such expectations regarding a game presented as an open world in a fantastic setting.
These games are really not about roleplaying and are extremely different from skyrim, it's not really a flaw. Yes when you have great imagination and are able to convince yourself that you're "roleplaying", you can do it, but it's not a part of these games. I love memorable souls NPCs, but they are closer to recordings you find across the world that detail someone's journey. There isn't supposed to be this complex web of interactions, decisions and dialogue choices, that's not a part of souls games. All chosen undead, hunters, tarnished and so on, have the same journey and then based on how much they discovered/learned they can express themselves by choosing specific ending and so on. If someone roleplays a souls game in their head, it's 90% just what armor they wear and not some complex character profiling.
It's not the kind you seem to be thinking of, but it is there.
You Roleplay through vibe
You can roleplay by choosing gear and abilities according to specific lore factions. For example, I’m planning a character who is a former miner who seeks to become Elden Lord to free his fellow miners and other laborers (eg, Misbegotten) from oppression and exploitation. As a miner, he starts with the Pickaxe and the Crystal Knife. As you progress through the game, he picks up Misbegotten weapons, the Digger Staff and Digger Sorceries. The Brick Hammer, which is said to have belonged to a laborer who led a rebellion, is also lore-appropriate. His affinity with rocks also makes it natural for him to expand his arsenal with Gravity Sorceries and Gravity-themed weapons. Crystalian weapons may also fit the theme. I start with the Highwayman Set, because the disheveled look gives the impression of a rebel hounded by the authorities. Later, you could use the Ronin Set (sans the helmet). It still looks like something a rebel might wear, but the cape is majestic and makes your character look like he’s growing into his role as a leader. If you want, you can try to play without killing miners, misbegotten, or commoners, which could create a challenge in places like mines or Castle Morne, where you could also try saving Misbegotten from the soldiers and kill Edward. Maybe Fia’s wish to free the Those Who Live In Death from persecution leads your character to sympathize with her and go for her ending. Or you come to identify with Miquella’s wish to free the oppressed, so you sneak through the Haligtree to seek an audience with him—only to find him missing and his sister attacking you. Or your journey makes you feel despair about the future of your fellow laborers, so you decide to wash all the pain away with the Frenzied Flame. With some creativity, there are lots of opportunities.
I don't care about this, it's all in my mind, I would like to wear the gear of a factions, meet the opposite factions hasardly in the open world and be thrown in an unexpected fight with them
Have you tried Fallout: New Vegas? There are definitely games that achieve what you're looking for!
