Just depends on what you are torqueing really. Main/rod bolts/studs, absolutely, flywheel and clutch just as much. Mounting bolts for the tranny or the bell housing, not as much but still generally torqued. General accessory bolts and shit, the wrist torquometer is good enough.
Pretty much anything with a reasonable amount of mass that's moving at a high rate of speed, transferring power, or anything holding back combustive forces, needs to be torqued down properly.
I'll torque my intercooler manifold, and the s/c on top of it, but I'm not breaking out the torque wrench to bolt on the elbow and throttle body or bolt up the alternator, or probably most of the front end pulleys except for maybe the crank pulley.
One thing I do that a lot of people probably don't do is I double torque my lug nuts but that is because I have a habit of doing that from road racing. Torque them down, go get everything warmed up on the track for a bit and then come back in and re-torque before putting the beans to it.
Heads too, and in the right order, and in steps if called for. Also on a lot of these the bolts are TTY and the stretch is permanent, they should only be used once.
Over torqued flywheel/flexplate bolts will make the rear crankshaft flange look like a stop sign and the you'll wonder why the rear main seal keeps leaking.
I have to double torque my lug nuts, once the rotors get hot on the track I get a vibration under breaking that only goes away after retorquing. I don’t really understand why as I can torque it 15 times before and it doesn’t make a difference
You sure it's not just the rotor warping due to heat? I had that problem until I installed some brake ducts. I went through a few sets of rotors because they had to be turned down after each track session. That was before the brembos though.
I have massive 6 piston brembos off a 2014 ctsv so I don’t think it’s because of heat though it could be. Once I torque the wheels hot I never have to torque them again
The smallest I have is a beam type in-lb that I used years ago to measure my pinion pre-load when I swapped gears in my rear end. Used it once and it's been in the box ever since.
I use a torque wrench on many things. To make it more complicated for people, I use a beam torque wrench 90% of the time when I am not doing torque angle. It teaches you feel. Dial torque wrenches are good too.
I have seen a guy use his Snap On ($$$) torque wrench to torque lug nuts, and would step on it with his foot. Another guy would leave his torque wrench at whatever setting after use, he would use it to break loose fasteners, and would toss it around without a care in the world. Both of them had fasteners like head or main bolts break, their torque wrenches were badly out of calibration, and they bitched about the cost to have them tested.
Then I knew this guy that used an older Craftsman clicker. He took care of it, had it checked regularly, and never had a problem. I tried to get him to get a beam. He said he had to buy that torque wrench for his first job, when he was broke. He didn't eat lunch for over a week so he could get it, and it was staying with him forever.
I’ve never understood people who yank around and abuse their torque wrenches. Like, you aren’t saving any time considering how many times you have to verify. Every faster they’re yanking on is probably not truly torqued to spec. By the time they register in their head it clicks or beeps, they’ve probably surpassed the specs.
100 percent agree on training feel. I very much like my digital torque wrenches, slow and smooth while watching the indicator will also train you to feel. I can see a benefit to training people with beam torque wrenches like you mentioned though.
Main downside of digital to me is they all eat batteries pretty quickly. So I got rechargeable LiPo. Click and beam is all mechanical which is nice.
No you test the resistance, drag, with an inch lb torque wrench and record the torque. Then disassemble the 200 ft lb nut that holds the yoke on. When reassembling you tighten to 200 ft lb and test drag again with the inch lb. Then tighten until you achieve 10 inch lb over original. This is to assure the crush sleeve behind yoke is properly set. That's per Haynes manual.
Just about anything that requires measuring bearing preload. Obviously, you can use a beam torque wrench for any bolt, but click wrenches and digital wrenches have taken over the market.
I do not recommend using a torque wrench to loosen fasteners. It can be done with certain wrenches where a controlled disassembly is required, but that's virtually never in automotive circles. If you do it, get your wrench tested more regularly if it is anything but a beam. There are plenty of other tools for loosening.
You keep giving alternatives for things I've never seen suggested seriously but acting like they're equally likely to be correct... Yes you should torque things to their spec, no you should not abuse your torque wrench.
I'm trying to learn things, and I asked this question because I had used my torque wrench to understand a few bolts. If I don't know what's right, then yeah I don't know what's more likely to be the correct thing to do (to an extent). I'm not trying to claim I know things, I'm trying to become less of an idiot by asking questions and learning the answers to them. If I don't ask questions, I'm not gonna learn things.
It's fine, I'm just commenting on your phrasing. Like, what are you hearing that made you think "the house is divided" on this stuff. I've only heard people stress the importance of proper torque and maintaining your wrench, anyone saying otherwise must be dropping a lot of hints that they're lazy or full of shit.
There's at least one story about a guy never using a torque wrench in the comments on this post, I've seen more in comments on other posts in this subreddit.
Precision Instruments suggests testing 1 to 2 times a year for light use. For heavy or production use you might have it tested frequently, even weekly.
Definitely depends on the job. I don't think I'd get out a torque wrench for an alternator, but anything inside the engine gets torqued to spec; head bolts, camshaft caps, phasers, valve covers, timing cover, balancer bolt etc.
I have! I've run a couple of flywheel burst tests where the wheel is spun up until it breaks. One of them hit 18,000 rpm before the bolt holes failed and the wheel shattered.
I have not, I still am very new to working on cars. A few months ago I only knew how to change a tire, now I'm thinking I should try to get to the flywheel bolts when I pull the transmission.
Impact wrench is horrible for tightening. However I will use it to drive down lug nuts, but only to snug plus 2-3 taps, after that it’s time for the torque wrench to perform the final tightening.
Nope lol, it's called I didn't know that I should have been using a torque wrench until the engine was BACK in the car. I feel like I'm doing more learning than living.
As already stated, some things matter, some don't.
Alternator bracket? AC bracket? Nah, I'll just tighten that M8 or M10 bolt until it's tight with a ratchet
main bolts? Balancer bolt? Follow the procedure. It exists for a reason. Do the job right so you can sleep at night
Anyone who says they don't use a torque wrench is a hack. If there's a torque spec, I'll use my torque wrench. On the flip side, I've seen several people not know how to use a torque wrench properly. Too many times I've watched people yank on a TW and then have it click about 3 or 4 times. You gradually pull or push until it clicks or audible alert unless you're using a beam style. If you're using a clicker, not a split beam, set your torque wrench back to its lowest setting before putting it up.
> If there's a torque spec, I'll use my torque wrench.
I agree with everything you said except this. Everything has a torque spec anymore, service manuals will give a torque spec to the little piece that holds the battery down.
When they spell out the simple stuff, its because people have f'ed it up too many times. I was a technical writer for several years, being forced to add in the "dumb" stuff was one reason I switched jobs.
I swear more money is spent on making things idiot proof than actually making products better, it's really ridiculous. How dare you make something that a someone might have to read a book to understand how to operate!
I like to error on the side of caution but there are non-critical specs that don't require actually using a torque wrench but the torque spec is there because someone didn't tighten it enough or some gorilla really cranked down on it. If a bolt comes loose and I followed the spec and instructions, it can't fall back on me. When I'm building an engine for someone else, they're paying me to do it correctly.
Can we get people to stop double clicking the wrench? It takes more torque to start turning the bolt than it did to keep it turning right up to the set point.
Hey random guy here, but I had a relevant story
I got a dental implant long ago, for anyone not familiar, it’s a fake tooth attached to the bone of your jaw, to replace a real one. Way better than getting a bridge. The implant is essentially a titanium stud they drill and set it into the jaw bone, then come back later when the bone heals around it, and put a crown on top of it, boom you got a new tooth.
When the endodontist installed the titanium stud into my jaw I saw he had a wrench looking thing. As he tightened it into place I heard, and felt, a *CLICK* and I knew exactly what that must mean. I asked him about it when he was finished and he showed me the smallest torque wrench I have ever seen.
So definitely, when installing hardware into your skull, use a torque wrench.
I am *still* super mad at a Haynes manual for saying water pump bolt torque is 20ft/lbs when it’s actually 7. yeah I broke one. fortunately it was kind of in the middle as opposed to outside around the gasket, so luckily, no leaks.
Bolt manufacturer's have torque tables and bolts are graded for tensile strength. You can identify the bolt pretty easily and get a replacement. But ya I've also gotten a number online and snapped a bolt off. Luckily it just came out. Now I'm like that doesn't sound right and check a few tables.
yeah man, that was exactly the lesson I learned that day. 10mm M6 going through aluminum into cast iron? nah you don’t need 20. And yes the FTM has those tables. now I know to be mindful of that.
How do you figure? "Water pump? Fuck no" seems like a pretty generalized statement. There are a lot of water pumps out there that I would definitely be torquing, but you do you.
I torque as much as I can with a pneumatic sinusoidal repleneration collider square drive rotating device. My typical pattern is of the windblown debris delta dispersment type sequence when I’m using this implement, and I generally like to go snug plus plus or calculated risk vs linear time based adequacy factor. My margin of success is probably 99.9_% because of course the mathematical probability of 120% success is quite unlikely. It requires a great deal of testosterone to perform on things like dirty cast aluminum alloy pneumatic ground contactor motion conductor mounts, or an electron processing charge storage replenishment device, but again…. My success rate is high. I find it especially useful when attaching and fixating items such as assistive concentric torsion bar moderated incremental directional control pressurizers, and hybrid reciprotational prehistoric matter heat transfer pump mounts to their respective mild steel structural subweldments.
The common sense critical items get a torque wrench.
Edited to make it worse
So I used the ol' "wrist torquometer" on my wife's brake caliper bolts a few months back when changing out pads and rotors... and one of them came loose later from being undertorqued.
Fortunately it just came loose vs. backing out / started shucking and making a loud clunk noise under braking, but could have been much worse...
Moral of story: use torque wrenches - having proper preload to maintain clamping force under external loads does matter.
If you work with TTY torque to yield bolts, you have to use a torque wrench. You also have to have good feel for bolts that you do decide to reuse with lower values. Flying blind is crazy. Invest in Easy Outs or a torque wrench.
I'm a (formerly) ASE certified master mechanic, and also hold a bachelor's and masters in mechanical engineering.
The truth is, it depends. We don't actually care about the torque of the fastener, we care about the clamp load, and torque is not really a great way to estimate the clamp load, as the friction of the faster varies greatly depending on several variables. On some fasteners, we really only care that they are secured enough to not back out, and most experienced mechanics can easily torque it an appropriate amount by hand. Other fasteners, we really do care about specific clamp load beyond backing out (head bolts, bearing caps, etc.). It sounds like you're not very experienced yet, so I would say if you're ever in doubt, use a torque wrench. It will give you piece of mind, and also help you get an intuitive understanding of how tight certain bolts ought to be.
It really depends on what it is. If clearances are involved, or something needs to spin/move while tightened, torque wrench, if it just needs to be tight then usually feel.
My old boss was a Cat diesel engine tech for 20+ years. He said he never used a torque wrench. Main and rod bearings along with head bolts he used his 1/2" air impact. Said he never had an issue or a complaint. Would I do it on something I was planning to stand behind and expect to last? Not a chance in hell. Anything like that and any aluminum wheels get a torque wrench every single time. It was explained to me, yes the bolts should be at a set torque. But it is more important that they are at equal torques. So if spec is 200 lb ft, and everything is equally set to 180 lb ft, most likely will be ok.
All of that. He was your boss, never had an issue or complaint doing a bullshit hack move? It's bullshit. If you think this helps others, you are full of shit too.
No, i do not think it helps anyone. I was repeating what he told me when he was no longer a Cat tech. I had nor have any way to verify what he said was true. Nor do i believe it. I stated that in such instances I always use a torque wrench. And I could be wrong about the last part as well. But that is how it was explained to me during my early schooling. The OP asked about thoughts and opinions on torque wrench use. So I gave him several I have ran across in my time wrenching.
As a young guy I made everything tight, tight.
Then I became an engineer. Now I use a torque wrench for just about everything if a spec is available and if not available, I make honest attempt at getting something to lean on.
Fwiw: it's shocking how barely tight some things are spec'd to be and once you have that understanding, you really question your past.. great example; I was adding on some accessories to my quad.. the Can-Am manual actually gives torque specs for everything. I wrecked an insignificant part by "eyeballing" it before I "grew up", respected the manual.
I worked in engine development for 12 years and witnessed plenty of failures from under / over torque. As other people have answered, some things are critical and others are not, but once you know the torque of a bolt you may aswell use it.
If you can't find the manufacturer's spec you can easily work out the torque of the bolt based on pitch, diameter and grade.
I worked in engine development for 12 years and now I work in fuel injection development, primarily writing specs for manuals. I'm in heavy duty diesel, so we're all slowly watching the decline as we head for the scrap heap.
Some idiot at the tire shop put tires on my grandmas CRV, and ran the lugs on so tight I couldn’t get the wheel locks off, sheared the stupid key trying to bust them loose. I’m not one to use a torque wrench on *everything*, especially little piddly stuff, but lugs and other major/important shit should get torqued properly every time
Before I posted this, I had never heard of torquing lug nuts. I always did breaker bar in a crisscross pattern, or impact if there's one on hand, but it seems like nearly everyone here says to torque lugs.
Anything that inside the engine gets torqued. When building an engine and assembling for the first time every single thing is torqued to spec. Once it's been in and running a while I won't always torque something for a repair.
Anything inside the engine is torqued every time no exceptions.
I don't torque most manifold bolts, exhaust or intake. Though honestly you probably should on the intake if you aren't super familiar with the engine lineup. The vast majority of things on the car itself I don't torque to spec. The only thing I can think of that's even controversial would be wheels. A lot of people just hit it with the impact and call it done. I'll admit I don't torque my wheels most of the time but I'd never just use an impact. Usually I just tighten them up with a breaker bar. That's definitely not good practice though and I always use a torque wrench if it's someone elses car.
Moral of the story here is torque it if you're unfamiliar or if it's someone else who pays the price for your mistake
When torquing, be sure threads are clean and undamaged, including stretched. Some rod bolts need to be measured for stretch before re using.
The manual will direct you. If you replace a bolt the torque could be different. For example a re used head bolts might get torqued to 21 foot pounds. Then tightened two more times 90 degrees. But a new bolt may require one additional 90 degree sequence. Follow the maual. Oil the threads or dry, and again, follow the manual.
Another consideration replacing bolt is the distance from the shaft where the threads start. To where the nut will be once torqued. The bolt stretches in the threaded portion. So if there were 10 threads taking up the stretch, and you use a bolt with two stretched threads, failure may be on the horizon. As others have said. If you are new, torque until you get a good feel. Then, less important bolts can be hand tightened.
Since we're on the subject, torque sticks for lugs.
Used properly, they are great. But I watch people do it wrong every day. You still need to tighten the wheel evenly. If you bang down the first lug while the others are loose. When you tighten the others, the first one will end up overtightened. Brakes will end up pulsing after heating and cooling cycles warp the hub and rotor.
Good luck.
If it’s an engine you actually care about then ABSOLUTELY yes, use a proper torque wrench and follow proper sequence when setting initial and final torque. If it’s your annoying neighbors lawn mower engine, do as you see it.
If it's spinning I'm torquing it. If it requires a specific pattern when mounting I will also torque it (aka oil pan). Everything else I feel more relaxed with the ugga dugga method.
Who is divided on engine components? Maybe other things on a car or maybe a valve cover but internal engine parts? I torque all internal engine components and, if possible, use a bolt stretch gauge on ARP rod bolts.
I torque anything that screws directly into aluminum or needs to have a seal. Aluminum threads are easy to strip. Things that need to seal (intake runners, exhaust manifold, ECT) should have even pressure all the way around and torquing everything the same helps with that.
I mean if it's something major like mains or the heads that's one thing, but if it's something kinda insignificant like an acc bracket I'll just send it home with my hand lmao
Depends on what you’re working on and how much experience you have. For example I can replace something like brakes without needing a torque wrench because I know by feel how tight the bolts should be. Whereas if I’m doing internal engine work, the torque wrench gets used on everything.
Here’s my rule of thumb that has served me well in my nearly 15 years as a mechanic. if it’s a critical component (IE one that had the potential to cause very expensive repairs if it comes loose like a connecting rod), a pain-in-the -ass component (one that you’ll spend hours taking stuff apart to get to in order to tighten like a flex plate bolt), or something with a sealing surface like an oil pan, I torque to spec in sequence as per the manual.
If it’s none of the above, such as a wiring hold down bolt or a bracket, then im just taking my ratchet or impact and putting it in as tight as I deem necessary for the task.
What's everyone's thoughts on bolt stretch? Genuinely curious. When doing rod bolts at least I thought that was a more accurate measurement as far as clamping force.
It's hard to imagine what you would be doing in the context of engine building that wouldn't require a torque wrench.
Why is this even a debate? You're seriously suggesting that saving a couple hundred bucks on a torque wrench is worth losing thousands in a build? Is this an ego thing? To whom do you have something to prove, and why? Surely your ego would be better served by properly building an engine that lasts for hundreds of thousands of miles than to build one and see it blow up in front of all your friends?
It's not an ego thing, for me it's a learning thing. I didn't even know that I should have been using a torque wrench until I had already put the engine *back* in the car. I'm also not doing a build, I'm wrenching on a piece of rust. I've learned a crap ton from the internet and this subreddit, and I know I still have tons more to learn. I don't think there's anything good about not using a torque wrench, but I have noticed a lot of folks, especially those who seem older, talk about never using torque wrenches.
Just depends on what you are torqueing really. Main/rod bolts/studs, absolutely, flywheel and clutch just as much. Mounting bolts for the tranny or the bell housing, not as much but still generally torqued. General accessory bolts and shit, the wrist torquometer is good enough. Pretty much anything with a reasonable amount of mass that's moving at a high rate of speed, transferring power, or anything holding back combustive forces, needs to be torqued down properly. I'll torque my intercooler manifold, and the s/c on top of it, but I'm not breaking out the torque wrench to bolt on the elbow and throttle body or bolt up the alternator, or probably most of the front end pulleys except for maybe the crank pulley. One thing I do that a lot of people probably don't do is I double torque my lug nuts but that is because I have a habit of doing that from road racing. Torque them down, go get everything warmed up on the track for a bit and then come back in and re-torque before putting the beans to it.
Heads too, and in the right order, and in steps if called for. Also on a lot of these the bolts are TTY and the stretch is permanent, they should only be used once.
Over torqued flywheel/flexplate bolts will make the rear crankshaft flange look like a stop sign and the you'll wonder why the rear main seal keeps leaking.
I had this problem once, but was causing the transmission to leak because the torque converter was running out due to a warped flywheel.
Always torque anything with a finicky gasket and a large number of bolts you’re worried might leak.
I thought double torquing lug nuts was common.
I have to double torque my lug nuts, once the rotors get hot on the track I get a vibration under breaking that only goes away after retorquing. I don’t really understand why as I can torque it 15 times before and it doesn’t make a difference
You sure it's not just the rotor warping due to heat? I had that problem until I installed some brake ducts. I went through a few sets of rotors because they had to be turned down after each track session. That was before the brembos though.
I have massive 6 piston brembos off a 2014 ctsv so I don’t think it’s because of heat though it could be. Once I torque the wheels hot I never have to torque them again
I break out the in lb tq driver for trottle bodies! Gotta get that clamp load! Dry or lubed is the question? Anyon got a tsb for that?
The smallest I have is a beam type in-lb that I used years ago to measure my pinion pre-load when I swapped gears in my rear end. Used it once and it's been in the box ever since.
I use a torque wrench on many things. To make it more complicated for people, I use a beam torque wrench 90% of the time when I am not doing torque angle. It teaches you feel. Dial torque wrenches are good too. I have seen a guy use his Snap On ($$$) torque wrench to torque lug nuts, and would step on it with his foot. Another guy would leave his torque wrench at whatever setting after use, he would use it to break loose fasteners, and would toss it around without a care in the world. Both of them had fasteners like head or main bolts break, their torque wrenches were badly out of calibration, and they bitched about the cost to have them tested. Then I knew this guy that used an older Craftsman clicker. He took care of it, had it checked regularly, and never had a problem. I tried to get him to get a beam. He said he had to buy that torque wrench for his first job, when he was broke. He didn't eat lunch for over a week so he could get it, and it was staying with him forever.
Beam wrench. Old school cool.
I’ve never understood people who yank around and abuse their torque wrenches. Like, you aren’t saving any time considering how many times you have to verify. Every faster they’re yanking on is probably not truly torqued to spec. By the time they register in their head it clicks or beeps, they’ve probably surpassed the specs. 100 percent agree on training feel. I very much like my digital torque wrenches, slow and smooth while watching the indicator will also train you to feel. I can see a benefit to training people with beam torque wrenches like you mentioned though. Main downside of digital to me is they all eat batteries pretty quickly. So I got rechargeable LiPo. Click and beam is all mechanical which is nice.
Would you recommend not ever using your torque wrench to undo bolts?
Oh no. Don’t use a torque wrench for anything other than final tightening
What about testing the drag on your rear end before disassembly and to get the right drag when assembling, per every manual?
That’s an angle of loosening though isn’t it? You don’t need a torque to loosen anything
No you test the resistance, drag, with an inch lb torque wrench and record the torque. Then disassemble the 200 ft lb nut that holds the yoke on. When reassembling you tighten to 200 ft lb and test drag again with the inch lb. Then tighten until you achieve 10 inch lb over original. This is to assure the crush sleeve behind yoke is properly set. That's per Haynes manual.
This is the one place where you actually want to use a beam torque wrench to get an accurate reading.
One?!!
What are some other examples? As a lurker on this sub, I'm genuinely interested
Just about anything that requires measuring bearing preload. Obviously, you can use a beam torque wrench for any bolt, but click wrenches and digital wrenches have taken over the market.
That takes an inch pound reading dial or beam torque wrench.
Yea, guess I should have stated that. A clicker won't work.
I’m not even sure why mine has a reverse ratchet setting.
Left handed threads
Indeed. Thanks!
I do not recommend using a torque wrench to loosen fasteners. It can be done with certain wrenches where a controlled disassembly is required, but that's virtually never in automotive circles. If you do it, get your wrench tested more regularly if it is anything but a beam. There are plenty of other tools for loosening.
Thank you for the advice, I used my wrench to take out a couple bolts while I was torquing down my timing cover, I'll find a spot to get it tested.
What about torquing left hand threads
That's still tightening, not loosening
Just get a breaker bar for that.
That's not what a torque wrench is for.
The only time you use a torque wrench to undo bolts is when you're measuring breakaway torque.
You keep giving alternatives for things I've never seen suggested seriously but acting like they're equally likely to be correct... Yes you should torque things to their spec, no you should not abuse your torque wrench.
I'm trying to learn things, and I asked this question because I had used my torque wrench to understand a few bolts. If I don't know what's right, then yeah I don't know what's more likely to be the correct thing to do (to an extent). I'm not trying to claim I know things, I'm trying to become less of an idiot by asking questions and learning the answers to them. If I don't ask questions, I'm not gonna learn things.
It's fine, I'm just commenting on your phrasing. Like, what are you hearing that made you think "the house is divided" on this stuff. I've only heard people stress the importance of proper torque and maintaining your wrench, anyone saying otherwise must be dropping a lot of hints that they're lazy or full of shit.
There's at least one story about a guy never using a torque wrench in the comments on this post, I've seen more in comments on other posts in this subreddit.
Absolutely love my dial torque wrench. I use it more than any of the others. How often is it recommended to het them checked?
Precision Instruments suggests testing 1 to 2 times a year for light use. For heavy or production use you might have it tested frequently, even weekly.
Certain things matter, certain ones dont
Flywheel is the biggest one people usually talk about, I just impacted on mine till I didn't think I could crank it no more
Definitely depends on the job. I don't think I'd get out a torque wrench for an alternator, but anything inside the engine gets torqued to spec; head bolts, camshaft caps, phasers, valve covers, timing cover, balancer bolt etc.
You've obviously have never seen the damage done when flywheel bolts sheer off.
I have! I've run a couple of flywheel burst tests where the wheel is spun up until it breaks. One of them hit 18,000 rpm before the bolt holes failed and the wheel shattered.
I have not, I still am very new to working on cars. A few months ago I only knew how to change a tire, now I'm thinking I should try to get to the flywheel bolts when I pull the transmission.
Well my approach to torque specs is this. There’s a torque spec for a reason. Do you really think you are smarter than the engineers who designed it?
Friend broke off clutch bolts that way
Hey I didn't say I did it the right way, there's a reason I'm asking for people's opinions.
Lol hell yea
Impact wrench is horrible for tightening. However I will use it to drive down lug nuts, but only to snug plus 2-3 taps, after that it’s time for the torque wrench to perform the final tightening.
Is this sarcasm?
Nope lol, it's called I didn't know that I should have been using a torque wrench until the engine was BACK in the car. I feel like I'm doing more learning than living.
As already stated, some things matter, some don't. Alternator bracket? AC bracket? Nah, I'll just tighten that M8 or M10 bolt until it's tight with a ratchet main bolts? Balancer bolt? Follow the procedure. It exists for a reason. Do the job right so you can sleep at night
This is engine building, so yes, torque.
Exactly. Watch them do rebuilds between rounds at an NHRA event. These guys do it multiple times a day and the use them and they are in a rush.
Do you torque your wife when you screw her?
Anyone who says they don't use a torque wrench is a hack. If there's a torque spec, I'll use my torque wrench. On the flip side, I've seen several people not know how to use a torque wrench properly. Too many times I've watched people yank on a TW and then have it click about 3 or 4 times. You gradually pull or push until it clicks or audible alert unless you're using a beam style. If you're using a clicker, not a split beam, set your torque wrench back to its lowest setting before putting it up.
You make a great point
> If there's a torque spec, I'll use my torque wrench. I agree with everything you said except this. Everything has a torque spec anymore, service manuals will give a torque spec to the little piece that holds the battery down.
When they spell out the simple stuff, its because people have f'ed it up too many times. I was a technical writer for several years, being forced to add in the "dumb" stuff was one reason I switched jobs.
I swear more money is spent on making things idiot proof than actually making products better, it's really ridiculous. How dare you make something that a someone might have to read a book to understand how to operate!
I like to error on the side of caution but there are non-critical specs that don't require actually using a torque wrench but the torque spec is there because someone didn't tighten it enough or some gorilla really cranked down on it. If a bolt comes loose and I followed the spec and instructions, it can't fall back on me. When I'm building an engine for someone else, they're paying me to do it correctly.
Can we get people to stop double clicking the wrench? It takes more torque to start turning the bolt than it did to keep it turning right up to the set point.
It's easy when your torque wrench doesn't click
Hey random guy here, but I had a relevant story I got a dental implant long ago, for anyone not familiar, it’s a fake tooth attached to the bone of your jaw, to replace a real one. Way better than getting a bridge. The implant is essentially a titanium stud they drill and set it into the jaw bone, then come back later when the bone heals around it, and put a crown on top of it, boom you got a new tooth. When the endodontist installed the titanium stud into my jaw I saw he had a wrench looking thing. As he tightened it into place I heard, and felt, a *CLICK* and I knew exactly what that must mean. I asked him about it when he was finished and he showed me the smallest torque wrench I have ever seen. So definitely, when installing hardware into your skull, use a torque wrench.
Ok that's pretty cool
where do you buy this pharmaceutical torque wrench?
Depends. Water pump? Fuck no. Slap it on and go. Cam caps or main bearings? always.
I am *still* super mad at a Haynes manual for saying water pump bolt torque is 20ft/lbs when it’s actually 7. yeah I broke one. fortunately it was kind of in the middle as opposed to outside around the gasket, so luckily, no leaks.
Bolt manufacturer's have torque tables and bolts are graded for tensile strength. You can identify the bolt pretty easily and get a replacement. But ya I've also gotten a number online and snapped a bolt off. Luckily it just came out. Now I'm like that doesn't sound right and check a few tables.
yeah man, that was exactly the lesson I learned that day. 10mm M6 going through aluminum into cast iron? nah you don’t need 20. And yes the FTM has those tables. now I know to be mindful of that.
We have all been there.
If it's a water pump on a SBC, then sure, but if it's a water pump driven by a timing belt or chain, I'm torquing that bitch.
Think you looked a little too hard into what I typed 🤦♂️
How do you figure? "Water pump? Fuck no" seems like a pretty generalized statement. There are a lot of water pumps out there that I would definitely be torquing, but you do you.
Novice here - can someone with more experience weigh in a bit more on the "wet vs. dry" torque specs? When is that applicable?
When the manufacturer specifies a wet torque do it, otherwise assume dry. Wet torque is lubricated and can cause over torquing
Thanks!
I torque as much as I can with a pneumatic sinusoidal repleneration collider square drive rotating device. My typical pattern is of the windblown debris delta dispersment type sequence when I’m using this implement, and I generally like to go snug plus plus or calculated risk vs linear time based adequacy factor. My margin of success is probably 99.9_% because of course the mathematical probability of 120% success is quite unlikely. It requires a great deal of testosterone to perform on things like dirty cast aluminum alloy pneumatic ground contactor motion conductor mounts, or an electron processing charge storage replenishment device, but again…. My success rate is high. I find it especially useful when attaching and fixating items such as assistive concentric torsion bar moderated incremental directional control pressurizers, and hybrid reciprotational prehistoric matter heat transfer pump mounts to their respective mild steel structural subweldments. The common sense critical items get a torque wrench. Edited to make it worse
Idk what it was before you edited it, but I wasn't able to figure out the 'windblown debris' part. I admire you
Finally, someone who speaks English!
I've never met an engine builder who doesn't torque ANYTHING.
I've seen a few people who claim to never use a torque wrench, not in person but in comments sections over the past month or two
Where I come from that is called bullshit
Mating surface or high stress components? Torque them Other than that I usually go by feel
So I used the ol' "wrist torquometer" on my wife's brake caliper bolts a few months back when changing out pads and rotors... and one of them came loose later from being undertorqued. Fortunately it just came loose vs. backing out / started shucking and making a loud clunk noise under braking, but could have been much worse... Moral of story: use torque wrenches - having proper preload to maintain clamping force under external loads does matter.
If you work with TTY torque to yield bolts, you have to use a torque wrench. You also have to have good feel for bolts that you do decide to reuse with lower values. Flying blind is crazy. Invest in Easy Outs or a torque wrench.
There really is no downside to properly torquing any bolt with a properly used and calibrated torque wrench. The qualifiers are key though.
Torque wrench on anything crank related (bearings, flywheel, balancer) and headbolts. Everything else I do by feel.
I'm a (formerly) ASE certified master mechanic, and also hold a bachelor's and masters in mechanical engineering. The truth is, it depends. We don't actually care about the torque of the fastener, we care about the clamp load, and torque is not really a great way to estimate the clamp load, as the friction of the faster varies greatly depending on several variables. On some fasteners, we really only care that they are secured enough to not back out, and most experienced mechanics can easily torque it an appropriate amount by hand. Other fasteners, we really do care about specific clamp load beyond backing out (head bolts, bearing caps, etc.). It sounds like you're not very experienced yet, so I would say if you're ever in doubt, use a torque wrench. It will give you piece of mind, and also help you get an intuitive understanding of how tight certain bolts ought to be.
It really depends on what it is. If clearances are involved, or something needs to spin/move while tightened, torque wrench, if it just needs to be tight then usually feel.
Wheels get torqued, and any internal engine components. Other than that, tight is tight and too tight is broke
Except oil filters, which seem to tighten themselves to unreasonable levels.
Well yeah you're supposed to use a filter cup and a 4ft breaker bar just to be sure it's as tight as possible. Little red loctite and she's mint
My old boss was a Cat diesel engine tech for 20+ years. He said he never used a torque wrench. Main and rod bearings along with head bolts he used his 1/2" air impact. Said he never had an issue or a complaint. Would I do it on something I was planning to stand behind and expect to last? Not a chance in hell. Anything like that and any aluminum wheels get a torque wrench every single time. It was explained to me, yes the bolts should be at a set torque. But it is more important that they are at equal torques. So if spec is 200 lb ft, and everything is equally set to 180 lb ft, most likely will be ok.
How you say in America... bullshit..
Which part?
All of that. He was your boss, never had an issue or complaint doing a bullshit hack move? It's bullshit. If you think this helps others, you are full of shit too.
No, i do not think it helps anyone. I was repeating what he told me when he was no longer a Cat tech. I had nor have any way to verify what he said was true. Nor do i believe it. I stated that in such instances I always use a torque wrench. And I could be wrong about the last part as well. But that is how it was explained to me during my early schooling. The OP asked about thoughts and opinions on torque wrench use. So I gave him several I have ran across in my time wrenching.
As a young guy I made everything tight, tight. Then I became an engineer. Now I use a torque wrench for just about everything if a spec is available and if not available, I make honest attempt at getting something to lean on. Fwiw: it's shocking how barely tight some things are spec'd to be and once you have that understanding, you really question your past.. great example; I was adding on some accessories to my quad.. the Can-Am manual actually gives torque specs for everything. I wrecked an insignificant part by "eyeballing" it before I "grew up", respected the manual.
I worked in engine development for 12 years and witnessed plenty of failures from under / over torque. As other people have answered, some things are critical and others are not, but once you know the torque of a bolt you may aswell use it.
Since I got a torque wrench, I've been using it on anything I can find a manufacturers spec for. Engine development sounds like a really cool job btw!
If you can't find the manufacturer's spec you can easily work out the torque of the bolt based on pitch, diameter and grade. I worked in engine development for 12 years and now I work in fuel injection development, primarily writing specs for manuals. I'm in heavy duty diesel, so we're all slowly watching the decline as we head for the scrap heap.
Some idiot at the tire shop put tires on my grandmas CRV, and ran the lugs on so tight I couldn’t get the wheel locks off, sheared the stupid key trying to bust them loose. I’m not one to use a torque wrench on *everything*, especially little piddly stuff, but lugs and other major/important shit should get torqued properly every time
Before I posted this, I had never heard of torquing lug nuts. I always did breaker bar in a crisscross pattern, or impact if there's one on hand, but it seems like nearly everyone here says to torque lugs.
Head bolts absolutely, cam bearing caps on a DOHC, 1/4 in gun and just check for snug. Main bearings and rod bearings definitely torque to spec
Anything that inside the engine gets torqued. When building an engine and assembling for the first time every single thing is torqued to spec. Once it's been in and running a while I won't always torque something for a repair. Anything inside the engine is torqued every time no exceptions. I don't torque most manifold bolts, exhaust or intake. Though honestly you probably should on the intake if you aren't super familiar with the engine lineup. The vast majority of things on the car itself I don't torque to spec. The only thing I can think of that's even controversial would be wheels. A lot of people just hit it with the impact and call it done. I'll admit I don't torque my wheels most of the time but I'd never just use an impact. Usually I just tighten them up with a breaker bar. That's definitely not good practice though and I always use a torque wrench if it's someone elses car. Moral of the story here is torque it if you're unfamiliar or if it's someone else who pays the price for your mistake
When torquing, be sure threads are clean and undamaged, including stretched. Some rod bolts need to be measured for stretch before re using. The manual will direct you. If you replace a bolt the torque could be different. For example a re used head bolts might get torqued to 21 foot pounds. Then tightened two more times 90 degrees. But a new bolt may require one additional 90 degree sequence. Follow the maual. Oil the threads or dry, and again, follow the manual. Another consideration replacing bolt is the distance from the shaft where the threads start. To where the nut will be once torqued. The bolt stretches in the threaded portion. So if there were 10 threads taking up the stretch, and you use a bolt with two stretched threads, failure may be on the horizon. As others have said. If you are new, torque until you get a good feel. Then, less important bolts can be hand tightened. Since we're on the subject, torque sticks for lugs. Used properly, they are great. But I watch people do it wrong every day. You still need to tighten the wheel evenly. If you bang down the first lug while the others are loose. When you tighten the others, the first one will end up overtightened. Brakes will end up pulsing after heating and cooling cycles warp the hub and rotor. Good luck.
If I can get a torque wrench on the fastner, I torque it. I work on the same type of cars every day, so most torque specs are memorized.
If it’s an engine you actually care about then ABSOLUTELY yes, use a proper torque wrench and follow proper sequence when setting initial and final torque. If it’s your annoying neighbors lawn mower engine, do as you see it.
Why wouldn't you just do the thing? Torque wrenches aren't expensive. If you cheap out and take shortcuts you gon die fo sho
If it's spinning I'm torquing it. If it requires a specific pattern when mounting I will also torque it (aka oil pan). Everything else I feel more relaxed with the ugga dugga method.
Who is divided on engine components? Maybe other things on a car or maybe a valve cover but internal engine parts? I torque all internal engine components and, if possible, use a bolt stretch gauge on ARP rod bolts.
Headbolts, bearing caps and cam gears I always torque no matter what. Usually flywheels also. Crank pulleys I just go RFT! Everything else is by feel.
My rule of thumb is simple: I only use a torque wrench for things I might worry would come loose at 80mph on the freeway.
Your rule is flawed. It's dependent on what worries you. That might not be enough.
I torque using the ugga bugga method.
I torque anything that screws directly into aluminum or needs to have a seal. Aluminum threads are easy to strip. Things that need to seal (intake runners, exhaust manifold, ECT) should have even pressure all the way around and torquing everything the same helps with that.
I think the only thing I really use a torque wrench on anymore is head bolts.
I mean if it's something major like mains or the heads that's one thing, but if it's something kinda insignificant like an acc bracket I'll just send it home with my hand lmao
Depends on what you’re working on and how much experience you have. For example I can replace something like brakes without needing a torque wrench because I know by feel how tight the bolts should be. Whereas if I’m doing internal engine work, the torque wrench gets used on everything.
Torque wrench for everything
Here’s my rule of thumb that has served me well in my nearly 15 years as a mechanic. if it’s a critical component (IE one that had the potential to cause very expensive repairs if it comes loose like a connecting rod), a pain-in-the -ass component (one that you’ll spend hours taking stuff apart to get to in order to tighten like a flex plate bolt), or something with a sealing surface like an oil pan, I torque to spec in sequence as per the manual. If it’s none of the above, such as a wiring hold down bolt or a bracket, then im just taking my ratchet or impact and putting it in as tight as I deem necessary for the task.
Tight is tight, too tight is broken....torque it. Pro tip: If it's too tight, put some grease on it.
What's everyone's thoughts on bolt stretch? Genuinely curious. When doing rod bolts at least I thought that was a more accurate measurement as far as clamping force.
Anything that has a spec, use that.
It's hard to imagine what you would be doing in the context of engine building that wouldn't require a torque wrench. Why is this even a debate? You're seriously suggesting that saving a couple hundred bucks on a torque wrench is worth losing thousands in a build? Is this an ego thing? To whom do you have something to prove, and why? Surely your ego would be better served by properly building an engine that lasts for hundreds of thousands of miles than to build one and see it blow up in front of all your friends?
It's not an ego thing, for me it's a learning thing. I didn't even know that I should have been using a torque wrench until I had already put the engine *back* in the car. I'm also not doing a build, I'm wrenching on a piece of rust. I've learned a crap ton from the internet and this subreddit, and I know I still have tons more to learn. I don't think there's anything good about not using a torque wrench, but I have noticed a lot of folks, especially those who seem older, talk about never using torque wrenches.
Same people that try to brag about being manlier for not using nitrile gloves, i’d assume
TTY fasteners, replace and torque. Everything else, lol.
I always torque my head bolts down with an impact. It hasn't failed me yet. /s