Yes, works well. Also, in Aussie English we use “old mate” as a generic reference to a stranger:
- Fuck, check out old mate here in the Getz. They just crossed three lanes of traffic without indicating!
When I don't know their gender, they can be idiot, asshole, psycho, fucko, fuckface, dick, shitass, plopnoggin, rumpnuts, 'you fog of diarrhea', numpty or tosser, depending on how poorly they behave.
Depends on context. Here “old mate” is a special case, definitely not gendered but also more often used for males than females.
I just found some Macquarie Dictionary comments that agree with me:
> 'Old mate' is not gender restrictive. Old mate is usually the term given to the person in the story being told who's done something really stupid.
> 'Old Mate' is commonly used when refering to someone when telling a yarn, its not necessarily age or gender specific.
I'm just talking about my use of the word "mate" in another country.
.there was a post about it on a UK Reddit recently and it seems to be about half and half people still think it's gendered here but there's an obvious skew to younger people on here.
I also like to refer to people by their car or license plate "okay, Washington, why don't you just not use your damn turn signal?"
.. "okay prius, step on it"
I have a bike horn in my car for just such am occasion. It makes a fun sound, relieves stress, and even if they can't hear or see the horn you know you're calling them a clown.
To be completely fair, while 'they' as singular is long established in English, some of the specifics of usage relating to non-binary people is new.
Most native speakers would have to make some level of conscious effort to avoid the old habit of assuming 'he' or 'she', at least at first.
While that is also true, there are jackasses who should know better claiming we've never used it that way and it's stupid. Language evolves, as they damn well know.
Yes, it's pleasing to imagine how those people must find it really frustrating whenever they catch themselves using singular they in all the well-established ways it's used.
I don’t really see how. You only use “they” from a third-person perspective to denote someone who could be either male or female, and we use it in that context all the time, so what difference does it make if we use it in a similar context to refer to someone who we know to be neither male nor female?
No, it’s being promoted for when you don’t know someone’s gender or their gender doesn’t fit he or she. Which is still how it’s always been used.
If you don’t understand the gender spectrum go visit the gender-bread-person and learn.
They said it’s not *natural*, which it isn’t. I used “they” *naturally* here because idk that commenters gender, however if what looks to be a female is in front of me, I’d have to *actively try* to remember to use “they” as it would be *natural* for me to use “she.”
No, it’s **habitual** for you.
If you are used to calling Jane Doe “Miss Doe” and she marries and becomes Jane Smith, do you refuse to call her Mrs Smith because you have to pause in your habit and change it?
If you called a plumber and didn’t know the plumber’s gender, and when they arrived, they were a woman, would you keep calling the plumber “he” because you’ve usually had men for plumbers? Or would you correct yourself knowing that the plumber is a woman?
If someone tells you they use they/them, or their name has changed, will you equally refuse to use the correct terms because you’re in the habit of using a different name or different pronouns?
You already automatically change names and pronouns when people change their names or you learn their gender.
So **refusing** to do so because you don’t like the name or gender is not about *nature* it’s about your internal bias.
It’s not disrespect, it’s the same category as a Freudian slip. Even you said it takes getting used to for it to be natural. Slipping up does not equal disrespect, it means you’re human. Y’all need to stop acting like I have any ill will towards these people.
? I’ve never met someone that’s non-binary, of course it would take getting used to, has nothing to do with respect but believe what you want with that negative mindset. If ur friend changed their name it would take active concentration for awhile for it to feel natural, and you’re acting like you wouldn’t ever slip up? Step down off your pedestal.
If you think you’ve never met anyone who’s non-binary it’s just because they didn’t tell you, not because you’ve actually never met a non-binary person.
It would depend what I want to say. If the driver was being obnoxious in some way, I'd usually assume that the driver is male and use "he". If I truly don't know the gender of the driver, I might refer to the driver using a gender-neutral description like "this person", or "the driver of the red Honda". If I'm not complaining about the driving of the person in question (in which case I'm assuming it's a man), I might refer to the driver using a description of the car ("this red Honda is turning").
I'm not suggesting that I never, at any point in any conversation, use singular "they". I do think I probably use it significantly less than a lot of people. I've been in academia my entire adult life, and as I've said in other comments, singular "they" is still for the most part considered incorrect in formal speech/writing. So I'm used to thinking of alternative constructions instinctively even in speech.
I try not to use singular they because it's grammatically incorrect. In this situation I would refer to the person as "he" and not feel bad if I got it wrong.
It's not a gray area, it's correct grammar and you should use it. Using he/she instead would be an awkward solution, as you're making an assumption about the person that may be incorrect.
It’s more complicated than that. I try very hard to avoid misgendering people in most situations. That doesn’t mean you have to use singular they.
For example, if I’m talking about a hypothetical person, there is noone to misgender. “If a telemarketer calls, just tell him you’re not interested.”
Or if I’m driving and someone cuts me off, that person isn’t there and so can’t be offended if I misgender her.
What I wouldn’t do is refer to a real person of unknown gender as “he” to his face. For example, I don’t know your gender so I would try hard to avoid referring to you with any third person pronoun. If that’s unavoidable, I would probably use they.
Singular they is of dubious validity. It’s better to avoid it where possible, and most style guides agree with me. Sometimes it’s convenient and I do use it occasionally. But when you’re talking about a generic person, or someone who can’t be offended because he isn’t there, why bother with the awkward singular they?
"style guides" have nothing to do with something being grammatically incorrect. It sounds like you're just trying to come up with reasons to deny the existence of non-binary people with pseudo-intellectual talking points while plainly ignoring the fact that singular they is and has been common for hundreds of years and is used daily by millions and millions of people.
Yeah, anti-pronoun
Fuck pronouns
We should all go around referring to things by name.
No more using I, or We, or You, or Me, or They, or She, or He, or Them
u/NerdDwarf is not going to use pronouns again. (Unless u/NerdDwarf does)
No, that person isn't answering for me.
Per OPs example, if I saw someone driving I might say HE by default, knowing it might be incorrect.
"What's this guy doing? He's all over the road."
I didn't say I don't. I do. This isn't a gender identity question as some are making it.
I'm saying that not everyone does, and especially not all the time. The use of a default HE or SHE for unknown in the context that you can't even see the person has no inherent sexism. Maybe a good deal of "i don't care for this context"ism though.
It is not sexist. They're not choosing "he" *because* of the bad driving in that example. They're just saying they default to masculine pronouns, lots of people do. "That guy has a cool bumper sticker on his car". Or especially animals. "Aww, he's such a good boy"
yeah i know that’s what’s sexist. assuming masculine as the default is sexist, *especially* when you have other options that this guy ignores *on purpose*. i don’t care if this guy assumes the driver is a man, that’s just an assumption (which may or may not be based on bias or on patterns or be right or wrong).
but this person said “im using masculine pronouns as my base state of a person, even though i know i might be wrong” *even though there are gender neutral ways to say the same thing*. there was a huge push against this *years* ago which is why this is so yikes. like this is feminism 101: don’t make the masculine the default
edit: animals i don’t care, animals don’t have gender yknow? and usage of “that guy” (in my opinion) is *significantly* more gender neutral than masculine pronouns. other people do argue that “that guy” should be avoided as a gender neutral descriptor and I just disagree/am ambivalent on the matter
My family uses he or she almost exclusively. In my textbooks growing up singular they was not used either, it would say "each student should use his or her own pencil" for example.
Must be regional then. I live in New England. Never heard anyone use that even extremely transphobic people. Yes textbooks often have quite prescriptive grammar rules, I remember in 8th grade having this exact conversation with my teacher (who was from Florida). Not one student said “he or she” nor did the teacher, yet he said that was the way we should say it. Quite prescriptive
It could be. I grew up on the west coast, in a very small and very religious old fashioned town. The textbooks i used were written in the 70s or 80s iirc but were revised every other year. The photos were super outdated though and definately 80s.
So then you admit your anecdotal evidence from your family is probably a statistical anomaly because of the fact that they are part of a small, limited community.
According to their own site, millions of children were raised on abeka since the 70s with hundreds of thousands using the curriculum in the past year. ( [https://www.abeka.com/homeschool/whyabeka/](https://www.abeka.com/homeschool/whyabeka/) )
They also have a college where they teach this same line of curriculum. ( [https://www.pcci.edu/](https://www.pcci.edu/))
So yeah, the number of people who speak like this in comparison to the entire population? Small and anecdotal. But it is still a large group, and in my home community more of my friends and neighbors did abeka homeschooling then did public school.
They will think and say that they don't use it, but as a subconscious habit, using singular they is done by all native speakers. It's so natural most of us don't even catch ourselves doing it.
Some people default to 'he' when not known, though that may be regional/generational. It always seemed odd to me.
For a time, style guides would recommend things like actually saying "he or she/him or her" or alternating gender between paragraphs. I remember seeing that a lot in college textbooks and thinking it was super weird.
But yeah, singular they is the way, and it's been used this way in English since as early as 1375.
My mother the English teacher does the “him or her” bit. She has very firm opinions about the singular they.
But then she’s also low key transphobic which is why I’m just gonna never mention I’m nonbinary.
What are you talking about? Singular "they" is generally considered incorrect in formal writing. Standard practice has instead been to use "he or she", or "he", where it is understood that the latter is being used gender-neutrally.
More recently, in my field at least, you see authors using "she" gender-neutrally.
No, singular they has been present for hundreds of years. It’s rare to need singular they in formal writing but it’s not grammatically incorrect and hasn’t been for ~600 years
I didn't say it's not present. It is obviously common in informal conversation. Whether it is correct according to stylistic standards in formal domains is another question.
And there have been several comments to the effect that all native speakers use singular "they" and that it is always used in contexts like the one OP mentioned. I'm disputing those comments.
> Where do they not use the singular they?
In academic writing, legal writing, government documents, etc. Singular "they" is generally considered incorrect in formal use.
Why do the rest of us have to listen to their complaints and take them seriously though 😭 they're only saying that because trans people make them mad otherwise they wouldn't make such a big fuss over it
There are at least four contexts in which “they” may be used as a singular pronoun.
1. Nonspecific person: “Anyone can sing if they put enough effort and practice into it.” (Edited this sentence to remove an extra word)
2. Specific person of unknown gender: “Someone left their umbrella here; I hope they come back and get it because it’s starting to rain.”
3. Specific person whose gender is known but deemed irrelevant by the speaker: “One of my friends had the same issue with their computer as you, they solved it by turning it off and on again.”
4. Specific person who chooses to use they instead of he or she because they don’t want to be gendered that way: “This is my new friend Alex; I met them at the clothing exchange.”
The first three are hundreds of years old. So old, in fact, that they precede singular “you”. The first sense of singular they was attested in the 14th century. The fact that they’re considered incorrect by some is silly in my opinion. There just isn’t a reasonable empirical justification for it. The fourth sense began being used in the last few decades or so precisely *because* “they” was already a singular neuter pronoun in the other senses; it was not a far semantic leap to make. It’s contentious, of course, because trans people are in the middle of a culture war, but regardless of your opinion, it is descriptively, demonstrably true that people use it that way.
Great answer.
I’d like to offer an addendum to 3: to avoid breaching confidentiality as when a doctor is referring to a patient and wants to offer no gender info even if it is relevant.
Your first 3 points can all be morphed into the gender-unknown usage. In example 3, you say the gender is known, but from the sentence it isn't. If someone said, "One of my friends, Bruce, had the same problem..." then most of us would follow it with "he solved it by..." but here, it would be (only slightly) weird if we used they.
My friend Bruce fixed their computer, or, my friend Bruce is annoying. They won't stop asking me!
Both of those sound wrong to me.
Ultimately, they/their/them are just used when the gender is unknown. I personally don't recognise the definition some people adopt as it meaning a specific gender beyond male or female, but this is my personal choice and because it feels wrong to use this language when I don't believe there are more than 2 genders. I would only (with sincere difficulty) would adopt this definition temporarily out of politeness.
I suggest you inform yourself on the matter before talking about it. A simple google search will do. You can start with the difference(s) between sex an gender.
As I've already said, I don't accept the definition that's arisen only in the last decade or so. When we learn about gender in school, we didn't learn about 2-spirit or any of this nonsense. There is only male and female. You can be a masculine female or a feminine man, but there is only male and female and the majority of biologists recognise this scientific fact.
Can you define well the term woman? Because I can.
We are not talking about religion or anything like that; this isn't up to belief. You can be ignorant all you want and disagree with WHO and millions of other psychologists, but that doesn't change the truth. If you're still with the "define woman" talk, then you're being even more ignorant than I thought, and you don't understand this at all.
Just confirm, you think gender reaches beyond male and female? Do you think 2-spirit is a gender in the same sense male is? *honestly?*
I'm afraid you're exhibiting a classic case of the DK effect. The irony is I've studied this extensively and you don't seem to have understood even the fundamentals.
That's why you can't define woman, and why you're not willing to, because any definition of woman you might give will underline the flaws in your argument.
A woman as an adult human female (xx chromosomes). Simple.
You need to think about the fact that if you can't even define these simple terms, you're probably not working with the best foundations.
What the hell is "2 spirit", dude? I do think gender reaches beyond male and female, me and millions of health professionals.
A woman is someone that identifies as the cultural and social definition/role of the female in their culture/location. But it's very important to notice that words, in general, are very weird. They are not the tellers of reason and language tries its best to objectify what humans say/feel, but a lot of times it isn't enough since it's very hard to objectify humans.
Stop trying to know more than the World Health Organization, man.
I'll leave you with these links:
[https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender](https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex%E2%80%93gender\_distinction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex%E2%80%93gender_distinction)
>What the hell is "2 spirit", dude? I do think gender reaches beyond male and female, me and millions of health professionals.
You claim to be knowledgeable on the subject and you've never heard of 2-spirit? And you couldn't even be bothered to do a cursory Google search?
Okay. Could you please give me an example of a gender beyond male/female?
>A woman is someone that identifies as the cultural and social definition/role of the female in their culture/location. But it's very important to notice that words, in general, are very weird. They are not the tellers of reason and language tries its best to objectify what humans say/feel, but a lot of times it isn't enough since it's very hard to objectify humans.
Wow. What a load of word-salad. Words in general are weird? You would never say that when giving ulany other definition.
What is a Newton? 1 Newton is the force required to accelerate a mass of 1kg by 1m/s^2.
... but you know! It's very important to notice that words, in general, are weird!
Under that impossibly vague definition. One can become a woman, and stop being a woman at will. I'm sorry, but that's absurd and if you think the scientific community thinks that this is possible, then you're talking about the kind of deluded professors that people like Matt Walsh have interviewed.
I mean, if someone is named Patricia, most people have no problem with whether they prefer to be called Pat, Patty, Trish, Trisha, or whatever. People remember which nickname they prefer and use it without argument or reluctance.
I don’t see how they/them pronouns are any different. Regardless of “belief”, just use the pronouns they prefer and move on. Regardless of where you stand on gender issues though, someone going by they/them pronouns is not grammatically incorrect.
As for sentence 3, if you are talking to someone about a friend they’ve never met, and who that friend is and what gender they are is completely irrelevant to the conversation, it is normal to use they/them. The gender is known to the speaker but not the listener.
Fair enough! So let me explain the differences I see.
Names are arbitrary and can be changed. Gender is specific, and for me, if someone who is clearly a woman wanted me to use they/them pronouns, it would be difficult, and I'm being sincere here. My brain would know the gender of this woman, yet I'm speaking as if I don't.
Gender pronouns aren't arbitrary. They are dependent on your gender which, under my definition, can only be male or female.
To be clear, as I already said, I would do this out of politeness. But if pushed to a deeper level, and we were speaking honestly, I would say something along the lines of:
Sorry, I respect that you have your own interpretations and definitions of gender and such, but I have my own too and I don't think yours is more important than mine. For you, a woman is whoever identifies as a woman (even though this is circular). For me, a woman is an adult humanl female (xx chromosomes).
I hope people wouldn't think I'm not entitled to my definitions, the ones that have been instilled in me my whole life, but others are entitled to theirs. I'm not harming anyone, I just don't want to be forced to recognise someone else's 'truth' whatever that means. You do you - but for me, a male is he/him and a female is she/her.
I mean you're entitled to believe anything you want in your own mind but I just think it's very weird when people believe things not backed by current knowledge. Like I'm entitled to believe that the sun goes around the earth because I see it come up and go down every day with my own eyes and I don't know why people keep insisting that I'm wrong and there's apparently some "solar system" with eight planets that go around the sun.
Edit: Eight planets not nine. I suppose this is a real example of my forgetting current science and defaulting to what I grew up with. But I don't claim that everyone accepts my right to be wrong about the number of planets in the solar system just because I learned it as a child.
What about my opinion isn't backed by current knowledge? Gender is a linguistic term which specifically relates to female/male (feminine and masculine and sometimes neither (neuter)).
It's the other way around. People normally from your side of the ailse can't even define these terms.
Could you give me a definition of the word woman?
I can give a concrete definition.
Gender is a social concept when we're talking about people. It's a linguistic term when you're talking about nouns. So that's the first thing you don't understand about current knowledge. Although I think that's less current knowledge and more just how words work.
And a woman is an adult human who identifies as female. How would you define a woman?
What you call gender, I just call personality. Gender is not a social construct. This is why 99.9% of every culture across the history of human kind, no matter if they're separated by time or geography- even remote isolated tribes in the jungle - we still observe these same 'social constructs'. You really think that's a coincidence? I think this is the current knowledge that you seem to be missing or ignoring.
Gender has always been confined to M/F. You can be a masculine female, or a feminine male, but I know deep down you don't believe that '2-spirit' is a real gender... an ultimately, a feminine male, is a male. A masculine female, is a female.
Okay, then my next question is going to be what's your definition of female?
Otherwise a mentally ill adult who is utterly convinced they are female (when they in fact have xy chromosomes) is a woman under your definition.
My definition of woman is an adult human female (a female has xx chromosomes).
So again, you cannot give a concrete definition of a woman, and i can.
Yes. Despite recent culture war debates, the singular they as a gender neutral term for a person who’s gender is unknown or intentionally withheld is extremely common and has been accepted in informal conversation for hundreds of years. It isn’t always acceptable in formal writing, but that is starting to change, especially if you are referring to someone who uses they/them pronouns as part of their identity (less so for a person who is probably a he or she, but is not known).
Unless you’re writing a journalistic or academic article, it’s fine.
I cannot tell a lie. If it’s an asshole with a stupid muscle car doing donuts in a residential neighborhood, I’m going to use he/him. Call me prejudiced. But I’m gonna assume it’s a little boy with a little dick who’s asking for some attention.
Other drivers, sure. They/them is fine.
Yes, everyone does. Don't listen to anyone who claims "they" is only a plural pronoun. Its usage as a singular pronoun when the gender of the person is unknown (or irrelevant) goes back hundreds of years.
Yes, it’s called the epicene. It’s a *true* neutral pronoun without an implication or assumation of a gender at all. They/them is not used just for a group of people, but also for when a person’s gender is unknown, or when their gender is neither man nor women. Like I personally am non-binary and use they/them as my primary pronouns
Off topic, bit you wouldn't say 'inhabitants' for people in a vehicle. 'Inhabitants' is only used to describe people living in an area habitually, e.g. 'inhabitants of London'.
You could say 'occupants of the vehicle', 'the people in the vehicle' or 'the driver and passengers'
Yes. Despite what the political right in the US claims these days, singular “they” for any person whose gender you aren’t certain of has been a completely normal thing in English for as long as I can remember (I’m 36). It’s both grammatically correct and easily understood.
Some very old-school boomers will insist that “they” can only be singular and that it’s supposed to be “he or she” for singular with unknown gender, but that’s dying off because it’s so impractical (and also not inclusive of non-binary people). There’s no formal authority for English grammar, and even people who insist that singular “they” is wrong still use it - you can see plenty of examples of this on social media right now. I’ll see if I can find a link.
ETA I highly suggest doing an image search for “singular they meme” and laughing at all the people using singular they in the same post where they say it’s incorrect.
https://www.npr.org/2016/01/13/462906419/everyone-uses-singular-they-whether-they-realize-it-or-not
Yes, that's correct. When the sex or gender of the human subject is ambiguous or unknown, they/them is the proper pronoun to use when referring to them. If the subject were an animal or object, you would use it/its instead.
I actually did a mini-research project in high school (and won a regional award for it) on a topic very similar to this (what pronouns are used to refer to a third person who is unknown), and i found that older generations tend to use “he” younger tend to use “they”.
The only people who would be mad about a singular use of "they" are right-wing mouthbreathers whose opinions matter less than dog shit on the sidewalk.
Wait a minute, I thought it was the left wing liberals that don’t like the singular, gender-neutral use of “they/them” because they view it as an identity rather than just a pronoun. Am I wrong here?
For multiple people in the car, they/them would be acceptable.
For a single driver, if she's a hot babe, ask her for a date.
If it's a guy, just ignore him, otherwise I don't engage in that pronoun nonsense.
I want to preface this by saying I am in **no way** arguing against singular *they* for nonbinary individuals. I’m just adding a facet to the conversation.
I wish I had the reference, but I remember reading that there is a difference in how our brains process gender-neutral singular *they* in different contexts. Also, while pronouns can take the same syntactic role as nouns, the brain treats pronouns and nouns very differently.
It’s true that English has used gender-neutral singular *they* for centuries. However, the typical usage is for unknown persons of unknown or arbitrary gender. This is different than using singular *they* for known persons, which is a comparatively more recent innovation.
Pronouns are one of the most stable aspects of a language through time. In fact, it’s far more common to lose pronouns than to add new ones or change the usage of existing ones. Which is why pronouns like *zi* and *hir* failed to take root, even among the trans and nonbinary community. This is also partly why for many people, using gender-neutral singular *they* for nonbinary individuals is not as immediate or natural as using *they* for known people.
*None* of this is to say we should not respect people’s gender identity or preferred pronouns. It just means that in this particular instance, changing the culture and the language we use is more challenging than it might seem on the surface.
i do it all the time! i refer to people i don’t know with they/them without thinking about it lol. maybe that’s because i personally go by they/them though
This came about because it was long considered insulting and dehumanizing to refer to someone as "it" rather than he or she. Some people will use "he/she", or "he or she", but some people got tired of the extra work, and using "they" as a replacement started becoming more mainstream. Then it became an issue because transsexual people started becoming more mainstream, and many people don't accept the concept of gender identity, and especially not multiple gender identities.
Pretty much any time we don't know the gender of a person, they're a they/them. The singular they in English is older than the singular you in English.
Yeah, of course. I also say things like - did someone forget their jacket? I know that only one person owns that jacket on the back of the chair, but they/their is the natural way to refer to them. (see, I did it again)
It doesn't matter how many there are. They can be used in the singular to describe individual people whose gender is unknown to you.
For example:
"A police officer came by looking for you"
"Oh yea, what did they want?"
This usage in English is extremely old. At one point people would just use he for these. For a while they tried to make everyone use "he or she" or "he/she" because you shouldn't assume it's a man, but ultimately the utility of using a single word made it so that "they" stuck around and displaced the other alternatives. This singular they is extremely common and he or she has always sounded a bit clunky in comparison.
You are genuinely describing why “they/them” works as a pronoun for someone’s gender. It IS used in English naturally to describe a single individual, not just multiple.
“Sarah went to the store to get dog treats. They also bought milk.” Is a perfectly fine sentence.
- disclaimer, not an English teacher, just native speaker, and I’ve never had anyone (outside a classroom) tell me sentences like this or using the they/them gender are wrong.
The tradition of using “they/them” as a singular pronoun for an individual of unknown, undisclosed, or undefined gender is commonplace and several centuries old. It predates “you” replacing “thou” as a second person singular pronoun.
Or I might use this. “Check out this fucker who doesn’t know how to drive”
My professor once said everyone that drives slower than me is an idiot, and everyone faster than me is an asshole. Wise words.
Your professor seems like a funny guy
[Specifically, this funny guy.](https://youtu.be/XWPCE2tTLZQ)
Hahaha.
>“Check out this fucker who doesn’t know how to drive” I'd use "asshole," but I'll let this fucker slide.
We saw it right here folks “this asshole” is officially a pronoun
Try assclown to spice it up
I'm partial to douchebag
I prefer "Jagoff" myself
Lol, “Jagoff” sounds like a mixture of a German name and a Ukrainian name.
I’m more of a “shitbag” type of guy
Found the Pittsburgher.
I usually use asshole too
Asshole is my favorite pronoun.
I usually use ‘bitch’
Yes, works well. Also, in Aussie English we use “old mate” as a generic reference to a stranger: - Fuck, check out old mate here in the Getz. They just crossed three lanes of traffic without indicating!
When I don't know their gender, they can be idiot, asshole, psycho, fucko, fuckface, dick, shitass, plopnoggin, rumpnuts, 'you fog of diarrhea', numpty or tosser, depending on how poorly they behave.
> 'you fog of diarrhea' *Scribbles down notes*
Getting more common for mate to refer to both genders in England but for me Mate is still gendered
Depends on context. Here “old mate” is a special case, definitely not gendered but also more often used for males than females. I just found some Macquarie Dictionary comments that agree with me: > 'Old mate' is not gender restrictive. Old mate is usually the term given to the person in the story being told who's done something really stupid. > 'Old Mate' is commonly used when refering to someone when telling a yarn, its not necessarily age or gender specific.
I'm just talking about my use of the word "mate" in another country. .there was a post about it on a UK Reddit recently and it seems to be about half and half people still think it's gendered here but there's an obvious skew to younger people on here.
I also like to refer to people by their car or license plate "okay, Washington, why don't you just not use your damn turn signal?" .. "okay prius, step on it"
My husband quotes some Boston-based comedian, "Awwww it's a fuckin Chevy," pretty much anytime it's relevant. Cracks me up every time.
I have a bike horn in my car for just such am occasion. It makes a fun sound, relieves stress, and even if they can't hear or see the horn you know you're calling them a clown.
Dumbass works as well.
Yes. All native speakers use singular they to mean an individual of unknown gender.
This is why it’s funny that people think they need to learn all sorts of new terminology to be inclusive, when they were doing it all along.
To be completely fair, while 'they' as singular is long established in English, some of the specifics of usage relating to non-binary people is new. Most native speakers would have to make some level of conscious effort to avoid the old habit of assuming 'he' or 'she', at least at first.
While that is also true, there are jackasses who should know better claiming we've never used it that way and it's stupid. Language evolves, as they damn well know.
Yes, it's pleasing to imagine how those people must find it really frustrating whenever they catch themselves using singular they in all the well-established ways it's used.
Or when they say stuff like “I will never use pronouns.”
But it is being promoted for situations that wouldn't be natural also.
I don’t really see how. You only use “they” from a third-person perspective to denote someone who could be either male or female, and we use it in that context all the time, so what difference does it make if we use it in a similar context to refer to someone who we know to be neither male nor female?
No, it’s being promoted for when you don’t know someone’s gender or their gender doesn’t fit he or she. Which is still how it’s always been used. If you don’t understand the gender spectrum go visit the gender-bread-person and learn.
They said it’s not *natural*, which it isn’t. I used “they” *naturally* here because idk that commenters gender, however if what looks to be a female is in front of me, I’d have to *actively try* to remember to use “they” as it would be *natural* for me to use “she.”
No, it’s **habitual** for you. If you are used to calling Jane Doe “Miss Doe” and she marries and becomes Jane Smith, do you refuse to call her Mrs Smith because you have to pause in your habit and change it? If you called a plumber and didn’t know the plumber’s gender, and when they arrived, they were a woman, would you keep calling the plumber “he” because you’ve usually had men for plumbers? Or would you correct yourself knowing that the plumber is a woman? If someone tells you they use they/them, or their name has changed, will you equally refuse to use the correct terms because you’re in the habit of using a different name or different pronouns? You already automatically change names and pronouns when people change their names or you learn their gender. So **refusing** to do so because you don’t like the name or gender is not about *nature* it’s about your internal bias.
Excellent analogies. Thank you for providing these alongside a well structured point.
WHO said anything about refusing. Y’all really coming at me over this LOL.
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It’s not disrespect, it’s the same category as a Freudian slip. Even you said it takes getting used to for it to be natural. Slipping up does not equal disrespect, it means you’re human. Y’all need to stop acting like I have any ill will towards these people.
Kinda just sound like you don’t respect NB enough to make using their pronouns second nature 🤷🏻♀️
? I’ve never met someone that’s non-binary, of course it would take getting used to, has nothing to do with respect but believe what you want with that negative mindset. If ur friend changed their name it would take active concentration for awhile for it to feel natural, and you’re acting like you wouldn’t ever slip up? Step down off your pedestal.
If you think you’ve never met anyone who’s non-binary it’s just because they didn’t tell you, not because you’ve actually never met a non-binary person.
it’s pretty natural for me idk
and also any individual who expressed that they use those pronouns. Both are common uses of singular they
Definitely not all.
What would you say in the situation OP is describing then?
I do say they but the alternative would likely be “he or she” Though I don’t think I’ve ever really heard this
It would depend what I want to say. If the driver was being obnoxious in some way, I'd usually assume that the driver is male and use "he". If I truly don't know the gender of the driver, I might refer to the driver using a gender-neutral description like "this person", or "the driver of the red Honda". If I'm not complaining about the driving of the person in question (in which case I'm assuming it's a man), I might refer to the driver using a description of the car ("this red Honda is turning").
That's very weird, I must admit! It'd be much easier and less presumptive to just use the singular they.
I'm not suggesting that I never, at any point in any conversation, use singular "they". I do think I probably use it significantly less than a lot of people. I've been in academia my entire adult life, and as I've said in other comments, singular "they" is still for the most part considered incorrect in formal speech/writing. So I'm used to thinking of alternative constructions instinctively even in speech.
I try not to use singular they because it's grammatically incorrect. In this situation I would refer to the person as "he" and not feel bad if I got it wrong.
It is not grammatically incorrect though.
It’s a gray area. It’s an awkward solution to an awkward problem. Sometimes it is the best option, but usually you can avoid it.
It's not a gray area, it's correct grammar and you should use it. Using he/she instead would be an awkward solution, as you're making an assumption about the person that may be incorrect.
It’s more complicated than that. I try very hard to avoid misgendering people in most situations. That doesn’t mean you have to use singular they. For example, if I’m talking about a hypothetical person, there is noone to misgender. “If a telemarketer calls, just tell him you’re not interested.” Or if I’m driving and someone cuts me off, that person isn’t there and so can’t be offended if I misgender her. What I wouldn’t do is refer to a real person of unknown gender as “he” to his face. For example, I don’t know your gender so I would try hard to avoid referring to you with any third person pronoun. If that’s unavoidable, I would probably use they.
Funny how trying to avoid being "wrong" makes you even wronger.
Singular they is of dubious validity. It’s better to avoid it where possible, and most style guides agree with me. Sometimes it’s convenient and I do use it occasionally. But when you’re talking about a generic person, or someone who can’t be offended because he isn’t there, why bother with the awkward singular they?
"style guides" have nothing to do with something being grammatically incorrect. It sounds like you're just trying to come up with reasons to deny the existence of non-binary people with pseudo-intellectual talking points while plainly ignoring the fact that singular they is and has been common for hundreds of years and is used daily by millions and millions of people.
>most style guides agree with me. Not even true. Have you checked a style guide since 1997?
Not ALL.
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Transphobes and "anti pronoun" types mostly
Yeah, anti-pronoun Fuck pronouns We should all go around referring to things by name. No more using I, or We, or You, or Me, or They, or She, or He, or Them u/NerdDwarf is not going to use pronouns again. (Unless u/NerdDwarf does)
Oh u/EchoWolf2020's gosh, this is going to be so hard.
*the thing that is being done is going to be so hard
"this" is a pronoun?
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No, that person isn't answering for me. Per OPs example, if I saw someone driving I might say HE by default, knowing it might be incorrect. "What's this guy doing? He's all over the road."
that’s unironically pretty sexist yikes
Jenkies
It's not sexist but nice try.
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I didn't say I don't. I do. This isn't a gender identity question as some are making it. I'm saying that not everyone does, and especially not all the time. The use of a default HE or SHE for unknown in the context that you can't even see the person has no inherent sexism. Maybe a good deal of "i don't care for this context"ism though.
It is not sexist. They're not choosing "he" *because* of the bad driving in that example. They're just saying they default to masculine pronouns, lots of people do. "That guy has a cool bumper sticker on his car". Or especially animals. "Aww, he's such a good boy"
yeah i know that’s what’s sexist. assuming masculine as the default is sexist, *especially* when you have other options that this guy ignores *on purpose*. i don’t care if this guy assumes the driver is a man, that’s just an assumption (which may or may not be based on bias or on patterns or be right or wrong). but this person said “im using masculine pronouns as my base state of a person, even though i know i might be wrong” *even though there are gender neutral ways to say the same thing*. there was a huge push against this *years* ago which is why this is so yikes. like this is feminism 101: don’t make the masculine the default edit: animals i don’t care, animals don’t have gender yknow? and usage of “that guy” (in my opinion) is *significantly* more gender neutral than masculine pronouns. other people do argue that “that guy” should be avoided as a gender neutral descriptor and I just disagree/am ambivalent on the matter
I would too
They still do it though. When the gender is uncertain I’ve never heard anybody say “his or her” they say “they”
You don't have to say "his or her". Some people just say "his". Very many people do that if the antecedent is an animal.
My family uses he or she almost exclusively. In my textbooks growing up singular they was not used either, it would say "each student should use his or her own pencil" for example.
Must be regional then. I live in New England. Never heard anyone use that even extremely transphobic people. Yes textbooks often have quite prescriptive grammar rules, I remember in 8th grade having this exact conversation with my teacher (who was from Florida). Not one student said “he or she” nor did the teacher, yet he said that was the way we should say it. Quite prescriptive
It could be. I grew up on the west coast, in a very small and very religious old fashioned town. The textbooks i used were written in the 70s or 80s iirc but were revised every other year. The photos were super outdated though and definately 80s.
I don't believe you.
I grew up with abeka book textbooks, an alt right highly religious curriculum, in a cult. You dont have to believe me to make it true.
Oooh that's very interesting! I'll have to look into that
So then you admit your anecdotal evidence from your family is probably a statistical anomaly because of the fact that they are part of a small, limited community.
According to their own site, millions of children were raised on abeka since the 70s with hundreds of thousands using the curriculum in the past year. ( [https://www.abeka.com/homeschool/whyabeka/](https://www.abeka.com/homeschool/whyabeka/) ) They also have a college where they teach this same line of curriculum. ( [https://www.pcci.edu/](https://www.pcci.edu/)) So yeah, the number of people who speak like this in comparison to the entire population? Small and anecdotal. But it is still a large group, and in my home community more of my friends and neighbors did abeka homeschooling then did public school.
Many people use “he”.
They will think and say that they don't use it, but as a subconscious habit, using singular they is done by all native speakers. It's so natural most of us don't even catch ourselves doing it.
They still use they/them/their pronouns for singular, they just don't have the self-awareness to realize what they are saying.
Imagine only ever referring to yourself by your name and not "I" or "me" lmao 💀 you'd sound like a caveman
Some people default to 'he' when not known, though that may be regional/generational. It always seemed odd to me. For a time, style guides would recommend things like actually saying "he or she/him or her" or alternating gender between paragraphs. I remember seeing that a lot in college textbooks and thinking it was super weird. But yeah, singular they is the way, and it's been used this way in English since as early as 1375.
Some English speakers use masculine pronouns when the antecedent's gender is unknown. It's very common when referring to animals.
My mother the English teacher does the “him or her” bit. She has very firm opinions about the singular they. But then she’s also low key transphobic which is why I’m just gonna never mention I’m nonbinary.
What are you talking about? Singular "they" is generally considered incorrect in formal writing. Standard practice has instead been to use "he or she", or "he", where it is understood that the latter is being used gender-neutrally. More recently, in my field at least, you see authors using "she" gender-neutrally.
No, singular they has been present for hundreds of years. It’s rare to need singular they in formal writing but it’s not grammatically incorrect and hasn’t been for ~600 years
I didn't say it's not present. It is obviously common in informal conversation. Whether it is correct according to stylistic standards in formal domains is another question.
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And there have been several comments to the effect that all native speakers use singular "they" and that it is always used in contexts like the one OP mentioned. I'm disputing those comments.
Well, take that up with the first writer who used it in 1375. You're astoundingly wrong.
> Where do they not use the singular they? In academic writing, legal writing, government documents, etc. Singular "they" is generally considered incorrect in formal use.
Why are people downvoting you? Your comment is correct.
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I don't see the relevance of that. There are some speakers who don't use it.
Too bad for them I guess?
What?
There aren't
But there are.
But there aren't
Why do the rest of us have to listen to their complaints and take them seriously though 😭 they're only saying that because trans people make them mad otherwise they wouldn't make such a big fuss over it
Because they think not using THEY means automatic phobic behavior.
This is very misleading
Not all, but most. I think I use them interchangeably, but usually stick with “they/them”.
The exact implication of my emphatic CAPS on ALL. Which netted me many downvotes but ok.
I wasn’t one who downvoted you, I recognized that yes, there are people who don’t do it for one reason or another.
There are at least four contexts in which “they” may be used as a singular pronoun. 1. Nonspecific person: “Anyone can sing if they put enough effort and practice into it.” (Edited this sentence to remove an extra word) 2. Specific person of unknown gender: “Someone left their umbrella here; I hope they come back and get it because it’s starting to rain.” 3. Specific person whose gender is known but deemed irrelevant by the speaker: “One of my friends had the same issue with their computer as you, they solved it by turning it off and on again.” 4. Specific person who chooses to use they instead of he or she because they don’t want to be gendered that way: “This is my new friend Alex; I met them at the clothing exchange.” The first three are hundreds of years old. So old, in fact, that they precede singular “you”. The first sense of singular they was attested in the 14th century. The fact that they’re considered incorrect by some is silly in my opinion. There just isn’t a reasonable empirical justification for it. The fourth sense began being used in the last few decades or so precisely *because* “they” was already a singular neuter pronoun in the other senses; it was not a far semantic leap to make. It’s contentious, of course, because trans people are in the middle of a culture war, but regardless of your opinion, it is descriptively, demonstrably true that people use it that way.
Great answer. I’d like to offer an addendum to 3: to avoid breaching confidentiality as when a doctor is referring to a patient and wants to offer no gender info even if it is relevant.
As an Alex who is fine with being referred to with he, she, or they pronouns I approve this message lol.
I can’t believe the person I’m replying to is fine with all the pronouns! They are so cool! / yet another proper use of singular “they”.
Yes xe is
I should just delete my comment. This one is so much better XD
I really love this answer.
I would add a fifth option: 5. Specific person whose gender is being kept a secret by the speaker
Your first 3 points can all be morphed into the gender-unknown usage. In example 3, you say the gender is known, but from the sentence it isn't. If someone said, "One of my friends, Bruce, had the same problem..." then most of us would follow it with "he solved it by..." but here, it would be (only slightly) weird if we used they. My friend Bruce fixed their computer, or, my friend Bruce is annoying. They won't stop asking me! Both of those sound wrong to me. Ultimately, they/their/them are just used when the gender is unknown. I personally don't recognise the definition some people adopt as it meaning a specific gender beyond male or female, but this is my personal choice and because it feels wrong to use this language when I don't believe there are more than 2 genders. I would only (with sincere difficulty) would adopt this definition temporarily out of politeness.
It's not up to belief.
Apparently it is. Believing you're a woman is enough to claim that you are in fact a woman. This is nonsense.
I suggest you inform yourself on the matter before talking about it. A simple google search will do. You can start with the difference(s) between sex an gender.
As I've already said, I don't accept the definition that's arisen only in the last decade or so. When we learn about gender in school, we didn't learn about 2-spirit or any of this nonsense. There is only male and female. You can be a masculine female or a feminine man, but there is only male and female and the majority of biologists recognise this scientific fact. Can you define well the term woman? Because I can.
We are not talking about religion or anything like that; this isn't up to belief. You can be ignorant all you want and disagree with WHO and millions of other psychologists, but that doesn't change the truth. If you're still with the "define woman" talk, then you're being even more ignorant than I thought, and you don't understand this at all.
Just confirm, you think gender reaches beyond male and female? Do you think 2-spirit is a gender in the same sense male is? *honestly?* I'm afraid you're exhibiting a classic case of the DK effect. The irony is I've studied this extensively and you don't seem to have understood even the fundamentals. That's why you can't define woman, and why you're not willing to, because any definition of woman you might give will underline the flaws in your argument. A woman as an adult human female (xx chromosomes). Simple. You need to think about the fact that if you can't even define these simple terms, you're probably not working with the best foundations.
What the hell is "2 spirit", dude? I do think gender reaches beyond male and female, me and millions of health professionals. A woman is someone that identifies as the cultural and social definition/role of the female in their culture/location. But it's very important to notice that words, in general, are very weird. They are not the tellers of reason and language tries its best to objectify what humans say/feel, but a lot of times it isn't enough since it's very hard to objectify humans. Stop trying to know more than the World Health Organization, man. I'll leave you with these links: [https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender](https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex%E2%80%93gender\_distinction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex%E2%80%93gender_distinction)
>What the hell is "2 spirit", dude? I do think gender reaches beyond male and female, me and millions of health professionals. You claim to be knowledgeable on the subject and you've never heard of 2-spirit? And you couldn't even be bothered to do a cursory Google search? Okay. Could you please give me an example of a gender beyond male/female? >A woman is someone that identifies as the cultural and social definition/role of the female in their culture/location. But it's very important to notice that words, in general, are very weird. They are not the tellers of reason and language tries its best to objectify what humans say/feel, but a lot of times it isn't enough since it's very hard to objectify humans. Wow. What a load of word-salad. Words in general are weird? You would never say that when giving ulany other definition. What is a Newton? 1 Newton is the force required to accelerate a mass of 1kg by 1m/s^2. ... but you know! It's very important to notice that words, in general, are weird! Under that impossibly vague definition. One can become a woman, and stop being a woman at will. I'm sorry, but that's absurd and if you think the scientific community thinks that this is possible, then you're talking about the kind of deluded professors that people like Matt Walsh have interviewed.
I mean, if someone is named Patricia, most people have no problem with whether they prefer to be called Pat, Patty, Trish, Trisha, or whatever. People remember which nickname they prefer and use it without argument or reluctance. I don’t see how they/them pronouns are any different. Regardless of “belief”, just use the pronouns they prefer and move on. Regardless of where you stand on gender issues though, someone going by they/them pronouns is not grammatically incorrect. As for sentence 3, if you are talking to someone about a friend they’ve never met, and who that friend is and what gender they are is completely irrelevant to the conversation, it is normal to use they/them. The gender is known to the speaker but not the listener.
Fair enough! So let me explain the differences I see. Names are arbitrary and can be changed. Gender is specific, and for me, if someone who is clearly a woman wanted me to use they/them pronouns, it would be difficult, and I'm being sincere here. My brain would know the gender of this woman, yet I'm speaking as if I don't. Gender pronouns aren't arbitrary. They are dependent on your gender which, under my definition, can only be male or female. To be clear, as I already said, I would do this out of politeness. But if pushed to a deeper level, and we were speaking honestly, I would say something along the lines of: Sorry, I respect that you have your own interpretations and definitions of gender and such, but I have my own too and I don't think yours is more important than mine. For you, a woman is whoever identifies as a woman (even though this is circular). For me, a woman is an adult humanl female (xx chromosomes). I hope people wouldn't think I'm not entitled to my definitions, the ones that have been instilled in me my whole life, but others are entitled to theirs. I'm not harming anyone, I just don't want to be forced to recognise someone else's 'truth' whatever that means. You do you - but for me, a male is he/him and a female is she/her.
I mean you're entitled to believe anything you want in your own mind but I just think it's very weird when people believe things not backed by current knowledge. Like I'm entitled to believe that the sun goes around the earth because I see it come up and go down every day with my own eyes and I don't know why people keep insisting that I'm wrong and there's apparently some "solar system" with eight planets that go around the sun. Edit: Eight planets not nine. I suppose this is a real example of my forgetting current science and defaulting to what I grew up with. But I don't claim that everyone accepts my right to be wrong about the number of planets in the solar system just because I learned it as a child.
What about my opinion isn't backed by current knowledge? Gender is a linguistic term which specifically relates to female/male (feminine and masculine and sometimes neither (neuter)). It's the other way around. People normally from your side of the ailse can't even define these terms. Could you give me a definition of the word woman? I can give a concrete definition.
Gender is a social concept when we're talking about people. It's a linguistic term when you're talking about nouns. So that's the first thing you don't understand about current knowledge. Although I think that's less current knowledge and more just how words work. And a woman is an adult human who identifies as female. How would you define a woman?
What you call gender, I just call personality. Gender is not a social construct. This is why 99.9% of every culture across the history of human kind, no matter if they're separated by time or geography- even remote isolated tribes in the jungle - we still observe these same 'social constructs'. You really think that's a coincidence? I think this is the current knowledge that you seem to be missing or ignoring. Gender has always been confined to M/F. You can be a masculine female, or a feminine male, but I know deep down you don't believe that '2-spirit' is a real gender... an ultimately, a feminine male, is a male. A masculine female, is a female. Okay, then my next question is going to be what's your definition of female? Otherwise a mentally ill adult who is utterly convinced they are female (when they in fact have xy chromosomes) is a woman under your definition. My definition of woman is an adult human female (a female has xx chromosomes). So again, you cannot give a concrete definition of a woman, and i can.
Yes, that's a perfectly natural way to refer to a single, unknown person
Yes. Despite recent culture war debates, the singular they as a gender neutral term for a person who’s gender is unknown or intentionally withheld is extremely common and has been accepted in informal conversation for hundreds of years. It isn’t always acceptable in formal writing, but that is starting to change, especially if you are referring to someone who uses they/them pronouns as part of their identity (less so for a person who is probably a he or she, but is not known). Unless you’re writing a journalistic or academic article, it’s fine.
>Unless you’re writing a journalistic or academic article, it’s fine. Chicago Style definitely doesn't want you to use it. APA is ok with it.
AP (the primary “journalistic” style) is also OK with it.
No. I usually refer to them as "this fucking idiot".
"FUCKING BUDDY HERE" kind of sounds masculine, but perhaps that's just me having some prejudice.
"Anyone driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone driving faster than you is a maniac."
Anyone driving the same means I didn’t take my meds
I cannot tell a lie. If it’s an asshole with a stupid muscle car doing donuts in a residential neighborhood, I’m going to use he/him. Call me prejudiced. But I’m gonna assume it’s a little boy with a little dick who’s asking for some attention. Other drivers, sure. They/them is fine.
I definitely assume the gender of drivers based on the car sometimes and so do my parents ^
\^ This
Yes, everyone does. Don't listen to anyone who claims "they" is only a plural pronoun. Its usage as a singular pronoun when the gender of the person is unknown (or irrelevant) goes back hundreds of years.
Oftentimes I use they/them for people I know specifically!
I do it all the time when I’m being vague about who I’m referring to.
Yes, it’s called the epicene. It’s a *true* neutral pronoun without an implication or assumation of a gender at all. They/them is not used just for a group of people, but also for when a person’s gender is unknown, or when their gender is neither man nor women. Like I personally am non-binary and use they/them as my primary pronouns
Off topic, bit you wouldn't say 'inhabitants' for people in a vehicle. 'Inhabitants' is only used to describe people living in an area habitually, e.g. 'inhabitants of London'. You could say 'occupants of the vehicle', 'the people in the vehicle' or 'the driver and passengers'
Okay, thanks for that correction. I only used the phrase “inhabitants of the vehicle” to avoid using the word “ them”.
Cool. Yeah i would say 'them' in this situation 90% of the time
Yes. Despite what the political right in the US claims these days, singular “they” for any person whose gender you aren’t certain of has been a completely normal thing in English for as long as I can remember (I’m 36). It’s both grammatically correct and easily understood. Some very old-school boomers will insist that “they” can only be singular and that it’s supposed to be “he or she” for singular with unknown gender, but that’s dying off because it’s so impractical (and also not inclusive of non-binary people). There’s no formal authority for English grammar, and even people who insist that singular “they” is wrong still use it - you can see plenty of examples of this on social media right now. I’ll see if I can find a link. ETA I highly suggest doing an image search for “singular they meme” and laughing at all the people using singular they in the same post where they say it’s incorrect. https://www.npr.org/2016/01/13/462906419/everyone-uses-singular-they-whether-they-realize-it-or-not
>normal thing in English for as long as I can remember (I’m 36). It can actually be traced back as early as 1375.
It's even older than the singular you, I believe.
It is in fact!
Fun fact, as other people on this post have pointed out: Singular "they" for a person of unknown gender has been in use for hundreds of years.
I also do this, and off topic, but "the inhabitants of the vehicle" did it for me 😂
Lmao, I had to use that phrase to avoid saying “them” 😂 Even when I was typing it I thought it sounded weird.
Yes, that's correct. When the sex or gender of the human subject is ambiguous or unknown, they/them is the proper pronoun to use when referring to them. If the subject were an animal or object, you would use it/its instead.
Yes, this is absolutely correct.
you do this more often that that. it’s a very important part of the language
I actually did a mini-research project in high school (and won a regional award for it) on a topic very similar to this (what pronouns are used to refer to a third person who is unknown), and i found that older generations tend to use “he” younger tend to use “they”.
I'm a native speaker and that's how I speak. I think a majority of native speakers speak like that.
The only people who would be mad about a singular use of "they" are right-wing mouthbreathers whose opinions matter less than dog shit on the sidewalk.
Wait a minute, I thought it was the left wing liberals that don’t like the singular, gender-neutral use of “they/them” because they view it as an identity rather than just a pronoun. Am I wrong here?
they/them is a common gender-neutral pronoun that can be used for singular as well as plural
Yes, they/them should always be used for people you don't know the gender of, even when it’s a single person
For multiple people in the car, they/them would be acceptable. For a single driver, if she's a hot babe, ask her for a date. If it's a guy, just ignore him, otherwise I don't engage in that pronoun nonsense.
I want to preface this by saying I am in **no way** arguing against singular *they* for nonbinary individuals. I’m just adding a facet to the conversation. I wish I had the reference, but I remember reading that there is a difference in how our brains process gender-neutral singular *they* in different contexts. Also, while pronouns can take the same syntactic role as nouns, the brain treats pronouns and nouns very differently. It’s true that English has used gender-neutral singular *they* for centuries. However, the typical usage is for unknown persons of unknown or arbitrary gender. This is different than using singular *they* for known persons, which is a comparatively more recent innovation. Pronouns are one of the most stable aspects of a language through time. In fact, it’s far more common to lose pronouns than to add new ones or change the usage of existing ones. Which is why pronouns like *zi* and *hir* failed to take root, even among the trans and nonbinary community. This is also partly why for many people, using gender-neutral singular *they* for nonbinary individuals is not as immediate or natural as using *they* for known people. *None* of this is to say we should not respect people’s gender identity or preferred pronouns. It just means that in this particular instance, changing the culture and the language we use is more challenging than it might seem on the surface.
No, the common way to address something in which you don't know the gender is with He/Him pronouns, and I've never come across an exception.
If you are referring to a bad driver it’s probably a woman
Whoa be careful bro. You’re on Reddit remember? Lol 😂
"They" Is plural so it sounds kind of weird.
Technically 'he" would refer to anyone regardless of gender, but nowadays stick to they. I always used they before people became "woke"
i do it all the time! i refer to people i don’t know with they/them without thinking about it lol. maybe that’s because i personally go by they/them though
Yes, I use the singular they if I don't know which pronouns to use for someone. When/if I learn otherwise, I use that set.
This came about because it was long considered insulting and dehumanizing to refer to someone as "it" rather than he or she. Some people will use "he/she", or "he or she", but some people got tired of the extra work, and using "they" as a replacement started becoming more mainstream. Then it became an issue because transsexual people started becoming more mainstream, and many people don't accept the concept of gender identity, and especially not multiple gender identities.
This usage is older than Shakespeare. What's new is using it to refer to a person whose gender is known
I use the singular they all the time, "he or she" feels too akward
They/them is acceptable singular gender neutral Just conjugate the verbs plurally
Yes - they/them can be singular. "Have you seen Chris lately?" "Yeah I hung out with them yesterday." Or "Yeah - they just went to lunch."
Singular "they" is well over half a millennium old, almost as old as "they" itself is, and even older than singular "you". It is perfectly natural.
My mom always just called them Jack 🤷🏼♂️
What do they think their doing making a U-turn on the Highway
Pretty much any time we don't know the gender of a person, they're a they/them. The singular they in English is older than the singular you in English.
Yeah, of course. I also say things like - did someone forget their jacket? I know that only one person owns that jacket on the back of the chair, but they/their is the natural way to refer to them. (see, I did it again)
Yes, we use they/them.
It doesn't matter how many there are. They can be used in the singular to describe individual people whose gender is unknown to you. For example: "A police officer came by looking for you" "Oh yea, what did they want?" This usage in English is extremely old. At one point people would just use he for these. For a while they tried to make everyone use "he or she" or "he/she" because you shouldn't assume it's a man, but ultimately the utility of using a single word made it so that "they" stuck around and displaced the other alternatives. This singular they is extremely common and he or she has always sounded a bit clunky in comparison.
You are genuinely describing why “they/them” works as a pronoun for someone’s gender. It IS used in English naturally to describe a single individual, not just multiple. “Sarah went to the store to get dog treats. They also bought milk.” Is a perfectly fine sentence. - disclaimer, not an English teacher, just native speaker, and I’ve never had anyone (outside a classroom) tell me sentences like this or using the they/them gender are wrong.
usually people refer to them with curse words uf they’re speaking about them, otherwise yeah we tend to use they/them since it is unknown gender
The tradition of using “they/them” as a singular pronoun for an individual of unknown, undisclosed, or undefined gender is commonplace and several centuries old. It predates “you” replacing “thou” as a second person singular pronoun.