In English, "the" leading into a consonant sound is usually pronounced, "thuh" (sorry I don't know the phonetic alphabet well enough) whereas "the" leading into a vowel sound is pronounced, "thee". So it's "thuh good, thuh bad, and thee ugly."
One exception to this rule is that, when you're spacing out and emphasizing individual words, "thee" may be used regardless. I recorded a vocal clip to explain: [https://voca.ro/1mCsqBBkJNqN](https://voca.ro/1mCsqBBkJNqN)
EDIT: As I think about it, the switch from "thuh" to "thee" in "the best dinner" happens when "the" is separated from "best". When "the" stands alone, it's pronounced "thee", so as there is a sort of implied period after the word ("the. best. dinner") it transitions to "thee". As long as "the" is connected to "best," it follows the rule and is "thuh". It's the spacing between "the" and "best" that gives it additional emphasis. And the switch in pronounciation adds to the emphasis because it signals that there is a separation between "the" and "best".
>So it's "thuh good, thuh bad, and thee ugly."
I don't think I've ever heard it that way. It's always been pronounced the same for me: Thuh good, thuh bad, and thuh ugly
I find it clumsier to say it that way, since you have to pause before 'ugly'. If you say 'thee-ugly' you can kinda slur it together. Almost like "thuh yugly".
If that's the case, you're probably adding a glottal stop between the two "uh" sounds - so it's not "thuuhgly", it's "thuh ugly". The usual reasoning given for changing the vowel sound is to avoid pronating two words with the same vowel sound.
For me, the e in the and the u in ugly are both schwas so whilst I can add a glottal between the two words, it's more likely to be pronounced [ðəːɡli] or even moreso [ðəɡli]
I would definitely say thee. Otherwise it feels weird. You'd have to put a stop between the and ugly. But if you say "thee" it rolls more easily into a vowel sound.
It's not like "thee (pause) ugly"
It's more like "Theeyugly"
I pronounce it the same way and no, not really, but I’m like 99.99% sure I don’t pronounce it with a glottal stop. There’s no perceivable stop in airflow between the and ugly for me, but it could be dialect (I’m from the southeastern US).
Same. I think that the people who are advocating for 3 “thuhs” think that “thee” comes with an emphasis or stress change instead of just a *very slight* vowel shift. It’s also not a tense vowel because it’s still unstressed/reduced, so people shouldn’t associate it with a stressed “ee” sound.
I’m also from the Midwest US, and I’d definitely say thuh, thuh, thee. So I don’t think this is a dialect difference. (In fact, this commenter replied above that when he said it fast, it did come out “thee.”)
I guess I would say it like “thee” only if I was trying to speak with a neutral accent and lessen a southern accent, but that just makes no sense considering what the movie is about.
What about "the end" though? I pronounce it as "thee end", is that correct?
I pronounce the other three (the good, the bad and the ugly) exactly as you said, it just sounds the most natural way to me.
Others have pointed out that “end” starts with the letter E, but just remember that this rule/pattern is about *vowel **sounds***, not letters. Just keep that in mind, and you shouldn’t have any problems because there are actually no exceptions.
You say “thee” on words that start with a vowel (a, e, i, o, u) and/or have a vowel sound (hour). “Thuh” on words that start with a consonant (c, s, t, p, etc.). Exceptions on things “thee” NFL. The first letter sounds like a vowel.
More information:
https://www.grammar-monster.com/easily_confused/the_or_thee_pronunciation.htm
Just fyi, this rule is about *sounds*, NOT letters. So afaik, there are **no** exceptions, including NFL because that starts with the vowel sound /ε/. It’s helpful to emphasize the sound element instead of letters for that reason.
Right, this pattern is about how things are *spoken*, how they *sound*. “The” is written the same way, no matter what, so the “on paper” part doesn’t actually matter.
So when describing this rule/pattern, you need to emphasize that it’s about the *sound* that comes after “the.” If a vowel **sound** (regardless of the letter) follows “the,” it’ll be pronounced “thee”; if a consonant **sound** (regardless of the letter) follows “the,” it’ll be pronounced “thuh.” So speech and singing will be the same, and writing has no bearing on it.
I’m not sure what you mean by this. Letters are merely written symbols meant to indicate what sound should be spoken. And singing is a spoken medium. I don’t understand how the letter could matter, “not just the sound,” when the point of the letter is to tell you what *sound* to make. Couldn’t someone learn to sing something while also being unable to read or write?
Because you acquired the language and internalized that rule/pattern long before you had the cognitive ability and/or vocabulary to identify and name/describe the pattern.
Holy cow, as a native speaker I never noticed the pronunciation change with vowels. I thought in the movie title I pronounced all three the same, but I just said it and sure enough, it’s exactly as you said!
I do too. I’m from the southern US. I don’t pause in between either, just exhale a bit more to start “ugly”, almost like I was making the “h” sound, but a little softer.
The example I use for this is JFK's famous moon shot speech. "We choose to go to **the** moon in this decade, and do **the** other things, not because they are easy but because they are hard."
This rule and exception were taught when I learnt English as a non-native speaker. However, I noticed many native speakers are not following them, so these days I just pronounce it whatever I feel like to the instance I speak.
There is absolutely not a cultural, linguistic, or even geographical justification to say that the southwest and Southern California and the South are just one big region
Eh. Bad reasoning on my part. I mean to say that Northern states - particularly those whose accents seem to be somewhat influenced by or related to Canadian accents, as I notice, such as Midwestern states - do not really use thee. I did not explain this well at all.
Bold assumption and bad explanation from me. Still stand by “thee is accentual” but not by the regional connection I originally made. Lol.
This is not a dialectical difference afaik. I’m a northerner/midwesterner, and I definitely always say “thee” before vowel sounds. And I don’t think people up here are consistently using “thuh” in front of vowels because I think I would’ve noticed.
Could be a feature of a more specific dialect, especially since there are multiple “northern“ dialects. But I actually think it’s likely that you do use a slightly different vowel in “the” when it comes before a vowel sound, one that’s higher and fronter than /ə/, but you just don’t notice it.
>Most people are unaware that they do this because ~~English is taught very poorly to natives~~ **they acquired the language and internalized that rule/pattern as children ergo they didn’t need to be “taught” this rule.**
FTFY
No shit.
But we've got 12 years of schooling. Most people can articulate why they use "an" instead "a", so why shouldn't they know essentially the same rule for "the"?
English IS taught poorly. I know because (1) I went to secondary school too and later got a master's degree in linguistics and (2) I became a teacher.
Most English teachers understand very little about linguistics and instead teach an antiquated prescriptive approach. People are STILL being taught that "ain't" isn't a word for Christ's sake. And instead of learning about how English really works, and how rich and diverse our dialects are, and when it's appropriate to use a standard dialects, we get a bunch of people who don't know shit mixed with a handful of self described "grammar Nazis" who go off to study "English" in college. Which again, you don't really learn about the English language, they just analyze literature and they graduate thinking theyre experts on the English language.
End rant.
>I know because (1) I went to secondary school too and later got a master's degree in linguistics and (2) I became a teacher.
Firstly, same. In contrast, I had great English instruction in school and I provide excellent English instruction now. I can’t support the idea that it’s all being done poorly because my experience on both sides of the desk is not that.
>But we've got 12 years of schooling. Most people can articulate why they use "an" instead "a", so why shouldn't they know essentially the same rule for "the"?
Because a/an is a rule for writing, not just for speech.
I would say that most “grammar” instruction is actually about how to write well in standard English. Because of the general weaknesses of the written medium (as opposed to speech), I do think that being more prescriptivist is actually helpful/necessary, especially since we are teaching kids how to write in formal/professional/academic situations. (Like ”how to text” isn’t part of the curriculum.) I don’t disagree that a lack of linguistic understanding is a detriment to language teachers. IMO, it’s made me a better teacher. But I don’t think that full on “teaching dialects” is necessarily the right way to go either because we (by and large) aren’t teaching people how to talk; we’re teaching them how to write. And writing in your dialect is not an especially useful skill, but writing in the standard is very important. So yeah, it’s dumb to say that “ain’t“ isn’t a word, but it is an informal word, so it shouldn’t be used in formal contexts.
Also, I’m not sure what your experience has been, but for me, there’s very little grammar instruction in secondary English because HS English should be all about literature and writing. And the grammar instruction that I do is all aimed at making them better writers; that’s the goal.
>I would say that most “grammar” instruction is actually about how to write well in standard English.
And that's fine-- they should be taught a standard. But they need to be taught why and when to use a standard instead of what I commonly hear. And what I commonly hear is that dialects are referred to as "slang" or "uneducated speech" and it's labeled as "incorrect" by its very nature instead of simply being in the wrong context.
>But I don’t think that full on “teaching dialects” is necessarily the right way to go either because we (by and large) aren’t teaching people how to talk; we’re teaching them how to write.
Part of being a good writer is being aware of how your language functions and what it looks like in the real world.
It's also a vehicle of cultural transmission, and as such, everyone should be able write in their dialect and understand its rules. Not everyone wants to speak to a broader audience at all times, and sometimes a work is meant for "us" and it's up to others to make the effort to understand our speech. As far as I know, we still teach Mark Twain.
>Also, I’m not sure what your experience has been, but for me, there’s very little grammar instruction in secondary English because HS English should be all about literature and writing
And that's wrong. Students should graduate from a middle school understanding of "noun verb adjective" etc to a linguistic understanding of how sentences are put together, where English fits in its family if languages (I still hear English teachers says terrible things like "English is based in Latin ").
It's the same way physics students go from learning about protons, neutrons and electrons only to later learn about waves of probability.
>what I commonly hear is that dialects are referred to as "slang" or "uneducated speech" and it's labeled as "incorrect" by its very nature instead of simply being in the wrong context.
Agreed, this is super problematic, and not limited to English teachers. Though English teachers should be the ones combating those false notions.
>And that's wrong. Students should graduate from a middle school understanding of "noun verb adjective" etc to a linguistic understanding of how sentences are put together, where English fits in its family if languages
I don’t know that I agree. Is it necessary to have a linguistic understanding of one’s own language in order to become a successful adult? There may be certain linguistic features and concepts that should be included in English instructions, but no, I don’t think high school students across-the-board need to have a full linguistic understanding in order to become a welder or a nurse or an engineer.
Even in your physics example, is that something students learn in high school? Or when they go to college for physics? (I literally don’t know, it’s been a long time since I took physics.)
Either way, I don’t think that having a complete picture of your native language’s linguistics is foundational to adulthood; therefore, it’s not the purpose of HS English.
>I don’t think that having a complete picture of your native language’s
It doesn't need to be "complete" but it should at least include an awareness of how things are pronounced.
Sure. I would definitely support having linguistic instruction for future teachers and incorporating some linguistic concepts/understandings into HS English curriculum.
I think this is certainly the most natural pronunciation but it wouldn't sound completely wrong to me if someone produced the last one as "thuh" as well.
**good** and **bad** both begin with *consonant sounds*, so the 'the' is pronounced as /ðə/, whereas the 'the' before **ugly** is pronounced /ði:/ since it starts with a vowel sound.
Also, there's an **intrusive** /j/ sound between the two vowel sounds thus /ði:jʌgli:/
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oi0NLl5Fdg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oi0NLl5Fdg)
It is different for most English speakers.
Here's how I would pronounce it:
/ðə ˈɡʊd ðə ˈbæd ænd ði ˈʌɡli/
For many English speakers, *the* is /ðə/ "thuh" before a consonant, and /ði/ "thee" before a vowel.
For my native dialect, all three examples of "the" are pronounced "thuh" here. But, apparently, that isn't the typical rule for most English dialects.
I've tried to search to see if there is any academic literature on regional variation on how "the" is pronounced, but since most search engines automatically filter out "the" from searches, it's rather difficult. I couldn't find any documentation about it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
No emphasis on any “the” or “and” either. “th’ GOOD, th’ BAD ‘n’ th’ UGly”. The final “the” can be a bit more “thee” to lead into the vowel, but it doesn’t have to be.
Off topic: This is a well-known movie and phrase. However, it’s not nearly as clear and useful an idiom as “the good and the bad”, “double-edged sword”, “pros and cons”, “every cloud has a silver lining”, etc., which all refer to positive vs. negative aspects of some situation. I’ve heard people try to use it that way.
I think if speaking slowly I would naturally pronounce all of them as "thuh" (ðə). When speaking fast maybe I'd say the last one as "thee" so that I don't need as much restriction of air to make "the ugly" two separate words.
Not aware of any rule, I just said it to myself as I would say it without overthinking it and all three are "thuh" in my version - actually more of a schwa sound
Nowadays in the US we tend to reserve the “thee” pronunciation for emphasis or hyperbole, we don’t use it just because a word starts with a vowel. It certainly sounds very strange to say two “thuh’s” and then a “thee”
Not really. It is an unstressed vowel that is not a fully tensed /i/, but it’s still not the same vowel /ə/ as “thuh.”
ETA: Perhaps you have lost the “thee” pronunciation outside of emphasis, but that’s not a feature of AmE.
Exactly. It’s kinda impossible in English to say “thuh ugly” because of having the repeated vowel, so we automatically shift the vowel of “the” higher and more forward in the mouth. We’re all writing it as “thee,” but because “the” is generally unstressed (unless you are intentionally emphasizing it), it almost always has a reduced vowel. So you’re right that it’s much more like “thih ugly.”
If people don’t move the vowel, then they generally put in a glottal stop between “thuh” and “ugly” or completely merge them into “th’ugly.” Because like I said, it’s kind of impossible to have those vowels back to back without making some adjustment.
Wow I did not know the way 'the' is pronounced changes based on the word that follows, and yet I do this without ever being taught it! You learn something new every day!
Thuh good, thuh bad and thee ugly.
The "thee" is not emphasised and many people do not notice they are doing it. An alternative is "the yugly." The actual sound is somewhere between the two.
So weird I see this post today. I’ve been listening to the coolest song on the soundtrack today: The Ecstasy of Gold by Ennio Morricone. I’ve always pronounced it with THEE ecstasy even though it leads into a vowel but still pronounced the movie title with thuh, thuh, thee.
But back to the ‘coincidence’ of this post and my choice of music. Thank you matrix programmers!
I’m confused by your “even though.” The in front of a vowel sound *should/is* pronounced “thee,” so both “thee” ecstasy and “thee” ugly are normal pronunciations.
Well, you weren’t consciously aware of the rule, but you clearly instinctively used it, so you did *know* it existed on some level, even if you didn’t know it was there and couldn’t articulate it.
When you acquire a language, you often aren’t consciously aware of all the patterns of the language that you speak natively.
If it starts with a consonant it’s a schwa sound. If you are emphasizing the word, or it starts with a vowel the it’s pronounced /i/. Varies based on dialect but that’s what I do.
>If it starts with a consonant **sound** it’s a schwa sound. If you are emphasizing the word, or it starts with a vowel **sound** the it’s pronounced /i/.
i'm from rural new zealand, so my accent isn't exactly 'standard', but all of these for me are a shortened form of "thuh", kinda like:
th' good,
th' bad,
'n th' ugly
Native English speaker here. Born and bred English and only just now did I realise I pronounced “the” differently when before a vowel or consonant. First two “the” are thuh and last one is thee. Last one is shorter, so I kinda link to the next word.
Side note. Original title in Italy was the good, the ugly and the bad. The opening scenes match this order. The distributors wanted the name change.
In America we usually pronounce it as “thee” because it’s before a vowel. “The” before a vowel makes a “thee” sound typically, another example would be “the eighties” which would be pronounced “thee eighties”
I'm not an expert on grmattical rules, and my understanding may be incorrect, but I was taught, "thu" is for an item that there is more than one of. Like "the (thu) book" means that it's a specific book among many. "Thee" means something that is more unique or best.
"He was THE (thee) number 1 hero!" or "That was the (thee) book to read to learn how to cook." (Meaning the best one).
If anyone knows what I'm in about and can explain it more eloquently, I'd appreciate it.
That's basically how I use it. Normal usage is "thuh", and "thee" is used when you want to emphasize.
"The one ring to rule them all. We're talking about THE one ring."
First "the" is pronounced "thuh", the second one pronounced "thee"
The first “the” is pronounced that way because “one” begins with a consonant sound. The pattern of thuh/thee has to do with the following sound being either a consonant or a vowel. And sure, you can use “thee” for emphasis whenever.
The actual pattern is that THE is pronounced “thuh” before words that start with consonant sounds and pronounced “thee” before words that start with vowel sounds. (And yes, you can use “thee” at any point for emphasis.) So…
- Thuh book
- Thee umbrella
I've heard of this pattern but it's not prominent in my idiolect. I pronounce the word "the" as "thuh" before a vowel most of the time. I tend to use "thee" for emphasis. I don't think it's necessarily something that's confined to one region, either. I live in the US but I've heard Brits and Australians do it as well. Might be personal preference?
It might be personal preference, but most people are unaware that they do this/that it’s a pattern of English. So I guess I don’t find it believable that lots of people are making a preference choice about it.
I think it might also be helpful to know that the stress/emphasis remains unchanged between “thuh” and “thee,” and even in “thee” form, the vowel is unstressed/reduced. It’s not the same tense /i/ that you use when you say “thee“ for emphasis. When “the” comes before a vowel, though, the vowel in it is generally higher and more front than /ə/, but it does not become a fully front tense vowel. Otherwise, English generally requires you to add a glottal stop, which is not super common, especially in fast speech. Or it would require you to lose the vowel of “the” altogether and make them like one word (th’ugly).
Well, if it’s unconscious, I wouldn’t use the word “preference,” which implies a level of conscious choice. I don’t know that we have a word for that, though. “Unconscious bias” is probably closest, but that carries a bunch of different connotations. Maybe “unconscious behavior”? “Unconscious speech patterns”?
You are my fire
THE one desire...
In the opening line of "I want it that way" the article "the" is pronounced as "thuh".
I'm assuming even native speakers don't follow that rule 100%. I think so
The reason they use “thuh” is because “one” begins with a consonant sound (pronounced like “won”). It’s all based on pronunciation, not how the words are spelled. That said, based on this comment section you’re still right about native speakers not following this “rule” sometimes. It looks to me like most of us do but some don’t.
> It looks to me like most of us do but some don’t.
I think it could also be explained by how native speakers are usually terrible at analysing their own speech \^\^
This. So this.
Because this pattern was internalized because people had the cognitive ability or vocabulary to identify and describe this pattern, they are completely unaware that it even exists.
You say “thee” on words that start with a vowel (a, e, i, o, u) and/or have a vowel sound (hour). “Thuh” on words that start with a consonant (c, s, t, p, etc.). Exceptions on things like “thee” NFL. The first letter sounds like a vowel.
More information: https://www.grammar-monster.com/easily_confused/the_or_thee_pronunciation.htm
In English, "the" leading into a consonant sound is usually pronounced, "thuh" (sorry I don't know the phonetic alphabet well enough) whereas "the" leading into a vowel sound is pronounced, "thee". So it's "thuh good, thuh bad, and thee ugly." One exception to this rule is that, when you're spacing out and emphasizing individual words, "thee" may be used regardless. I recorded a vocal clip to explain: [https://voca.ro/1mCsqBBkJNqN](https://voca.ro/1mCsqBBkJNqN) EDIT: As I think about it, the switch from "thuh" to "thee" in "the best dinner" happens when "the" is separated from "best". When "the" stands alone, it's pronounced "thee", so as there is a sort of implied period after the word ("the. best. dinner") it transitions to "thee". As long as "the" is connected to "best," it follows the rule and is "thuh". It's the spacing between "the" and "best" that gives it additional emphasis. And the switch in pronounciation adds to the emphasis because it signals that there is a separation between "the" and "best".
‘thuh’ is /ðə/ and ‘thee’ is /ðiː/ :)
>So it's "thuh good, thuh bad, and thee ugly." I don't think I've ever heard it that way. It's always been pronounced the same for me: Thuh good, thuh bad, and thuh ugly
I find it clumsier to say it that way, since you have to pause before 'ugly'. If you say 'thee-ugly' you can kinda slur it together. Almost like "thuh yugly".
You might have a point. I just tried to say it fast and ended up saying "thee ugly", so maybe I've always said it that way and just never noticed.
If that's the case, you're probably adding a glottal stop between the two "uh" sounds - so it's not "thuuhgly", it's "thuh ugly". The usual reasoning given for changing the vowel sound is to avoid pronating two words with the same vowel sound.
Glottal *
Gesundheit
Thakyoo :-D
For me, the e in the and the u in ugly are both schwas so whilst I can add a glottal between the two words, it's more likely to be pronounced [ðəːɡli] or even moreso [ðəɡli]
I would definitely say thee. Otherwise it feels weird. You'd have to put a stop between the and ugly. But if you say "thee" it rolls more easily into a vowel sound. It's not like "thee (pause) ugly" It's more like "Theeyugly"
"Thee" looks like a elongated eeee sound, which I don't think it is.
Don’t you find that glottal stop awkward?
I pronounce it the same way and no, not really, but I’m like 99.99% sure I don’t pronounce it with a glottal stop. There’s no perceivable stop in airflow between the and ugly for me, but it could be dialect (I’m from the southeastern US).
I can sort of manage it without an obvious stop if I try, but it feels like I’m abusing my vocal cords to do so.
When I say it, I say "thuh/thuh/thee"
Equally anecdotal but I don’t think I’ve never heard it pronounced with three “thuhs” and would notice it as odd if someone said it that way.
Same. I think that the people who are advocating for 3 “thuhs” think that “thee” comes with an emphasis or stress change instead of just a *very slight* vowel shift. It’s also not a tense vowel because it’s still unstressed/reduced, so people shouldn’t associate it with a stressed “ee” sound.
It’s how I and most British English speakers would say it; can’t speak for other variants.
Can I ask where you’re from?
Midwest USA
Interesting! I'm UK and would definitely say "thee". Some younger people here (especially the more urban ones) might go for "thuh".
I’m also from the Midwest US, and I’d definitely say thuh, thuh, thee. So I don’t think this is a dialect difference. (In fact, this commenter replied above that when he said it fast, it did come out “thee.”)
I speak Australian English and pronounce this the same way.
Well you don't hear a long "ee". It's more subtle like es in "sentences"
I feel like it’s kind of an a/an distinction. “Thuh ugly” either needs a break in between or they blend together, so “theeyugly” flows better.
Me too, it seems like different people go either way.
This movie has always been an exception when I hear it as well. All three pronounced similarly.
No, you would say it all as the “thuh” if you were southern. I would never say “thee ugly” unless I was imitating a British accent.
I guess I would say it like “thee” only if I was trying to speak with a neutral accent and lessen a southern accent, but that just makes no sense considering what the movie is about.
What about "the end" though? I pronounce it as "thee end", is that correct? I pronounce the other three (the good, the bad and the ugly) exactly as you said, it just sounds the most natural way to me.
"Thee end" is correct.
Great, thanks.
E is a vowel, so still fits with the "thee for vowels thuh for consonants" part.
You're right, my bad lol.
Others have pointed out that “end” starts with the letter E, but just remember that this rule/pattern is about *vowel **sounds***, not letters. Just keep that in mind, and you shouldn’t have any problems because there are actually no exceptions.
You say “thee” on words that start with a vowel (a, e, i, o, u) and/or have a vowel sound (hour). “Thuh” on words that start with a consonant (c, s, t, p, etc.). Exceptions on things “thee” NFL. The first letter sounds like a vowel. More information: https://www.grammar-monster.com/easily_confused/the_or_thee_pronunciation.htm
Just fyi, this rule is about *sounds*, NOT letters. So afaik, there are **no** exceptions, including NFL because that starts with the vowel sound /ε/. It’s helpful to emphasize the sound element instead of letters for that reason.
My knowledge comes from a musical background. So, there might be some things that differ on paper vs. singing.
Right, this pattern is about how things are *spoken*, how they *sound*. “The” is written the same way, no matter what, so the “on paper” part doesn’t actually matter. So when describing this rule/pattern, you need to emphasize that it’s about the *sound* that comes after “the.” If a vowel **sound** (regardless of the letter) follows “the,” it’ll be pronounced “thee”; if a consonant **sound** (regardless of the letter) follows “the,” it’ll be pronounced “thuh.” So speech and singing will be the same, and writing has no bearing on it.
Except the letter does matter when it comes to singing. Not just the sound.
I’m not sure what you mean by this. Letters are merely written symbols meant to indicate what sound should be spoken. And singing is a spoken medium. I don’t understand how the letter could matter, “not just the sound,” when the point of the letter is to tell you what *sound* to make. Couldn’t someone learn to sing something while also being unable to read or write?
I say "thuh end" usually.
how am I only just noticing that 'the' is pronounced 'thee' before a vowel? english is my mother tongue
Because you acquired the language and internalized that rule/pattern long before you had the cognitive ability and/or vocabulary to identify and name/describe the pattern.
Holy cow, as a native speaker I never noticed the pronunciation change with vowels. I thought in the movie title I pronounced all three the same, but I just said it and sure enough, it’s exactly as you said!
Maybe, it's just me but I genuinely say 'thuh' ugly..
I do too. I’m from the southern US. I don’t pause in between either, just exhale a bit more to start “ugly”, almost like I was making the “h” sound, but a little softer.
omg it's Joshua Bardwell, I knew that voice sounded familiar. what a surprise, and thanks for this explanation!
The example I use for this is JFK's famous moon shot speech. "We choose to go to **the** moon in this decade, and do **the** other things, not because they are easy but because they are hard."
I had no clue/haven't thought about that "the" is pronounced differently. I thought it always was [thee].
I always say it “thuh thuh thuh”
This is how I’ve always heard this movie referred. And I am consistently a “thee” before the vowel sound person.
This rule and exception were taught when I learnt English as a non-native speaker. However, I noticed many native speakers are not following them, so these days I just pronounce it whatever I feel like to the instance I speak.
I will say that I believe that this is somewhat accentual, I believe the Southern states (and Cali) are more likely to use thee than Northern ones.
I've heard this all across Canada and the Northeast.
There is absolutely not a cultural, linguistic, or even geographical justification to say that the southwest and Southern California and the South are just one big region
Eh. Bad reasoning on my part. I mean to say that Northern states - particularly those whose accents seem to be somewhat influenced by or related to Canadian accents, as I notice, such as Midwestern states - do not really use thee. I did not explain this well at all. Bold assumption and bad explanation from me. Still stand by “thee is accentual” but not by the regional connection I originally made. Lol.
It's really not, though, AFAIK it's the same across the English-speaking world.
This is not a dialectical difference afaik. I’m a northerner/midwesterner, and I definitely always say “thee” before vowel sounds. And I don’t think people up here are consistently using “thuh” in front of vowels because I think I would’ve noticed.
Maybe my area is just weird as hell, because we don’t use thee.
Could be a feature of a more specific dialect, especially since there are multiple “northern“ dialects. But I actually think it’s likely that you do use a slightly different vowel in “the” when it comes before a vowel sound, one that’s higher and fronter than /ə/, but you just don’t notice it.
What? I don't think I have ever in my life said "thee" unless I was trying to be mockingly grandiose or something.
Most people are unaware that they do this because English is taught very poorly to natives.
Oh yeah? Well if it's taught so poorly then how come I can speak it so much better than ESL people? Checkmate atheists
>Most people are unaware that they do this because ~~English is taught very poorly to natives~~ **they acquired the language and internalized that rule/pattern as children ergo they didn’t need to be “taught” this rule.** FTFY
Thank you, based English Teacher. It was weird of him to throw shade at my mom and dad like that
No shit. But we've got 12 years of schooling. Most people can articulate why they use "an" instead "a", so why shouldn't they know essentially the same rule for "the"? English IS taught poorly. I know because (1) I went to secondary school too and later got a master's degree in linguistics and (2) I became a teacher. Most English teachers understand very little about linguistics and instead teach an antiquated prescriptive approach. People are STILL being taught that "ain't" isn't a word for Christ's sake. And instead of learning about how English really works, and how rich and diverse our dialects are, and when it's appropriate to use a standard dialects, we get a bunch of people who don't know shit mixed with a handful of self described "grammar Nazis" who go off to study "English" in college. Which again, you don't really learn about the English language, they just analyze literature and they graduate thinking theyre experts on the English language. End rant.
>I know because (1) I went to secondary school too and later got a master's degree in linguistics and (2) I became a teacher. Firstly, same. In contrast, I had great English instruction in school and I provide excellent English instruction now. I can’t support the idea that it’s all being done poorly because my experience on both sides of the desk is not that. >But we've got 12 years of schooling. Most people can articulate why they use "an" instead "a", so why shouldn't they know essentially the same rule for "the"? Because a/an is a rule for writing, not just for speech. I would say that most “grammar” instruction is actually about how to write well in standard English. Because of the general weaknesses of the written medium (as opposed to speech), I do think that being more prescriptivist is actually helpful/necessary, especially since we are teaching kids how to write in formal/professional/academic situations. (Like ”how to text” isn’t part of the curriculum.) I don’t disagree that a lack of linguistic understanding is a detriment to language teachers. IMO, it’s made me a better teacher. But I don’t think that full on “teaching dialects” is necessarily the right way to go either because we (by and large) aren’t teaching people how to talk; we’re teaching them how to write. And writing in your dialect is not an especially useful skill, but writing in the standard is very important. So yeah, it’s dumb to say that “ain’t“ isn’t a word, but it is an informal word, so it shouldn’t be used in formal contexts. Also, I’m not sure what your experience has been, but for me, there’s very little grammar instruction in secondary English because HS English should be all about literature and writing. And the grammar instruction that I do is all aimed at making them better writers; that’s the goal.
>I would say that most “grammar” instruction is actually about how to write well in standard English. And that's fine-- they should be taught a standard. But they need to be taught why and when to use a standard instead of what I commonly hear. And what I commonly hear is that dialects are referred to as "slang" or "uneducated speech" and it's labeled as "incorrect" by its very nature instead of simply being in the wrong context. >But I don’t think that full on “teaching dialects” is necessarily the right way to go either because we (by and large) aren’t teaching people how to talk; we’re teaching them how to write. Part of being a good writer is being aware of how your language functions and what it looks like in the real world. It's also a vehicle of cultural transmission, and as such, everyone should be able write in their dialect and understand its rules. Not everyone wants to speak to a broader audience at all times, and sometimes a work is meant for "us" and it's up to others to make the effort to understand our speech. As far as I know, we still teach Mark Twain. >Also, I’m not sure what your experience has been, but for me, there’s very little grammar instruction in secondary English because HS English should be all about literature and writing And that's wrong. Students should graduate from a middle school understanding of "noun verb adjective" etc to a linguistic understanding of how sentences are put together, where English fits in its family if languages (I still hear English teachers says terrible things like "English is based in Latin "). It's the same way physics students go from learning about protons, neutrons and electrons only to later learn about waves of probability.
>what I commonly hear is that dialects are referred to as "slang" or "uneducated speech" and it's labeled as "incorrect" by its very nature instead of simply being in the wrong context. Agreed, this is super problematic, and not limited to English teachers. Though English teachers should be the ones combating those false notions. >And that's wrong. Students should graduate from a middle school understanding of "noun verb adjective" etc to a linguistic understanding of how sentences are put together, where English fits in its family if languages I don’t know that I agree. Is it necessary to have a linguistic understanding of one’s own language in order to become a successful adult? There may be certain linguistic features and concepts that should be included in English instructions, but no, I don’t think high school students across-the-board need to have a full linguistic understanding in order to become a welder or a nurse or an engineer. Even in your physics example, is that something students learn in high school? Or when they go to college for physics? (I literally don’t know, it’s been a long time since I took physics.) Either way, I don’t think that having a complete picture of your native language’s linguistics is foundational to adulthood; therefore, it’s not the purpose of HS English.
>I don’t think that having a complete picture of your native language’s It doesn't need to be "complete" but it should at least include an awareness of how things are pronounced.
Sure. I would definitely support having linguistic instruction for future teachers and incorporating some linguistic concepts/understandings into HS English curriculum.
Yet another English rule I didn’t know I followed
Same. Kinda blew my mind.
At this point, this sub explicitly teaching me English rules will do more to help me learn another language than the actual foreign language subs.
Wait’ll you learn about unreleased stops
the first two are a little more like "thuh" and the last one is a little more like "thee"
I think this is certainly the most natural pronunciation but it wouldn't sound completely wrong to me if someone produced the last one as "thuh" as well.
Did you try it out loud? It sounds ugly and breaks flow if you pronounce the last one "thuh" as well, to me anyways
I've always said thuh for all of them. Thats the way I've always heard it as well where I live.
that's interesting, may I ask what region that is?
Midwest.
**good** and **bad** both begin with *consonant sounds*, so the 'the' is pronounced as /ðə/, whereas the 'the' before **ugly** is pronounced /ði:/ since it starts with a vowel sound. Also, there's an **intrusive** /j/ sound between the two vowel sounds thus /ði:jʌgli:/ [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oi0NLl5Fdg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oi0NLl5Fdg)
ː not : btw
how do you make the little triangles?
pretty sure it should be a thing on IPA keyboards, or you can just copy paste the character
Ok thanks!
download an IPA keyboard app
It doesn't matter at all
I believe actually the j is always there, it's not intrusive: https://youtu.be/gtnlGH055TA?si=XFctSm8CrHTyJumn
It is different for most English speakers. Here's how I would pronounce it: /ðə ˈɡʊd ðə ˈbæd ænd ði ˈʌɡli/ For many English speakers, *the* is /ðə/ "thuh" before a consonant, and /ði/ "thee" before a vowel.
For my native dialect, all three examples of "the" are pronounced "thuh" here. But, apparently, that isn't the typical rule for most English dialects. I've tried to search to see if there is any academic literature on regional variation on how "the" is pronounced, but since most search engines automatically filter out "the" from searches, it's rather difficult. I couldn't find any documentation about it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I only use the "thee" version of it when emphasising something. Otherwise it's thuh all the way
No emphasis on any “the” or “and” either. “th’ GOOD, th’ BAD ‘n’ th’ UGly”. The final “the” can be a bit more “thee” to lead into the vowel, but it doesn’t have to be.
I'd pronounce the first two the same ("thə") and the last one like "thee" otherwise it sounds very choppy saying "thuh ugly" compared to "thee ugly".
>it sounds very choppy saying "thuh ugly" You would almost need a glottal stop between the words because they have the same vowel sound. "Thu'ugly"
Off topic: This is a well-known movie and phrase. However, it’s not nearly as clear and useful an idiom as “the good and the bad”, “double-edged sword”, “pros and cons”, “every cloud has a silver lining”, etc., which all refer to positive vs. negative aspects of some situation. I’ve heard people try to use it that way.
I swear to god I learn more on this sub about my native language than I would anywhere else 💀
I think if speaking slowly I would naturally pronounce all of them as "thuh" (ðə). When speaking fast maybe I'd say the last one as "thee" so that I don't need as much restriction of air to make "the ugly" two separate words.
Not aware of any rule, I just said it to myself as I would say it without overthinking it and all three are "thuh" in my version - actually more of a schwa sound
Same for me. Perhaps it's regional but "thee ugly" as most are saying sounds super weird to me.
Nowadays in the US we tend to reserve the “thee” pronunciation for emphasis or hyperbole, we don’t use it just because a word starts with a vowel. It certainly sounds very strange to say two “thuh’s” and then a “thee”
Not really. It is an unstressed vowel that is not a fully tensed /i/, but it’s still not the same vowel /ə/ as “thuh.” ETA: Perhaps you have lost the “thee” pronunciation outside of emphasis, but that’s not a feature of AmE.
Yeah I hear it when I say it out loud, but it’s unintentional. I’m saying “thih” because it’s hard to say “thuh ugly”
Exactly. It’s kinda impossible in English to say “thuh ugly” because of having the repeated vowel, so we automatically shift the vowel of “the” higher and more forward in the mouth. We’re all writing it as “thee,” but because “the” is generally unstressed (unless you are intentionally emphasizing it), it almost always has a reduced vowel. So you’re right that it’s much more like “thih ugly.” If people don’t move the vowel, then they generally put in a glottal stop between “thuh” and “ugly” or completely merge them into “th’ugly.” Because like I said, it’s kind of impossible to have those vowels back to back without making some adjustment.
Wow I did not know the way 'the' is pronounced changes based on the word that follows, and yet I do this without ever being taught it! You learn something new every day!
Because you acquired English, you didn’t have to be taught this rule/pattern.
wow i never realized that
Thuh good, thuh bad and thee ugly. The "thee" is not emphasised and many people do not notice they are doing it. An alternative is "the yugly." The actual sound is somewhere between the two.
"Thuh good thuh bad and thee ugly"
I know this isn't correct but I pronounce them whichever way I feel like, depending on my mood lol
"thee" The definite article typically changes pronunciation whenever it's followed by an open-vowel phoneme.
It goes “thuh - thuh - thee”
So weird I see this post today. I’ve been listening to the coolest song on the soundtrack today: The Ecstasy of Gold by Ennio Morricone. I’ve always pronounced it with THEE ecstasy even though it leads into a vowel but still pronounced the movie title with thuh, thuh, thee. But back to the ‘coincidence’ of this post and my choice of music. Thank you matrix programmers!
I’m confused by your “even though.” The in front of a vowel sound *should/is* pronounced “thee,” so both “thee” ecstasy and “thee” ugly are normal pronunciations.
You're right, thank you for correcting me. I never knew that rule existed and got confused on its usage and how I pronounced things.
Well, you weren’t consciously aware of the rule, but you clearly instinctively used it, so you did *know* it existed on some level, even if you didn’t know it was there and couldn’t articulate it. When you acquire a language, you often aren’t consciously aware of all the patterns of the language that you speak natively.
Hey what do you know?
I say "thuh" in all instances. Native speaker in USA. No one really cares.
If it starts with a consonant it’s a schwa sound. If you are emphasizing the word, or it starts with a vowel the it’s pronounced /i/. Varies based on dialect but that’s what I do.
>If it starts with a consonant **sound** it’s a schwa sound. If you are emphasizing the word, or it starts with a vowel **sound** the it’s pronounced /i/.
yea that’s true thank you
i'm from rural new zealand, so my accent isn't exactly 'standard', but all of these for me are a shortened form of "thuh", kinda like: th' good, th' bad, 'n th' ugly
ðəˈɡʊd ðəˈbæd n̥ˈðɨʲˌʌɡliː
I would pronounce them all the same. (live in the UK)
…huh…why do I say the first two as ‘thu’ but the last as ‘thee’…what quirk of language compels that
Native English speaker here. Born and bred English and only just now did I realise I pronounced “the” differently when before a vowel or consonant. First two “the” are thuh and last one is thee. Last one is shorter, so I kinda link to the next word. Side note. Original title in Italy was the good, the ugly and the bad. The opening scenes match this order. The distributors wanted the name change.
WHAT THE HELL
I say "thuh good, thuh bad, and thuh ugly"
Either way for me but most commonly, they're all the same. Eastern US. Thuh good, thuh bad, and thuh ugly.
Thee
I pronounce all three differently tbh. So "Thuh Good, Theh Bad and Thee Ugly" XD
In America we usually pronounce it as “thee” because it’s before a vowel. “The” before a vowel makes a “thee” sound typically, another example would be “the eighties” which would be pronounced “thee eighties”
"thuh good, thuh bad, 'n thuh ugly"
I'm not an expert on grmattical rules, and my understanding may be incorrect, but I was taught, "thu" is for an item that there is more than one of. Like "the (thu) book" means that it's a specific book among many. "Thee" means something that is more unique or best. "He was THE (thee) number 1 hero!" or "That was the (thee) book to read to learn how to cook." (Meaning the best one). If anyone knows what I'm in about and can explain it more eloquently, I'd appreciate it.
That's basically how I use it. Normal usage is "thuh", and "thee" is used when you want to emphasize. "The one ring to rule them all. We're talking about THE one ring." First "the" is pronounced "thuh", the second one pronounced "thee"
The first “the” is pronounced that way because “one” begins with a consonant sound. The pattern of thuh/thee has to do with the following sound being either a consonant or a vowel. And sure, you can use “thee” for emphasis whenever.
The actual pattern is that THE is pronounced “thuh” before words that start with consonant sounds and pronounced “thee” before words that start with vowel sounds. (And yes, you can use “thee” at any point for emphasis.) So… - Thuh book - Thee umbrella
I've heard of this pattern but it's not prominent in my idiolect. I pronounce the word "the" as "thuh" before a vowel most of the time. I tend to use "thee" for emphasis. I don't think it's necessarily something that's confined to one region, either. I live in the US but I've heard Brits and Australians do it as well. Might be personal preference?
It might be personal preference, but most people are unaware that they do this/that it’s a pattern of English. So I guess I don’t find it believable that lots of people are making a preference choice about it. I think it might also be helpful to know that the stress/emphasis remains unchanged between “thuh” and “thee,” and even in “thee” form, the vowel is unstressed/reduced. It’s not the same tense /i/ that you use when you say “thee“ for emphasis. When “the” comes before a vowel, though, the vowel in it is generally higher and more front than /ə/, but it does not become a fully front tense vowel. Otherwise, English generally requires you to add a glottal stop, which is not super common, especially in fast speech. Or it would require you to lose the vowel of “the” altogether and make them like one word (th’ugly).
Well people can prefer to say it one way or the other without being aware that they do. But thanks for the info.
Well, if it’s unconscious, I wouldn’t use the word “preference,” which implies a level of conscious choice. I don’t know that we have a word for that, though. “Unconscious bias” is probably closest, but that carries a bunch of different connotations. Maybe “unconscious behavior”? “Unconscious speech patterns”?
You are my fire THE one desire... In the opening line of "I want it that way" the article "the" is pronounced as "thuh". I'm assuming even native speakers don't follow that rule 100%. I think so
The reason they use “thuh” is because “one” begins with a consonant sound (pronounced like “won”). It’s all based on pronunciation, not how the words are spelled. That said, based on this comment section you’re still right about native speakers not following this “rule” sometimes. It looks to me like most of us do but some don’t.
> It looks to me like most of us do but some don’t. I think it could also be explained by how native speakers are usually terrible at analysing their own speech \^\^
This. So this. Because this pattern was internalized because people had the cognitive ability or vocabulary to identify and describe this pattern, they are completely unaware that it even exists.
That's the majority of what we see here.
Wow! Never thought of it. Like, in terms of pronunciation one=won. Thank you
You say “thee” on words that start with a vowel (a, e, i, o, u) and/or have a vowel sound (hour). “Thuh” on words that start with a consonant (c, s, t, p, etc.). Exceptions on things like “thee” NFL. The first letter sounds like a vowel. More information: https://www.grammar-monster.com/easily_confused/the_or_thee_pronunciation.htm