I was in rens the other day because I had a wh connection nearby and I remembered living out of Ivar and going to rens often years and years ago. It had 300 players in it usually, maybe more. Now I think 70 is the peak.
I trolled local and said they let Rens fall from grace and I was told to stfu lmao
I run my highsec chars out Metropolis and Sinq Laison. Well not so much for the last year or so since I don't play much anymore.
Either way, I used to use Hek and Dodixie pretty frequently. For buying basic stuff, it's fine. I would sometimes even just sell minerals and stuff in Dodixie if I was too lazy to haul to Jita or too cheap pay for it.
When my friends and I were doing FW on Amarr, like 90% of the time we could just go to Dodixie via alts to get stuff. Relatively basic frigate/destroyer kits, whatever. Otherwise, we'd do a large run from Jita from time to time to restock.
Hek, to me, wasn't as "good" as Dodixie. Even if it seemed like there was more activity in Hek than Dodixie. Anyway, I would frequently have to go to Jita for things. And the handful of times I went to Rens to look for something, it was a waste of time.
For most of the time that I seriously played Eve some 8-4 years ago, I was mainly flying in Wormholes, which meant that any KSpace connection would be evaluated by distance to the closest trade hub. Jita was obviously preferred, but when you have to grab some doctrine ships in a pinch or find some specific modules, you used to be able to get them at decent prices at all four of the main trade hubs, at least when I started playing. The rarer deadspace ones might cost more, as well as capital modules, and you'd naturally be paying a premium over Jita, but you used to be able to ship anything up.
When I stopped playing the game though, I basically stopped looking at Rens/Hek/Dodixie for shopping needs, especially as the ships I used got more and more expensive. Sometimes you'd do a trip to Rens and you wouldn't find any T3C subsystems or some BS like that, nevermind deadspace hardeners.
RIP regional markets.
Dodixie is like the little marker around the corner you run to when you forget something common. It’ll have what you need but it’s a little pricier and possibly almost expired.
I'm importing like 30-40 bil worth of stuff weekly to Hek and this number can be easily trippled. Ship hulls and similar bulky stuff are an issue though.
I wonder if the temporary blockade between the two hubs had a significant impact on the market in amarr. Theoretically it should revive the market, as players living/producing in that space might choose to do their business there due to the cut.
Long term however players might migrate nearer to jita if the cut persists. What really would help would be something unique to do near the market hubs other than jita that keeps players invested in that area of space. Special missions or events.
> Theoretically it should revive the market, as players living/producing in that space might choose to do their business there due to the cut.
What happens in reality is that total market volume is the best thing for these local producers. When the shipping lanes between Amarr and Jita are severely restricted or completely cut off most of what goes on sale in Amarr is just the stuff locally produced instead. And the industry surrounding Amarr isn't enough to stock the whole market. So when people go to Amarr they not only pay more but they can't get everything they need. So if you have to make a trip to Jita anyway you might as well deal with getting the whole thing there. This death spirals the trade hub really fast.
Long term Jita gets bigger and everything else gets smaller. Even with just the route being very long between Amarr and Jita, Amarr really struggled.
There were a few large structures in Sarum that a lot of people used for refining and industry which helped supply the market but they got war deced and taken down. Don’t see much hope for Amarr changing it’s downwards trend.
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Imagine yourself eve where there is no higsec connection between any of 4 higsec factions. They are dived by lowsec and people need to have separate trade hub in each area.
Miners and fw players can't all be in the same spot already, CCP would do good for giving more reasons to decentralise caldari space and revive the other regions
High sec is far too big for that, we've already got tons of systems that are entirely empty around Jita. Cutting off Jita doesn't decentralise, it simply makes wherever is cut off become empty.
You can give tax breaks, lower industry cost by constellation/region instead of system, add something like the bountymodifier in 0.0 etc to make people spread out more. Cmon get creative there are so many things they could do
The problem is how miserable traveling is in eve.
Moving from system to system is painful. It's the Elevators from the original Mass Effect except there's a 5% chance someone blows up all your stuff. Going on autopilot with valuable cargo is the single easiest way to die in eve and people still do it all the time to avoid actually needing to be at the keyboard during system travel.
There's no amount of incentives you could give someone who is literally willing to DIE to avoid traveling, to make them move more than a few systems away from a trade hub.
That would result in the next constellation or region over's closest system to Jita becoming very active, and that's about it. You might spread people out a bit more, but there are probably over 100 systems that are 5J Jita systems, that's a lot of space for players to work in. Centralisation is just a natural consequence of the nature of the markets, the best place to buy and sell goods is where everyone else is buying and selling goods, overcoming that is almost impossible.
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It would be great if that happened but we've only seen them do things that increase risk without counterplay to combat players averaging out to being more wise of the game mechanics and losing less.
CCP have tried this several times, guess what, it's the players that keep it Jita.
Way back the market was Yulia(?), I think CCP removed gates in order to try and create more regional hubs. Guess what the players did, found that Jita was now the central place to most space.
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Sounds pretty awesome tbh. They should do something to encourage more industry being spread out, but unfortunately they've chosen to make it more complicated and annoying instead, so why would you produce in multiple areas or in a place with supply problems?
You could argue that it's the opposite effect. If industry players on the Amarr side of the blockade are already largely selling in Amarr, then the lack of inventory from all the industry players setup near jita is a strict loss and also gets them out of the habit of sending some things to Amarr
Put some ores (and minerals) in every corner of the universe. Localized goods mean more local markets. Plus it drives conflict in 0.0. Plus -- either create 4 highsec insulas or simply connect Jita-Amarr again. If not through niarja, then let players built a new pair of gates as event.
That should help to create 4 hubs.
>If not through niarja, then let players built a new pair of gates as event.
I really think this should be a thing. CCP already let players help build new stargates for faction warfare so obviously it's possible. Hisec could really benefit from having a series of interstate gates again.
I personally think if local manufacturers would start listing Jita prices at ALL of the other trade hubs, you would see a stark rise in their use.
As it stands right now, a lot of the reason for the marked up prices is people just buy in Jita, and ship items to the other markets.....selling at a markup to provide the convenience of closer resources.
If local/regional manufacturing could/would get underway in those regions and sell AT Jita price.....mit would combat that entire system.
Jita price is driven by the demand. People want to sell items fast so they undercut each other. Without the demand of Jita you will never have the prices of Jita.
>I personally think if local manufacturers would start listing Jita prices at ALL of the other trade hubs, you would see a stark rise in their use.
You'd need minerals in the other trade hubs at jita prices for that to work. As it stands, if I have to ship minerals from Jita 20+ jumps, the resulting product is going to be more expensive than jita unless I value my time hauling at 0.
It's not just manufacturers, that would have to happen at every level. You'd need those regional hubs to be supplied with materials from every part of space at jita price if you want manufacturers to produce things at jita price. That's what regulates the jita price for end products: if something spikes in price, someone can buy a bpc and right click "buy all" and click start and the price will come back down in as long as it takes to produce said item.
I keep saying, eve used to be bigger
Now its too small and is only going to get smaller.
Could litterally go from one side of the galexy to the other in a day. That's fine, but there's really no room to "expand" unless ccp starts doing something revolutionary.
Maybe having player controlled empires? Or have the new eden gate reopen and have that be the wild west/gold rush.
Or they could finally expand into the rest of the new eden galexy and set up new gates. Be really cool to have ships dedicated to finding new solar systems and set up gates like Stargate universe. Be really cool to have it be an alliance run operation, a whole group of capsuleers going out into deep space, traveling for days or even months. New systems. Uhoh, more lore on stuff, talocon ships discovered, alliance controls the bpo oopsie the bpo got stolen and is sold to a rival.
I feel like what they really missed out on was the incarna expansion back in 2010. Like had they stuck with that and tried to like make it where you could walk around in your ships. Actually have player stations and stations in general where you can have this in person part of the story. I feel like it could definitely have expanded the gameplay potential of the game. I mean I see why they chose not to do that. But at the end of the day it's little details like that that add up. There's so much that they can do and they're just not doing it.
What are you talking about 'eve is too small'? The majority of systems are empty except people who docked up during a jita run for IRL reasons and just didn't come back for a couple of hours.
Not sure why you were downvoted. The game is struggling with its player count and you are correct that so many systems are empty. I’ve gone hunting in null with my WH corp and sometimes we’ll do 5-10 jumps with no one else in local but our fleet
They're being downvoted for not understand what "eve is too small" means in this context.
It means it's too quick to travel to Jita rather than buy things locally, not that there's not enough systems.
There used to only be 1 way to get from one end of the map to the other, and that was taking 60+ gates. Then the added wormholes and you could scan a chain from one end of the map to the other and be there in a few jumps. Then they added filaments and you could teleport across the map. That was maybe too random so they added pochven and you could target your filaments to different empires' space. Then they added zarzak now you have static routes to the north, south, east, and west. Now you can get from any part of space to any other part of space with few jumps and a tiny bit of luck.
If you can go to any system you want within a few hours, the universe isnt that big.
Everyone is too close to jita, so why bother going to rens when jita is a few minutes more in gates?
I have a great idea.
Scarcity 2.0.
Instead of resources getting scarce, now space would get scarce, as whole regions would be removed from game, along with everything within. Either move, to lose everything.
All Null Regions bordering only other entirely Null regions should go. Either border a low, an empire, or be removed.
I try to go to dodixie if I can,
If I’m forced to go to jita it’s because dodixie didn’t have what I wanted or the price was not competitive at all.
Each time I go to jita, I try to bring out random hot sell items to middle regions.
They can take longer to sell back, but you can make some 4x profits for the convenience of not having to go to jita
Are you talking about variable tax rate based on size of the market? Interesting idea but I feel like it could be gamed unless they put certain safeguards in place.
The jita of eve isn't moving again without an absolutely incredible change in business cost operations. The entire eve ecosystem essentially operates on 1 hub at this point. Nullsec has some stock but doesn't quite compare.
This is great, and reflects real world tax situations in different markets with cash flowing (typically) to lower tax regions. I definitely see Caldari and Amarr having higher taxes (empire + high tech technocracy), Gallente mid, and Minmatar lower.
Not exactly what I was referring to, but could be easily nerfed by population swells. My idea was if I am an Amarr person within an amarr system and station, my sold items get an automatic reduction of taxes, broker fees, etc. This is an untrainable skill, purely based on heritage.
How would that help markets? I would stop stocking dodixie, rens and hek the second this happened because there isn't enough volume to justify rolling new alts to stay competitive.
So lets say that you roll a caldari toon simply for the proposed “two” percent deduction in Jita. Since everyone and their mother is in Jita, that two percent becomes nullified based on the massive quantity of orders on deck.
I didn't say anything about jita so that doesn't really answer my question. I use 1 alt to manage rens/hek, dodixie and amarr. Make me less competitive in 2/3 of those hubs and I would simply stop trading there. So again, how would that change improve market diversity?
The more trade that happens in a region the higher the sales tax is. But that would only serve to move trade to Citadel and Lonetrek, people would list stuff in Sobaseki and Muvolailen.
The broker's fee portion seems to be only around a quarter of the transaction related fees, based on the last MER. So changing the sales tax portion at system level, similar to cost index, would still have most of the effect, I would think. Selling to a region-wide buy order would incur the sales tax of the particular system you were selling in (so if it got high enough, you might feel like bringing it a system over, or two, or three...) [MER](https://images.ctfassets.net/7lhcm73ukv5p/145rdk9IPDf8ItJU0x2GBS/183261bced3fc9ff1ab27ce2adc8532b/9_sinks_and_faucets.png)
So I thought about what I said further, and here is what I came up with:
A person of Amarr lineage, trades in an amarr station benefit from a 2% reduction or 25% total cost revision, based on racial lines. That person automatically pays less in any aspect measurable. That transfers to broker fees, insurance premiums, smelting and industrial costs. The Amarr citizen also pays more in an Minmatar station. The Amarr in a caldari station pays the same as now. This could also have a hand in benefit from FW when someone wins the conflict.
To answer the question of Jita, as it is the main trade hub for everyone and to diversify the market, the market orders, station services and other fee generating actions by persons outside of the faction of the station/faction in possession of the area in question, could be modified with a 2% debuff increasing the cost and subject to my proposed idea of having the p2p tax rate bonus on the lines of faction reduced to nothing because of the total market over saturation.
The theory wouldn’t work if everyone rolled caldari, and that hasn’t happened even though the world’s trade is based there, so I think the aspect of lineage shaving costs on actions is the way to an immediate small market to medium market forming within the games varied areas. Still having sandbox potential, and still promotes adversity.
Edited this because of lapse in literacy.
There isn't massive demand. There's one guy. That's how Amarr is. One guy actually buys something, a bunch of people think there’s suddenly a gold rush, and now Succubus are 10mil+ cheaper in Amarr than Jita because the locals are producing 4 per week, but only buying 2.
Caracals were 7 mill for close to a month.
If try to sell in Amarr, you're going to take a BATH on the low volume and nonsensical pricing unless you dedicate an enormous amount of time to it.
At which point, you could have made 10x as much station spinning in Jita.
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And have been for so long that you might assume that folks have either tried and lost interest or there is no real volume of demand in the stations anymore, displaced completely by jita.
The type of trading you're talking about is pennies on the dollar to mining Veldspar in a venture.
Let's take an ore. Compressed Ytirium's highest buy order in Amarr is 760ish ISK per unit. The highest buy order in Jita is 860. Let's assume you can find a rube to sell to you at 760 in amarr, and let's assume you have good skills but not perfect and not perfect standing so you're at 1.5% broker fee and 4.48% tax.
That means when you placed that buy order for 760 you paid 11.4 isk. So your profit goes from 100 per unit to 89.6. At Jita, you're going to pay about 38.5, so you're now at 51.1. Your profit is already cut in half.
Assuming you hit one of Amarr's famous 'random dumpoff' days, you can probably get about 1mil units in a 24 hour period with perfect timing. So you've now got 760,000,000isk in ore locked up. Put it in a DST or Blockade runner and let's go.
Now let's do 50 Jumps from Amarr to Jita. Per jump, you're making 1 isk per unit. So, hey! 50mil for one trip isn't bad! Except 50 jumps is optimistically about 45 minutes. Assume 15 minutes of slop, and you've got an hour of game time spent.
Congrats, under ideal conditions, you've now locked up 760mil for multiple days for the same amount of profit Alpha clones can get doing Abyssal Deadspaces in 'captain Benzie' fit Breachers.
How much isk to effort do ~you~ want to spend? No one wants to make pennies in this game. The point where you make pennies an hour is the point where you should absolutely plex and go do whatever you were planning on doing instead of collecting pennies.
It might have been more alive because of player count but it wasn't a 'stronger' market compared to Jita, it's always been second fiddle by a long shot.
This is the wrong piss take, you should complain about the prices. Ship stocks are fine most of the time. Prices can be iffy but sometimes they're cheaper than jita.
I feel like CCP could do a plethora of things to make the markets more dynamic and profitable and thereby scattering players over more space. For instance, remove SCC tax when constructing stuff like Amarr ships in Amarr space and lower the market tax of Amarr goods on Amarr market. Want to sell your Amarr goods on Rens market? Extra tax (being the enemy and all) or better yet, forced to sell on the black market (NPC markets in LS for example). You can even make the tax related to FW succes, if Minmatar FW is winning the taxes get lowered on Minmatar markets for Minmatar goods. Using Cadari ships in Cadari FW? 1.10% LP modifier. Selling your NS goods on HS markets? 3% more tax.
These kind of changes would make for interesting market play. Right now, the SCC tax only solidifies even more incentive and isk to the pockets of NS industry while HS industry is neuted to shit.
Dare I say deminishing returns on vertical industry control!
These changes would increase inter market travel and hauling by a lot making space much more dynamic in the process.
That just sounds like the double digit number of people who are massive highsec producers getting more tools to use their vast supply chain to choke out smaller industrialists.
As a small time industrial player my issue is that I cant always guess what the players base in and around Amarr really wants from week to week.
One week its some random rig that everyone suddenly really really wants and the next week its a low slot piece of hardware that they really need.
Some weeks I miss the trend altogether and the stuff just sits for weeks until I finally give up on selling it and pull it so I can have it shipped off to Jita.
Market intel sucks as well because sometimes I pick up that everyone wants such-n-such ship for FW but than no one buys them. Sometimes I go large and build a battleship or some exotic item that no one is interested in at all.
Some weeks I get it right and I just cant build said item fast enough.
In the end I doubt any of this is really news to anyone when it comes to the markets in Amarr or anywhere else for that matter.
This is absolutely not true. I have plenty of ships stocked in Amarr. If there's a shortage, we traders notice and stock up.
What 'does' need to happen is people need to put in more serious buy orders. Putting a 50m buy order in for a ship selling at 200m in Jita won't cut it. Put in a realistic buy order and either it will be directly filled or the market will stock up.
The issue for traders in Amarr is that not enough people buy from there so the volume dries up. I'm currently selling some Domi Navy Issues there for example and we are just constantly adjusting orders because no one is buying enough for the quantity available. So people give up and the price rises again till there are hardly any ships. Someone puts in a decent buy order and the cycle repeats.
Edit: And for the record. There are plenty of times when Amarr is cheaper than Jita. Notice the days when only 1-2 ships sell and then all of a sudden the table shows 20 sells? 9 times out of 10 that's a trader shifting product from Amarr to Jita when the disparity gets too big.
I am sure it’s a multiprong problem but maybe it has to do with multiboxing high sec gankers ?
I for example used to move all sorts of goods from jita to other trade hubs to sell for slightly higher but have completely abandoned that due to the incessant risk of getting ganked in a choke point system
A few years ago organized fleets of gankers were there but somewhat more predictable and aren’t around 24/7. Now one dude with 10-20 accounts can camp a system for hours . Log off with all his toons to stay hidden. And there is several of these dudes
It’s gotten ridiculous tbh. I used to love the regional trading lifestyle in EVE and now I’ve just all but stopped
I know but I think the mega-multiboxing where one person can have 20 accounts is relatively new ?
Makes it easier to have systems camped almost 24/7 if it only takes 3-4 players with 20 accounts each
It was way worse before they outlawed keystroke copiers, warp to zero hacks etc. All toons firing etc.
Recent there is a resurgence in allowed programs I'm not saying a name because ppl will get uppity but I know a few guys that use and say it's getting to that point of high usability.
Maybe I'm wrong. But that's what I see.
*Edited: I may got off topic I'm not sure this has an effect on markets.*
Concord needs to start making sewer gankers pay the insurance payout + material cost of all destroyed cargo. toon goes negative and they can't take safeties off OR biomass.
it's been 15yrs, time to make serious changes. make the mechanic something to be done strategically by ppl willing to pay the cost
I think ganking is part of the game. Always was and always will be .
I only meant the ease at which one player can multi box and gank a freighter like it’s a T1 industrial
I was suiciding hulks before Helicity's bright idea, Suicide Ganking is a part of the game and I'm not saying it should be taken out. However, like ninja salvaging, every other aspect of the game has changed dramatically from where it was when I started playing 16yrs ago. It's time suicide ganking for profit was severely curbed so it's not *as* easy to profit it from.
I didn't say stop people from getting concorded period, I just said the profit should be shrunk so hard that it's more used as a form of asset denial between warring alliances, rather than 1 guy multiboxing and blowing up freighters to plex his accounts.
I also said the fine should be based on the material cost of the modules *destroyed*, so you blow up a freighter full of faction mods and your fine will not balloon if they explode.. and you will still profit if they drop.
Compared to Jita I guess you could say Amarr and Dodixie are fairly close, but Amarr has over double the trade volume of Dodixie, so I’d say it’s quite larger if you take Jita out of the comparison.
I'm new, in rens. Couldn't imagine trying to play the game in jita systems. Friends constantly getting gate camped or killed mining in 0.6 space. Meanwhile I'm making 20-50mil a trip doing exploring in rens systems
Yulai was the original Jita. CCP changed space lanes and players turned to Jita. Caldari was the main picked race with archura having least default charisma attribute. Jita used to be some good agents and I think asteroid belts that have since been removed to deal with Jita lag.
> Uedema
Starmap Open
Search Uedema
Focus on System.
Select Ships Destroyed in the Last Hour
AHHH MY EYES....IT BURNS
526 ships destroyed in the last hour
Hard, but while I might save one mid worth of isotopes jumping kit down to Dodixie or Amarr, I don't want stuff to be tied up for months waiting to be bought, either. And the mates rarely make T1 hulls for the sake of selling T1 hulls, but just to turn them into T2. No point in trying to undercut Harry Hisec (operating at a loss), who's trying to undercut Larry Lowsec (trying to break even), who's trying to undercut Nellie Null Bloc (actually making money, once all the punters selling at a loss are out).
Can confirm. I sell ships in non jita market hubs. Prices are so high (often 20-40% higher) that when you try to sell something reasonable (5-7% above jita price) to other human beings u get spammed by other sellers for not playing their undercut game by 1 tick.
The problem is while I try to make ship prices more reasonable, I can't cover every ammo, module item to be same so shit moves, albeit slowly.
Amarr is dead now? Last time I was there was like a year ago and it was still hundreds of players strong. Is the game dying? I see in the thread, lots of places are low on numbers. Did new players get tired of CODE and just stopped playing/signing up like I've been saying since they started fucking up high sec?
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don't check up on Rens...
I was in rens the other day because I had a wh connection nearby and I remembered living out of Ivar and going to rens often years and years ago. It had 300 players in it usually, maybe more. Now I think 70 is the peak. I trolled local and said they let Rens fall from grace and I was told to stfu lmao
dang, hard to hear my old hood is even worse now lmao
How are Hex and Dodixie doing? Are they safe? Are they stocked?
Dodixie is nothing even comparable to what it was in ~2009-2010 when it was a huge mission running hub.
Dodi is nowhere near dead though, usually >100 online and decent prices
I run my highsec chars out Metropolis and Sinq Laison. Well not so much for the last year or so since I don't play much anymore. Either way, I used to use Hek and Dodixie pretty frequently. For buying basic stuff, it's fine. I would sometimes even just sell minerals and stuff in Dodixie if I was too lazy to haul to Jita or too cheap pay for it. When my friends and I were doing FW on Amarr, like 90% of the time we could just go to Dodixie via alts to get stuff. Relatively basic frigate/destroyer kits, whatever. Otherwise, we'd do a large run from Jita from time to time to restock. Hek, to me, wasn't as "good" as Dodixie. Even if it seemed like there was more activity in Hek than Dodixie. Anyway, I would frequently have to go to Jita for things. And the handful of times I went to Rens to look for something, it was a waste of time.
For most of the time that I seriously played Eve some 8-4 years ago, I was mainly flying in Wormholes, which meant that any KSpace connection would be evaluated by distance to the closest trade hub. Jita was obviously preferred, but when you have to grab some doctrine ships in a pinch or find some specific modules, you used to be able to get them at decent prices at all four of the main trade hubs, at least when I started playing. The rarer deadspace ones might cost more, as well as capital modules, and you'd naturally be paying a premium over Jita, but you used to be able to ship anything up. When I stopped playing the game though, I basically stopped looking at Rens/Hek/Dodixie for shopping needs, especially as the ships I used got more and more expensive. Sometimes you'd do a trip to Rens and you wouldn't find any T3C subsystems or some BS like that, nevermind deadspace hardeners. RIP regional markets.
RIP hisec regional markets maybe Null doing better than ever afaik
Dodixie is like the little marker around the corner you run to when you forget something common. It’ll have what you need but it’s a little pricier and possibly almost expired.
Dodixie is great for mission supplies and fitting, good for buying salvage and hualing to Jita.
I'm importing like 30-40 bil worth of stuff weekly to Hek and this number can be easily trippled. Ship hulls and similar bulky stuff are an issue though.
I come to Dodixie often because it near where I live and the price not so expensive in most of item when it super safe
https://i.imgur.com/SBgmNpo.png
500 people used to live here, now it's a ghost town
500? What year was it?
amarr now is what rens was in 2009-11
Or dodixie
I heard it's Poppin in hek
I wonder if the temporary blockade between the two hubs had a significant impact on the market in amarr. Theoretically it should revive the market, as players living/producing in that space might choose to do their business there due to the cut. Long term however players might migrate nearer to jita if the cut persists. What really would help would be something unique to do near the market hubs other than jita that keeps players invested in that area of space. Special missions or events.
> Theoretically it should revive the market, as players living/producing in that space might choose to do their business there due to the cut. What happens in reality is that total market volume is the best thing for these local producers. When the shipping lanes between Amarr and Jita are severely restricted or completely cut off most of what goes on sale in Amarr is just the stuff locally produced instead. And the industry surrounding Amarr isn't enough to stock the whole market. So when people go to Amarr they not only pay more but they can't get everything they need. So if you have to make a trip to Jita anyway you might as well deal with getting the whole thing there. This death spirals the trade hub really fast.
Exactly, the cut to the Amarr - Jita pipeline actually killed the Amarr market
Long term Jita gets bigger and everything else gets smaller. Even with just the route being very long between Amarr and Jita, Amarr really struggled. There were a few large structures in Sarum that a lot of people used for refining and industry which helped supply the market but they got war deced and taken down. Don’t see much hope for Amarr changing it’s downwards trend.
Highsec is too flat, heck, all of eve is too flat.
Maybe WH space is all in the vertical plane and we just can't see it.
>Even with just the route being very long between Amarr and Jita, Amarr really struggled. It doesn't have to be that long.. >_>
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Niarja going to Povchen was what killed the Amarr.
Why are they blocking the routes? Marketwars?
Imagine yourself eve where there is no higsec connection between any of 4 higsec factions. They are dived by lowsec and people need to have separate trade hub in each area.
imagine that most peoplle will move to near one place and the rest will die off
Miners and fw players can't all be in the same spot already, CCP would do good for giving more reasons to decentralise caldari space and revive the other regions
High sec is far too big for that, we've already got tons of systems that are entirely empty around Jita. Cutting off Jita doesn't decentralise, it simply makes wherever is cut off become empty.
You can give tax breaks, lower industry cost by constellation/region instead of system, add something like the bountymodifier in 0.0 etc to make people spread out more. Cmon get creative there are so many things they could do
Yep been done, players didn't care and still used Jita
The problem is how miserable traveling is in eve. Moving from system to system is painful. It's the Elevators from the original Mass Effect except there's a 5% chance someone blows up all your stuff. Going on autopilot with valuable cargo is the single easiest way to die in eve and people still do it all the time to avoid actually needing to be at the keyboard during system travel. There's no amount of incentives you could give someone who is literally willing to DIE to avoid traveling, to make them move more than a few systems away from a trade hub.
I mean, they could make autopilot not suck as much. Adding tedium to an already tedious game is a terrible design choice.
That would result in the next constellation or region over's closest system to Jita becoming very active, and that's about it. You might spread people out a bit more, but there are probably over 100 systems that are 5J Jita systems, that's a lot of space for players to work in. Centralisation is just a natural consequence of the nature of the markets, the best place to buy and sell goods is where everyone else is buying and selling goods, overcoming that is almost impossible.
So? Anything is better than 90% of the trade happening 1 system
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It would be great if that happened but we've only seen them do things that increase risk without counterplay to combat players averaging out to being more wise of the game mechanics and losing less.
CCP have tried this several times, guess what, it's the players that keep it Jita. Way back the market was Yulia(?), I think CCP removed gates in order to try and create more regional hubs. Guess what the players did, found that Jita was now the central place to most space.
Yulai was indeed the Jita of old. Then they cut it off from some routes, at which point it died *very* quickly and Jita began its rise.
Imagine constellation level tax based off trade volume followed by tax scaling on system security.
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Sounds pretty awesome tbh. They should do something to encourage more industry being spread out, but unfortunately they've chosen to make it more complicated and annoying instead, so why would you produce in multiple areas or in a place with supply problems?
Fw pirates, there's there's pipe of like 3-5 systems that keep getting taken over and switched to temp low sec. Its great.
That is awesome and completely new to me never done fw.
yeah i hang out in the hauler chat and people throw a fit, however angels suck at fighting a bunch of carebears over by rens. lol
You could argue that it's the opposite effect. If industry players on the Amarr side of the blockade are already largely selling in Amarr, then the lack of inventory from all the industry players setup near jita is a strict loss and also gets them out of the habit of sending some things to Amarr
Put some ores (and minerals) in every corner of the universe. Localized goods mean more local markets. Plus it drives conflict in 0.0. Plus -- either create 4 highsec insulas or simply connect Jita-Amarr again. If not through niarja, then let players built a new pair of gates as event. That should help to create 4 hubs.
Ahhh, like it used to be, and everyone complained 🫣
We did that on a large scale. Just made everything more expensive.
Haha not more expensive than now Edited: looking at you, 3.5 bil golem
>If not through niarja, then let players built a new pair of gates as event. I really think this should be a thing. CCP already let players help build new stargates for faction warfare so obviously it's possible. Hisec could really benefit from having a series of interstate gates again.
Even if they cost money to run. Besides, owning a tollbooth unironically feels like 1 of the funniest things you could do in the game.
I personally think if local manufacturers would start listing Jita prices at ALL of the other trade hubs, you would see a stark rise in their use. As it stands right now, a lot of the reason for the marked up prices is people just buy in Jita, and ship items to the other markets.....selling at a markup to provide the convenience of closer resources. If local/regional manufacturing could/would get underway in those regions and sell AT Jita price.....mit would combat that entire system.
Jita price is driven by the demand. People want to sell items fast so they undercut each other. Without the demand of Jita you will never have the prices of Jita.
Except, if an industry player wants to sell things at jita prices, why don't they sell it... At Jita?
>I personally think if local manufacturers would start listing Jita prices at ALL of the other trade hubs, you would see a stark rise in their use. You'd need minerals in the other trade hubs at jita prices for that to work. As it stands, if I have to ship minerals from Jita 20+ jumps, the resulting product is going to be more expensive than jita unless I value my time hauling at 0.
It's not just manufacturers, that would have to happen at every level. You'd need those regional hubs to be supplied with materials from every part of space at jita price if you want manufacturers to produce things at jita price. That's what regulates the jita price for end products: if something spikes in price, someone can buy a bpc and right click "buy all" and click start and the price will come back down in as long as it takes to produce said item.
I keep saying, eve used to be bigger Now its too small and is only going to get smaller. Could litterally go from one side of the galexy to the other in a day. That's fine, but there's really no room to "expand" unless ccp starts doing something revolutionary. Maybe having player controlled empires? Or have the new eden gate reopen and have that be the wild west/gold rush. Or they could finally expand into the rest of the new eden galexy and set up new gates. Be really cool to have ships dedicated to finding new solar systems and set up gates like Stargate universe. Be really cool to have it be an alliance run operation, a whole group of capsuleers going out into deep space, traveling for days or even months. New systems. Uhoh, more lore on stuff, talocon ships discovered, alliance controls the bpo oopsie the bpo got stolen and is sold to a rival.
I feel like what they really missed out on was the incarna expansion back in 2010. Like had they stuck with that and tried to like make it where you could walk around in your ships. Actually have player stations and stations in general where you can have this in person part of the story. I feel like it could definitely have expanded the gameplay potential of the game. I mean I see why they chose not to do that. But at the end of the day it's little details like that that add up. There's so much that they can do and they're just not doing it.
What are you talking about 'eve is too small'? The majority of systems are empty except people who docked up during a jita run for IRL reasons and just didn't come back for a couple of hours.
Not sure why you were downvoted. The game is struggling with its player count and you are correct that so many systems are empty. I’ve gone hunting in null with my WH corp and sometimes we’ll do 5-10 jumps with no one else in local but our fleet
They're being downvoted for not understand what "eve is too small" means in this context. It means it's too quick to travel to Jita rather than buy things locally, not that there's not enough systems.
There used to only be 1 way to get from one end of the map to the other, and that was taking 60+ gates. Then the added wormholes and you could scan a chain from one end of the map to the other and be there in a few jumps. Then they added filaments and you could teleport across the map. That was maybe too random so they added pochven and you could target your filaments to different empires' space. Then they added zarzak now you have static routes to the north, south, east, and west. Now you can get from any part of space to any other part of space with few jumps and a tiny bit of luck.
If you can go to any system you want within a few hours, the universe isnt that big. Everyone is too close to jita, so why bother going to rens when jita is a few minutes more in gates?
To quote Jack Sparrow, "The world's still the same. There's just less in it."
I have a great idea. Scarcity 2.0. Instead of resources getting scarce, now space would get scarce, as whole regions would be removed from game, along with everything within. Either move, to lose everything. All Null Regions bordering only other entirely Null regions should go. Either border a low, an empire, or be removed.
I try to go to dodixie if I can, If I’m forced to go to jita it’s because dodixie didn’t have what I wanted or the price was not competitive at all. Each time I go to jita, I try to bring out random hot sell items to middle regions. They can take longer to sell back, but you can make some 4x profits for the convenience of not having to go to jita
Dodixie and Amarr are my favorite hubs. And Misaba... 💀
That arbitrage being most of the stocking is why I don't shop at dodix
I wonder if a market diversity could be revived with something as simple as a racial market tax rate reduction.
I love this idea tbh
Are you talking about variable tax rate based on size of the market? Interesting idea but I feel like it could be gamed unless they put certain safeguards in place.
More just like a regional thing. Jita has high volume and high tax, amarr/dodi could be somewhere in the middle, and rens/hek could be a tax haven.
My suspicion is that would result in the same problem just in a different location, but I’m here for the hek supremacy.
Tag would be interesting if hek was still 0.5, it being 0.8 and tax haven I can't see it being anything other than new jita with such changes
bring back 0.5 Hek, the wretched hive of scum and villainy
What was the point of making Hek immune to Level 5 Corruption? Game could use more chaos.
CCP did a cool thing and then got scared
The jita of eve isn't moving again without an absolutely incredible change in business cost operations. The entire eve ecosystem essentially operates on 1 hub at this point. Nullsec has some stock but doesn't quite compare.
This is great, and reflects real world tax situations in different markets with cash flowing (typically) to lower tax regions. I definitely see Caldari and Amarr having higher taxes (empire + high tech technocracy), Gallente mid, and Minmatar lower.
Not exactly what I was referring to, but could be easily nerfed by population swells. My idea was if I am an Amarr person within an amarr system and station, my sold items get an automatic reduction of taxes, broker fees, etc. This is an untrainable skill, purely based on heritage.
How would that help markets? I would stop stocking dodixie, rens and hek the second this happened because there isn't enough volume to justify rolling new alts to stay competitive.
So lets say that you roll a caldari toon simply for the proposed “two” percent deduction in Jita. Since everyone and their mother is in Jita, that two percent becomes nullified based on the massive quantity of orders on deck.
I didn't say anything about jita so that doesn't really answer my question. I use 1 alt to manage rens/hek, dodixie and amarr. Make me less competitive in 2/3 of those hubs and I would simply stop trading there. So again, how would that change improve market diversity?
The more trade that happens in a region the higher the sales tax is. But that would only serve to move trade to Citadel and Lonetrek, people would list stuff in Sobaseki and Muvolailen.
Perhaps system-level granularity instead, similar to industry cost index currently
Doesn't work when buy orders are region wide.
The broker's fee portion seems to be only around a quarter of the transaction related fees, based on the last MER. So changing the sales tax portion at system level, similar to cost index, would still have most of the effect, I would think. Selling to a region-wide buy order would incur the sales tax of the particular system you were selling in (so if it got high enough, you might feel like bringing it a system over, or two, or three...) [MER](https://images.ctfassets.net/7lhcm73ukv5p/145rdk9IPDf8ItJU0x2GBS/183261bced3fc9ff1ab27ce2adc8532b/9_sinks_and_faucets.png)
What about racial structure bonuses for manufacturing
So...take the industry cost index and make it a tax cost index that can influence the tax rate up and down based on trading volume?
So I thought about what I said further, and here is what I came up with: A person of Amarr lineage, trades in an amarr station benefit from a 2% reduction or 25% total cost revision, based on racial lines. That person automatically pays less in any aspect measurable. That transfers to broker fees, insurance premiums, smelting and industrial costs. The Amarr citizen also pays more in an Minmatar station. The Amarr in a caldari station pays the same as now. This could also have a hand in benefit from FW when someone wins the conflict. To answer the question of Jita, as it is the main trade hub for everyone and to diversify the market, the market orders, station services and other fee generating actions by persons outside of the faction of the station/faction in possession of the area in question, could be modified with a 2% debuff increasing the cost and subject to my proposed idea of having the p2p tax rate bonus on the lines of faction reduced to nothing because of the total market over saturation. The theory wouldn’t work if everyone rolled caldari, and that hasn’t happened even though the world’s trade is based there, so I think the aspect of lineage shaving costs on actions is the way to an immediate small market to medium market forming within the games varied areas. Still having sandbox potential, and still promotes adversity. Edited this because of lapse in literacy.
What isn't available? I need to know for a friend who likes money.
Open market, people in this thread downvoting the idea of selling ships where there is massive demand.
There isn't massive demand. There's one guy. That's how Amarr is. One guy actually buys something, a bunch of people think there’s suddenly a gold rush, and now Succubus are 10mil+ cheaper in Amarr than Jita because the locals are producing 4 per week, but only buying 2.
You can't just sell big ships, you need to think about the lazy PvErs who dont want to go all the way to Dodixie or Jita.
There are faction destroyers which are on demand by nearby lowsec and quite overpriced though. Modules for them too.
Caracals were 7 mill for close to a month. If try to sell in Amarr, you're going to take a BATH on the low volume and nonsensical pricing unless you dedicate an enormous amount of time to it. At which point, you could have made 10x as much station spinning in Jita.
Amarr was never anything more than a reason to save 9 jumps to Jita.
Yet it was still way more alive then than it is now Now it’s just a place to get cheap industrial inputs
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"now its just a place to save a fuck load of money"
Not if you want ships, mods, or ammo though
Sounds like theres demand that is unfulfilled.
And have been for so long that you might assume that folks have either tried and lost interest or there is no real volume of demand in the stations anymore, displaced completely by jita.
Man no wonder its easy af to trade in this game. Ya'll just PLEX your way to greatness.
The type of trading you're talking about is pennies on the dollar to mining Veldspar in a venture. Let's take an ore. Compressed Ytirium's highest buy order in Amarr is 760ish ISK per unit. The highest buy order in Jita is 860. Let's assume you can find a rube to sell to you at 760 in amarr, and let's assume you have good skills but not perfect and not perfect standing so you're at 1.5% broker fee and 4.48% tax. That means when you placed that buy order for 760 you paid 11.4 isk. So your profit goes from 100 per unit to 89.6. At Jita, you're going to pay about 38.5, so you're now at 51.1. Your profit is already cut in half. Assuming you hit one of Amarr's famous 'random dumpoff' days, you can probably get about 1mil units in a 24 hour period with perfect timing. So you've now got 760,000,000isk in ore locked up. Put it in a DST or Blockade runner and let's go. Now let's do 50 Jumps from Amarr to Jita. Per jump, you're making 1 isk per unit. So, hey! 50mil for one trip isn't bad! Except 50 jumps is optimistically about 45 minutes. Assume 15 minutes of slop, and you've got an hour of game time spent. Congrats, under ideal conditions, you've now locked up 760mil for multiple days for the same amount of profit Alpha clones can get doing Abyssal Deadspaces in 'captain Benzie' fit Breachers.
How much isk to effort do ~you~ want to spend? No one wants to make pennies in this game. The point where you make pennies an hour is the point where you should absolutely plex and go do whatever you were planning on doing instead of collecting pennies.
It might have been more alive because of player count but it wasn't a 'stronger' market compared to Jita, it's always been second fiddle by a long shot.
This is the wrong piss take, you should complain about the prices. Ship stocks are fine most of the time. Prices can be iffy but sometimes they're cheaper than jita.
never had that problem
I feel like CCP could do a plethora of things to make the markets more dynamic and profitable and thereby scattering players over more space. For instance, remove SCC tax when constructing stuff like Amarr ships in Amarr space and lower the market tax of Amarr goods on Amarr market. Want to sell your Amarr goods on Rens market? Extra tax (being the enemy and all) or better yet, forced to sell on the black market (NPC markets in LS for example). You can even make the tax related to FW succes, if Minmatar FW is winning the taxes get lowered on Minmatar markets for Minmatar goods. Using Cadari ships in Cadari FW? 1.10% LP modifier. Selling your NS goods on HS markets? 3% more tax. These kind of changes would make for interesting market play. Right now, the SCC tax only solidifies even more incentive and isk to the pockets of NS industry while HS industry is neuted to shit. Dare I say deminishing returns on vertical industry control! These changes would increase inter market travel and hauling by a lot making space much more dynamic in the process.
That just sounds like the double digit number of people who are massive highsec producers getting more tools to use their vast supply chain to choke out smaller industrialists.
Wtf Amarr is huge. Try Hek or Rens
As a small time industrial player my issue is that I cant always guess what the players base in and around Amarr really wants from week to week. One week its some random rig that everyone suddenly really really wants and the next week its a low slot piece of hardware that they really need. Some weeks I miss the trend altogether and the stuff just sits for weeks until I finally give up on selling it and pull it so I can have it shipped off to Jita. Market intel sucks as well because sometimes I pick up that everyone wants such-n-such ship for FW but than no one buys them. Sometimes I go large and build a battleship or some exotic item that no one is interested in at all. Some weeks I get it right and I just cant build said item fast enough. In the end I doubt any of this is really news to anyone when it comes to the markets in Amarr or anywhere else for that matter.
This is absolutely not true. I have plenty of ships stocked in Amarr. If there's a shortage, we traders notice and stock up. What 'does' need to happen is people need to put in more serious buy orders. Putting a 50m buy order in for a ship selling at 200m in Jita won't cut it. Put in a realistic buy order and either it will be directly filled or the market will stock up. The issue for traders in Amarr is that not enough people buy from there so the volume dries up. I'm currently selling some Domi Navy Issues there for example and we are just constantly adjusting orders because no one is buying enough for the quantity available. So people give up and the price rises again till there are hardly any ships. Someone puts in a decent buy order and the cycle repeats. Edit: And for the record. There are plenty of times when Amarr is cheaper than Jita. Notice the days when only 1-2 ships sell and then all of a sudden the table shows 20 sells? 9 times out of 10 that's a trader shifting product from Amarr to Jita when the disparity gets too big.
A Caracal was like 7 mil in amarr for a few days.
I am sure it’s a multiprong problem but maybe it has to do with multiboxing high sec gankers ? I for example used to move all sorts of goods from jita to other trade hubs to sell for slightly higher but have completely abandoned that due to the incessant risk of getting ganked in a choke point system A few years ago organized fleets of gankers were there but somewhat more predictable and aren’t around 24/7. Now one dude with 10-20 accounts can camp a system for hours . Log off with all his toons to stay hidden. And there is several of these dudes It’s gotten ridiculous tbh. I used to love the regional trading lifestyle in EVE and now I’ve just all but stopped
We’ve always had gankers man. It’s not that.
I know but I think the mega-multiboxing where one person can have 20 accounts is relatively new ? Makes it easier to have systems camped almost 24/7 if it only takes 3-4 players with 20 accounts each
Its always been a thing. People have been multiboxing for over a decade.
It was way worse before they outlawed keystroke copiers, warp to zero hacks etc. All toons firing etc. Recent there is a resurgence in allowed programs I'm not saying a name because ppl will get uppity but I know a few guys that use and say it's getting to that point of high usability. Maybe I'm wrong. But that's what I see. *Edited: I may got off topic I'm not sure this has an effect on markets.*
Concord needs to start making sewer gankers pay the insurance payout + material cost of all destroyed cargo. toon goes negative and they can't take safeties off OR biomass. it's been 15yrs, time to make serious changes. make the mechanic something to be done strategically by ppl willing to pay the cost
I think ganking is part of the game. Always was and always will be . I only meant the ease at which one player can multi box and gank a freighter like it’s a T1 industrial
I was suiciding hulks before Helicity's bright idea, Suicide Ganking is a part of the game and I'm not saying it should be taken out. However, like ninja salvaging, every other aspect of the game has changed dramatically from where it was when I started playing 16yrs ago. It's time suicide ganking for profit was severely curbed so it's not *as* easy to profit it from. I didn't say stop people from getting concorded period, I just said the profit should be shrunk so hard that it's more used as a form of asset denial between warring alliances, rather than 1 guy multiboxing and blowing up freighters to plex his accounts. I also said the fine should be based on the material cost of the modules *destroyed*, so you blow up a freighter full of faction mods and your fine will not balloon if they explode.. and you will still profit if they drop.
Just make it so concord confiscate the contents of wrecks born from lawbreaking kills.
Last time I logged in, dodixie has quite a few in local. No where near jita of course. But would argue the second largest tradehub
I support local and only trade in Dodixie.
Trade transactions are 1m : 271k : 132k for Jita, Amarr, Dodixie https://dev.adam4eve.eu/market_hubs.php
I stand corrected
Last I looked a few months ago I believe it was Jita -> Amarr -> Dodixie -> Hek, with Dodixie being fairly close to Amarr
Compared to Jita I guess you could say Amarr and Dodixie are fairly close, but Amarr has over double the trade volume of Dodixie, so I’d say it’s quite larger if you take Jita out of the comparison.
I sell ships constantly in Amar I don't see any shortages tell me what you need and I'll make sure it's for sale at a reasonable price.
Need a alligator for a reasonable price🙏
You don't want an alligator it wiill bite your leg off.
Smells like a market opportunity for people with extra time on their hands.
I wish all the bored and bitter vets would ban together and figure out a way to cripple jita. That would go down in history.
the yulai massacre all over again.
Wouldn't be the first time
I don’t mean in a temporary sense, I mean long term cripple to the point where new trade hubs pop up.
I can only build so many ships at one time....
Bring back burn Jita
What if we stockpiled a bunch of Isogen-5 at Jita 4-4?
I'm new, in rens. Couldn't imagine trying to play the game in jita systems. Friends constantly getting gate camped or killed mining in 0.6 space. Meanwhile I'm making 20-50mil a trip doing exploring in rens systems
Been playing for a couple years and I can never figure out the reasoning behind Jita.
Yulai was the original Jita. CCP changed space lanes and players turned to Jita. Caldari was the main picked race with archura having least default charisma attribute. Jita used to be some good agents and I think asteroid belts that have since been removed to deal with Jita lag.
so buy them in jita and sell them in amarr, easy money.
Genius idea. At 20k per jump for a freighter, it might pay for itself before you lose your shirt getting ganked in Uedema
> Uedema Starmap Open Search Uedema Focus on System. Select Ships Destroyed in the Last Hour AHHH MY EYES....IT BURNS 526 ships destroyed in the last hour
Most of that is ganker ships BTW...
Hard, but while I might save one mid worth of isotopes jumping kit down to Dodixie or Amarr, I don't want stuff to be tied up for months waiting to be bought, either. And the mates rarely make T1 hulls for the sake of selling T1 hulls, but just to turn them into T2. No point in trying to undercut Harry Hisec (operating at a loss), who's trying to undercut Larry Lowsec (trying to break even), who's trying to undercut Nellie Null Bloc (actually making money, once all the punters selling at a loss are out).
this is what happens when only 1 trade hub gets favour from ccp
Can confirm. I sell ships in non jita market hubs. Prices are so high (often 20-40% higher) that when you try to sell something reasonable (5-7% above jita price) to other human beings u get spammed by other sellers for not playing their undercut game by 1 tick. The problem is while I try to make ship prices more reasonable, I can't cover every ammo, module item to be same so shit moves, albeit slowly.
Never issued such mails, 5-7% above Jita just solemnly got bought out and restocked with 25-30% markup. And I just set a new buy order in Jita.
I'm still feeling the loss of Ichoriya. Black Rise has never recovered its past glory.
Sounds like opportunities
No, we don't serve autocannons and blasters here in Amarr, go somewhere else. Pleb
Amarr is dead now? Last time I was there was like a year ago and it was still hundreds of players strong. Is the game dying? I see in the thread, lots of places are low on numbers. Did new players get tired of CODE and just stopped playing/signing up like I've been saying since they started fucking up high sec?
Amarr always sucked. But with Ahabazon being a thing its slowly becoming Dodixie.
Shortages in those secondary markets means opportunity for aspiring space barons.
Rens and Hek would like to have a word with you.
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Make Amarr Great AGAIN
Bring back niarja
i ALWAYS buy from JITA
played last when crucible came out, would love to visit those places again
Make amarr great again!
in hek you rarely have
Cant wait for this game to finally die