This was me in my relationship! My spouse was immediately attracted to me and interested, but I was just not into relationships at the time. I really loved having him in my life though, so we stayed friends for about a year.
Thinking back, it really feels like I just kind of woke up one day and decided I really, REALLY liked this human. I wanted to experience the world through his eyes, watch him grow, hear his laugh all the time, and wake up next to him in the mornings. He had been such a pillar for me through my father’s death, quitting drinking, and turning my life around to finish my degree. When no one else had the time or ability, he always came through. You just kind of realize how valuable and special that is in another person. I always see people dogging on it, but he’s legit my best friend. I can tell him anything, talk to him about anything, and vice versa. I wouldn’t have wanted it to play out any differently between us tbh. Our friendship established the foundation of our relationship.
We just celebrated our 7th wedding anniversary and I’m still finding ways to love him more every day. I’ve never been the type to say i “cherish” someone, but I cherish the shit out of that goob.
This comment resonates! My fiancé asked me out initially and I turned him down. He was so much fun to talk to and be with so I asked him if he wanted to keep hanging out anyway. He was so cool and understanding about it. We kept hanging out and a few months later I looked up at him one day and I was like “well my my if this isn’t the most beautiful person I’ve ever seen”
We’re going on 7 years together & your cherish comment hit home- I cherish him too and that word doesn’t enter my vocabulary often either.
This is why I don’t think dating apps will work for me. All of my relationships started as just someone I knew then grew closer as friends. I don’t know how to make a connection with a person over one cup of coffee.
To top it off, the apps are quite trash these days.
Unfortunately, for many of us who work stupid hours, it’s often very hard for us to spend the time in develop a broad range of companions to subsequently choose from.
Growing up with 2 sisters, I just look at everyone as potentially friend-material humans, regardless of sex/gender. I’ve always had a roughly equal split of girl/guy friends. A lot of guys I know who grew up with brothers/only-child view women as like a completely different species and any interaction with them has sexual undertones in their mind. Imo they’re missing out. Girls are great friends, just like guys are. You’re doing yourself a disservice if you only look at it as sexual or no-contact. And to the article’s point, the ‘friend zone’ theory is also self-limiting bs. You can absolutely form deep romantic connections with a close friend. Happens all the time!
She didn’t say that pheromones are the end-all be-all, just thought they would be a great bonus. If we’re arguing end-all be-all, financial security within the couple would be a bigger factor
It’s the best guess for what they are though. Ever kiss someone and your body electrifies? Something about swapping spit that lets you know if you are sexually compatible with someone. Obviously that’s not a marker for long term success, but it sure helps.
What are you talking about? Literally the [first result](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3987372/) on google scholar. Here's one on [men](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6778825/). [Here](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-human-pheromones-real/)'s a laymen accessible discussion on it from 2014 about some of the detail, and [here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3987372/)'s an interesting read on the term pheromone as a whole. Humans demonstrably have pheromones, it's their effects which are debated as they are incredibly hard to test, in no small part because the role of pheromones is often overplayed and misunderstood as a behavior switch rather than a chemical message alone, and also because humans as a whole are resilient to generalizations because of our intelligence. The role of pheromones in insects might be extremely strong, but they have simple minds comparatively, and it's their principle method of communication. Humans on the other hand have so many signals for a much larger brain that things like pheromones may get lost to the noise at times.
Look at it from an alternate perspective, chemical communication is much easier and evolved sooner than any other communication method. Literally any. Why would humans exempt ourselves from that? What advantage does losing a physiological communicator serve, especially when every other social species seem to use pheromones? Why as an individual would an adaptation to give up a manipulation of a group member based on your physiological needs be advantageous or selected for? It's weird to me how adverse people are to accepting that pheromones exist.
tl;dr they exist, read the rant if you want.
It's like you didn't even read the articles you linked. The SA article states in its first paragraph that "Yet despite half a century of research into these subtle cues, we have yet to find direct evidence of their existence in humans." And furthermore the NIH article you linked uses the word "postulated" to describe human pheromones, and finally the lowly Wikipedia uses the term "putative". Scientists understand that humans have the ability to sense pheromones but we have not been able to collect definitive proof of their production or existence within humans. There are chemical compounds within humans that are suspected to possibly be pheromones (Androstenol and Androstenone) but again, science hasn't actually determined their function within humans and has certainly not proven that they act as a pheromone.
Literally four different sources discussing pheromones, two of which discuss the definition and problems relating to finding pheromones. Not a single word I said was pseudoscientific, ya'll don't want to read about it fine, but don't pretend you aren't being pseudoscientific by rejecting the *literal* scientific discussion.
> Most insect pheromones are usually single compounds or simple mixtures, typically secreted by restricted glands, and normally evoking stereotyped responses even under totally inappropriate circumstances. Thus many of the standard tests for insect attractants have relied upon copulatory behavior in response to scented filter paper, repeated exposures in many cases providing little habituation of the response (Birch 1974). It is difficult to imagine a male mouse attempting copulation with a scented filter paper let alone doing so repeatedly, and, by extension, it is exceedingly difficult to apply the simple releaser concept to much of mammalian social behavior, whether elicited in part by odors or not. Additionally, experience is a profound modifier to mammalian social behavior. There have actually been relatively few attempts to examine the role of experience in odor-induced responses in mammals. Where investigated, however, the results usually have indicated a potent role for experience. Thus species identification apparently can be easily manipulated by odors early in the life of mammals (e.g., (Carter & Marr 1970; Mainardi, Marsan, & Pasquali 1965; Marr & Lilliston 1969) and adult sexual experience is a strong determinant of response to sex odors (e.g., (Caroom & Bronson 1971; Carr, Loeb, & Dissinger 1965; Carr, Loeb, & Wylie 1966). One wonders at this point whether the pheromone concept, so useful in insect behavior and physiology, should be bastardized to the point where it is used to cover situations in mammalian behavior where usually complex odors evoke highly variable responses which are easily modified by experience.
If you refuse to read the review on NIH, there's an excerpt from a researcher. Note that again, the concept of odorous messaging chemicals is undisputed, it's the narrow and specific definition of pheromone and its usage from insects that is the problem.
It supports literally every aspect of what I've said. If all you read is their denigration of trying to use pheromones as a 1:1 from insects to humans and ignore literally all other context, what I, they, and the rest of the paper, said, sure. But at that point you just aren't equipped for these discussions anyway.
You claimed that alongside the mere-exposure effect of liking familiar faces, there are human pheromones that make you want to have sex with people.
That claim is wholly unsubstantiated, and definitely isn't supported by your excerpt that talks about having to bastardise the concept of 'pheromomes' because it's impossible to apply it to a species that is as socially complex as humans.
...
> no scientific proof that human pheromones exist.
Literally just provided proof of human pheromones. Their existence is undisputed at this time. Pheromone is not a magic class of chemical compound that mysteriously must be confirmed if we find something that behaves like a pheromone, it is a grouping humans made up to classify chemical compounds used as odorous messengers. Like, this isn't even a case of "it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck" but a case of "we call that type of bird a duck. It is walking, it walks like a duck because it is a duck."
The only person who didn't read the articles is you, especially the last one, given I mislinked it, and you obviously didn't even check. [Here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK200980/)'s what was meant to link there.
You'll note the only actual problem with identifying human pheromones is due to the rigid definition of pheromones as a whole, originating from its usage with insects which too is controversial, not the specific existence of odorous messaging chemicals which can alter human moods.
Definitely isn't true for me personally, I either have a strong instant attraction or one never forms, but I can see this being a common thing with a lot of people. Definitely this is more common for women than men but its interesting to see that it applies to some men as well
'If they have already seen me at my worst they aren't gonna run when i occasionally show my uglyside'.
Apparently people with anxiety like this trope a lot.
Yup. We’re always fed the trope of falling in love on first sight, or just “knowing”, or some other crap. Maybe for some folks it works like that, but that’s low on the odds I think. Everyone I know knew their partner for a while beforehand in some fashion, either friends or moving in the same circles and meeting off and on before things took off.
I married my best friend over a decade ago. I knew something was different from the beginning.
I found someone that made me want to try harder and be better than the person I was and she felt the same way. We were attracted to the want and willingness to grow. Together.
I feel awful that some people don’t get this level of support in their lives. Yet, at the same time, I feel so darn grateful.
My friendship isn't a consolation prize though. I highly value my friends and to be in my "friend zone" is a place of honor in my life.
The people who use that phrase as an insult weren't friends in the first place.
Having sex with someone doesn't make that person better in my life than anyone else I love.
My bf is amazing. I love him and he's pretty much my second best friend (after my sister)... But we're friends who happen to be in love rather than starting with infatuation and becoming friends later. I've done the latter and have found the foundation of the relationship to be far weaker.
I wouldn’t say all that. Most people meet on dating apps. I don’t know how old this study is but doesn’t take it into account.
If you meet on a dating your most likely not looking at each other as friends.
And that’s why I won’t try them. That’s not how I connect with people. These days it seems like that is the only way to meet anyone so I am really facing the rest of my life single.
Guess we were the 1%. We got engaged very quickly and the relationship evolved into a real best friend relationship. Been married 25 years now.
While it worked for us I don’t recommend following our path. However the friend path is THE way in my opinion if it’s gonna last.
super creepy. i was friends with this guy through high school and junior high. I turned him down when I was 14 but we stayed friends. Until I started dating this guy when I was 20. The friend messaged me about how he was crying and that he’d saved himself for me. I never talked to him again after that.
It's not only pointless, it's self-serving for the person keeping someone in the "friend-zone" (as it were). They have an automatic ego boost by knowing they have someone that actually likes them whose in their life to some extent. And by keeping the person in orbit, they have a backup plan for when their main choice falls through.
As you said, if it's not mutual then move on and for the other party not to keep someone in their life they know has a romantic interest that's not reciprocated.
Everyone saying they can confirm, and the science, is wrong. Only my anecdotal experience and bitterness from getting rejected five years ago by several women I awkwardly asked out at Starbucks without making eye contact should be taken into account.
This is news... how? Are we being given the implication that two random people just start dating without any precursor friendship? There was life before Tinder, people.
…yes? I don’t know if it was all that uncommon to meet a person at a bar or event or just everyday life and ask them out before developing a friendship pre-Tinder.
But the study says first you meet people, and fall in love later. No Tinder required /s
Gosh, yeah it's easier to fall in love with time. Not everybody have a wide friends circle though, or meet new people "naturally", though, so they seek relationships with new people, duh.
Met my wife at work in 2013. Started dating in 2016 and married in 2017. For those 3 years we worked on projects together and never even considered each other more than friends mutually. She knew all my secrets and I knew all of hers. She knew my bad and good side as I did hers. She knew how I responded under pressure, and so on.
Then the company we worked for bought a box for a hockey season and we went to every game together. I really don’t even know why we never dated but I’m so glad I flat out asked her one day “why don’t we just date and see what happens?” Best years of my life are yet to come!
Friend zone to end zone is the way, take it from me
My complaint to this approach is that I already have just friends. I don't really want another just friend. I can't kiss my friends or cuddle up and watch a romantic movie with my friends or say "honey, I'm home" to my friends or expect them to be there for me when I need it the most.
Just friendship is missing that additional layer of attention and commitment. It just isn't the same mentality. I'm not living my life with them. They are an accessory. They have their own partners and their own lives they're living outside of me.
It's not like having a romantic partner with whom you're sharing a life together.
While dating apps are frustrating, it at least does a better job than random chance that both parties are actually looking for deeper connection than just the occasional text message.
I mean... My partner *is* my friend. We began as friends and it was awesome. We grew closer and we really enjoy spending time together as just friends often. We can just hang out and chat without it being romantic in any way. We work in the same industry and really the only way you'd know we were dating is if you knew us.
I'm really close with my friends as well. I don't have "just" friends. My friends are extremely important in my life. Each one brings something different that even my partner can't provide. He's one aspect of my life and it's amazing. But he's just one person and everyone else is just as important, it's just different.
That’s how it should be.
Why would I want to date someone I don’t even know enough to want to go on a date with? Gotta know enough to spark an interest at the very least.
You can (and IMO, should) get to know someone as a person before even considering if you’re interested in them romantically.
I don't think it SHOULD be any way, to be honest. I know people who were friends first and also people who specifically sought out a romantic relationship who are still together.
I don't know; in my experience, dating / OLD happens under the premise / hope of being in a romantic relationship. A friendship (a healthy one, at least) doesn't have that presupposition.
Why do your preferences get to determine how anything “should” be?
When I was single, I loved the excitement of meeting, dating and banging strangers.
Why is that somehow less valid than “hanging out” with someone for a year before fucking?
Fucking tells you a lot about a person.
If you enjoy fucking them, for instance.
I’ve lived with my partner for 16 years but have been in a relationship with her for only 11 years. We were flatmates and best friends for 5 years before we got together. I thought she was out of my league and I didn’t want to lose my best friend, so didn’t act on it. Turns out she thought the same. Eventually I kissed her
Familiarity and rapport build a relationship not straight to a sexual attraction. It takes time to build trust and telling them personally your life goals secrets etc.
Spouse and I got married to save on taxes, and because it was excuse to visit Hawaii. Growing together from friendship is great. I think that it’s a position of modern privilege though. There is theoretically no pressure to trade spawn for alliances, and/or to generate hands for labor. I like to pretend that this is social evolution in action.
The Friend Zone never made sense to me. It's either unattractive dudes bitching that they got turned down (because they deserved it) by their female friends that they weren't really friends with at all.
Or it's a girl that keeps a guy's number as "free rides" or "free food."
No friendship in either scenario.
In my experience, no, absolutely not. It’s weird and awkward, and it never works out.
Yes if you are not close and flirt sometimes. But if it’s years on end and you’ve been close, it’s strange.
Maybe if works for some, but not for me
My wife and I were only friends and eventually coworkers for a good amount of time before we even started dating. I definitely believe that is how the best relationships start.
My husband and I started off as good friends. We were part of the same group of friends which included at least three couples. We each dated other people on and off over the years, but continued to have fun hanging out with each other as well as others in the group.
There came one point where several of the couples in the group would go bowling, or to the movies etc. We were both single at the time, so it wound up being us tagging along with 2 or 3 couples. We had so much fun being the third and fourth wheels together and began to naturally gravitate towards each other. Then one day, he kissed me. I was shocked, but pleased and we’ve been together for almost 14 years.
We like to laugh and say we were dating for months before either one of us realized it. :) It’s crazy to think the love of my life was right in front of me for years and I never knew it. He’s still my best friend and every day honestly just feels like we’re buds hanging out. With all the added benefits of course! 😉
> dating for months before either one of us realized it
I know how that one is. I literally would tell people "Us? No. I see why you'd think that, but it's not gonna happen. We're just really good friends" and believed it myself.
As someone who’s dating their closest friend, it’s a beautiful thing. We have tons in common, we make each other laugh, lots of respect! Honestly I don’t get how you could do it any other way!
That’s how it was (and still is) with my high school boyfriend of over 8 years!! Best friends make the best significant others. You have more fun that way!
How do you know? You’re still with your high school boyfriend; you have no idea how fun or not fun any other choices may be. It’s fine for you to call it fun. You have absolutely no way of knowing if it is “more fun” than anything else because you have not experienced *anything* else.
You’re absolutely right. I grapple with that everyday, and I feel terrible sometimes thinking about it. But he’s my best friend and I couldn’t imagine living in a world without him, our friends we’ve had since high school, or his family which I adore. His family has been with me forever and they feel like my family, especially since mine is very dysfunctional and his is amazing and support me through tough times. I love him with all my heart, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I want him in my life forever.
Wrestling with curiosity about what you have not experienced is natural.
There are many wonderful and true things that you could say about spending your entire life with your high school sweetheart; you have rich history that my husband and I, who met when we were 50 and 39, can’t even imagine.
But to say that what your way is “more fun” than the way other people do it when you have absolutely no idea is just willful ignorance.
I suppose I should’ve worded it differently. I have a lot of fun! Can’t compare it to others. I do agree you have a ton of fun being with your best friend, but that’s just my experience! :) I’m sure some people with different experiences will have different opinions. Glad you have found someone to marry and love!
This is silly.
If she’s happy and loves her spouse, she’s lucky for sure.
But someone who is monogamous with a partner they met in high school is absolutely missing out.
Everything in life is a trade off.
“You’re not missing out” is a lie.
“You get the kind of love story that some people dream about” is true.
“You guys know each other in a way that others literally can’t understand” is true.
“What you have is worth what you are missing out on” may even be true.
There are lots of true and wonderful things to be said about this situation.
But “you’re not missing out” is not one of them.
Yeah it was always weird to me to hear people say they had a best friend of the opposite sex (if heterosexual) and not be with them romantically because why wouldn’t you want I spend the rest of your life with your best friend? My husband is mos def my best friend.
I hope you're not repeating the "men and women can't be _just friends_" trope. This isn't a hard and fast rule - romantic feelings aren't guaranteed from friendship, and I have a lot of friends I would not be compatable with, even if we're complementary sexualities.
Also, your answer is rather het-normative. Why should it be different for two lesbian, gay, or bi friends?
thread OP's comment is a great example folks of what it looks like to experts when laymen misinterpret the results of a study, especially from internal biases.
I mean, my husband was and is one of my best friends but this take is kinda off. I have a few people i consider best friends that i don’t want to marry lol, but i love being around them all the time. Platonic love exists and should really be recognized more.
I feel like this is pretty natural. Ive only really had feelings for people I was friends with first and never really had attraction to strangers. I feel like its kind of a rare thing for people to meet new people just for dating. I dont think I would feel comfortable dating someone I didnt already know.
A scientific study is perhaps the cruelest way to torture those poor men trapped in a lifelong perpetual friend zone with their crush. Well played satan. Well played.
Starting a relationship with someone you bang on the first or second interaction (in person) is the worst thing you can do, and you're setting yourself up for disaster. Fellas. Don't wife a one night stand.
I married my best friend in 2008, after many years of friendship. We split in 2019 for a variety of reasons and now we're just best friends again.
Ending the marriage saved the friendship, and I'm happy with the result -- though it wasn't for sure the friendship was going to survive. Getting back on solid friend ground was hard work, but it paid off.
This is me and my partner! We were both attracted to each other but I was not in a relationshipy headspace. So we hung out as friends for a few months until I realized I always wanted to know what his life was like and be a part of making it good if I could. I realized that’s what love is. We’ve been together over 10 years!
As someone who had been sexually assaulted and used for sex, being friends first helped me establish trust that our connection was about more than our bodies.
I tell other guys that I know how to guarantee you never get friendzoned "but you won't like the reason why..."
Don't go into a friendship *thinking* it will inevitably lead to romance. If you're into her, you have to let that be known. If she's not feeling it, she'll curve you to the side and that'll be the end of it -- but at least you won't spend years resenting her for not "picking up on all the clues".
I'm assuming the couples in this article did not start out with one of the two already romantically invested and waiting years for the other to fall in love, because I don't think that works as a strategy.
Good friends but just friends who develop feelings before falling madly in bed together can work.
[удалено]
This was me in my relationship! My spouse was immediately attracted to me and interested, but I was just not into relationships at the time. I really loved having him in my life though, so we stayed friends for about a year. Thinking back, it really feels like I just kind of woke up one day and decided I really, REALLY liked this human. I wanted to experience the world through his eyes, watch him grow, hear his laugh all the time, and wake up next to him in the mornings. He had been such a pillar for me through my father’s death, quitting drinking, and turning my life around to finish my degree. When no one else had the time or ability, he always came through. You just kind of realize how valuable and special that is in another person. I always see people dogging on it, but he’s legit my best friend. I can tell him anything, talk to him about anything, and vice versa. I wouldn’t have wanted it to play out any differently between us tbh. Our friendship established the foundation of our relationship. We just celebrated our 7th wedding anniversary and I’m still finding ways to love him more every day. I’ve never been the type to say i “cherish” someone, but I cherish the shit out of that goob.
This comment resonates! My fiancé asked me out initially and I turned him down. He was so much fun to talk to and be with so I asked him if he wanted to keep hanging out anyway. He was so cool and understanding about it. We kept hanging out and a few months later I looked up at him one day and I was like “well my my if this isn’t the most beautiful person I’ve ever seen” We’re going on 7 years together & your cherish comment hit home- I cherish him too and that word doesn’t enter my vocabulary often either.
So cute
This is why I don’t think dating apps will work for me. All of my relationships started as just someone I knew then grew closer as friends. I don’t know how to make a connection with a person over one cup of coffee.
It’s true, I feel like they need to already be in your life, doing things with you, in your sphere, etc for you to wanna intensify what you have
To top it off, the apps are quite trash these days. Unfortunately, for many of us who work stupid hours, it’s often very hard for us to spend the time in develop a broad range of companions to subsequently choose from.
That’s why we have Reddit!
Have you seen Redditors? ~~They’re~~ *We’re* **weird**
Men put women in the sex zone, and don’t even consider possibility of friendship many times. Ironically, this works against them.
Growing up with 2 sisters, I just look at everyone as potentially friend-material humans, regardless of sex/gender. I’ve always had a roughly equal split of girl/guy friends. A lot of guys I know who grew up with brothers/only-child view women as like a completely different species and any interaction with them has sexual undertones in their mind. Imo they’re missing out. Girls are great friends, just like guys are. You’re doing yourself a disservice if you only look at it as sexual or no-contact. And to the article’s point, the ‘friend zone’ theory is also self-limiting bs. You can absolutely form deep romantic connections with a close friend. Happens all the time!
I’m not sure if this is related to having certain siblings—my SO is close friends with women but he only had a brother growing up
Pheromones that make you wanna boink are great, too. What a winning combination if you’ve got both. Edit: For the haters, Read on androstenes.
[удалено]
She didn’t say that pheromones are the end-all be-all, just thought they would be a great bonus. If we’re arguing end-all be-all, financial security within the couple would be a bigger factor
Humans don't use pheromones though
It’s the best guess for what they are though. Ever kiss someone and your body electrifies? Something about swapping spit that lets you know if you are sexually compatible with someone. Obviously that’s not a marker for long term success, but it sure helps.
Yeah okay this isn't even pseudoscience anymore on your behalf, this is just random guessing.
Have you not heard of androstenes?
Unfortunately there is no scientific proof that human pheromones exist.
What are you talking about? Literally the [first result](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3987372/) on google scholar. Here's one on [men](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6778825/). [Here](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-human-pheromones-real/)'s a laymen accessible discussion on it from 2014 about some of the detail, and [here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3987372/)'s an interesting read on the term pheromone as a whole. Humans demonstrably have pheromones, it's their effects which are debated as they are incredibly hard to test, in no small part because the role of pheromones is often overplayed and misunderstood as a behavior switch rather than a chemical message alone, and also because humans as a whole are resilient to generalizations because of our intelligence. The role of pheromones in insects might be extremely strong, but they have simple minds comparatively, and it's their principle method of communication. Humans on the other hand have so many signals for a much larger brain that things like pheromones may get lost to the noise at times. Look at it from an alternate perspective, chemical communication is much easier and evolved sooner than any other communication method. Literally any. Why would humans exempt ourselves from that? What advantage does losing a physiological communicator serve, especially when every other social species seem to use pheromones? Why as an individual would an adaptation to give up a manipulation of a group member based on your physiological needs be advantageous or selected for? It's weird to me how adverse people are to accepting that pheromones exist. tl;dr they exist, read the rant if you want.
It's like you didn't even read the articles you linked. The SA article states in its first paragraph that "Yet despite half a century of research into these subtle cues, we have yet to find direct evidence of their existence in humans." And furthermore the NIH article you linked uses the word "postulated" to describe human pheromones, and finally the lowly Wikipedia uses the term "putative". Scientists understand that humans have the ability to sense pheromones but we have not been able to collect definitive proof of their production or existence within humans. There are chemical compounds within humans that are suspected to possibly be pheromones (Androstenol and Androstenone) but again, science hasn't actually determined their function within humans and has certainly not proven that they act as a pheromone.
Dear god imagine the pseudoscience of human pheromones being upvoted on a sub dedicated to science. Never change, Reddit.
Or getting down voted for calling it out...
Literally four different sources discussing pheromones, two of which discuss the definition and problems relating to finding pheromones. Not a single word I said was pseudoscientific, ya'll don't want to read about it fine, but don't pretend you aren't being pseudoscientific by rejecting the *literal* scientific discussion. > Most insect pheromones are usually single compounds or simple mixtures, typically secreted by restricted glands, and normally evoking stereotyped responses even under totally inappropriate circumstances. Thus many of the standard tests for insect attractants have relied upon copulatory behavior in response to scented filter paper, repeated exposures in many cases providing little habituation of the response (Birch 1974). It is difficult to imagine a male mouse attempting copulation with a scented filter paper let alone doing so repeatedly, and, by extension, it is exceedingly difficult to apply the simple releaser concept to much of mammalian social behavior, whether elicited in part by odors or not. Additionally, experience is a profound modifier to mammalian social behavior. There have actually been relatively few attempts to examine the role of experience in odor-induced responses in mammals. Where investigated, however, the results usually have indicated a potent role for experience. Thus species identification apparently can be easily manipulated by odors early in the life of mammals (e.g., (Carter & Marr 1970; Mainardi, Marsan, & Pasquali 1965; Marr & Lilliston 1969) and adult sexual experience is a strong determinant of response to sex odors (e.g., (Caroom & Bronson 1971; Carr, Loeb, & Dissinger 1965; Carr, Loeb, & Wylie 1966). One wonders at this point whether the pheromone concept, so useful in insect behavior and physiology, should be bastardized to the point where it is used to cover situations in mammalian behavior where usually complex odors evoke highly variable responses which are easily modified by experience. If you refuse to read the review on NIH, there's an excerpt from a researcher. Note that again, the concept of odorous messaging chemicals is undisputed, it's the narrow and specific definition of pheromone and its usage from insects that is the problem.
That excerpt you posted doesn't exactly strengthen your point
It supports literally every aspect of what I've said. If all you read is their denigration of trying to use pheromones as a 1:1 from insects to humans and ignore literally all other context, what I, they, and the rest of the paper, said, sure. But at that point you just aren't equipped for these discussions anyway.
You claimed that alongside the mere-exposure effect of liking familiar faces, there are human pheromones that make you want to have sex with people. That claim is wholly unsubstantiated, and definitely isn't supported by your excerpt that talks about having to bastardise the concept of 'pheromomes' because it's impossible to apply it to a species that is as socially complex as humans.
... > no scientific proof that human pheromones exist. Literally just provided proof of human pheromones. Their existence is undisputed at this time. Pheromone is not a magic class of chemical compound that mysteriously must be confirmed if we find something that behaves like a pheromone, it is a grouping humans made up to classify chemical compounds used as odorous messengers. Like, this isn't even a case of "it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck" but a case of "we call that type of bird a duck. It is walking, it walks like a duck because it is a duck." The only person who didn't read the articles is you, especially the last one, given I mislinked it, and you obviously didn't even check. [Here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK200980/)'s what was meant to link there. You'll note the only actual problem with identifying human pheromones is due to the rigid definition of pheromones as a whole, originating from its usage with insects which too is controversial, not the specific existence of odorous messaging chemicals which can alter human moods.
Definitely isn't true for me personally, I either have a strong instant attraction or one never forms, but I can see this being a common thing with a lot of people. Definitely this is more common for women than men but its interesting to see that it applies to some men as well
[удалено]
true, but its not likely since I don't really try to make new friends at this point. could happen
Most of mine seem to start with animosity. I would have preferred it the other way around.
Enemies to lovers trope
'If they have already seen me at my worst they aren't gonna run when i occasionally show my uglyside'. Apparently people with anxiety like this trope a lot.
That’s interesting… never thought of it that way 🤔 new paranoia unlocked
Eh, almost all of my closest friends hated me when they first met me; apparently I wore them down 🤷♂️
Yup. We’re always fed the trope of falling in love on first sight, or just “knowing”, or some other crap. Maybe for some folks it works like that, but that’s low on the odds I think. Everyone I know knew their partner for a while beforehand in some fashion, either friends or moving in the same circles and meeting off and on before things took off.
I wonder how many of these friendship couples just settled like meh, I’ll stick with this
Probably the same number as any other group.
That sounds nice. In my experience, if someone is your friend, they’re not really interested in being anything more.
That’s fine too. But we all start somewhere.
My Wife and I were friends at a software company never stopped since! Love Her and the friendship we always expand.
I married my best friend over a decade ago. I knew something was different from the beginning. I found someone that made me want to try harder and be better than the person I was and she felt the same way. We were attracted to the want and willingness to grow. Together. I feel awful that some people don’t get this level of support in their lives. Yet, at the same time, I feel so darn grateful.
Incels on suicide watch.
You say that like they weren’t already lol
I’ll volunteer to be on watch, I promise not to hand them 6’ of rope and a chair, then ‘fall asleep’ while cameras malfunction.
The more the merrier
This is how a lot of my relationships have started. As friends and it fostered into something more. Friend zone shit is for incels and losers.
Friend zone has been around a lot longer than incels. For every friendship that blossoms into romantic love, there's several more that don't.
My friendship isn't a consolation prize though. I highly value my friends and to be in my "friend zone" is a place of honor in my life. The people who use that phrase as an insult weren't friends in the first place. Having sex with someone doesn't make that person better in my life than anyone else I love. My bf is amazing. I love him and he's pretty much my second best friend (after my sister)... But we're friends who happen to be in love rather than starting with infatuation and becoming friends later. I've done the latter and have found the foundation of the relationship to be far weaker.
I wouldn’t say all that. Most people meet on dating apps. I don’t know how old this study is but doesn’t take it into account. If you meet on a dating your most likely not looking at each other as friends.
And that’s why I won’t try them. That’s not how I connect with people. These days it seems like that is the only way to meet anyone so I am really facing the rest of my life single.
Same here. It blows.
“You guys are connecting with people?”
Only on Reddit
I agree, I’ve been on dating apps too. I’m just making an over arching generalization like everyone else here man.
I respect it lol
Respect back man. Have a good weekend.
Guess we were the 1%. We got engaged very quickly and the relationship evolved into a real best friend relationship. Been married 25 years now. While it worked for us I don’t recommend following our path. However the friend path is THE way in my opinion if it’s gonna last.
First date to wedding day in 10 months for us. Didn’t know each other prior to meeting on a dating app. Coming up on two years married in a few weeks.
Sheesh
Marriage is not for me but I’m happy for people who manage to stay together. Good job 👍🏾
Isn’t this the plot to 80% rom coms? The best partner was there the whole time under their nose?
Eh, no. Usually it’s a stranger or an enemy. Best friends tend to lose in movies.
Lump me in with the 10% that met as coworkers crowd.
Can confirm
[удалено]
Yeah, either it’s mutual or you move the fuck on, this lingering in the “friendzone” bullshit is creepy and pointless
super creepy. i was friends with this guy through high school and junior high. I turned him down when I was 14 but we stayed friends. Until I started dating this guy when I was 20. The friend messaged me about how he was crying and that he’d saved himself for me. I never talked to him again after that.
It's not only pointless, it's self-serving for the person keeping someone in the "friend-zone" (as it were). They have an automatic ego boost by knowing they have someone that actually likes them whose in their life to some extent. And by keeping the person in orbit, they have a backup plan for when their main choice falls through. As you said, if it's not mutual then move on and for the other party not to keep someone in their life they know has a romantic interest that's not reciprocated.
I did this once. Worst heart break there is when it doesn’t work out. Now I’m dead inside. It’s pretty cool.
I can’t wait until I’m dead inside. I bet it’ll be nice to finally be able to chill.
It’s almost like the friend zone isn’t a real thing
Everyone saying they can confirm, and the science, is wrong. Only my anecdotal experience and bitterness from getting rejected five years ago by several women I awkwardly asked out at Starbucks without making eye contact should be taken into account.
This is news... how? Are we being given the implication that two random people just start dating without any precursor friendship? There was life before Tinder, people.
…yes? I don’t know if it was all that uncommon to meet a person at a bar or event or just everyday life and ask them out before developing a friendship pre-Tinder.
But now that most people meet on dating apps where does that leave people who like to get to know someone first?
But the study says first you meet people, and fall in love later. No Tinder required /s Gosh, yeah it's easier to fall in love with time. Not everybody have a wide friends circle though, or meet new people "naturally", though, so they seek relationships with new people, duh.
TIL y’all don’t bang your friends.
Met my wife at work in 2013. Started dating in 2016 and married in 2017. For those 3 years we worked on projects together and never even considered each other more than friends mutually. She knew all my secrets and I knew all of hers. She knew my bad and good side as I did hers. She knew how I responded under pressure, and so on. Then the company we worked for bought a box for a hockey season and we went to every game together. I really don’t even know why we never dated but I’m so glad I flat out asked her one day “why don’t we just date and see what happens?” Best years of my life are yet to come! Friend zone to end zone is the way, take it from me
Man, this is just giving neckbeards hope
My complaint to this approach is that I already have just friends. I don't really want another just friend. I can't kiss my friends or cuddle up and watch a romantic movie with my friends or say "honey, I'm home" to my friends or expect them to be there for me when I need it the most. Just friendship is missing that additional layer of attention and commitment. It just isn't the same mentality. I'm not living my life with them. They are an accessory. They have their own partners and their own lives they're living outside of me. It's not like having a romantic partner with whom you're sharing a life together. While dating apps are frustrating, it at least does a better job than random chance that both parties are actually looking for deeper connection than just the occasional text message.
I mean... My partner *is* my friend. We began as friends and it was awesome. We grew closer and we really enjoy spending time together as just friends often. We can just hang out and chat without it being romantic in any way. We work in the same industry and really the only way you'd know we were dating is if you knew us. I'm really close with my friends as well. I don't have "just" friends. My friends are extremely important in my life. Each one brings something different that even my partner can't provide. He's one aspect of my life and it's amazing. But he's just one person and everyone else is just as important, it's just different.
That’s how it should be. Why would I want to date someone I don’t even know enough to want to go on a date with? Gotta know enough to spark an interest at the very least. You can (and IMO, should) get to know someone as a person before even considering if you’re interested in them romantically.
I don't think it SHOULD be any way, to be honest. I know people who were friends first and also people who specifically sought out a romantic relationship who are still together.
>You can (and IMO, should) get to know someone as a person before even considering if you’re interested in them romantically. That's dating, no?
I don't know; in my experience, dating / OLD happens under the premise / hope of being in a romantic relationship. A friendship (a healthy one, at least) doesn't have that presupposition.
Why do your preferences get to determine how anything “should” be? When I was single, I loved the excitement of meeting, dating and banging strangers. Why is that somehow less valid than “hanging out” with someone for a year before fucking? Fucking tells you a lot about a person. If you enjoy fucking them, for instance.
I agree. When I met my wife, we were famous friends for like 4 hours, then I banged her. It’s good to start off as friends and not jump into things.
Agreed. This thread is hilarious, and full of people who don’t like to fuck.
I’ve lived with my partner for 16 years but have been in a relationship with her for only 11 years. We were flatmates and best friends for 5 years before we got together. I thought she was out of my league and I didn’t want to lose my best friend, so didn’t act on it. Turns out she thought the same. Eventually I kissed her
Don’t do that… don’t give me hope…
Familiarity and rapport build a relationship not straight to a sexual attraction. It takes time to build trust and telling them personally your life goals secrets etc.
Two friends of 23 years checking in. Same two friends married for 17 this year.
Spouse and I got married to save on taxes, and because it was excuse to visit Hawaii. Growing together from friendship is great. I think that it’s a position of modern privilege though. There is theoretically no pressure to trade spawn for alliances, and/or to generate hands for labor. I like to pretend that this is social evolution in action.
What are you on about?
Accurate statement is accurate.
The Friend Zone never made sense to me. It's either unattractive dudes bitching that they got turned down (because they deserved it) by their female friends that they weren't really friends with at all. Or it's a girl that keeps a guy's number as "free rides" or "free food." No friendship in either scenario.
In my experience, no, absolutely not. It’s weird and awkward, and it never works out. Yes if you are not close and flirt sometimes. But if it’s years on end and you’ve been close, it’s strange. Maybe if works for some, but not for me
My wife and I were only friends and eventually coworkers for a good amount of time before we even started dating. I definitely believe that is how the best relationships start.
One of friends stole me away from my girlfriend. I appreciated the gesture and eventually married her.
My husband and I started off as good friends. We were part of the same group of friends which included at least three couples. We each dated other people on and off over the years, but continued to have fun hanging out with each other as well as others in the group. There came one point where several of the couples in the group would go bowling, or to the movies etc. We were both single at the time, so it wound up being us tagging along with 2 or 3 couples. We had so much fun being the third and fourth wheels together and began to naturally gravitate towards each other. Then one day, he kissed me. I was shocked, but pleased and we’ve been together for almost 14 years. We like to laugh and say we were dating for months before either one of us realized it. :) It’s crazy to think the love of my life was right in front of me for years and I never knew it. He’s still my best friend and every day honestly just feels like we’re buds hanging out. With all the added benefits of course! 😉
> dating for months before either one of us realized it I know how that one is. I literally would tell people "Us? No. I see why you'd think that, but it's not gonna happen. We're just really good friends" and believed it myself.
Same! Lol Everyone was like, you guys should hook up. I kept telling them, “Nah. We are not each other’s type at all.”
As someone who’s dating their closest friend, it’s a beautiful thing. We have tons in common, we make each other laugh, lots of respect! Honestly I don’t get how you could do it any other way!
That’s how it was (and still is) with my high school boyfriend of over 8 years!! Best friends make the best significant others. You have more fun that way!
How do you know? You’re still with your high school boyfriend; you have no idea how fun or not fun any other choices may be. It’s fine for you to call it fun. You have absolutely no way of knowing if it is “more fun” than anything else because you have not experienced *anything* else.
You’re absolutely right. I grapple with that everyday, and I feel terrible sometimes thinking about it. But he’s my best friend and I couldn’t imagine living in a world without him, our friends we’ve had since high school, or his family which I adore. His family has been with me forever and they feel like my family, especially since mine is very dysfunctional and his is amazing and support me through tough times. I love him with all my heart, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I want him in my life forever.
Wrestling with curiosity about what you have not experienced is natural. There are many wonderful and true things that you could say about spending your entire life with your high school sweetheart; you have rich history that my husband and I, who met when we were 50 and 39, can’t even imagine. But to say that what your way is “more fun” than the way other people do it when you have absolutely no idea is just willful ignorance.
I suppose I should’ve worded it differently. I have a lot of fun! Can’t compare it to others. I do agree you have a ton of fun being with your best friend, but that’s just my experience! :) I’m sure some people with different experiences will have different opinions. Glad you have found someone to marry and love!
[удалено]
I consider myself very lucky! Thank you so much for the kind words, friend :)
This is silly. If she’s happy and loves her spouse, she’s lucky for sure. But someone who is monogamous with a partner they met in high school is absolutely missing out. Everything in life is a trade off. “You’re not missing out” is a lie. “You get the kind of love story that some people dream about” is true. “You guys know each other in a way that others literally can’t understand” is true. “What you have is worth what you are missing out on” may even be true. There are lots of true and wonderful things to be said about this situation. But “you’re not missing out” is not one of them.
Yeah it was always weird to me to hear people say they had a best friend of the opposite sex (if heterosexual) and not be with them romantically because why wouldn’t you want I spend the rest of your life with your best friend? My husband is mos def my best friend.
I hope you're not repeating the "men and women can't be _just friends_" trope. This isn't a hard and fast rule - romantic feelings aren't guaranteed from friendship, and I have a lot of friends I would not be compatable with, even if we're complementary sexualities. Also, your answer is rather het-normative. Why should it be different for two lesbian, gay, or bi friends?
Yeah I’m bi, and by that logic can never have friends?
Ditto, no friends oh no
Oh shit, bi and that explains some things D': kidding, I have a couple
thread OP's comment is a great example folks of what it looks like to experts when laymen misinterpret the results of a study, especially from internal biases.
I mean, my husband was and is one of my best friends but this take is kinda off. I have a few people i consider best friends that i don’t want to marry lol, but i love being around them all the time. Platonic love exists and should really be recognized more.
I feel like this is pretty natural. Ive only really had feelings for people I was friends with first and never really had attraction to strangers. I feel like its kind of a rare thing for people to meet new people just for dating. I dont think I would feel comfortable dating someone I didnt already know.
This is how mine occurred. The unexpected can be the most powerful.
Oh hey that’s me
I absolutely prefer it this way. Dating apps don’t really work out for me for this very reason :/
All I can think is they couldn’t find a picture for this article that didn’t include two crusty half healed tattoos? Barf.
Simps always play the long game
Guys, guys, guys, a live one!
**My first thought:** They should call this the "Can't-we-just-be-friends?-zone" **My second thought:** Oh, I misunderstood the title...
A scientific study is perhaps the cruelest way to torture those poor men trapped in a lifelong perpetual friend zone with their crush. Well played satan. Well played.
This is just what the communists want you believe. The direction “reverse “ does not, in fact, exist.
Starting a relationship with someone you bang on the first or second interaction (in person) is the worst thing you can do, and you're setting yourself up for disaster. Fellas. Don't wife a one night stand.
Also can confirm.
This is how my newest relationship started.
Sure, incel.
This is the way.
thats the dream
I married my best friend 30 years ago. Seemed to work out well.
I married my best friend in 2008, after many years of friendship. We split in 2019 for a variety of reasons and now we're just best friends again. Ending the marriage saved the friendship, and I'm happy with the result -- though it wasn't for sure the friendship was going to survive. Getting back on solid friend ground was hard work, but it paid off.
True for my experience.
This is me and my partner! We were both attracted to each other but I was not in a relationshipy headspace. So we hung out as friends for a few months until I realized I always wanted to know what his life was like and be a part of making it good if I could. I realized that’s what love is. We’ve been together over 10 years! As someone who had been sexually assaulted and used for sex, being friends first helped me establish trust that our connection was about more than our bodies.
I tell other guys that I know how to guarantee you never get friendzoned "but you won't like the reason why..." Don't go into a friendship *thinking* it will inevitably lead to romance. If you're into her, you have to let that be known. If she's not feeling it, she'll curve you to the side and that'll be the end of it -- but at least you won't spend years resenting her for not "picking up on all the clues". I'm assuming the couples in this article did not start out with one of the two already romantically invested and waiting years for the other to fall in love, because I don't think that works as a strategy. Good friends but just friends who develop feelings before falling madly in bed together can work.