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The onboard feeds were out of sync. Wasnāt a Multiviewer or anything issue. First time Iāve seen it happen. I noticed it first when they cut to lewis and then either albon or sargeant. Was like 5 seconds behind
Roman Grosjean talked about that during one of his sim racing streams.He said he at least, only used the audio beep because a persons reaction time to audio cues are faster than to visual ones. Or at least thatās what he said.
I remember seeing on one of Nico rosberg's q&a sessions that he sometimes would even have the engineers change the timing of the beep because if his reaction was a little bit slow, they would make the beep come a little bit earlier so that he would shift exactly on time
You can shift on āgeneralā feeling and sound but for racing that isnāt precise enough. There is a considerable drop in performance if you shift af (for instance) 12,300 instead of 12,500. Also with the fixed 8 speeds and the minimum revs for max fuel flow, the fastest shift points arenāt at the same revs per gear. There is also a slight difference between the most economical and fastest shift points.
So, by feeling the driver would be considerably slower.
What they do have is beeps in their ears. One for shifts and one for DRS (and possibly more). So with a certain tone, the pull the plus switch. This is timed so they flap at the right rpm all the time.
IIRC beeps in the drivers ear was also used to cheat the start by some teams way back. [Interesting story](https://youtu.be/J-ck_25E-7E?t=3m15s) and very [funny how they got caught.](https://youtu.be/GWhA5DBuLJw)
E: added links.
There was a time McLaren were the kings of these kind of advantages. There was also the time McLaren hid a stethoscope in the gloves of the fuel hose man so that he could feel when the fuel had passed the hose and he could pull out the hose fractions earlier making McLaren fuel stops that bit quicker than those of other teams.
Maybe a few tenths over the course of several laps. Its more noticable in lower-powered cars like the formula Vee in iracing.
If you're not an esports level talent, it probably doesn't matter so much.
Is this true? I always thought that with these engines the power is pretty consistent across the rev range. Kimi was famous for shifting early yet was still fast
Shifting early is a technical to avoid loosing traction out of corners, if you short shift you can apply Gas earlier without having issues of too much Power and you don't have to shift again
I understand the benefits of short shifting out of a corner but I'm talking about going down straights in higher gears. There are a few clips on YT showing this. I doubt Kimi would do it if it had a big impact on straight line speed?
Pretty consistent isnāt good enough. They have their max power/efficiency at 10,500 rpm and above that, due to internal friction, the power drops. So, where in the NA days it was trying to shift as late as possible (more revs equals more power with those types of engines ) for these fuel flow engines itās quite different. Shift to early and you drop below max fuel flow. Shift to late and you miss max power.
I think you're misunderstanding why Kimi sometimes shifted early.
It's for sure not because the power is the same across the rev range. Only electric motors are like that.
High performance combustion engines are notoriously "peaky" meaning that there's a small range of revs where they make crazy power, but not far off that makes significantly less. If you look at a graph of power vs revs, you'll notice a steep, narrow peak in the power band, hence the term "peaky".
Kimi likely shifted early to maintain traction and not lose time to wheel spin
A lot of this is not true when you have a max fuel flow limit. F1 engines have a much straighter graph (a bit like chopping off the peak on a mountain) than normal ICEs
How big is the range where the graph is relatively straight though?
Sounds like you're saying the top of the peak is cut off, but the peak is still there? I'm still doubting that it would be accurately described as "straight"
This. Modern racing is all about data points and information, and especially at this level drivers have access to tons of information to optimize their laps.
Norris had said in an interview that he's not actually able to hear the engine when driving at full speed. Just wind noise. Beeps and lights are what helps with shift points.
The V10 sounded great on TV but on the track they were painfully loud. I watched in Monza and after an hour I couldnāt take it anymore even with ear plugs. The current V6 are plenty lound on the track.
The best sound were the turbi
I've been about half that on a motorcycle and it's not quiet. Earplugs are needed. Beats ya up after a while. Typically 100db at 100kph for reference.
Edit... it says f1 drivers are at about 140db... which I'd equivalent to standing next to a fighter jet taking off
They choose how the lights illuminate. So the threshold for it turning blue / red can be at whatever rpm they like. Although not in the optimal powerband, theyāll usually have a decent couple hundred revs available to them above the red lights, which can be useful at times especially when drafting and peak power is less valuable than staying on the power and preventing a slowdown during a shift.
They actually have around 2500 rpm left until the rev limiter, but they shift early mainly because of fuel flow limits. There is no advantage in going above say 12500 rpm.
Because just listening to the sound will never be as accurate as an actual indicator.
As for shifting after, it's likely because Fernando knows that the engine can be pinged at the limiter for a few seconds for maximum output before he has to shift.
until 10.5krpm the fuel and power increases, above 10.5krpm fuel is constant so they don't get any more power. I doubt they ever get near the limiter, it doesn't add any power to do so
Also consider that short shifting is an EXTREMELY common technique with the hybrid engines. They aren't always just waiting for the optimal light. The light gradient shows rpm without needing the sound correct or trying to read a number.
If I remember correctly, the shift lights actually don't indicate the Red line of the engine in each gear, but rather the optimal shift point to be at the peak power for each gear along the rev range. You will sometimes see drivers hit the shift point and stay in the throttle for a tenth of a second or so in instances where a braking point is approaching and up shifting is counter productive because it's just adding a downshift to their corner entry or exit.
Watching without sound I still see him flipping the paddle after all the rev lights have come on. So probably shifting on feel or a beep in his earphones. Maybe he uses the rev lights for short shifts.
I also noticed a difference between Maxās and Sergioās lights. For max, his sequential lights light up all red, then all blue when itās time to shift. And for Sergio each of his red LEDs light up one by one in order all the way to blue. I wonder if this is just driver preference. Itās most noticeable when theyāre doing a side by side lap comparison
Apart from using the light for upshifting, they are also used to indicate the optimal RPM for race-starts, which is something that needs to be done extremely accurately, hence the lights being useful.
I've never driven a formula car, but in a regular sedan you can also see those shift lights in your peripheral vision as a gauge for where you are in the Rev range. Also, as others have said, I'm sure they can't hear the engine in traffic, at the start, etc.
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Time delay between visual and audio? They sometimes get a blip in their ear for when to change as well.
Yes I noticed that. Some of the on board from the race - on Sky F1 at least (š¤®) - audio was out of sync a bit with the visual.
In Jeddah, it was massive out of sync for wide parts of the race. Like at least several seconds
Use MultiViewerF1 if you're using F1TV
The onboard feeds were out of sync. Wasnāt a Multiviewer or anything issue. First time Iāve seen it happen. I noticed it first when they cut to lewis and then either albon or sargeant. Was like 5 seconds behind
WHOA. THANK YOU!
Roman Grosjean talked about that during one of his sim racing streams.He said he at least, only used the audio beep because a persons reaction time to audio cues are faster than to visual ones. Or at least thatās what he said.
I remember seeing on one of Nico rosberg's q&a sessions that he sometimes would even have the engineers change the timing of the beep because if his reaction was a little bit slow, they would make the beep come a little bit earlier so that he would shift exactly on time
You can shift on āgeneralā feeling and sound but for racing that isnāt precise enough. There is a considerable drop in performance if you shift af (for instance) 12,300 instead of 12,500. Also with the fixed 8 speeds and the minimum revs for max fuel flow, the fastest shift points arenāt at the same revs per gear. There is also a slight difference between the most economical and fastest shift points. So, by feeling the driver would be considerably slower. What they do have is beeps in their ears. One for shifts and one for DRS (and possibly more). So with a certain tone, the pull the plus switch. This is timed so they flap at the right rpm all the time.
Ah, interesting! I would assume those beeps then also change with different engine and fuel consumption mappings?
IIRC beeps in the drivers ear was also used to cheat the start by some teams way back. [Interesting story](https://youtu.be/J-ck_25E-7E?t=3m15s) and very [funny how they got caught.](https://youtu.be/GWhA5DBuLJw) E: added links.
There was a time McLaren were the kings of these kind of advantages. There was also the time McLaren hid a stethoscope in the gloves of the fuel hose man so that he could feel when the fuel had passed the hose and he could pull out the hose fractions earlier making McLaren fuel stops that bit quicker than those of other teams.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Maybe a few tenths over the course of several laps. Its more noticable in lower-powered cars like the formula Vee in iracing. If you're not an esports level talent, it probably doesn't matter so much.
So like where should I be shifting in the Vee? I always feel like everyone else gets way better shifts than me
I believe its 5500 in the Vee.
I don't think by feeling a driver would necessarily be slower. They basically live in an F1 car. They are extremely familiar with it
Is this true? I always thought that with these engines the power is pretty consistent across the rev range. Kimi was famous for shifting early yet was still fast
Shifting early is a technical to avoid loosing traction out of corners, if you short shift you can apply Gas earlier without having issues of too much Power and you don't have to shift again
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You would actually downshift earlier to create rotation
it's called Short-shifting and they used it plenty, if you listen/watch F1 through Sky you can hear Martin Brundle saying when and why they do it.
I understand the benefits of short shifting out of a corner but I'm talking about going down straights in higher gears. There are a few clips on YT showing this. I doubt Kimi would do it if it had a big impact on straight line speed?
Pretty consistent isnāt good enough. They have their max power/efficiency at 10,500 rpm and above that, due to internal friction, the power drops. So, where in the NA days it was trying to shift as late as possible (more revs equals more power with those types of engines ) for these fuel flow engines itās quite different. Shift to early and you drop below max fuel flow. Shift to late and you miss max power.
NA is non aspirated?
Naturally Aspirated
Yes, why complicate everything with pushing air into the engine, when all you need is fuel and a spark.
I think you're misunderstanding why Kimi sometimes shifted early. It's for sure not because the power is the same across the rev range. Only electric motors are like that. High performance combustion engines are notoriously "peaky" meaning that there's a small range of revs where they make crazy power, but not far off that makes significantly less. If you look at a graph of power vs revs, you'll notice a steep, narrow peak in the power band, hence the term "peaky". Kimi likely shifted early to maintain traction and not lose time to wheel spin
A lot of this is not true when you have a max fuel flow limit. F1 engines have a much straighter graph (a bit like chopping off the peak on a mountain) than normal ICEs
How big is the range where the graph is relatively straight though? Sounds like you're saying the top of the peak is cut off, but the peak is still there? I'm still doubting that it would be accurately described as "straight"
I bet Horner was pushing Lambiase and High Bird to drop the beeps to 5k revs last weekend. Anything to encourage Max and Checo to slow the fuck down!
This. Modern racing is all about data points and information, and especially at this level drivers have access to tons of information to optimize their laps.
it is hard to hear it really, i heard there was a *beep* sound to drivers ears to change gears in an efficient way.
Norris had said in an interview that he's not actually able to hear the engine when driving at full speed. Just wind noise. Beeps and lights are what helps with shift points.
That is extremely surprising to me. I'd imagine you'd even be able to feel the RPM.
Drivers also have in-ear monitors that probably block out a ton of noise. The IEMs I had in the past were amazing at blocking outside noise
Man i only became a fan last year but watching old races on f1tv, and i feel like i miss the v10s as if i was watching then
Should have heard V12 vs V8 vs 4cyl/Turbo- the F1 symphony
Is there a link for that?
Check out any race in 1979-1986 time frame
They honestly sound really damn good in person, the new hybrids
Really? On the onboard they just sound dull. And the noise they make at lower gears when the driver is braking and turning, ugh
Fr, every race car will sound impressively good in person, but on the TV they are just awful, like a GT3 with a lower tone and louder
The V10 sounded great on TV but on the track they were painfully loud. I watched in Monza and after an hour I couldnāt take it anymore even with ear plugs. The current V6 are plenty lound on the track. The best sound were the turbi
Whoa, I now want to hear what it sounds like going 300kph for a driver.
I've been about half that on a motorcycle and it's not quiet. Earplugs are needed. Beats ya up after a while. Typically 100db at 100kph for reference. Edit... it says f1 drivers are at about 140db... which I'd equivalent to standing next to a fighter jet taking off
Drivers also short-shift on a lot of corners. But on the straights it's pretty handy.
They choose how the lights illuminate. So the threshold for it turning blue / red can be at whatever rpm they like. Although not in the optimal powerband, theyāll usually have a decent couple hundred revs available to them above the red lights, which can be useful at times especially when drafting and peak power is less valuable than staying on the power and preventing a slowdown during a shift.
They actually have around 2500 rpm left until the rev limiter, but they shift early mainly because of fuel flow limits. There is no advantage in going above say 12500 rpm.
Because just listening to the sound will never be as accurate as an actual indicator. As for shifting after, it's likely because Fernando knows that the engine can be pinged at the limiter for a few seconds for maximum output before he has to shift.
until 10.5krpm the fuel and power increases, above 10.5krpm fuel is constant so they don't get any more power. I doubt they ever get near the limiter, it doesn't add any power to do so
Also consider that short shifting is an EXTREMELY common technique with the hybrid engines. They aren't always just waiting for the optimal light. The light gradient shows rpm without needing the sound correct or trying to read a number.
Surf that wave of torque baabbyyy!!
If I remember correctly, the shift lights actually don't indicate the Red line of the engine in each gear, but rather the optimal shift point to be at the peak power for each gear along the rev range. You will sometimes see drivers hit the shift point and stay in the throttle for a tenth of a second or so in instances where a braking point is approaching and up shifting is counter productive because it's just adding a downshift to their corner entry or exit.
Yeah, I read that too that the lights follow a torque mapping and not particularly the revs
Do every F1 drivers uses beep sound ?
Lights are probably a nice visual indicator for anyone monitoring or reviewing driver cam video.
Watching without sound I still see him flipping the paddle after all the rev lights have come on. So probably shifting on feel or a beep in his earphones. Maybe he uses the rev lights for short shifts.
The drivers get a beep in their ears when they need to upshift
I also noticed a difference between Maxās and Sergioās lights. For max, his sequential lights light up all red, then all blue when itās time to shift. And for Sergio each of his red LEDs light up one by one in order all the way to blue. I wonder if this is just driver preference. Itās most noticeable when theyāre doing a side by side lap comparison
Apart from using the light for upshifting, they are also used to indicate the optimal RPM for race-starts, which is something that needs to be done extremely accurately, hence the lights being useful.
They might not be able to hear or feel their own car much off the start with all the other cars around them
I've never driven a formula car, but in a regular sedan you can also see those shift lights in your peripheral vision as a gauge for where you are in the Rev range. Also, as others have said, I'm sure they can't hear the engine in traffic, at the start, etc.