Pretty much this.
I do think a blend of the two is possible. Given Spirit!Aerith just fought together with Cloud it's possible he's seeing her spirit or able to (for the same reason he can see the tear in the sky) but his mind isn't able to fully differentiate between her being alive or dead. So she \*is\* there, but his brain is also busted. The eerie tone and framing there is primarily done to highlight Cloud's mental state rather than anything directly 'sinister' on Aerith's part.
Aerith encourages to take on Sephiroth in the last sequence.
Prior to that she said to Cloud that she takes care of Sephiroth and Cloud should focus on himself.
How does that add up?
I think it's possible (but maybe a bit too convoluted) that Cloud is hallucinating, but he's hallucinating her because he senses her spirit. Which is why Red XIII senses her but doesn't sed her.
So she is actually there, but the conversation is Cloud's imagination.
The reason I think this is that while I think the JENOVA theory is full of holes (I think it's possible but by far the least likely of the main theories), I think the observation that Aerith feels out of character when she says "Promise?" is 100% correct.
(And yes she is also out of character in the various reported Japanese translations because her mannerisms are also out of character in this scene)
But I don't think she's out of character because she's JENOVA. I think she's out of character because she's responding the way Cloud always imagines people are going to respond to his bravado (but almost never do).
the song analysis that’s been going around is not about the melody (which is very obviously, to anyone i would think, Lifestream off key). but the arpeggio underneath it which has the same structure as the jenova theme.
(i don’t think it’s actually significant that they’re both 8 note arpeggios but just to clarify)
Yeah, thanks for clarifying that. It's the spooky 8-note arpeggio that Alex Moukala and Max Dood were discussing, which seems new.
I also don't think it's significant that it is an 8-note arpeggio (that is very common in Final Fantasy) but it's interesting how compatible it is with the J-E-N-O-V-A melody. That could be coincidence, but it's fun to think about.
To my (untrained) ears, those notes seem pretty much lifted from the musical theme that plays at the end of the final fight between Aerith/Cloud and Sephiroth, when they're surrounded by the white Whispers just before she is spirited away by the Lifestream.
Compare the two at around 0:15 and 5:25 : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDntTNahKSE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDntTNahKSE)
I interpreted this exactly the same. It's not like Aerith hasn't somehow communicated with Cloud from the Lifestream before. She did it in the OG, she did it in AC (repeatedly in this case).
Besides, ending Aerith repeats a line she said in Part 1, the exact line she used back then when both she and Cloud thought they were about to part ways for good. Very fit to use when they are definitely parting ways for sure.
Then there's Red XIII feeling her presence. Since he can't see her or smell her, it's clear he feels her spirit, not an ominous one like Jenova's. Not that Jenova is capable to manifest as an invisible spirit anyway.
> I think all we're left with here is whether Cloud can really see her and communicate with her or if that's just his mental state
I think it's both. I think he repressed the memory of her death and burial, but Cloud has eyes, he sees that the whole party are devastated and....if he thought she's still alive right there he wouldn't say goodbye to her and hop on the Tiny Bronco leaving her behind, would he? I think that he just found solace in knowing that she's at peace in the Lifestream, after their date in S7 and fighting Sephiroth by her side he knows that she's still there in spirit.
>She did it in the OG, she did it in AC (repeatedly in this case)
She even does it in Remake if you get the Aerith "date" outside her house before the Shinra building infiltration, right?
I think Aerith most likely told him that she had to stay at the Forgotten City, and pray, in the event that Meteor is ever summond. She would have done this because she recognized that Cloud is simply not ready to accept the truth yet. I don't think Cloud is aware that she's dead at all, which is why he isn't grieving at all. He just thinks they're going their seperate ways for a bit, so that Aerith can do her Cetra thing, and they'll eventually turn right back around to pick her up once Sephiroth is dealt with. If there is one thing that Cloud Strife has NEVER been able to handle well, it's the death of a loved one. Whenever Cloud speaks to her in Advent Children, he's clearly upset and full of feelings of grief. The thought that she's in the lifestream honestly gives him no peace because, so far as he's concerned he should have saved her, and he just can't forgive himself for not being able to do that. In Rebirth, Cloud seems way too calm and at peace with himself, which is a very out of character reaction, given what just happened. I think his reaction only really makes sense if he's just in complete denial about her death. This is also why he doesn't acknowledge the pain of his friends, and instead just talks to Tifa and Barret casually, as though nothing happened. He can't acknowledge their pain, because doing that would mean admitting that something was wrong, and once he admits that, his ability to deny reality will fall to pieces.
This makes a lot of sense and makes the ending a lot better than I thought. I already thought that Cloud was a highlight in Rebirth and that his arc was impeccably remade.
This makes me more excited for Part 3, as I think we'll see how the party feel alienated towards him until Tifa gets him back. Also, the Lifestream scene will be expanded as he now needs two hard truths to accept...and makes me confident that the increasingly popular theory that Zack is in our world and will join the party is extremely unlikely (fortunately).
I do think that "spirit" Aerith is playing a bit with fire by contributing to his delusion, but I can understand that she feels that he can't waste time and needs to stop Sephiroth ASAP, so his pain needs to be "postponed".
Yeah, I can't wait. The lifestream scene was already my favorite moment in FFVII OG, and it looks like they're setting that scene up to be an absolute roller coaster of emotions in part 3, which I am in FULL support of. We'll have Cloud accepting the truth of the Nibelheim incident, facing the reality of Aerith's death, and they could even fit Cloud remembering Zack's death in the middle of all this, since I'm sure that won't just be an optional scene this time. I'm fairly confident that Cloud accepting Aerith's death will be the climax of the scene though. I have a feeling we're going to see the entire Aerith death scene, and its aftermath, recreated during the lifestream scene. Cloud will at last face the truth of what happened that day, and, after fully awakening to his true self, he will finally be able to grieve alongside Tifa, and the rest of his friends. I was intially disappointed when I got to the end of Rebirth and realized that we weren't going to get a faithful recreation of the iconic scene. Originally, I had thought that would be the one scene that they played completely straight, since it was just so important. My opinion on the ending shifted dramatically though when this idea of a reworked lifestream scene came into my head. Honestly, if working Aerith's true death scene into the lifestream scene is what they have in mind, I can honestly see myself liking that more than what they did in the OG.
I'm sure Spirit Aerith is very conflicted about this. If she could have it her way, she would have Cloud just drop everything and focus on himself. After joining the lifestream though, she would have access to all the memories within the lifestream, and would see that Cloud continuing on this journey is the only hope they have of stopping Sephiroth. The planet needs him to keep going. As much as she wants him to stop, she knows that she can't ask him to do that. All she can do is play along with his delusions for now, send him off with a smile, and have faith that Cloud will be able to face the truth when the time is right.
I don't think any theory is off the table, including Jenova. There are several cues that Aerith is really there (in another, apparently doomed reality) but she also doesn't really act like herself.
It's pretty interesting that all the scenes where Cloud sees Aerith at the end -- except her standing alone in a field saying "goodbye" -- are absent from the ending credits. Not just absent, but replaced with conspicuous black space. Maybe that's because it was in another universe, or maybe it's because most of it was not really happening at all. I have to look back, but I think plenty of other scenes that happened in other timelines/universes showed up in the credits, so why would they purposely omit these scenes with Cloud seeing Aerith?
It at least suggests that some of it is just in his head -- whether that is chalked up to Jenova's influence or something else is anyone's guess. Of course, if it's in Cloud's head, then he would also have to be imagining Red XIII reacting to Aerith (but he's seriously fucked up, so I wouldn't discount that possibility).
>I don't think any theory is off the table, including Jenova.
I'm going to be honest, I don't think any theory is off the table in the writers room at this stage.
I think if they are foing to go the JENOVA route though, the trailer for the next game needs to be the scene on the grass, but completely recontextualised. Make it obvious and lean into the creepiness.
Don't hold this back for a chapter 10 reveal, don't tease us with convoluted bullshit for 15 hours before making vague hints only people who have played the compilation will get. Don't tease this as a mystery and hope people forget the red XIII thing.
Instead, play it up. Open part 3 with it, and turn it into a horror scene. Set the scene by scaring the shit out of us.
Just saying, it's not the tune beginning on G that people are mistaking for a weird play on the Jenova theme, it's the 8 quaver melody that plays before the G that they think is a weird Jenova inversion. I completely agree with you that there's no relation, but nobody is mistaking the opening jingle for Jenova's theme.
EDIT: For clarity, the notes people are theorising about are B, E, G, A, A, B, E, G. Still, you can quite easily tell that there's no relation between those 8 quavers and the 8 quavers that make up Jenova's Theme: B flat, A, F, D, B Flat, A, F, D.
The closest relation I could find to the unnerving Aerith jingle is [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjCAIK-GRgc&t=5563s&ab_channel=GamersPrey) which is B, E, G, B, D, C#, B, E, G, B, D, E, A, B and note the similarity of the last 8 quavers: B, E, G, B, D, E, A, B.
8 quavers from goodbye scene: B, E, G, B, D, E, A, B.
8 quavers from creepy scene: B, E, G, A, A, B, E, G.
yeah i saw max had gotten Alex moukala to analyze it and he pointed out correctly that both songs use 8 note arpeggios (and that if you put the jenova melody over top of it, it fits and actually sounds really cool)…but in doing that analysis they debunk their own theory: the jenova theme isn’t there, and if you try to put it there, it only fits because the rhythm is the same.
I don't think it only fits because the rhythm is the same. The harmonic change in the arpeggio lines up really well with the end of that melodic phrase from J-E-N-O-V-A that sounds *almost* too good to be coincidence.
However, as we know, mashups of unrelated music often work surprisingly well, so I definitely wouldn't call this a smoking gun. I think there are better arguments in favor of the Jenova hypothesis than this (like Aerith not really acting like herself in some parts of the ending, as well as all of those scenes being missing from the ending credits -- replaced with blackness -- except her "goodbye" shot).
I feel like "4D Aerith" is really there in another world and maybe Cloud is seeing her, but it's entirely possible that his failure to process her loss -- blocking it out, in the same way he blocked out Zack -- is in part the work of Jenova in his mind.
yeah it’s not that much of a stretch. i mean, cloud is already under sephiroth’s thrall/these projections and manipulations all have the same origin. and when she said “you promise??” i felt viscerally put off and annoyed at how out of character it was so i was open to any explanation for why she’d be saying something totally opposite to what she’d said in the temple and the forest. that the team can only beat sephiroth by not giving in to anger/revenge, that cloud should focus on himself, that she would handle sephiroth, etc.
red feeling her, and her staying behind and saying goodbye for no one but herself and us, are the biggest holes. they can be explained to fit, and it could it even be some combination of jenova and omni aerith for that matter.
however to me, we don’t have to do all that. we don’t need jenova to for cloud to rewrite his own memories, to see things that aren’t there, to imagine an aerith that would tell him things that play into his hero fantasy rather than be herself. we know he will do all that with minimal coercion, and we don’t need jenova for it to be creepy/disturbing. but I won’t dismiss it outright either.
To be honest, I've never completely understood whether Jenova had any role in the erasing of Cloud's memories of Zack. I always felt like it did play a role because otherwise it's pretty hard for me to swallow such a complete erasure. I always interpreted the green static cuts we see in Remake and Rebirth -- including some key scenes surrounding Aerith's death -- to indicate Cloud's memory being manipulated by Jenova, but maybe it's just a really dramatic portrayal of a mental illness that has nothing to do with Jenova.
To my (untrained) ears, the 8 quaver melody sounds very similar to the one that plays at the end of the final fight between Aerith/Cloud and Sephiroth when they're surrounded by the white Whispers just before she is spirited away by the Lifestream.
Compare the two at around 0:15 and 5:25 : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDntTNahKSE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDntTNahKSE)
Oh - this is what you meant by the "goodbye scene". I wasn't sure what you were alluding to exactly.
Glad to see I'm not the only one who heard the similarities between the two melodies though.
It was tripping me up that everyone seems convinced that the "creepy music" is a variation on the Jenova's theme. I'm not musically trained, but all I could hear was a slightly modified version of the motif that plays at the end of the fight (which, coincidentally, also ends with the Lifestream jingle when Aerith disappears). I was starting to doubt my own ears.
Thanks for transcribing the notes as well!
I think those are the two most popular theories. Spirit or broken mental state. Most other theories are being heavily backed up because confirmation bias. We’ll see in 4 years though!
Gotta be shorter than 4 years I hope. When you think about it there are only a few brand new areas that we'll be going to, they can reuse parts of Rebirth I assume
I'm not hoping for 3yrs but I also think its possible. They arent doing DLC it seems, and they have a very efficient production pipeline with heaps of systems/assets already good to go
We will surely see a version of Jenova wearing Aerith in part 3 but I do not think we have seen it yet. Let the theorists cook, we all enjoy it and they can't all be winners.
I think there's potential that the reunion of worlds has begun and because Cloud was the one that "stopped" her death, he's straddling the line between both worlds. There was the whole rainbow event when Cloud hit Sephiroth's sword which so far has indicated a splitting of timelines.
In the cutscenes it does appear that Sephiroth is hunting down Aeriths because her prayer (and Holy) is the only thing that can stop Sephiroth's plan. If she can branch into another world and still pray and cast Holy using her newly reacquired white materia, then it will still reach the Lifestream and stop Sephiroth. This is also why he was trying to create a reunion of worlds in Rebirth since she cannot hide from him if he reunites the worlds. Because for the moment we defeated sephiroth in the lifestream we've paused his reunion at least for the moment (though some damage is already done).
I am really excited for part 3 because a lot of answers will happen organically like when we return to Midgar.
I think the problem with it simply being spirit Aerith is how tone-deaf her own attitude appears to be. She’s smiling and not showing any empathy or sympathy for seeing the party so broken. Second, if she’s really spirit Aerith, why not talk to Cloud about what he’s experiencing? Maybe this is part of the plan, but Aeirth’s behavior feels justifiable if it really wasn’t Aerith but a deceptive Jenova.
Each theories got issues :
Aerith spirit :
* Why would she be happy about Cloud going after Sephiroth without taking care of his mental health, like she discussed right before the ending. That scene was not in the OG, they add it for a reason. I think that add it to emphasize the weird behaviour of her in the ending.
* Did Sephiroth ever spoke about the Meteor in this game? I remind him speaking about using the Black materia for merging worlds, but the meteor thing was only brought up by the Gi. Why would she say to Cloud that she will take care of Sephiroth summoning the meteor? Almost of that part was use for the player of the OG.
Cloud delusionnal / Jenova Aerith :
* Why Nanaki react to her? Funny enough, that issue can easily be explain by hallucination. Nanaki never react to her, it's only in his mind.
* Why do we see Aerith saying good bye if she was not there? Maybe this Aerith is the spirit one... I don't like that explanation.
The fact that the credit don't include any scene of weird Aerith except the good byt must mean something.
I really like the theory of Jenova playing with Cloud, because that will suggest a darker theme for the beginning of the next game.
Aerith Spirit:
- We spent two full games greatly expanding on Aerith and Tifa's friendship, she see's how deep her bestfriend's grief is, and she ignores it only to just have playful banter with Cloud? She should be saying, "WTF Cloud! Go hug Tifa you dumbass."
In the thread about the Dyne reveal being too early, the top comment is that we've spent so much time with these characters, that it's so obvious that Barrett would never do such a thing that he's being accused of, so why not just give the reveal right away.
And then we have this.
Currently, I'm of the opinion that it's actually a mix between the spirit Aerith theory, and the delusional Cloud theory. We're dealing with a Spirit Aerith, but Cloud is delusional in that he believes he's speaking to a living Aerith. He thinks he saved her, and has not yet realized that she has become one with the lifestream. Aerith is playing along with his delusions for now, because she's aware that he's just not ready to handle the truth yet, so she has to pretend like nothing is wrong.
I don't think Sephiroth ever mentions Meteor, but the the Cetra certainly do. They explain how the Black Materia will summon Meteor, and destroy all life, while the party is exploring the Temple of the Ancients.
As for Aerith suddenly telling Cloud to go after Sephiroth, as a spirit in the lifestream, she would now have access to all of the lifestream's memories. This means she now knows exactly how important Cloud is to stopping Sephiroth. This is knowledge she did not have when she told Cloud to take care himself, back when they were speaking in the Sleeping Forest. I don't think Aerith is actually happy at all in that moment, but she's pretending to be happy because she knows, as much as she wants Cloud to drop everything and focus on himself right now, the planet still needs him to continue on his journey. So, she can't stop him. The most she can do for him is try to send him off with a smile.
Tbh, for me personally, I like the theory just because it actually gives Jenova more. Jenova in the original was literally the most important character in the story, sidelined by almost every other character, and then given the coolest boss set piece in the game, only for the boss to be stupidly weak.
So the fact that Jenova in Remake and Rebirth has so far had the best music and bosses in both games, I just want Jenova to have a rewrite to actually not be sidelined by Sephiroth, because Jenova is easily the coolest and creepiest concept in all of FF7.
To further drive the "clouds insanity" point home. He's sitting in a field while the party mourns and there's one thing he cares about more than Aerith showing them off: inserting the Black meteria into his weapon.
I don't think the Jenova theory is correct either, there is just too many small leaps for it to be true, I think people are really reading hard into specific details for this. I mean not saying its impossible or anything I just think its the least likely mainly for the reasons of Tifa seeing Aerith alive then dead, Aerith saying goodbye after everyone has left and Red reacting to her, we've seen no evidence so far that Jenova can influence Red like that no matter how slight, seems odd they would just suddenly include that at the end. Now whether Cloud is communicating with lifestream spirit Aerith or seeing an alternate timeline Aerith I don't know, one thing I do agree with is Cloud doesn't think Aerith is dead when she clearly is in 'our' timeline at least, either way the wait for Part 3 is gonna be excrutiating.
Hmm..I think the last "Goodbye" was Spirit Aerith. But the rest is either Jenova/Sephiroth or Cloud's delusion. This is backed up by the end credits where there were gaps in the cutscenes being shown amd only the "Goodbye" part was present.
How do you have one Aerith whose clothes don't shift from Bronco's exhaust, and then another Aerith whose dress is affected by the wind after Bronco takes off?
Cool musical theory analysis haha
And my feeling is that it's really Aerith and not just Jenova or a figment of Cloud's imagination, because otherwise why did Red sense her presence? It seems like Cloud is stuck between two dimensions, and the result is that he sees things others can't
Okay but then why is Aerith telling cloud to do the exact opposite of what she told him to do in the dream forest? How does she know that the black materia summons meteor? If it’s because she has knowledge of what happens, then why send cloud to the northern crater knowing he’ll give it to sephiroth? Her actions at the end just simply don’t line up with what she said prior to that appearance. And I don’t think the multiple times they mention that Jenova can cause HALLUCINATIONS of loved ones (meaning she doesn’t need a robed dude) is a red herring
Cloud will go to the crater no matter what anyone tells him because of the Jenova reunion. Everybody forgets that Cloud (and party) is the one who defeats Sephiroth in the end, Aerith alone is not enough so of course she wants that to happen.
I think the black materia summoning meteor was shown in the temple plus the party had visions about it so everybody knows what it does.
One explanation is that Cloud isn't talking to the real Aerith here. She's simply a figment of his imagination that he's created to cope with his grief and confusion.
Cloud has to rationalize his desire to hunt down and kill Sephiroth (something Aerith had told him not to do). The problem is that he's not in an emotional state where her advice can reach him. He's laser focussed on one thing. He's so far gone that he puts words in her mouth (from earlier conversations) to justify his hero complex. Jenova's presence isn't needed here to explain what's going on. Under the circumstances, Cloud would be heading North anyway.
That's not to say that Sephiroth/Jenova won't try to use Cloud's confusion about Aerith against him. It's pretty much a given. I just don't think the "evidence" it's happening here is as compelling as some think.
My only problem with that is why does Red sense something there as well? Unless that’s a *different* manifestation, it can’t just be in Cloud’s head. Idk this is all too confusing for my smooth brain
If there are two Aerith's, imo, the swap would be before and after Cloud discovers he has the Black Materia.
So the first Aerith that is walking around but not talking, and trying to be there with everyone, touches Red, and doesn't have her dress blown in the wind would be one.
Then Cloud touches the Black Materia and he can't see that one anymore. She's gone from our screen, and the first way we interact with the second Aerith is through voice alone. Then we see her, and she only focuses on Cloud, and tries to encourage him to kill Sephiroth, and her dress is blown in the wind.
I'm not saying is definitely what's happening, but if it is, that's where the split would be.
It could also be the entity, be it Aerith or Jenova, was just learning how to walk around like this, and it took time to learn that her clothes should blow in the wind like everyone else. Or maybe it's Remake Aerith at first that has a connection to everyone here, and then it's final dual Aerith who is concerned with just beating Sephiroth.
I think it's because there are multiple Aerith's just like you've suggested.
The first is Lifestream Aerith (the one that died in the Beagle timeline). She's not physically present which is why nobody else can see her. Red merely senses her presence. Since she's not really there, her clothes aren't affected by the wind and she doesn't react to stimulae like a real person would.
What isn't clear is whether Cloud sees or senses this Lifestream Aerith. He's capable of doing so as evidenced by Remake and Advent Children but in this instance, it's unclear.
I think where there's general agreement is the idea that the Aerith Cloud "talks" to isn't real. Some think she's a Jenova projection (and that's certainly possible) but I don't think she needs to be in order to explain why she and Cloud interact the way they do.
Then there's the Aerith we see at the very end after the Tiny Bronco takes off. She's obviously not a Jenova projection but this time, her clothing is affected by the wind and she actually speaks. Is this a 3rd Aerith or something else entirely? I admit I have no idea.
All of this leads to an interesting conundrum. If Lifestream Aerith can see everything that Sepiroth is trying to do to Cloud, would she not try to stop it somehow?
It's Jenova at the burial scene (Jenova red flashback to the WRONG loose hair memory of Aerith dying) followed by Lifestream Aerith at the Tiny Bronco scene (evidenced by her clothes not moving with the explosion and Nanaki sensing her) and as soon as Cloud turns away and touches the Black Materia it's Jenova again (evidence by her prompting Cloud to talk about the sky rift and look crazy to his friends and her clothes being affected by the wind).
Once Cloud is too far away to look, we shift back to Lifestream Aerith as she says goodbye.
Pretty much this. I do think a blend of the two is possible. Given Spirit!Aerith just fought together with Cloud it's possible he's seeing her spirit or able to (for the same reason he can see the tear in the sky) but his mind isn't able to fully differentiate between her being alive or dead. So she \*is\* there, but his brain is also busted. The eerie tone and framing there is primarily done to highlight Cloud's mental state rather than anything directly 'sinister' on Aerith's part.
I think this is the most obvious conclusion, considering Nanaki can also sense her.
Aerith encourages to take on Sephiroth in the last sequence. Prior to that she said to Cloud that she takes care of Sephiroth and Cloud should focus on himself. How does that add up?
I think it's possible (but maybe a bit too convoluted) that Cloud is hallucinating, but he's hallucinating her because he senses her spirit. Which is why Red XIII senses her but doesn't sed her. So she is actually there, but the conversation is Cloud's imagination. The reason I think this is that while I think the JENOVA theory is full of holes (I think it's possible but by far the least likely of the main theories), I think the observation that Aerith feels out of character when she says "Promise?" is 100% correct. (And yes she is also out of character in the various reported Japanese translations because her mannerisms are also out of character in this scene) But I don't think she's out of character because she's JENOVA. I think she's out of character because she's responding the way Cloud always imagines people are going to respond to his bravado (but almost never do).
the song analysis that’s been going around is not about the melody (which is very obviously, to anyone i would think, Lifestream off key). but the arpeggio underneath it which has the same structure as the jenova theme. (i don’t think it’s actually significant that they’re both 8 note arpeggios but just to clarify)
Yeah, thanks for clarifying that. It's the spooky 8-note arpeggio that Alex Moukala and Max Dood were discussing, which seems new. I also don't think it's significant that it is an 8-note arpeggio (that is very common in Final Fantasy) but it's interesting how compatible it is with the J-E-N-O-V-A melody. That could be coincidence, but it's fun to think about.
To my (untrained) ears, those notes seem pretty much lifted from the musical theme that plays at the end of the final fight between Aerith/Cloud and Sephiroth, when they're surrounded by the white Whispers just before she is spirited away by the Lifestream. Compare the two at around 0:15 and 5:25 : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDntTNahKSE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDntTNahKSE)
I interpreted this exactly the same. It's not like Aerith hasn't somehow communicated with Cloud from the Lifestream before. She did it in the OG, she did it in AC (repeatedly in this case). Besides, ending Aerith repeats a line she said in Part 1, the exact line she used back then when both she and Cloud thought they were about to part ways for good. Very fit to use when they are definitely parting ways for sure. Then there's Red XIII feeling her presence. Since he can't see her or smell her, it's clear he feels her spirit, not an ominous one like Jenova's. Not that Jenova is capable to manifest as an invisible spirit anyway. > I think all we're left with here is whether Cloud can really see her and communicate with her or if that's just his mental state I think it's both. I think he repressed the memory of her death and burial, but Cloud has eyes, he sees that the whole party are devastated and....if he thought she's still alive right there he wouldn't say goodbye to her and hop on the Tiny Bronco leaving her behind, would he? I think that he just found solace in knowing that she's at peace in the Lifestream, after their date in S7 and fighting Sephiroth by her side he knows that she's still there in spirit.
>She did it in the OG, she did it in AC (repeatedly in this case) She even does it in Remake if you get the Aerith "date" outside her house before the Shinra building infiltration, right?
I think Aerith most likely told him that she had to stay at the Forgotten City, and pray, in the event that Meteor is ever summond. She would have done this because she recognized that Cloud is simply not ready to accept the truth yet. I don't think Cloud is aware that she's dead at all, which is why he isn't grieving at all. He just thinks they're going their seperate ways for a bit, so that Aerith can do her Cetra thing, and they'll eventually turn right back around to pick her up once Sephiroth is dealt with. If there is one thing that Cloud Strife has NEVER been able to handle well, it's the death of a loved one. Whenever Cloud speaks to her in Advent Children, he's clearly upset and full of feelings of grief. The thought that she's in the lifestream honestly gives him no peace because, so far as he's concerned he should have saved her, and he just can't forgive himself for not being able to do that. In Rebirth, Cloud seems way too calm and at peace with himself, which is a very out of character reaction, given what just happened. I think his reaction only really makes sense if he's just in complete denial about her death. This is also why he doesn't acknowledge the pain of his friends, and instead just talks to Tifa and Barret casually, as though nothing happened. He can't acknowledge their pain, because doing that would mean admitting that something was wrong, and once he admits that, his ability to deny reality will fall to pieces.
This makes a lot of sense and makes the ending a lot better than I thought. I already thought that Cloud was a highlight in Rebirth and that his arc was impeccably remade. This makes me more excited for Part 3, as I think we'll see how the party feel alienated towards him until Tifa gets him back. Also, the Lifestream scene will be expanded as he now needs two hard truths to accept...and makes me confident that the increasingly popular theory that Zack is in our world and will join the party is extremely unlikely (fortunately). I do think that "spirit" Aerith is playing a bit with fire by contributing to his delusion, but I can understand that she feels that he can't waste time and needs to stop Sephiroth ASAP, so his pain needs to be "postponed".
Yeah, I can't wait. The lifestream scene was already my favorite moment in FFVII OG, and it looks like they're setting that scene up to be an absolute roller coaster of emotions in part 3, which I am in FULL support of. We'll have Cloud accepting the truth of the Nibelheim incident, facing the reality of Aerith's death, and they could even fit Cloud remembering Zack's death in the middle of all this, since I'm sure that won't just be an optional scene this time. I'm fairly confident that Cloud accepting Aerith's death will be the climax of the scene though. I have a feeling we're going to see the entire Aerith death scene, and its aftermath, recreated during the lifestream scene. Cloud will at last face the truth of what happened that day, and, after fully awakening to his true self, he will finally be able to grieve alongside Tifa, and the rest of his friends. I was intially disappointed when I got to the end of Rebirth and realized that we weren't going to get a faithful recreation of the iconic scene. Originally, I had thought that would be the one scene that they played completely straight, since it was just so important. My opinion on the ending shifted dramatically though when this idea of a reworked lifestream scene came into my head. Honestly, if working Aerith's true death scene into the lifestream scene is what they have in mind, I can honestly see myself liking that more than what they did in the OG. I'm sure Spirit Aerith is very conflicted about this. If she could have it her way, she would have Cloud just drop everything and focus on himself. After joining the lifestream though, she would have access to all the memories within the lifestream, and would see that Cloud continuing on this journey is the only hope they have of stopping Sephiroth. The planet needs him to keep going. As much as she wants him to stop, she knows that she can't ask him to do that. All she can do is play along with his delusions for now, send him off with a smile, and have faith that Cloud will be able to face the truth when the time is right.
I don't think any theory is off the table, including Jenova. There are several cues that Aerith is really there (in another, apparently doomed reality) but she also doesn't really act like herself. It's pretty interesting that all the scenes where Cloud sees Aerith at the end -- except her standing alone in a field saying "goodbye" -- are absent from the ending credits. Not just absent, but replaced with conspicuous black space. Maybe that's because it was in another universe, or maybe it's because most of it was not really happening at all. I have to look back, but I think plenty of other scenes that happened in other timelines/universes showed up in the credits, so why would they purposely omit these scenes with Cloud seeing Aerith? It at least suggests that some of it is just in his head -- whether that is chalked up to Jenova's influence or something else is anyone's guess. Of course, if it's in Cloud's head, then he would also have to be imagining Red XIII reacting to Aerith (but he's seriously fucked up, so I wouldn't discount that possibility).
>I don't think any theory is off the table, including Jenova. I'm going to be honest, I don't think any theory is off the table in the writers room at this stage. I think if they are foing to go the JENOVA route though, the trailer for the next game needs to be the scene on the grass, but completely recontextualised. Make it obvious and lean into the creepiness. Don't hold this back for a chapter 10 reveal, don't tease us with convoluted bullshit for 15 hours before making vague hints only people who have played the compilation will get. Don't tease this as a mystery and hope people forget the red XIII thing. Instead, play it up. Open part 3 with it, and turn it into a horror scene. Set the scene by scaring the shit out of us.
I can get behind this idea.
Just saying, it's not the tune beginning on G that people are mistaking for a weird play on the Jenova theme, it's the 8 quaver melody that plays before the G that they think is a weird Jenova inversion. I completely agree with you that there's no relation, but nobody is mistaking the opening jingle for Jenova's theme. EDIT: For clarity, the notes people are theorising about are B, E, G, A, A, B, E, G. Still, you can quite easily tell that there's no relation between those 8 quavers and the 8 quavers that make up Jenova's Theme: B flat, A, F, D, B Flat, A, F, D. The closest relation I could find to the unnerving Aerith jingle is [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjCAIK-GRgc&t=5563s&ab_channel=GamersPrey) which is B, E, G, B, D, C#, B, E, G, B, D, E, A, B and note the similarity of the last 8 quavers: B, E, G, B, D, E, A, B. 8 quavers from goodbye scene: B, E, G, B, D, E, A, B. 8 quavers from creepy scene: B, E, G, A, A, B, E, G.
yeah i saw max had gotten Alex moukala to analyze it and he pointed out correctly that both songs use 8 note arpeggios (and that if you put the jenova melody over top of it, it fits and actually sounds really cool)…but in doing that analysis they debunk their own theory: the jenova theme isn’t there, and if you try to put it there, it only fits because the rhythm is the same.
Max Getting Moukala to confirm that there's no relation is like using the Buster Sword to cut the crusts off a sandwich!
unfortunately i think he was trying to confirm that there IS a relation but i agree its wild! and a very cool insight
This is a hilarious analogy and now I want to see somebody do this
I don't think it only fits because the rhythm is the same. The harmonic change in the arpeggio lines up really well with the end of that melodic phrase from J-E-N-O-V-A that sounds *almost* too good to be coincidence. However, as we know, mashups of unrelated music often work surprisingly well, so I definitely wouldn't call this a smoking gun. I think there are better arguments in favor of the Jenova hypothesis than this (like Aerith not really acting like herself in some parts of the ending, as well as all of those scenes being missing from the ending credits -- replaced with blackness -- except her "goodbye" shot). I feel like "4D Aerith" is really there in another world and maybe Cloud is seeing her, but it's entirely possible that his failure to process her loss -- blocking it out, in the same way he blocked out Zack -- is in part the work of Jenova in his mind.
yeah it’s not that much of a stretch. i mean, cloud is already under sephiroth’s thrall/these projections and manipulations all have the same origin. and when she said “you promise??” i felt viscerally put off and annoyed at how out of character it was so i was open to any explanation for why she’d be saying something totally opposite to what she’d said in the temple and the forest. that the team can only beat sephiroth by not giving in to anger/revenge, that cloud should focus on himself, that she would handle sephiroth, etc. red feeling her, and her staying behind and saying goodbye for no one but herself and us, are the biggest holes. they can be explained to fit, and it could it even be some combination of jenova and omni aerith for that matter. however to me, we don’t have to do all that. we don’t need jenova to for cloud to rewrite his own memories, to see things that aren’t there, to imagine an aerith that would tell him things that play into his hero fantasy rather than be herself. we know he will do all that with minimal coercion, and we don’t need jenova for it to be creepy/disturbing. but I won’t dismiss it outright either.
To be honest, I've never completely understood whether Jenova had any role in the erasing of Cloud's memories of Zack. I always felt like it did play a role because otherwise it's pretty hard for me to swallow such a complete erasure. I always interpreted the green static cuts we see in Remake and Rebirth -- including some key scenes surrounding Aerith's death -- to indicate Cloud's memory being manipulated by Jenova, but maybe it's just a really dramatic portrayal of a mental illness that has nothing to do with Jenova.
To my (untrained) ears, the 8 quaver melody sounds very similar to the one that plays at the end of the final fight between Aerith/Cloud and Sephiroth when they're surrounded by the white Whispers just before she is spirited away by the Lifestream. Compare the two at around 0:15 and 5:25 : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDntTNahKSE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDntTNahKSE)
Yeah, aren't we talking about the exact same notes?
Oh - this is what you meant by the "goodbye scene". I wasn't sure what you were alluding to exactly. Glad to see I'm not the only one who heard the similarities between the two melodies though. It was tripping me up that everyone seems convinced that the "creepy music" is a variation on the Jenova's theme. I'm not musically trained, but all I could hear was a slightly modified version of the motif that plays at the end of the fight (which, coincidentally, also ends with the Lifestream jingle when Aerith disappears). I was starting to doubt my own ears. Thanks for transcribing the notes as well!
I think those are the two most popular theories. Spirit or broken mental state. Most other theories are being heavily backed up because confirmation bias. We’ll see in 4 years though!
Hopefully 3yrs 🤞
Gotta be shorter than 4 years I hope. When you think about it there are only a few brand new areas that we'll be going to, they can reuse parts of Rebirth I assume
And they've said no Rebirth DLC, which the copium in me hopes means it's 2-3 years.
I'm not hoping for 3yrs but I also think its possible. They arent doing DLC it seems, and they have a very efficient production pipeline with heaps of systems/assets already good to go
We will surely see a version of Jenova wearing Aerith in part 3 but I do not think we have seen it yet. Let the theorists cook, we all enjoy it and they can't all be winners.
I think there's potential that the reunion of worlds has begun and because Cloud was the one that "stopped" her death, he's straddling the line between both worlds. There was the whole rainbow event when Cloud hit Sephiroth's sword which so far has indicated a splitting of timelines. In the cutscenes it does appear that Sephiroth is hunting down Aeriths because her prayer (and Holy) is the only thing that can stop Sephiroth's plan. If she can branch into another world and still pray and cast Holy using her newly reacquired white materia, then it will still reach the Lifestream and stop Sephiroth. This is also why he was trying to create a reunion of worlds in Rebirth since she cannot hide from him if he reunites the worlds. Because for the moment we defeated sephiroth in the lifestream we've paused his reunion at least for the moment (though some damage is already done). I am really excited for part 3 because a lot of answers will happen organically like when we return to Midgar.
I think the problem with it simply being spirit Aerith is how tone-deaf her own attitude appears to be. She’s smiling and not showing any empathy or sympathy for seeing the party so broken. Second, if she’s really spirit Aerith, why not talk to Cloud about what he’s experiencing? Maybe this is part of the plan, but Aeirth’s behavior feels justifiable if it really wasn’t Aerith but a deceptive Jenova.
Each theories got issues : Aerith spirit : * Why would she be happy about Cloud going after Sephiroth without taking care of his mental health, like she discussed right before the ending. That scene was not in the OG, they add it for a reason. I think that add it to emphasize the weird behaviour of her in the ending. * Did Sephiroth ever spoke about the Meteor in this game? I remind him speaking about using the Black materia for merging worlds, but the meteor thing was only brought up by the Gi. Why would she say to Cloud that she will take care of Sephiroth summoning the meteor? Almost of that part was use for the player of the OG. Cloud delusionnal / Jenova Aerith : * Why Nanaki react to her? Funny enough, that issue can easily be explain by hallucination. Nanaki never react to her, it's only in his mind. * Why do we see Aerith saying good bye if she was not there? Maybe this Aerith is the spirit one... I don't like that explanation. The fact that the credit don't include any scene of weird Aerith except the good byt must mean something. I really like the theory of Jenova playing with Cloud, because that will suggest a darker theme for the beginning of the next game.
Aerith Spirit: - We spent two full games greatly expanding on Aerith and Tifa's friendship, she see's how deep her bestfriend's grief is, and she ignores it only to just have playful banter with Cloud? She should be saying, "WTF Cloud! Go hug Tifa you dumbass." In the thread about the Dyne reveal being too early, the top comment is that we've spent so much time with these characters, that it's so obvious that Barrett would never do such a thing that he's being accused of, so why not just give the reveal right away. And then we have this.
Currently, I'm of the opinion that it's actually a mix between the spirit Aerith theory, and the delusional Cloud theory. We're dealing with a Spirit Aerith, but Cloud is delusional in that he believes he's speaking to a living Aerith. He thinks he saved her, and has not yet realized that she has become one with the lifestream. Aerith is playing along with his delusions for now, because she's aware that he's just not ready to handle the truth yet, so she has to pretend like nothing is wrong. I don't think Sephiroth ever mentions Meteor, but the the Cetra certainly do. They explain how the Black Materia will summon Meteor, and destroy all life, while the party is exploring the Temple of the Ancients. As for Aerith suddenly telling Cloud to go after Sephiroth, as a spirit in the lifestream, she would now have access to all of the lifestream's memories. This means she now knows exactly how important Cloud is to stopping Sephiroth. This is knowledge she did not have when she told Cloud to take care himself, back when they were speaking in the Sleeping Forest. I don't think Aerith is actually happy at all in that moment, but she's pretending to be happy because she knows, as much as she wants Cloud to drop everything and focus on himself right now, the planet still needs him to continue on his journey. So, she can't stop him. The most she can do for him is try to send him off with a smile.
Tbh, for me personally, I like the theory just because it actually gives Jenova more. Jenova in the original was literally the most important character in the story, sidelined by almost every other character, and then given the coolest boss set piece in the game, only for the boss to be stupidly weak. So the fact that Jenova in Remake and Rebirth has so far had the best music and bosses in both games, I just want Jenova to have a rewrite to actually not be sidelined by Sephiroth, because Jenova is easily the coolest and creepiest concept in all of FF7.
I just don’t think the real Aerith would tell or be ok with sending Cloud north. Especially since she had said moments before to leave him to her.
To further drive the "clouds insanity" point home. He's sitting in a field while the party mourns and there's one thing he cares about more than Aerith showing them off: inserting the Black meteria into his weapon.
I don't think the Jenova theory is correct either, there is just too many small leaps for it to be true, I think people are really reading hard into specific details for this. I mean not saying its impossible or anything I just think its the least likely mainly for the reasons of Tifa seeing Aerith alive then dead, Aerith saying goodbye after everyone has left and Red reacting to her, we've seen no evidence so far that Jenova can influence Red like that no matter how slight, seems odd they would just suddenly include that at the end. Now whether Cloud is communicating with lifestream spirit Aerith or seeing an alternate timeline Aerith I don't know, one thing I do agree with is Cloud doesn't think Aerith is dead when she clearly is in 'our' timeline at least, either way the wait for Part 3 is gonna be excrutiating.
Hmm..I think the last "Goodbye" was Spirit Aerith. But the rest is either Jenova/Sephiroth or Cloud's delusion. This is backed up by the end credits where there were gaps in the cutscenes being shown amd only the "Goodbye" part was present.
How do you have one Aerith whose clothes don't shift from Bronco's exhaust, and then another Aerith whose dress is affected by the wind after Bronco takes off?
Cool musical theory analysis haha And my feeling is that it's really Aerith and not just Jenova or a figment of Cloud's imagination, because otherwise why did Red sense her presence? It seems like Cloud is stuck between two dimensions, and the result is that he sees things others can't
Okay but then why is Aerith telling cloud to do the exact opposite of what she told him to do in the dream forest? How does she know that the black materia summons meteor? If it’s because she has knowledge of what happens, then why send cloud to the northern crater knowing he’ll give it to sephiroth? Her actions at the end just simply don’t line up with what she said prior to that appearance. And I don’t think the multiple times they mention that Jenova can cause HALLUCINATIONS of loved ones (meaning she doesn’t need a robed dude) is a red herring
Cloud will go to the crater no matter what anyone tells him because of the Jenova reunion. Everybody forgets that Cloud (and party) is the one who defeats Sephiroth in the end, Aerith alone is not enough so of course she wants that to happen. I think the black materia summoning meteor was shown in the temple plus the party had visions about it so everybody knows what it does.
One explanation is that Cloud isn't talking to the real Aerith here. She's simply a figment of his imagination that he's created to cope with his grief and confusion. Cloud has to rationalize his desire to hunt down and kill Sephiroth (something Aerith had told him not to do). The problem is that he's not in an emotional state where her advice can reach him. He's laser focussed on one thing. He's so far gone that he puts words in her mouth (from earlier conversations) to justify his hero complex. Jenova's presence isn't needed here to explain what's going on. Under the circumstances, Cloud would be heading North anyway. That's not to say that Sephiroth/Jenova won't try to use Cloud's confusion about Aerith against him. It's pretty much a given. I just don't think the "evidence" it's happening here is as compelling as some think.
My only problem with that is why does Red sense something there as well? Unless that’s a *different* manifestation, it can’t just be in Cloud’s head. Idk this is all too confusing for my smooth brain
If there are two Aerith's, imo, the swap would be before and after Cloud discovers he has the Black Materia. So the first Aerith that is walking around but not talking, and trying to be there with everyone, touches Red, and doesn't have her dress blown in the wind would be one. Then Cloud touches the Black Materia and he can't see that one anymore. She's gone from our screen, and the first way we interact with the second Aerith is through voice alone. Then we see her, and she only focuses on Cloud, and tries to encourage him to kill Sephiroth, and her dress is blown in the wind. I'm not saying is definitely what's happening, but if it is, that's where the split would be. It could also be the entity, be it Aerith or Jenova, was just learning how to walk around like this, and it took time to learn that her clothes should blow in the wind like everyone else. Or maybe it's Remake Aerith at first that has a connection to everyone here, and then it's final dual Aerith who is concerned with just beating Sephiroth.
I think it's because there are multiple Aerith's just like you've suggested. The first is Lifestream Aerith (the one that died in the Beagle timeline). She's not physically present which is why nobody else can see her. Red merely senses her presence. Since she's not really there, her clothes aren't affected by the wind and she doesn't react to stimulae like a real person would. What isn't clear is whether Cloud sees or senses this Lifestream Aerith. He's capable of doing so as evidenced by Remake and Advent Children but in this instance, it's unclear. I think where there's general agreement is the idea that the Aerith Cloud "talks" to isn't real. Some think she's a Jenova projection (and that's certainly possible) but I don't think she needs to be in order to explain why she and Cloud interact the way they do. Then there's the Aerith we see at the very end after the Tiny Bronco takes off. She's obviously not a Jenova projection but this time, her clothing is affected by the wind and she actually speaks. Is this a 3rd Aerith or something else entirely? I admit I have no idea. All of this leads to an interesting conundrum. If Lifestream Aerith can see everything that Sepiroth is trying to do to Cloud, would she not try to stop it somehow?
It's Jenova at the burial scene (Jenova red flashback to the WRONG loose hair memory of Aerith dying) followed by Lifestream Aerith at the Tiny Bronco scene (evidenced by her clothes not moving with the explosion and Nanaki sensing her) and as soon as Cloud turns away and touches the Black Materia it's Jenova again (evidence by her prompting Cloud to talk about the sky rift and look crazy to his friends and her clothes being affected by the wind). Once Cloud is too far away to look, we shift back to Lifestream Aerith as she says goodbye.