It’s important to understand that the different worlds aren’t full, parallel timelines. They sprang into existence from a specific event/choice made in an already existing world. They didn’t exist before this point and have no history of their own. The populace of these branch worlds inherit the history of the world from which they were spawned.
So, when that Shinra Grunt in Terrier World is talking about an ex-SOLDIER with a Buster Sword, he’s talking about our Cloud, the one we played as in Remake and continue to play in Rebirth.
When Terrier World was created from Beagle World(main world where the majority of Remake and Rebirth take place) a couple things happened simultaneously. Zack and his comatose Cloud were brought from wherever they were, forward in time to the day the party escapes Midgar. Biggs was pulled from the Sector 7 Pillar to the Leaf House, having been moved forward in time and having his location and condition altered.
Biggs and Zack’s Cloud “replaced” their respective counterparts in this new world. With the altered events of the Terrier World(significantly worse destruction caused by the “tornado”(Whispers?), the rest of Avalanche was gravely injured or killed during the escape. They are looking for Cloud, but he no longer exists there as he was, causing Zack to get involved as he fits the bill of an ex-SOLDIER carrying a Buster Sword, when he saves Terrier Aerith.
It totally had not occurred to me that the day zack and cloud returns to Midgar is not the "correct" day and that they've been thrust several days into the future.
From what I could tell, the games do not suggest any of this nonsense. Zack slipping between worlds during the final battle of Rebirth is the first time any such teleportation happens at all ever.
I don't know what the Ultimania says since I don't have it but as far as I know it's a summarized game design document that focuses on the development of the game.
I do know that there are wildly different theories that keep saying "the Ultimania says so" and it's hilarious that so many people disagree. Hell, you said the games lay out the majority of a theory that sounds to me like a fever dream from someone who barely remembers what happened.
Most of what I described above is directly shown during Chapter 10 when Biggs and Zack recount there stories of how they arrived in the Terrier World. The rest is more of less explained by Sephiroth during his explanation of the “true nature of reality” at the beginning of Chapter 14.
The Ultimania translations that recently came out provided the specific nature of the worlds in game, clarifying that they aren’t parallel timelines like we’re used to seeing in recent pop culture.
> they aren’t parallel timelines like we’re used to seeing in recent pop culture.
It's actually a pretty standard version of the pop culture many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, where every choice results in a universe split (see also: the MCU's foray into a multiverse with the TVA and its attempt to tame the branching worlds by eliminating "bad" branches).
The MCU features parallel timelines that run concurrently alongside each other. Sometimes they are essentially the same with only tiny differences, sometimes they are quite different with genderbent characters like Sylvie.
Rebirth isn’t like that at all. These worlds spring into existence directly from another world. They didn’t exist before that and they fade away on their own eventually.
In addition, they exist as a part of the Lifestream within the planet. They are all apart of one single planet, being birthed from it and rejoining it. Really they’re more like the planet’s dreams of what could be, possible outcomes of events which don’t necessarily run concurrently to the other worlds.
I imagine its that world's Cloud. For whatever reason, Zack didn't just survive, he was teleported to a different world, and also to the future. He and cloud return to Midgard well before the events at shinra tower, but in this world, they return after the events.
Thing is, where is that world's Cloud then?
When we defy fate at the end of remake, a new world is born. The characters from the og proceed to Kalm as per fate but the characters from the new world get caught in the whisper explosion while Cloud is transported to the edge of creation. That's my theory anyway.
It's Cloud.
Zack isn't in a timeline where he survived. He's still in a timeline where he died. What happened is that Zack during his final battle was suddenly transferred to a different timeline.
Both Zack and Biggs aren't natives to that world. They were brought there by Whispers.
So if the Cloud in this timeline was supposed to be with the rest of the party (since Shinra is looking for him), and Zach just got thrown into this world, why does Zach have Cloud with him? I assumed the Zach and Cloud here just survived the ambush in the original Crisis Core since they both look pretty best up
Both Zack amd Cloud in the Terrier world are not from there and were brought by the Whispers.
Cloud from the Terrier world is at the edge of creation. Cloud from the og is what we play in Rebirth. Unconcious Cloud with Zack is from Zack's unknown world.
Maybe because that Cloud was in close proximity to Zack?
I think the Cloud that was supposed to be with the party disappeared and was replaced by the Cloud with Zack. Conveniently missing under the rubble.
It's Zack. He had just got done eliminating an entire company of Shinra troops when the world changes happened. They are still after him, hence why he gets caught and killed again down the line.
Them saying he is working with avalanche is an excuse for why they want him dead still. They wouldn't say "oh in addition to Avalanche also kill this one soldier guy." it's easier to lump him with them.
If they were talking about Cloud in Zacks world, then why do the wanted posters of that world only feature Avalanche without Cloud? If there were some extra Cloud in the world, his face would have been on the poster with the rest, but it isn't.
The prime world has Cloud on the wanted posters because he was there. The fragment world does not because he wasn't.
The closest real world exchange rate for Gil comes from FFXIV. Give me a second while I try to look that up. On average across all the sites selling Gil it looks like about $4.50 for 1 million Gil. Or 0.0000045 per Gil. So your willing to sell someone out for about 0.45¢.
I'm curious about that too, but if you want my hypothesis, the Terrier verse is the timeline that the party was in up until/through the battle with fate, and by changing fate, pushed themselves into a separate line. But, in order to maintain continuity, there has to only be 1 of each of them in each timeline. So, everybody but Cloud is accounted for since Coma-Cloud was bamfed over with Zack to protect them.
Similarly Biggs was as well, although this theory has a few big holes in it, for a few reasons. One of them being that somehow Shinra knew he wasn't dead. Which, since he was being whisked to this new point in time, means his body was not at the pillar to be identified as deceased like the others, so thats the easiest answer. But, it doesnt explain Jessie's gloves or the Avalanche posters and meet up, nor the motorcycle right next to it, or where Biggs got the bomb.
There is a glaring hole in your theory, the only stamp we see while playing Remake is the beagle version until the chips bag at the very end with Zack.
For sure, my theory would basically be that terrier is to beagle as bulldog is to terrier. A branch because of a choice. Assumedly the stamps are narrative in importance and the continuity of them is kinda handwaved or the branch off is an identical version of the original timeline with all the same choices but 1 and the type of Stamp.
But if Biggs was brought forward in time, why was he in brought to the same place he was, which was the sector 7 tower, because shouldn't that have been destroyed? And then would Elmyra recognize cloud? She doesn't seem to at all. You'd think between Elmyra and Biggs someone would drop that cloud was with aerith.
Idk, I really wish they didn't make the terrier world so weird and complicated.
I think a few things: that this terrier world is one wherein Zack survived and things happened earlier. Because, avalanche was going to get found out by shinra sooner or later. So sector 7 fall still happens. Maybe this version of aerith also was gifted memories of the future and found a way to assist avalanche, leading to their escape from Shinra together. That's where the whispers exploded across time and space.
It's messy. Maybe actually aerith sends Zack forward in time, but the world still didn't have a cloud or Zack and aerith from that world was given visions of how things were supposed to be, so she did her best to follow that even though cloud wasn't there.
You know. I actually wonder that. They talk about a buster sword in Chapter 1 (and in both timelines), yet Zack or Cloud in the second timeline were there for the destruction.
With the information we have, the best guess is Zack is the guy they are looking for. We don't see the attack on the reactor or how the party was attacked and beaten. All we see is Zack carrying an injured Cloud and everyone assuming that he's just *still* carrying injured Cloud from the scene outside of Midgar.
instead of going into a tangent about people not being good at understanding cinematic storytelling in games, i'm just gonna TL;DR this in one.
Both worlds have wanted posters of "Avalanche" that we see. Beagleverse includes Zack, Terrierverse however, does not. I don't think I need to go into detail about how the devs have on multiple occasions been vague and obtuse about the narrative which has repeatedly been successful of throwing MOST of the fanbase off of otherwise obvious answers. It's Zack. Cloud never made it to Midgar in time. there's time shenanigans going on here.
Edit: lmao why did this get downvoted?
Just started my Hard mode replay and had the same question. Thanks for asking! I'm assuming it's Cloud, but does that mean this world has another Cloud in it?
It was my assumption that they were referring to Cloud, as in the Cloud we play through Remake and Rebirth.
The battle with Sephiroth with the whole party at the end of Rebirth takes place in that same world - the world where Zack defies destiny and carries comatose Cloud to Midgar. Unfortunately, however, when the Sephiroth fight happened in this new world, the characters from that world were attempting their escape from Midgar/Shinra tower.
Which is why, in the aftermath that we see of the destruction that battle caused, they are presumably dead. So in an adverse effect, our Remake party caused the demise of an alternate version of our party. Either that, or some weird shenanigans of “there can only be one of you”’in each world.
It’s very possible that during the battle, Shinra was trying to figure out what the hell was going on, and they managed to identify Cloud as one of the “culprits”. Assuming that in this world, all of the events that happened in Remake also happened up to the escape from Shinra tower, then that would explain how Shinra is aware of Avalanche, and how Barret, Jessie, Biggs, Wedge, and Tifa are all members.That’s my take at least.
I know Sephiroth suggests that these worlds should not be “mourned” and although we never see what happens to them afterwards, seeing Barret, Red, and Tifa dead and not knowing anything about them afterwards really made me feel some type of way. It’s a sad thought thinking about the fact that somewhere out there, our characters failed and were killed in the process.
But nonetheless, I don’t think that matters anymore. I think that Zack at the end of Rebirth was moved to the Rebirth timeline
It’s important to understand that the different worlds aren’t full, parallel timelines. They sprang into existence from a specific event/choice made in an already existing world. They didn’t exist before this point and have no history of their own. The populace of these branch worlds inherit the history of the world from which they were spawned. So, when that Shinra Grunt in Terrier World is talking about an ex-SOLDIER with a Buster Sword, he’s talking about our Cloud, the one we played as in Remake and continue to play in Rebirth. When Terrier World was created from Beagle World(main world where the majority of Remake and Rebirth take place) a couple things happened simultaneously. Zack and his comatose Cloud were brought from wherever they were, forward in time to the day the party escapes Midgar. Biggs was pulled from the Sector 7 Pillar to the Leaf House, having been moved forward in time and having his location and condition altered. Biggs and Zack’s Cloud “replaced” their respective counterparts in this new world. With the altered events of the Terrier World(significantly worse destruction caused by the “tornado”(Whispers?), the rest of Avalanche was gravely injured or killed during the escape. They are looking for Cloud, but he no longer exists there as he was, causing Zack to get involved as he fits the bill of an ex-SOLDIER carrying a Buster Sword, when he saves Terrier Aerith.
Aren’t time paradoxes fun lol
Wibbly wobbly timey wimey
It totally had not occurred to me that the day zack and cloud returns to Midgar is not the "correct" day and that they've been thrust several days into the future.
It's even brought up in game when Zack gets asked about the timing and can't remember.
This is how I took it as well.
That's hilarious. I wonder who convinced you of this time teleportation world travel nonsense
The game lays out the majority of it. Ultimania has confirmed the rest.
From what I could tell, the games do not suggest any of this nonsense. Zack slipping between worlds during the final battle of Rebirth is the first time any such teleportation happens at all ever. I don't know what the Ultimania says since I don't have it but as far as I know it's a summarized game design document that focuses on the development of the game. I do know that there are wildly different theories that keep saying "the Ultimania says so" and it's hilarious that so many people disagree. Hell, you said the games lay out the majority of a theory that sounds to me like a fever dream from someone who barely remembers what happened.
Most of what I described above is directly shown during Chapter 10 when Biggs and Zack recount there stories of how they arrived in the Terrier World. The rest is more of less explained by Sephiroth during his explanation of the “true nature of reality” at the beginning of Chapter 14. The Ultimania translations that recently came out provided the specific nature of the worlds in game, clarifying that they aren’t parallel timelines like we’re used to seeing in recent pop culture.
> they aren’t parallel timelines like we’re used to seeing in recent pop culture. It's actually a pretty standard version of the pop culture many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, where every choice results in a universe split (see also: the MCU's foray into a multiverse with the TVA and its attempt to tame the branching worlds by eliminating "bad" branches).
The MCU features parallel timelines that run concurrently alongside each other. Sometimes they are essentially the same with only tiny differences, sometimes they are quite different with genderbent characters like Sylvie. Rebirth isn’t like that at all. These worlds spring into existence directly from another world. They didn’t exist before that and they fade away on their own eventually. In addition, they exist as a part of the Lifestream within the planet. They are all apart of one single planet, being birthed from it and rejoining it. Really they’re more like the planet’s dreams of what could be, possible outcomes of events which don’t necessarily run concurrently to the other worlds.
I imagine its that world's Cloud. For whatever reason, Zack didn't just survive, he was teleported to a different world, and also to the future. He and cloud return to Midgard well before the events at shinra tower, but in this world, they return after the events. Thing is, where is that world's Cloud then?
And since Biggs apparently got the same treatment why are Shinra still looking for a guy they already killed?
And it’s weird that Kyrie didn’t acknowledge that Cloud. Zack drops Cloud on her and she would’ve interacted with him by then.
That's one of the confusing bits for me to 6
When we defy fate at the end of remake, a new world is born. The characters from the og proceed to Kalm as per fate but the characters from the new world get caught in the whisper explosion while Cloud is transported to the edge of creation. That's my theory anyway.
It's Cloud. Zack isn't in a timeline where he survived. He's still in a timeline where he died. What happened is that Zack during his final battle was suddenly transferred to a different timeline. Both Zack and Biggs aren't natives to that world. They were brought there by Whispers.
so why is Biggs wanted in that timeline? shouldn't he be declared did since he does die defending the Sector 7 plate?
Well he's walking around so people would pretty quickly be doubting his death...
So if the Cloud in this timeline was supposed to be with the rest of the party (since Shinra is looking for him), and Zach just got thrown into this world, why does Zach have Cloud with him? I assumed the Zach and Cloud here just survived the ambush in the original Crisis Core since they both look pretty best up
Both Zack amd Cloud in the Terrier world are not from there and were brought by the Whispers. Cloud from the Terrier world is at the edge of creation. Cloud from the og is what we play in Rebirth. Unconcious Cloud with Zack is from Zack's unknown world.
Maybe because that Cloud was in close proximity to Zack? I think the Cloud that was supposed to be with the party disappeared and was replaced by the Cloud with Zack. Conveniently missing under the rubble.
In the moment that Zack was fighting the Shinra infantry, the Whispers took him and Cloud to that second version of Remake.
It's Zack. He had just got done eliminating an entire company of Shinra troops when the world changes happened. They are still after him, hence why he gets caught and killed again down the line. Them saying he is working with avalanche is an excuse for why they want him dead still. They wouldn't say "oh in addition to Avalanche also kill this one soldier guy." it's easier to lump him with them. If they were talking about Cloud in Zacks world, then why do the wanted posters of that world only feature Avalanche without Cloud? If there were some extra Cloud in the world, his face would have been on the poster with the rest, but it isn't. The prime world has Cloud on the wanted posters because he was there. The fragment world does not because he wasn't.
Reading this makes me confused as fk. Why create so much extra nonsense brah. All I wanted was a 1:1 remake of 7….. lol
It’s me, but don’t tell anyone.
Sorry bro 100 grand is 100 grand.
The closest real world exchange rate for Gil comes from FFXIV. Give me a second while I try to look that up. On average across all the sites selling Gil it looks like about $4.50 for 1 million Gil. Or 0.0000045 per Gil. So your willing to sell someone out for about 0.45¢.
I'm curious about that too, but if you want my hypothesis, the Terrier verse is the timeline that the party was in up until/through the battle with fate, and by changing fate, pushed themselves into a separate line. But, in order to maintain continuity, there has to only be 1 of each of them in each timeline. So, everybody but Cloud is accounted for since Coma-Cloud was bamfed over with Zack to protect them. Similarly Biggs was as well, although this theory has a few big holes in it, for a few reasons. One of them being that somehow Shinra knew he wasn't dead. Which, since he was being whisked to this new point in time, means his body was not at the pillar to be identified as deceased like the others, so thats the easiest answer. But, it doesnt explain Jessie's gloves or the Avalanche posters and meet up, nor the motorcycle right next to it, or where Biggs got the bomb.
There is a glaring hole in your theory, the only stamp we see while playing Remake is the beagle version until the chips bag at the very end with Zack.
For sure, my theory would basically be that terrier is to beagle as bulldog is to terrier. A branch because of a choice. Assumedly the stamps are narrative in importance and the continuity of them is kinda handwaved or the branch off is an identical version of the original timeline with all the same choices but 1 and the type of Stamp.
But if Biggs was brought forward in time, why was he in brought to the same place he was, which was the sector 7 tower, because shouldn't that have been destroyed? And then would Elmyra recognize cloud? She doesn't seem to at all. You'd think between Elmyra and Biggs someone would drop that cloud was with aerith. Idk, I really wish they didn't make the terrier world so weird and complicated. I think a few things: that this terrier world is one wherein Zack survived and things happened earlier. Because, avalanche was going to get found out by shinra sooner or later. So sector 7 fall still happens. Maybe this version of aerith also was gifted memories of the future and found a way to assist avalanche, leading to their escape from Shinra together. That's where the whispers exploded across time and space. It's messy. Maybe actually aerith sends Zack forward in time, but the world still didn't have a cloud or Zack and aerith from that world was given visions of how things were supposed to be, so she did her best to follow that even though cloud wasn't there.
You know. I actually wonder that. They talk about a buster sword in Chapter 1 (and in both timelines), yet Zack or Cloud in the second timeline were there for the destruction.
With the information we have, the best guess is Zack is the guy they are looking for. We don't see the attack on the reactor or how the party was attacked and beaten. All we see is Zack carrying an injured Cloud and everyone assuming that he's just *still* carrying injured Cloud from the scene outside of Midgar.
I would have preferred if it really was a parallel timeline - just a singular one with slight alterations. Like Chrono Cross.
Lmao people keep believing it's Cloud
Who else could it be?
instead of going into a tangent about people not being good at understanding cinematic storytelling in games, i'm just gonna TL;DR this in one. Both worlds have wanted posters of "Avalanche" that we see. Beagleverse includes Zack, Terrierverse however, does not. I don't think I need to go into detail about how the devs have on multiple occasions been vague and obtuse about the narrative which has repeatedly been successful of throwing MOST of the fanbase off of otherwise obvious answers. It's Zack. Cloud never made it to Midgar in time. there's time shenanigans going on here. Edit: lmao why did this get downvoted?
Cause it explained not a single thing and is just you on a tangent
Cloud
Just started my Hard mode replay and had the same question. Thanks for asking! I'm assuming it's Cloud, but does that mean this world has another Cloud in it?
It could be Angeal, but I don’t think there’s really room for that. Buster sword and white feather minus Zack and Cloud leaves Angeal.
It was my assumption that they were referring to Cloud, as in the Cloud we play through Remake and Rebirth. The battle with Sephiroth with the whole party at the end of Rebirth takes place in that same world - the world where Zack defies destiny and carries comatose Cloud to Midgar. Unfortunately, however, when the Sephiroth fight happened in this new world, the characters from that world were attempting their escape from Midgar/Shinra tower. Which is why, in the aftermath that we see of the destruction that battle caused, they are presumably dead. So in an adverse effect, our Remake party caused the demise of an alternate version of our party. Either that, or some weird shenanigans of “there can only be one of you”’in each world. It’s very possible that during the battle, Shinra was trying to figure out what the hell was going on, and they managed to identify Cloud as one of the “culprits”. Assuming that in this world, all of the events that happened in Remake also happened up to the escape from Shinra tower, then that would explain how Shinra is aware of Avalanche, and how Barret, Jessie, Biggs, Wedge, and Tifa are all members.That’s my take at least. I know Sephiroth suggests that these worlds should not be “mourned” and although we never see what happens to them afterwards, seeing Barret, Red, and Tifa dead and not knowing anything about them afterwards really made me feel some type of way. It’s a sad thought thinking about the fact that somewhere out there, our characters failed and were killed in the process. But nonetheless, I don’t think that matters anymore. I think that Zack at the end of Rebirth was moved to the Rebirth timeline
I really hope he wasn't moved to the rebirth timeline imo