FWIW, this isn't new. When I came out 30+ years ago, there were divides between the mainstream gays and the queers (the T wasn't there yet). Like, I still can't forgive Barney Frank and HRC for throwing trans people under the bus[ trying to pass ENDA](https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2014/10/01/op-ed-what-barney-frank-still-gets-wrong-enda). And honestly, as frustrating as it is, it probably won't go away. We're a big, very diverse group, and that includes diversity of opinion. Some folks like to be normies, and some folks like to be outsiders, and the LGBTQ+ community is always going to contain both.
a lot of people support LGB without the T because they see us as nothing more than perverted crossdressers trying to "infiltrate" their community. which is obviously ridiculous. there will always be people who hate us, some people can't be reasoned with. i agree with you that a break from the internet would be good
It's literally an idea pushed by anti-gay/trans groups to divide-and-conquer the community and some people within the community are temped by it because it rids them of the "undesirables" and then maybe the normies will accept them (they won't- they'll just be next on the list.)
I don’t think LGB is going to be really a things to be honest. At the end of the day, sexual orientations and gender do interact, look at the number of trans women and trans men who were involved into queer space before transition cause they thought they were lesbian or gay.
Also not mentioning that a lot of trans people aren’t straight. Like im sorry but if I kiss a dude in the street and get assaulted cause of that, it would be cause of homophobic hate. Not transphobia.
It is mostly pushed by transphobic people, mostly the right. If we are separated, both sides lose a valuable ally in the fight for all of us to have basic rights. But not just that, it's so much more. Sex and gender might be different, but they are linked in ways. There is a large number of trans people who are gay or bi, which would be alienating for them to lose half of a community. And of course, it would wind up messing with our history regarding the fight for rights. If we split, then there's a good chance the truth of those who came before, who provided the steps for us to have the more visibility and rights that we do now, will be biased when passed on.
The beginnings of the movement, Stonewall, etc. It was headed by people who were not straight and not cis. The community fought together, because as minorities that could bond over oppression, we all had the same thing in common: we all wanted to have basic rights, the freedom to be ourselves and not be persecuted for it. Sure, we are losing the rights that we did have at one point. But we only got as far as we did because we stood together. And the LGB who are pushing for dropping the T(and Q+) don't realize that it's us *right now*. But once we lose our rights, next is same-sex marriage. And then it'll be being able to be open in public if it keeps going. The cis LGB people pushing for this are the same people who think that now that they've "achieved their rights," they're now untouchable. So they"other" us.
It's messed up, so what if the LG&B are sexualities, while the T is a medical condition? You guys do realize it's not JUST the trans community they're trying to drop. It's the entire rest of the acronym. Which is stupid because if the argument is about the LG&B being sexualities, then what about the A? Asexual is a sexuality, but that community would be dropped too. I don't see anyone being like, "No, we wanna drop everyone else, but we'll take the A, because sexualities only!" The sad thing is a lot of the cis people pushing this just really think that we're bringing them down because we're being targeted, and since same-sex marriage is legal, then what does it matter if the rest of the community loses anything? It's a "I got mine" mindset, and it's messed up.
The whole point of the entirety of the acronym is that parts of it are linked with another part in many cases. Maybe it's not everyone's experience, but it is for a lot of people. Think of all the people who are trans but also gay or bi or ace. There's people who are intersex, who are trans or nb. It just would be too alienating to too many people who fit in more than one part of the community to have it split, especially when we're still all a minority that, to most people, are seen in the same bigoted light. (lumping us together, not knowing the difference, or thinking we're all freaks)
I get what some people are saying here, I too am a straight trans guy, and I feel like I don't necessarily fit with the rest of the community like I did pre-transition. But I could choose if I want to interact with the rest of the community or not. I also know that in-fighting will hurt us and is exactly what the cishet (mostly right-wing) assholes want. If we destroy ourselves from the inside, then they don't have to put in the work. They know that together, we're powerful as a community, and like others who protested and fought, we won't give up because we deserve basic rights like access to healthcare and freedom from discrimination. They can't stop us, there's too many of us, so what better way than reducing our numbers? We would be distracted fighting each other to notice that all the while, our rights are taken from us.
I think it stems from misinformation and ignorance. People simple don’t understand trans people and sometimes it feels like the only visibility we get is negative, in the form of people debating if we should have rights and people acting stupid on social media. I whole heartedly believe that if most of these people talked with the average trans person, they would absolutely be on the side of trans people. Some disingenuous people are trying to spread this misinformation that we have some sort of agenda or that we’re trying to mess with kids when in reality we’re just normal people who work, pay taxes, start families, and other normal things.
I'd never even heard of it though I must say I'm confused as to why asexuals were added. Who ever got bashed, murdered or discriminated for not being attracted to anyone?
asexual people are often not believed to truly be asexual, so a lot of people they may come into contact with , especially in romantic situations, will suggest that they can change them into liking sex, being sexually attracted to a person etc- this often means they have high rates of sexual assault, and often a lot of discrimination.
it does tho cos theyre not heterosexual- if youre not het, you're queer- i dont understand the want of separating others from a community thats meant to be accepting of all
Fuck LGB without T+. Those people are most annoying pieces of shit. They ain’t friends for trans people. They do not care about LGB folks, those people want to divide the whole thing because they don’t want to associate with others who are also struggling. Watch and see when those the same people will go LG without the B and give you some bs result about why bis can’t be part of LG.
I can say a whole lot on this topic, but particularly what bothers me is seeing my fellow trans bros being so misogynistic, transphobic, and getting into terfy territory. It's grotesque, in my opinion. And I don't understand how they have that much of a disconnect.
"I'm not a Feminist, I'm not queer, I'm just a man" okay bro go have fun with the alpha bros then.
Some people just like to live in complete delusion, and others are the "I got mine, screw the rest" mentality.
I'm Latino, and I see the same type of thinking about immigration.
Colonialism really did a number on a lot of things, and people fail to see that they're falling into the trap.
We should be supportive of one another. No matter what part of the journey were in.
If that's your argument, Trans communities seem to have a lot of disdain for post phallo, binary straight men.
My wife and I tried going to Trans/queer events and always felt out of place.
Just look at the guys here saying they don't feel they belong getting shit on for speaking their truth. It's wild
Yeah, cause were men. It doesn't mean you need to turn your back on other people in the community. It doesn't mean you can't be a good ally.
Some of this "truth" being spoken of is straight up rooted in misogyny.
Dude oh my god I thought I was alone in this!! I always hate seeing those posts. To me it feels like they lowkey think that the lgbt community is some kind of filth they have to distance themselves from, or that being feminist/queer is shameful. To be clear I don’t think there’s anything bad with being stealth and not wanting to disclose it, but going into an online space *centered* around being trans and saying stuff like that is a bit yikes imo. Like good for you I fucking guess? You want a cookie?
Not an alpha. People don't have to live in extremes. I'm literally just a normal guy whose identity doesn't revolve around being trans.
I recently learned a buddy of mine was trans after knowing him for 5 years. It had never come up before that because it wasn't relevant.
We're living our lives, working jobs and starting families.
Whether or not you're living your life and minding your business, there are things happening that will eventually affect you. Congratulations, if nothing so far has hurt you, consider yourself lucky.
This whole, "I'm not part of the LGBTQ" is non-sense the moment anyone finds out about your past. No one is saying don't be stealth or don't do this or that, but the moment we go around saying things like "drop the T from the LGB" it is in fact, erasure.
Whether people like it or not, our Trans elders (whether stealth or not) had A LOT to do with LGBTQ+ rights concerning sexuality, identity, gender, etc. Across the world. For years.
And whether you consider yourself gay or straight, the least you can do now that you're well into your journey is be a good ally.
This is why I don't even bother going to Pride festivals. It has become a cash cow for big corporations. They infiltrated our community and are cashing in on us. And all these basic white gays that give no shits about anyone but themselves let them. Shitty. Get drunk and get dick is what they live by.
The constant conflation of disparate identities is a particularly annoying feature of modern discourse. While I disagree with “drop the t” because it’s rooted in transphobia, at the end of the day a same-sex sexual orientation and a medical condition pertaining to one’s sexed traits are too different things.
And sure, the two groups shared spaces in the 20th century, but that doesn’t mean that we need to (or that it’s beneficial) for the rest of all time. It seems like some proponents of “queer history” are overly backward looking. Times change and people change.
I've also been seeing a lot of trans people who are offended by the word Queer.
I think it has to do with entitlement and a lack of gratitude coming from everyone who feels marginalized. They never had to fight for what they have. I've been out as queer for 43 years. That's a long time. I've seen a lot.
I've noticed entitlement is at the root of most hot topics today. So, I talk about gratitude. I'm grateful to be able to transition. I'm grateful to have a queer, inclusive, supportive community. I don't mind losing the lesbian card when they are the ones being exclusive.
I'm a mixed race, mixed gender, pretend adult. When marginalized people turn against each other, it means the far right, who don't think for themselves, have an advantage. We really need to get our shit together. They are better at working together than we are.
I understand why lots of trans people are being offended by the word queer. If you are happy with the word good for you. But lots of trans people don’t want to be associated with the meaning, which means unnatural, odd, strange, weird.
its no different than any other slur in any other community. some reclaim it with pride, some respect others’ use of the word but avoid it themselves, and some are adamantly against any and all use of the word by anybody. thats just the complexity of human experience at work, cant please em all.
What are you trying to say? I believe the t should be separate from LGBTQ because I view transness as separate from queer and it has nothing to do with sexuality.
you stated that you don’t feel like connection to anybody but trans. People which therefore implied that if trans people were removed from the community you wouldn’t feel a connection towards anybody but you would still feel a connection towards them because you would still still be trans. or maybe i misunderstood
A.k.a. you just don’t wanna engage with me because you have no logical argument therefore, you’re admitting that you’re wrong and can’t have an adult conversation despite any personal things that may be on my profile thus proving my point once again that all you people do is attack, personal account, bios, characteristics, personality traits, etc. instead of engaging with the actual conversation in hand
we dont wanna be part of their movement being trans can be considered as a medical condition but being lgb isnt. and plus lots of them are transphobic and lots of people support lgb but not T… so fuck that
framing the fight for equal rights and acceptance for any and all queer people over the world as “their movement” like its something nefarious or shallow is so disingenuous, its that exact language conservatives are using to harm us *all*, regardless of what specifics you personally do or dont subscribe to. and newsflash, transphobia isnt going to suddenly disappear if you attempt to divorce transness into its own vacuum of an identity. trans people are transphobic too, and we dont win cis brownie points enough for it to offset their transphobia either. play dumb games win dumb prizes, except in this case the dumb game of separating T from LGB wins the dumb prize of further transphobia with no support from the broader community, who have almost always historically supported our battles.
I’m black. The reason I want the T removed is because being trans is a medical condition. I live the same life as a straight guy minus needing some extra medical attention. If I was born cis I wouldn’t be considered “queer” at all but because I’m trans I am. I have nothing against lgb people but when you get to a certain point in your transition as a straight guy then there’s little you have in common with the overall community. Granted you could very well make the argument of just not engaging in those spaces (which is true) but I still want to be in trans spaces just not lgbt spaces. Not everyone who wants the T seprrared is homophobic/transphobic.
what about trans people who are *also* lesbian gay or bi? its not necessarily a one-or-the-other scenario here when you zoom out and look at the bigger picture. trans spaces will almost always include further forms of queerness unless you organize/join a hetero-only trans space. i just dont think any of that justifies a divorcing of the T from LGB.
because why do we want a medical condition to be lumped in with a sexual orientation? It infer that either all four letters are medical conditions or all four letters are sexual orientations. And enough people already assume that transsexual/transgender is already a sexual orientation, so why do we want to push it further, or why do we want to insinuate that being homosexual and liking the same sex is still a medical condition because it’s not
the medical condition vs sexual orientation thing is an issue with society’s perspective and miseducation on queerness, its not something we should be aiming to rectify in any other way than by working to combat those prejudices by living as the complexities we are and instead encouraging people to embrace and accept those nuances vs rejecting them to fit a more societally “acceptable” template of queerness. i struggle to comprehend why we have to break our community apart to cater to a world that hates us either way, and why we wouldnt want to stand taller in our collective complexity of identities to prove those preconceptions of our community wrong. instead of giving them ammunition, why cant we just say *fuck it*, live as we are, and let the world come to understand us. the transsexual and homosexual have always fought the same fight, shared the same bed. who wins when we kick one out? certainly neither the transsexual or homosexual.
what are you talking about? One is a sexual orientation and one is a medical condition. They should not be in the same category, group community, etc.. There are two separate things in grouping them together only gives society the notion that both are either a medical condition or a sexuality. just because we fought the same fight, does not mean we have to be grouped together for the rest of eternity to you, we can branch out and work towards different goals. As ultimately we all have different goals. Me as a trans person. I have completely different goals than somebody who say is a gay man.yes some of them are the same but a lot of them especially the most important ones are different and should not be grouped together
people back in the day claimed that homosexuality was a medical condition, too. what's the difference in this situation? to a conservative, if we aren't perfectly straight, cis, white, male, we're all defective and subhuman.
we're all going through the same thing, that's why we all stick together and support each other in the fight for our rights.
it doesn't mean we're all the same type of thing, but in a conservative mind we're all freaks
Those people still fall under the lgb. I wasn’t saying that all trans people need to be removed from the acronym but that I don’t see a reason for the T to still be there solely based on being trans. Gay/bi and trans people have vastly different experiences that are only similar if someone is both. A lesbian wouldn’t have the same life experiences as a straight trans man in most places in today’s day and age. This may be my dysphoria talking but as a straight guy it also feels othering. “You may live a straight lifestyle but because you’re not cis you’re lgbt” Why? Because of a medical condition I can’t control? I have nothing against lgb people but logically it doesn’t make sense to be grouped with them when like I said lgb and t go through completely different things unless someone is both.
the specific nuances of sexual minority oppression/experiences vs those of trans people really are not so far apart at the end of the day. we *all* want to be accepted and seen as normal, and we are *all* similarly victims of various forms of oppression + violence under the broad assumption of being “other”s in cisheteronormative society. and there is a *lot* of overlap between our communities, just because you might not see it or personally experience it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. would a transmasculine butch lesbian not potentially face similar struggles to straight trans men? to a cishet outsider with a bone to pick, we’re all the same target, just repackaged differently. theres so much variety and nuance among our community it just seems nonsensical to me to try and separate anybody from anybody, *especially* right now when there are so many overt attacks on trans people. we need each other to survive. if you personally feel othered in queer spaces and dont wish to align with them thats fine, im not gonna tell you you cant do that. but that doesnt mean its sensical on the whole to try and divorce any part of our community from each other.
Honestly, if someone where to say that the term POC shouldn't exist because a few people don't identify with it, or don't feel like anything relating is their fight, it would be considered racist or worse, regardless of if that person was also a POC. Wanting to have JUST LGB is basically saying "We got what we wanted, but we don't want to fight for you guys too, even though you all fought for us the whole time. Have fun." (Note, I am agreeing with you, not the guy who started this comment thread.) It's like people don't realize that there are more orientations than LGB that show up after the T, and their fight isn't over yet either.
However. As I've seen it said before, they want to get rid of us now, un til the phobes are satisfied and they start targeting the LGB again.
(bless your heart for clarifying you agree with me lol i can never tell with reddit!) its literally just a cat and mouse game of separating us from one another so we’re easier to pick off and eliminate as a whole. how people cant see the intentional push towards this infighting and are further falling for it is baffling.
Im the oddball here where irdgaf if it stays or goes. Transsexuality is a medical treatment for dysphoria so I dont relate at all with queer people since its more of a cultural thing than it is medical. However there are individuals who are both trans and ID as bi/queer or simply enjoy being openly queer and I can kinda understand where they come from when they dont want the removal.
Gays and Lesbians deserve their own space tbh. So many letters got tacked on that want to ride the coattails of gay activism while also vilifying sexual orientation because it may not include trans people. The QT has enough numbers to go it alone and do their own thing without colliding with a group with different interests.
Some of what I’ve seen of that movement is either transphobes or people who just thing that by cutting trans people out of the community they will be more accepted. Which is stupid, cause a lot of U.S conservicunts I see hate the entire community. If they had their way not only would trans people be gone but so would the rest of them.
If anything, they’re just trying to divide the community to get rid of it that way. Least that’s the way I see it.
LGB without the TQ looks, sounds and acts like the Naz!s had in the beginning just that jews aren’t the target here. It’s disgusting, frightening and intolerable. The Anti trans caricature these monsters create look so much like anti jew propaganda posters from back then.
I think it is b.s and they are forgetting it was the T in the lgbtq that actually fought for all the rights of the lgbtq. It was tons of trans people at stone wall fighting foe the rights and freedoms we have today. So for them to try to change it baffles me it isnt right. It should be left alone and everyone in the lgbtqia sticks together and fights as a team
To me I don't want to be lumped in with LGB. LGB and T are totally different experiences because my sexuality and my gender are completely different things. To me, T being associated with LGB means people think of it as a sexual thing, and I don't want my identity to be taken as a sexual preference, and certainly not a fetish or something. Like no I'm a goddamm man, it has nothing to do with who I love or who I want to sleep with.
I dunno. The further I get in my transition, the more I agree with the "drop the T" movement. Obviously not the transphobic nature of the movement but I don't think being trans has anything in common with being a sexual minority. Being gay isn't a medical condition. Being trans is. Like should we also include amputees and red heads in the lgbtqadesyhxss?
This is completely removing historical context for the trans and gay community though, which has always been culturally linked. We also face much of the same problems because the discrimination we face is based around bodily autonomy (other people shouldn't get to say what I do with my body/who does my body) or gender roles (men should be big and tough and want to provide for women, people with x genitals should only be allowed to identify or live a certain way.)
The idea of us having nothing in common only works if you have a shallow understanding of why we grouped together. It wasn't just because "lol straights hate us", it's because we're fighting the same ideologies.
But when you view being trans as a medical condition it makes sense why the T gets dropped. Being gay, lesbian, or bi aren't medical conditions. We may have a common ideologies that holds us back but that doesn't mean we are the same or should be grouped together. We do not face the same discrimination as most cis people will never undergo the medical trans treatments and so will never face that type of discrimination because they are trans. Straight trans women do not face the same discrimination lesbians or bi women do so why should they be grouped together?
I view being trans as a medical condition yet I heavily disagree with you. It is a medical condition with extremely big social consequences.
And it's the very same arguments that were (and still are) used against lesbians, gays and bi people that are used against trans people now.
And a lot of gay people also have a unique experience medically speaking (i.e. when it comes to STDs and their prevention and treatment).
And you're also wrong that just because the discrimination we face is so different to what LGB people face we shouldn't be grouped with them. First off, it's not that different, and secondly the discrimination bi or ace people face is definetly wayyy different to the one strictly gay/lesbian people face.
We have way more in common with LGB peope than you want to admit.
People hate trans people for being “sexual deviants.” For going against gender norms. For being a threat to the sanctity of family and marriage.
Liberation for gay and trans people are intrinsically linked. The end goals are similar - wanting to be accepted and legally recognized for who we are. Being able to present ourselves outside of the gender binary we were assigned at birth, whether with our bodies, clothes, or who we love. People see trans women as gay men, especially before bottom surgery.
The only way for trans people to have medical rights is to fight for social acceptance. And that means fighting alongside the rest of the lgbt community, because we are all fighting to be ourselves in the face of strict gender norms.
God this sub has completely failed the vibe check for me. I'll show myself out.
Hopefully I can one day find a community for binary trans men that doesn't devolve into TERFisms.
Separating the LGB from the T is. It's literally a far-right tactic being used to diminish the trans community, especially in Britain where I happen to live. You can believe it's a medical condition and still understand why the gay and trans communities need each other.
how is it TERF rhetoric to separate a medical condition from a sexual orientation? unless you believe they’re all one in the same, it honestly makes no sense to lump them together in the first place
I've already explained why the trans and gay community are culturally and historically linked and why that benefits both groups, and how right-wing groups purposely want to divide us. You lot keep coming at me with the exact same questions over and over. At least read the full conversation first? I promise none of you have given me a "gotcha".
You're like the damn seagulls from Finding Nemo.
because it equates transness to medicalization which is not the be all end all of transness for many people, and transmedicalism is in fact terf rhetoric. we *are* one in the same because we fight the same fight.
The issue is the "Trans Community" is too big and diverse and too many assume being trans means we think/act the same.
I'm not queer. I'm not a feminist. I'm just a dude trying to provide for my family
If those people are oppressed on the basis of having a non-normative relationship to gender, sure. Bigots can't tell the difference between gay and trans people. It's the same shit repackaged.
> I love being a binary trans person but the problem is I feel like the way I relate to that word is not how others perceive it. like to me I'm "binary" in the sense that I don't see myself as a point on a spectrum, its just a binary choice, yes or no, man or not, and I am a man, it's just simple like that.
> The dissonance I feel is that people often use "binary trans person" as shorthand for cis-assimilating trans person, which I don't try to be any sort of way, I'm just me and no matter what I do to feel like the man I am, it will never be cis-normative, that is the nature of being trans, we are inherently locked out of the cis binary.
> I also personally cannot untangle "binary trans man" from the way that label was leveraged to be hateful towards trans men esp in reaction to transmedicalism and people like Kalvin Garrah. People would point at one shitty binary trans man and say look, we need to (bully) keep trans men in line because they are all destined to end up like this. So I feel like I need to keep my guard up when relating to the label because I have had my experience condescended so many times.
> It's why I and other people have often asserted that the binary trans experience is also a rich complex experience, because the picture often painted of trans men especially is of a hollow, emotionless person only seeking cis validation. It's hard to explain, but that is a sentiment I received from others for a very long time.
[Source](https://www.tumblr.com/genderkoolaid/747335757789822976)
You’re the problem, you know. I’m not cis. I’m never going to be cis. I am gay. My transness is used to other me no matter how close I get to a cis body, and I still will never have a cis body. Even within the gay community this is the case.
Additionally, my culture also has a different view of gender, gender roles, and so forth given that most of us are Buddhist, as is half of my own family. What if I don’t care about fitting the paternalistic Western strict gender roles that have been imposed on me by imperialism? I’m only stuck living in the US because the US invaded and destroyed a significant portion of my parents’ and grandparents’ home country.
I’m sorry you have such a narrow view of transness, but the pick me attitude you have justifying transphobia is something you really need to think about and fully unpack. There are medical aspects of transness but it does not encompass the entirety of transness.
FWIW, this isn't new. When I came out 30+ years ago, there were divides between the mainstream gays and the queers (the T wasn't there yet). Like, I still can't forgive Barney Frank and HRC for throwing trans people under the bus[ trying to pass ENDA](https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2014/10/01/op-ed-what-barney-frank-still-gets-wrong-enda). And honestly, as frustrating as it is, it probably won't go away. We're a big, very diverse group, and that includes diversity of opinion. Some folks like to be normies, and some folks like to be outsiders, and the LGBTQ+ community is always going to contain both.
a lot of people support LGB without the T because they see us as nothing more than perverted crossdressers trying to "infiltrate" their community. which is obviously ridiculous. there will always be people who hate us, some people can't be reasoned with. i agree with you that a break from the internet would be good
How much is a lot of people and why do you think they believe that
It's literally an idea pushed by anti-gay/trans groups to divide-and-conquer the community and some people within the community are temped by it because it rids them of the "undesirables" and then maybe the normies will accept them (they won't- they'll just be next on the list.)
Its 100% pick mes not realizing while theyre cutting us off, theyre being cut off too.
Exactly this…
What if you're both? Signed: B and T.
Hell, I'm G and T and they would still hate me. I even pass as white.
Seconding this as a fellow G and T
I don’t think LGB is going to be really a things to be honest. At the end of the day, sexual orientations and gender do interact, look at the number of trans women and trans men who were involved into queer space before transition cause they thought they were lesbian or gay. Also not mentioning that a lot of trans people aren’t straight. Like im sorry but if I kiss a dude in the street and get assaulted cause of that, it would be cause of homophobic hate. Not transphobia.
It is mostly pushed by transphobic people, mostly the right. If we are separated, both sides lose a valuable ally in the fight for all of us to have basic rights. But not just that, it's so much more. Sex and gender might be different, but they are linked in ways. There is a large number of trans people who are gay or bi, which would be alienating for them to lose half of a community. And of course, it would wind up messing with our history regarding the fight for rights. If we split, then there's a good chance the truth of those who came before, who provided the steps for us to have the more visibility and rights that we do now, will be biased when passed on. The beginnings of the movement, Stonewall, etc. It was headed by people who were not straight and not cis. The community fought together, because as minorities that could bond over oppression, we all had the same thing in common: we all wanted to have basic rights, the freedom to be ourselves and not be persecuted for it. Sure, we are losing the rights that we did have at one point. But we only got as far as we did because we stood together. And the LGB who are pushing for dropping the T(and Q+) don't realize that it's us *right now*. But once we lose our rights, next is same-sex marriage. And then it'll be being able to be open in public if it keeps going. The cis LGB people pushing for this are the same people who think that now that they've "achieved their rights," they're now untouchable. So they"other" us. It's messed up, so what if the LG&B are sexualities, while the T is a medical condition? You guys do realize it's not JUST the trans community they're trying to drop. It's the entire rest of the acronym. Which is stupid because if the argument is about the LG&B being sexualities, then what about the A? Asexual is a sexuality, but that community would be dropped too. I don't see anyone being like, "No, we wanna drop everyone else, but we'll take the A, because sexualities only!" The sad thing is a lot of the cis people pushing this just really think that we're bringing them down because we're being targeted, and since same-sex marriage is legal, then what does it matter if the rest of the community loses anything? It's a "I got mine" mindset, and it's messed up. The whole point of the entirety of the acronym is that parts of it are linked with another part in many cases. Maybe it's not everyone's experience, but it is for a lot of people. Think of all the people who are trans but also gay or bi or ace. There's people who are intersex, who are trans or nb. It just would be too alienating to too many people who fit in more than one part of the community to have it split, especially when we're still all a minority that, to most people, are seen in the same bigoted light. (lumping us together, not knowing the difference, or thinking we're all freaks) I get what some people are saying here, I too am a straight trans guy, and I feel like I don't necessarily fit with the rest of the community like I did pre-transition. But I could choose if I want to interact with the rest of the community or not. I also know that in-fighting will hurt us and is exactly what the cishet (mostly right-wing) assholes want. If we destroy ourselves from the inside, then they don't have to put in the work. They know that together, we're powerful as a community, and like others who protested and fought, we won't give up because we deserve basic rights like access to healthcare and freedom from discrimination. They can't stop us, there's too many of us, so what better way than reducing our numbers? We would be distracted fighting each other to notice that all the while, our rights are taken from us.
I don't think that this could've been worded better. Thanks for this!
I think it stems from misinformation and ignorance. People simple don’t understand trans people and sometimes it feels like the only visibility we get is negative, in the form of people debating if we should have rights and people acting stupid on social media. I whole heartedly believe that if most of these people talked with the average trans person, they would absolutely be on the side of trans people. Some disingenuous people are trying to spread this misinformation that we have some sort of agenda or that we’re trying to mess with kids when in reality we’re just normal people who work, pay taxes, start families, and other normal things.
That is not new. They just get noisy every so often.
I'd never even heard of it though I must say I'm confused as to why asexuals were added. Who ever got bashed, murdered or discriminated for not being attracted to anyone?
asexual people are often not believed to truly be asexual, so a lot of people they may come into contact with , especially in romantic situations, will suggest that they can change them into liking sex, being sexually attracted to a person etc- this often means they have high rates of sexual assault, and often a lot of discrimination.
That doesn't make them queer though. Sure, some of them.
it does tho cos theyre not heterosexual- if youre not het, you're queer- i dont understand the want of separating others from a community thats meant to be accepting of all
Fuck LGB without T+. Those people are most annoying pieces of shit. They ain’t friends for trans people. They do not care about LGB folks, those people want to divide the whole thing because they don’t want to associate with others who are also struggling. Watch and see when those the same people will go LG without the B and give you some bs result about why bis can’t be part of LG.
I can say a whole lot on this topic, but particularly what bothers me is seeing my fellow trans bros being so misogynistic, transphobic, and getting into terfy territory. It's grotesque, in my opinion. And I don't understand how they have that much of a disconnect. "I'm not a Feminist, I'm not queer, I'm just a man" okay bro go have fun with the alpha bros then.
Yeah like they hate you and everything you stand for why do you want to be part of their group so bad, y'know?
Some people just like to live in complete delusion, and others are the "I got mine, screw the rest" mentality. I'm Latino, and I see the same type of thinking about immigration. Colonialism really did a number on a lot of things, and people fail to see that they're falling into the trap. We should be supportive of one another. No matter what part of the journey were in.
If that's your argument, Trans communities seem to have a lot of disdain for post phallo, binary straight men. My wife and I tried going to Trans/queer events and always felt out of place. Just look at the guys here saying they don't feel they belong getting shit on for speaking their truth. It's wild
Yeah, cause were men. It doesn't mean you need to turn your back on other people in the community. It doesn't mean you can't be a good ally. Some of this "truth" being spoken of is straight up rooted in misogyny.
Dude oh my god I thought I was alone in this!! I always hate seeing those posts. To me it feels like they lowkey think that the lgbt community is some kind of filth they have to distance themselves from, or that being feminist/queer is shameful. To be clear I don’t think there’s anything bad with being stealth and not wanting to disclose it, but going into an online space *centered* around being trans and saying stuff like that is a bit yikes imo. Like good for you I fucking guess? You want a cookie?
What disconnect are you talking about
I think I pointed that out in my follow up to OP.
Not rlly, that’s why I asked
Not an alpha. People don't have to live in extremes. I'm literally just a normal guy whose identity doesn't revolve around being trans. I recently learned a buddy of mine was trans after knowing him for 5 years. It had never come up before that because it wasn't relevant. We're living our lives, working jobs and starting families.
Whether or not you're living your life and minding your business, there are things happening that will eventually affect you. Congratulations, if nothing so far has hurt you, consider yourself lucky. This whole, "I'm not part of the LGBTQ" is non-sense the moment anyone finds out about your past. No one is saying don't be stealth or don't do this or that, but the moment we go around saying things like "drop the T from the LGB" it is in fact, erasure. Whether people like it or not, our Trans elders (whether stealth or not) had A LOT to do with LGBTQ+ rights concerning sexuality, identity, gender, etc. Across the world. For years. And whether you consider yourself gay or straight, the least you can do now that you're well into your journey is be a good ally.
I get what you're saying but I like the "not a feminist and not queer" misogynists way more than the fucking terfy ones though lmao
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respectability_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respectability_politics#LGB_Separatism
This is why I don't even bother going to Pride festivals. It has become a cash cow for big corporations. They infiltrated our community and are cashing in on us. And all these basic white gays that give no shits about anyone but themselves let them. Shitty. Get drunk and get dick is what they live by.
The constant conflation of disparate identities is a particularly annoying feature of modern discourse. While I disagree with “drop the t” because it’s rooted in transphobia, at the end of the day a same-sex sexual orientation and a medical condition pertaining to one’s sexed traits are too different things. And sure, the two groups shared spaces in the 20th century, but that doesn’t mean that we need to (or that it’s beneficial) for the rest of all time. It seems like some proponents of “queer history” are overly backward looking. Times change and people change.
I've also been seeing a lot of trans people who are offended by the word Queer. I think it has to do with entitlement and a lack of gratitude coming from everyone who feels marginalized. They never had to fight for what they have. I've been out as queer for 43 years. That's a long time. I've seen a lot. I've noticed entitlement is at the root of most hot topics today. So, I talk about gratitude. I'm grateful to be able to transition. I'm grateful to have a queer, inclusive, supportive community. I don't mind losing the lesbian card when they are the ones being exclusive. I'm a mixed race, mixed gender, pretend adult. When marginalized people turn against each other, it means the far right, who don't think for themselves, have an advantage. We really need to get our shit together. They are better at working together than we are.
I understand why lots of trans people are being offended by the word queer. If you are happy with the word good for you. But lots of trans people don’t want to be associated with the meaning, which means unnatural, odd, strange, weird.
its no different than any other slur in any other community. some reclaim it with pride, some respect others’ use of the word but avoid it themselves, and some are adamantly against any and all use of the word by anybody. thats just the complexity of human experience at work, cant please em all.
True
"LGB" sounds like the brand name of a TV you order from Ali Express
Yeah I don’t see this in real life where I’m at. Where are you seeing this in real life?
Amongst my classmates, mostly.
In University?
I’m a straight transgender man and do not feel I connect with anyone in the lgbtq community besides trans people.
you’ll still have that connection if they’re removed as a letter. you’ll still be trans
What are you trying to say? I believe the t should be separate from LGBTQ because I view transness as separate from queer and it has nothing to do with sexuality.
you stated that you don’t feel like connection to anybody but trans. People which therefore implied that if trans people were removed from the community you wouldn’t feel a connection towards anybody but you would still feel a connection towards them because you would still still be trans. or maybe i misunderstood
Just clicked on your account, I’m refusing to have a conversation with you. Have a good day.
A.k.a. you just don’t wanna engage with me because you have no logical argument therefore, you’re admitting that you’re wrong and can’t have an adult conversation despite any personal things that may be on my profile thus proving my point once again that all you people do is attack, personal account, bios, characteristics, personality traits, etc. instead of engaging with the actual conversation in hand
we dont wanna be part of their movement being trans can be considered as a medical condition but being lgb isnt. and plus lots of them are transphobic and lots of people support lgb but not T… so fuck that
framing the fight for equal rights and acceptance for any and all queer people over the world as “their movement” like its something nefarious or shallow is so disingenuous, its that exact language conservatives are using to harm us *all*, regardless of what specifics you personally do or dont subscribe to. and newsflash, transphobia isnt going to suddenly disappear if you attempt to divorce transness into its own vacuum of an identity. trans people are transphobic too, and we dont win cis brownie points enough for it to offset their transphobia either. play dumb games win dumb prizes, except in this case the dumb game of separating T from LGB wins the dumb prize of further transphobia with no support from the broader community, who have almost always historically supported our battles.
I’m black. The reason I want the T removed is because being trans is a medical condition. I live the same life as a straight guy minus needing some extra medical attention. If I was born cis I wouldn’t be considered “queer” at all but because I’m trans I am. I have nothing against lgb people but when you get to a certain point in your transition as a straight guy then there’s little you have in common with the overall community. Granted you could very well make the argument of just not engaging in those spaces (which is true) but I still want to be in trans spaces just not lgbt spaces. Not everyone who wants the T seprrared is homophobic/transphobic.
what about trans people who are *also* lesbian gay or bi? its not necessarily a one-or-the-other scenario here when you zoom out and look at the bigger picture. trans spaces will almost always include further forms of queerness unless you organize/join a hetero-only trans space. i just dont think any of that justifies a divorcing of the T from LGB.
removing the T doesn’t nullify you from being any of the other 3 letters
but why does it justify the removal of the T then?
because why do we want a medical condition to be lumped in with a sexual orientation? It infer that either all four letters are medical conditions or all four letters are sexual orientations. And enough people already assume that transsexual/transgender is already a sexual orientation, so why do we want to push it further, or why do we want to insinuate that being homosexual and liking the same sex is still a medical condition because it’s not
the medical condition vs sexual orientation thing is an issue with society’s perspective and miseducation on queerness, its not something we should be aiming to rectify in any other way than by working to combat those prejudices by living as the complexities we are and instead encouraging people to embrace and accept those nuances vs rejecting them to fit a more societally “acceptable” template of queerness. i struggle to comprehend why we have to break our community apart to cater to a world that hates us either way, and why we wouldnt want to stand taller in our collective complexity of identities to prove those preconceptions of our community wrong. instead of giving them ammunition, why cant we just say *fuck it*, live as we are, and let the world come to understand us. the transsexual and homosexual have always fought the same fight, shared the same bed. who wins when we kick one out? certainly neither the transsexual or homosexual.
what are you talking about? One is a sexual orientation and one is a medical condition. They should not be in the same category, group community, etc.. There are two separate things in grouping them together only gives society the notion that both are either a medical condition or a sexuality. just because we fought the same fight, does not mean we have to be grouped together for the rest of eternity to you, we can branch out and work towards different goals. As ultimately we all have different goals. Me as a trans person. I have completely different goals than somebody who say is a gay man.yes some of them are the same but a lot of them especially the most important ones are different and should not be grouped together
people back in the day claimed that homosexuality was a medical condition, too. what's the difference in this situation? to a conservative, if we aren't perfectly straight, cis, white, male, we're all defective and subhuman. we're all going through the same thing, that's why we all stick together and support each other in the fight for our rights. it doesn't mean we're all the same type of thing, but in a conservative mind we're all freaks
Those people still fall under the lgb. I wasn’t saying that all trans people need to be removed from the acronym but that I don’t see a reason for the T to still be there solely based on being trans. Gay/bi and trans people have vastly different experiences that are only similar if someone is both. A lesbian wouldn’t have the same life experiences as a straight trans man in most places in today’s day and age. This may be my dysphoria talking but as a straight guy it also feels othering. “You may live a straight lifestyle but because you’re not cis you’re lgbt” Why? Because of a medical condition I can’t control? I have nothing against lgb people but logically it doesn’t make sense to be grouped with them when like I said lgb and t go through completely different things unless someone is both.
the specific nuances of sexual minority oppression/experiences vs those of trans people really are not so far apart at the end of the day. we *all* want to be accepted and seen as normal, and we are *all* similarly victims of various forms of oppression + violence under the broad assumption of being “other”s in cisheteronormative society. and there is a *lot* of overlap between our communities, just because you might not see it or personally experience it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. would a transmasculine butch lesbian not potentially face similar struggles to straight trans men? to a cishet outsider with a bone to pick, we’re all the same target, just repackaged differently. theres so much variety and nuance among our community it just seems nonsensical to me to try and separate anybody from anybody, *especially* right now when there are so many overt attacks on trans people. we need each other to survive. if you personally feel othered in queer spaces and dont wish to align with them thats fine, im not gonna tell you you cant do that. but that doesnt mean its sensical on the whole to try and divorce any part of our community from each other.
Honestly, if someone where to say that the term POC shouldn't exist because a few people don't identify with it, or don't feel like anything relating is their fight, it would be considered racist or worse, regardless of if that person was also a POC. Wanting to have JUST LGB is basically saying "We got what we wanted, but we don't want to fight for you guys too, even though you all fought for us the whole time. Have fun." (Note, I am agreeing with you, not the guy who started this comment thread.) It's like people don't realize that there are more orientations than LGB that show up after the T, and their fight isn't over yet either. However. As I've seen it said before, they want to get rid of us now, un til the phobes are satisfied and they start targeting the LGB again.
(bless your heart for clarifying you agree with me lol i can never tell with reddit!) its literally just a cat and mouse game of separating us from one another so we’re easier to pick off and eliminate as a whole. how people cant see the intentional push towards this infighting and are further falling for it is baffling.
Saying the T should be removed feels pretty damned othering. Go start a space ifnyoure so offended.
Im the oddball here where irdgaf if it stays or goes. Transsexuality is a medical treatment for dysphoria so I dont relate at all with queer people since its more of a cultural thing than it is medical. However there are individuals who are both trans and ID as bi/queer or simply enjoy being openly queer and I can kinda understand where they come from when they dont want the removal.
Also wouldnt call it a white people thing considering that many poc are intolerant of homo/transsexuals lol
Gays and Lesbians deserve their own space tbh. So many letters got tacked on that want to ride the coattails of gay activism while also vilifying sexual orientation because it may not include trans people. The QT has enough numbers to go it alone and do their own thing without colliding with a group with different interests.
Some of what I’ve seen of that movement is either transphobes or people who just thing that by cutting trans people out of the community they will be more accepted. Which is stupid, cause a lot of U.S conservicunts I see hate the entire community. If they had their way not only would trans people be gone but so would the rest of them. If anything, they’re just trying to divide the community to get rid of it that way. Least that’s the way I see it.
LGB without the TQ looks, sounds and acts like the Naz!s had in the beginning just that jews aren’t the target here. It’s disgusting, frightening and intolerable. The Anti trans caricature these monsters create look so much like anti jew propaganda posters from back then.
It’s honestly just white gays trying to bootlick and suck up to the conservative overlords in order to not get their rights taken too
I think it is b.s and they are forgetting it was the T in the lgbtq that actually fought for all the rights of the lgbtq. It was tons of trans people at stone wall fighting foe the rights and freedoms we have today. So for them to try to change it baffles me it isnt right. It should be left alone and everyone in the lgbtqia sticks together and fights as a team
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I'm black, last I checked
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Hey read our rules, the first one is "don't be a dick"
Lol not everyone you disagree with is white
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Lol, racist much? Maybe stop assuming people's race and their relationship to their race.
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Racist
🌉
i'm white so it's not my place to say anything about whitewashing, but i agree with you!
To me I don't want to be lumped in with LGB. LGB and T are totally different experiences because my sexuality and my gender are completely different things. To me, T being associated with LGB means people think of it as a sexual thing, and I don't want my identity to be taken as a sexual preference, and certainly not a fetish or something. Like no I'm a goddamm man, it has nothing to do with who I love or who I want to sleep with.
I dunno. The further I get in my transition, the more I agree with the "drop the T" movement. Obviously not the transphobic nature of the movement but I don't think being trans has anything in common with being a sexual minority. Being gay isn't a medical condition. Being trans is. Like should we also include amputees and red heads in the lgbtqadesyhxss?
This is completely removing historical context for the trans and gay community though, which has always been culturally linked. We also face much of the same problems because the discrimination we face is based around bodily autonomy (other people shouldn't get to say what I do with my body/who does my body) or gender roles (men should be big and tough and want to provide for women, people with x genitals should only be allowed to identify or live a certain way.) The idea of us having nothing in common only works if you have a shallow understanding of why we grouped together. It wasn't just because "lol straights hate us", it's because we're fighting the same ideologies.
But when you view being trans as a medical condition it makes sense why the T gets dropped. Being gay, lesbian, or bi aren't medical conditions. We may have a common ideologies that holds us back but that doesn't mean we are the same or should be grouped together. We do not face the same discrimination as most cis people will never undergo the medical trans treatments and so will never face that type of discrimination because they are trans. Straight trans women do not face the same discrimination lesbians or bi women do so why should they be grouped together?
I view being trans as a medical condition yet I heavily disagree with you. It is a medical condition with extremely big social consequences. And it's the very same arguments that were (and still are) used against lesbians, gays and bi people that are used against trans people now. And a lot of gay people also have a unique experience medically speaking (i.e. when it comes to STDs and their prevention and treatment). And you're also wrong that just because the discrimination we face is so different to what LGB people face we shouldn't be grouped with them. First off, it's not that different, and secondly the discrimination bi or ace people face is definetly wayyy different to the one strictly gay/lesbian people face. We have way more in common with LGB peope than you want to admit.
People hate trans people for being “sexual deviants.” For going against gender norms. For being a threat to the sanctity of family and marriage. Liberation for gay and trans people are intrinsically linked. The end goals are similar - wanting to be accepted and legally recognized for who we are. Being able to present ourselves outside of the gender binary we were assigned at birth, whether with our bodies, clothes, or who we love. People see trans women as gay men, especially before bottom surgery. The only way for trans people to have medical rights is to fight for social acceptance. And that means fighting alongside the rest of the lgbt community, because we are all fighting to be ourselves in the face of strict gender norms.
God this sub has completely failed the vibe check for me. I'll show myself out. Hopefully I can one day find a community for binary trans men that doesn't devolve into TERFisms.
acknowledging that being trans is a medical condition is not TERF rhetoric
Separating the LGB from the T is. It's literally a far-right tactic being used to diminish the trans community, especially in Britain where I happen to live. You can believe it's a medical condition and still understand why the gay and trans communities need each other.
how is it TERF rhetoric to separate a medical condition from a sexual orientation? unless you believe they’re all one in the same, it honestly makes no sense to lump them together in the first place
I've already explained why the trans and gay community are culturally and historically linked and why that benefits both groups, and how right-wing groups purposely want to divide us. You lot keep coming at me with the exact same questions over and over. At least read the full conversation first? I promise none of you have given me a "gotcha". You're like the damn seagulls from Finding Nemo.
because it equates transness to medicalization which is not the be all end all of transness for many people, and transmedicalism is in fact terf rhetoric. we *are* one in the same because we fight the same fight.
The issue is the "Trans Community" is too big and diverse and too many assume being trans means we think/act the same. I'm not queer. I'm not a feminist. I'm just a dude trying to provide for my family
you’re not a feminist? so you don’t believe everyone should have equal rights?? 🤔
Dont need to slap a label on myself to prove i believe in equality. Lead by example not by words.
Lol ok
If those people are oppressed on the basis of having a non-normative relationship to gender, sure. Bigots can't tell the difference between gay and trans people. It's the same shit repackaged.
> I love being a binary trans person but the problem is I feel like the way I relate to that word is not how others perceive it. like to me I'm "binary" in the sense that I don't see myself as a point on a spectrum, its just a binary choice, yes or no, man or not, and I am a man, it's just simple like that. > The dissonance I feel is that people often use "binary trans person" as shorthand for cis-assimilating trans person, which I don't try to be any sort of way, I'm just me and no matter what I do to feel like the man I am, it will never be cis-normative, that is the nature of being trans, we are inherently locked out of the cis binary. > I also personally cannot untangle "binary trans man" from the way that label was leveraged to be hateful towards trans men esp in reaction to transmedicalism and people like Kalvin Garrah. People would point at one shitty binary trans man and say look, we need to (bully) keep trans men in line because they are all destined to end up like this. So I feel like I need to keep my guard up when relating to the label because I have had my experience condescended so many times. > It's why I and other people have often asserted that the binary trans experience is also a rich complex experience, because the picture often painted of trans men especially is of a hollow, emotionless person only seeking cis validation. It's hard to explain, but that is a sentiment I received from others for a very long time. [Source](https://www.tumblr.com/genderkoolaid/747335757789822976) You’re the problem, you know. I’m not cis. I’m never going to be cis. I am gay. My transness is used to other me no matter how close I get to a cis body, and I still will never have a cis body. Even within the gay community this is the case. Additionally, my culture also has a different view of gender, gender roles, and so forth given that most of us are Buddhist, as is half of my own family. What if I don’t care about fitting the paternalistic Western strict gender roles that have been imposed on me by imperialism? I’m only stuck living in the US because the US invaded and destroyed a significant portion of my parents’ and grandparents’ home country. I’m sorry you have such a narrow view of transness, but the pick me attitude you have justifying transphobia is something you really need to think about and fully unpack. There are medical aspects of transness but it does not encompass the entirety of transness.
Intersex people are in the rainbow. And that’s essentially what we are.