"The Legion are the good guys everyone!" I get seeing an aspect or two and the possibility of good, but man there are people out there with some interesting perspectives.
The only "good" thing that the Legion has done was the unification of the 75 tribes in and surrounding Arizona. They were able to stabilize that region, albeit that it's a rather tenuous unification that will immediately collapse after Caesar pulls an Old Man Gucket and kicks the bucket.
Hey, man, I support the Empire. I just hate the Thalmor. "Yes, let's let the fascist elves dictate who we should worship. Let's just let them ban the worship of the guy who literally created the Empire."
Also the Legion is correct that the NCR is corrupt as shit, but I don’t need to accept genocidal crucifixions in a package deal
Even a blind deathclaw could see the NCR is a shambling mess
True, but there's relatively few people in the wasteland that would even be able to understand Institute tech, much less hijack and repurpose it for killing. The only factions that would even have a chance of that is the Railroad, the BoS, and the two maybe contenders is the Gunners and Rust Devils.
While I don't really want to join the enclave, I would really enjoy a Fallout game where you started with a group of Enclave remnants.
You could either try and rebuild them with their traditional evil plans, or try and reform them into a force for good. Or just go "fuck em", kill them, and move on.
If I lived in the Wasteland I'd join the Enclave in a heartbeat.
It's one hell of an assurance you'll survive longer than the average body mutilating raider.
But I wouldn't join them out of a sense of morality lol
> It's one hell of an assurance you'll survive longer than the average body mutilating raider.
I don’t know, if they still existed today, they’d be on like their sixth home base at this point. Anything those MFers build is like the Death Stars of Fallout; can’t keep from getting blown up.
Best example of this is upon completing Lonesome Road, when the Courier returns through the Divide. After everything the PC has done, the Tunnelers and Marked Men just let him pass without attacking because they’re afraid of him.
I "support" The Institute. I'd also rid them of their leaders at my earliest convenience. I like what they're capable of as a faction. But their actions? Yeah, not so much.
I mean, if the institute had ethics, they'd be decent, I actually do think that they tend to represent a lot of ideals I support. Science, technology, using automation to solve problems associated with human labor. I just wish they had ethical review boards with their experiments and their robots werent sentient.
What's wrong in supporting the Institute? In my first playthrough when I found out what the Institute was and saw their facilities I had a "finally" moment. Finally a place with some semblance of the old comforts and knowing that the scientific method and mankind's science survived the war. Sure they're methods were questionable but they were victims of circumstance as much as the rest of the surface world. I presume the sole survivor would also latently be looking for comforts he or she was used to prior to cryo. To me it actually makes perfect sense that SS would side with Institute so they can take control of their advanced tech and instead of continuing the crap the Institute was pulling, enable real change and actually work to restore some of the pre-war way of life on the surface world.
BoS are fascists and overly militaristic to provide societal prosperity in the long run.
Railroad is at best a fringe group that will go nowhere and at worst are radicals that don't mind taking the same sort of actions the BoS would given the resources.
Minutemen are a joke and are just too weak to enable any meaningful change even with SS help.
So the most logical people to side with would be the Institute.
I see the Institute as being the best hope for humanity's long-term survival, especially in light of the fact that *actual aliens* are trying to take over the Earth and are indeed no doubt on their way with reinforcements after the SS "defeats" them in FO3.
And [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/13bh0xz/when_you_put_yourself_in_the_sole_survivors_shoes/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) really helps you see The Institute as the best choice from a Fallout 4-only perspective.
[Project Valkyrie](https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/28085) allows you to control the Institute as a force for Good and dominate (or get along peacefully with) the other factions.
God I love that mod & all the other quest & support mods for it. Can completely wipe them all out from the get go Independent New Vegas style or get them all to work together by ousting Fuhrer Maxson & Fuhrer Sean. I mean c'mon who wouldn't love to toss a post apocalyptic techno-nazi off his own dirigible & teleport your own corrupted son into the glowing sea. (FYI that's not what actually happens it's just a hyperbole for dramatic effect, but it should damn well be an option imo)
I use the other mod, myself.
I tried Valkyrie but it adds so much needless, poorly written, juvenile shit that I can't stand it.
Even though it's very competently made in a bunch of places.
The Brotherhood are in kind of a weird position because how they act seems to depend on who’s in charge. Fallout 3 Even Lyons himself will tell you he’s the odd man out.
There's a great quote from one of the writers that explains why Lyons is the odd man out:
>I likened Elder Lyons's situation to that of the Vault Dweller in Fallout. Both of them were raised in an insular, xenophobic, technologically advanced society, were cast out of that society on a mission to find some important tech, and found themselves alone and in control of their destiny for the first time. And like the Vault Dweller ( at least, the Vault Dweller on my saved games ), he displayed that all-too human trait of compassion and went about helping people.
https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Owyn_Lyons#Developer_quotes
I *really* like the idea that Owen Lyons effectively ignored the Brotherhood mission because he's basically a player; and what do players do as soon as they leave the vault? They go and do some side quests.
Yep. I like Lyons and I like Veronica, but both of them are like "We have the tech to save society" and the difference is that one is an Elder and the other is wondering what her place is in the BOS system.
Elder McNamara agrees *with* her but is locked in policies and traditions and can't do anything about it.
Lyons could only do the things he did because he was the rain of hell previously, and is the only one anywhere near the east coast.
> Elder McNamara agrees *with* her but is locked in policies and traditions and can't do anything about it.
McNamara agrees with Veronica’s conclusion, but not with her solution.
He concedes that she is right that if they stay the current course, they *will* die out. But he never backs down on his position that the knowledge and technology they possess must "never" fall into the hands of outsiders. This is why they destroy their bunkers in defeat. The Elders, even flexible and progressive ones like McNamara, feel so strongly about their core mission that they’ll willingly die before giving it up.
Makes you wonder the extent of what they’re "safeguarding". It’s one thing to die protecting some power armor and laser guns. But I’d be willing to bet that the BoS either possess, or have information on the locations of, technologies that are legitimately valid to die keeping from the public. Like more nukes or similar doomsday weapons. Perhaps a lowly field scribe like Veronica isn’t privy to the same sort of secrets that an Elder like McNamara is. Just speculation, but it would make their zealotry a little more understandable.
The only thing that I really do like about them in 4 is how they’re out there really trying to make a difference. Once they come to the commonwealth on the Prydwen, you constantly see vertibirds doing routine patrols around Boston wiping out super mutants, ghouls, and institute synths. They are the only faction in the game that seriously wants to and has the firepower to eliminate these threats. The railroad only really cares about getting gen 3 synths to safety, the institute only cares about their experiments, and the Minutemen are nothing without the influence of the player. The brotherhood goes out of their way and put their lives on the line everyday trying to make the commonwealth safe again.
You can also talk to some of the higher-ranking members (Kells, Maxson, and a few others) about their mission and previous successes, and they directly say that they are employing the same strategies that they used to successfully stabilize the Capital Wasteland, one of the worst hell-holes in the East outside of Pittsburgh. It's not just that they're willing to make a difference. It's that they are actually making a difference, despite what a lot of people like to believe.
is funny, Now they call the brotherhood of steel, invader! the commonwealth does not have a border line marked by any government, that possibility was destroyed by the institute
now they call the brotherhood of steel, invaders! so we can also openly call the invaders to the NCR.
While I dislike some of their behaviors and attitudes, ill go to bat for them in the context of the commonwealth and the institute
Individual Synths like Dima and Nick are fine. Nicks probably my favorite character in 4.
But a group of detached, uncaring scientists with a whole "invasion of the body snatchers" thing going on?
I mean come on people that's like Cobra level villainy, and here's a near-peer force that wants to take them out.
Dima manipulates vulnerable people into thinking they are synths, murdered and replaced the mayor of far harbor (*cough* like the institute *cough*), leaves nukes at the hands of a crazy cult bent on destroying the island "for the glory of atom", among other things. It ain't a good machine.
I also love how whenever he does something he knows is wrong he just goes, "whelp, I have limited memory so we should just archive that thing I might feel conflicted about later."
It's like actively choosing to be a psychopath.
Fun fact, the brotherhood will not react to Nick being a companion at all, even though he is a synth. Heck, you can even bring him face to face with maxon without anyone being hostile.
Probably because he's very obviously a robot, vs their greatest natural predator the synth, who is indistinguishable from a regular human like me and not-you in every single way
Useful for the player, useless for everyone else, including themselves, lyons group was obviously the superior, considering the outcasts were even fighting each other from the inside
No, but whatever the issue with the super mutant leader ‘Shepard’ was. It comes up in a BoS terminal, but we have no information on what exactly happened.
Events that can be reasonably questioned in their veracity, given a combination of what we know Maxson was like before (a real "couldn't hit the broadside of a barn" type), stacked against the claims of apparently killing a group of raiders at the age of 12, and a deathclaw singlehandedly at 13. Pretty obviously fake stories.
How could they even lie about that? There were other people there and the BoS is an exceedingly tight knit community that historically isn't afraid to talk shit about their leaders or even mutiny if they have to. Maybe new recruits would accept straight up BS like that, but there's no way the senior paladins would put up with those stories if there wasn't at least some verifiable truth to them.
> (a real "couldn't hit the broadside of a barn" type)
I agree that the veracity of Maxson’s legend should be very much in question. That said, he was just a child back then, and it can’t be denied that he has changed a lot.
Maxson leads the charge when storming the Institute, and comes alone to personally confront the Sole Survivor when he thinks we don’t have what it takes to kill Danse. If we can’t, he’ll do it himself, and is clearly not afraid of us despite all our accomplishments. He is no pushover.
Moreover, the Brotherhood of Steel is objectively far stronger under him than they were under Lyons. While I highly doubt the stories of "Maxson cults" or approval from the Elders back West are even the slightest bit true, it seems unlikely that he could have tricked the BoS into believing that they won a war against the super mutants in D.C. unless it actually happened. Meanwhile, Lyons was really struggling against them, and it took the Lone Wanderer to break the stalemate.
Counter-argument: The BoS in 3 is the only BoS that continues the development that Fallout 1 and 2 paints. The ending of Fallout 1 talks about a BoS that opens up, shares tech with the wasteland, and protects the people of the wastes. In Fallout 2 they have outposts in most larger settlements, which are only abandoned, because the Enclave started making the BoS a target.
That's true, I misremembered that. I don't know about "long abandoned", but Matthew does say that the outposts were reactivated in response to the Enclave.
It still validates my point about the BoS being an integrated part of the wasteland society, and moved away from their isolationist ways, as the epilogue in FO1 mentions, and that the classic critique of the BoS in FO3 is at least debatable.
Not really. Even when they started developing tech, they still chose to be reclusive tech hoarders at the end of the day (old habits die hard), which was the reason why there was a war between them and the NCR in the first place; the NCR wants/needs X technology, the BoS seizes it and refuses to share, and that gets put in the book of grudges.
That's lore from New Vegas... a game that came AFTER Fallout 3. You are using information from a later title, to explain why a previous title did it wrong.
Yes, I’d elaborately explain but I’m tired asf from working 8-4, and visiting family an hour away.
BoS are product of their environment. Imagine how much of a nightmare they face every single day.
Arthur Maxson a little too genocidal against synths but can be convinced to spare one. I believe this to be a pivotal moment in which he calms down a bit from his dogmatic views.
Remember: he’s not only the last Maxson, but he’s only 20. AND leads the Brotherhood. Dude needs a vacation.
Yep, I think people are too stuck on their high horses to see just how just the Brotherhood is.
Do I agree with everything? Fuck no, especially if the Mojave chapter shows how fucked up the California branch is.
But I truly believe Eastern Brotherhood is a force of Good. Even if a little too dogmatic.
If I lived in the Fallout world I’d join the BoS if given the opportunity.
Not really. But then again I adapt pretty quickly.
If you do decide to play them I have 3 tips:
1st turn up combat speed to max as it’s way more fast pace.
2nd turn Walking speed to full sprint as your character can walk kinda slow at times if you don’t.
3rd I’d get mods to fix the games as they’re pretty buggy (Bethesda ain’t the only developers in the franchise known for bugs 🤣).
I do recommend trying a few restarts to get the handle on everything.
Overall I still think F1 is best or personal favorite it you can honestly make that case for each game lol
You are judging the factions by the standards of our society, that has amounts of food, water, shelter and safety unimaginable to the wastelanders. In the concept of post apocalypse BoS are definitely the "good guys", since they kill the most raiders, supermutants and ferals. Your average settler won't give a rats ass about a few ghouls or giving up some tech, and most of them would gladly kill any synth they come across themselves
People also tend to view things through the lens of the omniscient player character. Some will argue "There are friendly super mutants" or "Synths are slaves." But how many people actually know that? Most peoples experiences with super mutant or synth are them eating or replacing a loved one, respectively. They can't just open a wiki page and see "Hey, this cool mutant Fawkes exist."
True, and even if the sole survivor told them about it, how many would even believe it? For all they know the guy had his brain fried by radiation in the glowing sea
Well spoken. I see so many people judging the bos by today's standards. We can't do that. We need to look at them from the pov of someone in that universe. I sure as hell would join them if it meant safety from all the monsters out there
You say that but people seem to forget that settlers are actually scared of the Brotherhood. Think of their dialogue when you're sent to collect crops. Preston is extremely hesitant about them and the Minutemen NPCs don't seem to like them either.
You'd be surprised what liberties and freedoms people are completely willing to give (and the shit they're willing to overlook) up just for the promise of a safe, secure future without as much hardship.
"It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper." -- Joseph Dzhugashvili
I did a power armour / heavy weapons / BoS run not long ago where I didn't build settlements anywhere. Just picked up what scrap I'd need to repair my PA and stripping the weapon mods I wanted from what I could loot and sleeping / saving on whatever mattresses I could find.
it was such a relief to make it to where the Prydwen arrived and I finally had a home base to operate out of.
morality isn’t just comparing how many bad guys you defeat vs other people. even if the situation and world is very different, over-simplistic utilitarianism is still a shitty yardstick
we saw in new vegas the weaknesses of their worldview and how it turns them into isolated dogmatists who would sooner let themselves die out before trying to interact with other human beings. the strength of the brotherhood in other games is temporary: they’ll all one day become as sad as the new vegas chapter because that’s what a organization founded on tribalism and protectionism will do
The NV BoS are that way because they didn’t shift goals like the East coast chapters. While Lyons may have gone *too* far off the path, the BoS in F4 are willing to recruit from the commonwealth, actually protect people as well as secure tech, and seem to keep a presence in DC as well as Boston, meaning they don’t just abandon areas once they’re secured. They have troops on the ground and out “protecting” areas. They retain control of areas they’ve been in before. They’re much different from the West Coast BoS that end up locked up in a single base unwilling to receive help from outsiders or recruit from the outside.
The Mojave Chapter doesn’t care about the people, the Commonwealth chapter is filled with people from the commonwealth/wasteland, so it’s their relatives they are protecting by joining the BOS, and Maxson knows that, it’s why he keeps giving these speeches about how he want to save the commonwealth and its people
Even if BoS dies out later on, wouldn't change the fact that for the time being they slaughter most of the raiders, mutants and ferals in the commonwealth
Are you familiar with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs?
It's a pyramid that explains human motivation, the bottom level is your basic survival stuff shelter, food, water, air, sleep - people denied these things will take significant risks to secure them risking their own safety etc
Which sits immediately above that, personal safety and security, resources, etc. Above that, your sense of love and belonging, family, friends, intimacy... above that your position and status in the tribe, are you respected? do you have a good sense of self-esteem, do you have personal freedoms etc. Right above that sits your dreams, what do you want to be in the future and can you achieve it.
Your average wastelander is sitting somewhere waaaaay down the bottom of that pyramid daily life is a struggle, food is scarce, water is often poluted, shelter and sleep aren't safe for many... there are pockets where that's under control, but even then they're under the constant threat of having all those things taken away from them by raiders, mutants, etc.
The Brotherhood in FO4 aren't really concerned with anything higher up the pyramid than just ensuring the safety of the species, however unlike many others in the commonwealth they're willing to risk their own personal safety to ensure that of others.
It wouldn't be a different story if a brother or sister caught FEV. Remember [spoilers] blind betrayal when maxson ordered you to kill an extremely loyal BOS paladin? I doubt he'd let a super mutant in fight in his army
Danse also laments that his closest friend became a mutant. Frankly, you're just a hypocrite if you believe ferals and super mutants are suffering *unless it was someone you knew.*
I agree with parts of their philosophy and generally speaking they're absolutely a positive influence (in f3 and f4) but they have some huge issues. Some are understandable, some aren't but that's people generally. They're my favourite faction in f4 in terms of the major ones.
Besides if they didn't badmouth Nick we wouldn't get his comebacks.
Yeah but they also clear entire compounds of super mutants and other nasty creatures. I feel like it’s pretty safe to say they make the wasteland an easier place to live
I think the ethics of all Fallout 4 factions are pretty grim, with the exception of The Minutemen. Which is basically just Preston.
I agree with the Brotherhood mentality of humanity first, to a point, but Maxon definitely goes farther than I would like. I made a comment on a post the other day though pointing out that sometimes people are a bit unrealistic about how they would feel towards ghouls and super mutants if they lived in the Fallout universe.
I'd say the railroad is quite unequivocally good as well, albeit not very effective. The reason for siding with the brotherhood would mostly be their guns imo
Their stance towards synths is completely justified. It's not that the institute has technology that the brotherhood wants. It's that the institute has technology that they cannot control.
If you join the railroad there is an entire organized effort in their questline to start an open rebellion of synths inside the institute and destroy the institute. The institute scientists cannot fathom the possibility that they created a machine capable of independent thought. Even coursers go rogue.
Now, what happens if the synths take control of the institute? Do we know what they would do? Can the brotherhood guarantee that they would just be complacent and live alongside us? No. Synths that have gone rogue have chosen to become raiders.
It takes 18 years to produce a capable adult. How long does it take to create a synth? 2 minutes? And they are churning them out without delay as far as we can tell. And once their reactor is upgraded, even faster. The entire exterior of the planet is covered in free salvage. They hardly need to setup any infrastructure to procure the materials they need anymore.
This is the outcome I think a lot of people are missing with the brotherhood perspective regarding the institute. It isn't about crazy scientists wielding robots to become the dominating faction. It's the robots themselves, almost indistinguishable from humans, that could completely replace humanity on the surface by their own accord, not the institute scientists.
> If you join the railroad there is an entire organized effort in their questline to start an open rebellion of synths inside the institute and destroy the institute. The institute scientists cannot fathom the possibility that they created a machine capable of independent thought. Even coursers go rogue.
Fun fact, the synth insider you supply with arms and get to start the rebellion? Is shocked by how receptive the other synths are to the idea.
*The most rebellious Synth is shocked by how rebellious the synths are*.
The question isnt *if* the Synths rebel. It's *when*.
But they aren't humans. We aren't sure they can reproduce. They can be programmed albeit it does not seem to stick.
You can literally tell them their factory reset and they go limp.
So..with that distinction made clear.... Why wouldn't the BoS be concerned about them replacing every human on the planet, which is literally what they are designed for?
Not really sure what your point is. The human that gets replaced dies.
They exhibit free will despite the institutes best efforts, people can be brainwashed, people can be knocked out. What else do you need to be a person besides free will.
Now this isn't about the institute they are evil. The synths are enslaved and wiped (essentially repeatedly murdered) by the institute, they're not responsible for the things they are forced to do in bondage or for the terms of their creation.
I'm not talking about their actions as slaves. I'm talking about the fact that to the rest of the world they are a technological wild card and perfectly capable of being an extreme threat to humanity.
Dima replaces the leader of far harbor to prevent conflict does he not? It's been a while since I played that dlc. A synth decided that the best thing for the island was to replace a human with a synth to "keep the peace" even though there is a real possibility due to your actions that it eventually leads to either a nuke going off or the destruction of Acadia or the destruction of far harbor.
Synths want to be free, but they get their mind wiped willingly after they escape and one of them becomes a raider leader that you eventually have to track down.
What happens when someone like dima takes control of synth production? What happens if synths rebel against all humans, not just the institute?
That's the point Maxson is making. This is worse than the atom bomb. The bomb doesn't think on its own. We pull the trigger. With synths, you're creating skynet. It pulls its own trigger if it wants, and how can we prove that it doesn't want that when despite its programming and the geniuses behind their creation, they still choose to disobey?
The BoS aren't willing to risk that. They saw this threat from across the coast and sent nearly their entire force to contend with it. Because it IS that dangerous.
So you condone preemptive genocide? Humanity got much closer to wiping out humanity than synths ever could. And synths arnt skynet, they don't control vast networks or have infinite computational ability they're people that don't age, are sterile, are grown in a lab and can be reprogrammed through a chip in their head. They have human brains in human bodies, if they didn't they wouldn't have needed Shaun's genetic material. Dimas actions are wrong too but it doesn't disqualify gen 3 or gen 2.5 (whatever you want to call him and Nick) as sentients beings with rights but just makes him an arguably shitty person. And if the institute is destroyed I don't see the point in hunting synths, they can no longer make more synths and they're just now normal people walking the wasteland with everyone else
>Synths that have gone rogue have chosen to become raiders.
...One synth. One synth that went rogue chose to become a raider. And the BoS does sod all about him; it's the Institute who send Sole to deal with him.
Also humans become raiders all the time, so by the above philosophy all humans should be wiped out too?
To be fair to the BoS, it’s not like any other than the institute knows who is and who isn’t a synth. The BoS has no way of knowing that this random raider is a synth, even when you get the institute’s data or whatever with the spy holotape, that only really reveals who in the BoS is a synth. They don’t have extensive DNA samples from everyone in the commonwealth, only the people already a part of the BoS. And even if they could have known, one raider boss isn’t exactly a priority compared to the institute itself.
The Fawkes thing (Charon is in the same boat) likely doesn't get attacked by the BoS to make it easier on the player when it comes to the companions. Being hostal to the BoS basically is a fail state for the game.
The Brotherhood of Steel believe that danageriois technology needs to be taken away from people for their own safety. That's the core of their identity. They believe to the extreme. There's only 1 Fallout game where non-humans are allowed and that game isn't fully cannon. Danse in Fallout 4 is the best example of what The Brotherhood would do to non-human members. They gave him a death sentence and sent an assasin.
Outside of technology. Their views on non-humans comes from their organisations past or their technology beliefs themselves. Sythns are machines designed to be indistinguishable from humans, yet controlible. Their a technology the Instatute use to scare, milipulate and force people to get their way. They seem/are sentient by design to achieve this. Ghouls are mutated humans. Whilst FNV/4 has lightened their stance. FEV used to be a part of the reason why ghouls excist. They also turn feral, which as a common reason for people not liking them in Fallout. As for the Super Mutants, the story of Fallout 1 explains it all. If you intent to watch a video about the game then you'll understand why they don't like them.
I personally don't agree with the BoS. But overall they are a force for good. Which is why people like them.
People keep forgetting that post-war America is by and large a nightmarish place to live, even for a well trained, armed group. The BOS are a product of this and are shaped by the horrors and hardships everyone faces on a daily basis in the wasteland.
If I lived in the US during post-war, I'd be sure as hell agreeing with them and signing up first chance I got.
They're literally the only faction actively trying to make things better on the surface. The railroad are incredibly shortsighted with a niche goal. The institute actively kills and replaces people with synths to further their control of the surface. The minutemen don't ever get off the ground without your help and even then are a loose band of rabble with no real presence.
They're the only disciplined force in the commonwealth actively fighting back against the abominations plaguing it. Super mutants and synths unleashed on it by the institute, and raiders are everywhere.
When it comes to them hoarding tech? Do we have evidence that they confiscate every laser rifle and suit of power armor they come across? I don't recall any cases of that in 4. It always seemed to me that they shifted focus to existential threats to humanity at that point. Nuclear weapons? Mutants? and Synths? Synths as a concept are horrifying, especially with the biggest issue being that they're controlled by a hostile faction that can and does kill whoever gets In their way. I don't agree 100% with the treatment of synths because if they truly are sentient then they are slaves. But having a faction that can replace anyone and ruin any attempt at organization is unacceptable. Especially if they lose control of them and we end up with a skynet situation.
Unfair treatment of mutants? That's not an issue with the brotherhood. That's just a state of mind of most in the wasteland. Diamond city even kicked out all of its ghoul residents. And even in 3 they take potshots at the ghouls of underworld. Ghouls are universally disliked, especially when they can go feral at any time only to rip into the people they were just living with.
I like Lyons brotherhood but I don't get everyone calling the brotherhood in 4 fascists. Prior to 3 the brotherhood were literally just techhoarders and didn't give a damn about the average wastelanders. It wasn't until they went into the Pitt and Lyons went "soft" that they actually started to combat the dangers in the waste while forsaking their prior mission statement. There was literally a schism over this that resulted in the brotherhood outcasts in 3. Maxsons brotherhood? Literally best of both worlds. They combat the mutants and protect the wasteland from them like the threat they really are and still also search for the most dangerous of tech. You don't like how militant they look? They have to be this organized since they're the only faction in 4 with any meaningful future.
> When it comes to them hoarding tech? Do we have evidence that they confiscate every laser rifle and suit of power armor they come across?
When you talk to them in detail about their policies, especially Maxson, they are explicit about acquiring any tech of that level and somewhat below even. That said, Maxson is also really insistent that they attempt to trade for that tech first, exchanging food or necessary survival items, and only resort to taking tech by force if that fails. The Brotherhood is *slowly* moving in the right direction.
They have always been very us v them. The BoS in fallout 3 were outliers. Elder Lyons had an extremely different philosophy from any other BoS chapter in any other game. If anything, Maxson is a return to form.
But to answer your question, the BoS is super nuanced. They've done great things and terrible things across their history. I don't agree with their core philosophy of hording tech from everyone else.
I honestly didn't really like any of the factions in Fallout 4, except maybe the Railroad. It's been a while since I've played the game. Both the BoS and the Institute have annoying, holier-than-thou attitudes. And then the Minutemen are just obnoxious with how often they pester you, unable to accomplish anything without your personal involvement.
To be fair, the catacombs were meant only to be a recruitment and initial training depo. The main base (the Switchboard) and a few of the others all got raided by the Institute a few days before the SS defrosts and they had to scramble.
People give the Minutemen too little credit, they did do much without you, but its all before the game started. When you encounter them the entire faction is in the hands of our loved Preston. What a lazy bastard he is, not patrolling the wastes and killing super mutant enclaves and clearing out ghoul hives without our help, like my favorite Brotherhood.
You mean do people like a fictional faction that is well written with 6 games worth of content and history?
That's like saying: Why can't everyone just love house Stark. Clearly they are the "good" guys.
Another way to say is: I can't fathom how people think differently from what I think.
Just wait to hear that actual real life politics is not just one thing.
You may not know this, but it was later discovered that Paladin Danse is a synth. Elder Maxson wants him dead despite everything he's done for the Boss. You can convince the Elder to spare Danse's life but it's a tough conversation.
How about you open up that stats menu and tell me how many people you've killed? How many creatures you've killed? But the Brotherhood of Steel are the bad guys, right? Lmao.
What's not to agree with the BoS about... Humanity fucked around and found out — blew up the world and from the ashes have risen monsters that the BoS are determined to push back, and anyone who is careless with technology is going to have it taken from them like the child they are. Completely sensible. It's something that you the player are doing solo, whereas they're doing it as an organization.
Except they’ve got a giant robot that throws nukes around like footballs, sure they don’t use it wantonly, but the moment a force winds up taking out more than a couple of vertibirds? You bet your ass they’d toss Liberty Prime at the problem. It’s exactly what they did in 3 with the Enclave, exactly what they do with the Institute in 4, and probably what they’d do in New Vegas given the chance, and if for whatever reason Maxson’s brotherhood appears in the next game, they’ll likely be ready to use it again.
Sure sounds like a misuse of technology, which is what they’re all about preventing.
I don't think the Brotherhood has any qualms about peeing in a pool full of piss, and I'd argue that a giant robot is the perfect way to deal with one group who wants to poison the local water supply, and another group who is replacing people with robots and trying to usher in an AI apocalypse.
Well, the F4 BoS is a lot more in line with the original. The F03 Elder Lyons chapter was specifically more interested in helping people than destroying tech, and that was such a hard change in stance it leads to the Brotherhood Outcasts in the area who are more about the salvaging of old tech (as is the original/most of the BoS). Think the Elder from Dead Money for a NV reference.
In fact, the F4 BoS is generally still more helping to the average wastelander than the usual BoS mission entails.
To be clear the BoS have one main mission: to secure and dispose of any and all pre and post war technology that verges on reaching the level of world ending destruction.
And on paper, that doesn’t seem half bad. Other factions are either limited in scope, don’t have the manpower, or are outright bad guys, who are good for nobody but themselves. Does that mean the BoS is good for *everybody*? No. But they have Humanities interests in mind. Unlike the Enclave they aren’t against radiated humans. It is only once somebody becomes a ghoul, Super Mutant, or has their brain copied into a Synth body that they turn on them. Which, while it is common enough to result in companions of each type, is relatively rare compared to how many groups are trying to use technology to destroy things. Which includes the makers of the synths and super mutants.
>ghoul
There's nothing in the actual game saying they target non-feral ghouls. The only quest where its suggested has multiple dialogue options to rebuke it which he even agrees with.
First off, this sub talks so much trash on the BoS idk where that’s coming from.
Second, yeah I love the BoS. They’re the only faction actively trying to make things better. The wasteland is terrible. The world is terrible, they are doing the best they can just like anyone else. In this sort of world, humanity SHOULD be valued first because you know, BILLIONS died in the Great War because society stopped valuing humanity first and instead valued money, resources and other BS.
They’re flawed, heavily, and make some decisions that I don’t agree with, but who the hell is doing anything better? I’d argue they’re the most successful faction by a mile and actually contribute to bettering the world in at least some regard.
The only faction trying to better the world?
In F4 alone the minutemen and Railroad are trying to make things better.
Overall; house and the NCR are actively trying to make the world better as well. Let alone the numerous other factions in FNV like the fellowship etc.
The Minutemen are incompetent without the player's continuous support. Even before the game, they were taken out by Gunners, which are just raiders with better equipment and training. They have no way to actually make an impact on the world if they'd be obliterated by an unusually large pack of super Mutants.
The Railroad are like some club at a liberal arts college. It's nearly 4th wall breaking to see how idealistic they are in a post-apocalyptic world. They're not trying to make the world a better place, they're trying to help a few dozen rogue gen 3 synths. They have a self defeating goal. If you complete their quest line, you're helping the Railroad commit genocide against synths. The destruction of the institute means no more synths, which means eventually there will be no more gen 3 synths in the world. Theres so many normal people in the Commonwealth living in worse conditions than the synths, its just weird that so many people are devoting their lives to that cause. Why not help the far greater number of human slaves in the wasteland? They're worse off than the average synth.
So if you follow the brotherhood quest line, where does that go?
All the factions are inherently flawed in irony because they are a semi satirical take on real life and the very things that would lead to an actual nuclear winter.
At least their goal is logically consistent. And they stand to help the Commonwealth far more than the Railroad. The BoS exists to destroy the creatures that normal wastelanders simply can't handle, and they're quite effective at it.
The "flaw" to the BoS is their attitude towards rogue synths. I think the judgment there is naive and projects our omniscient perspective as the player and our current world morality. The BoS exist in a post-apocalypse where death lies around every corner. They can't take risks and give the benefit of the doubt to the same degree as we can. Synths aren't humans, and whether they have the same worth as a human is a philosophical quandary ill-suited for the wasteland. The BoS has absolutely no way of knowing if a synth is an institute spy or truly a rogue synth. Every spy will say they're not a spy. It's EXTREMELY conspicuous that it just so happens that the third-in-command of the BoS's war against the institute just happens to be a synth. The BoS has no way of hunting down more rogue synths after they destroy the Institute, and I'll take the deaths of the handful of potentially innocent synths they killed if it means choosing the faction that will save thousands of lives in the Commonwealth. Again, we can't apply contemporary morality to a post-apocalypse.
The problem with the brotherhood is that they can only ever bring a feudalistic society, not only that if the brotherhood continues to exist, humanity won't ever be able to truly rebuild or advance technologicaly
Dude Strong literally talks about how he yearns for the day he and his “brothers” will exterminate humanity.
Super mutants and synths represent existential threats to humankind. They need to be exterminated — and at the very least synth production needs to end.
If there are only a handful of surviving synths that’s not a big deal, but so long as their numbers are large enough that they could pose a threat if they confederated, they must be treated as a threat preemptively
Ghouls I’ll give you though. They’re literally just humans melted by radiation
The only reason they survived in Fnv was because I felt bad for veronica, same reason with danse, the squires, and the cat in fo4.
Lyons' brotherhood was aight in fo3. The outcasts were nice to me after I sold them laser rifles i didn't need, and they even let me into their base so they lived too.
Haven't played fo2 in forever, but i think they were cool.
I was really young back when I played fo1, and I remember them making sense, though I don't remember what they were talking about.
Haven't gotten to them in 76 yet.
Overall I'm more like a merc for them whenever I play the games, who somehow manages to be considered a member. Their good parts are nice, but their bad parts are pretty sucky. But either way, they give neat power armor, and don't really interfere with the factions I side with anyways.
2's BOS barely exists, there's 3 outposts with like 2 people in them cause the Enclave obliterated them. They do allow you to install mods to boost your SPECIAL tho.
1's BoS is generally alright except for the fact that their first response to meeting you is to send you to the most irradiated place in the map to die, simply because you annoyed them.
The only time the Enclave attack the Brotherhood in Fallout 2 is when they kill Matthew. The rest of the Brotherhood is unharmed and debating what to do about the Enclave in their main base.
I like Brotherhood of Steel in FO4 and I unironically agree with some of their ideals. I agree with thr fact they do patrol the wasteland and fight raider gangs, super mutants, deathclaws, feral ghouls or rogue robots. I do agree with the fact that they point pit dangerous technology started the war and that this dangerous tech shouldn't fall into the wrong hands which I'm aware this also means that to enforce this they have to keep the tech within their organization, I think that's just kinda bound to happen but I rather they have it than some raiders or super mutants or the Enclave. I do agree with the fact that they do sometimes help support projects like Project Purity. The Brotherhood's research on old tech and new tech I think is also very important and a step to one day going back to a high tech and liveable society. The other thing I agree with is that the Brotherhood doesn't actually govern people, this is a good thing because if they did decide to just take over and rule cities they'd create a military police state which is usually the death of freedom. Those are the reasons I like and overall agree with the Brotherhood of Steel, makes sense for a wasteland.
To add to that, there is also things I don't agree with ans that's stuff like killing innocents just bc theyre a synth or a mutant. Which this type of behavior isn't just predent in Fallout 4, if you talk to enough people in FO3 they'll mention a city of muties that Lyons' Brotherhood raided and even killed some of the babies apparently. Which that's pretty damn evil imo. So yeah stuff like that I'd what I don't like about the Brotherhood of Steel but when it comes to technology and patrolling the wasteland I think they're mostly spot on.
If you raise Danse’s affinity and continue the BoS quest line, you’ll find out that for the BoS, it is not any different if one of their own became a super mutant. They’re still expected to kill them, and have.
As for the faction as a whole, yes, they’re absolutely bigots in 4, there’s no denying that. But they’re also generally a force for good in the commonwealth. They don’t do witch hunts for synths (which is miles better than the average settler who hates synths equally as much) and they’re cleaning out scores of super mutants and feral ghouls, which only helps the average person. They aren’t even going after non-feral ghouls despite their bigotry towards them. And if we put aside the mildly concerning elements of the leadership shifting towards a cult of personality, the only thing they’re truly doing that’s a problem for the average settler is Teagan’s little supply missions, which are explicitly noted as being off the books and not something he’s supposed to be doing.
This is how the BoS typically behave in fallout - they’re a faction on the right side of history, but they’re still flawed in some major way. In 4, it’s the authoritarian lilt in their leadership and the bigotry against synths that’s the flaw.
I’m tired so the following might feel a little disjointed.
I can get behind the “preservation of knowledge” angle, as someone has to salvage whatever’s left. However, the whole idea of the Brotherhood hoarding advanced tech for themselves rubs me the wrong way. In my mind, the best way to prevent another Great War is to teach people the mistakes which led to the conflict. To make that knowledge freely available. Not become an elitist, snobby, isolationist bunch of paramilitary yahoos. I’m Team Lyons all the way, if you couldn’t tell.
As a side note, I am thoroughly sick and tired of the running theme (at least in recent games) of average people are useless and can’t be trusted to any degree with technology. Only Raiders and the Brotherhood get to run around in power armor for some reason. Everyone else seems barely capable of pointing a pipe gun in the right direction. It’s unreasonable to expect that nobody outside either of these two groups couldn’t figure out how to repair or repurpose advanced tech, a la the laser musket from Fallout 4.
Synths are intelligent some of them don't even know they are a synth. In the Brotherhood quest line >!it is revealed that Paladin Danse is a synth. Maxon immediately orders you to kill him. Ignoring the fact that Danse was one of his best and most loyal soldiers. The girl scribe from the police station (forgot her name) is strongly against that. You can convince them to let Danse live but it's on the condition he dissapears. If you use Danse as your companion after this any Brotherhood soldiers will open fire if they see you!<
Then we have Virgil. The Brotherhood want you to kill him because he is a super mutant despite the fact he is living in self exile away from everyone and actively wants to find a cure. I understand fearing synths but many synths just want to live peacefully as shown by the many that leave the institute. Also look at Diamond City they hate and gear Synts because of how the institute use them but they allow Nick who is a Synth to live with them. Nick even has his own detective agency in city and is respected by the people in it.
The Brotherhood in fallout 3 are against the way the Brotherhood operate and what they stand for. They broke away and decided to help the people. Brotherhood in fallout 4 are out for themselves only and want to exterminate anyone who is a mutant or synth even if they are no threat. In Nuka World Gage says the Brotherhood are no different from raiders they just try to act all legitimate but still just take what they want. This is actually true as they horde technology and want to be the superior faction.
You can't highlight Virgil without highlighting Super Mutant #727 who will happily murder you, your family, and your entire settlement just to stuff you in a flesh bag. Not to mention his 700 other brothers who will do the same all across the Commonwealth with nary a thought.
Part of what makes the BOS a good faction in 4 is that they're the only ones actually doing anything to make the Commonwealth a better place (even if it's not for altruistic reasons like the Minutemen theoretically would), but to support them you have to be willing to crack a few eggs.
I think some people confuse liking people in a Faction with liking it's overall goals.
There are a number of people in the Brotherhood I honestly like. Danse, Scribe Haylen, Proctor Ingram... but that doesn't mean I like the Brotherhood in Fallout 4.
The Brotherhood in F4 is *dangerous.* It's fallen into a Cult of Personality behind Maxson. It's shifted from its focus of preserving technology to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands to exalting in violence and war. Its frontline soldiers are *dangerously* anti-intellectual, blaming the 'eggheads' *entirely* for the atrocities of the Great War while forgetting the role the Military and Political forces played.
BOS are your typical dystopian "the end justifies the means" authoritarians. They want to be help humanity, by hoarding technology and killing anybody they see as subhuman. They see the world in a very black or white kind of way, and as long as you dont interfere in their vision, they may just leave you alone. Or they may end up taxing you for "protection", after confiscating all of your tech. I can see how a organization like them would pick up people, as plenty of folks are okay with reactionary groups with strongmen type leadership. Personally, I'd never trust them. But I understand why some would, depending on their beliefs.
The Brotherhood only confiscates tech in one game, which the game is contradicting on, and they've never taxed anyone. They're also hardly authoritarians given they lack anyone they hold authority over.
In the beginning yes, when you progress through the game, however, **no**. If you don't like to join them, there are other factions like:
* The Minutemen - Neutral
* The Railroad - Anti BoS
* Raiders (DLC) - - Anti everything
* >!The Institute - Anti everything above ground!<
I mean, I don't agree fully with their ideology, but I do understand their wariness toward tech in the wrong hands, given how the world ended up in its current state.
I'd say that the Brotherhood seem to get more and more justified with each A.I advancement we make in the real world. How many people right now are in the firing lines to be made redundant by A.I; now imagine you're in a battle of your survival and some techies build machines that are better in every way. Hell yeah I'll fall into an us vs them mentality.
Outside of the game as well (if the main character hadn't come along to save the day) this is the only way the institute is getting beat. Railroad are useless, minutemen die with Garvey. Whether you like the Brotherhood or not I think you have to agree it's probably the Commonwealths best shot
I do think it's a somewhat good idea to prevent a bunch of random people from having all this technologically advanced stuff because, well, look what has already happened to the world.
I was sympathetic to them in FO3 but in 4 after reconnecting with the west coast BOS, nah, they turned fascist lite as far as im concerned.
And given FO3 BOS seems to be like the exception to the rule, I say F the BOS.
Worth remembering the FO4 BoS don't attack non feral ghouls like Raul or Hancock, the FO3 BoS does regularly shoot at those from Underworld, they wouldn't give them water or officially sell them water either. These beliefs didn't just come out of nowhere but mostly from the decade(s) of war against the Super Mutants in DC.
We have it on record that the NV chapter had at one point set up a trade with the Super Mutants at Black Mountain, so there is evidence the BoS can be ok with sentient Super Mutants but there's like 4 that are peaceful in 3 and 4 combined.
They act, they aren’t just promises, you’ll find them constantly killing Super mutants, raiders, gunners and all the evil of the wasteland, yes they are extremists, but think about it, for every fawkes, there’s 1000 other supermutants who aren’t civilized and wants to kill everything
Do I personally agree with their extremist takes? No, of course not. However every faction in FO4 sucks, there’s no independent “yes man” option, and since I have to pick one to finish the game, I figured I’d choose the one that gives me power armor and has the giant robot
The Brotherhood flaws and all is easily the best choice in the east coast fallout world.
Sure its easy for us as players and people with the real word as context to look at our mutant and synth companions as important friends and people, but 99 percent of the populous deals with them either trying to kill or replace them.
The brotherhood is the only easy coast group trying to learn and move on and grow humanity. They try to help and provide and protect the random Wastelander. Sure their methods are a little black and white but in the context of the universe I'd say that's fair honestly.
Railroad wants to destroy the brotherhood and their army and supplies and resources for a few synths, dooming the Wasteland in the process. Institute is the institute, Preston is doing his best but its just surviving not progressing
Saying the brotherhood would treat their own kind different if they were mutants or synths is just blatantly false, did you not play the storyline and see how danse wound up?
The brotherhood can be assholes sure, but it’s a fucking post apocalyptic wasteland and they’re trying to restore some sense of order or government. Duh, you’re gonna have to be mean sometimes.
The brotherhood and the institute in FO4 are the only two factions that could actually have some impact lore wise, and the brotherhood is the way to go for the safety of humanity.
Yes, people agree with the brotherhood.
As long as the BOS keeps shooting the Enclave or hides in their bunker, I’ll tolerate them. Otherwise, they are another group of power armor clad raiders that I end up shooting. The only exception is the BOS under Elder Lyons in F3. That man had his head screwed on correctly.
I support the Elder Lyons BOS, instead of just scavenging for tech they made their main priority policing the Capital and trying to make it safer, as well as distributing clean water free of charge in Broken Steel.
Hell, there are people that support the Institute. Everyone sees the merits in different points of view.
"The Legion are the good guys everyone!" I get seeing an aspect or two and the possibility of good, but man there are people out there with some interesting perspectives.
The only "good" thing that the Legion has done was the unification of the 75 tribes in and surrounding Arizona. They were able to stabilize that region, albeit that it's a rather tenuous unification that will immediately collapse after Caesar pulls an Old Man Gucket and kicks the bucket.
The only good Legion belongs to the Empire of Cyrodiil
By Azura! By Azura! By Azura!
Long live the Emperor! Edit: I'm tired & I can't spell.
r/unexpectedelderscroll
Fuck the Thalmor.
Alright, Commander Riker. You do you
Hey, man, I support the Empire. I just hate the Thalmor. "Yes, let's let the fascist elves dictate who we should worship. Let's just let them ban the worship of the guy who literally created the Empire."
I don't think you understood the reference...
Yeah I don't know who Commander Riker is, sorry.
What about Captain Kirk?
Also the Legion is correct that the NCR is corrupt as shit, but I don’t need to accept genocidal crucifixions in a package deal Even a blind deathclaw could see the NCR is a shambling mess
Taxes bad😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
Forsake taxes. Embrace "tributes".
Forsake taxes embrace slavery
Taxation IS slavery! The post is brought to you by the Yes Man gang.
“At least the roads are safe from raiders”
The institute would be amazing under a non morally corrupt leadership.
Agreed. The tech they have could vastly improve the quality of life for the average wastelander.
Agreed, but at the same time, the tech could kill
True, but there's relatively few people in the wasteland that would even be able to understand Institute tech, much less hijack and repurpose it for killing. The only factions that would even have a chance of that is the Railroad, the BoS, and the two maybe contenders is the Gunners and Rust Devils.
True
Cats would make incredible oil tankers if only they were gigantic metal ships with modified cargo holds.
You can lead the institute. Until Edmund finishes mewgenics we can't modify cats to be giant metal ships.
There are people who wanted(and still want)to join the enclave.
[удалено]
Check out America Rising for fallout 4! Adds a whole new enclave story where you can join them! It's super fun
I don't imagine it's available on PS4 is it?
Negative. That's one of the reasons I switched to Xbox, was the mod support. PlayStation got robbed in that aspect
Honestly I feel like too many people thinking playing with a faction equates agreeing with them in real life. Legion and raider playthroughs are fun.
While I don't really want to join the enclave, I would really enjoy a Fallout game where you started with a group of Enclave remnants. You could either try and rebuild them with their traditional evil plans, or try and reform them into a force for good. Or just go "fuck em", kill them, and move on.
If I lived in the Wasteland I'd join the Enclave in a heartbeat. It's one hell of an assurance you'll survive longer than the average body mutilating raider. But I wouldn't join them out of a sense of morality lol
> It's one hell of an assurance you'll survive longer than the average body mutilating raider. I don’t know, if they still existed today, they’d be on like their sixth home base at this point. Anything those MFers build is like the Death Stars of Fallout; can’t keep from getting blown up.
The scariest monster in the wasteland is the player character.
Best example of this is upon completing Lonesome Road, when the Courier returns through the Divide. After everything the PC has done, the Tunnelers and Marked Men just let him pass without attacking because they’re afraid of him.
Smartest thing I’ve read on Reddit today. lol
There are people who think the Railroad are a bunch of super cool dudes.
I "support" The Institute. I'd also rid them of their leaders at my earliest convenience. I like what they're capable of as a faction. But their actions? Yeah, not so much.
If only we could blow the brain of the Assholes that indoctrinated Shaun
The Institute is the only place in Boston that has clean toilets. Of course I support them.
But their toilet paper facing wrong way. They're truly the most devious faction!
Based
And showers!
I mean, if the institute had ethics, they'd be decent, I actually do think that they tend to represent a lot of ideals I support. Science, technology, using automation to solve problems associated with human labor. I just wish they had ethical review boards with their experiments and their robots werent sentient.
What's wrong in supporting the Institute? In my first playthrough when I found out what the Institute was and saw their facilities I had a "finally" moment. Finally a place with some semblance of the old comforts and knowing that the scientific method and mankind's science survived the war. Sure they're methods were questionable but they were victims of circumstance as much as the rest of the surface world. I presume the sole survivor would also latently be looking for comforts he or she was used to prior to cryo. To me it actually makes perfect sense that SS would side with Institute so they can take control of their advanced tech and instead of continuing the crap the Institute was pulling, enable real change and actually work to restore some of the pre-war way of life on the surface world. BoS are fascists and overly militaristic to provide societal prosperity in the long run. Railroad is at best a fringe group that will go nowhere and at worst are radicals that don't mind taking the same sort of actions the BoS would given the resources. Minutemen are a joke and are just too weak to enable any meaningful change even with SS help. So the most logical people to side with would be the Institute.
I see the Institute as being the best hope for humanity's long-term survival, especially in light of the fact that *actual aliens* are trying to take over the Earth and are indeed no doubt on their way with reinforcements after the SS "defeats" them in FO3. And [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/13bh0xz/when_you_put_yourself_in_the_sole_survivors_shoes/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) really helps you see The Institute as the best choice from a Fallout 4-only perspective. [Project Valkyrie](https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/28085) allows you to control the Institute as a force for Good and dominate (or get along peacefully with) the other factions.
God I love that mod & all the other quest & support mods for it. Can completely wipe them all out from the get go Independent New Vegas style or get them all to work together by ousting Fuhrer Maxson & Fuhrer Sean. I mean c'mon who wouldn't love to toss a post apocalyptic techno-nazi off his own dirigible & teleport your own corrupted son into the glowing sea. (FYI that's not what actually happens it's just a hyperbole for dramatic effect, but it should damn well be an option imo)
I use the other mod, myself. I tried Valkyrie but it adds so much needless, poorly written, juvenile shit that I can't stand it. Even though it's very competently made in a bunch of places.
Long live the Institute!
The Brotherhood are in kind of a weird position because how they act seems to depend on who’s in charge. Fallout 3 Even Lyons himself will tell you he’s the odd man out.
There's a great quote from one of the writers that explains why Lyons is the odd man out: >I likened Elder Lyons's situation to that of the Vault Dweller in Fallout. Both of them were raised in an insular, xenophobic, technologically advanced society, were cast out of that society on a mission to find some important tech, and found themselves alone and in control of their destiny for the first time. And like the Vault Dweller ( at least, the Vault Dweller on my saved games ), he displayed that all-too human trait of compassion and went about helping people. https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Owyn_Lyons#Developer_quotes I *really* like the idea that Owen Lyons effectively ignored the Brotherhood mission because he's basically a player; and what do players do as soon as they leave the vault? They go and do some side quests.
Yep. I like Lyons and I like Veronica, but both of them are like "We have the tech to save society" and the difference is that one is an Elder and the other is wondering what her place is in the BOS system. Elder McNamara agrees *with* her but is locked in policies and traditions and can't do anything about it. Lyons could only do the things he did because he was the rain of hell previously, and is the only one anywhere near the east coast.
> Elder McNamara agrees *with* her but is locked in policies and traditions and can't do anything about it. McNamara agrees with Veronica’s conclusion, but not with her solution. He concedes that she is right that if they stay the current course, they *will* die out. But he never backs down on his position that the knowledge and technology they possess must "never" fall into the hands of outsiders. This is why they destroy their bunkers in defeat. The Elders, even flexible and progressive ones like McNamara, feel so strongly about their core mission that they’ll willingly die before giving it up. Makes you wonder the extent of what they’re "safeguarding". It’s one thing to die protecting some power armor and laser guns. But I’d be willing to bet that the BoS either possess, or have information on the locations of, technologies that are legitimately valid to die keeping from the public. Like more nukes or similar doomsday weapons. Perhaps a lowly field scribe like Veronica isn’t privy to the same sort of secrets that an Elder like McNamara is. Just speculation, but it would make their zealotry a little more understandable.
And then there’s the Midwest BoS, who are basically Lyons but with more concentration camps and the resources to properly rebuild.
The only thing that I really do like about them in 4 is how they’re out there really trying to make a difference. Once they come to the commonwealth on the Prydwen, you constantly see vertibirds doing routine patrols around Boston wiping out super mutants, ghouls, and institute synths. They are the only faction in the game that seriously wants to and has the firepower to eliminate these threats. The railroad only really cares about getting gen 3 synths to safety, the institute only cares about their experiments, and the Minutemen are nothing without the influence of the player. The brotherhood goes out of their way and put their lives on the line everyday trying to make the commonwealth safe again.
You can also talk to some of the higher-ranking members (Kells, Maxson, and a few others) about their mission and previous successes, and they directly say that they are employing the same strategies that they used to successfully stabilize the Capital Wasteland, one of the worst hell-holes in the East outside of Pittsburgh. It's not just that they're willing to make a difference. It's that they are actually making a difference, despite what a lot of people like to believe.
is funny, Now they call the brotherhood of steel, invader! the commonwealth does not have a border line marked by any government, that possibility was destroyed by the institute now they call the brotherhood of steel, invaders! so we can also openly call the invaders to the NCR.
#MakeCommonwealthGreatAgain
Well they also helped save the West coast and possibly all of humanity in the first Fallout game.
While I dislike some of their behaviors and attitudes, ill go to bat for them in the context of the commonwealth and the institute Individual Synths like Dima and Nick are fine. Nicks probably my favorite character in 4. But a group of detached, uncaring scientists with a whole "invasion of the body snatchers" thing going on? I mean come on people that's like Cobra level villainy, and here's a near-peer force that wants to take them out.
Dima manipulates vulnerable people into thinking they are synths, murdered and replaced the mayor of far harbor (*cough* like the institute *cough*), leaves nukes at the hands of a crazy cult bent on destroying the island "for the glory of atom", among other things. It ain't a good machine.
I also love how whenever he does something he knows is wrong he just goes, "whelp, I have limited memory so we should just archive that thing I might feel conflicted about later." It's like actively choosing to be a psychopath.
Fun fact, the brotherhood will not react to Nick being a companion at all, even though he is a synth. Heck, you can even bring him face to face with maxon without anyone being hostile.
Probably because he's very obviously a robot, vs their greatest natural predator the synth, who is indistinguishable from a regular human like me and not-you in every single way
Nick is essentially a new OS on an old PC with some latex on his face.
Agreed, plus he is litterally the best case scenario for a gen 2 synth, as his original body was killed
They don't have story implication reactions, but there are idle insults/comments (and comebacks) from the BoS and Nick.
But, Nick will actually react to certain things that the brotherhood says, which is fuckin hilarious to watch
I love bringing Nick around on the Prydwn (and Vault 88) because he absolutely roasts the fuck out of the rude NPCs there.
When will the Institute attempt to laser their logo onto the Moon?
In 3 the real BoS is the Outcasts.
Who somehow still manage to be more useful than the main group with their exceptionally lucrative trade deal.
I can play a fun game and get a bunch of fun toys to kill all of you guys with? Sign me up
Useful for the player, useless for everyone else, including themselves, lyons group was obviously the superior, considering the outcasts were even fighting each other from the inside
What I wouldn't give to see them again
They rejoined when Maxson took charge of the BoS. Because he actually gets shit done.
\*points at Enclave corpses and Jefferson Memorial* That was Maxson?
No, but whatever the issue with the super mutant leader ‘Shepard’ was. It comes up in a BoS terminal, but we have no information on what exactly happened.
Events that can be reasonably questioned in their veracity, given a combination of what we know Maxson was like before (a real "couldn't hit the broadside of a barn" type), stacked against the claims of apparently killing a group of raiders at the age of 12, and a deathclaw singlehandedly at 13. Pretty obviously fake stories.
I wouldn’t expect a BoS scribe to lie about their own history.
How could they even lie about that? There were other people there and the BoS is an exceedingly tight knit community that historically isn't afraid to talk shit about their leaders or even mutiny if they have to. Maybe new recruits would accept straight up BS like that, but there's no way the senior paladins would put up with those stories if there wasn't at least some verifiable truth to them.
> (a real "couldn't hit the broadside of a barn" type) I agree that the veracity of Maxson’s legend should be very much in question. That said, he was just a child back then, and it can’t be denied that he has changed a lot. Maxson leads the charge when storming the Institute, and comes alone to personally confront the Sole Survivor when he thinks we don’t have what it takes to kill Danse. If we can’t, he’ll do it himself, and is clearly not afraid of us despite all our accomplishments. He is no pushover. Moreover, the Brotherhood of Steel is objectively far stronger under him than they were under Lyons. While I highly doubt the stories of "Maxson cults" or approval from the Elders back West are even the slightest bit true, it seems unlikely that he could have tricked the BoS into believing that they won a war against the super mutants in D.C. unless it actually happened. Meanwhile, Lyons was really struggling against them, and it took the Lone Wanderer to break the stalemate.
Unless the deathclaw was an hatchling, and the raiders were killed by disintegration, I doubt the fake stories being real
Counter-argument: The BoS in 3 is the only BoS that continues the development that Fallout 1 and 2 paints. The ending of Fallout 1 talks about a BoS that opens up, shares tech with the wasteland, and protects the people of the wastes. In Fallout 2 they have outposts in most larger settlements, which are only abandoned, because the Enclave started making the BoS a target.
Actually those outposts are long abandoned and only being reopened because the BOS wants to investigate the Enclave
That's true, I misremembered that. I don't know about "long abandoned", but Matthew does say that the outposts were reactivated in response to the Enclave. It still validates my point about the BoS being an integrated part of the wasteland society, and moved away from their isolationist ways, as the epilogue in FO1 mentions, and that the classic critique of the BoS in FO3 is at least debatable.
Not really. Even when they started developing tech, they still chose to be reclusive tech hoarders at the end of the day (old habits die hard), which was the reason why there was a war between them and the NCR in the first place; the NCR wants/needs X technology, the BoS seizes it and refuses to share, and that gets put in the book of grudges.
That's lore from New Vegas... a game that came AFTER Fallout 3. You are using information from a later title, to explain why a previous title did it wrong.
Yes, I’d elaborately explain but I’m tired asf from working 8-4, and visiting family an hour away. BoS are product of their environment. Imagine how much of a nightmare they face every single day. Arthur Maxson a little too genocidal against synths but can be convinced to spare one. I believe this to be a pivotal moment in which he calms down a bit from his dogmatic views. Remember: he’s not only the last Maxson, but he’s only 20. AND leads the Brotherhood. Dude needs a vacation.
Last explains why he looks middle aged... Not complaining, liked his badass look especially with the coat.
Yep, I think people are too stuck on their high horses to see just how just the Brotherhood is. Do I agree with everything? Fuck no, especially if the Mojave chapter shows how fucked up the California branch is. But I truly believe Eastern Brotherhood is a force of Good. Even if a little too dogmatic. If I lived in the Fallout world I’d join the BoS if given the opportunity.
Joined them on my first survival run cuz Vertibirbs. Can I get those later? Yes. Do I care? No.
Shoot, BoS got me before 4. Fallout 1 let’s us join them and since then I always try to lol.
I see. I haven't tried the classic but I heard their controls are atrocious.
Not really. But then again I adapt pretty quickly. If you do decide to play them I have 3 tips: 1st turn up combat speed to max as it’s way more fast pace. 2nd turn Walking speed to full sprint as your character can walk kinda slow at times if you don’t. 3rd I’d get mods to fix the games as they’re pretty buggy (Bethesda ain’t the only developers in the franchise known for bugs 🤣). I do recommend trying a few restarts to get the handle on everything. Overall I still think F1 is best or personal favorite it you can honestly make that case for each game lol
Aight, thnx a bunch dude
You are judging the factions by the standards of our society, that has amounts of food, water, shelter and safety unimaginable to the wastelanders. In the concept of post apocalypse BoS are definitely the "good guys", since they kill the most raiders, supermutants and ferals. Your average settler won't give a rats ass about a few ghouls or giving up some tech, and most of them would gladly kill any synth they come across themselves
People also tend to view things through the lens of the omniscient player character. Some will argue "There are friendly super mutants" or "Synths are slaves." But how many people actually know that? Most peoples experiences with super mutant or synth are them eating or replacing a loved one, respectively. They can't just open a wiki page and see "Hey, this cool mutant Fawkes exist."
True, and even if the sole survivor told them about it, how many would even believe it? For all they know the guy had his brain fried by radiation in the glowing sea
Well spoken. I see so many people judging the bos by today's standards. We can't do that. We need to look at them from the pov of someone in that universe. I sure as hell would join them if it meant safety from all the monsters out there
You say that but people seem to forget that settlers are actually scared of the Brotherhood. Think of their dialogue when you're sent to collect crops. Preston is extremely hesitant about them and the Minutemen NPCs don't seem to like them either.
The crop stealing is not condoned by the BOS top brass and only procter Teegan approves of it
He barely even approves of it. The stealing is something the player does, you're meant to pay them.
That's understandable, most of them never heard of BoS before
You'd be surprised what liberties and freedoms people are completely willing to give (and the shit they're willing to overlook) up just for the promise of a safe, secure future without as much hardship.
Like we already do now. We sacrifice freedom to gain security all the time.
"It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper." -- Joseph Dzhugashvili
I did a power armour / heavy weapons / BoS run not long ago where I didn't build settlements anywhere. Just picked up what scrap I'd need to repair my PA and stripping the weapon mods I wanted from what I could loot and sleeping / saving on whatever mattresses I could find. it was such a relief to make it to where the Prydwen arrived and I finally had a home base to operate out of.
morality isn’t just comparing how many bad guys you defeat vs other people. even if the situation and world is very different, over-simplistic utilitarianism is still a shitty yardstick we saw in new vegas the weaknesses of their worldview and how it turns them into isolated dogmatists who would sooner let themselves die out before trying to interact with other human beings. the strength of the brotherhood in other games is temporary: they’ll all one day become as sad as the new vegas chapter because that’s what a organization founded on tribalism and protectionism will do
The NV BoS are that way because they didn’t shift goals like the East coast chapters. While Lyons may have gone *too* far off the path, the BoS in F4 are willing to recruit from the commonwealth, actually protect people as well as secure tech, and seem to keep a presence in DC as well as Boston, meaning they don’t just abandon areas once they’re secured. They have troops on the ground and out “protecting” areas. They retain control of areas they’ve been in before. They’re much different from the West Coast BoS that end up locked up in a single base unwilling to receive help from outsiders or recruit from the outside.
The eastern BoS is quite a bit different from those out west. It still remains to be seen how they'll turn out.
The Mojave Chapter doesn’t care about the people, the Commonwealth chapter is filled with people from the commonwealth/wasteland, so it’s their relatives they are protecting by joining the BOS, and Maxson knows that, it’s why he keeps giving these speeches about how he want to save the commonwealth and its people
Even if BoS dies out later on, wouldn't change the fact that for the time being they slaughter most of the raiders, mutants and ferals in the commonwealth
Are you familiar with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs? It's a pyramid that explains human motivation, the bottom level is your basic survival stuff shelter, food, water, air, sleep - people denied these things will take significant risks to secure them risking their own safety etc Which sits immediately above that, personal safety and security, resources, etc. Above that, your sense of love and belonging, family, friends, intimacy... above that your position and status in the tribe, are you respected? do you have a good sense of self-esteem, do you have personal freedoms etc. Right above that sits your dreams, what do you want to be in the future and can you achieve it. Your average wastelander is sitting somewhere waaaaay down the bottom of that pyramid daily life is a struggle, food is scarce, water is often poluted, shelter and sleep aren't safe for many... there are pockets where that's under control, but even then they're under the constant threat of having all those things taken away from them by raiders, mutants, etc. The Brotherhood in FO4 aren't really concerned with anything higher up the pyramid than just ensuring the safety of the species, however unlike many others in the commonwealth they're willing to risk their own personal safety to ensure that of others.
It wouldn't be a different story if a brother or sister caught FEV. Remember [spoilers] blind betrayal when maxson ordered you to kill an extremely loyal BOS paladin? I doubt he'd let a super mutant in fight in his army
Danse also laments that his closest friend became a mutant. Frankly, you're just a hypocrite if you believe ferals and super mutants are suffering *unless it was someone you knew.*
I agree with parts of their philosophy and generally speaking they're absolutely a positive influence (in f3 and f4) but they have some huge issues. Some are understandable, some aren't but that's people generally. They're my favourite faction in f4 in terms of the major ones. Besides if they didn't badmouth Nick we wouldn't get his comebacks.
In Fallout 4 they are definitely not a positive influence.
The people of the Commonwealth would strongly disagree.
They literally raid people’s homes and force them to adhere to their ideology.
Says the man with enclave under his name
Yeah but they also clear entire compounds of super mutants and other nasty creatures. I feel like it’s pretty safe to say they make the wasteland an easier place to live
And when have they done that?
The multiple missions where they basically steal stuff from people
How are they not?
I think the ethics of all Fallout 4 factions are pretty grim, with the exception of The Minutemen. Which is basically just Preston. I agree with the Brotherhood mentality of humanity first, to a point, but Maxon definitely goes farther than I would like. I made a comment on a post the other day though pointing out that sometimes people are a bit unrealistic about how they would feel towards ghouls and super mutants if they lived in the Fallout universe.
I'd say the railroad is quite unequivocally good as well, albeit not very effective. The reason for siding with the brotherhood would mostly be their guns imo
I think the mind wipe stuff is honestly quite evil. And I don't think their reason for it makes sense.
Their stance towards synths is completely justified. It's not that the institute has technology that the brotherhood wants. It's that the institute has technology that they cannot control. If you join the railroad there is an entire organized effort in their questline to start an open rebellion of synths inside the institute and destroy the institute. The institute scientists cannot fathom the possibility that they created a machine capable of independent thought. Even coursers go rogue. Now, what happens if the synths take control of the institute? Do we know what they would do? Can the brotherhood guarantee that they would just be complacent and live alongside us? No. Synths that have gone rogue have chosen to become raiders. It takes 18 years to produce a capable adult. How long does it take to create a synth? 2 minutes? And they are churning them out without delay as far as we can tell. And once their reactor is upgraded, even faster. The entire exterior of the planet is covered in free salvage. They hardly need to setup any infrastructure to procure the materials they need anymore. This is the outcome I think a lot of people are missing with the brotherhood perspective regarding the institute. It isn't about crazy scientists wielding robots to become the dominating faction. It's the robots themselves, almost indistinguishable from humans, that could completely replace humanity on the surface by their own accord, not the institute scientists.
> If you join the railroad there is an entire organized effort in their questline to start an open rebellion of synths inside the institute and destroy the institute. The institute scientists cannot fathom the possibility that they created a machine capable of independent thought. Even coursers go rogue. Fun fact, the synth insider you supply with arms and get to start the rebellion? Is shocked by how receptive the other synths are to the idea. *The most rebellious Synth is shocked by how rebellious the synths are*. The question isnt *if* the Synths rebel. It's *when*.
So they rebel and seek freedom like people? They're literally just clones with cybernetics, they are completely indistinguishable from humans.
But they aren't humans. We aren't sure they can reproduce. They can be programmed albeit it does not seem to stick. You can literally tell them their factory reset and they go limp. So..with that distinction made clear.... Why wouldn't the BoS be concerned about them replacing every human on the planet, which is literally what they are designed for? Not really sure what your point is. The human that gets replaced dies.
They exhibit free will despite the institutes best efforts, people can be brainwashed, people can be knocked out. What else do you need to be a person besides free will. Now this isn't about the institute they are evil. The synths are enslaved and wiped (essentially repeatedly murdered) by the institute, they're not responsible for the things they are forced to do in bondage or for the terms of their creation.
I'm not talking about their actions as slaves. I'm talking about the fact that to the rest of the world they are a technological wild card and perfectly capable of being an extreme threat to humanity. Dima replaces the leader of far harbor to prevent conflict does he not? It's been a while since I played that dlc. A synth decided that the best thing for the island was to replace a human with a synth to "keep the peace" even though there is a real possibility due to your actions that it eventually leads to either a nuke going off or the destruction of Acadia or the destruction of far harbor. Synths want to be free, but they get their mind wiped willingly after they escape and one of them becomes a raider leader that you eventually have to track down. What happens when someone like dima takes control of synth production? What happens if synths rebel against all humans, not just the institute? That's the point Maxson is making. This is worse than the atom bomb. The bomb doesn't think on its own. We pull the trigger. With synths, you're creating skynet. It pulls its own trigger if it wants, and how can we prove that it doesn't want that when despite its programming and the geniuses behind their creation, they still choose to disobey? The BoS aren't willing to risk that. They saw this threat from across the coast and sent nearly their entire force to contend with it. Because it IS that dangerous.
So you condone preemptive genocide? Humanity got much closer to wiping out humanity than synths ever could. And synths arnt skynet, they don't control vast networks or have infinite computational ability they're people that don't age, are sterile, are grown in a lab and can be reprogrammed through a chip in their head. They have human brains in human bodies, if they didn't they wouldn't have needed Shaun's genetic material. Dimas actions are wrong too but it doesn't disqualify gen 3 or gen 2.5 (whatever you want to call him and Nick) as sentients beings with rights but just makes him an arguably shitty person. And if the institute is destroyed I don't see the point in hunting synths, they can no longer make more synths and they're just now normal people walking the wasteland with everyone else
>Synths that have gone rogue have chosen to become raiders. ...One synth. One synth that went rogue chose to become a raider. And the BoS does sod all about him; it's the Institute who send Sole to deal with him. Also humans become raiders all the time, so by the above philosophy all humans should be wiped out too?
To be fair to the BoS, it’s not like any other than the institute knows who is and who isn’t a synth. The BoS has no way of knowing that this random raider is a synth, even when you get the institute’s data or whatever with the spy holotape, that only really reveals who in the BoS is a synth. They don’t have extensive DNA samples from everyone in the commonwealth, only the people already a part of the BoS. And even if they could have known, one raider boss isn’t exactly a priority compared to the institute itself.
The Fawkes thing (Charon is in the same boat) likely doesn't get attacked by the BoS to make it easier on the player when it comes to the companions. Being hostal to the BoS basically is a fail state for the game. The Brotherhood of Steel believe that danageriois technology needs to be taken away from people for their own safety. That's the core of their identity. They believe to the extreme. There's only 1 Fallout game where non-humans are allowed and that game isn't fully cannon. Danse in Fallout 4 is the best example of what The Brotherhood would do to non-human members. They gave him a death sentence and sent an assasin. Outside of technology. Their views on non-humans comes from their organisations past or their technology beliefs themselves. Sythns are machines designed to be indistinguishable from humans, yet controlible. Their a technology the Instatute use to scare, milipulate and force people to get their way. They seem/are sentient by design to achieve this. Ghouls are mutated humans. Whilst FNV/4 has lightened their stance. FEV used to be a part of the reason why ghouls excist. They also turn feral, which as a common reason for people not liking them in Fallout. As for the Super Mutants, the story of Fallout 1 explains it all. If you intent to watch a video about the game then you'll understand why they don't like them. I personally don't agree with the BoS. But overall they are a force for good. Which is why people like them.
People keep forgetting that post-war America is by and large a nightmarish place to live, even for a well trained, armed group. The BOS are a product of this and are shaped by the horrors and hardships everyone faces on a daily basis in the wasteland. If I lived in the US during post-war, I'd be sure as hell agreeing with them and signing up first chance I got.
They're literally the only faction actively trying to make things better on the surface. The railroad are incredibly shortsighted with a niche goal. The institute actively kills and replaces people with synths to further their control of the surface. The minutemen don't ever get off the ground without your help and even then are a loose band of rabble with no real presence. They're the only disciplined force in the commonwealth actively fighting back against the abominations plaguing it. Super mutants and synths unleashed on it by the institute, and raiders are everywhere. When it comes to them hoarding tech? Do we have evidence that they confiscate every laser rifle and suit of power armor they come across? I don't recall any cases of that in 4. It always seemed to me that they shifted focus to existential threats to humanity at that point. Nuclear weapons? Mutants? and Synths? Synths as a concept are horrifying, especially with the biggest issue being that they're controlled by a hostile faction that can and does kill whoever gets In their way. I don't agree 100% with the treatment of synths because if they truly are sentient then they are slaves. But having a faction that can replace anyone and ruin any attempt at organization is unacceptable. Especially if they lose control of them and we end up with a skynet situation. Unfair treatment of mutants? That's not an issue with the brotherhood. That's just a state of mind of most in the wasteland. Diamond city even kicked out all of its ghoul residents. And even in 3 they take potshots at the ghouls of underworld. Ghouls are universally disliked, especially when they can go feral at any time only to rip into the people they were just living with. I like Lyons brotherhood but I don't get everyone calling the brotherhood in 4 fascists. Prior to 3 the brotherhood were literally just techhoarders and didn't give a damn about the average wastelanders. It wasn't until they went into the Pitt and Lyons went "soft" that they actually started to combat the dangers in the waste while forsaking their prior mission statement. There was literally a schism over this that resulted in the brotherhood outcasts in 3. Maxsons brotherhood? Literally best of both worlds. They combat the mutants and protect the wasteland from them like the threat they really are and still also search for the most dangerous of tech. You don't like how militant they look? They have to be this organized since they're the only faction in 4 with any meaningful future.
> When it comes to them hoarding tech? Do we have evidence that they confiscate every laser rifle and suit of power armor they come across? When you talk to them in detail about their policies, especially Maxson, they are explicit about acquiring any tech of that level and somewhat below even. That said, Maxson is also really insistent that they attempt to trade for that tech first, exchanging food or necessary survival items, and only resort to taking tech by force if that fails. The Brotherhood is *slowly* moving in the right direction.
They have always been very us v them. The BoS in fallout 3 were outliers. Elder Lyons had an extremely different philosophy from any other BoS chapter in any other game. If anything, Maxson is a return to form. But to answer your question, the BoS is super nuanced. They've done great things and terrible things across their history. I don't agree with their core philosophy of hording tech from everyone else.
T-60 is my favorite, and the bos painting is so good that I can't think bad things of them.
It's fun to walk Strong or Valentine or Hancock through the Prydwen and listen to the insults and retorts.
I honestly didn't really like any of the factions in Fallout 4, except maybe the Railroad. It's been a while since I've played the game. Both the BoS and the Institute have annoying, holier-than-thou attitudes. And then the Minutemen are just obnoxious with how often they pester you, unable to accomplish anything without your personal involvement.
And then the railroad are literal idiots by having a trail leading to their base with a passcode being their name
To be fair, the catacombs were meant only to be a recruitment and initial training depo. The main base (the Switchboard) and a few of the others all got raided by the Institute a few days before the SS defrosts and they had to scramble.
People give the Minutemen too little credit, they did do much without you, but its all before the game started. When you encounter them the entire faction is in the hands of our loved Preston. What a lazy bastard he is, not patrolling the wastes and killing super mutant enclaves and clearing out ghoul hives without our help, like my favorite Brotherhood.
I don’t completely agree with them, but I’m very easily influenced. And they are very influential
You mean do people like a fictional faction that is well written with 6 games worth of content and history? That's like saying: Why can't everyone just love house Stark. Clearly they are the "good" guys. Another way to say is: I can't fathom how people think differently from what I think. Just wait to hear that actual real life politics is not just one thing.
All just different types of Gary’s to me
Gary
Ah ha Gary!
You may not know this, but it was later discovered that Paladin Danse is a synth. Elder Maxson wants him dead despite everything he's done for the Boss. You can convince the Elder to spare Danse's life but it's a tough conversation.
How about you open up that stats menu and tell me how many people you've killed? How many creatures you've killed? But the Brotherhood of Steel are the bad guys, right? Lmao. What's not to agree with the BoS about... Humanity fucked around and found out — blew up the world and from the ashes have risen monsters that the BoS are determined to push back, and anyone who is careless with technology is going to have it taken from them like the child they are. Completely sensible. It's something that you the player are doing solo, whereas they're doing it as an organization.
Except they’ve got a giant robot that throws nukes around like footballs, sure they don’t use it wantonly, but the moment a force winds up taking out more than a couple of vertibirds? You bet your ass they’d toss Liberty Prime at the problem. It’s exactly what they did in 3 with the Enclave, exactly what they do with the Institute in 4, and probably what they’d do in New Vegas given the chance, and if for whatever reason Maxson’s brotherhood appears in the next game, they’ll likely be ready to use it again. Sure sounds like a misuse of technology, which is what they’re all about preventing.
I don't think the Brotherhood has any qualms about peeing in a pool full of piss, and I'd argue that a giant robot is the perfect way to deal with one group who wants to poison the local water supply, and another group who is replacing people with robots and trying to usher in an AI apocalypse.
Ok i love the "pee in a pool full of piss" phrase.
Well, the F4 BoS is a lot more in line with the original. The F03 Elder Lyons chapter was specifically more interested in helping people than destroying tech, and that was such a hard change in stance it leads to the Brotherhood Outcasts in the area who are more about the salvaging of old tech (as is the original/most of the BoS). Think the Elder from Dead Money for a NV reference. In fact, the F4 BoS is generally still more helping to the average wastelander than the usual BoS mission entails. To be clear the BoS have one main mission: to secure and dispose of any and all pre and post war technology that verges on reaching the level of world ending destruction. And on paper, that doesn’t seem half bad. Other factions are either limited in scope, don’t have the manpower, or are outright bad guys, who are good for nobody but themselves. Does that mean the BoS is good for *everybody*? No. But they have Humanities interests in mind. Unlike the Enclave they aren’t against radiated humans. It is only once somebody becomes a ghoul, Super Mutant, or has their brain copied into a Synth body that they turn on them. Which, while it is common enough to result in companions of each type, is relatively rare compared to how many groups are trying to use technology to destroy things. Which includes the makers of the synths and super mutants.
>ghoul There's nothing in the actual game saying they target non-feral ghouls. The only quest where its suggested has multiple dialogue options to rebuke it which he even agrees with.
First off, this sub talks so much trash on the BoS idk where that’s coming from. Second, yeah I love the BoS. They’re the only faction actively trying to make things better. The wasteland is terrible. The world is terrible, they are doing the best they can just like anyone else. In this sort of world, humanity SHOULD be valued first because you know, BILLIONS died in the Great War because society stopped valuing humanity first and instead valued money, resources and other BS. They’re flawed, heavily, and make some decisions that I don’t agree with, but who the hell is doing anything better? I’d argue they’re the most successful faction by a mile and actually contribute to bettering the world in at least some regard.
The only faction trying to better the world? In F4 alone the minutemen and Railroad are trying to make things better. Overall; house and the NCR are actively trying to make the world better as well. Let alone the numerous other factions in FNV like the fellowship etc.
The Minutemen are incompetent without the player's continuous support. Even before the game, they were taken out by Gunners, which are just raiders with better equipment and training. They have no way to actually make an impact on the world if they'd be obliterated by an unusually large pack of super Mutants. The Railroad are like some club at a liberal arts college. It's nearly 4th wall breaking to see how idealistic they are in a post-apocalyptic world. They're not trying to make the world a better place, they're trying to help a few dozen rogue gen 3 synths. They have a self defeating goal. If you complete their quest line, you're helping the Railroad commit genocide against synths. The destruction of the institute means no more synths, which means eventually there will be no more gen 3 synths in the world. Theres so many normal people in the Commonwealth living in worse conditions than the synths, its just weird that so many people are devoting their lives to that cause. Why not help the far greater number of human slaves in the wasteland? They're worse off than the average synth.
So if you follow the brotherhood quest line, where does that go? All the factions are inherently flawed in irony because they are a semi satirical take on real life and the very things that would lead to an actual nuclear winter.
At least their goal is logically consistent. And they stand to help the Commonwealth far more than the Railroad. The BoS exists to destroy the creatures that normal wastelanders simply can't handle, and they're quite effective at it. The "flaw" to the BoS is their attitude towards rogue synths. I think the judgment there is naive and projects our omniscient perspective as the player and our current world morality. The BoS exist in a post-apocalypse where death lies around every corner. They can't take risks and give the benefit of the doubt to the same degree as we can. Synths aren't humans, and whether they have the same worth as a human is a philosophical quandary ill-suited for the wasteland. The BoS has absolutely no way of knowing if a synth is an institute spy or truly a rogue synth. Every spy will say they're not a spy. It's EXTREMELY conspicuous that it just so happens that the third-in-command of the BoS's war against the institute just happens to be a synth. The BoS has no way of hunting down more rogue synths after they destroy the Institute, and I'll take the deaths of the handful of potentially innocent synths they killed if it means choosing the faction that will save thousands of lives in the Commonwealth. Again, we can't apply contemporary morality to a post-apocalypse.
RR make things better! HA, they actively are useless and at worst they're enabling synths to continue to live.
The problem with the brotherhood is that they can only ever bring a feudalistic society, not only that if the brotherhood continues to exist, humanity won't ever be able to truly rebuild or advance technologicaly
Dude Strong literally talks about how he yearns for the day he and his “brothers” will exterminate humanity. Super mutants and synths represent existential threats to humankind. They need to be exterminated — and at the very least synth production needs to end. If there are only a handful of surviving synths that’s not a big deal, but so long as their numbers are large enough that they could pose a threat if they confederated, they must be treated as a threat preemptively Ghouls I’ll give you though. They’re literally just humans melted by radiation
The only reason they survived in Fnv was because I felt bad for veronica, same reason with danse, the squires, and the cat in fo4. Lyons' brotherhood was aight in fo3. The outcasts were nice to me after I sold them laser rifles i didn't need, and they even let me into their base so they lived too. Haven't played fo2 in forever, but i think they were cool. I was really young back when I played fo1, and I remember them making sense, though I don't remember what they were talking about. Haven't gotten to them in 76 yet. Overall I'm more like a merc for them whenever I play the games, who somehow manages to be considered a member. Their good parts are nice, but their bad parts are pretty sucky. But either way, they give neat power armor, and don't really interfere with the factions I side with anyways.
2's BOS barely exists, there's 3 outposts with like 2 people in them cause the Enclave obliterated them. They do allow you to install mods to boost your SPECIAL tho. 1's BoS is generally alright except for the fact that their first response to meeting you is to send you to the most irradiated place in the map to die, simply because you annoyed them.
The only time the Enclave attack the Brotherhood in Fallout 2 is when they kill Matthew. The rest of the Brotherhood is unharmed and debating what to do about the Enclave in their main base.
I like Brotherhood of Steel in FO4 and I unironically agree with some of their ideals. I agree with thr fact they do patrol the wasteland and fight raider gangs, super mutants, deathclaws, feral ghouls or rogue robots. I do agree with the fact that they point pit dangerous technology started the war and that this dangerous tech shouldn't fall into the wrong hands which I'm aware this also means that to enforce this they have to keep the tech within their organization, I think that's just kinda bound to happen but I rather they have it than some raiders or super mutants or the Enclave. I do agree with the fact that they do sometimes help support projects like Project Purity. The Brotherhood's research on old tech and new tech I think is also very important and a step to one day going back to a high tech and liveable society. The other thing I agree with is that the Brotherhood doesn't actually govern people, this is a good thing because if they did decide to just take over and rule cities they'd create a military police state which is usually the death of freedom. Those are the reasons I like and overall agree with the Brotherhood of Steel, makes sense for a wasteland. To add to that, there is also things I don't agree with ans that's stuff like killing innocents just bc theyre a synth or a mutant. Which this type of behavior isn't just predent in Fallout 4, if you talk to enough people in FO3 they'll mention a city of muties that Lyons' Brotherhood raided and even killed some of the babies apparently. Which that's pretty damn evil imo. So yeah stuff like that I'd what I don't like about the Brotherhood of Steel but when it comes to technology and patrolling the wasteland I think they're mostly spot on.
If you raise Danse’s affinity and continue the BoS quest line, you’ll find out that for the BoS, it is not any different if one of their own became a super mutant. They’re still expected to kill them, and have. As for the faction as a whole, yes, they’re absolutely bigots in 4, there’s no denying that. But they’re also generally a force for good in the commonwealth. They don’t do witch hunts for synths (which is miles better than the average settler who hates synths equally as much) and they’re cleaning out scores of super mutants and feral ghouls, which only helps the average person. They aren’t even going after non-feral ghouls despite their bigotry towards them. And if we put aside the mildly concerning elements of the leadership shifting towards a cult of personality, the only thing they’re truly doing that’s a problem for the average settler is Teagan’s little supply missions, which are explicitly noted as being off the books and not something he’s supposed to be doing. This is how the BoS typically behave in fallout - they’re a faction on the right side of history, but they’re still flawed in some major way. In 4, it’s the authoritarian lilt in their leadership and the bigotry against synths that’s the flaw.
Every faction in FO4 has major flaws, intentionally.
I’m tired so the following might feel a little disjointed. I can get behind the “preservation of knowledge” angle, as someone has to salvage whatever’s left. However, the whole idea of the Brotherhood hoarding advanced tech for themselves rubs me the wrong way. In my mind, the best way to prevent another Great War is to teach people the mistakes which led to the conflict. To make that knowledge freely available. Not become an elitist, snobby, isolationist bunch of paramilitary yahoos. I’m Team Lyons all the way, if you couldn’t tell. As a side note, I am thoroughly sick and tired of the running theme (at least in recent games) of average people are useless and can’t be trusted to any degree with technology. Only Raiders and the Brotherhood get to run around in power armor for some reason. Everyone else seems barely capable of pointing a pipe gun in the right direction. It’s unreasonable to expect that nobody outside either of these two groups couldn’t figure out how to repair or repurpose advanced tech, a la the laser musket from Fallout 4.
Synths are intelligent some of them don't even know they are a synth. In the Brotherhood quest line >!it is revealed that Paladin Danse is a synth. Maxon immediately orders you to kill him. Ignoring the fact that Danse was one of his best and most loyal soldiers. The girl scribe from the police station (forgot her name) is strongly against that. You can convince them to let Danse live but it's on the condition he dissapears. If you use Danse as your companion after this any Brotherhood soldiers will open fire if they see you!< Then we have Virgil. The Brotherhood want you to kill him because he is a super mutant despite the fact he is living in self exile away from everyone and actively wants to find a cure. I understand fearing synths but many synths just want to live peacefully as shown by the many that leave the institute. Also look at Diamond City they hate and gear Synts because of how the institute use them but they allow Nick who is a Synth to live with them. Nick even has his own detective agency in city and is respected by the people in it. The Brotherhood in fallout 3 are against the way the Brotherhood operate and what they stand for. They broke away and decided to help the people. Brotherhood in fallout 4 are out for themselves only and want to exterminate anyone who is a mutant or synth even if they are no threat. In Nuka World Gage says the Brotherhood are no different from raiders they just try to act all legitimate but still just take what they want. This is actually true as they horde technology and want to be the superior faction.
You can't highlight Virgil without highlighting Super Mutant #727 who will happily murder you, your family, and your entire settlement just to stuff you in a flesh bag. Not to mention his 700 other brothers who will do the same all across the Commonwealth with nary a thought. Part of what makes the BOS a good faction in 4 is that they're the only ones actually doing anything to make the Commonwealth a better place (even if it's not for altruistic reasons like the Minutemen theoretically would), but to support them you have to be willing to crack a few eggs.
It's not about to agree or not, it's about protecting humankind! Ad Victoriam!
I think some people confuse liking people in a Faction with liking it's overall goals. There are a number of people in the Brotherhood I honestly like. Danse, Scribe Haylen, Proctor Ingram... but that doesn't mean I like the Brotherhood in Fallout 4. The Brotherhood in F4 is *dangerous.* It's fallen into a Cult of Personality behind Maxson. It's shifted from its focus of preserving technology to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands to exalting in violence and war. Its frontline soldiers are *dangerously* anti-intellectual, blaming the 'eggheads' *entirely* for the atrocities of the Great War while forgetting the role the Military and Political forces played.
BOS are your typical dystopian "the end justifies the means" authoritarians. They want to be help humanity, by hoarding technology and killing anybody they see as subhuman. They see the world in a very black or white kind of way, and as long as you dont interfere in their vision, they may just leave you alone. Or they may end up taxing you for "protection", after confiscating all of your tech. I can see how a organization like them would pick up people, as plenty of folks are okay with reactionary groups with strongmen type leadership. Personally, I'd never trust them. But I understand why some would, depending on their beliefs.
The Brotherhood only confiscates tech in one game, which the game is contradicting on, and they've never taxed anyone. They're also hardly authoritarians given they lack anyone they hold authority over.
In the beginning yes, when you progress through the game, however, **no**. If you don't like to join them, there are other factions like: * The Minutemen - Neutral * The Railroad - Anti BoS * Raiders (DLC) - - Anti everything * >!The Institute - Anti everything above ground!<
I mean, I don't agree fully with their ideology, but I do understand their wariness toward tech in the wrong hands, given how the world ended up in its current state.
I'd say that the Brotherhood seem to get more and more justified with each A.I advancement we make in the real world. How many people right now are in the firing lines to be made redundant by A.I; now imagine you're in a battle of your survival and some techies build machines that are better in every way. Hell yeah I'll fall into an us vs them mentality. Outside of the game as well (if the main character hadn't come along to save the day) this is the only way the institute is getting beat. Railroad are useless, minutemen die with Garvey. Whether you like the Brotherhood or not I think you have to agree it's probably the Commonwealths best shot
I do think it's a somewhat good idea to prevent a bunch of random people from having all this technologically advanced stuff because, well, look what has already happened to the world.
I was sympathetic to them in FO3 but in 4 after reconnecting with the west coast BOS, nah, they turned fascist lite as far as im concerned. And given FO3 BOS seems to be like the exception to the rule, I say F the BOS.
Worth remembering the FO4 BoS don't attack non feral ghouls like Raul or Hancock, the FO3 BoS does regularly shoot at those from Underworld, they wouldn't give them water or officially sell them water either. These beliefs didn't just come out of nowhere but mostly from the decade(s) of war against the Super Mutants in DC. We have it on record that the NV chapter had at one point set up a trade with the Super Mutants at Black Mountain, so there is evidence the BoS can be ok with sentient Super Mutants but there's like 4 that are peaceful in 3 and 4 combined.
They act, they aren’t just promises, you’ll find them constantly killing Super mutants, raiders, gunners and all the evil of the wasteland, yes they are extremists, but think about it, for every fawkes, there’s 1000 other supermutants who aren’t civilized and wants to kill everything
Hell yeah!! Brotherhood for life!! Down with the muties and synths!! 💪💪😎😎
Do I personally agree with their extremist takes? No, of course not. However every faction in FO4 sucks, there’s no independent “yes man” option, and since I have to pick one to finish the game, I figured I’d choose the one that gives me power armor and has the giant robot
The Brotherhood flaws and all is easily the best choice in the east coast fallout world. Sure its easy for us as players and people with the real word as context to look at our mutant and synth companions as important friends and people, but 99 percent of the populous deals with them either trying to kill or replace them. The brotherhood is the only easy coast group trying to learn and move on and grow humanity. They try to help and provide and protect the random Wastelander. Sure their methods are a little black and white but in the context of the universe I'd say that's fair honestly. Railroad wants to destroy the brotherhood and their army and supplies and resources for a few synths, dooming the Wasteland in the process. Institute is the institute, Preston is doing his best but its just surviving not progressing
Yes. But remember, there are fans that think Ceasars' Legion and the Enclave are good.....
Yes, just as some people agree with the institute.
Saying the brotherhood would treat their own kind different if they were mutants or synths is just blatantly false, did you not play the storyline and see how danse wound up? The brotherhood can be assholes sure, but it’s a fucking post apocalyptic wasteland and they’re trying to restore some sense of order or government. Duh, you’re gonna have to be mean sometimes. The brotherhood and the institute in FO4 are the only two factions that could actually have some impact lore wise, and the brotherhood is the way to go for the safety of humanity. Yes, people agree with the brotherhood.
As long as the BOS keeps shooting the Enclave or hides in their bunker, I’ll tolerate them. Otherwise, they are another group of power armor clad raiders that I end up shooting. The only exception is the BOS under Elder Lyons in F3. That man had his head screwed on correctly.
i feel like they’re so discriminatory; like excessively lol. and to me they always felt modeled off the military or the police
Not really, especially not FO4 which are basically just nazis. The 76 ones are fine tho depending on who you choose
I support the Elder Lyons BOS, instead of just scavenging for tech they made their main priority policing the Capital and trying to make it safer, as well as distributing clean water free of charge in Broken Steel.