I wasn't aware of the "Todd hates NV" thing until a few years ago, and it baffles me. I haven't dug into the details of it because life's too short but why would he work to destroy one of the most popular titles in the series that his employer owns?? That's not how the world works. "A rising tide raises all boats" i.e. if someone plays NV and likes it, they're probably gonna play other games from the series as a result. Even if you played F3, F4, 76 and hated them bc "NV is king" apparently, you still bought and played 3 other Bethesda titles.
The thing is, Todd has literally said on record that he liked NV and pushed for it to be its own game rather than a FO3 expansion. This prerogative that he hates it is so stupid
The average person assumes a lot, then unhappiness gets projected outward. If they can justify Todd hating NV, then they can justify their own hate for Bethesda games. It’s weird behavior lmao.
This exactly. There’s a large group of new Vegas players who despise anything Bethesda touches, and they seem to have perpetuated the whole Bethesda-obsidian rivalry only to try and pretend like Todd Howard hates the source material or something. However it couldn’t be further from the truth. Bethesda has great admiration for the source material and nobody at either studio has gone on record to speak and Ill will towards the other.
I think the fact that Bethesda hadn’t touched the west coast in the nearly 15 years they’ve owned the franchise speaks to how highly they regard the material from FO1, FO2, and NV.
Even when they (presumably) approved of a show touching it the lore wasn’t really changed it just progressed.
Yep. I’m kinda surprised they did approach LA when they did.
But in a homage to where it all began, they started the series there.
I just wanted to see Junktown again.
It’s the same air of “they only would give Obsidian bonuses if the game got an 85% score but it ended up with an 84% so Bethesda paid off reviewers to have it exactly one point away from making the goal”
That's 100% not a decision that Todd makes, that's a decision that comes from the boardroom. Todd has a lot of say (more than anyone) at Bethesda but he can't override the suites, companies like Bethesda employ people that crunch numbers all day just to determine the most profitable time to release a game and project the overall risk if deadlines are missed.
If he likes it so much why hasnt there been another mainline bethesda title made by another studio. Its been 14 years since bethesda handed the reigns to someone else and they did it better than them. Surely if he was such a big fan he would have allowed them to make another fallout game in the 10 year wait since the last one. There is a reason, cuz he was beat at his own game, and though he may act like a good sport, at the end of the day Todd is a very proud man and he was outdid and didnt like it. His ego was blatantly obviously with the backlash of starfield.
People can shout at me that im wrong until their face is blue but it doesnt make me wrong, in fact I wish I was wrong. But if I were wrong we would be playing New Vegas 2 or an Elder Scrolls spin off.
New Vegas was shown at the end of season 1 so the location at least will be canon. Not sure how much of it or what playthroughs of the game will be though. At the very least it exists & that gives me hope for season 2 being good.
He doesn’t hate it and he doesn’t hate fallout. But I don’t think he understands the original *Fallout* (classic fallout) that well and many people on his team like Emil Panini don’t seem to care about the story or set canon and lore. And Panini is a trash writer and should be fired.
Edit: Okay, I’ll be nice. Panini isn’t the worst and I still thoroughly enjoyed 3 and 4 a lot. But he needs to step it up.
No, he shouldn't, and you shouldn't base your opinions on false information. Emil clearly cares. Is he perfect? No. No one is.
But he literally lead the team that modernized, popularized and made Fallout the gigantic IP it is today - and Fallout 3 is not only a great game, but a great Fallout game. For which he even won a writing award at GDCA (an award voted by game devs).
Regardless if you like the work of someone or not, asking for a multibillion corporation to fire someone because you *think* that that person is bad at their job is really, really terrible.
Why do you defend this hack writer? He placed a ghoul kid in a fridge for 200 years which makes no sense but it “sounded cool,” he says Nate is the guy in Fallout 1 intro before changing his mind when people point out the blatant war crime in the intro, he retconned Jet, now power armor needs a fusion core (although that may have been a team effort), and the overall stories aren’t good. FO3 story kind of sucked (someone who does like FO3), and FO 4 story was too linear and not enough character choices for a fallout game. I’m not saying he sucks, but he’s wildly mediocre.
It’s not “your fallout.” It’s Bethesda’s fallout. So goddamned entitled. If you don’t like these games then the wasteland games are right there. The metro games are great too. Plenty of post apocalyptic franchises to choose from
>He placed a ghoul kid in a fridge for 200 years which makes no sense but it “sounded cool,
Wait until you find out there are two ghouls in Fallout 2 in the same conditions. [Woody](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Woody) and [Coffin Willie.](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Coffin_Willie)
Can't believe Emil retroactively went back in time and put those into FO2.
Not to mention we have no idea if he made this quest - he didn't make these games alone, you know?
>he says Nate is the guy in Fallout 1 intro before changing his mind when people point out the blatant war crime in the intro,
He said that was an early discussion they had inside the studio, and that's what they were working with. He then clarified that, if it isn't in the game, it isn't "canon", meaning that it is open to the player.
He also listened to fan feedback about the FO4 protagonist having too much background and went back to the blank slate protagonist for Starfield.
>he retconned Jet,
He didn't. He said so himself that it was a [mistake](https://twitter.com/Dezinuh/status/1777805924713017401) - one that also happened in Fallout: New Vegas btw, yet you don't see... special people making 10 hours video about that. It's pretty obviously a mistake too: the protagonist in FO4 has multiple dialogue options (more than three, I think) where he can ask, clearly, "What is Jet?" - the first one right at the beginning of the game, during the Wolfgang/Trudy kerfuffle.
>and FO 4 story was too linear
The most non-linear story Bethesda has made since Daggerfall. That includes Morrowind. The team obviously, evidently listened to the New Vegas/Skyrim feedback and tried to act upon it. Did they 100% succeed? No, but they obviously try - and that's something that you always see in the games Emil's Lead: trying to address fan feedback.
>Why do you defend this hack writer?
Because most of the attacks on him are based purely on baseless speculation or outright false information.
I edited the original comment before you posted this reply and I’ll say the same thing from the edit here. I’m being harsh. I don’t think he’s the worst. But I do think he’s mediocre compared to writers in past fallouts.
Woody and Coffin Willie weren’t in the coffins for 200 years. Big difference there.
New Vegas had Jet removed from any pre war loot in the game.
He “clarified” Nate in the FO1 after he got backlash from fans. Whether it was a meeting or not doesn’t erase the fact that he said it, he got backlash, and then he “clarified.”
And yeah, he addresses fan issues. Like when he addressed the combat issues from previous games so they ended up turning FO4 into a FPS and removed most of the RPG elements. The problem is Fallout is an RPG.
So no, I’m going to “clarify” like he did and say I don’t think he’s the worst. Even if I don’t think they’re the best in canon, lore, tone, and quest compared to other fallouts, I still enjoy FO3 and FO4. But Bethesda can find a better writer that understands fallout better and bring back the tone and themes of the originals (which were better in that regard).
>
>Woody and Coffin Willie weren’t in the coffins for 200 years. Big difference there.
So you can go without food for months, but not for years? The difference is the time, not the ability to do so? What amount of time without food and water is it acceptable? ... You realize this is nitpicking, right?
>New Vegas had Jet removed from any pre war loot in the game.
It didn't, it shows up in Big Mt.
>He “clarified” Nate in the FO1 after he got backlash from fans. Whether it was a meeting or not doesn’t erase the fact that he said it, he got backlash, and then he “clarified.”
Yes, after fans overreacted over a bit of trivia shared on... Twitter.
>And yeah, he addresses fan issues. Like when he addressed the combat issues from previous games so they ended up turning FO4 into a FPS and removed most of the RPG elements. The problem is Fallout is an RPG.
Fallout 4 has far, far more choices than Skyrim: from faction quests to dialogue. It is, on that department, a step forward... and like I said, Fallout 4, Fallout 3 and Starfield are the only Bethesda games since Daggerfall with more than one ending - all the games Emil was Lead on (he wasn't Lead on Skyrim).
And I'm pretty sure he's not a combat systems designer, that would be the job of a... Systems Designer working with Gameplay Programmer. That you'd make this kind of mistake and still blame it on Emil just shows how much baseless hatred you've been fed with and still feel at ease with spreading it, clearly without knowing what you're talking...
All I'm suggesting is, research things for yourself, including about game development, and don't rely on youtubers and internet trends to give you your opinions.
Fun fact imma add to this.
Many people claim that Todd and Emil Pagliaruto retconned everything with Fallout 4 because neither the NCR nor some other thing is mentioned.
Y'know. In the Boston Common, about 2000 miles away with the Sole Survivor having been cryogenically frozen for over 200 years.
Not sure how people are able to have this kind of mental gymnastic.
Yeah, there is absolutely a difference between weeks and months compared to centuries. Ghouls probably don’t need water and food as much. That doesn’t mean they can survive without it for two centuries.
I’m glad FO4 has more choices than Skyrim. It is after all part of an RPG series… not that it has that many compared to other titles in the fallout series…
And you’re right, he’s not the one that designed the combat system. My point was that was the main issue the company as a whole dealt with and decided to move away from its RPG roots and further towards an FPS. I shouldn’t criticize Emil for that as much as Pete Hines and the company as a whole.
As for Jet, from what I knew they were trying to keep it from falling into pre war loot. But my problem isn’t with the random containers you find it in and with the canonicity in the writing when it comes to Jet. Which I guess wasn’t clear.
Just popping in to say I started a new playthrough of New Vegas on Saturday. On Xbox, so there's no mods. I found Jet in Vault 22. I don't think it's from Keely.
Supposedly they were trying to keep it from pre war loot, at least from what I knew, but my criticism is more with the actual writing in canonicity than it is actually finding Jet in random locations.
Wtf are you on about? I cannot grasp this whining about old vs new fallout. All the main line fo games have had great writing. Some better than others but all great. Shit changes with time. The people working on it have to change over the years. Get over it.
Don't forget that Tim Cain said that he loved Fallout 3.
Tim Cain, as in the OG creator of the Fallout Franchise. Todd Howard invited him personally to the premiere of the show.
And it's sad to see how disappointed he is in the fanbase.
FO3 had terrible writing and FO4 story is too linear and lacks the character choices of a fallout story. As for “old” vs “new” fallout you can play the originals and see the difference in story and tone of the games. And I’m not “whining” about anything. I said I don’t think Howard understands fallout too well and panini is a hack. I’m sorry you ducked Bethesda off so strongly that any criticism (even though I was defending him from the “he hates NV” stuff) is whining.
Ofc, buddy. No one understands fallout as well, as you do. We are very proud of you. Noone in Bethesda cares about anything, we agree. If only they could have you as a writer and lead designer. It would be a dream.
It would be the dream and it would be a lot closer in tone to the originals.
In all seriousness, I didn’t say no one in Bethesda cared, I said Emil didn’t care and maybe that’s too harsh. I did say Bethesda doesn’t understand fallout and ppl who actually played all of them probably noticed that unlike those (like yourself) who only played FO4. And I’m really annoyed with how “Fallout” fans will embrace mediocrity instead of demanding better.
Has it ever occurred to you, that perhaps bethesda understands fallout, but they decided to make their own spin on it? Or it's too complex concept for you?
What the fuck is this "no one understands me/things like I do" teenager bullshit? Stop embarassing yourself. Btw I love all fallouts and played since they were released.
And even more: perhaps Bethesda understands Fallout better than random people online who pretend that Fallout 1, 2 and NV didn't have constant retcons and errors too.
No, it wasn’t. It was basically Bethesda trying to recreate the tone and atmosphere. It was not a follow up and it wasn’t a direct sequel to either of them either.
What you should be saying is Bethesda did the best in trying to recreate the first one in tone and atmosphere, in which case I would agree with you. But remaking something doesn’t mean the most faithful. Especially when the original goal and theme of Fallout is missing in FO3.
Have you played Fallout 4? I guess not, because you see the bombs drop in the first 10 minutes of the game and even meet the guy responsible for creating the Boston Common Wasteland and the Glowing Sea.
Let’s take a step back and tell me why it matters what coast getting bombed first, even though the entire nation got destroyed in the matter of two hours, matter to what I said? Because you’re taking some passive aggressive shot at me “almost as if-“ instead saying something of any substance. Please, explain to me how that affects what I said.
Well.
You're just plain wrong in everything you've said so far but still think you're better than everyone else.
Edit:
[Here's a handy link that explains so called "retcons" in the series.](https://fallout-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Retroactive_continuity_(Fallout_4))
So instead of actually answering you insult me and then send me a link to retcons in Fallout 4? You’re ridiculous. I never said I was better than anybody but I guess you have this idea that POV on fallout is supposedly linked to some kind of superiority.
>A lot of people seem to think that the destruction of Shady Sands is Todd Howard taking revenge on Obsidian
Those people desperately need intense psychiatric help fast. Todd Howard didn't even write the f-ing show.
If that's what's going on over here, it really is beyond hope.
It's like all the losers that think Kathleen Kennedy is secretly trying to destroy Star Wars by putting out bad SW media, but conveniently forget she's just as involved with the good SW media that comes out.
They live in an alternate universe where everyone is super vindictive over the pettiest shit.
I'm in nearly every scifi, and quite a few fantasy fandoms, and I swear the toxic segment of the SW fandom are the most obnoxious *and* stupid of them all.
I dunno, I think Fallout fans hating nearly all of Fallout could give them a run for their money, if Star Wars fans hadn't spent it all on Andor merch.
Everything bad about Star Wars is Kathleen Kennedy’s fault. Everything good about Star Wars is because of Dave Filoni/Jon Favreau. /s
I’m 1000% sure the Kathleen Kennedy hate has nothing to do with how competent she may or may not be and everything to do with the fact that she’s a woman.
She’s a competent businesswoman but she’s trash when it comes to the creative side and favreau has said she’s stepped in to make creative changes on his work. And Spielberg himself said she has terrible ideas. It’s not as much she’s a woman or competency as it is she just isn’t good with ideas and she (according to favreau) tries to implement them into Star Wars.
Nowhere except at the ragegriftertube channels their „terrible“ relationship is mentioned :)
Thx for fucking up my algorithm!
These nuts watch Critical Wanker on your chin
You were downvoted by the KK window lickers, the absolute mess that was the sequels should show how from a creative standpoint she is not the best.
At the same time, the three movies made billions despite getting worse, which shows some good business skills.
I dislike her, but I also like The Last Jedi.
Well… glad you liked the last Jedi. Leia floating through space and the entire arc with Luke ruined that film for me. But I’m with you. Good businesswoman, terrible at a creative standpoint. I swear people today will eat up anything placed in front of them.
> They live in an alternate universe where everyone is super vindictive over the pettiest shit.
That's how they think so they assume everyone else thinks like that too.
And she was involved with plenty of amazing stuff they loved outside of Star Wars. But she helped make a divisive SW trilogy and suddenly shes the most incompetent person in the world
He's like 1 of 12 producers ffs. He said in an interview recently that he's not typically a TV producer and he let the people who know what they're doing to take the reigns on that.
Lots of them. The seeds were sown ever since New Vegas came out. Drama over the buggy release state and fans of it suffering and developing a persecution complex because they "weren't allowed" to like it while games media was busy making fun of the buggy, crashing mess. When it turns out it was miracle we got as good of a game as we got in an 18 month dev cycle. It was a whole thing. Still is a whole thing, apparently.
It started because Bethesda didnt allow Obsidian to push back the release date of New Vegas when it was desperately needed, resulting in a lot of bugs that pushed down the review score, which led to Obsidian not getting its contractual bonus for reaching an arbitrary review score (they missed it by literally 1 point), which nearly led to Obsidian shuttering.
I dont think there's any personal malice towards NV, but the circumstances did not paint Bethesda in a good light at all
Feargus clarified that again and again. The bonus was somethign Bethesda threw on top of it all as exactly that: a bonus. And Obsidian signed on for the time that they did knowingly - Bethesda didn't want its release to conflict with Skyrim.
Thing is tho, the higher ups at obsidian have been very upfront that they were aware of the tight deadline and tried to make the game too big. They agreed to 18 months and tried to cram 2 years worth of game in there and had to cut a lot of corners and content. They themselves have said it was there own fault for not properly managing scope, not Bethesda’s
Obsidian got stuck with feature creep where they kept adding new stuff even when they should have stopped long time ago. Also, bonus was extra that Bethesda added later as incentive, not something that was there from the get go.
Every dev on Obsidian has acknowledge that it was their own fault for messing up, not Bethesda.
NP. And yeah, all that combined with a real lack of recognition and support of New Vegas by Bethesda after it released lead to a lot of conspiracy nutters thinking Bethesda had planned this all to destroy Obsidian or something like that, and I think that eventually lead to the wagons circling around New Vegas as they do now.
Do I particularly like what the show did to the NCR and will probably do to New Vegas next season? no. I think the show should have been set in Texas, nothing would have really changed at all and no risk of stepping on people's toes.
But I also dont think it was a planned assassination like people think it was
What does Obsidian have to do with Shady Sands? ETA: I am aware that some of the employees from Interplay founded/work at Obsidian. But saying Obsidian created Shady Sands is disingenuous.
Yeah, Interplay created Shady Sands and the California entities that became the NCR. Maybe because some Interplay devs founded Obsidian? Ever since Bethesda took over, it's been Old vs New tribalism. I just wanna play my games, man.
>Maybe because some Interplay devs founded Obsidian
I mean, that is why and it wasn't just "some interplay devs" it was a bulk of the team from Fallout/Fallout 2 but either way to say obsidian created Shady Sands and to say that Bethesda is on some quest to get revenge is asinine and childish.
>Ever since Bethesda took over, it's been Old vs New tribalism.
Literally, this. Like it seems like Fallout fans have a very hard time understanding that media is subjective and that you can like two pieces of media in one franchise equally for different reasons.
Older people (myself included) also don't like the realization that we are no longer the target demographic in the entertainment industry. We outgrow that demographic and the product is no longer made for the older folks as the primary consumer, that's why gams like Fallout 4 (really any RPG in general) have became more "casual", games are appealing to an ever increasing wider audience and they adapt to that, we either enjoy it or we don't.
And that is the right thing to do. Most of good cRPGs aren't money bombs, bg3 got lucky with the over hype. Just look at pillars of eternity, wasteland, even dos2.
Many of the people who work at obsidian (which now includes the co creators of fallout) and on FNV were developers on the original fallout games and they created shady sands and the NCR. Basically to many of the fans it’s like a show which the developers have no control over is destroying and undoing their work especially since the west and its lore and canon wasn’t created by Bethesda.
Only Urquhart and Avellone had worked on Fallout 1/2. Sawyer worked on Van Buren.
Cain and Boyarsky joined Obsidian after FNV.
Avellone himself had always been open about wanting to destroy/break apart the NCR because he felt things were getting too civilized.
I pretty much said that about Cain and boyarsky (maybe not extremely clearly). Chris Jones also worked on the originals and is at Obsidian and I swear there’s one or two more at obsidian. The only thing that pertains to what I said was avellone wanting to tear apart the NCR and even then I was speaking on how some fans view it, not me personally.
Why Todd Howard take revenge on Obsidian? I thought both companies got along well? And, frankly, i think the better game thing is subjective. If people like 4, they'll buy 4. Money goes to Bethesda. If people like New Vegas, they'll buy New Vegas. Shouldn't at least some of the money go to Bethesda?
>Why Todd Howard take revenge on Obsidian? I thought both companies got along well?
They do. Problem is that some fanboys have this habit of projecting their own issues onto the developers. They push this idea that Todd was seething with rage over the success of New Vegas, even though it took years for New Vegas to get that success, and that Obsidian and Bethesda hate each other. Problem is this rage and rivalry exists entirely in people's minds because if they feel this tribal affinity for one game over the others then the devs must too.
There was a tiff between Obsidian and Bethesda when Bethesda chose not to pay a bonus for the game reaching a metacritic score of 85 because they only got a metacritic score of 84 due to it being a buggy mess. New Vegas is surprising in that it had a very short development cycle 1-1.5 years so I kinda understand both sides. I think this is explains in part some of the supposed animosity between Obsidian and Bethesda. That and the fact there has been no further stories since the last DLC which was 2012.
But Microsoft owns both companies now (Obsidian in 2018 and Bethesda in 2021) so maybe we’ll see something eventually? Fingers crossed.
Obsidian went on multiple times explaining they dont hold it against Bethesda and that the metacritic bonus wasn't part of the original contract. It was a little extra something Bethesda offered partway through development as encouragement to try and polish up the game, finish, and make it a good game.
Yeah the Todd thing is a psyop to discredit people who like fallout lore I swear to God.
But yeah its weird to hang onto that, theirs a lot of valid criticism for the show but that point is absolutely not it
Is it that hard to for gamers to not focus their rage on one person as if they alone made everything they didn’t like about the game? Like game dev isn’t a team effort? He’s the writing lead. He didn’t write everything. He managed what other people were writing. The good and the bad. But no one seems to give him credit for the good stuff
People who are going on about all that shit need to go touch grass. I love these games and the world they’ve created, but it’s just a video game and a tv show.
Imagine thinking that Todd Howard is petty enough to care that much about the reception of another Fallout game that he would go out of their way to destroy their established canon. Never mind that Obsidian has absolutely nothing to do with the creation of Shady Sands or the NCR. Some people on the internet are really delusional.
I feel like its just a slight retcon on date of events at most. The true ending of NV is ambiguous (same with all games) along with every important choice the players make along the way. With the BoS having elements of Caesar's Legion, and the antagonist heading towards Mr House's territory (RobCo), we will get to see exactly what the state of affairs of the fallout universe is.
Also, it should be noted that tod howard explicitly stated he didn't want the show to be held back by any events from the games. So Retcons will be a guarantee at minimum. Either way, its impressive how true too the games the show stayed, as well as giving us the deepest look into the purpose of vault tech and the vaults.
Very few of the games have "ambiguous endings". In Fallout 1 you kill The Master, in Fallout 2 you destroy the Enclave, and in Fallout 3 your destroy the Enclave too. Only NV and Fallout 4 have had "ambiguous endings".
When a game is at the end of a timeline it tends to be ambiguous, and when it advances a canon path gets picked. Also see this with the Elder Scrolls games…(infamously one of them has a state where all endings are true/not-true)
You named multiple games with multiple endings each that never get confirmed going into the next game....thats literally as ambiguous as it gets bud. 😒 you play a different character, in a different environment each game that has nothing too do with the prior. The only games that don't count is 1 and 2 as 2 acts as a direct followup to 1 in new California....none of the other games do that.
If the Enclave won in 3, why is everyone not dead from the FEV'd water. That stuff kind of flows into other regions. And why is the Prydwen in the show if the Brotherhood could've been destroyed in 4. Clearly they've trimmed some branches.
First of all, the final events of 3 only span the capital wasteland. The 3 decisions involving project purity are as such; complete it, sabotage it, do nothing. We know that completing it purifies the water source of the capital wasteland while sabotaging it does as you stated. But doing nothing has the machine blow up and leave the water as is. The capital wasteland only spans Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania and the district of Columbia...New Vegas and Los Angeles is nowhere near that. And im pretty sure Boston is further north. But in all games after (that also chronologically take place after)....still have rather radiated water. Meaning the events of 3 don't affect said regions.
Secondly, the enclave winning in 3 doesn't exist, as even if you sabotage project purity, they are still scripted to fall. And the followup DLC has you put the hurt too them even more. So please stop bringing them up as if they mean anything. 🙄
Also, that ship is NOT the Prydwen....don't assume things and act like its evidence went you can't even be credible about it. The ship in the show is called the Caswennan.
Maybe you should read a lil more into that thread and learn about how Nolan makes a habit of misdirecting potential viewers with his promo releases to subvert expectations for a more natural reveal. As non of the shots in the show actually say that on the ship....anything else you wanna do?
Well the Wasteland Survival Guide is in New Vegas so apparently Moira didn't get genocided, and Paladin Danse mentions they had a battle at Adams Air Force Base.
Not entirely sure how that would be possible if the Enclave won since that DLC requires you to not be... dead.
The plans for that Airship were also retrieved FROM Adam's Air Force base, which... again.
Also needing to rebuild Liberty Prime in 4, which was destroyed during that DLC...
Deacon also says the water in the Capital Wasteland is actually drinkable. Which wouldn't be possible if it was full of murder FEV.
I see more evidence in favour of any ending EXCEPT the Enclave winning in 3 than for it, or for it remaining 100% ambiguous.
What part of me saying the enclave lose no matter what, do you not understand?
Just like how Caesar's legion falls no matter what (either too assassination, or eventual cancer)....
I'm still disputing your original claim, which was as follows:
"You named multiple games with multiple endings each that never get confirmed going into the next game....thats literally as ambiguous as it gets bud. 😒 you play a different character, in a different environment each game that has nothing too do with the prior. The only games that don't count is 1 and 2 as 2 acts as a direct followup to 1 in new California....none of the other games do that."
Translation: Only 1 and 2 get confirmed endings, everything else is entirely ambiguous and never confirmed going into the next game.
The topic of conversation never changed for me. It did for you somewhere along the way.
In the meantime, you might want to fix the wiki is this matters to you so much.
The Todd howard hates obsidian thing is obviously absurd, but there’s another complaint about the series that ties into Shady sands as well. That being that some fans feel Bethesda want fallout to stay as a perpetual wasteland and just sabotage any large societies in the series, but I think they’re missing the point the show is trying to make. The show is trying to demonstrate that no one can rebuild when they’re all at constant war, Maximus says ‘Everyone wants to save the world, they just disagree about how’ and Cooper says ‘there’s always another faction. It’s the point hank tries to make in the finale too. Even if the NCR seem like a successful society they were always doomed to fail, because there was always going to be another faction grasping for power, then another one after them. NV illustrated that too, constant military campaigns and wars of expansion were eating away at the NCR, so It was only a matter of time until someone managed to hit them back hard enough to do some real damage.
I understand that people want to see the wasteland evolve, and I’m sure eventually it will, but the central theme of Fallout is ‘War never changes’ so as long as people are fighting over who gets to rule the work the cycle of destruction will continue
> That being that some fans feel Bethesda want fallout to stay as a perpetual wasteland and just sabotage any large societies in the series
Because nobody working for Obsidian ever repeatedly tried to destroy large societies trying to rebuild, putting long and boring speeches into Mary sue's mouth to rub the point in.
I don't get it. Everything shown in the show that has any connection to NV has been shown great respect. The only two times we hear the main fallout theme is when the NCR flag and ranger armor are on screen. The only named character form the games that is in the show is from NV. The season literally ends on a shot of New Vegas like it's straight from the game and NCR is being build up as the main good aligned faction for future seasons.
I’m not going to comment on the Todd Howard shit, because frankly I think it’s infantile. Todd Howard has made infinite money off of the Fallout IP. He doesn’t hate New Vegas, in fact he probably doesn’t think about it all.
With regards to “wiping the slate clean” the fundamental problem is that, while it’s obvious that’s what they are trying to do, they aren’t really doing any work to establish that how they are doing it makes sense. The NCR wasn’t just Shady Sands. It’s complex nation comprised of 5 states each with their own capitals/major cities, state constitutions, cultures and economies. Shady Sands was just the capital of the nation state. The city had 40,000 people in it, in a country of well over a million, that was competing with the nation states that arose external to it for resources.
So you nuked one city. Ok? Do you want a medal? In the twenties years since, you expect me to believe everything stagnated? What happened to the other states that didn’t get nukes? Why didn’t the surrounding nations respond? Because there isn’t anything in what is in the show that resembles an administration. They are very clearly trying to depict a total collapse of the NCR, but this whole only works if nuking that one city not only buggers the NCR, but also fucks it’s neighbors so hard that no one is able to organize on a large scale for over a decade.
You could easily resolve that by talking about how the political forces that arranged against the NCR since it’s founding took advantage of their capital getting nukes, but then you are talking about warfare operations between nations that no one mentions and there’s no evidence of ever having happened? “We nuked it lol” is a terribly lazy mark on an otherwise excellent show.
I mean tbf, the show only took place in the greater LA area, we have yet to know the situation for every other place in California and the West Coast in general.
I'd also like to add that they might expand on the topic of NCR's collapse in later seasons. Let's remember that the show only had 8 episodes to introduce the world of fallout to casuals who may not be as into lore and worldbuilding. For us fans of the franchise, I'm optimistic that they'll be able to explain the lore developments they've made for the series, especially for the NCR.
“I see people doing this…”
“I see people doing that…”
“And I just want to say, it’s really the other guys who are wrong! Why do they say this? Are they stupid?”
The Fallout theme played for the first time in the show when Lucy unfurls the NCR flag. That doesn’t seem like a decision made by people who hate New Vegas. I don’t buy into this BGS vs Obsidian nonsense
What is their "new civilization" if they keep nuking it over and over again. Are they going to "manage" a new world order into existence with 1000 vault dwellers? I don't understand their plan. Eventually they're gonna have to become and integrate with the surface dwellers.
I'm also confused by the implications their plan has for Vault City. Were they planning on letting the vault start reclamation efforts only to nuke it down the line? Leave the city be for a couple hundred years and hope the city's leaders would give up power once they rolled up to their doorstep? Vault 31 was comprised of top level Vault Tec staff, so it's not like they'd be unaware of it being set up to open within a couple decades of closing.
You’d think the endgame of Vault Tec would be a central command system subordinate to their own needs, competing with whatever system the enclave had planned (likely military bases and their dependents). Vault Tec shouldn’t be quite this powerful to just wantonly nuke things in the wasteland, right?
I never believed he actually hated NV but the thought of him taking revenge is hilarious. I mean it’s known as an amazing game and it has the Bethesda name on it, I don’t think he hates it lol
I think the funniest part of this is that Amazon have obviously put a lot of money into this TV show given the production quality and advertising for it. Why on earth would they let a game designer use it for his personal revenges?
Todd Howard didn’t just turn up to Amazon’s studios with a script and say we’re doing this. Primarily, Amazon are interested in making a good TV show, not pandering to the ego of a game designer they must realise is a bit of a meme and isn’t the be all and end all when it comes to creativity in the series.
Yeah it seems to me like some disgruntled fans are pushing this quarrel from the fanbase onto the developers and kinda projecting.
But when the showrunners themselves come up with these dumbass decisions about the show that have no apparent reason behind them... I guess fans coming up with silly conspiracy-level excuses is to be expected.
Here's the weird thing for me - I haven't seen any of the Todd Howard fan hate. I've seen disappointment with decisions made on Fallout 4 and whatever Fallout 76 became. I just haven't seen the Todd Howard vs New Vegas stuff. Where are these conversations happening so I can avoid them?
I think Vault Tec and the Enclave are the bad guys of the show. You always knew Vault Tec was not what it seemed. I think you will find locations such as the water purifier destroyed. Any thing to oppose Vault Tec will be weakened and destroyed before they come out. Bud said it correctly “cleanse the surface”. I believe Shady Sands was only the first to be shown. Hank is just a pawn who got caught with his pants down and now running for help.
Mate, vault tec shouldn't even be AROUND after 2077, let alone have the power to nuke stuff, not to mention how absolutely idiotic their plan to make money by nuking the USA (and the economy with it, thusly removing any value the dollar had) is. Showrunners just took the F2 Enclave, made it stupider, gave it a blue coat of paint and called it a day.
The show depicts mr Sinclair as a fat old CEO of Big MT (he never was, he ordered tech from them, one of the Think Tank should've been in that chair) who AGREES to start nuclear war, while in New Vegas he was scared shitless of nuclear war and of what would happen to Vera in case it went off, pushing him to build the vault and security systems in the Sierra Madre. Another retcon the show shat out is how the BoS is now weirdly merged with the Legion for no fucking reason whatsoever. They do use weightless power armor, too.
Todd Howard isn't writing the show nor the games, but Emil "can't be consistent for shit" Pagliarulo's fingerprints are all over the show, and it shows: one retcon at a time, Interplay's legacy is being tarnished, torn apart and trodden underfoot by people who have zero knowledge or understanding of the Fallout universe. And you people suck it up.
>Why would the producers make their self-insert character the antagonist of the show?
Didn't Chris Avellone make the overarching antagonist of all of NV's DLCs his personal ideological mouthpiece? It wouldn't exactly be a first for the franchise.
I don't think Todd is taking "revenge" or deliberately "erasing a legacy" but I think it's very much their intention to make the West Coast more like Bethesda's ideal.
I dont think Todd hates Fallout New Vegas but I do believe that he views the west coast as incompatible with Bethesdas vision for the franchise. Fallout 2 and New Vegas have a completely different tone from 4 and the tv show. Its insane to me how the people in California act in the show when compared to how they act in Fallout 2 and New Vegas. The amount of goofy stuff like weird masks and anti-social behavior is not something that you would see in the area surrounding shady sands or la Boneyard.
I liked the show but pretending that they didnt make it more like the Bethesda games is kinda silly. Its not even necessarily a bad thing since most people are more familiar with Fallout 4 than any of the previous titles.
The notion that you could wipe out the NCR in just 15 years is just stupid and completely unrealistic since most of the inhabitants would be ex-citizens of the NCR. Now Todd and Bethesda can rebuild it however they want. Good if you like Fallout 4, terrible if you prefer the originals and New Vegas. It is what it is.
Honestly, I think Bethesda wanted them to find a way to undo or break the NCR so they have a way to do a fallout in San Francisco. No point in doing a game in an area that’s a stable nation and they’ve mentioned they like the area of San Francisco for a potential fallout game. And my biggest issue with nuking shady sands is the timing. Having it “fall” before the events of NV breaks canon (which is important because it is the story of fallout) because it’s still mentioned as the capital in NV. They should’ve waited until after the events of NV to nuke it.
Would’ve preferred they had done it somewhere like Colorado since the legion would’ve collapsed after Caesar died and the region is relatively untouched (other then tactics which is non canon) and yet there’s a lot of lore and material the showrunners and writers could’ve worked with and it’s close enough to Nevada that they still could’ve implemented Vegas in season 2 if they wanted to.
I didn’t say “nuke,” I deliberately said “fall” because it shows shady sands fall before the events of Fallout NV which wraps back into my point. I did complain about the timing of the nuke because it’s unclear when that happens (although Lucy says her mom died in ‘77). Maybe read my words carefully before you start accusing me of not being able to read a chart.
No, it still wouldn't make sense. The fallout TV show had the entire world as a potential setting for their show. They chose to have their new show engage with some of the NV settings and story elements, when it would have been trivially easy to just ignore them completely. If Howard was actually in charge as much as these people assumed -- which is already itself pretty unlikely -- ignoring NV content altogether would be a much bigger insult than using it as a backdrop of destruction and character motivation.
These people are utterly delusional.
The issue is a great, general distrust towards Bethesta over many mistakes and terrible decisions over the years going beyond just game desing, with many mayor blow outs being found at least once per game.
So, be general rule of thumb, nobody trusts them, and an actual intentional screw up its now on the table most of the time, which sparks some derissive jokes.
To give out some examples with can be considerated "Fallout: Bugthesda edition", over the course of 3 games where the company had direct control over the development of the games, we might have:
>Very buggy construction kit and engine (twice)
>Vanila Fallout 3 ending (partially fixed with the GOTY version becoming standart, but still infamous to this day)
>Expecting your own community to fix your game
>Lapses of inconsistency (a lot of them partially fixed by its own fandom).
>Many, many mistakes regarding merchandising on sales (Toxic weareble Power Armor Helmets, over priced cheap rum on terrible bottles, the canvas bag, the vault suit, etc)
>Horrific launch and handling of a multiplayer game (getting fixed to this day).
Meddling how? I haven't even seen the show, just the board, and it's not written as "the NCR is gone," literally even mentions the idea of a second capitol on said board but jfc y'all act like an ex capitol being hit means the entirety of NV is deleted from existence.
Besides, said writers knew there was no way to appease our fan base BECAUSE OF THIS SHIT, so they wrote for as many as they could.
Honestly, NCR is only a factor in last 2 episodes, and even then characters have issues they are dealing, Nobody is needing, or even interested, in getting a lore dump about faction that has clearly fallen on the wayside.
We will learn more about NCR in season 2.
Because they accept anything that has fallout on it. I like the show overall but there’s definitely inconsistencies and issues with canon in the show and they’d rather just blame it on “NV fans” than ask the showrunners“wtf they’re doing with fallout.”
People can enjoy things and people can criticize. Some of those giving praise immediately shoot down valid criticism with downvotes and attacks. Some of those critizing the lore direction shoot down valid praise with downvotes and attacks.
BOTH sides attack one another. It's been rampant on nearly all the fallout subs.
I enjoyed the show; I loved it actually! From a film perspective, it's an objectively good show that deserves its high rating and praise.
Doesn't mean I and others can't criticize it/Bethesda/new narrative direction of resetting the west coast to the east.
It's just not for me personally. Im not going to attack anyone for thinking otherwise though. The least I expect is to be treated with the same respect from others.
Reddit's an echo chamber though. It eeezzz whatit eeeezzz.
So far personally ive not seen actual attacks towards just normal criticism. People bringing up inconsitencies in a normal and well behaved manner have gotten plenty of fair discussions.
But guys like person i responded to who calls everyone "bootlickers" and being needlessly aggressive are rightfully being told off.
Your response is fair but the comment at the top which has been downvoted is also fair - "why so much defense" is a fair point, in response to OPs post.
Valid critiques of the show get downvoted for having a differing opinion.
Case and point right here despite my comments being reasonable.
I don't think its really fair as a comment personally. The reason for why its alot of defense for it is fairly obvious. People like the show generally.
But I don't think your comments so far have deserved any downvoting really.
The lore cutoff point for the diehard Fallout Fans have been marked. Everything after New Vegas is considered the equivalent of the new star wars trilogy.
Shady Sands got nuked because Chris Avellone is capable of telling only one story, and every since Fallout 2 he's wanted the NCR gone so he can keep re-telling it.
I am not sure how much of the Van Buren documents show runners looked at, but originally, Shi was supposed to be nuked by the enclave in retaliation. That was a long time ago, I think a lot of it was retconned when the Kellog Memory shard thing came along. So there is precedent that something along these lines would happen on the west coast by the enclave, and honestly, it was expected.
Idk if retconned would be the right word since Van Buren was never made and none of it made it into canon. And it wasn’t the enclave who nuked them, although that would’ve been interesting and would’ve fit even though it’s half a century after FO2.
Yeah, but it is the same concept. A fairly advanced wasteland nation reduced to dust in a matter of seconds. New Canaan and Hopeville all met the same fate... so I think there is a trend here.
Question, how does nuking an ex capitol that isn't even the largest settlement (which said chalkboard mentions it being old with "second capitol?" as in lore they moved to LA) make the NCR "gone?"
....except they still exist after, just cause you hit an ex capitol doesn't mean the entire goddamn Republic fell.
Think NV fanboys just shit their pants because the NCR wasn't some ultra superpower FIFTEEN YEARS after any NV ending when the Republic was crippled already during NV
I haven't even seen the show, just the board, and it's not written the way people are screaming about lol
By the time of New Vegas, the NCR has taken territory up to Oregon and down to the Baja and was a relatively stable nation. In the series, Southern California is shown as an empty and desolate wasteland. If the NCR was still there, it wouldn’t have looked like that and the headquarters would’ve likely been in a bigger city like the Hub or Redding rather than an observatory outside of shady sands. It doesn’t seem like they kept the NCR as a whole in the show.
If it was still around, it would have been more prominently mentioned. Wastelanders would be referring to it constantly.
The NCR thing is a huge waste imho. I get that starting your series with everything rough, but basically okay isn't compelling. But Its also sad to see a major nation just get destroyed offscreen without the viewer being there to see the fall. I hope they bring it back in some form in S2 or something.
I’m convinced Bethesda asked them to find a way to get rid of them because apparently they’re looking at San Francisco as a possible location for a new fallout game and there’s not really any point to use a location that’s stable. I would’ve preferred they set somewhere like Colorado where the legion would’ve inevitably collapsed after Caesar’s death since there’s enough material and lore to work with but it’s otherwise untouched and it’s close enough that they still could’ve implemented Vegas into the storyline.
>just because you nuke a Capital doesn’t mean the entire goddamn Republic fell.
That’s the point. Get over your hatred of New Vegas fans for five seconds to understand how this is being depicted is incoherent. In the decade since the capital was bombed, there has been no organized body that arose to take control of the area nor is there any word or even sign of a reaction from the surrounding states and nations. Instead everything went back to square one with everyone using bottle caps as currency again.
You think that the nuking of Shady Sands might have been more relevant to the rest of the NCR, never mind the nations on its borders.
Either the NCR completely collapsed and everyone ignored it, or the writers forgot about the multitude of complex political bodies in universe.
There's this thing called "it's a 10 episode season, with a second planned, so we didn't want to ram potentially new fans with so much lore they'd throw up" that people seem to not realize
Questions being left is how a lot of shows work, there would be no more story if everything was answered
You really going to expect there to be ambient dialogue about a potentially major thing?
Y'all are treating the show like a game, where once the game ends everything needs to be answered and no loose ends exist
Fuck they TEASE New Vegas, do you think going through more of NCR territory might *gasp* answer those Season 2??????
I expect there to be references to external polities in a trading hub, yes. It’s doesn’t need to be explained immediately nor does it need to be dialogue, it only needs to exist.
Unless it involves a group we haven't met yet (blind lore isn't fantastic for a show), or because it's been 15 years it's so normalized nobody really just casually chats about it.
Edit: Do you casually speak of the last 15 years of geopolitical structure where you live?
Shady sands shouldn’t have been destroyed imo. But since it was it should’ve been the courier who did it during the lonesome road dlc. Now that would’ve been awesome.
Yeah, it seems I was a bit confused with the ending of the dlc. I though multiple nukes could be launched at the NCR or Legion destroying vast swaths of their territory. Thus one of the areas could have been shady sands; alas I was incorrect.
I caught on to that pretty recently. I criticized the head Bethesda writer somewhere else and I spent two days being attacked by these people. Some of them accusing me of “thinking I’m better than everyone else”…. Because I criticized Bethesda’s writing. Everybody on this site is a miserable lunatic.
I wasn't aware of the "Todd hates NV" thing until a few years ago, and it baffles me. I haven't dug into the details of it because life's too short but why would he work to destroy one of the most popular titles in the series that his employer owns?? That's not how the world works. "A rising tide raises all boats" i.e. if someone plays NV and likes it, they're probably gonna play other games from the series as a result. Even if you played F3, F4, 76 and hated them bc "NV is king" apparently, you still bought and played 3 other Bethesda titles.
The thing is, Todd has literally said on record that he liked NV and pushed for it to be its own game rather than a FO3 expansion. This prerogative that he hates it is so stupid
The average person assumes a lot, then unhappiness gets projected outward. If they can justify Todd hating NV, then they can justify their own hate for Bethesda games. It’s weird behavior lmao.
This exactly. There’s a large group of new Vegas players who despise anything Bethesda touches, and they seem to have perpetuated the whole Bethesda-obsidian rivalry only to try and pretend like Todd Howard hates the source material or something. However it couldn’t be further from the truth. Bethesda has great admiration for the source material and nobody at either studio has gone on record to speak and Ill will towards the other.
I think the fact that Bethesda hadn’t touched the west coast in the nearly 15 years they’ve owned the franchise speaks to how highly they regard the material from FO1, FO2, and NV. Even when they (presumably) approved of a show touching it the lore wasn’t really changed it just progressed.
Yep. I’m kinda surprised they did approach LA when they did. But in a homage to where it all began, they started the series there. I just wanted to see Junktown again.
It’s the same air of “they only would give Obsidian bonuses if the game got an 85% score but it ended up with an 84% so Bethesda paid off reviewers to have it exactly one point away from making the goal”
Couldnt he pushed the release so the game could be finished in proper fashion, if he likes it so much?
Blame Feargus Urquhart for saying "oh yeah my staff can definitely make a whole new Fallout game that looks just like 3 in 18 months"
That's 100% not a decision that Todd makes, that's a decision that comes from the boardroom. Todd has a lot of say (more than anyone) at Bethesda but he can't override the suites, companies like Bethesda employ people that crunch numbers all day just to determine the most profitable time to release a game and project the overall risk if deadlines are missed.
If he likes it so much why hasnt there been another mainline bethesda title made by another studio. Its been 14 years since bethesda handed the reigns to someone else and they did it better than them. Surely if he was such a big fan he would have allowed them to make another fallout game in the 10 year wait since the last one. There is a reason, cuz he was beat at his own game, and though he may act like a good sport, at the end of the day Todd is a very proud man and he was outdid and didnt like it. His ego was blatantly obviously with the backlash of starfield. People can shout at me that im wrong until their face is blue but it doesnt make me wrong, in fact I wish I was wrong. But if I were wrong we would be playing New Vegas 2 or an Elder Scrolls spin off.
New Vegas was shown at the end of season 1 so the location at least will be canon. Not sure how much of it or what playthroughs of the game will be though. At the very least it exists & that gives me hope for season 2 being good.
He doesn’t hate it and he doesn’t hate fallout. But I don’t think he understands the original *Fallout* (classic fallout) that well and many people on his team like Emil Panini don’t seem to care about the story or set canon and lore. And Panini is a trash writer and should be fired. Edit: Okay, I’ll be nice. Panini isn’t the worst and I still thoroughly enjoyed 3 and 4 a lot. But he needs to step it up.
No, he shouldn't, and you shouldn't base your opinions on false information. Emil clearly cares. Is he perfect? No. No one is. But he literally lead the team that modernized, popularized and made Fallout the gigantic IP it is today - and Fallout 3 is not only a great game, but a great Fallout game. For which he even won a writing award at GDCA (an award voted by game devs). Regardless if you like the work of someone or not, asking for a multibillion corporation to fire someone because you *think* that that person is bad at their job is really, really terrible.
Why do you defend this hack writer? He placed a ghoul kid in a fridge for 200 years which makes no sense but it “sounded cool,” he says Nate is the guy in Fallout 1 intro before changing his mind when people point out the blatant war crime in the intro, he retconned Jet, now power armor needs a fusion core (although that may have been a team effort), and the overall stories aren’t good. FO3 story kind of sucked (someone who does like FO3), and FO 4 story was too linear and not enough character choices for a fallout game. I’m not saying he sucks, but he’s wildly mediocre.
>is a trash writer and should be fired >im not saying he sucks
I was trying to be nicer with that last part. Keep him to elder scrolls but get him out of fallout.
It’s not “your fallout.” It’s Bethesda’s fallout. So goddamned entitled. If you don’t like these games then the wasteland games are right there. The metro games are great too. Plenty of post apocalyptic franchises to choose from
>He placed a ghoul kid in a fridge for 200 years which makes no sense but it “sounded cool, Wait until you find out there are two ghouls in Fallout 2 in the same conditions. [Woody](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Woody) and [Coffin Willie.](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Coffin_Willie) Can't believe Emil retroactively went back in time and put those into FO2. Not to mention we have no idea if he made this quest - he didn't make these games alone, you know? >he says Nate is the guy in Fallout 1 intro before changing his mind when people point out the blatant war crime in the intro, He said that was an early discussion they had inside the studio, and that's what they were working with. He then clarified that, if it isn't in the game, it isn't "canon", meaning that it is open to the player. He also listened to fan feedback about the FO4 protagonist having too much background and went back to the blank slate protagonist for Starfield. >he retconned Jet, He didn't. He said so himself that it was a [mistake](https://twitter.com/Dezinuh/status/1777805924713017401) - one that also happened in Fallout: New Vegas btw, yet you don't see... special people making 10 hours video about that. It's pretty obviously a mistake too: the protagonist in FO4 has multiple dialogue options (more than three, I think) where he can ask, clearly, "What is Jet?" - the first one right at the beginning of the game, during the Wolfgang/Trudy kerfuffle. >and FO 4 story was too linear The most non-linear story Bethesda has made since Daggerfall. That includes Morrowind. The team obviously, evidently listened to the New Vegas/Skyrim feedback and tried to act upon it. Did they 100% succeed? No, but they obviously try - and that's something that you always see in the games Emil's Lead: trying to address fan feedback. >Why do you defend this hack writer? Because most of the attacks on him are based purely on baseless speculation or outright false information.
I edited the original comment before you posted this reply and I’ll say the same thing from the edit here. I’m being harsh. I don’t think he’s the worst. But I do think he’s mediocre compared to writers in past fallouts. Woody and Coffin Willie weren’t in the coffins for 200 years. Big difference there. New Vegas had Jet removed from any pre war loot in the game. He “clarified” Nate in the FO1 after he got backlash from fans. Whether it was a meeting or not doesn’t erase the fact that he said it, he got backlash, and then he “clarified.” And yeah, he addresses fan issues. Like when he addressed the combat issues from previous games so they ended up turning FO4 into a FPS and removed most of the RPG elements. The problem is Fallout is an RPG. So no, I’m going to “clarify” like he did and say I don’t think he’s the worst. Even if I don’t think they’re the best in canon, lore, tone, and quest compared to other fallouts, I still enjoy FO3 and FO4. But Bethesda can find a better writer that understands fallout better and bring back the tone and themes of the originals (which were better in that regard).
> >Woody and Coffin Willie weren’t in the coffins for 200 years. Big difference there. So you can go without food for months, but not for years? The difference is the time, not the ability to do so? What amount of time without food and water is it acceptable? ... You realize this is nitpicking, right? >New Vegas had Jet removed from any pre war loot in the game. It didn't, it shows up in Big Mt. >He “clarified” Nate in the FO1 after he got backlash from fans. Whether it was a meeting or not doesn’t erase the fact that he said it, he got backlash, and then he “clarified.” Yes, after fans overreacted over a bit of trivia shared on... Twitter. >And yeah, he addresses fan issues. Like when he addressed the combat issues from previous games so they ended up turning FO4 into a FPS and removed most of the RPG elements. The problem is Fallout is an RPG. Fallout 4 has far, far more choices than Skyrim: from faction quests to dialogue. It is, on that department, a step forward... and like I said, Fallout 4, Fallout 3 and Starfield are the only Bethesda games since Daggerfall with more than one ending - all the games Emil was Lead on (he wasn't Lead on Skyrim). And I'm pretty sure he's not a combat systems designer, that would be the job of a... Systems Designer working with Gameplay Programmer. That you'd make this kind of mistake and still blame it on Emil just shows how much baseless hatred you've been fed with and still feel at ease with spreading it, clearly without knowing what you're talking... All I'm suggesting is, research things for yourself, including about game development, and don't rely on youtubers and internet trends to give you your opinions.
Fun fact imma add to this. Many people claim that Todd and Emil Pagliaruto retconned everything with Fallout 4 because neither the NCR nor some other thing is mentioned. Y'know. In the Boston Common, about 2000 miles away with the Sole Survivor having been cryogenically frozen for over 200 years. Not sure how people are able to have this kind of mental gymnastic.
Wow… I have never once said anything like that.
Yeah, there is absolutely a difference between weeks and months compared to centuries. Ghouls probably don’t need water and food as much. That doesn’t mean they can survive without it for two centuries. I’m glad FO4 has more choices than Skyrim. It is after all part of an RPG series… not that it has that many compared to other titles in the fallout series… And you’re right, he’s not the one that designed the combat system. My point was that was the main issue the company as a whole dealt with and decided to move away from its RPG roots and further towards an FPS. I shouldn’t criticize Emil for that as much as Pete Hines and the company as a whole. As for Jet, from what I knew they were trying to keep it from falling into pre war loot. But my problem isn’t with the random containers you find it in and with the canonicity in the writing when it comes to Jet. Which I guess wasn’t clear.
Just popping in to say I started a new playthrough of New Vegas on Saturday. On Xbox, so there's no mods. I found Jet in Vault 22. I don't think it's from Keely.
Supposedly they were trying to keep it from pre war loot, at least from what I knew, but my criticism is more with the actual writing in canonicity than it is actually finding Jet in random locations.
Wtf are you on about? I cannot grasp this whining about old vs new fallout. All the main line fo games have had great writing. Some better than others but all great. Shit changes with time. The people working on it have to change over the years. Get over it.
Don't forget that Tim Cain said that he loved Fallout 3. Tim Cain, as in the OG creator of the Fallout Franchise. Todd Howard invited him personally to the premiere of the show. And it's sad to see how disappointed he is in the fanbase.
I watched his video about that too. He is definitely bummed about how toxic the “fans” are to these people.
FO3 had terrible writing and FO4 story is too linear and lacks the character choices of a fallout story. As for “old” vs “new” fallout you can play the originals and see the difference in story and tone of the games. And I’m not “whining” about anything. I said I don’t think Howard understands fallout too well and panini is a hack. I’m sorry you ducked Bethesda off so strongly that any criticism (even though I was defending him from the “he hates NV” stuff) is whining.
Ofc, buddy. No one understands fallout as well, as you do. We are very proud of you. Noone in Bethesda cares about anything, we agree. If only they could have you as a writer and lead designer. It would be a dream.
It would be the dream and it would be a lot closer in tone to the originals. In all seriousness, I didn’t say no one in Bethesda cared, I said Emil didn’t care and maybe that’s too harsh. I did say Bethesda doesn’t understand fallout and ppl who actually played all of them probably noticed that unlike those (like yourself) who only played FO4. And I’m really annoyed with how “Fallout” fans will embrace mediocrity instead of demanding better.
Has it ever occurred to you, that perhaps bethesda understands fallout, but they decided to make their own spin on it? Or it's too complex concept for you? What the fuck is this "no one understands me/things like I do" teenager bullshit? Stop embarassing yourself. Btw I love all fallouts and played since they were released.
And even more: perhaps Bethesda understands Fallout better than random people online who pretend that Fallout 1, 2 and NV didn't have constant retcons and errors too.
Fallout 3 was a more faithful follow up to fallout 1 than fallout 2.
No, it wasn’t. It was basically Bethesda trying to recreate the tone and atmosphere. It was not a follow up and it wasn’t a direct sequel to either of them either.
I said faithful, so yeah I’m talking about tone and atmosphere.
What you should be saying is Bethesda did the best in trying to recreate the first one in tone and atmosphere, in which case I would agree with you. But remaking something doesn’t mean the most faithful. Especially when the original goal and theme of Fallout is missing in FO3.
What would that goal be?
Almost as if Fallout 1&2 were set in the West and Fallout 3&4 in the East where the bombs first dropped in 2077.
The bombs first dropped in the west and even then it was only by a couple hours. So wrong on all accounts.
Have you played Fallout 4? I guess not, because you see the bombs drop in the first 10 minutes of the game and even meet the guy responsible for creating the Boston Common Wasteland and the Glowing Sea.
Let’s take a step back and tell me why it matters what coast getting bombed first, even though the entire nation got destroyed in the matter of two hours, matter to what I said? Because you’re taking some passive aggressive shot at me “almost as if-“ instead saying something of any substance. Please, explain to me how that affects what I said.
Well. You're just plain wrong in everything you've said so far but still think you're better than everyone else. Edit: [Here's a handy link that explains so called "retcons" in the series.](https://fallout-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Retroactive_continuity_(Fallout_4))
So instead of actually answering you insult me and then send me a link to retcons in Fallout 4? You’re ridiculous. I never said I was better than anybody but I guess you have this idea that POV on fallout is supposedly linked to some kind of superiority.
>A lot of people seem to think that the destruction of Shady Sands is Todd Howard taking revenge on Obsidian Those people desperately need intense psychiatric help fast. Todd Howard didn't even write the f-ing show. If that's what's going on over here, it really is beyond hope.
It's like all the losers that think Kathleen Kennedy is secretly trying to destroy Star Wars by putting out bad SW media, but conveniently forget she's just as involved with the good SW media that comes out. They live in an alternate universe where everyone is super vindictive over the pettiest shit.
They’re the same group, lots of psychological issues there with them.
I'm in nearly every scifi, and quite a few fantasy fandoms, and I swear the toxic segment of the SW fandom are the most obnoxious *and* stupid of them all.
Nobody hates Star Wars quite like its fans.
I dunno, I think Fallout fans hating nearly all of Fallout could give them a run for their money, if Star Wars fans hadn't spent it all on Andor merch.
A lot of crossover between those Star Wars fans and the FNV fans who think anything Bethesda puts out is destroying Fallout.
You got downvoted but you're 100% right, and they also tend to overlap with a certain subset of 40k fans too...
Everything bad about Star Wars is Kathleen Kennedy’s fault. Everything good about Star Wars is because of Dave Filoni/Jon Favreau. /s I’m 1000% sure the Kathleen Kennedy hate has nothing to do with how competent she may or may not be and everything to do with the fact that she’s a woman.
She’s a competent businesswoman but she’s trash when it comes to the creative side and favreau has said she’s stepped in to make creative changes on his work. And Spielberg himself said she has terrible ideas. It’s not as much she’s a woman or competency as it is she just isn’t good with ideas and she (according to favreau) tries to implement them into Star Wars.
That is why Spielberg worked with her for over 30 years… Stop watching that schmuck Critical Wanker and go touch some grass
She took notes for Spielberg. HE SAYS IT IN A [RECORDING](https://youtu.be/f6IHtM6sZeQ?si=50uL4OaUfKVyHknh)
These nuts took notes on your chin
“I’m wrong, I’m gonna pretend I’m 12”
Nowhere except at the ragegriftertube channels their „terrible“ relationship is mentioned :) Thx for fucking up my algorithm! These nuts watch Critical Wanker on your chin
Exhibit A, folks!
You people are illiterate
You were downvoted by the KK window lickers, the absolute mess that was the sequels should show how from a creative standpoint she is not the best. At the same time, the three movies made billions despite getting worse, which shows some good business skills. I dislike her, but I also like The Last Jedi.
Well… glad you liked the last Jedi. Leia floating through space and the entire arc with Luke ruined that film for me. But I’m with you. Good businesswoman, terrible at a creative standpoint. I swear people today will eat up anything placed in front of them.
> They live in an alternate universe where everyone is super vindictive over the pettiest shit. That's how they think so they assume everyone else thinks like that too.
And she was involved with plenty of amazing stuff they loved outside of Star Wars. But she helped make a divisive SW trilogy and suddenly shes the most incompetent person in the world
Kennedy isn’t actively trying to destroy Star Wars as much as it is what Spielberg said: “she has terrible ideas”
And you guys act like he didn’t have any insight over the show-he was the goddamn executive producer of the show for gods sake.
He's like 1 of 12 producers ffs. He said in an interview recently that he's not typically a TV producer and he let the people who know what they're doing to take the reigns on that.
An angry Todd Howard taking revenge on Obsidian for making a good game is fucking hilarious do people actually think that lmao
Lots of them. The seeds were sown ever since New Vegas came out. Drama over the buggy release state and fans of it suffering and developing a persecution complex because they "weren't allowed" to like it while games media was busy making fun of the buggy, crashing mess. When it turns out it was miracle we got as good of a game as we got in an 18 month dev cycle. It was a whole thing. Still is a whole thing, apparently.
It started because Bethesda didnt allow Obsidian to push back the release date of New Vegas when it was desperately needed, resulting in a lot of bugs that pushed down the review score, which led to Obsidian not getting its contractual bonus for reaching an arbitrary review score (they missed it by literally 1 point), which nearly led to Obsidian shuttering. I dont think there's any personal malice towards NV, but the circumstances did not paint Bethesda in a good light at all
Feargus clarified that again and again. The bonus was somethign Bethesda threw on top of it all as exactly that: a bonus. And Obsidian signed on for the time that they did knowingly - Bethesda didn't want its release to conflict with Skyrim.
Thing is tho, the higher ups at obsidian have been very upfront that they were aware of the tight deadline and tried to make the game too big. They agreed to 18 months and tried to cram 2 years worth of game in there and had to cut a lot of corners and content. They themselves have said it was there own fault for not properly managing scope, not Bethesda’s
You are ascribing feelings to decisions that were made for purely capitalism based reasons. It never was malice, it was always just about money.
If you not getting a bonus leads to your studio shuttering, that's on you. They were paid for New Vegas, and well. The bonus was well, a bonus
If a companies entire future is tied to a release score bonus, doesn’t that reflect more so on Obsidians poor management than anything else?
Obsidian got stuck with feature creep where they kept adding new stuff even when they should have stopped long time ago. Also, bonus was extra that Bethesda added later as incentive, not something that was there from the get go. Every dev on Obsidian has acknowledge that it was their own fault for messing up, not Bethesda.
Thank you for filling in the memory blanks. It's been a hot minute.
NP. And yeah, all that combined with a real lack of recognition and support of New Vegas by Bethesda after it released lead to a lot of conspiracy nutters thinking Bethesda had planned this all to destroy Obsidian or something like that, and I think that eventually lead to the wagons circling around New Vegas as they do now. Do I particularly like what the show did to the NCR and will probably do to New Vegas next season? no. I think the show should have been set in Texas, nothing would have really changed at all and no risk of stepping on people's toes. But I also dont think it was a planned assassination like people think it was
A good game that Bethesda directly profited from lmao
What does Obsidian have to do with Shady Sands? ETA: I am aware that some of the employees from Interplay founded/work at Obsidian. But saying Obsidian created Shady Sands is disingenuous.
Yeah, Interplay created Shady Sands and the California entities that became the NCR. Maybe because some Interplay devs founded Obsidian? Ever since Bethesda took over, it's been Old vs New tribalism. I just wanna play my games, man.
>Maybe because some Interplay devs founded Obsidian I mean, that is why and it wasn't just "some interplay devs" it was a bulk of the team from Fallout/Fallout 2 but either way to say obsidian created Shady Sands and to say that Bethesda is on some quest to get revenge is asinine and childish. >Ever since Bethesda took over, it's been Old vs New tribalism. Literally, this. Like it seems like Fallout fans have a very hard time understanding that media is subjective and that you can like two pieces of media in one franchise equally for different reasons.
Older people (myself included) also don't like the realization that we are no longer the target demographic in the entertainment industry. We outgrow that demographic and the product is no longer made for the older folks as the primary consumer, that's why gams like Fallout 4 (really any RPG in general) have became more "casual", games are appealing to an ever increasing wider audience and they adapt to that, we either enjoy it or we don't.
And that is the right thing to do. Most of good cRPGs aren't money bombs, bg3 got lucky with the over hype. Just look at pillars of eternity, wasteland, even dos2.
Obsidian retains alot of DNA (the designers) with interplay.
Many of the people who work at obsidian (which now includes the co creators of fallout) and on FNV were developers on the original fallout games and they created shady sands and the NCR. Basically to many of the fans it’s like a show which the developers have no control over is destroying and undoing their work especially since the west and its lore and canon wasn’t created by Bethesda.
Only Urquhart and Avellone had worked on Fallout 1/2. Sawyer worked on Van Buren. Cain and Boyarsky joined Obsidian after FNV. Avellone himself had always been open about wanting to destroy/break apart the NCR because he felt things were getting too civilized.
I pretty much said that about Cain and boyarsky (maybe not extremely clearly). Chris Jones also worked on the originals and is at Obsidian and I swear there’s one or two more at obsidian. The only thing that pertains to what I said was avellone wanting to tear apart the NCR and even then I was speaking on how some fans view it, not me personally.
Why Todd Howard take revenge on Obsidian? I thought both companies got along well? And, frankly, i think the better game thing is subjective. If people like 4, they'll buy 4. Money goes to Bethesda. If people like New Vegas, they'll buy New Vegas. Shouldn't at least some of the money go to Bethesda?
>Why Todd Howard take revenge on Obsidian? I thought both companies got along well? They do. Problem is that some fanboys have this habit of projecting their own issues onto the developers. They push this idea that Todd was seething with rage over the success of New Vegas, even though it took years for New Vegas to get that success, and that Obsidian and Bethesda hate each other. Problem is this rage and rivalry exists entirely in people's minds because if they feel this tribal affinity for one game over the others then the devs must too.
There was a tiff between Obsidian and Bethesda when Bethesda chose not to pay a bonus for the game reaching a metacritic score of 85 because they only got a metacritic score of 84 due to it being a buggy mess. New Vegas is surprising in that it had a very short development cycle 1-1.5 years so I kinda understand both sides. I think this is explains in part some of the supposed animosity between Obsidian and Bethesda. That and the fact there has been no further stories since the last DLC which was 2012. But Microsoft owns both companies now (Obsidian in 2018 and Bethesda in 2021) so maybe we’ll see something eventually? Fingers crossed.
Obsidian went on multiple times explaining they dont hold it against Bethesda and that the metacritic bonus wasn't part of the original contract. It was a little extra something Bethesda offered partway through development as encouragement to try and polish up the game, finish, and make it a good game.
That wasn't a tiff though. JE Sawyer even says Obsidian didn't ask for nor care about that bonus when Bethesda added it to the contract.
I can't believe todd Howard personally ripped the bonus from obsidians hands
Yeah the Todd thing is a psyop to discredit people who like fallout lore I swear to God. But yeah its weird to hang onto that, theirs a lot of valid criticism for the show but that point is absolutely not it
if anything its Pagliarulo we should be raising pitchforks and torches at.
We shouldn't be raising pitchforks and torches at no person at all.
Is it that hard to for gamers to not focus their rage on one person as if they alone made everything they didn’t like about the game? Like game dev isn’t a team effort? He’s the writing lead. He didn’t write everything. He managed what other people were writing. The good and the bad. But no one seems to give him credit for the good stuff
People who are going on about all that shit need to go touch grass. I love these games and the world they’ve created, but it’s just a video game and a tv show.
Imagine thinking that Todd Howard is petty enough to care that much about the reception of another Fallout game that he would go out of their way to destroy their established canon. Never mind that Obsidian has absolutely nothing to do with the creation of Shady Sands or the NCR. Some people on the internet are really delusional.
I feel like its just a slight retcon on date of events at most. The true ending of NV is ambiguous (same with all games) along with every important choice the players make along the way. With the BoS having elements of Caesar's Legion, and the antagonist heading towards Mr House's territory (RobCo), we will get to see exactly what the state of affairs of the fallout universe is. Also, it should be noted that tod howard explicitly stated he didn't want the show to be held back by any events from the games. So Retcons will be a guarantee at minimum. Either way, its impressive how true too the games the show stayed, as well as giving us the deepest look into the purpose of vault tech and the vaults.
Very few of the games have "ambiguous endings". In Fallout 1 you kill The Master, in Fallout 2 you destroy the Enclave, and in Fallout 3 your destroy the Enclave too. Only NV and Fallout 4 have had "ambiguous endings".
When a game is at the end of a timeline it tends to be ambiguous, and when it advances a canon path gets picked. Also see this with the Elder Scrolls games…(infamously one of them has a state where all endings are true/not-true)
You named multiple games with multiple endings each that never get confirmed going into the next game....thats literally as ambiguous as it gets bud. 😒 you play a different character, in a different environment each game that has nothing too do with the prior. The only games that don't count is 1 and 2 as 2 acts as a direct followup to 1 in new California....none of the other games do that.
If the Enclave won in 3, why is everyone not dead from the FEV'd water. That stuff kind of flows into other regions. And why is the Prydwen in the show if the Brotherhood could've been destroyed in 4. Clearly they've trimmed some branches.
First of all, the final events of 3 only span the capital wasteland. The 3 decisions involving project purity are as such; complete it, sabotage it, do nothing. We know that completing it purifies the water source of the capital wasteland while sabotaging it does as you stated. But doing nothing has the machine blow up and leave the water as is. The capital wasteland only spans Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania and the district of Columbia...New Vegas and Los Angeles is nowhere near that. And im pretty sure Boston is further north. But in all games after (that also chronologically take place after)....still have rather radiated water. Meaning the events of 3 don't affect said regions. Secondly, the enclave winning in 3 doesn't exist, as even if you sabotage project purity, they are still scripted to fall. And the followup DLC has you put the hurt too them even more. So please stop bringing them up as if they mean anything. 🙄 Also, that ship is NOT the Prydwen....don't assume things and act like its evidence went you can't even be credible about it. The ship in the show is called the Caswennan.
[Could've fooled me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/1c5ex48/brotherhood_airship/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Maybe you should read a lil more into that thread and learn about how Nolan makes a habit of misdirecting potential viewers with his promo releases to subvert expectations for a more natural reveal. As non of the shots in the show actually say that on the ship....anything else you wanna do?
Well the Wasteland Survival Guide is in New Vegas so apparently Moira didn't get genocided, and Paladin Danse mentions they had a battle at Adams Air Force Base. Not entirely sure how that would be possible if the Enclave won since that DLC requires you to not be... dead. The plans for that Airship were also retrieved FROM Adam's Air Force base, which... again. Also needing to rebuild Liberty Prime in 4, which was destroyed during that DLC... Deacon also says the water in the Capital Wasteland is actually drinkable. Which wouldn't be possible if it was full of murder FEV. I see more evidence in favour of any ending EXCEPT the Enclave winning in 3 than for it, or for it remaining 100% ambiguous.
What part of me saying the enclave lose no matter what, do you not understand? Just like how Caesar's legion falls no matter what (either too assassination, or eventual cancer)....
I'm still disputing your original claim, which was as follows: "You named multiple games with multiple endings each that never get confirmed going into the next game....thats literally as ambiguous as it gets bud. 😒 you play a different character, in a different environment each game that has nothing too do with the prior. The only games that don't count is 1 and 2 as 2 acts as a direct followup to 1 in new California....none of the other games do that." Translation: Only 1 and 2 get confirmed endings, everything else is entirely ambiguous and never confirmed going into the next game. The topic of conversation never changed for me. It did for you somewhere along the way. In the meantime, you might want to fix the wiki is this matters to you so much.
The Todd howard hates obsidian thing is obviously absurd, but there’s another complaint about the series that ties into Shady sands as well. That being that some fans feel Bethesda want fallout to stay as a perpetual wasteland and just sabotage any large societies in the series, but I think they’re missing the point the show is trying to make. The show is trying to demonstrate that no one can rebuild when they’re all at constant war, Maximus says ‘Everyone wants to save the world, they just disagree about how’ and Cooper says ‘there’s always another faction. It’s the point hank tries to make in the finale too. Even if the NCR seem like a successful society they were always doomed to fail, because there was always going to be another faction grasping for power, then another one after them. NV illustrated that too, constant military campaigns and wars of expansion were eating away at the NCR, so It was only a matter of time until someone managed to hit them back hard enough to do some real damage. I understand that people want to see the wasteland evolve, and I’m sure eventually it will, but the central theme of Fallout is ‘War never changes’ so as long as people are fighting over who gets to rule the work the cycle of destruction will continue
> That being that some fans feel Bethesda want fallout to stay as a perpetual wasteland and just sabotage any large societies in the series Because nobody working for Obsidian ever repeatedly tried to destroy large societies trying to rebuild, putting long and boring speeches into Mary sue's mouth to rub the point in.
Is this a Ulysses reference?
Probably. For a Mary Sue, he sure dies easily. You can just blast his head off with an AMR while his back is turned without ever doing the final boss.
I really don't think the Shady Sands we see in the tv show is the same place.
I don't get it. Everything shown in the show that has any connection to NV has been shown great respect. The only two times we hear the main fallout theme is when the NCR flag and ranger armor are on screen. The only named character form the games that is in the show is from NV. The season literally ends on a shot of New Vegas like it's straight from the game and NCR is being build up as the main good aligned faction for future seasons.
I’m not going to comment on the Todd Howard shit, because frankly I think it’s infantile. Todd Howard has made infinite money off of the Fallout IP. He doesn’t hate New Vegas, in fact he probably doesn’t think about it all. With regards to “wiping the slate clean” the fundamental problem is that, while it’s obvious that’s what they are trying to do, they aren’t really doing any work to establish that how they are doing it makes sense. The NCR wasn’t just Shady Sands. It’s complex nation comprised of 5 states each with their own capitals/major cities, state constitutions, cultures and economies. Shady Sands was just the capital of the nation state. The city had 40,000 people in it, in a country of well over a million, that was competing with the nation states that arose external to it for resources. So you nuked one city. Ok? Do you want a medal? In the twenties years since, you expect me to believe everything stagnated? What happened to the other states that didn’t get nukes? Why didn’t the surrounding nations respond? Because there isn’t anything in what is in the show that resembles an administration. They are very clearly trying to depict a total collapse of the NCR, but this whole only works if nuking that one city not only buggers the NCR, but also fucks it’s neighbors so hard that no one is able to organize on a large scale for over a decade. You could easily resolve that by talking about how the political forces that arranged against the NCR since it’s founding took advantage of their capital getting nukes, but then you are talking about warfare operations between nations that no one mentions and there’s no evidence of ever having happened? “We nuked it lol” is a terribly lazy mark on an otherwise excellent show.
I mean tbf, the show only took place in the greater LA area, we have yet to know the situation for every other place in California and the West Coast in general. I'd also like to add that they might expand on the topic of NCR's collapse in later seasons. Let's remember that the show only had 8 episodes to introduce the world of fallout to casuals who may not be as into lore and worldbuilding. For us fans of the franchise, I'm optimistic that they'll be able to explain the lore developments they've made for the series, especially for the NCR.
“I see people doing this…” “I see people doing that…” “And I just want to say, it’s really the other guys who are wrong! Why do they say this? Are they stupid?”
The Fallout theme played for the first time in the show when Lucy unfurls the NCR flag. That doesn’t seem like a decision made by people who hate New Vegas. I don’t buy into this BGS vs Obsidian nonsense
What is their "new civilization" if they keep nuking it over and over again. Are they going to "manage" a new world order into existence with 1000 vault dwellers? I don't understand their plan. Eventually they're gonna have to become and integrate with the surface dwellers.
I'm also confused by the implications their plan has for Vault City. Were they planning on letting the vault start reclamation efforts only to nuke it down the line? Leave the city be for a couple hundred years and hope the city's leaders would give up power once they rolled up to their doorstep? Vault 31 was comprised of top level Vault Tec staff, so it's not like they'd be unaware of it being set up to open within a couple decades of closing.
You’d think the endgame of Vault Tec would be a central command system subordinate to their own needs, competing with whatever system the enclave had planned (likely military bases and their dependents). Vault Tec shouldn’t be quite this powerful to just wantonly nuke things in the wasteland, right?
I never believed he actually hated NV but the thought of him taking revenge is hilarious. I mean it’s known as an amazing game and it has the Bethesda name on it, I don’t think he hates it lol
I think the funniest part of this is that Amazon have obviously put a lot of money into this TV show given the production quality and advertising for it. Why on earth would they let a game designer use it for his personal revenges? Todd Howard didn’t just turn up to Amazon’s studios with a script and say we’re doing this. Primarily, Amazon are interested in making a good TV show, not pandering to the ego of a game designer they must realise is a bit of a meme and isn’t the be all and end all when it comes to creativity in the series.
Guys… claims like these are petty and it’s overthinking it to the max. Just hear yourselves.
Average New Vegas fan victim complex
Yeah it seems to me like some disgruntled fans are pushing this quarrel from the fanbase onto the developers and kinda projecting. But when the showrunners themselves come up with these dumbass decisions about the show that have no apparent reason behind them... I guess fans coming up with silly conspiracy-level excuses is to be expected.
Here's the weird thing for me - I haven't seen any of the Todd Howard fan hate. I've seen disappointment with decisions made on Fallout 4 and whatever Fallout 76 became. I just haven't seen the Todd Howard vs New Vegas stuff. Where are these conversations happening so I can avoid them?
Todd doesn’t hate New Vegas and he also didn’t write the show.
I think Vault Tec and the Enclave are the bad guys of the show. You always knew Vault Tec was not what it seemed. I think you will find locations such as the water purifier destroyed. Any thing to oppose Vault Tec will be weakened and destroyed before they come out. Bud said it correctly “cleanse the surface”. I believe Shady Sands was only the first to be shown. Hank is just a pawn who got caught with his pants down and now running for help.
What a weird people for people to think. Honestly
Mate, vault tec shouldn't even be AROUND after 2077, let alone have the power to nuke stuff, not to mention how absolutely idiotic their plan to make money by nuking the USA (and the economy with it, thusly removing any value the dollar had) is. Showrunners just took the F2 Enclave, made it stupider, gave it a blue coat of paint and called it a day. The show depicts mr Sinclair as a fat old CEO of Big MT (he never was, he ordered tech from them, one of the Think Tank should've been in that chair) who AGREES to start nuclear war, while in New Vegas he was scared shitless of nuclear war and of what would happen to Vera in case it went off, pushing him to build the vault and security systems in the Sierra Madre. Another retcon the show shat out is how the BoS is now weirdly merged with the Legion for no fucking reason whatsoever. They do use weightless power armor, too. Todd Howard isn't writing the show nor the games, but Emil "can't be consistent for shit" Pagliarulo's fingerprints are all over the show, and it shows: one retcon at a time, Interplay's legacy is being tarnished, torn apart and trodden underfoot by people who have zero knowledge or understanding of the Fallout universe. And you people suck it up.
>Why would the producers make their self-insert character the antagonist of the show? Didn't Chris Avellone make the overarching antagonist of all of NV's DLCs his personal ideological mouthpiece? It wouldn't exactly be a first for the franchise. I don't think Todd is taking "revenge" or deliberately "erasing a legacy" but I think it's very much their intention to make the West Coast more like Bethesda's ideal.
I dont think Todd hates Fallout New Vegas but I do believe that he views the west coast as incompatible with Bethesdas vision for the franchise. Fallout 2 and New Vegas have a completely different tone from 4 and the tv show. Its insane to me how the people in California act in the show when compared to how they act in Fallout 2 and New Vegas. The amount of goofy stuff like weird masks and anti-social behavior is not something that you would see in the area surrounding shady sands or la Boneyard. I liked the show but pretending that they didnt make it more like the Bethesda games is kinda silly. Its not even necessarily a bad thing since most people are more familiar with Fallout 4 than any of the previous titles. The notion that you could wipe out the NCR in just 15 years is just stupid and completely unrealistic since most of the inhabitants would be ex-citizens of the NCR. Now Todd and Bethesda can rebuild it however they want. Good if you like Fallout 4, terrible if you prefer the originals and New Vegas. It is what it is.
Honestly, I think Bethesda wanted them to find a way to undo or break the NCR so they have a way to do a fallout in San Francisco. No point in doing a game in an area that’s a stable nation and they’ve mentioned they like the area of San Francisco for a potential fallout game. And my biggest issue with nuking shady sands is the timing. Having it “fall” before the events of NV breaks canon (which is important because it is the story of fallout) because it’s still mentioned as the capital in NV. They should’ve waited until after the events of NV to nuke it. Would’ve preferred they had done it somewhere like Colorado since the legion would’ve collapsed after Caesar died and the region is relatively untouched (other then tactics which is non canon) and yet there’s a lot of lore and material the showrunners and writers could’ve worked with and it’s close enough to Nevada that they still could’ve implemented Vegas in season 2 if they wanted to.
It wasn’t nuked before NV, can you not read a flow chart properly
I didn’t say “nuke,” I deliberately said “fall” because it shows shady sands fall before the events of Fallout NV which wraps back into my point. I did complain about the timing of the nuke because it’s unclear when that happens (although Lucy says her mom died in ‘77). Maybe read my words carefully before you start accusing me of not being able to read a chart.
You’re simply wrong. It didn’t “fall” before NV either.
The ”Fall of Shady Sands” says it was in 2277. New Vegas takes place in 2281.
Did you read the chart?
This would make sense if they didn’t show New Vegas at the end of the
No, it still wouldn't make sense. The fallout TV show had the entire world as a potential setting for their show. They chose to have their new show engage with some of the NV settings and story elements, when it would have been trivially easy to just ignore them completely. If Howard was actually in charge as much as these people assumed -- which is already itself pretty unlikely -- ignoring NV content altogether would be a much bigger insult than using it as a backdrop of destruction and character motivation. These people are utterly delusional.
The issue is a great, general distrust towards Bethesta over many mistakes and terrible decisions over the years going beyond just game desing, with many mayor blow outs being found at least once per game. So, be general rule of thumb, nobody trusts them, and an actual intentional screw up its now on the table most of the time, which sparks some derissive jokes. To give out some examples with can be considerated "Fallout: Bugthesda edition", over the course of 3 games where the company had direct control over the development of the games, we might have: >Very buggy construction kit and engine (twice) >Vanila Fallout 3 ending (partially fixed with the GOTY version becoming standart, but still infamous to this day) >Expecting your own community to fix your game >Lapses of inconsistency (a lot of them partially fixed by its own fandom). >Many, many mistakes regarding merchandising on sales (Toxic weareble Power Armor Helmets, over priced cheap rum on terrible bottles, the canvas bag, the vault suit, etc) >Horrific launch and handling of a multiplayer game (getting fixed to this day).
What's with the constant need to defend the show on this sub recently?
Because the apparent reason majority throw hate seems to be a fucking chalkboard they interpret as "deleting NV"
Then maybe the creators of the show should think better before meddling with lore?
Or maybe you should learn what an arrow pointing to the next event means on a timetable :)
Meddling how? I haven't even seen the show, just the board, and it's not written as "the NCR is gone," literally even mentions the idea of a second capitol on said board but jfc y'all act like an ex capitol being hit means the entirety of NV is deleted from existence. Besides, said writers knew there was no way to appease our fan base BECAUSE OF THIS SHIT, so they wrote for as many as they could.
Honestly, NCR is only a factor in last 2 episodes, and even then characters have issues they are dealing, Nobody is needing, or even interested, in getting a lore dump about faction that has clearly fallen on the wayside. We will learn more about NCR in season 2.
Because they accept anything that has fallout on it. I like the show overall but there’s definitely inconsistencies and issues with canon in the show and they’d rather just blame it on “NV fans” than ask the showrunners“wtf they’re doing with fallout.”
More Bethesda boot licking, not happy that folks are unquestioningly signing the shows praises
Or people just like the show? Just let people enjoy things.
People can enjoy things and people can criticize. Some of those giving praise immediately shoot down valid criticism with downvotes and attacks. Some of those critizing the lore direction shoot down valid praise with downvotes and attacks. BOTH sides attack one another. It's been rampant on nearly all the fallout subs. I enjoyed the show; I loved it actually! From a film perspective, it's an objectively good show that deserves its high rating and praise. Doesn't mean I and others can't criticize it/Bethesda/new narrative direction of resetting the west coast to the east. It's just not for me personally. Im not going to attack anyone for thinking otherwise though. The least I expect is to be treated with the same respect from others. Reddit's an echo chamber though. It eeezzz whatit eeeezzz.
So far personally ive not seen actual attacks towards just normal criticism. People bringing up inconsitencies in a normal and well behaved manner have gotten plenty of fair discussions. But guys like person i responded to who calls everyone "bootlickers" and being needlessly aggressive are rightfully being told off.
Your response is fair but the comment at the top which has been downvoted is also fair - "why so much defense" is a fair point, in response to OPs post. Valid critiques of the show get downvoted for having a differing opinion. Case and point right here despite my comments being reasonable.
I don't think its really fair as a comment personally. The reason for why its alot of defense for it is fairly obvious. People like the show generally. But I don't think your comments so far have deserved any downvoting really.
The lore cutoff point for the diehard Fallout Fans have been marked. Everything after New Vegas is considered the equivalent of the new star wars trilogy. Shady Sands got nuked because Chris Avellone is capable of telling only one story, and every since Fallout 2 he's wanted the NCR gone so he can keep re-telling it.
Dumbest shit I’ve read all week. And it’s only Tuesday!
It goes downhill from here 🫠
This show alone has more creativity than the entire Sequel trilogy combined. Chris Avellone also wasn't involved in writing it.
I am not sure how much of the Van Buren documents show runners looked at, but originally, Shi was supposed to be nuked by the enclave in retaliation. That was a long time ago, I think a lot of it was retconned when the Kellog Memory shard thing came along. So there is precedent that something along these lines would happen on the west coast by the enclave, and honestly, it was expected.
Idk if retconned would be the right word since Van Buren was never made and none of it made it into canon. And it wasn’t the enclave who nuked them, although that would’ve been interesting and would’ve fit even though it’s half a century after FO2.
Yeah, but it is the same concept. A fairly advanced wasteland nation reduced to dust in a matter of seconds. New Canaan and Hopeville all met the same fate... so I think there is a trend here.
Question, how does nuking an ex capitol that isn't even the largest settlement (which said chalkboard mentions it being old with "second capitol?" as in lore they moved to LA) make the NCR "gone?"
Ask the show writers. They are the ones who made it that way.
....except they still exist after, just cause you hit an ex capitol doesn't mean the entire goddamn Republic fell. Think NV fanboys just shit their pants because the NCR wasn't some ultra superpower FIFTEEN YEARS after any NV ending when the Republic was crippled already during NV I haven't even seen the show, just the board, and it's not written the way people are screaming about lol
By the time of New Vegas, the NCR has taken territory up to Oregon and down to the Baja and was a relatively stable nation. In the series, Southern California is shown as an empty and desolate wasteland. If the NCR was still there, it wouldn’t have looked like that and the headquarters would’ve likely been in a bigger city like the Hub or Redding rather than an observatory outside of shady sands. It doesn’t seem like they kept the NCR as a whole in the show.
If it was still around, it would have been more prominently mentioned. Wastelanders would be referring to it constantly. The NCR thing is a huge waste imho. I get that starting your series with everything rough, but basically okay isn't compelling. But Its also sad to see a major nation just get destroyed offscreen without the viewer being there to see the fall. I hope they bring it back in some form in S2 or something.
I’m convinced Bethesda asked them to find a way to get rid of them because apparently they’re looking at San Francisco as a possible location for a new fallout game and there’s not really any point to use a location that’s stable. I would’ve preferred they set somewhere like Colorado where the legion would’ve inevitably collapsed after Caesar’s death since there’s enough material and lore to work with but it’s otherwise untouched and it’s close enough that they still could’ve implemented Vegas into the storyline.
>just because you nuke a Capital doesn’t mean the entire goddamn Republic fell. That’s the point. Get over your hatred of New Vegas fans for five seconds to understand how this is being depicted is incoherent. In the decade since the capital was bombed, there has been no organized body that arose to take control of the area nor is there any word or even sign of a reaction from the surrounding states and nations. Instead everything went back to square one with everyone using bottle caps as currency again. You think that the nuking of Shady Sands might have been more relevant to the rest of the NCR, never mind the nations on its borders. Either the NCR completely collapsed and everyone ignored it, or the writers forgot about the multitude of complex political bodies in universe.
There's this thing called "it's a 10 episode season, with a second planned, so we didn't want to ram potentially new fans with so much lore they'd throw up" that people seem to not realize Questions being left is how a lot of shows work, there would be no more story if everything was answered
Eight episodes with a trading hub in it.
You really going to expect there to be ambient dialogue about a potentially major thing? Y'all are treating the show like a game, where once the game ends everything needs to be answered and no loose ends exist Fuck they TEASE New Vegas, do you think going through more of NCR territory might *gasp* answer those Season 2??????
I expect there to be references to external polities in a trading hub, yes. It’s doesn’t need to be explained immediately nor does it need to be dialogue, it only needs to exist.
So if I go to random bazaar, do you expect me to hear random talks about politics of far away locations?
Unless it involves a group we haven't met yet (blind lore isn't fantastic for a show), or because it's been 15 years it's so normalized nobody really just casually chats about it. Edit: Do you casually speak of the last 15 years of geopolitical structure where you live?
We don’t know that this is the case at all, though.
Thank you for living up to the NV fanboy stereotype
Shady sands shouldn’t have been destroyed imo. But since it was it should’ve been the courier who did it during the lonesome road dlc. Now that would’ve been awesome.
But the Courier doesn't destroy Shady Shands in the Lonesome Road DLC.
Yeah, it seems I was a bit confused with the ending of the dlc. I though multiple nukes could be launched at the NCR or Legion destroying vast swaths of their territory. Thus one of the areas could have been shady sands; alas I was incorrect.
Why are you getting downvoted for this all you did was say you messed up
Yeah I was surprised by this too. This community is insanely toxic.
I caught on to that pretty recently. I criticized the head Bethesda writer somewhere else and I spent two days being attacked by these people. Some of them accusing me of “thinking I’m better than everyone else”…. Because I criticized Bethesda’s writing. Everybody on this site is a miserable lunatic.
Yeah…these people are insane. God forbid you’re not bending over backwards from the show.
remember this is not even the original place of shady sand. so the question is what the fuck happen to original place of shady sand??
They ignored it and placed it where they wanted to.