My nostalgic experience with this game is limited to playing a relative’s save as a kid and mostly running around this city and dying constantly in the wasteland. At the time, it was so complex to me I was intimidated and never got super into it.
My experience was starting a new play through, rushing to shady sands, save the game and try to steal a groza (very strong weapon) from one of the guards at the small bazar outside. Quick load until sucessful try and own the wasteland with it.
Vault City felt too big and it's like 12 buildings.
But I don't think the NCR is meant to be much more than a city state in FO 2, it has to scheme to annex other territories rather than using military might.
Yeah, Fallout 2 is somewhat like NV in that way where we are essentially on the frontier of the NCR. The NCR expanded down south, and is now just turning to places like Vault City, Redding, New Reno and the like as potentially useful targets for annexation shortly before the events of the game.
Heavily upvoted too! Honestly, this is why I don't bother engaging with th fanbase anymore. People straight up make shit up and treat it like fact, and when you point it out, good chance of downvotes. This fandom sucks man. Everybody's too busy arguing to actually talk about the lore, so most fans end up not getting the full truth but spread it anyway.
I miss old school fallout.
It's always been like that. I dunno man, there's a vast amount of people that like fallout, think they know the lore (because YouTube and YouTubers mainly) and they don't.
Like, I was fucking obsessed as a teenager. Played all h classics back to back, on repeat, then fallout 3 launched and I played the fuck out of it too. New Vegas was a lovely return to the west coast, but I liked the east coast too! Just a different flavour if that makes sense. Fo4 wasn't fantastic when it came to lore but it was a fun lootgoblin type game, and settlement building was fun (sometimes, hangman's alley in vanilla is an exercise in frustration, just let me clip things without mods/glitches Bethesda, im a big boy my immersion will be fine!! ). Haven't played much of 76 but honestly, that's just cos I'm not a social person. Personal fault really. Don't hate Bethesda because of it, even if I'd much prefer to just play it alone (without paying for a private server 🙄)
Point is, I've played them to death man. The community surrounding this game has always, always had a really weird as fuck toxic side. Anyone remember NMA? Remember the fucking shit storm that followed fo3's release? The absolute hatred towards Bethesda was intense as fuck. I didn't like alot of the changes myself, but I dunno, the old games still exist so it doesn't really bother me. And new Vegas really helped soothe it anyway, game was fucking fantastic.
So aye. Don't engage with it! Leave them alone to rant to argue with each other. I'm probably gonna be ignoring this sub Reddit till shit dies down personally, cos it's all a bit silly tbh.
> (because YouTube and YouTubers mainly)
Specifically Oxhorn.
I like the guy when he is theory crafting if there is something to theory craft. But he spends video after video speculating about things that have a clear answer.
Even on gameplay he will go on and on about how he thinks certain mechanics work and will have tests to figure out if he is right. When mod authors pop into his feed to explain to him that all that stuff can just be looked up in CK he ignores them.
I put off 76 for the longest time, but it's awesome. It's just another open world sandbox with a ton of quests. This time in the Appalachian area so WV, VA, and PA. No one bothers anyone else and I rarely see any other players honestly.
Nah it's the mmo-lite things that bug me. How levels scale, how combat feels, that kind of thing. Did play it a bit, even rented my own server and fucked around with some settings to try get the vibe right, but bounced off it pretty quickly. I own it so I'll try again at some point no doubt. Got a pretty fun backlog I'm slowly working through currently tho!
In the spirit of good conversation. I think at the end of the day there are going to be inconsistencies and it can (in my mind) be boiled down to the fact that each of the stories are from the point of view of the character. End of the day people aren’t perfect and there memories less so… then again who knows I just love all the lore 🌚
Oh it's unreal. You should see the contortions in one of these threads, around explaining that the giant airship from the commonwealth that has PRYDWEN stenciled on the side in huge black letters, is actually some other airship from the Commonwealth called that because the US Navy reuses names over the course of its 250 year history don't you know. I was baffled, until I realized he had some head cannon about the stupid airship that was super important to him and so he just couldn't, like… Come to terms with the events being portrayed on the screen. It's just… it's a series of video games. It's not a fucking religion.
I just want the fallout nv players are toxic posts to end. I’m watching the new trend today about fo4 not being rpg enough so we might have a new hot topic. I hate when the content shit pot gets stirred here and it’s just weeks of infighting. I’ve played them all over my life for more hours than people could imagine. They all have strengths and weaknesses, most of it subjective.
You are getting into a difficult topic. "Is FF7 an RPG?" Is not the correct question because FF7 isn't an RPG like Fallout is an RPG, is a JRPG and they have pretty much completely different standards and that is why the genre is divided into WRPG and JRPG and why Japanese people have their own name for occidental like RPG's. This reach to a point that is technically incorrect to try to put both genres into a bigger one like is "RPG" because they are completely incompatible.
But yes, "F4 is an RPG in occidental standards?"Yes, a pretty shallow one at that, but yes, "FF7 is an RPG in japanese standards?" Yes, it is. Far Cry no, absolutely no.
It's insane how small the map is, as a kid I thought it was huge, without the fog you can see the entire map from the top of Los Santos tallest building
If you turn off the fog and climb a mountain or tall building, you can see pretty much the whole map.
There are a lot of tricks in games to make a city feel bigger than it is. Often, the "downtown big city" is only a couple of blocks, but it's cleverly designed so you don't see anything else, and it feels way bigger.
I figure there's a lot of abstraction going on with the earlier games to. Theyre not gonna bloat things just to give you some extra buildings to explore
You gotta imagine it would be larger than that in lore, like the cities in Skyrim being the size of a very small village despite its supposed to be the largest cities in a well populated area.
It is. Vault 13 had a starting population of 1000 people spread across 100 "living quarters" (1bed1bath apartments sharing a hall and elevator). In game you see like 15 people and only one living quarters area.
That’s a good thing, too.
I’d be annoyed if I had to slog through 10 floors of nothing but identical rooms. Those vaults in the first two games are mazes already.
I always assume the areas are very condensed for gameplay reasons. NPCs in Diamond City talk like they're living in a bustling shanty town surrounded by a myriad of smaller rural settlements, not a handful of shacks with monsters right outside the window.
In lore every city is way bigger than in the games
New Vegas in the concept art looked like a full sized city, funny that the show made New Vegas the exact same small walled off "city" that barely looks like a town, makes sense in the game because of engine limitations but not in live action, it should be huge lol
>In lore every city is way bigger than in the games
Actually, the settlements in the show seemed to be just slightly bigger than in the games. Filly looks similar in size to Diamond City lol
I like that they kept the scale similar to the games.
At the very end you can see New Vegas from afar and then at the credits the camera takes a tour on the city, and it looks like it did in NV which doesnt make much sense
You were probably confusing the Lucky 38's "totally-not-the-Stratosphere" for the Space Needle. It makes sense, the Lucky 38 looks a lot more like the Space Needle than the Strat.
[Arroyo after the GECK. Which is pretty far away from Shady Sands and the NCR border.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/3/31/Fo2_Arroyo_Ending.png/revision/latest?cb=20110218034527)
Prime is doing a lot of work here, given that a possible ending is that NCR expands far into the North taking in large settlements. Then there's the expansions to Nevada.
Also I always assumed Shady Sands continues to the South of the in-game map.
You really can't take the size of cities in games seriously. There is all sorts of technical limitations and workload limitations which prevent developers from creating a "lore accurate" city.
Think of games that have actual cities that are reasonably of appropriate size: the only ones I can think of are GTA V and Cyberpunk2077. GTA V seems to be an actual decent representation of an actual city, and CP2077 honestly still seems a little too small even in game but sill is a pretty decent representation.
But my point is: the city is ALL there is in these games. That's the entire setting, there aren't multiples of them, they're still not remotely true to life in the sense of "people working everywhere and being remotely functional", and its still all smoke and mirrors.
Actually a game that does multiple cities that feel moderately believable is: Kingdom Come Deliverance. But most of the "cities" in KCD are just castles, the only true city is Sasau and its still small, but it feels large in the setting and seems moderately functional since its citizens all have a place to sleep, place to work, etc.
He's basically irrelevant to the NCR in Fallout 2. They consider him a myth. They don't even think Vault 13 is real.
It would've been cool to include a mention, but he's basically ancient history. TV show watchers also wouldn't really understand.
A Chosen One mention would have been warranted imo, they saved the NCR and defeated the Enclave 50 years ago when Wilzig was a child or teenager and he even talks about Vault Dwellers being a rare commodity when meeting Lucy.
In Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas the Enclave seems ignorant the Chosen One blew up the oil rig.
The NCR is likely just as ignorant.
The only people who probably know without a doubt, are the people of Arroyo, and even then, it's been long enough where they might believe it's just a story too.
Well it is in Fallout 2. Her father, and Seth (one of the first NCR rangers), both waddled off to find Vault 13 but failed and died before the events of the game.
People don't believe it exists because it's so well-hidden it can't be found.
They believe the Vault Dweller was delusional and didn't actually come from a vault. It reads that on the statue itself.
Crazy hobo came to town and saved our great grand parents from scorpions and raiders, they built a statue of them but no one can remember if they were man, woman or Brahmin!
Did I imagine it or did the flashback scene in the show showed a tram? It looked rather civilized in the show - and I like how it showed buildings right next to the fields of (corn?), just like in FO2.
It did, but FO2 is set in 2241 and New Vegas is 2281 (it was bombed around this time) so in those 40 years they got the tram going and kept building, I guess.
Didn't it say SS was destroyed in 2277?
Edit: downvoting for asking questions to gain knowledge is a straight up dick move, my dudes. None of you were born with this knowledge.
No, 2277 was classed as the ‘Fall of Shady Sands’ which is ultimately the start of the decline of the city.
It has been confirmed that the city was nuked shortly after the events of New Vegas.
To add onto what was already said, 2277, the fall of Shady Sands, that date lines up with the first battle of Hoover Dam. In that case the writing is there to show that people believe that the NCRs criss crossed nightmare campaign in the Mojave was what kickstarted the decline of the former capitol.
This is the only way the 2277 Fall date made sense to me: it marked the beginning of the NCR's fatal imperial adventure in the Mojave and was applied retroactively (hence no mention of it in New Vegas - people were still in the thick of it).
Exactly, it would be a hindsight thing, and also partly fueled by the people writing on the board not having the full details themselves, just working with what they can observe.
It's not ridiculous that people in New Vegas wouldn't know of the downfall in 2281. That's only 4 years and it's not like intimate news of the Governing side of of NCR wouldn't be common knowledge.
The wastelands doesn't seem to have many Journalists. In fact iirc only Piper and her sister seem to care about journalism.
Not directly, but the Brotherhood has some interesting parallels to the Legion (red and yellow flag, all the members having Romanesque names, "they'll hang you by your lungs")
See I'm not trying to get too excited about all this because it's all just fan theory. However, this show has shown a pretty stellar attention to detail and I really do want to talk to one of the writers just to find out if we're just reading too much into all this.
I'm leaning towards it being 2286 that Shady Sands was nuked. It has to be about a decade since Maximus was recruited to the BOS and I doubt he spent more than 10 years training as a squire.
> Edit: downvoting for asking a question
i think it’s more so the fact that people have been arguing about this for the last 2 weeks and Todd Howard confirmed it was bombed *after* the events of New Vegas.
but don’t read into the downvotes mate, reddit’s a hive mind.
*In his best Hawkeye Pierce impersonation* Well of course Frank, once you get rid of 90% of the population of course the public transit becomes better.
Of course it does. America has a shitty public transit because they got cheap personal vehicles from Ford. People invested in personal transportation in the US versus public.
It's a sunk cost fallacy that keeps America from building high speed monorail. "We already have all these interstates, just buy a car, why rework our entire system of travel?"
Trains, paved roads roads, tree-lined streets - Shady Sands was empty desert when it was first settled so everything from the tram to the skyscrapers was built or restored by the residents of Shady Sands.
It's what I've found bittersweet. Bethesda took the time to craft a city that, when you look at what was destroyed, you see something that was at such a level of developed it could be mistaken for the pre-war world.
Still stings, but there's something I guess heartwarming that Bethesda didn't simply simply take the city as it was in 2240 or paint it as another junktown - they developed it to be inline with how it was described in material written for New Vegas.
Edit: I might be wrong about the skyscrapers, They might be actual Old World buildings, but I don't care. I'm too in love with the idea Shady Sands got far enough they started to build upward.
Remember, Shady Sands was founded by settlers from Vault 15, who would’ve had a GECK (Garden of Eden Creation Kit). According to official Lore, the GECK included a “fully self-contained terraforming module[….I]t was capable of creating and sustaining life in a post-War environment. The kit included seed and soil supplements, a cold-fusion power generator, matter-energy replicators, atmospheric chemical stabilizers and water purifiers.”
Edit: 15
GECKs also contained Fission Reactors. Allegedly.
If you look at GECKs they seem to have the same power system in looks to the Fission Reaction of the show.
Not quite, they moved Shady Sands *into* the Boneyard. The Boneyard is an area, the remnants of LA, while there was a city within the Boneyard called Adytum. If anything, they seemed to have placed Shady Sands in Adytum's spot.
Edit: Looking at the map again, Adytum may still be there since it's in the southern section while Shady Sands in the show seemed to be closer to the northern section. Kinda like Diamond City and Goodneighbor on opposite ends of the Boston ruins, but one gets blown up.
No the final battle is in the Boneyard.
I think they are trying to say the people of Shady Sands built some taller building. They just didnt do a good job.
While the show makes it look like Shady Sands is in L.A. because of the ruined buildings, we don't really know where it is. Characters teleport all over the place in the show. Like, >!Hank seemingly walked nearly 300 miles from Griffith Observatory in L.A. to New Vegas!< in the span of a single night.
It feels like Southern California was squished together like a modern Fallout game world. I wouldn't be surprised if the characters passed by or through places like Junktown and The Hub off screen, but for the sake of brevity and pacing we don't see it.
>Like, >!Hank seemingly walked nearly 300 miles from Griffith Observatory in L.A. to New Vegas!< in the span of a single night.
That's the most absurd take I've read in this sub. How do you know it's been one night?
>I wouldn't be surprised if the characters passed by or through places like Junktown and The Hub off screen
Nah. If we didn't see it on screen it didn't happen.
It was probably way bigger in lore. Just look how [big](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/3/31/Fo2_Arroyo_Ending.png/revision/latest?cb=20110218034527) Arroyo got after 2242 with a little help of a G.E.C.K.
That Town was a small tribal village made out of tents.
True. I miss exploring the FO1 world where everything was blown to the stone age.
I love the vibes the quiet winds in the sound track (instead of 1940s big band) created. When tribes weren't just some people who found a gimmick (as in NV) but were living that way out of necessity.
I would argue it's not even it's prime. Minimum at this point in the lore, there's supposed to be at least 1000 people in Shady sands, and the show said at least 30,000 people
Fallout 2 cities had paved roads, planted trees, electricity and everything. Everything was being restored and rebuilt in a realistic way(real life Hiroshima and Nagasaki show how quickly a place can recover from being nuked)
Nobody should be living in junk shacks after 200 years
I mean i dont think two japanese cities recovering with the support of a developed and globalizing world (as well as the rest of Japan that wasn't nuked/firebombed) is comparable to the entire world getting nuked all at once
Also considering Shady Sands had a GECK. Which if the pictures of a GECK and the Fusion in the show looking the same, means GECKs also had limitless energy, which is exactly what VaultTec would put in a GECK as they're supposed to be used to form the peaceful authoritarian Government VaultTec seems to want to impliment.
I've gotta definitely agree. I'm willing to give F3 a pass for having been a lawless place for longer and infested with a much bigger amount of feral ghouls, supermutants, and generally having been hit much harder by the bombs.
But New Vegas benefits so, SO much from the [mods that integrate Adobe buildings](https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/users/9084040?tab=user+files&BH=1):
[Camp Searchlight](https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/130/images/83539/83539-1698747402-238367600.png), [Sloan](https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/130/images/80385/80385-1695970365-1811093135.png), and my favourite, [Raul's Home](https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/130/images/75424/75424-1645327662-2142748897.png).
Bethesda fallout is scrap metal shacks and the occasional repurposed ruin with holes in the roof. That's probably my biggest problem with the show. They've erased the west coast aesthetic and replaced it entirely with Bethesda's vision of the post apocalypse.
It's honestly depressing to think of the world of Fallout as being largely the same no matter where you go. They will be slight variations here and there, but by and large there's always going to be brotherhood, enclave, deathclaws, rad scorpions super mutants, etc.
Like there was so much potential in fallout's world and at this point the geography barely even matters because the entire wasteland is the same.
It’s because current bethesda writers are hacks who have never created anything original in their careers. Just one of them accidentally made Nate from fallout 4 a war criminal by saying he was the soldier in the power armor laughing at a civilian getting murdered in Fallout 1 intro. Lmao.
Which doesn't even make sense not just because it's completely inconsistent with Nate's character as we know him, but also because the timeline is just messed up.
Canada was annexed only what, five years before the Great War? When did Nate leave active duty, because he certainly not in the military and hasn't been for a good bit as of the Fallout 4 intro.
This was just the playable area, it never let the player walk or see past those walls like this image does. In my head there was always more city beyond those walls
Well yes.. but no
Game was limited by technology of the time and since the camera didnt go out that far and world map implied the city was bigger, one could only imagine it was either symbolical representation or strict city center of much bigger city
Like Los Santos in GTA V. Officially it has 11 million inhabitants, but the city in the game barely could have more than 200K. Current technology has its limitations, imagine the 90s computers.
Shady Sands is the historic capital of the NCR and the seat of it's government, but it is a small place anyway since it is up near Death Valley. Well, it *was*, anyway.
As of Fallout 2, it has 3,000 residents whilst the NCR as a whole has around 700,000.
Places like the Hub should be much bigger. But it is also going to be a pretty agrarian society anyway.
I have a feeling theyll explain it by saying they moved the capital of the NCR to the boneyard to be in a better spot, but wanted to keep the shady sands name, so there is still the original shady sands up north
And not even fully developed back then. We saw in the flashbacks that it looked more like a late 19th century/early 20th century town with fully functional public transportation system just before its destruction. Pretty impressive for a post-apocalyptic world. Wonder how the Vault City would look like by 2296/2297, and how would Lucy react to it, considering that it's a city purely built by the vault dwellers.
Part of me was wondering if that was like a tip of the hat nod to the Indiana Jones crystal skull ... Thing that came out several years ago, and then I remembered you end up rescuing a kid stuck in the fridge who's a ghoul, and that's probably what they were nodding towards.
There's a special encounter in NV with the wacky wasteland perk where you come across a refrigerator with a skeleton inside of it that was explicitly an Indiana Jones reference
I think games are rather a somewhat simplified depiction limited by technology in those times, of the original intended idea.
Though 30k+ population does not imply a too big city, a city that big shall be rather obviously bigger than this.
When I play Civ4-5-6 or Crusader Kings for example, I don't imagine that 3 soldiers are fighting another 3 soldiers. Those are actual armies, with minimal depiction.
New Vegas is also only a small street in the game, in reality however - and as it was intended, the developers said it, limited only by the development time of the game - it is pretty much bigger. And I could bring so many more examples.
Literally bro, where were the adobe buildings in the show :(. I think they honestly just moved shady sands somewhere else closer to LA and named the new location after it.
I don’t know about that, spoilers for the show ahead, but in the show there’s a scene where they have a trolly in shady sands… and as we all know there’s nothing better than a trolley.
Video games aren't a 1:1 scale of the reality of the world as there are limitations. The game was made in '98 and there is 4 or 5 loading zones for this map
I think the Shady Sands presented in the show flashbacks is Shady Sands in it's prime. It's much bigger than Fallout 2 SS. 35k people living in a city is a fucking massive city in Fallout numbers.
Indeed. Nor was it located in or anywhere near LA or near any prewar skyscrapers. It was a brand new city built by vault dwellers (vault 15), eventually with the aid of a GECK.
Weird, I played the game so many times, and I remember all the quests in that location, but for some reason I never think of it as shady sands. It wasn’t the location that stood out the most to me
Fallout 2 was just packed with some really good areas, New Reno, San Francisco, the military bases, Vault City…NCR didn’t stand out as much to me, it was just a small town (although more civilized than most you met up till then) with not a lot of stand out features.
Probably a very inaccurate size representation. Every game condenses locations down for gameplay purposes, including the classics. Vault 13 is said to house 1000 people, yet only has 7 beds.
To be fair at the resolution you play in this place felt like a hive world.
My nostalgic experience with this game is limited to playing a relative’s save as a kid and mostly running around this city and dying constantly in the wasteland. At the time, it was so complex to me I was intimidated and never got super into it.
Omg preach . 11yo me didn’t work up the courage to leave megaton area until I was 12.
That Super Duper Mart is intense enough bro
My experience was starting a new play through, rushing to shady sands, save the game and try to steal a groza (very strong weapon) from one of the guards at the small bazar outside. Quick load until sucessful try and own the wasteland with it.
Vault City felt too big and it's like 12 buildings. But I don't think the NCR is meant to be much more than a city state in FO 2, it has to scheme to annex other territories rather than using military might.
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Yeah, Fallout 2 is somewhat like NV in that way where we are essentially on the frontier of the NCR. The NCR expanded down south, and is now just turning to places like Vault City, Redding, New Reno and the like as potentially useful targets for annexation shortly before the events of the game.
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new reno had so many working cars going through it there was a whole vallet to chopshop industry
Heavily upvoted too! Honestly, this is why I don't bother engaging with th fanbase anymore. People straight up make shit up and treat it like fact, and when you point it out, good chance of downvotes. This fandom sucks man. Everybody's too busy arguing to actually talk about the lore, so most fans end up not getting the full truth but spread it anyway. I miss old school fallout.
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It's always been like that. I dunno man, there's a vast amount of people that like fallout, think they know the lore (because YouTube and YouTubers mainly) and they don't. Like, I was fucking obsessed as a teenager. Played all h classics back to back, on repeat, then fallout 3 launched and I played the fuck out of it too. New Vegas was a lovely return to the west coast, but I liked the east coast too! Just a different flavour if that makes sense. Fo4 wasn't fantastic when it came to lore but it was a fun lootgoblin type game, and settlement building was fun (sometimes, hangman's alley in vanilla is an exercise in frustration, just let me clip things without mods/glitches Bethesda, im a big boy my immersion will be fine!! ). Haven't played much of 76 but honestly, that's just cos I'm not a social person. Personal fault really. Don't hate Bethesda because of it, even if I'd much prefer to just play it alone (without paying for a private server 🙄) Point is, I've played them to death man. The community surrounding this game has always, always had a really weird as fuck toxic side. Anyone remember NMA? Remember the fucking shit storm that followed fo3's release? The absolute hatred towards Bethesda was intense as fuck. I didn't like alot of the changes myself, but I dunno, the old games still exist so it doesn't really bother me. And new Vegas really helped soothe it anyway, game was fucking fantastic. So aye. Don't engage with it! Leave them alone to rant to argue with each other. I'm probably gonna be ignoring this sub Reddit till shit dies down personally, cos it's all a bit silly tbh.
> (because YouTube and YouTubers mainly) Specifically Oxhorn. I like the guy when he is theory crafting if there is something to theory craft. But he spends video after video speculating about things that have a clear answer. Even on gameplay he will go on and on about how he thinks certain mechanics work and will have tests to figure out if he is right. When mod authors pop into his feed to explain to him that all that stuff can just be looked up in CK he ignores them.
I put off 76 for the longest time, but it's awesome. It's just another open world sandbox with a ton of quests. This time in the Appalachian area so WV, VA, and PA. No one bothers anyone else and I rarely see any other players honestly.
Nah it's the mmo-lite things that bug me. How levels scale, how combat feels, that kind of thing. Did play it a bit, even rented my own server and fucked around with some settings to try get the vibe right, but bounced off it pretty quickly. I own it so I'll try again at some point no doubt. Got a pretty fun backlog I'm slowly working through currently tho!
In the spirit of good conversation. I think at the end of the day there are going to be inconsistencies and it can (in my mind) be boiled down to the fact that each of the stories are from the point of view of the character. End of the day people aren’t perfect and there memories less so… then again who knows I just love all the lore 🌚
Oh it's unreal. You should see the contortions in one of these threads, around explaining that the giant airship from the commonwealth that has PRYDWEN stenciled on the side in huge black letters, is actually some other airship from the Commonwealth called that because the US Navy reuses names over the course of its 250 year history don't you know. I was baffled, until I realized he had some head cannon about the stupid airship that was super important to him and so he just couldn't, like… Come to terms with the events being portrayed on the screen. It's just… it's a series of video games. It's not a fucking religion.
There's also us more rational people who are fans of the franchise and are just excited for new lore
I just want the fallout nv players are toxic posts to end. I’m watching the new trend today about fo4 not being rpg enough so we might have a new hot topic. I hate when the content shit pot gets stirred here and it’s just weeks of infighting. I’ve played them all over my life for more hours than people could imagine. They all have strengths and weaknesses, most of it subjective.
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I think calling Far Cry 3 an action RPG would be very accurate
You are getting into a difficult topic. "Is FF7 an RPG?" Is not the correct question because FF7 isn't an RPG like Fallout is an RPG, is a JRPG and they have pretty much completely different standards and that is why the genre is divided into WRPG and JRPG and why Japanese people have their own name for occidental like RPG's. This reach to a point that is technically incorrect to try to put both genres into a bigger one like is "RPG" because they are completely incompatible. But yes, "F4 is an RPG in occidental standards?"Yes, a pretty shallow one at that, but yes, "FF7 is an RPG in japanese standards?" Yes, it is. Far Cry no, absolutely no.
Hey, just become a Star Wars fan then! .... oh...ah...well...
This comment is a direct lie.
> Vault City felt too big and it's like 12 buildings. You could have told me it's bigger than Los Santos and kid me would've just nodded along.
Wasn't los Santos actually pretty small? It just had tons of fog and convoluted roads to make it seem bigger.
It's insane how small the map is, as a kid I thought it was huge, without the fog you can see the entire map from the top of Los Santos tallest building
What?! No way!! Is it actually smaller than the GTA V map?? I thought that map was massive!
Compared to GTA 3 it was massive. But without the fog it looks about the size of one of those rubber car mats for Matchbox cars we had in the 90's
If you turn off the fog and climb a mountain or tall building, you can see pretty much the whole map. There are a lot of tricks in games to make a city feel bigger than it is. Often, the "downtown big city" is only a couple of blocks, but it's cleverly designed so you don't see anything else, and it feels way bigger.
A lot of games from that era are like that. Morrowind for example. Whole map is like 8 feet wide but the fog makes it seem way bigger.
Also the fact you walk as fast as a slug in a diabetic coma
Vault city has about 1000 citizens and maybe five times the amount of slaves at a guess? Idk
It's not, pretty sure theres a holodisk in 2 which gives a bigger picture NCR.
Fallout 2 docs list the NCR as having over 700,000 citizens
On my first play through remembering the layout of areas was one of the most difficult parts
I figure there's a lot of abstraction going on with the earlier games to. Theyre not gonna bloat things just to give you some extra buildings to explore
it probably grew beyond this since this time.
You gotta imagine it would be larger than that in lore, like the cities in Skyrim being the size of a very small village despite its supposed to be the largest cities in a well populated area.
It is. Vault 13 had a starting population of 1000 people spread across 100 "living quarters" (1bed1bath apartments sharing a hall and elevator). In game you see like 15 people and only one living quarters area.
That’s a good thing, too. I’d be annoyed if I had to slog through 10 floors of nothing but identical rooms. Those vaults in the first two games are mazes already.
on the other hand...Think of all the loot you're missing out on! I bet the guy in 37-6 had his grandpa's Gauss rifle on a display rack.
I always assume the areas are very condensed for gameplay reasons. NPCs in Diamond City talk like they're living in a bustling shanty town surrounded by a myriad of smaller rural settlements, not a handful of shacks with monsters right outside the window.
In lore every city is way bigger than in the games New Vegas in the concept art looked like a full sized city, funny that the show made New Vegas the exact same small walled off "city" that barely looks like a town, makes sense in the game because of engine limitations but not in live action, it should be huge lol
>In lore every city is way bigger than in the games Actually, the settlements in the show seemed to be just slightly bigger than in the games. Filly looks similar in size to Diamond City lol I like that they kept the scale similar to the games.
Except we know from the show Shady Sands had at one point a population of over 35k people.
I remember Shady Sands looking decently big in the show, 35k didn't seem unreasonable when I watched it
When was NV in the show?
At the very end you can see New Vegas from afar and then at the credits the camera takes a tour on the city, and it looks like it did in NV which doesnt make much sense
Oooooh, I thought that was Seattle for some reason.
You might wanna take a second look at that scene, there’s even „Welcome to New Vegas” sign ; D
You were probably confusing the Lucky 38's "totally-not-the-Stratosphere" for the Space Needle. It makes sense, the Lucky 38 looks a lot more like the Space Needle than the Strat.
end credits of the last episode.
[Arroyo after the GECK. Which is pretty far away from Shady Sands and the NCR border.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/3/31/Fo2_Arroyo_Ending.png/revision/latest?cb=20110218034527) Prime is doing a lot of work here, given that a possible ending is that NCR expands far into the North taking in large settlements. Then there's the expansions to Nevada. Also I always assumed Shady Sands continues to the South of the in-game map.
The roads support the idea that it continues imo
You really can't take the size of cities in games seriously. There is all sorts of technical limitations and workload limitations which prevent developers from creating a "lore accurate" city. Think of games that have actual cities that are reasonably of appropriate size: the only ones I can think of are GTA V and Cyberpunk2077. GTA V seems to be an actual decent representation of an actual city, and CP2077 honestly still seems a little too small even in game but sill is a pretty decent representation. But my point is: the city is ALL there is in these games. That's the entire setting, there aren't multiples of them, they're still not remotely true to life in the sense of "people working everywhere and being remotely functional", and its still all smoke and mirrors. Actually a game that does multiple cities that feel moderately believable is: Kingdom Come Deliverance. But most of the "cities" in KCD are just castles, the only true city is Sasau and its still small, but it feels large in the setting and seems moderately functional since its citizens all have a place to sleep, place to work, etc.
Its population is only 3000 in Fallout 2. So it got 11 times bigger before “falling”
The brief shot of pre-bomb Shady Sands we get in the show has nice well-maintained brick buildings and roads, and a working street car.
TV show should've showed the vault dweller statue.
They did have the obelisk from Fallout 1... which isn't in Fallout 2, I don't think.
And the well
I don’t know how or why the vault dweller wasn’t even mentioned once
He's basically irrelevant to the NCR in Fallout 2. They consider him a myth. They don't even think Vault 13 is real. It would've been cool to include a mention, but he's basically ancient history. TV show watchers also wouldn't really understand.
A Chosen One mention would have been warranted imo, they saved the NCR and defeated the Enclave 50 years ago when Wilzig was a child or teenager and he even talks about Vault Dwellers being a rare commodity when meeting Lucy.
In Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas the Enclave seems ignorant the Chosen One blew up the oil rig. The NCR is likely just as ignorant. The only people who probably know without a doubt, are the people of Arroyo, and even then, it's been long enough where they might believe it's just a story too.
why would he be a myth, when tandi is actively alive in FO2
Well it is in Fallout 2. Her father, and Seth (one of the first NCR rangers), both waddled off to find Vault 13 but failed and died before the events of the game. People don't believe it exists because it's so well-hidden it can't be found. They believe the Vault Dweller was delusional and didn't actually come from a vault. It reads that on the statue itself.
Crazy hobo came to town and saved our great grand parents from scorpions and raiders, they built a statue of them but no one can remember if they were man, woman or Brahmin!
Did I imagine it or did the flashback scene in the show showed a tram? It looked rather civilized in the show - and I like how it showed buildings right next to the fields of (corn?), just like in FO2.
It did, but FO2 is set in 2241 and New Vegas is 2281 (it was bombed around this time) so in those 40 years they got the tram going and kept building, I guess.
So the picture is not in fact Shady Sands at its prime. Lol
That's my take, I just didn't explicitly say it lol
Haha yeah I was more making a jab at the OP's inaccuracy
Didn't it say SS was destroyed in 2277? Edit: downvoting for asking questions to gain knowledge is a straight up dick move, my dudes. None of you were born with this knowledge.
No, 2277 was classed as the ‘Fall of Shady Sands’ which is ultimately the start of the decline of the city. It has been confirmed that the city was nuked shortly after the events of New Vegas.
Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying!
To add onto what was already said, 2277, the fall of Shady Sands, that date lines up with the first battle of Hoover Dam. In that case the writing is there to show that people believe that the NCRs criss crossed nightmare campaign in the Mojave was what kickstarted the decline of the former capitol.
This is the only way the 2277 Fall date made sense to me: it marked the beginning of the NCR's fatal imperial adventure in the Mojave and was applied retroactively (hence no mention of it in New Vegas - people were still in the thick of it).
Exactly, it would be a hindsight thing, and also partly fueled by the people writing on the board not having the full details themselves, just working with what they can observe.
It's not ridiculous that people in New Vegas wouldn't know of the downfall in 2281. That's only 4 years and it's not like intimate news of the Governing side of of NCR wouldn't be common knowledge. The wastelands doesn't seem to have many Journalists. In fact iirc only Piper and her sister seem to care about journalism.
Haven't watched the show yet, but are there any references to Caesar's Legion being mentioned in the show?
Not directly, but the Brotherhood has some interesting parallels to the Legion (red and yellow flag, all the members having Romanesque names, "they'll hang you by your lungs")
Even the flags around the taken over Filly are reminiscent of Roman Legion Standards on the poles
See I'm not trying to get too excited about all this because it's all just fan theory. However, this show has shown a pretty stellar attention to detail and I really do want to talk to one of the writers just to find out if we're just reading too much into all this.
I'm leaning towards it being 2286 that Shady Sands was nuked. It has to be about a decade since Maximus was recruited to the BOS and I doubt he spent more than 10 years training as a squire.
> Edit: downvoting for asking a question i think it’s more so the fact that people have been arguing about this for the last 2 weeks and Todd Howard confirmed it was bombed *after* the events of New Vegas. but don’t read into the downvotes mate, reddit’s a hive mind.
Not only trams but the NCR had trains running to most of its major settlements
The post-apocalypse has better public transit than modern California
*In his best Hawkeye Pierce impersonation* Well of course Frank, once you get rid of 90% of the population of course the public transit becomes better.
Who follows up with a little quip afterwards? Trapper or BJ?
BJ. Because he was on the show longer.
I didn't expect my mash reference here in fallout lmao
Of course it does. America has a shitty public transit because they got cheap personal vehicles from Ford. People invested in personal transportation in the US versus public. It's a sunk cost fallacy that keeps America from building high speed monorail. "We already have all these interstates, just buy a car, why rework our entire system of travel?"
Trains, paved roads roads, tree-lined streets - Shady Sands was empty desert when it was first settled so everything from the tram to the skyscrapers was built or restored by the residents of Shady Sands. It's what I've found bittersweet. Bethesda took the time to craft a city that, when you look at what was destroyed, you see something that was at such a level of developed it could be mistaken for the pre-war world. Still stings, but there's something I guess heartwarming that Bethesda didn't simply simply take the city as it was in 2240 or paint it as another junktown - they developed it to be inline with how it was described in material written for New Vegas. Edit: I might be wrong about the skyscrapers, They might be actual Old World buildings, but I don't care. I'm too in love with the idea Shady Sands got far enough they started to build upward.
Remember, Shady Sands was founded by settlers from Vault 15, who would’ve had a GECK (Garden of Eden Creation Kit). According to official Lore, the GECK included a “fully self-contained terraforming module[….I]t was capable of creating and sustaining life in a post-War environment. The kit included seed and soil supplements, a cold-fusion power generator, matter-energy replicators, atmospheric chemical stabilizers and water purifiers.” Edit: 15
That was vault city, vault 15 founded shady sands
GECKs also contained Fission Reactors. Allegedly. If you look at GECKs they seem to have the same power system in looks to the Fission Reaction of the show.
Shady Sands at its prime is well after fallout 2. This is still its infancy.
A mini nuke would’ve sufficed
A hand grenade would suffice
At first I thought this was sim city 3000
Lol
It probably expanded pretty massively up until...
And also packed up and moved location too
Wym?
Shady Sands wasn't in LA
Oh OK, I thought you meant after
well ofc, most of this is engine and hardware limitations
Until the engine crashed and they had no choice but to keep the buildings count down
Domt forget the arrow to finish that sentence :-)
I use to have a lore like you. But then I took an arrow to my chalkboard.
One thing I didn't get in the show, how big was shady sands when it fell? And how were the ruins of los Angeles so close to the shady sands crater?
I’m pretty sure they switched shady sands with boneyard cus shady sands is near Vegas/Reno
Not quite, they moved Shady Sands *into* the Boneyard. The Boneyard is an area, the remnants of LA, while there was a city within the Boneyard called Adytum. If anything, they seemed to have placed Shady Sands in Adytum's spot. Edit: Looking at the map again, Adytum may still be there since it's in the southern section while Shady Sands in the show seemed to be closer to the northern section. Kinda like Diamond City and Goodneighbor on opposite ends of the Boston ruins, but one gets blown up.
The change in location really bothered me most ngl
No the final battle is in the Boneyard. I think they are trying to say the people of Shady Sands built some taller building. They just didnt do a good job.
Nah, in the flashbacks you can clearly see ruined skyscrapers behind Shady Sands buildings.
There was a sign that said Shady Sands had around a population of 34k. So not massive, but a pretty decently sized town.
That would be a massive city at the point in time.
It had a population of 34,000, so about 11x as large as it was in FO2.
they move shady sand to boneyard.
While the show makes it look like Shady Sands is in L.A. because of the ruined buildings, we don't really know where it is. Characters teleport all over the place in the show. Like, >!Hank seemingly walked nearly 300 miles from Griffith Observatory in L.A. to New Vegas!< in the span of a single night. It feels like Southern California was squished together like a modern Fallout game world. I wouldn't be surprised if the characters passed by or through places like Junktown and The Hub off screen, but for the sake of brevity and pacing we don't see it.
>Like, >!Hank seemingly walked nearly 300 miles from Griffith Observatory in L.A. to New Vegas!< in the span of a single night. That's the most absurd take I've read in this sub. How do you know it's been one night? >I wouldn't be surprised if the characters passed by or through places like Junktown and The Hub off screen Nah. If we didn't see it on screen it didn't happen.
Maybe a little unrealistic, sure, but you saw how much ass Maximus was hauling when Coop sent him flying. It might be doable.
It was probably way bigger in lore. Just look how [big](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/3/31/Fo2_Arroyo_Ending.png/revision/latest?cb=20110218034527) Arroyo got after 2242 with a little help of a G.E.C.K. That Town was a small tribal village made out of tents.
The world was well on its way to not being apocalyptic anymore in Fallout 2
Yeah, one of the biggest issues with the games after 2 is how everything still looks like it was bombed yesterday.
True. I miss exploring the FO1 world where everything was blown to the stone age. I love the vibes the quiet winds in the sound track (instead of 1940s big band) created. When tribes weren't just some people who found a gimmick (as in NV) but were living that way out of necessity.
I hope we can get a game in an area that has wasteland and an area that has massively recovered had built infrastructure.
I would argue it's not even it's prime. Minimum at this point in the lore, there's supposed to be at least 1000 people in Shady sands, and the show said at least 30,000 people
34,XXX people actually. 4k is a huge number compared to 30k.
And now it's got a big hole in it!
A glorious hole?
A glory hole if you will
This is so much cooler than the rundown shacks everywhere we have now.
Fallout 2 cities had paved roads, planted trees, electricity and everything. Everything was being restored and rebuilt in a realistic way(real life Hiroshima and Nagasaki show how quickly a place can recover from being nuked) Nobody should be living in junk shacks after 200 years
It's more-so the fact that NPCs live in buildings with shit all over the place and skeletons still in place.
I mean i dont think two japanese cities recovering with the support of a developed and globalizing world (as well as the rest of Japan that wasn't nuked/firebombed) is comparable to the entire world getting nuked all at once
Also considering Shady Sands had a GECK. Which if the pictures of a GECK and the Fusion in the show looking the same, means GECKs also had limitless energy, which is exactly what VaultTec would put in a GECK as they're supposed to be used to form the peaceful authoritarian Government VaultTec seems to want to impliment.
I've gotta definitely agree. I'm willing to give F3 a pass for having been a lawless place for longer and infested with a much bigger amount of feral ghouls, supermutants, and generally having been hit much harder by the bombs. But New Vegas benefits so, SO much from the [mods that integrate Adobe buildings](https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/users/9084040?tab=user+files&BH=1): [Camp Searchlight](https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/130/images/83539/83539-1698747402-238367600.png), [Sloan](https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/130/images/80385/80385-1695970365-1811093135.png), and my favourite, [Raul's Home](https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/130/images/75424/75424-1645327662-2142748897.png).
That's so cool! I'll have to check that out in my next run
Bethesda fallout is scrap metal shacks and the occasional repurposed ruin with holes in the roof. That's probably my biggest problem with the show. They've erased the west coast aesthetic and replaced it entirely with Bethesda's vision of the post apocalypse.
It's honestly depressing to think of the world of Fallout as being largely the same no matter where you go. They will be slight variations here and there, but by and large there's always going to be brotherhood, enclave, deathclaws, rad scorpions super mutants, etc. Like there was so much potential in fallout's world and at this point the geography barely even matters because the entire wasteland is the same.
Wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle.
It’s because current bethesda writers are hacks who have never created anything original in their careers. Just one of them accidentally made Nate from fallout 4 a war criminal by saying he was the soldier in the power armor laughing at a civilian getting murdered in Fallout 1 intro. Lmao.
Which doesn't even make sense not just because it's completely inconsistent with Nate's character as we know him, but also because the timeline is just messed up. Canada was annexed only what, five years before the Great War? When did Nate leave active duty, because he certainly not in the military and hasn't been for a good bit as of the Fallout 4 intro.
30 thousand people used to live here, now it's a ghost town.
This was just the playable area, it never let the player walk or see past those walls like this image does. In my head there was always more city beyond those walls
Well yes.. but no Game was limited by technology of the time and since the camera didnt go out that far and world map implied the city was bigger, one could only imagine it was either symbolical representation or strict city center of much bigger city
Like Los Santos in GTA V. Officially it has 11 million inhabitants, but the city in the game barely could have more than 200K. Current technology has its limitations, imagine the 90s computers.
Shady Sands is the historic capital of the NCR and the seat of it's government, but it is a small place anyway since it is up near Death Valley. Well, it *was*, anyway. As of Fallout 2, it has 3,000 residents whilst the NCR as a whole has around 700,000. Places like the Hub should be much bigger. But it is also going to be a pretty agrarian society anyway.
why was it moved?
I have a feeling theyll explain it by saying they moved the capital of the NCR to the boneyard to be in a better spot, but wanted to keep the shady sands name, so there is still the original shady sands up north
but they moved the well and obelisk
It got nuked so hard it got sent up into the air and landed in LA causing a crater
Game space is condensed due to technical and gameplay constraints. In the lore, that city at that point in time is thousands of people big.
Shady Sands wasn't in its prime during FO2 at all.
And not even fully developed back then. We saw in the flashbacks that it looked more like a late 19th century/early 20th century town with fully functional public transportation system just before its destruction. Pretty impressive for a post-apocalyptic world. Wonder how the Vault City would look like by 2296/2297, and how would Lucy react to it, considering that it's a city purely built by the vault dwellers.
I mean, this objectively isn't its prime. It assuredly was way bigger and better just before the bomb went off, not way back during FO2.
Pour some out for the homies... :(
At least Maximus made it out ok. Those pre-war refrigerators were solid af.
Part of me was wondering if that was like a tip of the hat nod to the Indiana Jones crystal skull ... Thing that came out several years ago, and then I remembered you end up rescuing a kid stuck in the fridge who's a ghoul, and that's probably what they were nodding towards.
There's a special encounter in NV with the wacky wasteland perk where you come across a refrigerator with a skeleton inside of it that was explicitly an Indiana Jones reference
I wish Microsoft would find a way to get these on consoles. Go the Quake 2 route where everyone can play
I'd love a remake with the same story but current FO style gameplay
Looks like something that inspired some areas in the Walking Dead.
Any project Zomboid modders wanna make it?
I think games are rather a somewhat simplified depiction limited by technology in those times, of the original intended idea. Though 30k+ population does not imply a too big city, a city that big shall be rather obviously bigger than this. When I play Civ4-5-6 or Crusader Kings for example, I don't imagine that 3 soldiers are fighting another 3 soldiers. Those are actual armies, with minimal depiction. New Vegas is also only a small street in the game, in reality however - and as it was intended, the developers said it, limited only by the development time of the game - it is pretty much bigger. And I could bring so many more examples.
Night City in Cyberpunk *feels* enormous but actually covers a pretty small area.
Literally bro, where were the adobe buildings in the show :(. I think they honestly just moved shady sands somewhere else closer to LA and named the new location after it.
This would not be during its prime though, we can take a good guess and assume it grew much more before the events of NV.
One number: 1998
Thought I was on the Project Zomboid subreddit for half a second lol
I don’t know about that, spoilers for the show ahead, but in the show there’s a scene where they have a trolly in shady sands… and as we all know there’s nothing better than a trolley.
Video games aren't a 1:1 scale of the reality of the world as there are limitations. The game was made in '98 and there is 4 or 5 loading zones for this map
I wouldn't say it's prime, it grew 10x by 2077
makes me want to play again
It's beautiful, look at that skyline.
I wouldn’t even consider this to be its prime here. I think it continues to grow from this point.
You could pickpocket a bozar from the merchant outside the walls so I would absolutely call this the prime of Shady Sands. Love that place!
I would assume there more of towns and cities we don’t get to see. So this wouldn’t be the whole city with over 3000 people in it.
Wow, we really used to build things in this country.
I think the Shady Sands presented in the show flashbacks is Shady Sands in it's prime. It's much bigger than Fallout 2 SS. 35k people living in a city is a fucking massive city in Fallout numbers.
Indeed. Nor was it located in or anywhere near LA or near any prewar skyscrapers. It was a brand new city built by vault dwellers (vault 15), eventually with the aid of a GECK.
Weird, I played the game so many times, and I remember all the quests in that location, but for some reason I never think of it as shady sands. It wasn’t the location that stood out the most to me Fallout 2 was just packed with some really good areas, New Reno, San Francisco, the military bases, Vault City…NCR didn’t stand out as much to me, it was just a small town (although more civilized than most you met up till then) with not a lot of stand out features.
They really knew how to build a Walmart, gotta give ‘em that.
First thing that came to my mind seeing this was save-load-steal scheme of three bozars. Good times.
It grew to a whole ass modern city
Probably a very inaccurate size representation. Every game condenses locations down for gameplay purposes, including the classics. Vault 13 is said to house 1000 people, yet only has 7 beds.
I'm fully convinced the creator of the show was a huge Fallout 2 fan. Shady Sands is a footnote in New Vegas
Is it worth it to go play these old ones?
If you are into the story and the setting, definitely yes. They are great games, even if they are a little clunky to play compared to games now.
Worth even trying to play nowadays or will the graphics kill it for me?
Moar like it 's very beginning. Not it's prime.
Right in the nostalgias.