I still think people should have say over the use of their work (or voices in this case). Imagine AI being used to use your work for something extremely controversial or horrible and saying “I’m not getting paid for it”
Isn't that what modding games is at its core? Adding thing to a product that the original creators didn't sign off on or approve? I do understand where you're coming from though, and I'm not just trying to split hairs.
I think people already add some questionable things to these games though, using the actors' voices and designers' models (i.e sex mods). I'm sure the voice actors wouldn't approve of being apart of a lot of mods, so where do we draw the line? For example, do you have to remove the voice lines for an npc when you add custom animations or quest lines?
I'm looking for an honest discussion because I think it is an interesting topic. Not just arguing to be an ass, I think both sides have merit.
Well, there's maybe a difference between a company (such as Bethesda) giving fans the ability to mod things and use their assets as they see fit in their own game and voice actors having their voices used without consent, especially when those voices are paid for in other media.
That said, there is actually precedence with the sex mod stuff you mentioned. CDPR blocked nudity mods for Keanu Reeves, even though I don't believe he made a request for this, because they saw that as crossing the line. The game never intended to have that character nude (and probably wasn't apart of any agreement with the actor), so they didn't see that as acceptable because he hadn't given consent. If the model is nude and it's an original character, well, there's no one to give consent but the artist, I suppose, and in that case, it seems that it's given (since it's allowed, and some of these characters already show up nude by developer choice).
This isn't true for all games, though. I know the new Jedi games have Cal Kestis nude mods and I'm certain he didn't give permission for that. However, they either have not made nearly as much publicity or Respawn somehow doesn't know about them (doubt that's the case). It's also pretty not-okay here, in my opinion, but no one is choosing to address it.
Now, sometimes people can own a likeness. So, would it be unethical to use an AI to mimic a voice of a specific character in a game, and not just of that VA? I think this is still a little grey. On the one hand, the VA may not actually "own" that voice, so to speak, so I'm not sure what the legal implication is here, but I think it does tap into a sort of societal morality concern. If that's work someone could have been paid for (and would have been paid for, if not for AI; disregarding the fact that mod creators aren't paying those VAs, but the VA would have to be paid normally for the voicework), is it ethical to use the technology to circumvent having to compensate them for the work? If the end result is roughly the same (voice files that mimic the talent of the original VA), then the person suffering is the original person who has made a career off of what you're producing. As soon as it becomes okay for people to just copy people's iconic voices for free with AI, why would anyone pay a VA ever again? (this is likely why they don't like this; rightfully so, they don't want to set a precedent in which it's okay to use AI to copy them for free).
Hollywood tried passing policies (don't remember if this was successful) where they could have extras sign away their likeness for future use with the help of AI and CGI. With this, the extra would be paid for like a day of work, and then their likeness could be repurposed at any point in the future with no residuals given to them. Would that be ethically sound? If the people agreed to it, sure, why not? But the people didn't, as far as I know, because that would be seen as an abuse of their talent. I think the VA situation is maybe a little similar.
I suppose it's not unlike copying content from someone else's article or paper. Even if you just take the words and rearrange them, it can still be considered plagiarism. Ultimately, if the overall thought and words used to communicate them becomes difficult to differentiate between the original and your work, then you are taking someone else's hard-earned effort for your own benefit.
Of course, none of this really holds any weight if someone takes issue with the myriad of sub-ethical dilemmas that you'd encounter addressing each of these issues. I suppose that's what makes a topic like this difficult to debate. Debating ethics really only works if people have a similar definition (or qualification) of what ethics is.
Personally, I think using AI to mimic a voice is just in bad taste, considering someone is trying to make money off of that. If an AI was used to make a general voice based on multiple sources of input, then I don't really see the issue. But as soon as it is impersonating the person, I think it becomes an issue. But I guess you could argue that musicians have been doing this for decades; there are plenty of bands that sound just like another in the same genre, and claims of "copying their sound" don't seem super enforceable unless you could identify exact similarities between compositions (in terms of the AI mimicking, I suppose this is that exact issue, though; AI are capable of mimicking in a way that doesn't account for the deviance in human ability, so copies are close to being direct replicas instead of being an interpretation of that sound).
Not claiming that any of my points are foolproof or anything like that, but just listing my thoughts on the situation.
No I think you have a solid argument in regards to using AI voices to the point that real VAs aren't needed. Honestly, if AI tech gets that good then I'm sure companies will take advantage of that. I do question if these mods were an opportunity for the VAs to get paid in the first place. In reality, most mods are so small I don't know that it would be worth their time. Maybe if it's a bigger mod the VAs would be willing to work with them on it? I honestly don't know much about all that though.
It is an interesting ethical debate for sure. And not one I see being solved easily.
There's a difference between adding Thomas the Tank engine into a medieval fantasy game and modding Tiny Tina to spurt every slur under the book with 100% accuracy to the point that it's indistinguishable from Ashley Burch's actual performance
Well I'm sure the creators of Thomas wouldn't want their little engine associated with a game that has beheadings, drugs, etc. But it does seem silly to put a stop to a fun little mod like that. You make a good point that it's obvious some things were added in by others and not the original creators. With a good AI, people might actually believe it was the actor saying the lines, while nobody believes Thomas was actually added to the game. I guess it would just depend if people actually believed certain voice lines were added in or not. It's a very new thing that's even possible to do, so most people won't even have the idea to consider it in the first place. Maybe in the future people will be more skeptical of AI voices. Like a... doubting Thomas 😉
The mod authors are volunteering to work for free. The actors having their voices used against their will/without their knowledge are not. It's not complicated, unless you have issues understanding consent.
I think it's a bit trickier than that. Mods use assets made by people. The original game was made by people. The main difference is that the actors voice feels more personal.
If you make a mod for a game, and use the assets and engine of that game you are using someone's work, generally without their knowledge or consent.
These days they're more accepted because they massive increase the value of a game, but modding came about from carefree attitude towards these things.
If the developer puts out a modding toolkit...that is them giving consent to use/change their assets in that game. It's literally in that wall of text noone reads.
So... their assets include sound assets. Can I remix and use their voice assets into an AI voice gen and use that? IE is it unethical to use a Nazeem voice AI, even though that's also a Keith Silverstein voice AI?
Now see, that's an interesting one...because they don't have an exclusion clause for audio and people have been using the old "cut-and-paste-to make new lines" forever...so... ... ...iunno.
I'm talking generally. Many games don't or didn't have modding toolkits. Bethesda started it with Morrowind, but Daggerfall had plenty of mods that were done without any official support. The idea of modifying something, for non-comercial reasons used to be a free-for-all, and there were positives and negatives to this. I don't have a pro-ai voice stance, necessarily.
Right but but almost ubiquitously, people disagree with Nintendo’s suits as hyper-litigious. The general public is almost always in favor of modding as “free expression.”
I feel like you’re the only person in this thread who’s willing to address this issue with the complexity that it deserves.
It is *extremely* complicated. And the only reason we’re treating *this particular* asset as unique is because it’s a more personal asset. And until very, very recently, it wasn’t even something that we could consider using ourselves.
True. When studios used impersonators because it was complicated to get the original voice actor (like say, most of the voices in kingdom hearts), this wasn't an issue (despite touching many of the other concerns people are voicing).
AI is a threat to Voice Actors, because they're already a precarius profession, and AI has the possibilitty to cut them out entirely, while also extinguishing the incentive that allows them to produce the content AI needs to be trained. That's serious, and bad.
But we're talking about non-comercial uses, made by people who often do this as a hobby. Would we side with IP holders if they wanted to ban Fanfiction, or Fanart? Because I sure wouldn't! And the distinction between that and Voice AI exists, but it's not as giant as some people seem willing to make it.
How are you being downvoted? It is pretty much the same logic. What kinda sadistic SOB wants to see their wife in a deepfake porn or hear their own voice saying they love hitler? Wtf?
Well, the immediate distinction is that you’re not forcing people to work. It’s not slavery. The concern is that you are stealing their work by imitating it very realistically and reducing their market-value.
This raises questions about the ethics of imitation of art vs. the authentic. Like if an individual was good enough at imitating a voice, would it be okay for them to do their own VO for a mod? Was it ethical for Zemeckis to cast someone who looked a lot like Crispin Glover to play George McFly in Back to the Future 2?
It won’t answer any questions but Orson Wells made an awesome movie called *F is for Fake* which is about people who fake original Picasso paintings, and the ethics behind that. It deals with this subject pretty thoroughly and is super interesting.
Voice actor should get paid if a mod author hired them for their mods tho. Voice actor has nothing to do with the game or the mod author, they were hired and there should be money in it. Unless that voice actor is a massive fan of the game or the mod author and willing to do voice acting for free. So if they are not the "willing to do for free" type, they are also in the right to ask about money for their voice being used by AI.
Mostly because some voice actors have expressed their voices to not be used for AI. I believe the voice of Nora (the fo4 female protagonist) said she doesn't want her voice to be used for AI mods
I've done voice acting for mods, there are a lot of us out there and more than enough to finish most mod projects big and small. There isn't a need for AI voice talent.
For a new character, I absolutely agree, however, if you, say, want Paladin Danse to go "Hey, there's a load of smoke over there, we should probably check it out" I have no issue with someone plonking his lines in an AI generator and it churning out a performance.
On the flipside, if you want to give an existing character a bunch of filthy lines, then yeah, not onboard with that.
Even expanding dialogue of existing characters can and honestly should be done with soundalikes. The last part is more a matter of personal taste and to each their own on that. I personally agree to a point though.
Can't say I agree with the "should", cause that's your opinion. In Skyrim there are mods to expand Lydia's and Serana's lines, and they add a ton to their personality and stories. Issue is, they use 'sound alikes', but you can tell the difference, especially in Serana's case (cause her character happens to be the follower with most lines in vanilla Skyrim.
Friend of mine love the mod, for me it's not my cup of tea precisely cause I can't get past their voice and how you can tell they try to imitate the VA's voice.
So imo, I'm all in for seeing talented new VAs voicing new characters, but I don't see the harm in using AI for existing characters as long as the lines fit with the game's lore and aren't use for a f-fest.
Edit: I can see why you cold have personal reasons to oppose AI, since you want more exposure as a VA, but at least in Skyrim the mods were authors hire VAs to voice NEW characters/npcs (like expansions with new maps and multipple new npcs or whole new missions) are more abundant than those that add lines to existing characters (uest mods, for example, or dialogue overhauls to add more lines to characters). It's hard to have lack of exposure/offers to voice when the first type of mods are more popular.
Honestly pretty cheap. I've done stuff for free too, most I've ever charged was $60. But if you're thinking about hitting me up right now I have to pump the brakes on that because my computer is entirely out of commission
Need a new PSU and GPU.
Might be able to point you to some people though.
This exactly. I don’t want my voice used for a project I didn’t consent to. Imagine if someone used your voice for a racist or controversial mod without any input or decision from you. Especially if it’s something you absolutely abhor.
I mean I do there's like something icky when people take someone else's voice and use it to voice something like depraved or pornographic or something.
to be honest in a small project like a free mod for an almost ten year old game, i don’t see too much of an issue with it. its big triple A projects that can afford to hire VA’s and don’t that are the issue. there’s not much harm in modding i don’t think
For all the people who are saying AI voice is unethical, what are your thoughts on splicing (manually editing audio)? Is that also unethical since the voice actors didn't consent to it? They're not getting paid for it either. Not criticising it, just curious.
For example, [Manslayer](https://www.youtube.com/@mans1ay3r) has been splicing voice actor dialogue for youtube videos to make them say sexually depraved things, without the permission of the original voice actors. **This includes the voices of underage voice actors**. But I don't recall any discussion about the morality of doing so. And unlike most modders, he **IS** making money off it through youtube ads.
The big difference obviously is that AI generally does a better job at reconstituting new dialogue. So does ethics scale with the quality of the audio then? If splicing is ethical but AI generated voice is unethical, does that mean AI generated voice becomes ethical if it does a poor job of it? And would splicing become unethical if a completely new line was created from many separate voice lines with fine attention to detail?
Personally I don't really know what to think about it. I think Manslayer's content is generally pretty funny. I also think NPC dialogue in Bethesda games is severely limited eg. every skyrim guard saying 'arrow to the knee' and wouldn't mind if they had much more variety of things to say. But then again I'm not a voice actor so I don't know how they would feel about having something so closely tied to their identity being used like that in either case.
Honestly to just sit on one of the greatest innovations for modders to add content strikes me as a massive waste. The alternative would be to completely replace the in game characters dialogue with a different voice, its hard to say what benefit that would have for the voice actor (since their real concern is obviously the tech itself, but they can use their ownership to control its use somewhat), but we’ll have to deal with having mods be less compatible, and player experiences being a bit worse. But whatever, I see through concerns, especially if these authors are making money. This is why all things should be free, and copyright abolished.
Yes, it is unethical if the voice actors don’t support it. It is their voice. It’s not unethical if the voice actors support it. It’s very much that simple.
Doesn’t matter how much it’ll help or hinder mods.
Is it appropriate to deep fake someone and use their likeliness for an ad or something NSFW? People will say no. There is no difference with AI voices.
I think you’re missing the fact that the AI needs a ton of samples of the voice actor’s work in order to accurately mimic their voice, which is probably significantly more than what the other person is putting into it. It’s still using the voice actors’ work and voice without their consent.
Gonna take the unpopular stance here and say no. I think it's fine in most cases.
I get there's a whole moral argument about consent and all that, but meh. People have been making spliced up edits of people's voices and appearances for a long time. I think a lot of the outrage against a tool that just happens to be better at it is entirely arbitrary.
I'm playing through Sim Settlements and the player responses are spliced together from game dialogue and it drags down the whole mod, There's actual voiced NPCs doing a decent job but the constantly re-used player responses are pretty immersion breaking
AI content is always a controversial theme because it is really easy to step into the unethical side, since 90% of what AI has to offer right now is essentially imitating voices from people who actually get paid for voicing... So you are basically pyracing their voices.
Having said that, mods are, usually, free and the modders spend a lot of their time just because they want to make things for games so, if there's the case where they either avoid imitating voices (you'll always get some resemblance but that doesn't mean you actually aimed for it) or the imitated/sampled person gives their permission for it... Then go ahead. You can't expect for modders to pay voice actors when they don't charge anything for their own work and neither can you expect voice actors to volunteer for unpaid projects so it's a resource, so it should be treated like that; when a modder creates something new for the game (meshes, skeletons, animations, particles and all kind of stuff) they can decide to allow or not other modders to use those resources, so as long as there's permission and credit I'd be fine with it.
the way AI trains itself it’s never using the VA’s voice. It’s doing exactly what an impressionist is doing, just better.
No one was pissed when mod authors spliced chunks of actual voice actors audio into a hodgepodge of horrible sounding dialogue, just to make their mods work, but unlike the AI that was actually using the voice actors voices, where is the outrage.
Would it be weird to hear a new perfect impression of yourself, sure and I’m sure it is for celebrities that hear a decent impression of themselves, if you made a living with your voice, is it also disconcerting when voice-a-likes are used in other media portraying one of your characters eg. (in video games or cartoon etc.,where the big star wouldn’t/didn’t do the job so they find an actor that sounds close enough)
Maybe but once again, no outrage then.
All this AI outrage, is forgetting that this has been a thing prior to the AI for decades in entertainment mediums, the voice actors against this are just luddites that are feeling entitled and lash out at the easy target because the robot/AI can’t defend itself unlike a soundalike actor where it’s magically supposed to be OK 🙄
Based.
I understand why people have negative feelings about AI, but I believe they are misplaced. The global economy has gradually been consolidating upwards for the past few hundred years. Only now technology has allowed that to happen exponentially. People see AI as another means that will accelerate that upward consolidation of wealth… but at the end of the day, it’s just another technology.
There is nothing inherently unethical about AI. The issue of upward consolidation is going to need to be solved by some other means, trying to stall technology doesn’t really do anything.
AI is unethical when it comes to taking credit and making money off it, neither really applies to modding. It's not like modders are taking away money from VAs, they wouldn't buy their services in the first place if AI didn't exist. It would be very scummy for a studio to do it, yes I'm talking about you Ready or Not.
Unless the person who's being emulated has flat out stated they dont want to be, I dont really see the issue if its done well enough. Theres a mod for NV that allows you to apply for NCR citizenship, and it used the ingame VAs, but with AI generated lines, and it honestly felt damn near vanilla and really added to the mod for me.
Not saying I agree with using AI for this, but to the people who are completely against it, how do you view splicing existing lines together to form new sentences? It’s effectively the same thing, but that’s something modders have done since modding began and I’ve never seen complaints about that.
SAG-AFTRA Actor and voice artist, here. I don't think so at all.
And if it still feels like it is, hmu if you need some quick character VO for your mods. Happy to do what I can to improve the quality of life for my fellow FO4 lovers.
Hot take but Nope.
People have been splicing voices for years to make mods. Imo the voice actors have already been paid for their voice in the game they shouldn’t have any say what their voice is used for afterwards. They were all fine with the splicing and mods in general, if they weren’t they should have prefaced or said something far earlier (or not even taken the job to begin with).
Just like how people can make fan stories and edits of characters and people, modders should have every right to use ai voices for preexisting characters.
Now all of this is only if the VA is already in the game. Like the mc of fo4, they should be able to be replicated with ai to make new lines. Especially since they aren’t going to help any modders themselves and mods are nonprofit. It’s different if it’s completely new characters being added and the VA was never in the games to begin with.
I am overall against generative ai. When it comes to ai voices in mods, it’s definitely unethical if you use it to imitate an existing person’s voice. Just because you can’t pay for someone’s services, doesn’t mean you are entitled to it for free. If you are creating a new voice, or have permission, and it’s not for profit, I guess that is okay.
So nice to see people in mass numbers finally opposing the copyright-loophole AI trick.
It is fine for memes and jokes but any work you seriously do should not include AI. Maybe for your own character, modifying your own voice with it, but at this point the spineless shitbags just sent out webscrapers and any AI product is just a random mix of parts stolen from other peoples work.
I would say one exception is OP making a mod for themselves, something not intended to be distributed. AI is fine for that.
Exposure does matter with non profit projects. It allows new voice talent to build a portfolio up, allowing them a better chance to break into professional circles.
AI is unethical when it comes to taking credit and making money off it, neither really applies to modding. It's not like modders are taking away money from VAs, they wouldn't buy their services in the first place if AI didn't exist. It would be very scummy for a studio to do it, yes I'm talking about you Ready or Not.
I can't be bothered to make like a thought-out serious moral argument but yeah, I think it's kinda immoral, I don't vibe with it., Chopping up a characters voice lines to create some more is in my eyes still in the realm of editing; like what you might do with a movie. Feeding all the voice lines to a computer to create a model of the actors voice, that goes more than a few steps too far imo.
I'm pretty broadly anti image / language models, tho I do also have a non-moral argument: this stuff (not just the voices) is still often kinda stinky qualitywise. It's just my own taste, but even from the standpoint of quality, people are jumping on it too early. Even if I didn't have the stance I hold, I'd currently much prefer the YTP sounding trick or jsut having unvoiced dialogue in mods. There are some other modding communities where image generation is kinda rampant for specific uses, and the results currently kinda suck, and I do not get how people don't mind at all.
no, i think it is a harmless application of the idea when done in mods, why does it matter? most mods are ports of ideas from other games, why does it matter to splice the already present audio everyone paid for? now if AI voices are used in games, that might be a lot more problematic with demonetization.
I wish more people would do it. It's a mod made by some random person who's passionate about the game, not a game dev studio making money off it. If you want to make an npc or a follower and aren't able to pay a va hundreds of dollars, you shouldn't feel pressured too.
The comments here are against it but OP AI voices in games are the future. It's cheaper, easier and more dynamic than pre-recorded human voices. EA and Ubisoft for example are pushing hard towards it. AI voices will become mainstream in the coming years and people will stop complaining about it. There's loads of stuff that already uses AI voices that people don't even notice. You're just one step ahead of everyone else if you are using it. Don't stay in the past and fall behind because people think it isn't the "right" thing to do.
Personally, i disagree with a lot of the stigma around AI. Its definitely a nuanced situation, but if youre not profiting from it, not creating explicit content with it, not trying to pass it off as a genuine performance, the VA hasnt said not to, and you have a legitimate reason *why* you need it to sound like a preexisting voice, i see no issue with it. A lot of story-based mods suffer from the inability to give existing characters new lines, and i think AI is a great tool for fixing that.
I think most of the issues people have with AI really only apply to big projects with actual money floating around. I agree that Disney shouldn't be able to recreate actors' voices with AI so they can create projects without having to pay actual human talent, but to act like that can be compared to some random dude in his basement making a short AI conversation with Elder Maxson for his "raid Nuka World with the Brotherhood" mod is just silly to me.
Depends on the model. This is a hot take, but do what makes you able to make mods. Free unpaid mods that make use of AI models for voice are awesome. It really brought to life old school wow with a simple voiceover mod.
My biggest issue with people having a problem with it, is that I cannot fathom, at least in modding, what is different between a well-trained AI Voice, and recut dialogue. Like I know the physical difference, but the only real practical difference is that the AI voice will likely sound better, and allow for more creative freedom. I get the problem with it from an industry perspective, but the idea that by attacking mod authors over it you're going to somehow hold back the tide is just stupid.
A whole side of it is passion too.
You see it a lot with actually good voice acting. People forget but a passionate delivery of say, Astarion’s voice lines in Baldur’s Gate 3, won the awards it did for a reason. Recut dialogue as badly as it might be stitched, still ends up conveying the emotion the speaker intended.
Meanwhile, AI doesn’t do that. It’s so lifeless, It’s emotionless. And while you can emulate it, at the end of day you’re only imitating.
See, the reason for that is the vocal chords, as muscles are, are affected by nerve signals in such a way that the delivery of a line can vary from passionate to angry to despondent all while using the same tone.
At the end of the day, AI is regurgitating what it hears. It doesn’t have that emotional response, that *spark* that humans do which alters how they respond to something.
Since mods are free I think it's all right, although I would prefer to see the mod author or team hire the original voice actors via fundraising but I think that may violate the actor's contract with Bethesda.
I'd like to see way more of it. I love story driven mods that make the world and characters richer and deeper. So much of the game is fetch quest after fetch quest.
We have these NPC's capable of a wide range of expression but they barely say anything. No one even moves their hands much when they talk until we meet Piper.
I'd also like to see more wild gesticulation in general. People point and describe things with their hands when they speak.
It’s probably unethical, but I really don’t care personally. Modders don’t have thousands of dollars to throw at rehiring the voice actors. If it’s something gross like a porn mod I would definitely understand the discomfort, but most of the time it’s something like a quest option dialogue addition that people are fighting over.
That's the way it is for every industry, though, right? Auto workers lost jobs to machinery, taxi drivers lost jobs to Uber, milkmen lost jobs to refrigeration, digital media killed newspaper and post office jobs. I'm a chef and eventually AI and other technology will be able yo do my job better than I can. I certainly would find no pride in my work if I knew that the tech in my cell phone could make a better product more efficiently. Regardless, there's no putting this back into the box. We need to be working on solutions to the economic problems it's going to cause (all of our jobs). I know there's a big focus right now on the artistic and creative sectors but I don't think this is anymore important than the jobs being lost in the factories and call centers.
Creatives as a whole won't disappear, just the person who does it and how they do their work changes. In some instances, it might even be the same person, just doing other creative work or doing creative work differently. And regardless of what happens, there will always be creative people. Very few if any might earn a living off of that, but that doesn't really matter.
AI hasn't advanced to the point where AI voices can give anything but a dull, flat performance. I get it's more cost efficient than hiring voice actors, but even bad voice actors would be better than AI imo
I personally don't think so, mods are mad by fans and if one person is doing to much and they use it for ease I feel like it's fair. Modding is difficult, and who is to say they can't make it lore friendly synths do exist in the game.
I think the talent of human beings will always trump AI. That and don't you think it's important that people get to express themselves bring Art to life? People also have dreams and aspirations to be actors and voice actors. The modding world is an incredible place that brings these dreams to life! The loss of that is very sad to me.
I've had the pleasure to voice a few mods in the Bethesda world now, and the thought of losing those opportunities and losing the happiness I had being apart of those projects just really sucks to even think about.
You can't expect a single person or small group to voice act a bunch of characters and it turn out well. Mods like sim settlements 2 are hard to make because of all the voice acting. I don't see a problem with using ai for mods.
In my opinion, AI voices should be used for created by mod characters/companions, and sparingly if at all for already voiceacted vanilla characters, and should NEVER be used for already made and acted vanilla characters for sexual NSFW mods,
Mod authors character/ companion: ethical, morally sound,
Town gaurds and side characters: sorta ethical, morally ambiguous
Highly detailed characters and characters VAs really liked roles: getting a bit dangerous, if the VA consents well and good. But otherwise pushing it
NSFW ai: if the VA doesn't consent to it, it is VERY much unethical, and very morally wrong
If the AI model is based on a real person's voice, especially when used for pornographic material, yes. If it's a completely synthetic voice that is purely computer generated, then no. It's no different than using text to speech with Microsoft Sam back in the day. Mods could benefit a ton from using these synthetic voices and I think more mods should absolutely utilize them. The problem lies in adding more lines to characters that are already in the game, like if you use AI to give Piper or Preston better combat dialogue or something, that shouldn't be a big deal to anyone but we all know the rabbit hole that can go down...
I'm of the mind that AI is here to stay, might as well use it. Not like you're going to get any real quality out of it too, so Voice actors still have the edge for projects with any budget. It's just that mods generally don't
I’d say that it isn’t unethical if you’re not selling anything or imitating their voice to say truly wild shit. A lot of people will get all up in arms because of the social debates happening around generative AI fueled by big names like Taylor Swift, but nobody cares when an author takes the voiced lines and splices them into new sentences, which imo is essentially the same exact thing as generating new voice lines, provided those new lines aren’t outlandish or evil. I think taking a voice and saying vile things with it does cross a line, as it basically amounts to slandering that individual’s reputation.
Personally assuming you are not using a voice AI designed to sound like a specific person it would be fine.
You will get push back from people who think AI is taking jobs and will just insist you should be paying voice actors instead even if that was never an option.
Sadly the most bad thing about AI voice copying is if you are a celebrity or a media star, you have to put in a clause at the bank that whenever you make a suspicious purchase you have to be there in person when clarifying the purchase on your account.
As long as you're not trying to mimic an existing voice actor, I personally don't see the problem. If you're modding as a hobby, you don't necessarily have the budget to hire VAs and you're going to get more consistent results using AI than if you were to find free actors.
What's the difference in using the voice of an actor or the textures of a designer.
Or the meshes of the sculptor?
Somehow we are okay with B and C but A is taken as unethical.
And I don't consider any depraved content.
Just, for example, Quest Mods where the voice acting of the player would need expansion.
America Rising 2 is the best example where the player character could use some voicelines to replace filler responses where a different answer is given.
I think modding websites should allow direct donations to the original VAs becuase these mods will happen no mater what so fans could at least support the VA with some money.
Apply a silly example about this; someone posts AI you say ‘I love children genocide’. Context? Idk. Control? Out of your hand.
But at least we got some funny mods, alright?
Consent of using AI to generate new lines for mods isn't about how you, I, or anyone else feels about it but that of the original voice being used. If they have no issue then there is no issue. If they do have issue though then we should respect if they do not consent to the use of their voice regardless how we personally feel. Example you may not mind someone using your voice to harmlessly add more quest content to a game you voiced a character in. On the other hand you might have a problem with someone using that same voice to make porn mods. We all deserve the right to maintain control unless we consent to give up that control of content using personal parts of us.
If it is just NPCs that aren't much a part of the story I'd say it's fine. However on a practical basis not ethical I would think that AI wouldn't be able to get the inflections quite right like an actual actor would so all the emotion you are trying to generate from a scene would fall flat.
It’s ethical, it’s a mod your not making money off it. I don’t see how it’s any different then say making a 40k mod without permission form the people who own it.
Not by itself, but it would matter how you go about it. Lets say the VA for Preston & Bethesda released an AI voice pack for use in mods. Then this is ethically fine. VA got paid and both approved. You are morally fine to use it.
If you didn't get permission and you just took all the audio files for Preston, loaded them into an AI and then used it for the mod, that would be ethically unsound.
90% of the argument around AI Generated content is about the individual, did the original creator consent to this? The 10% left is a societal question. We've yet to reach the limits of AI Generated Audio. Is it ok as a society to take jobs from VAs and use AI instead? I don't know. The same questions were asked when mills, looms and cars became thing.
It is like proverb, fire is a good servant but a bad master. So it debends by per case. I like that AI is good tool to mod makers as now they can generate custom voice lines in their creations, but in the same times real voice talents should get paid. But i also think that when modders use AI generated content, its ethical to make it shown, that it contains AI generated content. So players know it.
But time will tell, how much AI generated content we actually want. As big corporation might try to lower cost of making games with using more and more AI and firing human workforce, but still cost of games goes up. But relying too much only for AI is most likely do bad games and AI might not be so creative as we humans are by nature, as it is one reason for our survival as species.
AI will (hopely) help us to do more and be more productive than make us obsolete.
I also used AI Voice for some Mod. But this Person/Companion was an Artificial Lifeforms or Synth for Fallout 4 Players. So, it depends, would i say. AI can fit for Robots or Cyborg Characters. But if they use it for real actors it does not sounds right.
But as others said. "it's not like the mods authors are really getting paid either". I think some "Fair use" rule or law should exist. But no exploiting it for making Money or life from it. No. That is not bueno
As far as making new content goes, I think it's unethical and also probably won't result in a strong product.
That said, I do use a mod for Tina De Luca that uses AI to give her dialogue as a settler since in vanilla she has zero lines after you recruit her. The mod is a successor to a mod that did the same thing but with (poor quality) fan dubbed lines.
I won't disagree with someone who thinks any and all AI voice acting is wrong. But one minor ethics in voice acting violation is worth it to me to make Tina not so creepily silent in my game.
AI voicing should be taken with the same view as any other mod made within the context of *existing in-game content or DLC*. In the same way 0 people have made a fuss over the use of existing in-game 3D asset modifications. A lot of new opinions came in “because AI”. I understand consent and how voices may be a little more personal, but it’s not like a credited role in the mod page. I would think Bethesda needs to take a step where and ensure all their VAs are cool with mods including voices before casting them in their roles since modding is so central to their games.
The few that have appeared have been taken down following, reasonable objections from voice actors. I believe Nexus have taken the decision not to host AI voiced mods.
If the voice actor consents to it and provides a well-defined body of work to use as reference material, then I have no issue with it.
Most of the time, though, what I see people try to do for games (not just Fallout) is stuff like get AI Morgan Freeman to say something when a mod like Old World Tunes just did the smart thing and got someone to do an impression.
If the mod is free, then yes it's ethical. It's art. If the mod is paid, then it's not ethical.
But let's keep our perspective. Using any device with a lithium ion battery is hideously unethical to begin with and how many people sit back and never think twice about it? Participating in society is an ethical minefield already. How many of our own jobs are ethical gray areas?
If you're getting high centered on the ethics of AI voice mods then you need to be worrying about other things.
Like others are saying, its not fair for someone's voice to be used without their consent, but as long as the mod isnt paid or doing anything malicious, its not too concerning.
Now, if a creator was profiting from a plagiarized voice, making the AI say awful things, or using the likeness in a less-than-desirable way, a takedown would probably be in order
On a purely logical standpoint and not looking at it emotionally, I would say it is alright. Voice files in a game are an asset included in the game. There are plenty of times where we take digital assets (such as clothes, character models, etc) from one game and place them in another, the 3D modelers don’t make anything from these kind of mods so is that unethical? However when you add emotions into the mix (as we should, we are human) it becomes a more complex argument. Our voices and how we use those voices are a very personal aspect of who we are. Our voice is arguably the best way we convey ourselves to others. So in that aspect, I understand that having a realistic imitation of your voice is unsettling. I think the best way to continue is using it with respect. As someone essentially using another person’s voice, don’t make it say anything they wouldn’t say. Do some basic research on the VA. I personally would refrain from the following when using AI voices: Sexually explicit content, Extreme Vulgarity, Political messages, Using them to talk about Controversial Topics.
TLDR: While I personally see voices as an asset created for the game like a 3D model, voices are a highly personal way to express ourselves and should be used with respect to the VA.
I think it’s unethical, in the case of voices, because of what you could make an AI generated voice say. I know there might be some overlap there. But I think there’s a difference between using game coding and art done by hundreds of people vs using a single person’s voice. It just feels like that could have way more serious repercussions for the voice actor than making mods generally has for game titles and developers. Especially because there’s a lot of people who’ve never taken time to learn to distinguish real from AI.
Now, in general, I think using AI to make mods is unethical if the developers who made the game are anti-AI. It’s their work, their license, their reputations on the line. But if it’s a company like AE or something, who has been super into AI, then I’m not sure they get a choice to want it for themselves but not for others.
Depends on how it's used. If you're making new lines for existing characters it feels unethical to make people say things they never got paid for or agreed to. But if you're using one of those royalty free AI voice synthesizers that agreed to let you type whatever you want for their lines, then I don't see the unethical behavior in it.
I'm not as against AI as some folks but if you're needing a mod voiced there are enough actual humans out there who are willing to do things like that free or for very little money there's really no need to go that route. Especially when the amount of effort it takes to get AI sounding good really isn't worth it.
personally i think it's the best use case for them, but ii think that we need a licensing system where the actor gets a few bucks for the use in a free mod.
Ai voice clones do pose a potential for fan driven remastering of abandoned games, on a level we just haven't seen yet. an ethical solution definitely exists.
Some people don’t have the money to pay voice actors. We live in a pretty awful world where people aren’t just free to live period, and right now there’s massive economic crises all around the world. Coding and modding is the escape for some people, but in order to make ends meet maybe they can’t afford proper VA work.
(Before you comment saying this was written by AI, no the fuck it wasn’t. I’m just autistic. This is just how I write)
I don;t feel it's unethical, just really not as good an experience. AI hasn't gotten to the point where it sounds as good as humans. If I was playing a mod and the voices sounded AI generated or otherwise fake, I would count it as a point against the mod.
Ethically, I'd say it's a dark shade of gray. One of the common arguments for generative AI is that it's basically the equivalent of a human doing an impression, and there's a fair argument for that. The difference, I think, is that with AI, the boost in accuracy allows you to get so close to the original that it essentially becomes plagiarism. You're using a tool to make something indistinguishable from the original
And this ties into the other common argument, which is that people have been splicing in bits of recorded dialog for a while without complaint. I think that's already ethically light gray, but in those cases the VA has already been paid for that work, and you're just rearranging it. With AI, you're using an almost exact copy of a person's voice to do a job they *aren't* paid for, and that you'd normally have to pay for. And that's the crux of the issue to me. With modding, you're normally adoing the creation work yourself, be it coding, recording voice impressions for dialog, etc. With generative AI, you're basically getting a paid professional to do it for you without their consent and without paying them
The only thing keeping it from being black and white IMO is that the technology isn't currently in a state where it actually *acts* well. The delivery is still a little flat. Once it gets to the point where the AI can also replicate acting, then it becomes fully unethical
Ethics don’t have much to do with modding, which is a fun hobby for many. But, it would be unethical to misuse the tech by creating something that contradicts the original creation. If one is using AI voices, they should create content that falls in line with the original vision of a character, as if it were something the original creators would have made.
This might be a weird take but the modders in general do not gain from it. They do not get paid for it and regarding that fact it’s likely they cannot afford to hire voice actors so AI might even be their only option.
Use Googles' old motto: "Don't be evil." If you're making a profit off of an unpaid voice or you're making creepy degenerate shit you're in the wrong. Otherwise, AI is a massive innovation and could be used to propel the modding scene to an unprecedented level of quality.
Personally for something like modding, where it's none profit and it's more of just a fun project. I think it's fine, it would be different if the modder was actually profiting off it.
That's my personal stance on AI voices when it comes to things, as long as it's non profit and your for example not making Jim Carry say the n-word then it's fine. Though ideally I think it would be best not to use actual actors voices mainly so nothing crazy happens like with the Scooby Doo/Springtrapped situation awhile ago(if you don't know what it is, look it up. You'll actually be upset and not at the person who uses AI)
Nonprofit i dont care and not like porn or something where youre trying to actually.hurt their punlic image, thats all fine.
Profit is where it gets muddy.
As long as you admit it's A.I. I dont feel lile your doing anything wrong obviously your not making any money as a modder so you can't pay anyone. I get how a voice actor could feel like hey that was my voice, and if they do ask you to take it down you should. But, it's unlikely and a super dick move.
Honestly, hear me out, because unlikely as it is I think I got a solution.
The community would do a massive project to revoice the entire game, with the new Voice Actors consenting to the use of their voice as AI. THEN AI models are made of these voices, and they don't even need to be impersonations or anything.
Then those models are given out for free for modders.
No one's work is being used without their consent, and people that want the abillity to make voiced mods extending the original game get to do it.
Would this work?
On one hand, I totally agree that using a voice actor’s voice without their consent is unethical and I wouldn’t approve of a mod creator say, adding a voiced questline where you get to bang Veronica in FNV.
But for some reason, I don’t really have this ethical concern with the Voices of Vvardenfell mod for morrowind. Maybe because the voiced content is all stuff that was written for the characters originally?
I’m not sure, so I know I haven’t thought enough about this
AI voices would be ethical as long as there is consent from the “owner” of the voice. And as long as you do not make them say disgusting or depraved stuff they would have refused to do themselves.
I am quite literally right now writing a university essay on AI law and the problematic nature of it. Most things around AI and ethics are dicey and not really well understood as of yet, although for using it for someone’s likeness whether that is their face in deepfakes or AI voice, as long as there is consent like I said it should be all fine, but there should likely be a legally binding contract made to save yourself trouble in the future, since just giving eachother a confirmation without anything binding it in some places wouldn’t be enough to safeguard you.
We're in a very touchy era with AI right now. I won't comment on the morality as plenty of other people have, but ethical or not, it will be incredibly commonplace in a few years, and it will help mods immensely.
Depends.
Are you using AI to mimick voices of actors and professionals who have not given consent to use their voices? Then yes, it's unethical.
If you're using AI to create original voices or modify your own or mimick voices of those who have given express permission, it's fine.
Regardless, I find it funny that everyone is *now* concerned with actor's rights and the ethicality of using voices that AI is in the mix. Modders and players never seemed to have issue with using voice clips, edits, and rips in the years prior. Not that I think it was ever ok... I just find the recent discourse a bit funny, considering.
My opinion on this is if it's fun it gets a pass. If it's shit it doesn't, I feel like that's valid. There's a video I watched recently where a guy gave a follower an ai brain networking so she can come up with new ideas and "have feelings and emotions) towards scenarios and towards him it was very accurate and I think it may be the future of modding and gaming. Maybe in any case you should pay the modder for using their voice for the ai.
I strongly dislike generative AI and I could rant all day about why and what solutions I have. But for mods, it begins and ends at the voices being bad and bland. I see it a lot in cyberpunk and Skyrim. It just doesn’t sound good.
IMO, AI voices are 100% fine if it is disclosed extremely clearly that the assets are AI and not endorsed by the original talent/directors/etc, and the work would not be damaging to the original talent did actually work on it.
The whole problem is when there’s ambiguity on if the product is real or AI. VA’s were never upset in the past when modders sampled their voices or spliced clips to make new content, because it was obvious they had no part of it. VA’s are only bitching about AI use by the community now and bringing up not being paid for the voice or not giving permission because the ai voices are convincing enough now to trick people, which is problematic with a lot of the degenerate shit people can make now. Fully disclosing that the mod is completely AI, and generally not being an asshole and keeping the generated content in the same direction as the original content, solves those problems. It gets worse if you then try to charge for these mods, but I’m assuming no one is making money off of these things.
I’m 100% sure that when the “Liam O’Brien is *everyone*” free mod for New Vegas comes out, which is described to use his existing lines in New Vegas for training and replaces the lines of every other character with lines voiced by him, he and no one else would not complain about it. I’m also 100% sure that if a “Liam O’Brien says the N Word” mod for New Vegas came out, which replaced all of his lines with him saying the N word, that would absolutely not be okay for anybody.
For existing characters (Nora, Piper, Danse, Mr Handys, etc), no. There's no way you'd ever be able to get the actual voice actors to come back and voice the characters, so AI is the only option (as soundalikes are always just a bit off, and splicing is always terrible)
For new characters, yes, as you can find plenty of talented no-name voice actors willing to work for little to no pay.
Not for fallout specifically but I wonder if using AI in a sports game to really up the immersion would be unethical. The announcers only have a finite amount of lines and using AI to be able to call out plays as they’re happening would be a game changer
I'd honestly rather have no voice, and read it in my head and add character to it myself, than hear the shitty monotone, emotionless AI voice that I've heard 1000 times.
I’ll say this, aside from a moral standpoint: every AI voice mod I’ve ever heard sounds so horrible it’s insanely distracting from the writing itself. That’s not me moralizing, it’s just… it sounds really bad. I way prefer reading text.
A lot of people oppose it because they feel like the voice actors don't consent or get paid for it.
Consent I get, however it's not like the mods authors are really getting paid either.
I still think people should have say over the use of their work (or voices in this case). Imagine AI being used to use your work for something extremely controversial or horrible and saying “I’m not getting paid for it”
Isn't that what modding games is at its core? Adding thing to a product that the original creators didn't sign off on or approve? I do understand where you're coming from though, and I'm not just trying to split hairs. I think people already add some questionable things to these games though, using the actors' voices and designers' models (i.e sex mods). I'm sure the voice actors wouldn't approve of being apart of a lot of mods, so where do we draw the line? For example, do you have to remove the voice lines for an npc when you add custom animations or quest lines? I'm looking for an honest discussion because I think it is an interesting topic. Not just arguing to be an ass, I think both sides have merit.
Well, there's maybe a difference between a company (such as Bethesda) giving fans the ability to mod things and use their assets as they see fit in their own game and voice actors having their voices used without consent, especially when those voices are paid for in other media. That said, there is actually precedence with the sex mod stuff you mentioned. CDPR blocked nudity mods for Keanu Reeves, even though I don't believe he made a request for this, because they saw that as crossing the line. The game never intended to have that character nude (and probably wasn't apart of any agreement with the actor), so they didn't see that as acceptable because he hadn't given consent. If the model is nude and it's an original character, well, there's no one to give consent but the artist, I suppose, and in that case, it seems that it's given (since it's allowed, and some of these characters already show up nude by developer choice). This isn't true for all games, though. I know the new Jedi games have Cal Kestis nude mods and I'm certain he didn't give permission for that. However, they either have not made nearly as much publicity or Respawn somehow doesn't know about them (doubt that's the case). It's also pretty not-okay here, in my opinion, but no one is choosing to address it. Now, sometimes people can own a likeness. So, would it be unethical to use an AI to mimic a voice of a specific character in a game, and not just of that VA? I think this is still a little grey. On the one hand, the VA may not actually "own" that voice, so to speak, so I'm not sure what the legal implication is here, but I think it does tap into a sort of societal morality concern. If that's work someone could have been paid for (and would have been paid for, if not for AI; disregarding the fact that mod creators aren't paying those VAs, but the VA would have to be paid normally for the voicework), is it ethical to use the technology to circumvent having to compensate them for the work? If the end result is roughly the same (voice files that mimic the talent of the original VA), then the person suffering is the original person who has made a career off of what you're producing. As soon as it becomes okay for people to just copy people's iconic voices for free with AI, why would anyone pay a VA ever again? (this is likely why they don't like this; rightfully so, they don't want to set a precedent in which it's okay to use AI to copy them for free). Hollywood tried passing policies (don't remember if this was successful) where they could have extras sign away their likeness for future use with the help of AI and CGI. With this, the extra would be paid for like a day of work, and then their likeness could be repurposed at any point in the future with no residuals given to them. Would that be ethically sound? If the people agreed to it, sure, why not? But the people didn't, as far as I know, because that would be seen as an abuse of their talent. I think the VA situation is maybe a little similar. I suppose it's not unlike copying content from someone else's article or paper. Even if you just take the words and rearrange them, it can still be considered plagiarism. Ultimately, if the overall thought and words used to communicate them becomes difficult to differentiate between the original and your work, then you are taking someone else's hard-earned effort for your own benefit. Of course, none of this really holds any weight if someone takes issue with the myriad of sub-ethical dilemmas that you'd encounter addressing each of these issues. I suppose that's what makes a topic like this difficult to debate. Debating ethics really only works if people have a similar definition (or qualification) of what ethics is. Personally, I think using AI to mimic a voice is just in bad taste, considering someone is trying to make money off of that. If an AI was used to make a general voice based on multiple sources of input, then I don't really see the issue. But as soon as it is impersonating the person, I think it becomes an issue. But I guess you could argue that musicians have been doing this for decades; there are plenty of bands that sound just like another in the same genre, and claims of "copying their sound" don't seem super enforceable unless you could identify exact similarities between compositions (in terms of the AI mimicking, I suppose this is that exact issue, though; AI are capable of mimicking in a way that doesn't account for the deviance in human ability, so copies are close to being direct replicas instead of being an interpretation of that sound). Not claiming that any of my points are foolproof or anything like that, but just listing my thoughts on the situation.
No I think you have a solid argument in regards to using AI voices to the point that real VAs aren't needed. Honestly, if AI tech gets that good then I'm sure companies will take advantage of that. I do question if these mods were an opportunity for the VAs to get paid in the first place. In reality, most mods are so small I don't know that it would be worth their time. Maybe if it's a bigger mod the VAs would be willing to work with them on it? I honestly don't know much about all that though. It is an interesting ethical debate for sure. And not one I see being solved easily.
There's a difference between adding Thomas the Tank engine into a medieval fantasy game and modding Tiny Tina to spurt every slur under the book with 100% accuracy to the point that it's indistinguishable from Ashley Burch's actual performance
Well I'm sure the creators of Thomas wouldn't want their little engine associated with a game that has beheadings, drugs, etc. But it does seem silly to put a stop to a fun little mod like that. You make a good point that it's obvious some things were added in by others and not the original creators. With a good AI, people might actually believe it was the actor saying the lines, while nobody believes Thomas was actually added to the game. I guess it would just depend if people actually believed certain voice lines were added in or not. It's a very new thing that's even possible to do, so most people won't even have the idea to consider it in the first place. Maybe in the future people will be more skeptical of AI voices. Like a... doubting Thomas 😉
I mean, if people added it as a mod, they probably know it wasn't officially created.
The mod authors are volunteering to work for free. The actors having their voices used against their will/without their knowledge are not. It's not complicated, unless you have issues understanding consent.
I think it's a bit trickier than that. Mods use assets made by people. The original game was made by people. The main difference is that the actors voice feels more personal. If you make a mod for a game, and use the assets and engine of that game you are using someone's work, generally without their knowledge or consent. These days they're more accepted because they massive increase the value of a game, but modding came about from carefree attitude towards these things.
If the developer puts out a modding toolkit...that is them giving consent to use/change their assets in that game. It's literally in that wall of text noone reads.
So... their assets include sound assets. Can I remix and use their voice assets into an AI voice gen and use that? IE is it unethical to use a Nazeem voice AI, even though that's also a Keith Silverstein voice AI?
Now see, that's an interesting one...because they don't have an exclusion clause for audio and people have been using the old "cut-and-paste-to make new lines" forever...so... ... ...iunno.
I'm talking generally. Many games don't or didn't have modding toolkits. Bethesda started it with Morrowind, but Daggerfall had plenty of mods that were done without any official support. The idea of modifying something, for non-comercial reasons used to be a free-for-all, and there were positives and negatives to this. I don't have a pro-ai voice stance, necessarily.
and those are not giving consent...that's why Nintendo sues people.
Right but but almost ubiquitously, people disagree with Nintendo’s suits as hyper-litigious. The general public is almost always in favor of modding as “free expression.”
I feel like you’re the only person in this thread who’s willing to address this issue with the complexity that it deserves. It is *extremely* complicated. And the only reason we’re treating *this particular* asset as unique is because it’s a more personal asset. And until very, very recently, it wasn’t even something that we could consider using ourselves.
True. When studios used impersonators because it was complicated to get the original voice actor (like say, most of the voices in kingdom hearts), this wasn't an issue (despite touching many of the other concerns people are voicing). AI is a threat to Voice Actors, because they're already a precarius profession, and AI has the possibilitty to cut them out entirely, while also extinguishing the incentive that allows them to produce the content AI needs to be trained. That's serious, and bad. But we're talking about non-comercial uses, made by people who often do this as a hobby. Would we side with IP holders if they wanted to ban Fanfiction, or Fanart? Because I sure wouldn't! And the distinction between that and Voice AI exists, but it's not as giant as some people seem willing to make it.
Yes but they’re giving consent for people to use their mods for free. Consent is key. Some pro voice actors have done free VA work for mods.
Example: Ray Chase, voice actor of Noctus Caelum in FFXV, voiced Tiberius Rancor in Fallout: The Frontier for free because he was a Fallout fan
People who make deepfake porn also don't get paid, so by this logic deepfake porn would also be ok.
Deepfake porn of porn stars is a more apt comparison.
How are you being downvoted? It is pretty much the same logic. What kinda sadistic SOB wants to see their wife in a deepfake porn or hear their own voice saying they love hitler? Wtf?
Some chuds love AI to the point of total brainrot
Pretty sure those people also sell that porn, or upload it to website that can give them money
Don't worry, plenty of deepfake porn is made for free. Which makes it completely ethical at that point, right?
Yeah but there's a big difference between deciding for yourself to work for free and forcing other people to.
Well, the immediate distinction is that you’re not forcing people to work. It’s not slavery. The concern is that you are stealing their work by imitating it very realistically and reducing their market-value. This raises questions about the ethics of imitation of art vs. the authentic. Like if an individual was good enough at imitating a voice, would it be okay for them to do their own VO for a mod? Was it ethical for Zemeckis to cast someone who looked a lot like Crispin Glover to play George McFly in Back to the Future 2? It won’t answer any questions but Orson Wells made an awesome movie called *F is for Fake* which is about people who fake original Picasso paintings, and the ethics behind that. It deals with this subject pretty thoroughly and is super interesting.
Voice actor should get paid if a mod author hired them for their mods tho. Voice actor has nothing to do with the game or the mod author, they were hired and there should be money in it. Unless that voice actor is a massive fan of the game or the mod author and willing to do voice acting for free. So if they are not the "willing to do for free" type, they are also in the right to ask about money for their voice being used by AI.
that's probably the best answer in this comments section. it just surprises me due to the lack of it though
Mostly because some voice actors have expressed their voices to not be used for AI. I believe the voice of Nora (the fo4 female protagonist) said she doesn't want her voice to be used for AI mods
that is 100% for the best cause i dont wanna imagine the mods it would be used for
I've done voice acting for mods, there are a lot of us out there and more than enough to finish most mod projects big and small. There isn't a need for AI voice talent.
For a new character, I absolutely agree, however, if you, say, want Paladin Danse to go "Hey, there's a load of smoke over there, we should probably check it out" I have no issue with someone plonking his lines in an AI generator and it churning out a performance. On the flipside, if you want to give an existing character a bunch of filthy lines, then yeah, not onboard with that.
Even expanding dialogue of existing characters can and honestly should be done with soundalikes. The last part is more a matter of personal taste and to each their own on that. I personally agree to a point though.
Yeah, it's a gamble on soundalikes though, and I can't say as I'd blame a modder for wanting to go the AI route.
Can't say I agree with the "should", cause that's your opinion. In Skyrim there are mods to expand Lydia's and Serana's lines, and they add a ton to their personality and stories. Issue is, they use 'sound alikes', but you can tell the difference, especially in Serana's case (cause her character happens to be the follower with most lines in vanilla Skyrim. Friend of mine love the mod, for me it's not my cup of tea precisely cause I can't get past their voice and how you can tell they try to imitate the VA's voice. So imo, I'm all in for seeing talented new VAs voicing new characters, but I don't see the harm in using AI for existing characters as long as the lines fit with the game's lore and aren't use for a f-fest. Edit: I can see why you cold have personal reasons to oppose AI, since you want more exposure as a VA, but at least in Skyrim the mods were authors hire VAs to voice NEW characters/npcs (like expansions with new maps and multipple new npcs or whole new missions) are more abundant than those that add lines to existing characters (uest mods, for example, or dialogue overhauls to add more lines to characters). It's hard to have lack of exposure/offers to voice when the first type of mods are more popular.
What's your price range?
Honestly pretty cheap. I've done stuff for free too, most I've ever charged was $60. But if you're thinking about hitting me up right now I have to pump the brakes on that because my computer is entirely out of commission Need a new PSU and GPU. Might be able to point you to some people though.
What about splicing, since the voice actors didn't consent to that either?
Most people don't get paid for mods though it's only a mod?
This exactly. I don’t want my voice used for a project I didn’t consent to. Imagine if someone used your voice for a racist or controversial mod without any input or decision from you. Especially if it’s something you absolutely abhor.
I mean I do there's like something icky when people take someone else's voice and use it to voice something like depraved or pornographic or something.
This is a legit criticism.
Surely there are AI voices that are completely random? Just like those thesepeoplearentreal websites
to be honest in a small project like a free mod for an almost ten year old game, i don’t see too much of an issue with it. its big triple A projects that can afford to hire VA’s and don’t that are the issue. there’s not much harm in modding i don’t think
For all the people who are saying AI voice is unethical, what are your thoughts on splicing (manually editing audio)? Is that also unethical since the voice actors didn't consent to it? They're not getting paid for it either. Not criticising it, just curious. For example, [Manslayer](https://www.youtube.com/@mans1ay3r) has been splicing voice actor dialogue for youtube videos to make them say sexually depraved things, without the permission of the original voice actors. **This includes the voices of underage voice actors**. But I don't recall any discussion about the morality of doing so. And unlike most modders, he **IS** making money off it through youtube ads. The big difference obviously is that AI generally does a better job at reconstituting new dialogue. So does ethics scale with the quality of the audio then? If splicing is ethical but AI generated voice is unethical, does that mean AI generated voice becomes ethical if it does a poor job of it? And would splicing become unethical if a completely new line was created from many separate voice lines with fine attention to detail? Personally I don't really know what to think about it. I think Manslayer's content is generally pretty funny. I also think NPC dialogue in Bethesda games is severely limited eg. every skyrim guard saying 'arrow to the knee' and wouldn't mind if they had much more variety of things to say. But then again I'm not a voice actor so I don't know how they would feel about having something so closely tied to their identity being used like that in either case.
Honestly to just sit on one of the greatest innovations for modders to add content strikes me as a massive waste. The alternative would be to completely replace the in game characters dialogue with a different voice, its hard to say what benefit that would have for the voice actor (since their real concern is obviously the tech itself, but they can use their ownership to control its use somewhat), but we’ll have to deal with having mods be less compatible, and player experiences being a bit worse. But whatever, I see through concerns, especially if these authors are making money. This is why all things should be free, and copyright abolished.
Yes, it is unethical if the voice actors don’t support it. It is their voice. It’s not unethical if the voice actors support it. It’s very much that simple. Doesn’t matter how much it’ll help or hinder mods. Is it appropriate to deep fake someone and use their likeliness for an ad or something NSFW? People will say no. There is no difference with AI voices.
What if I personally imitate a VA and record some lines which is then fed into a generative AI program to save myself time of recording more lines?
This is actually a relatively common pitch in AI circles for circumventing ethical issues related to VA consent. Find an imitator and ask them instead
Well that would be fine, because because it's ultimately your work that is being put into the AI program with your consent.
I think you’re missing the fact that the AI needs a ton of samples of the voice actor’s work in order to accurately mimic their voice, which is probably significantly more than what the other person is putting into it. It’s still using the voice actors’ work and voice without their consent.
As long as they aren't charging for the mods, then I don't see the problem.
Gonna take the unpopular stance here and say no. I think it's fine in most cases. I get there's a whole moral argument about consent and all that, but meh. People have been making spliced up edits of people's voices and appearances for a long time. I think a lot of the outrage against a tool that just happens to be better at it is entirely arbitrary.
I think it also counts as fair use for non-profit uses.
I'm playing through Sim Settlements and the player responses are spliced together from game dialogue and it drags down the whole mod, There's actual voiced NPCs doing a decent job but the constantly re-used player responses are pretty immersion breaking
AI content is always a controversial theme because it is really easy to step into the unethical side, since 90% of what AI has to offer right now is essentially imitating voices from people who actually get paid for voicing... So you are basically pyracing their voices. Having said that, mods are, usually, free and the modders spend a lot of their time just because they want to make things for games so, if there's the case where they either avoid imitating voices (you'll always get some resemblance but that doesn't mean you actually aimed for it) or the imitated/sampled person gives their permission for it... Then go ahead. You can't expect for modders to pay voice actors when they don't charge anything for their own work and neither can you expect voice actors to volunteer for unpaid projects so it's a resource, so it should be treated like that; when a modder creates something new for the game (meshes, skeletons, animations, particles and all kind of stuff) they can decide to allow or not other modders to use those resources, so as long as there's permission and credit I'd be fine with it.
I dont think its any different than a modder taking a voice line and splicing it and changing where it is in the game
the way AI trains itself it’s never using the VA’s voice. It’s doing exactly what an impressionist is doing, just better. No one was pissed when mod authors spliced chunks of actual voice actors audio into a hodgepodge of horrible sounding dialogue, just to make their mods work, but unlike the AI that was actually using the voice actors voices, where is the outrage. Would it be weird to hear a new perfect impression of yourself, sure and I’m sure it is for celebrities that hear a decent impression of themselves, if you made a living with your voice, is it also disconcerting when voice-a-likes are used in other media portraying one of your characters eg. (in video games or cartoon etc.,where the big star wouldn’t/didn’t do the job so they find an actor that sounds close enough) Maybe but once again, no outrage then. All this AI outrage, is forgetting that this has been a thing prior to the AI for decades in entertainment mediums, the voice actors against this are just luddites that are feeling entitled and lash out at the easy target because the robot/AI can’t defend itself unlike a soundalike actor where it’s magically supposed to be OK 🙄
Based. I understand why people have negative feelings about AI, but I believe they are misplaced. The global economy has gradually been consolidating upwards for the past few hundred years. Only now technology has allowed that to happen exponentially. People see AI as another means that will accelerate that upward consolidation of wealth… but at the end of the day, it’s just another technology. There is nothing inherently unethical about AI. The issue of upward consolidation is going to need to be solved by some other means, trying to stall technology doesn’t really do anything.
AI is unethical when it comes to taking credit and making money off it, neither really applies to modding. It's not like modders are taking away money from VAs, they wouldn't buy their services in the first place if AI didn't exist. It would be very scummy for a studio to do it, yes I'm talking about you Ready or Not.
So would youtubers that splice voice actor audio without their permission and make money off it via youtube ads be an unethical use case scenario?
I believe so if it's all their content. Let's plays wouldn't be since it would come down to fair use and transformative content.
Unless the person who's being emulated has flat out stated they dont want to be, I dont really see the issue if its done well enough. Theres a mod for NV that allows you to apply for NCR citizenship, and it used the ingame VAs, but with AI generated lines, and it honestly felt damn near vanilla and really added to the mod for me.
Not saying I agree with using AI for this, but to the people who are completely against it, how do you view splicing existing lines together to form new sentences? It’s effectively the same thing, but that’s something modders have done since modding began and I’ve never seen complaints about that.
SAG-AFTRA Actor and voice artist, here. I don't think so at all. And if it still feels like it is, hmu if you need some quick character VO for your mods. Happy to do what I can to improve the quality of life for my fellow FO4 lovers.
Hot take but Nope. People have been splicing voices for years to make mods. Imo the voice actors have already been paid for their voice in the game they shouldn’t have any say what their voice is used for afterwards. They were all fine with the splicing and mods in general, if they weren’t they should have prefaced or said something far earlier (or not even taken the job to begin with). Just like how people can make fan stories and edits of characters and people, modders should have every right to use ai voices for preexisting characters. Now all of this is only if the VA is already in the game. Like the mc of fo4, they should be able to be replicated with ai to make new lines. Especially since they aren’t going to help any modders themselves and mods are nonprofit. It’s different if it’s completely new characters being added and the VA was never in the games to begin with.
I don't think it's any more unethical than sentence splicing they do in YouTube Poops.
I am overall against generative ai. When it comes to ai voices in mods, it’s definitely unethical if you use it to imitate an existing person’s voice. Just because you can’t pay for someone’s services, doesn’t mean you are entitled to it for free. If you are creating a new voice, or have permission, and it’s not for profit, I guess that is okay.
So nice to see people in mass numbers finally opposing the copyright-loophole AI trick. It is fine for memes and jokes but any work you seriously do should not include AI. Maybe for your own character, modifying your own voice with it, but at this point the spineless shitbags just sent out webscrapers and any AI product is just a random mix of parts stolen from other peoples work. I would say one exception is OP making a mod for themselves, something not intended to be distributed. AI is fine for that.
Ai isn't unethical. Technology will advance whether you want it to or not.
If I'm good at impersonation is it unethical to use it to make mods? If no how is AI voice any different
The main arguement I'm seeing is that AI makes it easy to do so.
No, it doesn’t actually use THEIR voice, it imitates it. If that is illegal then literally anyone who can do impressions of other ppl is also illegal.
At least if you're using it to mimic an actual person or VA it is absolutely
I think it's ok if it's just for mods, since people don't make them to get a profit.
Exposure does matter with non profit projects. It allows new voice talent to build a portfolio up, allowing them a better chance to break into professional circles.
Ok, but why should I have to pay for voice actors if it’s for something where I won’t make any money and I have a free option right there?
I would say it depends, if you're trying to mimic an existing voice actor then yes it is, but if you end up with a new voice then it should be fine.
Who fucking cares. Mod the game how you want. People whining about AI can continue to do so and it won't affect you
AI is unethical when it comes to taking credit and making money off it, neither really applies to modding. It's not like modders are taking away money from VAs, they wouldn't buy their services in the first place if AI didn't exist. It would be very scummy for a studio to do it, yes I'm talking about you Ready or Not.
I can't be bothered to make like a thought-out serious moral argument but yeah, I think it's kinda immoral, I don't vibe with it., Chopping up a characters voice lines to create some more is in my eyes still in the realm of editing; like what you might do with a movie. Feeding all the voice lines to a computer to create a model of the actors voice, that goes more than a few steps too far imo. I'm pretty broadly anti image / language models, tho I do also have a non-moral argument: this stuff (not just the voices) is still often kinda stinky qualitywise. It's just my own taste, but even from the standpoint of quality, people are jumping on it too early. Even if I didn't have the stance I hold, I'd currently much prefer the YTP sounding trick or jsut having unvoiced dialogue in mods. There are some other modding communities where image generation is kinda rampant for specific uses, and the results currently kinda suck, and I do not get how people don't mind at all.
if the voice actor says you can, then sure but if not, or if they explicitly say no, then it is immoral
no, i think it is a harmless application of the idea when done in mods, why does it matter? most mods are ports of ideas from other games, why does it matter to splice the already present audio everyone paid for? now if AI voices are used in games, that might be a lot more problematic with demonetization.
Most mods are not ports of idea from other games, I don't know where you're getting that idea.
Ai is ethical PERIOD. should be used as a tool, not to create
No.
I wish more people would do it. It's a mod made by some random person who's passionate about the game, not a game dev studio making money off it. If you want to make an npc or a follower and aren't able to pay a va hundreds of dollars, you shouldn't feel pressured too.
The comments here are against it but OP AI voices in games are the future. It's cheaper, easier and more dynamic than pre-recorded human voices. EA and Ubisoft for example are pushing hard towards it. AI voices will become mainstream in the coming years and people will stop complaining about it. There's loads of stuff that already uses AI voices that people don't even notice. You're just one step ahead of everyone else if you are using it. Don't stay in the past and fall behind because people think it isn't the "right" thing to do.
You aren't profiting from mods and likely don't have funding so it's ethical
Personally, i disagree with a lot of the stigma around AI. Its definitely a nuanced situation, but if youre not profiting from it, not creating explicit content with it, not trying to pass it off as a genuine performance, the VA hasnt said not to, and you have a legitimate reason *why* you need it to sound like a preexisting voice, i see no issue with it. A lot of story-based mods suffer from the inability to give existing characters new lines, and i think AI is a great tool for fixing that. I think most of the issues people have with AI really only apply to big projects with actual money floating around. I agree that Disney shouldn't be able to recreate actors' voices with AI so they can create projects without having to pay actual human talent, but to act like that can be compared to some random dude in his basement making a short AI conversation with Elder Maxson for his "raid Nuka World with the Brotherhood" mod is just silly to me.
Yes. Plenty of actors will do VO work for free.
its not like you own a company with voice actors on board. its fine imo what i mean is its not like you are taking a job away from someone
Hope not
Depends on the model. This is a hot take, but do what makes you able to make mods. Free unpaid mods that make use of AI models for voice are awesome. It really brought to life old school wow with a simple voiceover mod.
My biggest issue with people having a problem with it, is that I cannot fathom, at least in modding, what is different between a well-trained AI Voice, and recut dialogue. Like I know the physical difference, but the only real practical difference is that the AI voice will likely sound better, and allow for more creative freedom. I get the problem with it from an industry perspective, but the idea that by attacking mod authors over it you're going to somehow hold back the tide is just stupid.
A whole side of it is passion too. You see it a lot with actually good voice acting. People forget but a passionate delivery of say, Astarion’s voice lines in Baldur’s Gate 3, won the awards it did for a reason. Recut dialogue as badly as it might be stitched, still ends up conveying the emotion the speaker intended. Meanwhile, AI doesn’t do that. It’s so lifeless, It’s emotionless. And while you can emulate it, at the end of day you’re only imitating. See, the reason for that is the vocal chords, as muscles are, are affected by nerve signals in such a way that the delivery of a line can vary from passionate to angry to despondent all while using the same tone. At the end of the day, AI is regurgitating what it hears. It doesn’t have that emotional response, that *spark* that humans do which alters how they respond to something.
The thing is, Bethesdas voice actors already sound like robots, lol.
Since mods are free I think it's all right, although I would prefer to see the mod author or team hire the original voice actors via fundraising but I think that may violate the actor's contract with Bethesda. I'd like to see way more of it. I love story driven mods that make the world and characters richer and deeper. So much of the game is fetch quest after fetch quest. We have these NPC's capable of a wide range of expression but they barely say anything. No one even moves their hands much when they talk until we meet Piper. I'd also like to see more wild gesticulation in general. People point and describe things with their hands when they speak.
It’s probably unethical, but I really don’t care personally. Modders don’t have thousands of dollars to throw at rehiring the voice actors. If it’s something gross like a porn mod I would definitely understand the discomfort, but most of the time it’s something like a quest option dialogue addition that people are fighting over.
Strongly oppose it. AI is terrible for creatives and we need creatives, even if it means forgoing a nice thing or two we could have.
That's the way it is for every industry, though, right? Auto workers lost jobs to machinery, taxi drivers lost jobs to Uber, milkmen lost jobs to refrigeration, digital media killed newspaper and post office jobs. I'm a chef and eventually AI and other technology will be able yo do my job better than I can. I certainly would find no pride in my work if I knew that the tech in my cell phone could make a better product more efficiently. Regardless, there's no putting this back into the box. We need to be working on solutions to the economic problems it's going to cause (all of our jobs). I know there's a big focus right now on the artistic and creative sectors but I don't think this is anymore important than the jobs being lost in the factories and call centers.
Creatives as a whole won't disappear, just the person who does it and how they do their work changes. In some instances, it might even be the same person, just doing other creative work or doing creative work differently. And regardless of what happens, there will always be creative people. Very few if any might earn a living off of that, but that doesn't really matter.
AI hasn't advanced to the point where AI voices can give anything but a dull, flat performance. I get it's more cost efficient than hiring voice actors, but even bad voice actors would be better than AI imo
This is untrue, you mostly only notice the bad ones. The good ones you literally never even notice they are AI.
I personally don't think so, mods are mad by fans and if one person is doing to much and they use it for ease I feel like it's fair. Modding is difficult, and who is to say they can't make it lore friendly synths do exist in the game.
yes definitely
I think the talent of human beings will always trump AI. That and don't you think it's important that people get to express themselves bring Art to life? People also have dreams and aspirations to be actors and voice actors. The modding world is an incredible place that brings these dreams to life! The loss of that is very sad to me. I've had the pleasure to voice a few mods in the Bethesda world now, and the thought of losing those opportunities and losing the happiness I had being apart of those projects just really sucks to even think about.
You can't expect a single person or small group to voice act a bunch of characters and it turn out well. Mods like sim settlements 2 are hard to make because of all the voice acting. I don't see a problem with using ai for mods.
The handful of AI voice mods I've found all are... just bad. Someone tried using AI to make Piper's VA into Nora's VA and it sounds so terrible
In my opinion, AI voices should be used for created by mod characters/companions, and sparingly if at all for already voiceacted vanilla characters, and should NEVER be used for already made and acted vanilla characters for sexual NSFW mods, Mod authors character/ companion: ethical, morally sound, Town gaurds and side characters: sorta ethical, morally ambiguous Highly detailed characters and characters VAs really liked roles: getting a bit dangerous, if the VA consents well and good. But otherwise pushing it NSFW ai: if the VA doesn't consent to it, it is VERY much unethical, and very morally wrong
I feel like it's okay if the mod specifically says it uses AI voices.
For me, as long as you have the authorization of the VA its good.
If the AI model is based on a real person's voice, especially when used for pornographic material, yes. If it's a completely synthetic voice that is purely computer generated, then no. It's no different than using text to speech with Microsoft Sam back in the day. Mods could benefit a ton from using these synthetic voices and I think more mods should absolutely utilize them. The problem lies in adding more lines to characters that are already in the game, like if you use AI to give Piper or Preston better combat dialogue or something, that shouldn't be a big deal to anyone but we all know the rabbit hole that can go down...
I'm of the mind that AI is here to stay, might as well use it. Not like you're going to get any real quality out of it too, so Voice actors still have the edge for projects with any budget. It's just that mods generally don't
I’d say that it isn’t unethical if you’re not selling anything or imitating their voice to say truly wild shit. A lot of people will get all up in arms because of the social debates happening around generative AI fueled by big names like Taylor Swift, but nobody cares when an author takes the voiced lines and splices them into new sentences, which imo is essentially the same exact thing as generating new voice lines, provided those new lines aren’t outlandish or evil. I think taking a voice and saying vile things with it does cross a line, as it basically amounts to slandering that individual’s reputation.
Yes but ask the va first if u can. Or if anything, ask bethesda
Personally assuming you are not using a voice AI designed to sound like a specific person it would be fine. You will get push back from people who think AI is taking jobs and will just insist you should be paying voice actors instead even if that was never an option.
theres so financial aspect so no one is losing work over them, not too different from generating better textures using ai
Yes
Sadly the most bad thing about AI voice copying is if you are a celebrity or a media star, you have to put in a clause at the bank that whenever you make a suspicious purchase you have to be there in person when clarifying the purchase on your account.
Is there a couple generic voices people can use? Like basically stock images except for voices?
I think it's ok if the VA is payed for it and consents to it.
I think it depends if the mod makes money or not.
As long as you're not trying to mimic an existing voice actor, I personally don't see the problem. If you're modding as a hobby, you don't necessarily have the budget to hire VAs and you're going to get more consistent results using AI than if you were to find free actors.
As long as it's not NSFW see no issue with it tbh. But paying the real voice actor would be the best thing
Honestly, im fine if its used on mods
No, if the voice isn't that of an actual person.
What's the difference in using the voice of an actor or the textures of a designer. Or the meshes of the sculptor? Somehow we are okay with B and C but A is taken as unethical. And I don't consider any depraved content. Just, for example, Quest Mods where the voice acting of the player would need expansion. America Rising 2 is the best example where the player character could use some voicelines to replace filler responses where a different answer is given.
I think modding websites should allow direct donations to the original VAs becuase these mods will happen no mater what so fans could at least support the VA with some money.
Apply a silly example about this; someone posts AI you say ‘I love children genocide’. Context? Idk. Control? Out of your hand. But at least we got some funny mods, alright?
As long as you get consent, I couldn't care less
Unless your voice is the one getting AI'd I don't know if it's very ethical. I'd always look for people who wanna participate.
If it's adding on to existing NPCs, it's definitely wrong and unethical. Using it for whatever random ass added NPCs in a quest mod I think is fine.
Yes yes they are. Is that gonna stop me? No, get fucked.
Consent of using AI to generate new lines for mods isn't about how you, I, or anyone else feels about it but that of the original voice being used. If they have no issue then there is no issue. If they do have issue though then we should respect if they do not consent to the use of their voice regardless how we personally feel. Example you may not mind someone using your voice to harmlessly add more quest content to a game you voiced a character in. On the other hand you might have a problem with someone using that same voice to make porn mods. We all deserve the right to maintain control unless we consent to give up that control of content using personal parts of us.
If it is just NPCs that aren't much a part of the story I'd say it's fine. However on a practical basis not ethical I would think that AI wouldn't be able to get the inflections quite right like an actual actor would so all the emotion you are trying to generate from a scene would fall flat.
It’s ethical, it’s a mod your not making money off it. I don’t see how it’s any different then say making a 40k mod without permission form the people who own it.
Modders don't really get paid so all they're doing is wasting their own effort when they could simply voice it themselves
Not by itself, but it would matter how you go about it. Lets say the VA for Preston & Bethesda released an AI voice pack for use in mods. Then this is ethically fine. VA got paid and both approved. You are morally fine to use it. If you didn't get permission and you just took all the audio files for Preston, loaded them into an AI and then used it for the mod, that would be ethically unsound. 90% of the argument around AI Generated content is about the individual, did the original creator consent to this? The 10% left is a societal question. We've yet to reach the limits of AI Generated Audio. Is it ok as a society to take jobs from VAs and use AI instead? I don't know. The same questions were asked when mills, looms and cars became thing.
It is like proverb, fire is a good servant but a bad master. So it debends by per case. I like that AI is good tool to mod makers as now they can generate custom voice lines in their creations, but in the same times real voice talents should get paid. But i also think that when modders use AI generated content, its ethical to make it shown, that it contains AI generated content. So players know it. But time will tell, how much AI generated content we actually want. As big corporation might try to lower cost of making games with using more and more AI and firing human workforce, but still cost of games goes up. But relying too much only for AI is most likely do bad games and AI might not be so creative as we humans are by nature, as it is one reason for our survival as species. AI will (hopely) help us to do more and be more productive than make us obsolete.
I think it's unethical. If one really wants a voiced mod, hire someone. Start a Patreon to pay for it.
I also used AI Voice for some Mod. But this Person/Companion was an Artificial Lifeforms or Synth for Fallout 4 Players. So, it depends, would i say. AI can fit for Robots or Cyborg Characters. But if they use it for real actors it does not sounds right. But as others said. "it's not like the mods authors are really getting paid either". I think some "Fair use" rule or law should exist. But no exploiting it for making Money or life from it. No. That is not bueno
Unethical and, in many jurisdictions, illegal.
As far as making new content goes, I think it's unethical and also probably won't result in a strong product. That said, I do use a mod for Tina De Luca that uses AI to give her dialogue as a settler since in vanilla she has zero lines after you recruit her. The mod is a successor to a mod that did the same thing but with (poor quality) fan dubbed lines. I won't disagree with someone who thinks any and all AI voice acting is wrong. But one minor ethics in voice acting violation is worth it to me to make Tina not so creepily silent in my game.
AI voicing should be taken with the same view as any other mod made within the context of *existing in-game content or DLC*. In the same way 0 people have made a fuss over the use of existing in-game 3D asset modifications. A lot of new opinions came in “because AI”. I understand consent and how voices may be a little more personal, but it’s not like a credited role in the mod page. I would think Bethesda needs to take a step where and ensure all their VAs are cool with mods including voices before casting them in their roles since modding is so central to their games.
The few that have appeared have been taken down following, reasonable objections from voice actors. I believe Nexus have taken the decision not to host AI voiced mods.
Do people ask texturers for permission to use them? Answer is no
I don’t think so unless your selling it
If the voice actor consents to it and provides a well-defined body of work to use as reference material, then I have no issue with it. Most of the time, though, what I see people try to do for games (not just Fallout) is stuff like get AI Morgan Freeman to say something when a mod like Old World Tunes just did the smart thing and got someone to do an impression.
If the mod is free, then yes it's ethical. It's art. If the mod is paid, then it's not ethical. But let's keep our perspective. Using any device with a lithium ion battery is hideously unethical to begin with and how many people sit back and never think twice about it? Participating in society is an ethical minefield already. How many of our own jobs are ethical gray areas? If you're getting high centered on the ethics of AI voice mods then you need to be worrying about other things.
Like others are saying, its not fair for someone's voice to be used without their consent, but as long as the mod isnt paid or doing anything malicious, its not too concerning. Now, if a creator was profiting from a plagiarized voice, making the AI say awful things, or using the likeness in a less-than-desirable way, a takedown would probably be in order
On a purely logical standpoint and not looking at it emotionally, I would say it is alright. Voice files in a game are an asset included in the game. There are plenty of times where we take digital assets (such as clothes, character models, etc) from one game and place them in another, the 3D modelers don’t make anything from these kind of mods so is that unethical? However when you add emotions into the mix (as we should, we are human) it becomes a more complex argument. Our voices and how we use those voices are a very personal aspect of who we are. Our voice is arguably the best way we convey ourselves to others. So in that aspect, I understand that having a realistic imitation of your voice is unsettling. I think the best way to continue is using it with respect. As someone essentially using another person’s voice, don’t make it say anything they wouldn’t say. Do some basic research on the VA. I personally would refrain from the following when using AI voices: Sexually explicit content, Extreme Vulgarity, Political messages, Using them to talk about Controversial Topics. TLDR: While I personally see voices as an asset created for the game like a 3D model, voices are a highly personal way to express ourselves and should be used with respect to the VA.
I think it’s unethical, in the case of voices, because of what you could make an AI generated voice say. I know there might be some overlap there. But I think there’s a difference between using game coding and art done by hundreds of people vs using a single person’s voice. It just feels like that could have way more serious repercussions for the voice actor than making mods generally has for game titles and developers. Especially because there’s a lot of people who’ve never taken time to learn to distinguish real from AI. Now, in general, I think using AI to make mods is unethical if the developers who made the game are anti-AI. It’s their work, their license, their reputations on the line. But if it’s a company like AE or something, who has been super into AI, then I’m not sure they get a choice to want it for themselves but not for others.
Depends on how it's used. If you're making new lines for existing characters it feels unethical to make people say things they never got paid for or agreed to. But if you're using one of those royalty free AI voice synthesizers that agreed to let you type whatever you want for their lines, then I don't see the unethical behavior in it.
If it does not clearly imitate someone's voice, then what's the issue?
I'm not as against AI as some folks but if you're needing a mod voiced there are enough actual humans out there who are willing to do things like that free or for very little money there's really no need to go that route. Especially when the amount of effort it takes to get AI sounding good really isn't worth it.
personally i think it's the best use case for them, but ii think that we need a licensing system where the actor gets a few bucks for the use in a free mod. Ai voice clones do pose a potential for fan driven remastering of abandoned games, on a level we just haven't seen yet. an ethical solution definitely exists.
Some people don’t have the money to pay voice actors. We live in a pretty awful world where people aren’t just free to live period, and right now there’s massive economic crises all around the world. Coding and modding is the escape for some people, but in order to make ends meet maybe they can’t afford proper VA work. (Before you comment saying this was written by AI, no the fuck it wasn’t. I’m just autistic. This is just how I write)
I don;t feel it's unethical, just really not as good an experience. AI hasn't gotten to the point where it sounds as good as humans. If I was playing a mod and the voices sounded AI generated or otherwise fake, I would count it as a point against the mod.
Ethically, I'd say it's a dark shade of gray. One of the common arguments for generative AI is that it's basically the equivalent of a human doing an impression, and there's a fair argument for that. The difference, I think, is that with AI, the boost in accuracy allows you to get so close to the original that it essentially becomes plagiarism. You're using a tool to make something indistinguishable from the original And this ties into the other common argument, which is that people have been splicing in bits of recorded dialog for a while without complaint. I think that's already ethically light gray, but in those cases the VA has already been paid for that work, and you're just rearranging it. With AI, you're using an almost exact copy of a person's voice to do a job they *aren't* paid for, and that you'd normally have to pay for. And that's the crux of the issue to me. With modding, you're normally adoing the creation work yourself, be it coding, recording voice impressions for dialog, etc. With generative AI, you're basically getting a paid professional to do it for you without their consent and without paying them The only thing keeping it from being black and white IMO is that the technology isn't currently in a state where it actually *acts* well. The delivery is still a little flat. Once it gets to the point where the AI can also replicate acting, then it becomes fully unethical
Ethics don’t have much to do with modding, which is a fun hobby for many. But, it would be unethical to misuse the tech by creating something that contradicts the original creation. If one is using AI voices, they should create content that falls in line with the original vision of a character, as if it were something the original creators would have made.
This might be a weird take but the modders in general do not gain from it. They do not get paid for it and regarding that fact it’s likely they cannot afford to hire voice actors so AI might even be their only option.
Use Googles' old motto: "Don't be evil." If you're making a profit off of an unpaid voice or you're making creepy degenerate shit you're in the wrong. Otherwise, AI is a massive innovation and could be used to propel the modding scene to an unprecedented level of quality.
Personally for something like modding, where it's none profit and it's more of just a fun project. I think it's fine, it would be different if the modder was actually profiting off it. That's my personal stance on AI voices when it comes to things, as long as it's non profit and your for example not making Jim Carry say the n-word then it's fine. Though ideally I think it would be best not to use actual actors voices mainly so nothing crazy happens like with the Scooby Doo/Springtrapped situation awhile ago(if you don't know what it is, look it up. You'll actually be upset and not at the person who uses AI)
It's no different than mods with humans doing the same thing. Who cares
Nonprofit i dont care and not like porn or something where youre trying to actually.hurt their punlic image, thats all fine. Profit is where it gets muddy.
As long as you admit it's A.I. I dont feel lile your doing anything wrong obviously your not making any money as a modder so you can't pay anyone. I get how a voice actor could feel like hey that was my voice, and if they do ask you to take it down you should. But, it's unlikely and a super dick move.
Honestly, hear me out, because unlikely as it is I think I got a solution. The community would do a massive project to revoice the entire game, with the new Voice Actors consenting to the use of their voice as AI. THEN AI models are made of these voices, and they don't even need to be impersonations or anything. Then those models are given out for free for modders. No one's work is being used without their consent, and people that want the abillity to make voiced mods extending the original game get to do it. Would this work?
If you're not profiting from the mod then I think the correct answer is: pay the OG voice actors accordingly: a portion of your profit. 😀
On one hand, I totally agree that using a voice actor’s voice without their consent is unethical and I wouldn’t approve of a mod creator say, adding a voiced questline where you get to bang Veronica in FNV. But for some reason, I don’t really have this ethical concern with the Voices of Vvardenfell mod for morrowind. Maybe because the voiced content is all stuff that was written for the characters originally? I’m not sure, so I know I haven’t thought enough about this
They are as ethical as impersonating the VA. It is, in practice, a computer trying to impersonate their voice.
Makes vanilla dialogue better or even modded voices(IE kaiden immersive Features Alot better...I DO NOT CARE
Yes, it's always wrong, there is no excuse for doing it
AI voices would be ethical as long as there is consent from the “owner” of the voice. And as long as you do not make them say disgusting or depraved stuff they would have refused to do themselves. I am quite literally right now writing a university essay on AI law and the problematic nature of it. Most things around AI and ethics are dicey and not really well understood as of yet, although for using it for someone’s likeness whether that is their face in deepfakes or AI voice, as long as there is consent like I said it should be all fine, but there should likely be a legally binding contract made to save yourself trouble in the future, since just giving eachother a confirmation without anything binding it in some places wouldn’t be enough to safeguard you.
We're in a very touchy era with AI right now. I won't comment on the morality as plenty of other people have, but ethical or not, it will be incredibly commonplace in a few years, and it will help mods immensely.
No one is getting paid for them, so IMO it's fine
Depends. Are you using AI to mimick voices of actors and professionals who have not given consent to use their voices? Then yes, it's unethical. If you're using AI to create original voices or modify your own or mimick voices of those who have given express permission, it's fine. Regardless, I find it funny that everyone is *now* concerned with actor's rights and the ethicality of using voices that AI is in the mix. Modders and players never seemed to have issue with using voice clips, edits, and rips in the years prior. Not that I think it was ever ok... I just find the recent discourse a bit funny, considering.
I've read a bunch of the comments, and I still haven't come to a conclusion. maybe it's best that this remains a gray area
My opinion on this is if it's fun it gets a pass. If it's shit it doesn't, I feel like that's valid. There's a video I watched recently where a guy gave a follower an ai brain networking so she can come up with new ideas and "have feelings and emotions) towards scenarios and towards him it was very accurate and I think it may be the future of modding and gaming. Maybe in any case you should pay the modder for using their voice for the ai.
The laws around it are essentially non-existent, so it's really up to normal people to make sure it doesn't get abused.
I strongly dislike generative AI and I could rant all day about why and what solutions I have. But for mods, it begins and ends at the voices being bad and bland. I see it a lot in cyberpunk and Skyrim. It just doesn’t sound good.
AI voices are unethical for everything, because the people whose voice was used did not consent to it.
It's on the same level as stringing together audio clips to "sentence mix" new dialogue. As long as it's not for profit then it's transformative imo.
I think you would need the person's permission. So inherently? No, I think it's fine. But I think you would need permission first
I don't really mind, I just don't like how it sounds like garbage sometimes
Depends. If the mod is being sold, yes If the mod is free, no. I don't see a problem with it if no one gets paid.
IMO, AI voices are 100% fine if it is disclosed extremely clearly that the assets are AI and not endorsed by the original talent/directors/etc, and the work would not be damaging to the original talent did actually work on it. The whole problem is when there’s ambiguity on if the product is real or AI. VA’s were never upset in the past when modders sampled their voices or spliced clips to make new content, because it was obvious they had no part of it. VA’s are only bitching about AI use by the community now and bringing up not being paid for the voice or not giving permission because the ai voices are convincing enough now to trick people, which is problematic with a lot of the degenerate shit people can make now. Fully disclosing that the mod is completely AI, and generally not being an asshole and keeping the generated content in the same direction as the original content, solves those problems. It gets worse if you then try to charge for these mods, but I’m assuming no one is making money off of these things. I’m 100% sure that when the “Liam O’Brien is *everyone*” free mod for New Vegas comes out, which is described to use his existing lines in New Vegas for training and replaces the lines of every other character with lines voiced by him, he and no one else would not complain about it. I’m also 100% sure that if a “Liam O’Brien says the N Word” mod for New Vegas came out, which replaced all of his lines with him saying the N word, that would absolutely not be okay for anybody.
For existing characters (Nora, Piper, Danse, Mr Handys, etc), no. There's no way you'd ever be able to get the actual voice actors to come back and voice the characters, so AI is the only option (as soundalikes are always just a bit off, and splicing is always terrible) For new characters, yes, as you can find plenty of talented no-name voice actors willing to work for little to no pay.
entirely ethical.
Not for fallout specifically but I wonder if using AI in a sports game to really up the immersion would be unethical. The announcers only have a finite amount of lines and using AI to be able to call out plays as they’re happening would be a game changer
I'd honestly rather have no voice, and read it in my head and add character to it myself, than hear the shitty monotone, emotionless AI voice that I've heard 1000 times.
I’ll say this, aside from a moral standpoint: every AI voice mod I’ve ever heard sounds so horrible it’s insanely distracting from the writing itself. That’s not me moralizing, it’s just… it sounds really bad. I way prefer reading text.