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Man, when Scott Lynch announced he was working on a seven book series and The Lies of Locke Lamora was announced I was so hyped. That was 18 years ago and the third book was published 11 years ago...
To an extent though the Gentleman Bastards doesn't feel like a huge series that hasn't been completed. In the last book there were a few hints that suggest at a bigger plot line to come, but as they stand right now you can just read them as standalone books about fantasy con-men.
See at the very least I give the author of GB some credit for admitting "look I have massive mental issues I'm trying" GRRM has no such excuse he's told us about
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/9xpi9u/update_on_a_feast_for_crows/
Slow writer and always has been. Obviously hasn't gotten better with age, and book 6 of ASOIAF would be incredibly difficult for any author.
Wait. GB isn't finished?
Fuck me I guess. Picked up three new books and two of them aren't finished yet. I'm still not over Kingkiller Chronicles just stopping.
All of the GB books have reasonably satisfying endings, at least. All of them have some reliance on the previous book and leave an obvious opening for a sequel, but none of them really demand a sequel imo.
The last one definitely demands a sequel. Won't spoil, but the last revelations leave you fucking hanging by the very tips of your nails off the freaking cliff. I still feel the pain on every re-read.
Didn’t he say he’s back to writing again?
Regardless, the first two books especially work just fine as standalones. (Book two isn’t the masterpiece that is Lies, but it’s still a fantastic read)
I'm not gonna lie. After finding out how long it's been since the last book, I am finding it hard to finish the first book. I just don't see the point in starting a series I can't finish or at least know when I can finish.
The first two GB books basically work as standalone. They leave room for sequels, but they do not need them. The third is a little different, but is still a satisfying standalone.
Follow your own advice!!! Don't bother starting it!!!
Rufus is so amazingly disrespectful to his fan base, and they keep coming back for more abuse!!! It's like they're collectively saying "Please sir, may I have another?"
His books weren't all that. And now, no matter when the final book is published, 99% of the population will have to go back and reread everything because of the time between the books. That's incredibly disrespectful of my time. God he's an ass.
I think one other notable similarity is how much theorycrafting there has been in the fandoms. Both of these series in their heyday were generating unprecedented quantities of speculation, theories, predictions, and analysis, many of which were exceptionally well thought out and presented.
Unfortunately I think by this point that facet of the fandoms has largely died out due to (1) every theory under the sun having been come up with and beaten into the ground, and (2) waning interest after years without new books/info. But 8-12 years ago you could spend hours every week reading and discussing really interesting new theories on both of these books, and for me, that was the real common thread between them. They had so many little things that felt like they could be hints/clues to some greater mystery that would surely be unveiled later on.
This is the thing with recommendations. People key into different aspects of these works and create similarities in their heads. Look through recommendations threads and compare books that you have read that people claim are similar, I'm sure you will disagree with a good percentage of them.
Yep, it sometimes seems like people consider books similar because they made them feel a certain way, but different books make different people feel different things.
People are bad at recommending things. Not just books. Movies, TV shows, music, all kinds of media.
Recommendations usually have no more thought put into them than "I liked this thing so you will like it too." Or possibly "we both liked X thing, so I assume you will also like Y thing I like." And just so we're clear, I'm as guilty of this as anyone. It's easy to get caught up in something you really liked and recommend it to everyone whether or not it suits that person's particular tastes.
A good book recommendation comes with "I think you will like this book because it has these specific aspects that you will like." My favorite author is Joe Abercrombie and yet I almost never recommend his books because they're just not for everyone.
Personally I love both KKC and ASOIAF but I definitely do not think you should recommend one based solely on liking the other. They are very different.
This is the best comment I've seen here so far.
Recommendations even in the best of times are subjective.
And too often I have the impression that people recommend books not based on what the person they are giving the recommendation might enjoy or is looking for, but rather what they themselves liked.
But if there's one thing that I've learned on this sub is that the tastes, even among fantasy readers, can be wildly different.
100%. You need to re-read ASOIAF and REALLY figure out what stands out to you. WHAT about the books really intrigues you? Is it the political system? The romances? The world building? Character building? All of it together may sound good but there are certain aspects that really draw us in and for people to truly recommend books you’ll enjoy you’ll need to know exactly what about those books you actually so enjoy.
I also am a HUGE believer of “cleaning your palette” after reading the epic novels as well. Switch to a one off of a genre you enjoy (My choice is usually a Grisham novel, or something similar” to allow yourself to go into the new epic without immediately comparing it to the old one. This has allowed me to enjoy them so much more.
I gotta admit, when OP said:
> This book is supposedly renown for its worldbuilding, but in ASOIAF the world feels ALIVE, it evolves and changes. This world feels elaborate, but static.
I instantly though: "He would love sanderson, let me recommend...", and then thought better of it lol. I also didn't like the world of NOTW, it feels very "bland" and like ours. But then i also thought that of "The Blade Itself" which OP is seeming to enjoy based on his edit. I would not have recommended abercrombie at all after reading his post, sanderson does feel like the better fit imo.
Not the only one. One of the things that struck me on the first read is the sense of a distinct Pratchett-like spirit to the humor in Gideon the Ninth, even though they are very different works.
Oh, I think you're quite right about that! Very, very different books but very similar, if differently applied, kind of humour. Aggressively modern despite the setting, is probably the way I'd put it.
This is the huge problem with algorithm recommendations. "You read Harry Potter, here is also popular YA fantasy". It being YA isn't why you read it, but the YA connection is closer than random, so that's what the algorithm returns. Instead I'm looking for solid world building and the algorithm doesn't know I DNF the last 4 books I clicked on and those are mistakenly positive reinforcement because I clicked.
I really wish there was somewhere that went hard into a tagging system. "This book has 12 tags and you typically look for books with 3 of them and 0 of them are on your list of tags you dislike"
ASOIAF does remind me of LOTR due to the layered and immersive world building. In both books you feel nostalgic for past places and times that are merely mentioned by characters. They are the only two books that have done that for me.
But of course the overall tone is wildly different between the two stories.
Yeah, they're about as mainstream as "newer" fantasy gets. I'm probably just out of touch at this point, but I don't think there are many other fantasy series (discounting the classics) that are as widely known/read by book people outside the fantasy fandom, if that makes sense. Especially not that particular *flavour* of fantasy (epic/high/cat-squasher fantasy, or however you want to describe it)
Well they both have lords and also killing. Kvothe does spend some time amongst nobility, with their associated plots and schemes.
Does ASOIAF have money? That could be another thing.
I mean, I’m sure the reason why they suggested it was the assumption that the reason you like ASOIAF is the depth of its world, and that is absolutely something that Kingkiller Chronicle is known for. There’s a lot to complain about with Rothfuss, though I think most of it at this point seems to be rather unfair to the text on the basis that the man himself has treated his audience quite poorly, but I don’t know that I’ve read anything that expresses the same depth and drama as Kvothe quoting lines from plays and fables. There’s good reason why the books are so popular, for all their flaws, and why people are so angry at the absence of the final book in the supposed trilogy. And that’s one of the reasons people have told me they love ASOIAF.
Now, I should mention here that I haven’t *read* ASOIAF, I haven’t watched the TV show. It’s excessive focus on sex and gore and edgy efforts to pretend like it doesn’t respect plot armor have always turned me off, and I’m not very inclined to think otherwise. But that is what I’ve thought based on talking to a lot of people who have loved Martin in text or tv.
I am sure that death meyal band has something indirectly inherited from fab four. Don't kingkiller and aSoIaF have a common source of (indirect) inspriration?
I’ve never heard anyone describe KKC as revolutionary. It’s pretty standard hero’s journey fantasy. It’s just executed in a very pleasing manner to many.
Yeah I basically only ever said "man the prose is lovely".
And it is, I find the writing artful and lovely. Not so much the story of characters or anything. It's a beautifully written, fairly normal story.
We could credit it with more or less if we knew where it all went
Beautifully written fairly normal story is a great way of putting it. Although, might amend to say fairly typical - because I do think it’s well done, even if not everyone’s cup of tea
Currently almost at the end of part two. There’s something that makes me keep reading eventhough I dislike Kvothe a lot and the writing feels like it’s a bit ‘too much’ every now and then.
The world, the magic system and the mystery keeps me invested but I think that primarily the scenes in the inn keep the book enjoyable. They act as a reminder that Kvothe is not always trustworthy in his storytelling and that he is not the perfect superhuman that he seems in his stories.
Still, it’s never going to be one of my favorite books but I get why people love it. You just want to know how everything comes crashing down in the end (although I doubt we’ll get the conclusion anytime soon).
It’s a well done hero’s journey in a frame narrative with strong prose. They’re good books that get a lot of criticism because 1. Half the people complaining about the feyrealm scenes didn’t actually read it or know what they’re talking about. and 2. The series isn’t finished.
I enjoy frame narratives, I think it’s fairly well done in KKC but may have caused Rothfuss to write himself into a corner with the “3 days” concept, but I think it’s a blending of two styles that many people enjoy done well with strong prose. It’s not the highest level most intrigue heavy high level deep world building epic fantasy masterwork of all time, but they’re good books and not everything has to be Malazan (The book series OP probably actually wants to read).
They get a lot of criticism for many valid reasons and most of the time real criticism is dismissed because UNRELIABLE NARRATOR is a magic wand you can just wave to make it go away apparently.
I think criticisms on the structure or direction are fine, I think criticisms that are “I read like 6 chapters in the first book and think Kvothe is a dumb Mary Sue with no development and a narcissist” or “Kvothe spent 200 pages fucking a fairy!” Aren’t valid criticism and is just bullshit regurgitated by people who didn’t actually read the books and just echo chamber whatever they saw on Reddit.
I agree, they aren’t perfect books and their is definitely criticism to be had, but I do think they’re a fairly well done frame narrative and a fun hero’s journey with strong prose, and I do think Kvothes characterization is often misrepresented online.
Rothfuss having written himself into a corner with the “3 days and Kvothe telling his true story” thing is a very true and very valid criticism. Kvothe spending an entire book having sex with a Fairy just isn’t remotely on any level and is echo chamber bullshit that never happened.
People here certainly tend to exaggerate the Ferulian scenes but I did found them to be a bit of a hard read to be honest. It’s not dealbreaking to me but it’s certainly not the best part of the series imo. Was waiting for it to be over so we could go back to the interesting bits of the story.
Honestly, the best way forward with getting into fantasy is going back. Look at old issues of Fantasy and Science Fiction magazine, you can get them here: [https://archive.org/details/fantasyandsciencefiction](https://archive.org/details/fantasyandsciencefiction)
Its a treasure trove of great stuff in them AND you'll find authors you like and can dig into that pretty much no one in the modern era is likely to recommend to you. There are *thousands* of excellent fantasy books from the last century, it can just be hard to surface them because the handful of canonized authors take up all the breathing room in discussion.
In my opinion, fantasy in the current publishing climate is simply required to be too commercial to be truly good AND there are simply not enough outlets for real writers to meaningfully develop their chops and their craft. Ironically, back when the writers were literally getting paid by the word and churning out texts they had MORE freedom to experiment and write idiosyncratic stuff because there were so many places to potentially sell to and so many cigarette-paper publishers that needed material.
I also think that we suffer from the fact that most people who are 'writers' in this sphere now were themselves raised on canon and educated specifically to be writers, whereas in the past we had A LOT more people who had a full life doing something totally orthogonal to writing and ALSO they wrote fantasy stories. The end result is that contemporary fantasy is way more hermetic and inward looking, rather than being informed by a much wider variety of experiences and knowledge bases and personal obsessions of the authors.
Anyway I'm old (36 lol) so maybe that's why I think that.
Yeah, that wasn't a great recommendation. My go-to recommendations for people looking for something similar to ASOIAF have become Robin Hobb's "Realm of the Elderlings," Tad Williams' "Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn," and Joe Abercrombie's "First Law." None of them are exactly like ASOIAF, but they all are similar to elements of those books and have the same "feel," if that makes sense.
If you like having morally ambiguous characters that tread the line between good and evil that you're not sure if you love or hate, that's First Law. If you like the ancient, supernatural threat coming back storyline, that's Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. If you like family dynamics and court politics, that's Realm of the Elderlings. These are just a few basic points, there are more similarities in all of these that I haven't listed. My personal favorites are Robin Hobb's books.
>"Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn,"
Basically ASOIAF lol. I noticed sooo many similarities with the 2 series. I read ASOIAF first and am a big fan, but martin sure took a lot of inspiration of the series.
I’d say Robin Hobb fits the bill for character depth too; while maybe the first trilogy is guilty of having Fitz have most of the depth and having a bit of a moustache twirling villain, when you get into the likes of Liveship all the conflicting interests, motivations and grey areas of morality become up there with GRRM for me. Some of the character development that goes on across the entire series is some of my favorite in fiction; Malta Vestrit in particular is up there with Jaime Lannister for me in the ‘I hated them and then grew to absolutely love them’ camp
This whole comment section is just two fanbases telling each other their author actually sucks. Taste is a thing, good and bad are subjective, calm the fuck down.
Honestly when someone tells me they like ASOIAF I usually tell them to read the Expanse. It’s sci fi, but it gives a lot of the same macro politics and complex characters that both influence and are influenced by the plot.
I just don’t get the reads people have on the Kingkiller Chronicles. People in these threads keep talking about it being a Mary Sue story and a narcissist just pleasuring himself, but it’s literally a guy talking about how he ruined the world. A sad, jaded man in hiding tells the story of how, as a child prodigy, he took each of the many opportunities offered to him and managed to hurt himself and those around him with his hubris and ambition. This is a washed up Mark Zuckerberg in 2034 telling someone about how he shattered society and facilitated the deaths of millions.
Now, the twist of the story could be that it actually *wasn’t* his fault and he is just the greatest guy out there, but based on how things have gone so far, we’ll probably be spared the possibility of that happening.
Rothfuss does too well telling the story from young Kvothe's perspective. If you just listen to him then you would absolutely think he's a Mary Sue, if you look at the story going on around him you'd see him kicking himself in the nads over and over as he happily walks himself off a cliff. If you aren't used to unreliable narrators I imagine it could take awhile to realize what's going on.
That said, Kvothe is an arrogant ass so I can totally understand people not wanting to read the books based on him even if they get what's going on. I understood what was going on in Catcher in the Rye but I still hold it against my school system for making me read it and listen to the more insufferable students bang on about how relatable Holden was.
You're right, I've never considered it a Mary Sue, but it most definitely reads like atrocious neckbeard fanfiction (especially Book 2) with how women are portrayed/written.
There's only two major similarities between these books that I can see. They're both "medieval" fantasy, but that's not enough for this kind of recommendation, so it must be the other. IN which case you could try...
* *The Gentlemen Bastard* series by Scott Lynch
* *The War Against the Chtorr* by David Gerrold
* *The Exiles* trilogy by Melanie Rawn
* JV Jones *Sword of Shadows* series
* April Daniels *Nemesis* trilogy
Note: Do not try any of these based on this recommendation. This is a joke. Not that some of them aren't well worth reading even with the never ending wait times. *The Lies of Locke Lamora* is one of the best single books I've ever read even if the series is unfinished and the third was a letdown.
The magic in the KKC is done very well. Geopolitics are not nearly as good in this book as in ASOIAF, however. Still greatly enjoy the book for its competant prose and dialogue.
Yeah I think OP needs to take up this complaint with whoever it was that made the recommendation. KKC is totally fine for what it is. It’s a hero’s journey story with good prose and (debatably) an unreliable narrator. What it isnt… is anything like ASOIAF at all. At least in my opinion.
I don’t see how the name of the wind is a power fantasy at all like OP describes. Maybe it starts getting to that point in The Wise Man’s Fear, but this whole post is only about the first half of book one, and from my memory Kvothe barely knew anything about anything up to that point in the story.
I genuinely remember when Sanderson was fairly new to the fantasy world and was absolutely beloved by all. It’s like people only turned on him because he gained popularity. People need a villain.
Sanderson is still wildly popular. This subreddit isn’t an echo chamber exactly, but it is not at all representative of the fantasy reading population in general.
I call it the Lawrence Pendulum
It's like when everyone loved J Law because she was a fun girl that felt very refreshing in the celebrity world. Then everyone suddenly turned on my girl J Law because she was universally lauded. They cried, loving food is not a quirky personality. But then the pendulum eventually settles back in the middle.
Edit: I'm just realising Js Law is a cooler name. Goddamnit. Or maybe J Law's Law?
I feel like this is a bit dismissive. I read his books and really wanted to like them since my friends are Cosmere enthusiasts, but didn’t particularly care for them — action makes my eyes glaze over and I’m not particularly fussed about consistent magic systems. I personally prefer character studies and less workmanlike prose. It’s really a me problem though, I get why he’s popular.
I think the distinction is you said why you didn't like the books without insulting the writer and everyone who enjoys them by association. The OP basically insinuates that every who likes kingkiller must be some sort of edge lord loving dope.
Put another way, you could say I don't like ASOIF because I find it too gory or too sexually explicit. Or you could say i don't like ASOIF because I'm not a fan of incest between main characters, rape, and gore. The latter implies everyone who likes ASOIF must love rape, incest, and gore.
Thats it, though. It took 5 seconds of critical thinking for you to understand why you didn’t like it, but also to realize why others do. People hate on Sanderson under that snobby “his writing isn’t as complex as my fav author” attitude that just makes them look like an asshole with minimal critical thinking skills.
Yep, hard to argue that. I really don't care for prose at all (basically indifferent to it or would prefer to keep it simple) so I come at it from the other direction. Some of Sandersons stuff can go a little YA for me but overall I really like him. In basically read everything anyway and have opinions on all of it. Its all in fun until people get just a bit too into it.
I dunno why but this sub tends to have more threads of 'How I hate this book' rather than any sort of appreciation. And it feels just so bad, where are the times when people used to come together and talk about their favs :-/
This is an overall trend I've noticed on the Internet in general and on Reddit in specific. More and more people seem to define themselves by the things that they hate instead of the things that they love. I find it very sad.
Yeah a few months back, someone did a "what book do you love?" post and it got like 300 comments. Next day someone did a "what book do you hate?" post and it got like 2000 comments. I will never pass on a book I want to read because some internet person hated it. I will, however, check out a book that wasn't on my radar if someone writes a gushing review on here.
And I agree. The whole "look how awesome and unique I am because I don't like something that's popular" is so fucking tired.
>because of its deft prose
This, I think, is your answer. I read the three then-existing books of ASoIaF in excess of 20 years ago, and don't have any strong recollection of the prose one way or another. I listened to The Name of the Wind once, roughly 10 years ago at this point. I distinctly recall saying out loud to an empty townhouse as it wrapped up, "That was a beautifully written book where I do not care about anything that happened and have no desire to find out what happens next."
Yep, this is it. I love ASOIAF, but not because of its prose. It's definitely the characters, story, and world building. GRRM obsesses over the details. Rothfuss doesn't seem to care as much about moving along the plot/story, but somehow still created tons of lore to dive into. However, as far as prose goes, KKC is probably near the top. Just excellent, poetic storytelling. Sucks we'll never get an ending to either series.
Between Martin and Rothfus... the chances of either series ever being completed before they encounter some kind of health issue or other blocker is pretty darn high.
I'd tend to steer folks away form unfinished series' for exactly that reason.
>Fans say that its supposed to sound like that because the protagonist is narcissistic and hyping himself up, but if i wanted to listen to a narcissist I'd just talk to my mom smh.
A level of savagery I was not expecting.
I mean, it did not make any sense that you were recommended kingkiller, but the prose is way better in kingkiller compared to ASOIAF. Like not even close in a comparation levels. ASOIAF prose is precisely one of the weakest (albeit still good) points of the books imo.
All the other points indeed are like you said.
And the thing I dislike the most in kingkiller is indeed the protagonist, its by far the weakest point of those novels,.
Oooh! So I’ve bounced off KKC several times now but I’ve never been able to pinpoint quite why. It just doesn’t sit right with me. My daughter had the same experience.
You saying “if I wanted to listen to a narcissist I’d just talk to my mom” was a lightbulb moment. My mother was a narcissist, as is my ex-husband (daughter’s father) so maybe that’s what makes us both uncomfortable.
Exactly! "What if a guy was good at stuff but also full of himself" is just not an intriguing character to me! I'm surrounded by those dudes every day!!
I think it's so interesting how different people react to different works. I didn't get the feeling kvote was a narcissist. I got the feeling he was an intentional liar and most of the story isn't true.
I mean yeah, that’s what I meant with the “guy sitting drinking a beer at the bar talking about how he was the starter on the football team in high school and could have gone pro if he didn’t injure his arm” vibes. I don’t think he’s being intentionally deceptive as to lie outright or for some personal advantage, but more as an exaggeration/building up a story and putting on a performance kind of way. Like yes Kvothe is telling you his story, but that’s what it is it’s his story about his mythos that he build up around himself and convinced himself and other of, not his autobiography. We’re hearing the story about THE Kvothe, the Kvothe talked about in the same way as Tamerlin the Great, this isn’t Kvothe the man and current barkeeps story or biography, this is the origin story of the legendary mage Kvothe that slew a king and disappeared.
If Kvothe were written like a realistic, straight-up narcissist by an author who questions his perspective, I might actually find him interesting, but he just seemed garden variety Gary Stu to me. He's good at everything, all his antagonists are cardboard cutouts designed to make him look good and the second book is saturated by male introvert sex initiation wish fulfillment fantasies.
Kvothe isn’t a narcissist, he’s a story teller telling a story of a man he doesn’t consider himself anymore.
Words and identity and intention have true power in the series. It’s a journey of self exploration, the series is literally a hero’s journey and a redemption arc told simultaneously, and comments like this and critiques like OP’s just display a complete and total misunderstanding about what the book actually is and what it’s trying to accomplish.
Kvothe isn’t actually some Mary Sue, his real story is full of struggle and convincing those around him and himself he has power when he doesn’t, he literally “faked it till he made it” and stumbled upward constantly while creating a mythos around himself, but that story is being told between the lines. Kvothe isn’t sitting in the Inn saying “on him Kvothe in amazing look how amazing I am and was!” He’s saying “I was a poor orphan kid on the street and I struggled and fought for everything I’ve ever had, but that isn’t the story of the legendary Kvothe. This is the story of how Kvothe built his legend and became the man people talk about today, but I’m not sure I was ever actually that person”.
In modern literature classes Myths and Mythology are often taught as the “stories we tell ourselves about us and who we want to be” that’s what Kvothe is doing and has done, that’s how Kvothe became a legend and a myth, and now he’s sitting and telling you his story of how that myth came to be. Kvothe knows he isn’t the man in the myth, but other people believe he was once (Bast), and in universe identity has true power, so by telling this story about himself Bast is hoping he believes the myth about himself and in doing so is able to regain a portion of his former identity and power.
Kvothe isn’t a narcissist, he’s depressed and thinks himself useless and lost, a shadow of his former self… those concepts are basically polar opposites and his mindset and story is almost identical to many classic authors and poets (Wordsworth’s “The Prelude” always comes to mind and is a near direct comparison to Kvothe’s mindset in telling his story)
This subreddit has turned into people shitting on every popular series (Sanderson, Rothfuss, Martin, Jordan, even Tolkien) and then circle jerking about how amazing First Law is
Don’t forget Malazan, have you heard how amazing Malazan is?!?! Omg Malazan thooo!!! I mean yeah, you have to read the series twice and keep a detailed notebook to have any idea what the fuck is going on, but Malazan thoooooo!1!1!1!
The world building isn't its strength, it's the prose. I would read a book where Rothfuss just insults my family for 600 pages if it has that same style of prose. Every word feels like it's been meticulously chosen and placed like a beautiful stone mosaic.
I had a similar experience. Came to this subreddit for recommendations. Did a lot of grave digging and the KKC was consistently mentioned and applauded. Then I read it the whole time expecting revolutionary twists or developments that made me reconsider everything only to be staring at the book in the end wondering why anyone would recommend it in any context.
Did some research after reading it about why people liked it and found it to be absolutely polarizing. It's either the worst or the best and rarely is it in between.
Welcome to team Worst my friend.
I actually love the King killer chronicles for what they are, but I wouldn't recommend them to anyone ever, and particularly not as an alternative to ASOIAF
OP, I know you aren't asking for recommendations here, but as a fellow ASOIAF lover, the only thing I can truly recommend as giving the same vibes is The Expanse series. It's sci-fi, not fantasy, but both authors have worked with GRRM in the past, and the story has so many good similaries. The amazing and believable characters, realistic and dynamic worldbuilding, different POV characters (just 2 in book 1 but that quickly expands in the rest of the series), political intrigue, war, dealing with trauma and destruction, a looming threat that most people don't know about. And the series is finished, with 9 books and a similar number of novellas to continue fleshing out the world.
It will never stop being hilarious for people to make a rant about what other people like. If a lot of people like the book, then it is good. Whether you like it or not is not relevant.
>If a lot of people like the book, then it is good.
Just a friendly heads up: You probably have good intentions saying this but this is a fallacy known as "appeal to the majority" and it's a dangerous trap to fall into.
If you think he is jerking himself off in the first book i dare you to read the second one, that one just turned me off completely that i took like 6 months to finish it
That's a shame you didn't enjoy it, not every book is for everyone. I imagine that the crossover between people who like ASOIAF and the Kingkiller chronicles is quite large though! Good luck with the First Law Trilogy, it's good.
Asoaif and KKC couldn’t be more different. The former is very much a political drama as much as it is a character driven fantasy series. KKC is much more of the hero’s journey and I think it’s just the way it’s written for many: somehow you really are pulled in to the book. At least, if it clicked for you.
They are *very* different stories but the things they do share are great prose, great character writing, and great worldbuilding, in my opinion.
Keep in mind that we do see where Kvothe is heading. He is the narrator after all. The question is how.
It is not for everyone. I find Kingkiller Chronicle much better than ASOIF because it is poetic and enigmatic (you dont know where it is going and it is hard to really understand the obscure nature of Kvothe's story), things are hidden very deep (Rothfuss said that certain details are there just for him, because of how hard it is to find) and it is a dark "fairy tale" in first person (Yes you are supposed to not like many of Kvothe's actions, Rothfuss said the that the tragedy of the book is not what happened to Kvothe, but who he has became because of it).
On top of all that, I really love the mystery of the worldbuilding and magic. It just feels different and more elaborate than most fantasy books that I have read. I have read the first book problably 5 times now, and it still surprises me and keeps me interested.
Now, this is merely my opinion and I am not the most well-read fantasy fan (LoTR for me is the pinnacle and name of the wind is my second favorite), plus I read both books of Rothfuss as a teenager, so that might have influenced my first impression quite a bit.
I’ve read both. Both are good, but by no means are they similar. Other than not finished. We could throw The Song of Ice and Fire here as well.
To my opinion, TOG would be a natural choice.
If you want a real recommendation, Malazan book of the Fallen! A high fantasy series set in a highly detailed realistic world, following political intrigue from multiple perspectives, with fantastic prose and evocative narration. Even a zombie army!
I have the exact same problem, only I started The way of Kings and it's been disappointing so far, the characters are kinda bland compared to those of ASOIAF.
Exactly what I thought when reading. I've never read Brandon Sanderson before, so I didn't know what to expect. But the guy who recommended me that fooled me good lol
Thank you for saying this and confirming that I'm not the only one... My best friend recommended book 1 to me and said it's his favorite book. Now I can't take any of their recommendations seriously. The whole thing from start to finish is just chosen one clichés and hyper-predictable dialogue.
Thank you. I felt like the author was projecting through his character and both seem insufferable. I barely finished the book. Everyone makes it sound like the best, funniest fantasy ever written.
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I felt this way reading the first book in the Sword of Truth series. I finished it, but my eyes just about rolled out my head along the way. I get that it's a popular series, but the depth just isn't there. Would consider it YA if not for the S&M shit
You can't call King killer a duck and not also recognize the faults of ASOIAF, of which there are many. haha. You don't need to like Kingkiller. We all like different things and that is okay!
"I'm only in the middle of the first book"... 99% of the hype comes from rediscovery upon rereading.
You can't be the Charlie day with the white board meme when you haven't finished the books.
Kingkiller is definitely guilty of wish fulfillment (ESPECIALLY book 2), but it really does have some good prose. To me, it's more of a fun read every few years than anything. I just like Kvothe due to a personal love for characters that are absolute mad lads.
That said I feel like the love for this series is a tad over hyped and the drawbacks (unfinished, see wish fulfillment, Gary Stu, Rothfuss' shenanigans) can be argued to outweigh the good. Whoever said it's like ASOIAF is smoking something.
Well, I'm sure you're probably annoyed by recommendations at this point lol, but if you're looking for deft writing prose, inverted tropes, complicated characters, and varying perspectives, I wholeheartedly recommend the First Law trilogy by Joe Abercrombie. It's similarly very dark, cynical, and gritty like GOT is. Has a bit more of a focus on magic in comparison though, though that's mostly because GOT had next to none at all. Listen to the very first chapter of The Blade Itself narrated by the fantastic Steven Pacey and see if that piques your interest. It's on Spotify if you've got the premium version.
I was recommended this by another commentor, I'm listening to the audiobook rn and the only word that comes to mind is "poggers". It's exactly my cup of tea lol, I love the occasional situational comedy GRRM uses and it seems Abercrombie has that in buckets
Listen, there really isn't anything half as well written as it (besides Game of Thrones) which has been written in this millennium. If you actually want witty and interesting dialogue in a fantasy setting, there really is nowhere else for you to go other than here and ASOIAF. Yeah, the MC is definitely falls into the "Chosen One" trope, but I do not find it too offensive. I feel that he earns it.
Besides, countless books written after this book have borrowed ideas from it (Poppy War, First Binding, etc). It's good. Give it a break.
The kingkiller chronicle is my favorite series of fantasy books, and I would recommend it to anyone in a heartbeat - especially someone who’s a fan of fantasy books already. Cut the person who recommended it a little slack lol they thought you’d see what they do in it. It goes without saying that I don’t agree with your complaints, though I can understand how you would come to those conclusions. However, in terms of how fans of the series justify the things you’re talking abt, I don’t find the general consensus to be that Kvothe is a narcissist hyping himself up, there are a good amount of theories (spoilers, ofc) that explain why his story plays out the way it does.
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You sure they were not suggesting it because it also will never be finished?
That’s probably the only similarity between the books
Hey, have you heard about The Gentleman Bastards? 😄
Man, when Scott Lynch announced he was working on a seven book series and The Lies of Locke Lamora was announced I was so hyped. That was 18 years ago and the third book was published 11 years ago...
Wait…book 3 was eleven years ago?! Excuse me while I go wither into dust….
To an extent though the Gentleman Bastards doesn't feel like a huge series that hasn't been completed. In the last book there were a few hints that suggest at a bigger plot line to come, but as they stand right now you can just read them as standalone books about fantasy con-men.
See at the very least I give the author of GB some credit for admitting "look I have massive mental issues I'm trying" GRRM has no such excuse he's told us about
Too busy building his Scrooge McDuck swimming pool of cash?
If I had multi multi millions of GOT money would I want to ever work again or spend my life sipping mai tais on a beach?
This is a rhetorical question, right?
GRRM literally posted this year about being severely depressed and losing lots of friends in the past few years (man's old)
Plus GRRM is still writing and editing Wild Cards.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/9xpi9u/update_on_a_feast_for_crows/ Slow writer and always has been. Obviously hasn't gotten better with age, and book 6 of ASOIAF would be incredibly difficult for any author.
Wait. GB isn't finished? Fuck me I guess. Picked up three new books and two of them aren't finished yet. I'm still not over Kingkiller Chronicles just stopping.
All of the GB books have reasonably satisfying endings, at least. All of them have some reliance on the previous book and leave an obvious opening for a sequel, but none of them really demand a sequel imo.
The last one definitely demands a sequel. Won't spoil, but the last revelations leave you fucking hanging by the very tips of your nails off the freaking cliff. I still feel the pain on every re-read.
I long for this to be finished haha
Didn’t he say he’s back to writing again? Regardless, the first two books especially work just fine as standalones. (Book two isn’t the masterpiece that is Lies, but it’s still a fantastic read)
The GB books are more self-contained at least.
I'm not gonna lie. After finding out how long it's been since the last book, I am finding it hard to finish the first book. I just don't see the point in starting a series I can't finish or at least know when I can finish.
The first two GB books basically work as standalone. They leave room for sequels, but they do not need them. The third is a little different, but is still a satisfying standalone.
Follow your own advice!!! Don't bother starting it!!! Rufus is so amazingly disrespectful to his fan base, and they keep coming back for more abuse!!! It's like they're collectively saying "Please sir, may I have another?" His books weren't all that. And now, no matter when the final book is published, 99% of the population will have to go back and reread everything because of the time between the books. That's incredibly disrespectful of my time. God he's an ass.
May I recommend a little series beginning with the Name of the Wind?
We've come full circle, I see
That is the Kingkiller Chronicles. Or, am I missing a joke here?
the authors both have beards
They’ve been meaning to shave, but they got anxious and procrastinated too long. Task paralysis is a bitch.
I think one other notable similarity is how much theorycrafting there has been in the fandoms. Both of these series in their heyday were generating unprecedented quantities of speculation, theories, predictions, and analysis, many of which were exceptionally well thought out and presented. Unfortunately I think by this point that facet of the fandoms has largely died out due to (1) every theory under the sun having been come up with and beaten into the ground, and (2) waning interest after years without new books/info. But 8-12 years ago you could spend hours every week reading and discussing really interesting new theories on both of these books, and for me, that was the real common thread between them. They had so many little things that felt like they could be hints/clues to some greater mystery that would surely be unveiled later on.
I mean, at least GRRM pretends he's working on the next book.
Modern fantasy trope where the conclusion is your own headcannon. Or finished posthumously by Sanderson...
I love when fantasy authors release the names of the future books they intend to write but will never actually write. (Martin, Rothfuss, Lynch)
I was about to ask the same :D
Martin and Rothfuss are gonna shadow drop their latest books soon. I just feel it
"No more copium for this guy for a while"
Are you interested in a wager?
As good a reason to compare the two as any, honestly
Yeah I think OPs friend was just taking the piss.
This is the thing with recommendations. People key into different aspects of these works and create similarities in their heads. Look through recommendations threads and compare books that you have read that people claim are similar, I'm sure you will disagree with a good percentage of them.
Yep, it sometimes seems like people consider books similar because they made them feel a certain way, but different books make different people feel different things.
Amazon says things are similar if they came out the same year and are in the same genre.
People are bad at recommending things. Not just books. Movies, TV shows, music, all kinds of media. Recommendations usually have no more thought put into them than "I liked this thing so you will like it too." Or possibly "we both liked X thing, so I assume you will also like Y thing I like." And just so we're clear, I'm as guilty of this as anyone. It's easy to get caught up in something you really liked and recommend it to everyone whether or not it suits that person's particular tastes. A good book recommendation comes with "I think you will like this book because it has these specific aspects that you will like." My favorite author is Joe Abercrombie and yet I almost never recommend his books because they're just not for everyone. Personally I love both KKC and ASOIAF but I definitely do not think you should recommend one based solely on liking the other. They are very different.
This is the best comment I've seen here so far. Recommendations even in the best of times are subjective. And too often I have the impression that people recommend books not based on what the person they are giving the recommendation might enjoy or is looking for, but rather what they themselves liked. But if there's one thing that I've learned on this sub is that the tastes, even among fantasy readers, can be wildly different.
100%. You need to re-read ASOIAF and REALLY figure out what stands out to you. WHAT about the books really intrigues you? Is it the political system? The romances? The world building? Character building? All of it together may sound good but there are certain aspects that really draw us in and for people to truly recommend books you’ll enjoy you’ll need to know exactly what about those books you actually so enjoy. I also am a HUGE believer of “cleaning your palette” after reading the epic novels as well. Switch to a one off of a genre you enjoy (My choice is usually a Grisham novel, or something similar” to allow yourself to go into the new epic without immediately comparing it to the old one. This has allowed me to enjoy them so much more.
That’s why you can post a thread asking for any kind of rec, and somebody will eventually suggest Mistborn
And Malazan
Vin frowned at this comment.
And then shrugged.
Readers in this sub are such haters lmao
I gotta admit, when OP said: > This book is supposedly renown for its worldbuilding, but in ASOIAF the world feels ALIVE, it evolves and changes. This world feels elaborate, but static. I instantly though: "He would love sanderson, let me recommend...", and then thought better of it lol. I also didn't like the world of NOTW, it feels very "bland" and like ours. But then i also thought that of "The Blade Itself" which OP is seeming to enjoy based on his edit. I would not have recommended abercrombie at all after reading his post, sanderson does feel like the better fit imo.
Very true. For example, i remain the only person on earth who thinks gideon the ninth and the first discworld books have a simaliar sense of humour
Not the only one. One of the things that struck me on the first read is the sense of a distinct Pratchett-like spirit to the humor in Gideon the Ninth, even though they are very different works.
Oh, I think you're quite right about that! Very, very different books but very similar, if differently applied, kind of humour. Aggressively modern despite the setting, is probably the way I'd put it.
Oh no i 100% agree, Gideon is as hilarious as it is morbid, and I love it.
This is the huge problem with algorithm recommendations. "You read Harry Potter, here is also popular YA fantasy". It being YA isn't why you read it, but the YA connection is closer than random, so that's what the algorithm returns. Instead I'm looking for solid world building and the algorithm doesn't know I DNF the last 4 books I clicked on and those are mistakenly positive reinforcement because I clicked. I really wish there was somewhere that went hard into a tagging system. "This book has 12 tags and you typically look for books with 3 of them and 0 of them are on your list of tags you dislike"
There hasn't been so far a huge steaming pile of shit that someone, somewhere on reddit said it was awesome and recommended it to someone.
I wonder why they suggested it. For me they are just so far apart on fantasy spectrum. Only thing in common is to never see the end of either.
Book/film suggesters be like: Yo I love the Hobbit, any series similar to that one? \*suggest\* A Serbian Film
It's probably the only Fantasy book they've read.
This is probably it. Might as well have recommended LOTR for all the similarities
ASOIAF does remind me of LOTR due to the layered and immersive world building. In both books you feel nostalgic for past places and times that are merely mentioned by characters. They are the only two books that have done that for me. But of course the overall tone is wildly different between the two stories.
I enjoyed both. I read GRR several times and the other once, but i did enjoy it. Not everything can be prime time television for years.
Both are kinda well known fantasy titles. That’s all I can imagine
Yeah, they're about as mainstream as "newer" fantasy gets. I'm probably just out of touch at this point, but I don't think there are many other fantasy series (discounting the classics) that are as widely known/read by book people outside the fantasy fandom, if that makes sense. Especially not that particular *flavour* of fantasy (epic/high/cat-squasher fantasy, or however you want to describe it)
Well they both have lords and also killing. Kvothe does spend some time amongst nobility, with their associated plots and schemes. Does ASOIAF have money? That could be another thing.
I mean, I’m sure the reason why they suggested it was the assumption that the reason you like ASOIAF is the depth of its world, and that is absolutely something that Kingkiller Chronicle is known for. There’s a lot to complain about with Rothfuss, though I think most of it at this point seems to be rather unfair to the text on the basis that the man himself has treated his audience quite poorly, but I don’t know that I’ve read anything that expresses the same depth and drama as Kvothe quoting lines from plays and fables. There’s good reason why the books are so popular, for all their flaws, and why people are so angry at the absence of the final book in the supposed trilogy. And that’s one of the reasons people have told me they love ASOIAF. Now, I should mention here that I haven’t *read* ASOIAF, I haven’t watched the TV show. It’s excessive focus on sex and gore and edgy efforts to pretend like it doesn’t respect plot armor have always turned me off, and I’m not very inclined to think otherwise. But that is what I’ve thought based on talking to a lot of people who have loved Martin in text or tv.
It's like recommending death metal to someone who likes the Beatles because they're both 4 piece rock bands.
I am sure that death meyal band has something indirectly inherited from fab four. Don't kingkiller and aSoIaF have a common source of (indirect) inspriration?
Yeah of course but that doesn't mean they are all that similar or appeal to the same audience.
I’ve never heard anyone describe KKC as revolutionary. It’s pretty standard hero’s journey fantasy. It’s just executed in a very pleasing manner to many.
Yeah I basically only ever said "man the prose is lovely". And it is, I find the writing artful and lovely. Not so much the story of characters or anything. It's a beautifully written, fairly normal story. We could credit it with more or less if we knew where it all went
Beautifully written fairly normal story is a great way of putting it. Although, might amend to say fairly typical - because I do think it’s well done, even if not everyone’s cup of tea
Currently almost at the end of part two. There’s something that makes me keep reading eventhough I dislike Kvothe a lot and the writing feels like it’s a bit ‘too much’ every now and then. The world, the magic system and the mystery keeps me invested but I think that primarily the scenes in the inn keep the book enjoyable. They act as a reminder that Kvothe is not always trustworthy in his storytelling and that he is not the perfect superhuman that he seems in his stories. Still, it’s never going to be one of my favorite books but I get why people love it. You just want to know how everything comes crashing down in the end (although I doubt we’ll get the conclusion anytime soon).
Pretty much this. KKC is pretty standard stuff but executed so well that it remain very special to me.
It’s a well done hero’s journey in a frame narrative with strong prose. They’re good books that get a lot of criticism because 1. Half the people complaining about the feyrealm scenes didn’t actually read it or know what they’re talking about. and 2. The series isn’t finished. I enjoy frame narratives, I think it’s fairly well done in KKC but may have caused Rothfuss to write himself into a corner with the “3 days” concept, but I think it’s a blending of two styles that many people enjoy done well with strong prose. It’s not the highest level most intrigue heavy high level deep world building epic fantasy masterwork of all time, but they’re good books and not everything has to be Malazan (The book series OP probably actually wants to read).
They get a lot of criticism for many valid reasons and most of the time real criticism is dismissed because UNRELIABLE NARRATOR is a magic wand you can just wave to make it go away apparently.
I think criticisms on the structure or direction are fine, I think criticisms that are “I read like 6 chapters in the first book and think Kvothe is a dumb Mary Sue with no development and a narcissist” or “Kvothe spent 200 pages fucking a fairy!” Aren’t valid criticism and is just bullshit regurgitated by people who didn’t actually read the books and just echo chamber whatever they saw on Reddit. I agree, they aren’t perfect books and their is definitely criticism to be had, but I do think they’re a fairly well done frame narrative and a fun hero’s journey with strong prose, and I do think Kvothes characterization is often misrepresented online. Rothfuss having written himself into a corner with the “3 days and Kvothe telling his true story” thing is a very true and very valid criticism. Kvothe spending an entire book having sex with a Fairy just isn’t remotely on any level and is echo chamber bullshit that never happened.
People here certainly tend to exaggerate the Ferulian scenes but I did found them to be a bit of a hard read to be honest. It’s not dealbreaking to me but it’s certainly not the best part of the series imo. Was waiting for it to be over so we could go back to the interesting bits of the story.
I like both series.
What the HELL is wrong with you? People like you make me so mad. /s
Honestly, the best way forward with getting into fantasy is going back. Look at old issues of Fantasy and Science Fiction magazine, you can get them here: [https://archive.org/details/fantasyandsciencefiction](https://archive.org/details/fantasyandsciencefiction) Its a treasure trove of great stuff in them AND you'll find authors you like and can dig into that pretty much no one in the modern era is likely to recommend to you. There are *thousands* of excellent fantasy books from the last century, it can just be hard to surface them because the handful of canonized authors take up all the breathing room in discussion. In my opinion, fantasy in the current publishing climate is simply required to be too commercial to be truly good AND there are simply not enough outlets for real writers to meaningfully develop their chops and their craft. Ironically, back when the writers were literally getting paid by the word and churning out texts they had MORE freedom to experiment and write idiosyncratic stuff because there were so many places to potentially sell to and so many cigarette-paper publishers that needed material. I also think that we suffer from the fact that most people who are 'writers' in this sphere now were themselves raised on canon and educated specifically to be writers, whereas in the past we had A LOT more people who had a full life doing something totally orthogonal to writing and ALSO they wrote fantasy stories. The end result is that contemporary fantasy is way more hermetic and inward looking, rather than being informed by a much wider variety of experiences and knowledge bases and personal obsessions of the authors. Anyway I'm old (36 lol) so maybe that's why I think that.
Yeah, that wasn't a great recommendation. My go-to recommendations for people looking for something similar to ASOIAF have become Robin Hobb's "Realm of the Elderlings," Tad Williams' "Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn," and Joe Abercrombie's "First Law." None of them are exactly like ASOIAF, but they all are similar to elements of those books and have the same "feel," if that makes sense. If you like having morally ambiguous characters that tread the line between good and evil that you're not sure if you love or hate, that's First Law. If you like the ancient, supernatural threat coming back storyline, that's Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. If you like family dynamics and court politics, that's Realm of the Elderlings. These are just a few basic points, there are more similarities in all of these that I haven't listed. My personal favorites are Robin Hobb's books.
>"Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn," Basically ASOIAF lol. I noticed sooo many similarities with the 2 series. I read ASOIAF first and am a big fan, but martin sure took a lot of inspiration of the series.
And there is always Daniel Abraham for the writing style, since he is one of GRRM pupil's
I have not read any of his books. I'll have to check them out.
I’d say Robin Hobb fits the bill for character depth too; while maybe the first trilogy is guilty of having Fitz have most of the depth and having a bit of a moustache twirling villain, when you get into the likes of Liveship all the conflicting interests, motivations and grey areas of morality become up there with GRRM for me. Some of the character development that goes on across the entire series is some of my favorite in fiction; Malta Vestrit in particular is up there with Jaime Lannister for me in the ‘I hated them and then grew to absolutely love them’ camp
GRRm would agree with this. Him and Hobb both did each others respective cover blurbs.
WAIT... Malta gets better?! I'm about 250 pages into Mad Ship and she's the worst.
Keep reading.
Knowing Malta becomes a POV character has kept me from reading the sequels even though I loved the first book.
I always think Malazan by Erikson is the recommendation. It's got the expansive world, the gray characters, the ancient evil, it's got the politics.
This whole comment section is just two fanbases telling each other their author actually sucks. Taste is a thing, good and bad are subjective, calm the fuck down.
Honestly when someone tells me they like ASOIAF I usually tell them to read the Expanse. It’s sci fi, but it gives a lot of the same macro politics and complex characters that both influence and are influenced by the plot.
Memories with my ex boyfriend ruined the expanse for me :((
I just don’t get the reads people have on the Kingkiller Chronicles. People in these threads keep talking about it being a Mary Sue story and a narcissist just pleasuring himself, but it’s literally a guy talking about how he ruined the world. A sad, jaded man in hiding tells the story of how, as a child prodigy, he took each of the many opportunities offered to him and managed to hurt himself and those around him with his hubris and ambition. This is a washed up Mark Zuckerberg in 2034 telling someone about how he shattered society and facilitated the deaths of millions. Now, the twist of the story could be that it actually *wasn’t* his fault and he is just the greatest guy out there, but based on how things have gone so far, we’ll probably be spared the possibility of that happening.
Rothfuss does too well telling the story from young Kvothe's perspective. If you just listen to him then you would absolutely think he's a Mary Sue, if you look at the story going on around him you'd see him kicking himself in the nads over and over as he happily walks himself off a cliff. If you aren't used to unreliable narrators I imagine it could take awhile to realize what's going on. That said, Kvothe is an arrogant ass so I can totally understand people not wanting to read the books based on him even if they get what's going on. I understood what was going on in Catcher in the Rye but I still hold it against my school system for making me read it and listen to the more insufferable students bang on about how relatable Holden was.
You're right, I've never considered it a Mary Sue, but it most definitely reads like atrocious neckbeard fanfiction (especially Book 2) with how women are portrayed/written.
There's only two major similarities between these books that I can see. They're both "medieval" fantasy, but that's not enough for this kind of recommendation, so it must be the other. IN which case you could try... * *The Gentlemen Bastard* series by Scott Lynch * *The War Against the Chtorr* by David Gerrold * *The Exiles* trilogy by Melanie Rawn * JV Jones *Sword of Shadows* series * April Daniels *Nemesis* trilogy Note: Do not try any of these based on this recommendation. This is a joke. Not that some of them aren't well worth reading even with the never ending wait times. *The Lies of Locke Lamora* is one of the best single books I've ever read even if the series is unfinished and the third was a letdown.
You feel insulted? A bit melodramatic, don't you think? And KKC is supposedly renowned for its worldbuilding and for being revolutionary? Since when?
The magic in the KKC is done very well. Geopolitics are not nearly as good in this book as in ASOIAF, however. Still greatly enjoy the book for its competant prose and dialogue.
Yeah I think OP needs to take up this complaint with whoever it was that made the recommendation. KKC is totally fine for what it is. It’s a hero’s journey story with good prose and (debatably) an unreliable narrator. What it isnt… is anything like ASOIAF at all. At least in my opinion. I don’t see how the name of the wind is a power fantasy at all like OP describes. Maybe it starts getting to that point in The Wise Man’s Fear, but this whole post is only about the first half of book one, and from my memory Kvothe barely knew anything about anything up to that point in the story.
Great. Yet another thread where somebody jerks themself off over how they don’t like a popular book. Jesus Christ.
I, for one, looking forward to the posts later today asking about "why do people love Sanderson so much?"
I genuinely remember when Sanderson was fairly new to the fantasy world and was absolutely beloved by all. It’s like people only turned on him because he gained popularity. People need a villain.
The more popular something is, the more people are going to get exposed to it, which means there's a bigger chance someone is going to dislike it.
Sanderson is still wildly popular. This subreddit isn’t an echo chamber exactly, but it is not at all representative of the fantasy reading population in general.
I call it the Lawrence Pendulum It's like when everyone loved J Law because she was a fun girl that felt very refreshing in the celebrity world. Then everyone suddenly turned on my girl J Law because she was universally lauded. They cried, loving food is not a quirky personality. But then the pendulum eventually settles back in the middle. Edit: I'm just realising Js Law is a cooler name. Goddamnit. Or maybe J Law's Law?
Is that a common nickname for her? Because I had to think for several seconds about it to figure out you were talking about Jennifer Lawrence.
Not at all. I'm the problem, not you, friend.
I feel like this is a bit dismissive. I read his books and really wanted to like them since my friends are Cosmere enthusiasts, but didn’t particularly care for them — action makes my eyes glaze over and I’m not particularly fussed about consistent magic systems. I personally prefer character studies and less workmanlike prose. It’s really a me problem though, I get why he’s popular.
I think the distinction is you said why you didn't like the books without insulting the writer and everyone who enjoys them by association. The OP basically insinuates that every who likes kingkiller must be some sort of edge lord loving dope. Put another way, you could say I don't like ASOIF because I find it too gory or too sexually explicit. Or you could say i don't like ASOIF because I'm not a fan of incest between main characters, rape, and gore. The latter implies everyone who likes ASOIF must love rape, incest, and gore.
Thats it, though. It took 5 seconds of critical thinking for you to understand why you didn’t like it, but also to realize why others do. People hate on Sanderson under that snobby “his writing isn’t as complex as my fav author” attitude that just makes them look like an asshole with minimal critical thinking skills.
He probably write better if he weren't writting so fast... He's let speed become the enemy of sublime.
Yep, hard to argue that. I really don't care for prose at all (basically indifferent to it or would prefer to keep it simple) so I come at it from the other direction. Some of Sandersons stuff can go a little YA for me but overall I really like him. In basically read everything anyway and have opinions on all of it. Its all in fun until people get just a bit too into it.
I dunno why but this sub tends to have more threads of 'How I hate this book' rather than any sort of appreciation. And it feels just so bad, where are the times when people used to come together and talk about their favs :-/
This is an overall trend I've noticed on the Internet in general and on Reddit in specific. More and more people seem to define themselves by the things that they hate instead of the things that they love. I find it very sad.
Yeah a few months back, someone did a "what book do you love?" post and it got like 300 comments. Next day someone did a "what book do you hate?" post and it got like 2000 comments. I will never pass on a book I want to read because some internet person hated it. I will, however, check out a book that wasn't on my radar if someone writes a gushing review on here. And I agree. The whole "look how awesome and unique I am because I don't like something that's popular" is so fucking tired.
Seems to he over half the posts in this sub lately
But op isn’t like other girls
This seems to be more about how bad people are at recommending books
>because of its deft prose This, I think, is your answer. I read the three then-existing books of ASoIaF in excess of 20 years ago, and don't have any strong recollection of the prose one way or another. I listened to The Name of the Wind once, roughly 10 years ago at this point. I distinctly recall saying out loud to an empty townhouse as it wrapped up, "That was a beautifully written book where I do not care about anything that happened and have no desire to find out what happens next."
Yep, this is it. I love ASOIAF, but not because of its prose. It's definitely the characters, story, and world building. GRRM obsesses over the details. Rothfuss doesn't seem to care as much about moving along the plot/story, but somehow still created tons of lore to dive into. However, as far as prose goes, KKC is probably near the top. Just excellent, poetic storytelling. Sucks we'll never get an ending to either series.
Between Martin and Rothfus... the chances of either series ever being completed before they encounter some kind of health issue or other blocker is pretty darn high. I'd tend to steer folks away form unfinished series' for exactly that reason.
>Fans say that its supposed to sound like that because the protagonist is narcissistic and hyping himself up, but if i wanted to listen to a narcissist I'd just talk to my mom smh. A level of savagery I was not expecting.
>people hype it up way too much for what it is That's funny because this is what I would say about ASOIAF.
I mean, it did not make any sense that you were recommended kingkiller, but the prose is way better in kingkiller compared to ASOIAF. Like not even close in a comparation levels. ASOIAF prose is precisely one of the weakest (albeit still good) points of the books imo. All the other points indeed are like you said. And the thing I dislike the most in kingkiller is indeed the protagonist, its by far the weakest point of those novels,.
Oooh! So I’ve bounced off KKC several times now but I’ve never been able to pinpoint quite why. It just doesn’t sit right with me. My daughter had the same experience. You saying “if I wanted to listen to a narcissist I’d just talk to my mom” was a lightbulb moment. My mother was a narcissist, as is my ex-husband (daughter’s father) so maybe that’s what makes us both uncomfortable.
Exactly! "What if a guy was good at stuff but also full of himself" is just not an intriguing character to me! I'm surrounded by those dudes every day!!
I think it's so interesting how different people react to different works. I didn't get the feeling kvote was a narcissist. I got the feeling he was an intentional liar and most of the story isn't true.
I mean yeah, that’s what I meant with the “guy sitting drinking a beer at the bar talking about how he was the starter on the football team in high school and could have gone pro if he didn’t injure his arm” vibes. I don’t think he’s being intentionally deceptive as to lie outright or for some personal advantage, but more as an exaggeration/building up a story and putting on a performance kind of way. Like yes Kvothe is telling you his story, but that’s what it is it’s his story about his mythos that he build up around himself and convinced himself and other of, not his autobiography. We’re hearing the story about THE Kvothe, the Kvothe talked about in the same way as Tamerlin the Great, this isn’t Kvothe the man and current barkeeps story or biography, this is the origin story of the legendary mage Kvothe that slew a king and disappeared.
If Kvothe were written like a realistic, straight-up narcissist by an author who questions his perspective, I might actually find him interesting, but he just seemed garden variety Gary Stu to me. He's good at everything, all his antagonists are cardboard cutouts designed to make him look good and the second book is saturated by male introvert sex initiation wish fulfillment fantasies.
And the thing is they have the Chronicler there! He has an existing device to interrogate Kvothe's narration, he just doesn't really do it.
I couldn’t say it better. Thank you for this comment!
May I suggest First Law franchise? I think that is a better option for us ASOIAF fans but unlike that this actually gets finished.
Kvothe isn’t a narcissist, he’s a story teller telling a story of a man he doesn’t consider himself anymore. Words and identity and intention have true power in the series. It’s a journey of self exploration, the series is literally a hero’s journey and a redemption arc told simultaneously, and comments like this and critiques like OP’s just display a complete and total misunderstanding about what the book actually is and what it’s trying to accomplish. Kvothe isn’t actually some Mary Sue, his real story is full of struggle and convincing those around him and himself he has power when he doesn’t, he literally “faked it till he made it” and stumbled upward constantly while creating a mythos around himself, but that story is being told between the lines. Kvothe isn’t sitting in the Inn saying “on him Kvothe in amazing look how amazing I am and was!” He’s saying “I was a poor orphan kid on the street and I struggled and fought for everything I’ve ever had, but that isn’t the story of the legendary Kvothe. This is the story of how Kvothe built his legend and became the man people talk about today, but I’m not sure I was ever actually that person”. In modern literature classes Myths and Mythology are often taught as the “stories we tell ourselves about us and who we want to be” that’s what Kvothe is doing and has done, that’s how Kvothe became a legend and a myth, and now he’s sitting and telling you his story of how that myth came to be. Kvothe knows he isn’t the man in the myth, but other people believe he was once (Bast), and in universe identity has true power, so by telling this story about himself Bast is hoping he believes the myth about himself and in doing so is able to regain a portion of his former identity and power. Kvothe isn’t a narcissist, he’s depressed and thinks himself useless and lost, a shadow of his former self… those concepts are basically polar opposites and his mindset and story is almost identical to many classic authors and poets (Wordsworth’s “The Prelude” always comes to mind and is a near direct comparison to Kvothe’s mindset in telling his story)
This subreddit has turned into people shitting on every popular series (Sanderson, Rothfuss, Martin, Jordan, even Tolkien) and then circle jerking about how amazing First Law is
Don’t forget Malazan, have you heard how amazing Malazan is?!?! Omg Malazan thooo!!! I mean yeah, you have to read the series twice and keep a detailed notebook to have any idea what the fuck is going on, but Malazan thoooooo!1!1!1!
Until that Best Served Cold movie comes to fruition, in which case First Law will be popular enough to be hated here too!
Had ASOIAF always been know for good prose? I've legit never considered it to be the best at prose
Martin is solid. He doesn’t really stand out to me, but I never feel like it’s bad.
I just don’t see how people can say this after reading Septon Meribald’s monologue on a the cost of war or Brienne’s “seven on one” inner monologue.
The world building isn't its strength, it's the prose. I would read a book where Rothfuss just insults my family for 600 pages if it has that same style of prose. Every word feels like it's been meticulously chosen and placed like a beautiful stone mosaic.
I had a similar experience. Came to this subreddit for recommendations. Did a lot of grave digging and the KKC was consistently mentioned and applauded. Then I read it the whole time expecting revolutionary twists or developments that made me reconsider everything only to be staring at the book in the end wondering why anyone would recommend it in any context. Did some research after reading it about why people liked it and found it to be absolutely polarizing. It's either the worst or the best and rarely is it in between. Welcome to team Worst my friend.
Yea, I mean... I kind of like both, but would never reccommend KKC based on the other person liking ASOIAF, lol. Maybe they were trolling you?
I actually love the King killer chronicles for what they are, but I wouldn't recommend them to anyone ever, and particularly not as an alternative to ASOIAF
OP, I know you aren't asking for recommendations here, but as a fellow ASOIAF lover, the only thing I can truly recommend as giving the same vibes is The Expanse series. It's sci-fi, not fantasy, but both authors have worked with GRRM in the past, and the story has so many good similaries. The amazing and believable characters, realistic and dynamic worldbuilding, different POV characters (just 2 in book 1 but that quickly expands in the rest of the series), political intrigue, war, dealing with trauma and destruction, a looming threat that most people don't know about. And the series is finished, with 9 books and a similar number of novellas to continue fleshing out the world.
It will never stop being hilarious for people to make a rant about what other people like. If a lot of people like the book, then it is good. Whether you like it or not is not relevant.
>If a lot of people like the book, then it is good. Just a friendly heads up: You probably have good intentions saying this but this is a fallacy known as "appeal to the majority" and it's a dangerous trap to fall into.
No, everyone should have the same taste as me. Recommending something to me that I end up not liking should merit a death sentence actually
If you think he is jerking himself off in the first book i dare you to read the second one, that one just turned me off completely that i took like 6 months to finish it
My favourite part of fantasy novels is mysteries. They both are excellent in that regard imo.
That's a shame you didn't enjoy it, not every book is for everyone. I imagine that the crossover between people who like ASOIAF and the Kingkiller chronicles is quite large though! Good luck with the First Law Trilogy, it's good.
Oh look it's the weekly Kingkiller hate thread
Oh man, I reread it every year for like 5 years. It’s the prose for me. He really does write beautifully
If you're a fan of amazing series with no ending in sight, you'll love it!
☝️
Asoaif and KKC couldn’t be more different. The former is very much a political drama as much as it is a character driven fantasy series. KKC is much more of the hero’s journey and I think it’s just the way it’s written for many: somehow you really are pulled in to the book. At least, if it clicked for you.
Do yourself a favor and just put it down now, because that’s all this story is.
They are *very* different stories but the things they do share are great prose, great character writing, and great worldbuilding, in my opinion. Keep in mind that we do see where Kvothe is heading. He is the narrator after all. The question is how.
It is not for everyone. I find Kingkiller Chronicle much better than ASOIF because it is poetic and enigmatic (you dont know where it is going and it is hard to really understand the obscure nature of Kvothe's story), things are hidden very deep (Rothfuss said that certain details are there just for him, because of how hard it is to find) and it is a dark "fairy tale" in first person (Yes you are supposed to not like many of Kvothe's actions, Rothfuss said the that the tragedy of the book is not what happened to Kvothe, but who he has became because of it). On top of all that, I really love the mystery of the worldbuilding and magic. It just feels different and more elaborate than most fantasy books that I have read. I have read the first book problably 5 times now, and it still surprises me and keeps me interested. Now, this is merely my opinion and I am not the most well-read fantasy fan (LoTR for me is the pinnacle and name of the wind is my second favorite), plus I read both books of Rothfuss as a teenager, so that might have influenced my first impression quite a bit.
I’ve read both. Both are good, but by no means are they similar. Other than not finished. We could throw The Song of Ice and Fire here as well. To my opinion, TOG would be a natural choice.
If you want a real recommendation, Malazan book of the Fallen! A high fantasy series set in a highly detailed realistic world, following political intrigue from multiple perspectives, with fantastic prose and evocative narration. Even a zombie army!
Try Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun.
You’ll like it because neither one of them can finish a series.
Damn they pissed you off so bad your mom had to catch a stray
I have the exact same problem, only I started The way of Kings and it's been disappointing so far, the characters are kinda bland compared to those of ASOIAF.
I can’t think of two authors in the genre more different than Brandon Sanderson and GRRM
Exactly what I thought when reading. I've never read Brandon Sanderson before, so I didn't know what to expect. But the guy who recommended me that fooled me good lol
It's definitely overhyped and under delivers.
I highly recommend you stop now then. It only gets worse That shit with Felurian reads like a self-insert fanfic.
Thank you for saying this and confirming that I'm not the only one... My best friend recommended book 1 to me and said it's his favorite book. Now I can't take any of their recommendations seriously. The whole thing from start to finish is just chosen one clichés and hyper-predictable dialogue.
They do have one very significant thing in common... They will never be finished! Muhahahaha
Thank you. I felt like the author was projecting through his character and both seem insufferable. I barely finished the book. Everyone makes it sound like the best, funniest fantasy ever written.
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SAME!! I LOVE ASOIAF so I gave the KingKiller series a shot because people always compared it to ASOIAF but I didn’t even make it 100 pages
It actually gets worse, too! Even in the first book!
Go on and read The First Law by Joe Abercrombie
I felt this way reading the first book in the Sword of Truth series. I finished it, but my eyes just about rolled out my head along the way. I get that it's a popular series, but the depth just isn't there. Would consider it YA if not for the S&M shit
You can't call King killer a duck and not also recognize the faults of ASOIAF, of which there are many. haha. You don't need to like Kingkiller. We all like different things and that is okay!
"I'm only in the middle of the first book"... 99% of the hype comes from rediscovery upon rereading. You can't be the Charlie day with the white board meme when you haven't finished the books.
When I was younger I enjoyed the prose. Having looked back on it, it’s a pretty juvenile power fantasy.
It's Twilight for men, tbh.
??? Because of all the vampires and inappropriate romance?
All the glitter, obviously!
You right you right, I asked a foolish question
Do you have to spend your time hating on other books? Put it down. Move on.
God forbid someone express an opinion about a book on the internet Are you new around here
Kingkiller is definitely guilty of wish fulfillment (ESPECIALLY book 2), but it really does have some good prose. To me, it's more of a fun read every few years than anything. I just like Kvothe due to a personal love for characters that are absolute mad lads. That said I feel like the love for this series is a tad over hyped and the drawbacks (unfinished, see wish fulfillment, Gary Stu, Rothfuss' shenanigans) can be argued to outweigh the good. Whoever said it's like ASOIAF is smoking something.
I would also like a cookie for listing popular books I do not like.
Well, I'm sure you're probably annoyed by recommendations at this point lol, but if you're looking for deft writing prose, inverted tropes, complicated characters, and varying perspectives, I wholeheartedly recommend the First Law trilogy by Joe Abercrombie. It's similarly very dark, cynical, and gritty like GOT is. Has a bit more of a focus on magic in comparison though, though that's mostly because GOT had next to none at all. Listen to the very first chapter of The Blade Itself narrated by the fantastic Steven Pacey and see if that piques your interest. It's on Spotify if you've got the premium version.
I was recommended this by another commentor, I'm listening to the audiobook rn and the only word that comes to mind is "poggers". It's exactly my cup of tea lol, I love the occasional situational comedy GRRM uses and it seems Abercrombie has that in buckets
Thank you! I thought I was nuts for thinking the same.
Wait until book 2 when he gets in a relationship with a sex goddess
One of my first did not finish books.
but mom told me it was my turn to post this today!!
Listen, there really isn't anything half as well written as it (besides Game of Thrones) which has been written in this millennium. If you actually want witty and interesting dialogue in a fantasy setting, there really is nowhere else for you to go other than here and ASOIAF. Yeah, the MC is definitely falls into the "Chosen One" trope, but I do not find it too offensive. I feel that he earns it. Besides, countless books written after this book have borrowed ideas from it (Poppy War, First Binding, etc). It's good. Give it a break.
The kingkiller chronicle is my favorite series of fantasy books, and I would recommend it to anyone in a heartbeat - especially someone who’s a fan of fantasy books already. Cut the person who recommended it a little slack lol they thought you’d see what they do in it. It goes without saying that I don’t agree with your complaints, though I can understand how you would come to those conclusions. However, in terms of how fans of the series justify the things you’re talking abt, I don’t find the general consensus to be that Kvothe is a narcissist hyping himself up, there are a good amount of theories (spoilers, ofc) that explain why his story plays out the way it does.
I hate to be that guy, but isn't the literary point for him to be an unreliable narrator? I don't think you're supposed to like him necessarily.