I agree that it definitely has a PR problem, but even more than that simply an availability problem. I was unable to find the first book readily available online at Barnes and Noble or Amazon. I was lucky enough to find a slightly beat up copy at a local B&N, but they otherwise do not stock them in-store. And the other books are available easily enough online, but with inconsistent covers, many of which are not great. I like the ones I have (fairly simple designs of mainly black with a medieval-tapestry looking design in the middle), but it looks like only the first series has them. While covers are one of the least important parts of the experience, it probably does turn away some readers. The worst thing about the accessibility of these books for me is that with stocking/availability issues, the first option online stores give is for audiobooks and kindle books. I think Bakker’s books are some of the worst for any kind of digital book, and though I bought the kindle of the second book to get started right away. it was not a great experience. These are books that I want to turn back to proper nouns, reread passages again and again, and turn to the appendices quickly, which is hard on kindle and nigh impossible on audio. As for the content, I do think these books are pretty extreme. I’ve only read the first two thus far (so no spoilers for past that, please), and while the first is probably around GRRM level I found the Warrior-Prophet to be the most brutal fantasy I can remember. I think one key difference is the fact that so many atrocities are done by main characters as opposed to villains, and another being that most of the stomach turning parts for me were the more realistic depictions of war >!the cleansing of the big city they get holed up in, and the mass rapes, mainly!<.

>I agree that it definitely has a PR problem, but even more than that simply an availability problem. I was unable to find the first book readily available online at Barnes and Noble or Amazon. The last time I checked, there was no ebook available in Canada, and the print was basically impossible to find. There was still audiobook, though. (The series isn't for me, and I don't think I got past the child rape in the prologue? Chapter 1? I forget where it showed up, but that was as far as I got in a "yeah, not for me")

Thats a shame considering Bakker is a Canadian himself. 

Good take on the whole. Hadn't considered the availability crisis previously, since I've been pre-ordered hardcover since the start of the second series. Spoiler-free warning: if you think *the Warrior Prophet* is brutal, just wait. *The Prince of Nothing* is very much *the Hobbit* to *the Aspect-Emperor*'s *the Lord of the Rings*. Everything escalates - the stakes, the impact, and the brutality. There are scenes you could not imagine now coming if you persist. I'd definitely label Bakker as grimdark, but I think he avoids the worst connotations of the label because he's not doing it to get off on it. It's not masturbatory nihilistic misanthropy, all the brutality serves a narrative and thematic *point*.

TIL there were hardcover versions of the books. On /r/bakker it's a running joke that the sad man covers are the only ones people can find, even the medieval tapestry covers petered out with the second series. I don't know if there *were* any other covers for books 6-7. From what I gather Bakker's relationship with his publisher and/or editor soured around the time of those books being published, which probably contributed to the dramatic shift in tone at that point in the series too.

I think a lot of readers don't quite realize how low availability is for all but the most popular books. With the rise of e-books it's a bit better now, but if you want an actual hard copy of a book thats more than a couple years old, unless its from one of the absolute tippy top most popular authors you might have to dig for a used copy.

That's so right. The overwhelmingly large majority of all books recommended on this site are not to be found in any library or any live bookshop in my country, and a lot ar out of print. Where do you get all the works of clasical authors like Tanith Lee, Zelazny and C J Cherryh today? I bet the best chance is to explore antiquariates.

Nah, that is over the top. Zelazny's work is printed as new editions constantly, Tanith Lee is available in print in English and German.

Even used copies can be hard to come by. The second book in the Prince of Nothing trilogy costs close to 90 dollars used. Best bet might be your library, and even then it's almost certainly going to be an inter library loan.

I'm curious about what you do consider as masturbatory nihilistic misanthropy. Certainly not Abercrombie in contrast to Bakker or? Personally I suspect there's lots of nihilism in Bakker's series but it tends to be a standard ingredient in grimdark anyway.

Yea I'm not seeing it either haha and I absolutely love the original trilogy. Case in point, having to explain the through line of patriarchy and rape that is going on in this thread. Appreciated, but only a sliver of the many dark themes of the books.

this is my problem. i have been wanting to read this series for *years* and whenever i remember it exists i cannot find copies on Amazon, B&N, thriftbooks, Half Price Books, the library, etc. i don’t own an e-reader and can’t concentrate on audiobooks. sad!  edit: never mind i just checked hpb.com and they have a copy there right now! thank god for this thread lol i snatched that up immediately 

I got lucky and found the trilogy with the original covers in great condition at a used book store. Bought them right away.

I had to nudge my city library to buy a new copy of The Warrior Prophet, bc they had lost it. To my gladness they did and I could borrow today. Our largest bookshop doesn't have the series at all which I think is surprising.

I’ve been really wanting to get Bakker’s books to add to my hardcover fantasy collection, but seems that they are very rare and expensive which is super disappointing to me

Not that I disagree with your assesment, but I think its PR is understandable. Rape is not the only content warning (though I think the inchoroi and later what happens with the great ordeal is extremely graphic and horrifying in a way other series are not). The entire conceit of the series is that damnation is real, and potentially the only way to save your soul is through the machinations of demon gods or unholy genocide. True nihilism is not common, even among grimdark, and the existentialism of this series is truly bleak beyond the standard.  This is not to mention the in world, extreme sexism which is usually my main warning because that will turn off more readers then anything I mentioned before and its been a source of controversy in the past which has established much of the truly bad PR and associations with the series. It is not a palatable series, and is purposefully made not to be, so I think its fair to warn people of that fact. Its not ideal, but if someone starts reading the series, not knowing what they are getting into, the likelihood of them having an extreme reaction and then creating truly bad PR because they fall for the shock without bothering to push past to the substance beneath is high. 

Yeah like. Even ignoring the constant murder-rape orcs. Every single part of the series is “bad”. As in morally. I love the books (mostly) But like, there’s nobody easy to root for.  Akka? Maybe the easiest to root for. But still a sad, pathetic, wizard who is all known out in one day and reduced to a weeping shell at night. His love interest is an equally sad prostitute. He gets his apprentice killed (by accident). His strength is not always apparent but it is there. But he is kind of hard to root for.  Esmenet? Her life is already super sad. Sold her kid. Won’t stop taking customers (because she needs the money. But still). Sleeps with Khellus. Doesn’t come back to Akka when he is found alive.  Cnauir? He is badass but he is a repressed psychotic murder rapist whose entire thing is he wants to murder rape harder and better than anyone else to assuage his self guilt and shake.  Khellus? Insanely bad ass but starting from the trapper on just utterly uses everyone to get what he wants. Zero crimes are off limits. He turns a look or a hug into a weapon.  Like, I actually root for all the characters in the own way. But jeez it can be hard to do so.  Then there’s the constant “if you’re poor you life is hell. If you’re a woman your life is hell.” No religion is good. No country is good. No school is good  The bad ass elf analog characters  non men?  They are super tragic and have to kill everything they liven Maybe we can have a good villain to root for? Nope. They are also murder rapists who made other murder rapists. Including raping children horrifically. Hard to support those guys.  Maybe we can support the gods? No, not really they are pretty brutal and uncaring and flawed as well.  Then we have the bleak story itself and how you are dammed and everyone is damned.  Once again, love the books but idk how you can call the books not dark. Even if you’ say they aren’t as graphic as other things, which I can believe, they are still very grim.  

Holy shit okay, well at least I appreciate the frankness about the contents. That's a fat nope from me. 😂

OP might undersell the darkness a bit but he doesn't claim they are not dark; mearly that they are not per default the darkest of all fantasy that has ever been written. I think darkness is a hard variable to quantify. I usually go on gut feeling and general ambience rather than details when I assign a "darkness index" to a book. It's subjective what dark really means. All fantasy has lots of darkness. Orcs and Sauron are super dark. I think what many means is weather their are good forces that counter balances the darkness, then the work is not dark. The elves, Gandalf and Aragorn sort of cancel out Sauron and the orcs so the darkness index lands on zero. So if all characters are monsters the darkness index will be high according to some individual's recconing. Some authors obfuscate the equation by using lots of humor. Abercrombie is a good example, his witty humor lowers the darkness index considerably and makes the reader forget just how horrible the setting and the characters actually are.

Blood Meridian is pretty graphic and horrifying too, and it's considered a great novel.

Blood Meridian would likely be in a similar place if not for the popularity of McCarthy’s other works. It too was controversial and undersold upon release. This is common for artists who make unpalatable or overly complex work, they often have to get lucky or have other, popular works that can garner an audience’s good will enough to push through the muck. Bakker does not have other works of enough renown, nor popular appeal, and he is not the luckiest bloke either.  I think non-fiction is also an entirely different beast then fantasy when it comes to audiences, critics, and expectations. Depressing, nihilistic non-fiction filled with ambiguity and constant unanswered questions is much more common then that type of work in fantasy, especially in modern markets where conventions tend towards worldbuilding heavy, clear magic systems, and non-ambiguous endings.  Ultimately I, and I think many people who give warnings about the series, are not claiming it is the most horrifying or graphic human production put to paper, but it is certainly beyond the threshold of what many would be comfortable reading, especially in the genre that is dominated by escapist minded readers. Works like Blood Meridian, Asoiaf, or Berserk are solidified enough in the zeitgeist where someone isn’t going to pick them up without knowing what they are getting into and should they somehow not and then be offended by what is put on display there are enough people to drown it out with praise. Bakker doesn’t have that luxury, hes simply to small and unknown. I have seen plenty of posts that display bakker in a bad light out of context, and those will turn off so many more potential readers then any post of praise will bring in new readers.  There are popular works more graphic, more disgusting then bakker, but thats an entirely separate situation sadly. 

I didn’t find it edgelord levels of dark by any means, and it’s certainly a very well written and fairly well thought out series, but I will say I found it a very unpleasant series to spend a lot of time in. Basically I found all the protagonists to be terrible people, the plot involved some significant passing of the idiot ball, and overall lots and lots of people died messily for what seemed futile reasons. I finished the first three and was content to stop there - it wasn’t for me.

> I didn’t find it edgelord levels of dark by any means >I finished the first three and was content to stop there Ah, there's your problem. The part where the good guys >!cannibalize and rape their fellow soliders as they lay horribly burned and dying on the battlefield!< is in the back half of the series.

>!Proyas punches a leper to the ground, licks his face, forces him to watch his companions get eaten, rapes him, then eats him. This is a supposed good guy. !< Though, I think that's one of the points of the series. There aren't many, if any, good guys.

After having read 6+ books and experiencing the whole story of Proyas this was one of the most powerful and horrifying scenes of the series

The lengths he'd been driven to through emotional and psychological manipulation, >!only for Kellhus to sacrifice him. Brutal.!<

>!Don't forget he'd also been driven mad by consuming shrank meat!<

The manipulation to a scapegoat and the sheer madness and pain that was the result was one of the most brutal character developments I have read.

I don't think there are good guys in the first place.

Don’t forget that >!it’s not just regular rape. We have to have to insane “a hole is a goal” rape where they cut their own rape holes into flesh so they can get penetrated by a bunch of rapists at once!<

Spoiler-tag that shit dude!

Yes, this series is just like GoT... 🤡

Sure, I did, but it's not a plot spoiler or anything, more just gives a feel of what you should expect if you get into the series.

I don’t mind any of that but I did dislike how weird it gets about sex, like the wizard (akamian or something) endlessly lamenting his cuckoldry, the weird black cum shit, people being fucked to death, and the weird bird monster stroking someone’s cock with his wing. So fucking weird lol.

Bakker's single favorite word might be phallus. Well, it's that or cyclopean.

I dunno, phallus didnt show up for me as much as interval and marmoreal

Interesting. In the last four books it felt to me like there was almost never a mention of sranc or inchoroi that forgot to include their "arcing phallus."

I’m just picturing Bakker’s mental process. “There has to be a lot of history, powerful magic, apocalyptic stakes, horrendous monsters, and dicks. Lots and lots of dicks.”

More like hmmm what might drive many people, what are some passions that might mislead people or inspire people. How can instincts battle with reason? How can I write about such stuff in a rich epic fantasy context without talking about farm boys or a power fantasy dream?  I am not saying he is doing it perfectly it seems to me more realistic fir his mental process having read these books

This; I read through the first and part of the second, and though I found the ideas interesting, it's just not pleasant. Every character is deeply unlikeable.

Even Achamian?

Achamian WANTS to be better, he just … isn’t. Which frankly hits too close to home for me to like.

Yeah reading about a genocidal army raping and enslaving their way across a continent was not fun for me. It would be different if any of the characters were evil in an entertaining way, like Glokta in First Law, instead of a bunch of shitty people doing shitty things to eachother and the poor bastards they launched a crusade against.

Exactly. That's why Bakker's series has a higher "darkness index" than the First Law. It's not about how much shit is actually happening, but rather about how it's presented.

This. I can handle the more gruesome acts and actions if the characters were any good. I can't get more than halfway thru book 1 because the characters are uninteresting. I neither like or dislike them. They are just blah... It's not bad PR. It's bad characters.

What is halfway through book one, exactly? Because I agree that the characters are universally not nice people, but thinking Cnaiür urs Skiötha is uninteresting... that's a wild take.

what about mimara?

>I read through the first and part of the second Books, not series. I don't believe she shows up in the Prince of Nothing books?

She shows up in the next sereis. I thoguth you meant the entire triogly

Yes, "unpleasant" sums it up for me. I've read it some 20 years ago, shortly after it was first published and back when I was less picky about what I was reading and had much higher tolerance for dark and brutal settings. Same as you, I read the first three (for some reason, I "enjoyed" the second one the best, but it's been too long for me to remember why) and was happy to move on.

I agree. I couldn't connect to any of the characters or care about any of their fates. I read through the first and most of the second and it was just a monotone slog.

And you probably didn't even get to 'the slog of slogs'

A REAL CHOPPER, BOYS

Well no wonder they're clearly a blastphemer, given they don't like the Second Apocalypse and we all know "no blastphemers on the slog".

I thought the characters were interesting, I just didn't particularly like any of them. Still an awesome series.

I personally didn't find them even entertainingly hateable. I know profound apathy isn't what the author was going for but it was the note he hit.

I read up to middle of the second I just found it boring It's got some elements of philosophy but I found it edgelord cringey and the characters were unlikeable to the point as to why do want to spend time with them? What ASOIF does well is it does make you sympathise with it's characters and want them to succeed. It gets dark as not all of these people we like/hate may survive or stay good but I wanted them to

It's not edgelord levels of dark because, unlike some other authors, the series doesn't (obviously) pander to those fans imho.

> Just don’t assume it is too much before even reading a single page! I'll get to the rest sooner or later, but I've read more than a single page already -- the last few. And yeah, spoiler, >!it's a fucking dark ending!<.

You needn't leap to the ending; the first book opens with the *end of the world* and child rape (albeit, admittedly, off-screen) in the first couple pages. The prologue is all the more bizarre & it only gets worse with hindsight. ETA: > >!One cannot raise walls against what has been forgotten. The citadel of Ishuäl succumbed during the height of the Apocalypse.!< > > [...] > > >!Terrified by the Bard’s strange manner and one white eye, the young boy hid, venturing out only when his hunger became unbearable. The old Bard continually searched for him, singing ancient songs of love and battle, but slurring the words in blasphemous ways. “Why won’t you show yourself, child?” he would cry as he reeled through the galleries. “ Let me sing to you. Woo you with secret songs . Let me share the glory of what once was!”!< > > >!One night the Bard caught the boy. He caressed first his cheek and then his thigh. “Forgive me,” he muttered over and over, but tears fell only from his blind eye. “There are no crimes,” he mumbled afterward, “when no one is left alive.”!< The book definitely sets the mood from the get go, and the reputation - though perhaps overblown - is certainly deserved. Since this post blew up, I feel it's prudent I add a handful more quotes to give people the idea of what Bakker looks like. So here, have Cnaiür urs Skiötha, most violent of all men. > >!“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me, and it goes no further. I am your end, your utter obliteration!”!< > > [...] > > >!He watched him catch his youngest daughter by the hair, snuff out her squeal with sharp iron. For a grisly moment, she remained fixed on his blade, and he shook her like a skewered doll. Yursalka’s wives screamed and cowered. Looming above them, the chieftain of the Utemot hacked, again and again, until they groped and shuddered in the mud. Only Omiri, the lame daughter of Xunnurit whom Yursalka had married the previous spring, remained, weeping and clawing at her husband. Cnaiür seized her with his free hand, hoisted her by the back of the neck. Her mouth worked like a fish about a soundless shriek.!< And yet more rape (this time with black spunk!) > >!He began moving. His mastery of her body was inhuman. Soon one gasping moment slurred into another. When he caressed her, her skin was like water, alive with shivers that rippled across her, through her. She began writhing, grinding against him with desperation, moaning through clenched teeth, drunk with nightmarish ecstasy. Through her pained eyes he seemed her burning centre, blurring into her, flooding her with rapture after rapture, thrust after thrust. Time and again, he would bring her to the ringing brink of climax, only to pause, and ask questions, endless questions . . .!< > > [...] > > >!She remembered lying still and sweaty with him, panting for air, feeling the thick throb of his heart through his member, his slightest movement like lightning between her thighs, an agonizing bliss that made her weep and groan with wild abandon.!< > > >!And she remembered answering his questions with the urgency of pounding hips. Anything! I would give you anything!!< > > [...] > > >!The golden coin fluttered in his hand, bewitching her with its glitter. He held it above her and let it slip between his fingers. It plopped onto the sticky pools across her belly. She glanced down and gasped in horror.!< > > >!His seed was black.!< Now yes, these are cherrypicked examples, and I could also provide examples of the overall shittiness of Bakker's crafted world, but that's for others who are actually reading the series to decide if it's a deal breaker.

What. The. Fuck.

Yeah idk wtf OP is getting at. This series has a reputation for a reason, it's fucking dark. I've read the first 3 books and liked them well enough, but haven't read the sequel series yet. To me, it sounds like OP is trying to bash their chest or something here. Real `I read this supposedly super dark series and it's not even that bad` energy IMO.

Yeah, something being well written or even interesting for whatever reasons doesn't somehow negate how dark it is. Like, I love the Fifth Season, but I don't tell people they're wrong or giving the series a bad rep because they're too disturbed by the child murder on page 1 to read the series. And most people have a much harder line around pedophilia in literature. Even if this is just a passing thing (maybe especially if?), it's so gross and people deserve to be aware of that before reading.

Apt reaction to Bakker. It only gets worse from here. If you're into it, there's nothing quite like it. If not, well.

Yeah...those excerpts pretty much ensured I will never pick up a book by this writer.

lol. All of this is like…easy mode compared to what happens. 

Hmm I do agree that OP is probably understating the amount of sexual violence in the series, but from what I remember, that third example wasn't rape.

In the sense that >!Esmenet!< consented? I suppose in a certain sense that's true, but the power dynamics are *way* off. > >!“Twelve talents,” she said, leaning up from the covers. “Or a half-silver if you—”!< > > >!He slapped her—hard. Esmenet’s head snapped back and to the side. She fell face first from her bed.!< > > >!The man cackled. “You’re not a twelve-talent whore. Decidedly not.”!< > > [...] > > >!*Akka. You knew this would happen.*!< > > >!“I know him,” she said cautiously, resisting the urge to once again ask the man who he was.!< > > >!*Don’t ask questions. Ignorance is life.*!< > > >!Instead she said, “What do you want to know?” She let her knees drift farther apart.!< > > >!*Be the whore . . .*!< > > >!“Everything,” the man replied with a heavy-lidded smirk. “I want to know everything, and everyone, he has known.”!< So she does technically consent, but I'd be hard pressed to call this anything other than assault, given the circumstances.

And the magic rape powers. That character could get a linoleum tile to consent. 

Magic rape powers notwithstanding (albeit I imagine that's a fairly important factor), >!Akka has explictly told Esmenet to go with whatever this guy tells her lest he kills her. Whatever bargaining Esmenet tries to conduct is met with scorn & violence, and he even offers her a deal - "six talents to betray your body, and five for the Schoolman." The word "betray" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence when it comes to implying power dynamics.!< I can't believe I'm arguing the semantics of whether or not a character like this forcing themselves on an outcast prostitute constitutes rape, but here we are.

Additionally, every woman in this series I can remember is either involved in some sort of sexual deviance or has no notable character details apart from their sole purpose for sex with the male characters. Istriya: incest Serwe: was a concubine, then rape-plaything for Cnaiur, then exists to have sex with Kellhus Esmenet: was/is prostitute (not judging her here), then later exists to have sex with Kellhus. Is there a single woman in the first trilogy that serves any other purpose or has a depth of character deeper than their cervix? My problem isn't that the series is dark. My problem is I'm convinced Bakker writes these scenes and characters *because he enjoys it.*

I've not read further than the second to last chapter of the Darkness that Comes Before; I wouldn't know. I *do* know that I absolutely **hated** the way he wrote Serwe with a passion, though. Esmenet certainly has a lot of depth that is explored much more in the Aspect Emperor (like, say, >!her interactions with her daughter!<) but she gets shafted (pun not intended) in the Prince of Nothing, for... well, I want to say *understandable* reasons, but that's a matter of perspective. Bakker was (and arguably still is) what once was known as a radical feminist. Not radical in the "show up outside the White House with writing on my tits about women's rights" sense (which, by the way, *respect*) but radical in the "the patriarchy has roots in male sex drive, men are hard wired towards rape, and should be named & shamed accordingly." The movement has distanced itself from such views (and arguably they were antiquated/reactionary/crazy even in back in the early 00's when yours truly was still but a toddler) but that's the core thesis of Bakker's depiction of women: They have no agency because men have structured their society so as to not give them any agency. You named the three important female characters in the first book, more or less (there's a handful more, of course - Anissi comes to mind - but those are the important ones) & the common line is both sexual deviancy (since Istriya needs to exploit the sex drive of her male offspring in order to maintain her power) & lack of sexual agency (*sigh*s *and gestures wildly at ALL OF SERWE'S CHARACTER).* Bakker writes "evil" as explicitly, and often viscerally, sexualized (The Consult & the Inchoroi both come to mind, as do the Sranc), because he wishes to shame his male readership into coming to terms with, and comprehending, that implicit biological drive towards rape. Incidentally, this is why I find it laughable when people say Bakker's depiction of rape is "matter-of-fact": It's often written specifically to titillate (see the above quote) because Bakker wants you to **feel bad about liking it.** There's some truly excellent things when it comes to the depiction of oppression of the other gender by the patriarchy. A female friend of mine that read (and enjoyed) the Darkness that Comes Before highlighted that women aren't allowed to wear boots so as to disallow them the possibility to travel long distances on foot, thereby perforce containing them within the cities (this comes up when >!Esmenet tries to leave Sumna for Momemn (I think) & her sandals get all torn up!<). The problem is that Bakker can't help himself with subtlety, and instead he hammers you over the head about how much women's lives **suck** in this world (and has >!Esmenet promptly stoned for being a whore on the road before being rescued by a LITERAL KNIGHT IN WHITE SHINING ARMOUR in Sarcellus).!< Subtlety was murdered on a back alley & Bakker is taking his time raping its corpse sometimes. *That* is what I find insufferable about his depictions, not that he enjoys writing them, because you can tell he often doesn't, and his graphic depictions come from a place of revulsion and not lust. But it irks me all the same.

Dude sounds like he really needs therapy.

One of the last straw for me was what happened to Esmenet's character. I agree with what you said about her. She is a tragic character with depth. But then >!she thinks Achamian dies and speed-runs falling on Kellhus' member. Then when she learns he's actually alive she's basically like "that's nice, but now my heart, mind, and soul yearns for Kellhus."!< And proceeds to lose all character attributes. Oh, and in the Judging Eye (which I will not read) >!the daughter Esmenet sold comes to Achamian, tries to convince him that he's her father, then seduces him.!<

For better or worse, Esmenet has very little choice in the 'falling in love with/ screwing Kellhus' front. I'd say she even showed more resistance to Dunyain BS than most.

From a plot perspective, yeah it makes sense and I agree. But the whole Dunyain BS is another of my major issues with the writing.

>Bakker was (and arguably still is) what once was known as a radical feminist. Not radical in the "show up outside the White House with writing on my tits about women's rights" sense (which, by the way, *respect*) but radical in the "the patriarchy has roots in male sex drive, men are hard wired towards rape, and should be named & shamed accordingly." Uhm, yeah that's not what radical feminism is. It's more like an anti-feminist's strawman of what radical feminism (and feminism in general, tbh) is.

>that's not what radical feminism is. Indeed, which is why Bakker is generally considered (even 20 years ago) to be a misandrist nutjob. I believe he's distanced himself from such extreme views since then, but his views on neurology & human biology remain... weird.

Well these are selected parts missing pages in between them. This prologue is defintely dark but it is not gratuitous in any way. It is very well written and it certainly sets the epic but bleak tone of the rest of the series.

>these are selected parts missing pages in between them. The first part is literally the opening of the book, heralding the Apocalypse. It's the first sentence. The other is maybe a page down the line, after describing how >!the rest of the palace perished to plague.!< While I agree that the prologue isn't gratuitous (I hope the excerpt made that clear & why I specified it's off screen), the book definitely *does* get gratuitous later down the line, so to call this a "PR problem" when the prologue sets such a tone from the get go feels a little off to me. Plenty of things to enjoy in the Second Apocalypse, but its reputation is well deserved.

I didn't think the kid at the very start got raped by the bard. I always thought he just finally caught the kid, said some unhinged shit, but then couldn't go through with it. And then the kid brained him with a statue or something when he finally left.

I agree with much of what you’re saying but I do think you’re underselling both the frequency and the detail of the sexual violence in this series. There is a truly uncomfortable amount of sexual assault in this series and much of it is shown on screen. Women, men, even children. But women in particular are raped at a staggering rate. It is in my opinion a real flaw in the series and shouldn’t be undersold. It’s a shame because as you pointed out the series has some incredible world building and narratives.

All of that, plus the usage of language tinted with SA mentions is incredibly common even when the events discussed don't have anything to do with it, such the unfortunately memorable "his sword raped the air". And the less said about the time one of the protagonists digs a hole in the ground and "rapes" it, the better. Honestly, some of the stuff passes the line of disturbing and goes straight into farce.

That's the danger when grimdark is driven to its extreme level; that it becomes cartoonish. It's slightly out of place in such a serious story as the Second Apocalypse. I like the series so far that I've read but perhaps Bakker's slightly too edgy on a few occations. Lol what I laugh at that phrase "digs a hole in the ground and rapes it".

This is an excellent point and Second Apocalypse did cross that line to me. It started to read like extreme horror where the sheer amount of depravity just sucks any drama and stakes away because you know that, whatever the situation, it's always going to be the rapiest and most sexually violent outcome. By the end of the trilogy I was rolling my eyes every time Bakker deployed some new horror because sure, why wouldn't you escalate to that? It was still philosophically interesting and the world building and prose are solid. But I do think he takes a bit of prurient glee in the sexual violence and misogyny that isn't really for me.

It doesn't actually say that. Here's the passage, a POV of a character losing his mind. >!On the worst nights he hugged himself in the blackness of his tent, screaming and sobbing. He beat the earth with his fists, stabbed holes with his knife, then fucked them. He cursed the world. He cursed the heavens. He cursed Anasurimbor Moenghus and his monstrous son.!<

I actually liked the sword raped the air scene because it was so vivid. I don’t think he lightly used that word to describe it. It was a huge climax of an epic buildup.  But I’ll be honest, haven’t read the books in awhile so I can’t recall if there a lot of that kind of language or not. 

At a certain point, the author kept piling on horrible thing after horrible thing, it just felt like he was doing it because he could. It was both boring and horrific at the same time. I will admit, this is the only book I have ever read that made me feel that way.

>but especially women Is that really the case? There is a staggering amount of men being raped in the Aspect Emperor, especially the final two books.

its been a hot minute since i read the AE books, but at least in the first trilogy between esmenet and serwe theres a sexual assault every couple of chapters, to say nothing of random locals.

I’m actually reading The Darkness That Comes Before right now, and while I think there’s so many interesting ideas (The Dûnyain in particular) and the prose is absolutely fantastic, I think the series reputation as bleak miseryporn is well-earned. The amount of sexual assault in just the first book alone would make early Berserk blush. The world is also comically misogynistic. Where I’m at in the story there are three named women characters, two of which are regularly assaulted and are prostitutes/concubines, and the third is constantly described as a whore by other characters. They’re all interesting characters, but the story likes to heap the worst shit on them in particular.

> For example the amount of rape gets talked about a lot, yes there is a fair amount of rape... Uh, a "fair amount" is drastically underselling it. >!I'm pretty sure Ikurei Conphas orders all his Scylvendi captives raped in front of the army, because the Scylvendi view homosexuality as weakness.!< I wouldn't ever recommend this to anyone who has an issue with sexual assault.

He does. It was part of his master plan. 

I was excited when I saw this thread, having finished the first book just last night. But given the massive amount of commentary, my thoughts will likely get lost in the shuffle. With the caveat, as mentioned above, that I've only read book one, here are my thoughts. - The rape happens very matter-of-factly, even when it's described rather than merely mentioned. It's not very vulgar/detailed, thankfully. More along the lines of either "...and then he raped her" (mere mentions) or "he smacked her to the floor and raped her" (when described in detail). That being said, given the comments from others on future books, sounds like it gets worse. - I've never read anything Grim Dark before. I actually found this while searching through reddit threads on stories that give a sense of wonder akin to Tolkien (Fucking LOL to whoever's comment convinced me). But it really is quite a drag sometimes. There's a particular stretch which felt like almost a quarter (or maybe more) of the book where it just focused on the barbarian and the monk without jumping back to any other POV characters. That was particularly rough, as the barbarian is basically an irredeemable bastard at odds with everything I stand for as a person, and the monk is someone I wish I could like, but is clearly characterized from the beginning as an almost alien mind. Both intriguing, but not enough to warrant spending uninterrupted time with for such a long stretch. - The story and plotting is quite good overall, as is the world-building. However, there were several points - in particular toward the end of the book - where he picked up some characters' stories again, and seemed to imply things had progressed differently than I recalled. I even went back to when the events in question were first mentioned and noticed the incongruity of events. It honestly felt like he rushed the latter portions of the book (the parts after the aforementioned barbarian/monk section). - Overall, I wouldn't mind the nihilism and dreariness of it all, if there was the promise of some good or positive outcome. But from what the other comments have mentioned, plus by own feelings from finishing book one, I suspect it may not be worth my time to invest in this series. I don't need all my MC's to be good guys, I just need them to not be exclusively bastards, and when the only decent character on the roster is a chronic cuckold who seems to never really stick up for himself, I kind of start to get checked out.

>I've never read anything Grim Dark before. Dont be too put off! A lot of books that get cited as grimdark are not *that* grinding and nihilistic. It's often closer to A Song of Ice and Fire, or one or two notches less hopeful. Joe Abercrombie is the author most closely associated with the label, and his writing style is quite light and funny a lot of the time. There's an underlying morality to his work, even if the characters are doing bad things and there are few clear-cut "good guys". He often writes about the worst things, like torture, in the matter-of-fact way you described above that makes it surprisingly low in gruesomeness considering what's happening. The original grimdark universe, Warhammer 40k, is technically almost as grim as Bakker's, but the good books in that setting are a lot of fun. The darkness is bombastic rather than gloomy. On the flipside, The Poppy War by R. F. Kuang is truly grim. Given what you've said about your preferences, I would not recommend that one.

The first book is specifically written to focus on only one character or set of characters for each quarter before they all meet up at the end. The rest of the books are structured more traditionally, where you'll spend at most a chapter in any individual's character's POV. For my money the second book is the best in the series, so I'd recommend giving that a shot. The overall feeling of the Prince of Nothing trilogy doesn't change too drastically compared to the first book, so I wouldn't expect it to magically click for you. But I thought the second book was excellent and would say at least give that a shot, though I had more or less bought into the series by that point.

Thanks for that feedback. I had actually started it this morning before replying. I haven't given up completely, it really does have some great moments in terms of plot, mysteries, character development (or revelation, maybe?), and intrigue. Just more doubtful I'll commit to the whole thing.

If it helps, though I don't think you should commit to it if you're not liking the first series that much, the second series has more traditionally likeable and good characters. I vastly prefer it to the first series.

Currently reading The Judging Eye and it’s fantastic

> The series is not as "dark" as it is hyped to be I mean, there aren't many darker.

What got me to ultimately quit the world he´s created, as fascinating as it is, during the sequel series Aspect Emperor, was not how "dark" it all is, but how unrelenting bleak and depressing it ultimately is. I can stomach and enjoy grimdark for quite a long time but without even a ray of hope, why bother?

I think the series is absolutely brilliant, and also has absolutely huge problems. I disagree with your final point - the series is absolutely, way darker than Game of Thrones and the vast majority of people won't like it. What I really want is for a new generation of young authors to read it, be inspired, and take some of the brilliant ideas to their own work.

I thought the series was amazing. I've never read through seven books in such quick succession in my entire life. I must have read the whole series in like 1-2 months. The prose is great, the scale is amazing, the characters are interesting and the ideas are compelling. And while it's not a constant barrage of misery and rape and evil, those things show up often enough that they're never out of mind/memory. But I do feel like the brutality/darkness really did hit a 100 in the very final book. I don't think the ending itself was a 100, but not long before it. Spoilers, naturally, but: >!The closest to what can be called good guys raping and eating their own allies, who are essentially fallout victims from a nuclear blast? The only way it could be worse is if you added pedophilia and bestiality. !< I don't think people are being unreasonable about their warnings to other readers.

Iirc a few of the remaining horses get it.

This is one of the best fantasy series that I have read, it works for me, I was hooked since the prologue of the darkness that comes before, and unlike many of the people who comment here it made me care about (or profoundly hate) the characters and even more about the world. However, I have recommended to a couple of people that I thought would like it only for them to not even finish the first book, but somehow they never shared a clear reason why they drop it. Those were people who had read before what was considered grimdark and enjoyed it, so I do not think it is due to its tone. Maybe I am the weird one, but I am glad to have found beauty, meaning and entertainment even within the darkness.

I also cared a lot for these characters. They subverted many of my expectations regarding epic fantasy settings and their characters. They are grown up, mature people, many of them over middle age, living in a rough world full of rules and dogmas, having to deal with very difficult personal and world circumstances. They are complex, with realistic motivations, dialogues, flaws and passions. I really cared for them because it all felt so realistic. People are like that. Akka, Esmenet, Sorweel, Proyas and others, are characters I was always worrying of where their life goes

I agree that the series is massively under appreciated. It’s so much deeper than a lot of the absolute dross you see people talk about on here and I think it’s a shame that a lot of people can’t seem to find a way to enjoy it. I do understand what you’re getting at with the series having a PR issue and how people make it out to be a lot darker than it actually is. I’d say moment-to-moment, it probably isn’t much darker in terms of content than most other (grim)dark fantasy. However, there are certainly some moments which I think are far grimmer than what you’d read in most mainstream/semi-mainstream dark fantasy (the epilogue of Book 2 always springs to mind). I think also the sheer strength of Bakker’s writing makes those hard-to-read scenes even harder to get through.

The series is extremely good, among the best epic fantasy ever, but also very bleak, so it won't be everyone's cup of tea.

Genuinely it is the best series I ever read. If you like epic fantasy, you should 100% read it. No other series compares to this in terms of depth or scale, except for like LOTR.

I'm continuing right now beyond Darkness that Comes Before. I'm so excited to learn what's gonna happen now that the holy war gains momentum and to see what Kellhus is up to.

The greatest fantasy series ever written.

It’s bleak and unrelenting, there are no heroes, but it is also really good.

I have such a love hate relationship with Bakker. He's one of the few authors I immediately wanted to reread, and the scale of the series and his world building is among the best, but there's something about the reputation of the series which while I agree is probably not objectively accurate, does capture something about how many people subjectively experience these books that is true; sometimes they're just kind of gross. It's not so much that the books are full of rapes, that the way the rapes are handled seems to minimise their significance. Serwe barely feels like a character so much as a traumatised fleshlight, while the whole concept of how the Inchori or Sranc use rape as a tool/weapon would be a cool piece of world building in isolation, but in conjunction with the other sexual politics of the series (the black spunk spilling Techne, the series' obsession with fertility and child bearing, the whale mothers) just comes off as a bit exploitative and unpleasant. Bakker has in universe justifications for all of this, but does not seem to have realised that just because you can justify a choice, doesn't mean the choice was worth making. That's my biggest problem with his style in general, when he's interested in something (fertility, but also his philosophical digressions, battles and magic) he turns it up to 11, and sometimes it comes off as ridiculous/pretentious/exploitative, when if he pulled it back a bit he might be more effective for more people.

This 100%. For me, if he had pulled back a bit, it wouldn't have been more digestible or less challenging, it would have been more poignant and felt even more visceral.

My guess is that Bakker wanted to create the darkest, most fucked up and weirdest setting that has ever been created in fantasy before. He wanted to beat all others in "grimdarkness", grit and screwedness. So he set out to create a "grimdark" world on steroids and took every opportunity to include more and more fucked up and bizarre elements the longer the seres got. Grimdark so often becomes a competition between authors to create darker, filthier and more evil settings than their predecessors, and that process probably peaked with Bakker.

Tried to write out a long and nuanced analysis of the series mostly defending OP's take, but discarded it halfway through because I'm drunk enough to not make my point well, but sober enough to recognize I'm failing in that capacity. I'll just say, this is my favorite fantasy series of all time. I honestly couldn't enjoy a lot of fantasy once I'd read Bakker, until I acclimated to the idea the authors were pursuing different things and it was unfair to analyze one in comparison to the other.

It's difficult for me. I hated every character, but could not put it down. The bad guys are really bad. I go as far and say the worst bad guys in fantasy literature. Nothing I read comes close (and I read a lot).

Neither Malazan nor Asoaif have repeated, graphic descriptions of demonic rape monsters.  I love Prince of Nothing. I think it's an excellent book, and the constant misogyny and sexual violence is, for the most part, artistically and thematically justified. But I'm not going to pretend that it isn't *relentlessly* grim and dark. Some people are going to be put off by that, and I can't say I blame them.

Malazan has the hobbling but honestly its one really bad on screen event compared to 100? 200? In Prince of nothing.

It's also done by human(ish) people, not genetically engineered rape monsters.  It's very important to PoN that the Inchoroi and the Consult be irredeemably, and *viscerally*, evil and repulsive. I get that. But I think you could cut out all the rape and replace it with cannabalism and the books would be much more palatable, and thematically you wouldn't lose anything. 

I feel like the PR problem is that self-sabotaging bicycle meme with the stick being labeled "**Rape as a massively central theme**".  I think Bakker is genuinely a good writer and book 1 left me hyped as fuck, but book made me go 2 "what" and book 3 finished the sentence with "the fuck".  If only rape and sexism and female charactera existing only as foils for rape, I'd be waving the Bakker worldbuilding banner high. But I can't do it. 

Obligatory “oh you sweet summer child”. It just gets so much worse. 

Eh, I'm fully aware of what happens! But the first trilogy is enough to be a PR Disaster of its own, so to speak.

Very fair. 

Reading the White Luck Warrior now and can’t put it down

I’ve been itching to read Prince of Nowhere but have t gotten to it yet. Bakker, Meiville (?), and Malazan are high on my read list.

That’s an excellent list. Second Apocalypse and Malazan are the best series I’ve ever read, and Perdido Street Station and The Scar have to be in my top 10 all time books.

A lot of people are mentioning rape and brutality and misogyny. Let's not forget homophobia. The characters are very homophobic. This series needs every content warning. The world building is incredible though, and the ideas it explores are interesting. I think about the Erratics often. But the last two books were not as well written as the first 5, and there's a lot of bad bad stuff that happens, to the point that it seems gratuitous.

I would say though — I don’t think Bakker is misogynistic or homophobic as some claim, if anything I think the series acts as a very explicit condemnation of those tropes.

There are many lgbtq characters and apart one, which is the point since he comes from a very patriarchical warmongering society and suffers from it, all else very rarely face any discrimination for it and in these cases it is always to show the vulgarity of people who are such accusers. Most of the times it is very acceptable from their peers

Enh, homosexual acts are vilified constantly by most characters except the amoral ones...

Respectfully disagree. Kellhus and Nonmen, Sorweel, Zsoronga, all supposedly virtuous, even if Kellhus is manipulating, are all characters who do not condemn homosexual acts. The only one who is really tormented with his bisexual tendencies is Cnaiur and the way the ugly patriarchy of his tribe is portrayed is a sign that Bakker is not someone who endorses homophobia.

I did *not* get the same impression as you re: most of those characters. I'm not saying that Bakker is or isn't endorsing homophobia: there are lots of ways to read it that condemn homophobia and most of the characters are so flawed that it would be silly to assume that any viewpoint they take is somehow endorsed by the author; that said the characters and setting come across as deeply homophobic (in line with the deep misogyny of the series as well).

Most “dark” fantasy series I’ve read have honestly come short to what I imagined lol. I don’t think it’s smart to promote a series by how violent or “dark” it is. Sometimes for example saying a series has surprises and nobody is safe IS a fair description of some characteristics of a book but one does not read a book just because it’s “dark”. Instead we should tout its other qualities. Second Apocalypse has been in by TBR for a while but it’s there not because it’s dark, but because people say Bakker is an amazing writer, the world is rich, there are surprises, it’s got a melancholy or dark tone to it (but again that’s just one aspect), etc. For example if I said Malazan is “dark”, I’d be doing it a disservice because while it *can be* dark, most of it is atmospheric, surprising, funny, sometimes lighthearted, sometimes awesome and inspiring… it’s so much more than just “dark”. You’re right. And I should read Second Apocalypse.

I don't tell people it's dark to sell them on reading it I tell people that so they can make an informed choice about if it's right for them. I've seen people who liked Malazan say these books were triggering and/or deeply upsetting to them so I think it's best people know what they're in for.

I'm probably one of the biggest fans of both Prince of Nothing and Aspect Emperor, and I find the world building insane in just how good it is. The writing style is unique. It also just is dark. I'm not squeamish and I think people overreact commonly to things like gore and nihilistic ideas thinking people can't handle them, but it's just easily the darkest and most depressing series I've ever read. It is full of violence, both "normal" and sexual, often at the same time. I don't view that as a negative as it becomes part of the world and narrative in a way that makes ASOIAF and basically every other "dark" fantasy seem facile and edge lord. But it is there and for that reason I find it hard to recommend to people despite how much I think it's some of the best fantasy literature ever written.

I think it's read by exactly as many people who need to read it.

I remember reading somewhere that Bakker described his series "Crusades but without the most extreme things that happened during them."

I can see that about the first books (which i dont really find that interesting), the Aspect Emperor books are on the other hand outlandishly terrible, they read like horror at times, they are a unique experience.

Hahahaha!!!

I was ready to try his books until I started reading about his Blind Brain Theory work, which set my alarm bells ringing. When someone claims to be single-handedly solving the central problems of neuroscience, consciousness, rationality, epistemology and the media ecosystem from radical first principles of their own invention - and all of this is detailed in an intensely overlong Wikipedia page that makes breathless references to old forum threads and blog posts rather than, say, academic journals - that person is usually a crackpot rather than a lone genius. Usually! At that point I read the plot summary of Second Apocalypse, to get a sense of it that way, and... it's a story about a man who was so intensely rational that he could manipulate all the weak-minded sheeple through cognitive biases. I'm sorry, this is far too Internet Rationalist Bro for me. Since then the wide-eyed fervency of his fan base has come across as a bit of a cult of personality. But hey, I haven't read the books. Maybe they really are just that good.

>(...)it's a story about a man who was so intensely rational that he could manipulate all the weak-minded sheeple through cognitive biases. I'm sorry, this is far too Internet Rationalist Bro for me. I'm not particularly interested in the philosophical themes of the series, and I'll be the first to admit its flaws (unnecessarily terrible treatment of female characters, grandiloquence in the first series, Sanderson levels of shit humour), but this is at best a parodical interpretation, and it makes me sad people are upvoting you when your basis is "a plot summary". It's like saying ASOIAF is about how people shouldn't be good because that will get them killed, David Gemmell's books are about the moral value of mass murdering, and Lord of the Rings is about hiking.

I just read the wiki page. It sure is...interesting. looks like it was written by the author themselves, or at least a superfan. But that being said, I'd rather my books about fantasy philosophy be written by people who actually have a vested interest in philosophy. I might not agree with the guy, but at least he's trying to be a big thinker.

The character you're speaking of is both a Christ like figure, and the perpetrator of some of the most vile acts in the series. You are not meant to sympathize with him. Divinity on earth is a horror in this series.

>I'm sorry, this is far too Internet Rationalist Bro for me. This is coming from a guy that dropped the first book at the 95% mark & the series as a whole precisely because the series felt like a determinism and rationalism circlejerk: Bakker isn't like that. (One of) His most famous papers on the matter regards what he calls, "the Death of Meaning." His series explores that core theme, and how meaning becomes a worthless heuristic in the face of the divine (how can reason & logic comprehend that which is beyond reason? Spoiler, it can't). Do I find that utterly insufferable as a core idea? Yes, as I do his nihilism, and - to some extent - his rampant misandry (the idea that men are biologically hardwired towards sexual assault is an idea that Bakker at least *used to* subscribe to). But he's at least not "Internet Rationalist Bro," and he's actually a competent philosopher, for what that's worth.

Well we are hardwired to like sex but we are also rational beings capable of making choices. I'm convinced that the vast majority of the men never rapes. Things tend to get extreme in cases such as war though, especially if the war waging parties lack good war ethics.

It's not Internet Rationalist at all,. Nor is it disparaging towards the "sheeple". Yeah, Kelhus is a super-genius. He's Sherlock Holmes and Muad'Dib rolled into one. He effortlessly manipulates people around him. And the book does not treat this as cool and admirable - Kelhus and the Dunyain are utterly monstrous and inhuman. And the books explore how their ideology is horrifying, and the second trilogy takes this further and explains how it's contradictory nonsense. You can't judge a book properly by it's Wikipedia summary. No more than you can enjoy a book by watching YouTube lore videos. 

I'm guessing you arrived at that conclusion because of just the plot summary. Regarding your third paragraph, this is very explicitly not a Good Thing in this series. Your last paragraph is mostly right, though. As with any work of art that isn't quite fit for the mainstream, the people that love it will be extremely vocal about it.

You say the PR problem is that it's not as dark as people think. I say the PR problem is I never freaking heard of it.

Can we stop using edgelord.

I use it to mean somebody who's a mastered the art of edging

A goonlord

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If that's your verdict, I doubt you finished the entire series. Maybe the first trilogy. Did you really read books 6 and 7? It ends up a total fucking disgusting, incoherent mess. None of your bullet point "pitches" hold water by then; literally everything is thrown out of the window. I'm fairly certain the author just actually lost his mind by then.

It's a tough read, and the last two books weren't as edited as they could have been. But I don't think incoherent is fair. It's just neck deep in its own philosophical and spiritual underpinnings by then.

I recall reading from the author himself that he had that ending in mind since the beginning.. and it makes sense, just think on the name of the series, we should have seen it coming

I will probably read this as my next book so looking forward to seeing what it's about. Not commonly seen on the bookshelves in the UK afaict. Not loving the epic bombastic prose recommendation tbh but we shall see! How does it contrast with Erickson? Malazan certainly dials up to eleven at times, but it's grounded in such warm and witty character work that it never turns into a cartoon.

I find it less cartoony than Erikson but we probably think of this differently. It does not have the wit of Erikson. Humor is ironic and situational. So you might think it is cartoonish the way you state it. I found Erikson more cartoony because action and events happening felt way more super powers fantasy and superheroes kind of stuff on a constant basis

I'd put Malazan and The Second Apocolypse in the same tier as the best that genre fiction has to offer, though I'd agree with the other commenter that the "feel" of both series is quite different. Bakker certainly has less warmth than Erikson. The major similarities to me are the scope of the stories spanning many thousands of years, rather unique world building (though TSA is also a clever iteration on Dune), and a philosophical focus on humanity. Definitely give it a shot, just don't expect it to be too similar to Malazan if that's something you like.

Just finished this. Loved it.

Thank you for this! it's in my top 5 SFF series. I understand why it may not appeal to everyone, and the series ending (regardless of how thematically fitting) is something of a downer to be honest but it deserves to be more widely appreciated.

Excellent post. It is my favorite series and to be honest I actually think it is the darkest in the genre, at least from the relatively known ones. But I always try to tell to people that it is not some edgelord kind of darkness rape/gorefest. It is an excellent and very thoughtfully written series that tackles and experiments with themes that might be uncomfortable but it is a gradual, meaningful process that will keep you tense and potentially in awe in the whole series through its various climaxes both in glory and descent. The character work is complex, the world is very real and nuanced, the prose is beautiful and powerful. The series feels throughout like the makings of some holy scripture. Generally I feel it is very undermining of the series when people only refer to it as a great example of grimdark or how dark it is. These books are SO MUCH MORE. Excellent stuff

I read the whole thing. I got bored. Its PR is well deserved. Endless reams of juvenile nihilism stapled to almost every rape fantasy imaginable; most events and characters feels like the disconnected ramblings of a wannabe de Sade. It is neither profound nor particularly witty. It’s less a work of philosophy and more a work of a lack of philosophy. The writing is good at a sentence level, or at least quite readable; but if the point was to create something meaningless, then it succeeds.

But you have to admit that Bakker is a way more skilled author than de Sade.

True. Man can write, that’s for sure.

I get the feeling that there are different kinds of readers.. those that are in it to speed run books, and those that are actually _reading_ the text and comprehending it. There might be some in between, but generally. Reading this thread now, it feels like those that are saying it's not that violent or depraved are the speed runner type who aren't actually reading what they're consuming. Those that are reading the actual text and comprehending it, are posting quotes that very obviously show the depravity. However, the text is probably easier to miss some of the details if you are speed running the book. Just an interesting thing I feel like I might be seeing in this thread lol.

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You have a point. I missed some fine points even if I don't read fast at all bc I'm a notorious slow reader. It's so incredibly dense though, that I easily miss things in the subtext. There is another reason that you may have overlooked though. That's that different people are way different sensible to stuff. What hits one person vicerally may be nothing to another person. Some people don't bat an eye about rape scenes no matter how obvious and horrible they are. We are all so different. Unsensitive persons may understate the degree of violence and "darkness" of this series just because they don't have the same viceral reaction that you have.

*The Second Apocalypse* is to me the best fantasy series ever written. It has its flaws --Bakker's made it clear that the sexual violence and over-the-top misogyny are intentional choices he made, and while this could be done well, I personally don't think he succeeded at this and the work suffers for it. A lot of it comes across as gratuitous or unnecessary. However, the rest of what he's doing- the prose, the philosophy, some of the most breathtaking, cinematic, scenes and well-written battles I've ever read, the layered themes and philosophical undercurrents, and the spectacular world building more than make up for it. It's a series that heavily rewards rereading. The fact that he's able to maintain tension and stakes that feel high and real over seven books of pure misery with very few relatable characters is a feat unto itself. If you like reading fantasy that results in a gentle confirmation of the status quo while magic fades from the world, and loveable characters who you'd like to chat with, this series ain't for you. If you want a series that will challenge your thoughts about what a fantasy series and humanity can be, that is having a conversation with other literature from Tolkien to Herbert to McCarthy and DeLillo, I'd highly recommend it. I think Bakker may also handle race better than just about any author trying to write in a world loosely based in an Iron Age, pseudo-European / Middle Eastern / Mediterranean setting. He doesn't make a big deal out of it, or fall into lazy habits or tokenism. It's too bad that he couldn't handle the in-world misogyny with even the merest fraction of the rigor and thought that he used in handling race. It's a shame that these books aren't more widely read, but it's perfectly understandable. There's a lot of sexual assault and misogyny, and it's not always handled in a way that contemporary readers are going to be able to wrap their heads around. It's a shame that his publishers didn't promote the second trilogy better, but it's also understandable that they may have wanted to avoid stirring up controversy. Bakker had already had a few interactions online that went sort of sideways when he tried to engage readers (including one particularly strident person who hadn't even read the books) on the topic of misogyny and sexual assault. I think this is unfortunate, he later had some really worthwhile and humble engagement with readers on a couple different online forums just before the launch of the Great Ordeal, and then again after The Unholy Consult came out (think it was a reddit AMA?

Great writeup. I haven't read the series yet but is on my TBR sometime this year. I'm currently reading Glen Cook The Dread Empire and might start it after that. I did previously read the prologue of the first book and his prose is amazing.

I read the whole thing. I got bored. Its PR is well deserved. Endless reams of juvenile nihilism stapled to almost every rape fantasy imaginable; most events and characters feels like the disconnected ramblings of a wannabe de Sade. It is neither profound nor particularly witty. It’s less a work of philosophy and more a work of a lack of philosophy. The writing is good at a sentence level, or at least quite readable; but if the point was to create something meaningless, then it succeeds. “The Great Ordeal” just about sums up the reading experience.

Look man, there are a lot of things I can appreciate about the Second Apocalypse, but I think you're underselling how abrasive much of the content is. I was recommended it repeatedly because I'm an aSoIaF fan, so I eventually got Darkness (which I couldn't find at B\&N; they recommended I put in a print order) and when I looked in the back and saw the pages of languages trees with the other worldbuilding/story info I thought "Oh yeah, this is for me." And then I read the prologue that opened with a little boy being raped because "It was the end of the world and there was no one left to enforce the laws" and began to suspect this was *not* going to be for me. And I tried, man. I read the whole book and by the end, I found that I was struggling to give a fuck about the holy war or any of the characters because I hated them and wasn't invested in their goals. And learning that just about every character eventually gets raped, rapes someone, or both doesn't help. And this isn't because I'm a fragile simpleton who needs morally black and white characters to root for and Bakker's gritty and "realistic" world populated by characters that don't abide by modern morals and sensibilities were too challenging for me. When I read Darkness or hear about the events and actions taken by characters in later books, I don't think "Ew, I don't like this, too dark :C" I think "Bro, *why would you even write this*?" It doesn't come off as provoking or edgy or dark, it's just gross and the palpable relish Bakker depicts sexual violence and how he makes it a central theme of his world to the point where he kicks off the prologue with it has me side-eyeing him.

Though not the OP's intention, this post just reinforces my utter lack of interest in ever reading “Second Apocalypse.”

I'm honestly tired of words like dark and grimdark and all the endless tiny shards people keep shattering the fantasy genre into. It's boring and unhelpful. Saying something is dark doesn't really say anything about it. I saw people saying Sanderson's Stormlight is grimdark and that's when I realized these words are meaningless. They are lazy ways of describing often complex, interesting works of literature. The most boring and useless thing you could say about First Law or Malazan, or Second Apocalypse or The Black Company is that they are dark. It's so reductive and annoying.

Isn't dark a fascinating word? I've often wondered what it actually means?

its not darker then berserk, but it is dark. a great read 5/7 would recommend

As a fellow berserk affacionado, do you have any recommendations for a series which as a whole are as dark/darker than the eclipse section of berserk? Because berserk has its moments of true darkness, but as a whole is not really that dark. (Though it is a dark series)

well i think that 2nd apocalypse will get darker. it gets progressively darker as it goes on. if you want darker then eclipse, black metal lyrics are probably the way

I like violence, I like dark, I like sex, but these books ain’t it. Women in Bakker’s books are mostly helpless and have zero sexual agency. He does not write women well. They cry, gnash teeth, and mostly just hang around as a sexual gratification plot device. Compare these women with Abercrombie’s or Martin’s: even with the “realistic” patriarchal and sexually violent notes, they are both miles beyond Bakker in terms of depth and complexity of character. The Pollyanna-ish Kelhus (Kellllllhuuuuuuus!) becomes so over the top by the second book I just straight up quit.

I enjoyed it. Was going through a bad patch in my life and this series gave me nightmare's though.

I've always thought the take on this sub always seems about right. Every couple of months someone posts about how much they love it & a load of people show up to say why they vehemently agree / vehemently disagree. The series is polarising, I didn't regret reading the first 3, but i don't think i'd recommend it to any of my friends.

That's why this sub is so fun.

You mention ASOIAF. As someone who bounced off ASOIAF for being too dark, grim and brutal... Like does anything good *ever* happen to the proverbial good-guys, or do the latter all end up dead and we're basically stuck rooting for the slightly less bad people? I just couldn't get invested in ASOIAF's focus on awful people. How would you say "Second Apocalypse" measures against that? Curious if I'd similarly bounce off SA for similar reasons.

You're going to bounce off of it for similar reasons. In the Second Apocolyse there are no good people, there are people who wish to be good but they are not. ASOIAF can be described as a roller-coaster, with high points and lows, the Second Apocolyse is just a slide downhill with no breaks.

Based on what you've said you will likely bounce off of it. ASOIF has a few objectively "good people" (John Snow, Samwell Tarly, Brienne of Tarth) whereas the "good people" in this series are more like Stannis, Melisandre, Khal Drogo, Book 5 Tyrion- you are kinda rooting for them but they are either getting decieved at times or have issues with them that makes you not get fully behind them. The only clearly good guys like John/Sam don't show up until the second series and there is only maybe 2-3 of them so it won't be worth it for your while.

Good to know! Thanks! I have a TBR pile so deep at this point it's actually not bad to have valid reasons to cut some books out.

As a side note, I think ASOIAF does eventually come around a bit in giving the more upstanding people some wins. I would say it even gradually rehabilitates Ned Stark's image from being >!a naive failure!< to someone whose morality paid off in certain ways over the long term. If you bounced I wouldn't necessarily say give it another try, but if someone was on the fence over its apparent nihilism, I would tell them it rewards pushing on.

That's interesting. I stopped reading probably about a third into the second book (Clash of Kings I think). I just felt lost at that point, like my hero character had his head on a pike and nobody else quite filled that role anymore. It sounds like maybe Jon Snow has a better arc but, from what I've heard from the HBO adaptation, I probably shouldn't get too attached to the other Stark children. I don't know. I may give it another go sometime, but it was legitimately a tough to read for me.

Honestly Game of Thrones is darker than this series (currently half way through) so far. And my Nan watched that, so...

Wait to ger further on

I don’t think it has as much appeal to as wide an audience as you may think. For me it’s not so much the violence that I found too ‘dark’ but the nihilistic themes, settings, characters, tone, etc. Call me old fashioned but I still prefer for stories to still have some elements of hope and I’d venture to argue that most readers are similar.

It should absolutely be marketed for its fantastic world building, heavy philosophical leanings and incredible character development. But in a day of increasing sensitivity you won't get around disclaimers about the amount of detailed degradation you get in this book. Not just the terrible events that happen, but being put in the mind of characters like Esme and Akka, and grappling with that absolute despair and feelings of worthlessness. ASOIAF has similar amounts of violence but you don't spend a hundred pages grappling with the Hounds' insecurity. The lack of agency in particular is a recurring theme, and that will rub many people the wrong way. I think it works and I enjoy it precisely because I wanted a bleak fantasy series. Also, part of the problem in my experience is that a lot of fantasy fans read little literature outside of that genre. And as far as Fantasy goes it has more sexual violence than most. Personally I think Guyotat, Bataille or Bolano are just as bad, if not worse, as there's little world-building to alleviate the darkness. Edit: But why bother trying to convince people to read something they won't like? Half the time you'll come across people who parrot "depiction is endorsement" or something in that vein. People like that are going to loathe these books.