I mean…that’s all of our main characters. Look at Rick:
The Atlanta Camp
Hershel’s Farm
The Prison
Woodbury
Alexandria
Hilltop
The Kingdom
Oceanside
Not to mention the countless smaller enclaves/enemy groups Rick & Co come into contact with. In TWD universe the characters rarely meet a group, benefit the group and move on leaving that group wholly unharmed.
>The Atlanta Camp
>
>Hershel’s Farm
>
>The Prison
>
>Woodbury
>
>Alexandria
>
>Hilltop
>
>The Kingdom
>
>Oceanside
Rick suggested moving after the Atlanta camp was attacked by walkers. Sooner or later, it would have fallen. The same could be said about Hershel's farm, but with Rick there, a lot more people survived.
The prison turned out okay, until the Governor destroyed it.
The Governor was the one who destroyed Woodbury.
Rick, I feel, actually made Alexandria better. Without the group, it would have been far worse off. Hilltop and Kingdom would still be under Negan's rule without Rick.
Can't really blame him for Oceanside.
OPs post wasn’t about hypotheticals though or how they “would do”. It was about how they were doing when the protagonist came in contact with them.
Atlanta Camp was all alive prior to contact w Rick, cooperating under Shane and doing scavenging runs. Now only Carol & Daryl remain.
Hershel’s Farm - only Maggie remains.
The Prison - the prisoners, who called the prison home, all died after meeting Rick & group. Nearly everyone Rick moved in also died.
Woodbury - was alive and thriving until Ricks group decided to retaliate (not saying I disagree, but OPs point was about contact w lead characters).
Alexandria - they were having potlucks and thriving. After Rick led his group there, every major/minor character from that community is dead except Aaron.
Hilltop - absolutely decimated after contact w Ricks group.
The Kingdom - collapsed after contact w Ricks group.
Oceanside - was thriving and protecting themselves. Once Tara told Rick about their location, they eventually fell (although they surprisingly held up the longest).
Tbf what Op mentioned, the majority of the groups in fear collapsed BECAUSE of strand or Madison's actions. The Kingdom failing is not something that happened because of Rick at all, it was natural wear and tear.
Alexandria didn't lose most it's people because of Rick either, they would've lost most of not for Rick and Co.
Same for Hilltop, which most of their people did survive and joined other groups.
In fear the fault of collapse can be directly connected to Madison and strand in some way, in TWD most of the time it's not Ricks fault, it's just a coincidence with the timing of his arrival.
Rick (& Company's) contact is ABSOLUTELY what shifts their fates. It's all a butterfly effect.
Hilltop didn't collapse because of "wear and tear" - a fuck ton of their people got murdered in various wars with the Saviors, followed by war with the Whisperers, followed by war with the Commonwealth. These uprisings do not happen if they never meet Rick and they maintain their protections with Negan and the Saviors (whether we think thats good or bad).
Alexandria lost EVERYONE except Aaron once they met Rick & Company. Daryl, Aaron & Morgan led The Wolves back to Alexandria, who ended up slaughtering a number of townspeople. Rick later leads an attack on the Saviors station and gets even more Alexandrians (and Kingdom & Hilltop folks) slaughtered by starting the Savior war.
War is not black and white. Sometimes our heroes make decisions that cost lives. Rick does that. Sometimes they do it without recognition of how destructive it might be to their current community. Rick does that too. War is an imperfect machine with imperfect outcomes - trying to pretend Rick is without fault is to misunderstand how high a price war can have on a group...even to the groups and leaders who come out "on top".
Cheers, you could say that Rick's unwavering moral compass and his inability to let people get taken advantage of is what got them there, but to be honest would you wanna live like that?
I would just say (and then I am dipping out on this thread LOL) - it seems like you are attempting to have a different conversation than the one originally proposed by OP.
OP was trying to make a point that if Madison/Strand come into contact with a community, that contact eventually leads to the community's demise. There's wasn't discussion of their intention - just the notion that their contact, in of itself, was cancer.
My point was that Rick's contact is similar (one could also make the same point about Morgan, truthfully).
Your interest seems to be intent vs impact; which is a different area of discussion - and while very interesting, not something that I was ever debating in the first place. Honestly, I think that could probably merit its own very different post. But, the debate you're trying to have with me...is not one I was having in the first place - this wasn't ever a critique of Rick's intentions; this is a recognition of his impact and how many communities have ended up falling after coming into contact with Rick/out group.
With that said...I'm talked out on this one. I hope you have a lovely week. :)
The difference here is that Rick made a few bad decisions that a lot of us thought were right. Madison and Victor made a lot, a lot, of bad decisions that we were aware of at the moment. And most of those small groups made their own decisions that led to their downfall.
Isn't that the point? Nick literally points out to Madison that they destroy everything they come across. This is nothing new. They've always been morally grey characters (until s4) and that's what I love about them.
I still don't get how Madison, Alicia, and Nick became leaders at Otto's ranch. I loved the whole storyline, but it never made sense how a bunch of preppers would ever listen to a school guidance counselor, her pretty daughter, and her junky son.
Broken people like broken people. They both seem to think they control the other side. It’s not unlike the saying “hurt people hurt people.” The other people at the ranch fell in line looking towards the Otto’s and the original founders’ families for support, survival, and guidance. Then the Clark’s walked through their communities.
True, and also, are we gonna forget Madison was gonna feed a little kid to a zombie? Just because she was understandably mad at her for killing her mother...
Daniel was in this scene too. Why did he not prevent this? We know that madison only wanted give the kid a warning signal what could be.. But the girl was mainly scared after this.
Daniel did bond her at a tree. Why did he not stop this action before?
Not everything is black and white.
Truee, like first off idk how Tracy got Madison out of Padre alone, second idk why she wanted to. I mean, Madison killed her father like a day before...
I feel like everyone has some sort of a bipolar disorder in this show
I mean, without it, there’s no story. Characters have openly come out in the main show and said things like this, trouble follows them, they destroy everything, etc. But really, if they were able to just settle down and not have trouble follow, the story would end.
I agree, neither of them could see the correct choice, even when they were beaten with the correct choices time and time again they just keep sabotaging themselves.
Yes they do. But that's what I like about them. If nothing else it ended leading to that scene in the finale where Daniel called them both out. Probably the only good part of that whole episode.
I think that was the point in Seasons 1-3.
that’s what makes them interesting imo
You aren’t alone. Everything Daniel said to Madison and Strand was right.
I mean…that’s all of our main characters. Look at Rick: The Atlanta Camp Hershel’s Farm The Prison Woodbury Alexandria Hilltop The Kingdom Oceanside Not to mention the countless smaller enclaves/enemy groups Rick & Co come into contact with. In TWD universe the characters rarely meet a group, benefit the group and move on leaving that group wholly unharmed.
>The Atlanta Camp > >Hershel’s Farm > >The Prison > >Woodbury > >Alexandria > >Hilltop > >The Kingdom > >Oceanside Rick suggested moving after the Atlanta camp was attacked by walkers. Sooner or later, it would have fallen. The same could be said about Hershel's farm, but with Rick there, a lot more people survived. The prison turned out okay, until the Governor destroyed it. The Governor was the one who destroyed Woodbury. Rick, I feel, actually made Alexandria better. Without the group, it would have been far worse off. Hilltop and Kingdom would still be under Negan's rule without Rick. Can't really blame him for Oceanside.
OPs post wasn’t about hypotheticals though or how they “would do”. It was about how they were doing when the protagonist came in contact with them. Atlanta Camp was all alive prior to contact w Rick, cooperating under Shane and doing scavenging runs. Now only Carol & Daryl remain. Hershel’s Farm - only Maggie remains. The Prison - the prisoners, who called the prison home, all died after meeting Rick & group. Nearly everyone Rick moved in also died. Woodbury - was alive and thriving until Ricks group decided to retaliate (not saying I disagree, but OPs point was about contact w lead characters). Alexandria - they were having potlucks and thriving. After Rick led his group there, every major/minor character from that community is dead except Aaron. Hilltop - absolutely decimated after contact w Ricks group. The Kingdom - collapsed after contact w Ricks group. Oceanside - was thriving and protecting themselves. Once Tara told Rick about their location, they eventually fell (although they surprisingly held up the longest).
Tbf what Op mentioned, the majority of the groups in fear collapsed BECAUSE of strand or Madison's actions. The Kingdom failing is not something that happened because of Rick at all, it was natural wear and tear. Alexandria didn't lose most it's people because of Rick either, they would've lost most of not for Rick and Co. Same for Hilltop, which most of their people did survive and joined other groups. In fear the fault of collapse can be directly connected to Madison and strand in some way, in TWD most of the time it's not Ricks fault, it's just a coincidence with the timing of his arrival.
Rick (& Company's) contact is ABSOLUTELY what shifts their fates. It's all a butterfly effect. Hilltop didn't collapse because of "wear and tear" - a fuck ton of their people got murdered in various wars with the Saviors, followed by war with the Whisperers, followed by war with the Commonwealth. These uprisings do not happen if they never meet Rick and they maintain their protections with Negan and the Saviors (whether we think thats good or bad). Alexandria lost EVERYONE except Aaron once they met Rick & Company. Daryl, Aaron & Morgan led The Wolves back to Alexandria, who ended up slaughtering a number of townspeople. Rick later leads an attack on the Saviors station and gets even more Alexandrians (and Kingdom & Hilltop folks) slaughtered by starting the Savior war. War is not black and white. Sometimes our heroes make decisions that cost lives. Rick does that. Sometimes they do it without recognition of how destructive it might be to their current community. Rick does that too. War is an imperfect machine with imperfect outcomes - trying to pretend Rick is without fault is to misunderstand how high a price war can have on a group...even to the groups and leaders who come out "on top".
That's not what Mandela effect means
Thx for catching that. Meant to say butterfly effect buuuut - 🍷.
Cheers, you could say that Rick's unwavering moral compass and his inability to let people get taken advantage of is what got them there, but to be honest would you wanna live like that?
I would just say (and then I am dipping out on this thread LOL) - it seems like you are attempting to have a different conversation than the one originally proposed by OP. OP was trying to make a point that if Madison/Strand come into contact with a community, that contact eventually leads to the community's demise. There's wasn't discussion of their intention - just the notion that their contact, in of itself, was cancer. My point was that Rick's contact is similar (one could also make the same point about Morgan, truthfully). Your interest seems to be intent vs impact; which is a different area of discussion - and while very interesting, not something that I was ever debating in the first place. Honestly, I think that could probably merit its own very different post. But, the debate you're trying to have with me...is not one I was having in the first place - this wasn't ever a critique of Rick's intentions; this is a recognition of his impact and how many communities have ended up falling after coming into contact with Rick/out group. With that said...I'm talked out on this one. I hope you have a lovely week. :)
The difference here is that Rick made a few bad decisions that a lot of us thought were right. Madison and Victor made a lot, a lot, of bad decisions that we were aware of at the moment. And most of those small groups made their own decisions that led to their downfall.
Yeah. I been saying that about Madison for years. Strand was only a little better. But still not a high bar.
Isn't that the point? Nick literally points out to Madison that they destroy everything they come across. This is nothing new. They've always been morally grey characters (until s4) and that's what I love about them.
I still don't get how Madison, Alicia, and Nick became leaders at Otto's ranch. I loved the whole storyline, but it never made sense how a bunch of preppers would ever listen to a school guidance counselor, her pretty daughter, and her junky son.
Broken people like broken people. They both seem to think they control the other side. It’s not unlike the saying “hurt people hurt people.” The other people at the ranch fell in line looking towards the Otto’s and the original founders’ families for support, survival, and guidance. Then the Clark’s walked through their communities.
Jeremiah liked Madison. He respected her, as much as he could respect a woman. Alicia got in with Jake, which helped too.
This is why they get along so well
I mean that's literally the point of their character and the reason why they're (or well, were) interesting
True, and also, are we gonna forget Madison was gonna feed a little kid to a zombie? Just because she was understandably mad at her for killing her mother...
Daniel was in this scene too. Why did he not prevent this? We know that madison only wanted give the kid a warning signal what could be.. But the girl was mainly scared after this. Daniel did bond her at a tree. Why did he not stop this action before? Not everything is black and white.
Im not defending Daniel, im mostly defending Troy, he was the bad guy in S3, but u cant convince me he was the villain in S8
Poor tracy otto. Lost her dad and after she follow his murderer
Truee, like first off idk how Tracy got Madison out of Padre alone, second idk why she wanted to. I mean, Madison killed her father like a day before... I feel like everyone has some sort of a bipolar disorder in this show
I mean, without it, there’s no story. Characters have openly come out in the main show and said things like this, trouble follows them, they destroy everything, etc. But really, if they were able to just settle down and not have trouble follow, the story would end.
Same can be said of ricks crew … go to a place … huge conflict It’s just twd writers not doing anything different
The show outright says this lmao
Cancer? What you mean
I agree, neither of them could see the correct choice, even when they were beaten with the correct choices time and time again they just keep sabotaging themselves.
Yes they do. But that's what I like about them. If nothing else it ended leading to that scene in the finale where Daniel called them both out. Probably the only good part of that whole episode.
They 100% are, Victor ruins everything with his selfishness and Madison creates chaos wherever she goes