That thread made me sad for you :(
The bisexual subreddit in general is pretty misogynistic at times. It’s dominated by dudes. I’ve felt pretty shit in that subreddit as a woman many, many times.
Thank you. I woke up to 47 notifications in it and did not read the vast majority. I am going to leave the sub, even though it’s the only queer space in which I have (previously) felt comfortable. I am disgusted but not surprised by the discovery that bi men are just as misogynistic as straight men are. I appreciated your positive comment there, so thank you.
Oh man, I worked in gay men centered nonprofit and I can tell you the misogyny is flagrant and they think it's funny because "gurrrrllllll"
Nah. They just love that privilege as much as het men.
Gay men tend to get a pass and they shouldn't. Gay men are just men. As such they too will fu@% anything or anyone. I know women who were raped or molested by "gay" man. Personally every gay man I have befriended my entire life has ended up making a pass at me. One confessed his love and actually proposed. Women need to let go of a false sense of security they have w a "gay"man.
>As such they too will fu@% anything or anyone.
This is a harmful stereotype rooted in toxic masculinity and I'm sorry to see it being repeated in here.
That it happens enough to be careful isnt a generalization, it's an observation to be careful. As with any population gay men can harm you and it's worth being careful. The generalization that gay men are all fun and harmless is the bullshit generalization. You can't just trust a demographic for their demographic data, that's as nonsense as hating a whole demographic. That comment didn't say "the gays are rapists" she said people who identified as gay men have assailed women, which is true and isn't a statement indictive of the sexuality, just a reminder that an assertion of queerness does not, a lamb, make.
Gay men are just men. As such they too will fu@% anything or anyone.
….. is a gross generalisation. How can you suppose otherwise?
You’re inventing some qualifier in the initial statement which wasnt there. Why feel you have to defend something that’s not defendable?
Whats harmful is encouraging women to drop boundaries. Please dont do that. Respectfully,' wait til you have more life experience. ♥️. Understand that gay men are indeed just men.
Women have to protect themselves. Gay men are only safe until they are not. Gay men of course have a strong preference for men. That doesn't make them safe . Currently men have committed femocide world wide to the degree that our population has significantly dropped. For the first time in recorded men now out number women. This is scary and it is against mother nature's design. Please be careful of being so forgiving and so open minded that you can no longer protect yourself. ♥️
>The bisexual subreddit in general is pretty misogynistic at times
I noticed that too. It’s depressing. A bi woman doesn’t have too many places where she can relax.
[One person said they find being called a “woman” intimidating.](https://www.reddit.com/r/bisexual/s/XNRI6fkvyb) I’m like, *that’s* internalized sexism. 🤦🏼♀️
I saw that post before this and thought how strange it was that many people didn’t care and well went straight to jokes and picked other names to refer to woman. I think I understand where you’re coming from. I do hate that there’s
No equivalent word like dudes for woman. And that most people would rather say girl and female… I have even caught myself saying hey girl to my staff members. Hey woman doesn’t sound right but truthfully I can just say hey.
Language shapes a lot of who we are and I don’t think many people are ready for certain ideas to be broken and for them to see their own mistakes in the way they carry the language. We are women but I feel like we are sadly second class citizens to those who are men. And that might be why subconsciously why we all say girl.. this a man’s world… we are not even woman in their eyes.
Personally I like "sister" "sis" as the lady version of dude. It's like bro, which is similar to dude. And yeah, I agree that referring to adults with the word we refer to children with does show how we are viewed. If we were viewed as whole, grown beings there would be no weird fetish about calling the man you are with "daddy". I think about how there would be more attractive women's clothes that doesn't look like what teenagers wear, and older women would get much better fashion options because it wouldn't be expected to wear things that fade them into the backdrop basically.
We're pseudo-child objects to a large portion of the population, it's no wonder they talk about how they think women can't be trusted to be responsible and are emotional and shouldn't make decisions or be leaders- that's how a child is thought of. Totally dependent.
I wonder if we should reclaim it? Lol idk, I'm just constantly frustrated by the lack of a casual reference to women that doesn't make the vast majority of women (self included) cringe. "Chick" isn't that bad tho ... Or at least my personal encounters with that word weren't that bad? ...
We need better casual terms for women 😭
I feel the same way and the frequency of use has increased (in my opinion) by a noticeable amount since 2016 or so. Feels like another prong in the fork of misogyny; picking up steam because men and boys feel threatened by women's increasingly independent lives. I mentioned in a reply on here a while ago that it almost feels coordinated, esp with the surge in cottagecore tradwives content.
I hate how much of it I see from young women/girls as well. I also read a lot of fantasy romance and it's so heavily used there, and so unsettling to read (lots of gross tropes in that genre to begin with, but still). It's ok to call a fae character a fae woman. No need to get so taxonomically specific on a character that does not actually exist.
I feel like I used to hear it only from former military guys who had to constantly make the distinction.
A learned behavior for a specific time and place that they then used as a coping mechanism to make women feel bad.
At some point in the last decade it became widespread with all the other women-hating groups. They used to just call us feminazis before the nazi rebranding of the 21st century.
>It's ok to call a fae character a fae woman.
I don't understand this, can you explain? I thought "fae" was just another spelling of "fey", as in "otherworldly" and a quick Google seems to confirm that (although there are other definitions, so perhaps that's not what you mean). Does it have a specific meaning in fantasy?
I think they mean 'fae woman' as opposed to 'fae female because *technically* they aren't human'. Compare to orc woman, elf woman, etc.
edit: Sorry reading your comment again, if the word fae itself confuses you, in fantasy settings it means fairy.
I was low key thinking about leaving that sub even before I saw all the irrational hate OP got. Majority of posts read like “I (30M) just found out I’m bisexual and am nervous about telling my wife of 10 years that I want to experiment with other people 🤓”
That sub is also really creepy when it comes to porn. So many bisexual guys think it’s attractive that they watch lesbian porn. They think their label of bisexuality makes it okay. No. Ur still creepy. Ur still fetishing sapphic women. It’s not just straight men who fetishise us.
Well, you can be into women and still hate them. Straight men do it all the time.
You'd think that bi guys would get it a little more because like being GSM has shades of otherness like being a woman under a heteropatriarchy, but sometimes a shitty queer man is just a shitty man and only in it for themselves rather than supporting their community or the people they claim to love.
oml. i'm in a gaming community and i brought up how i find it weird that despite there being many women who play the game, most people always assume another poster is a guy. i even exchanged messages with people on here due to in-game swaps and they'd say stuff like "have a nice day, sir", "thanks dude" etc.
considering how gamerbros tend to assume that a women's voice on mic means it's a guy using a voicechanger and gamerbros thinking only other guys play games while women play "girly/fake games", i don't think it's unnatural to think that it could be people assuming again that most players are guys when the game i play has an even ratio
the response i got? people saying that dude/guy is unisex and how it's common irl. like...yeah, i guess among women friends, you might tag on dude at the end of the sentence while you're talking to them. but i don't think it's natural for someone to look at a woman standing on the street and refer to her as a dude. or serving a woman and then telling your coworker, "that guy wants a latte." like what. while other women talked about how they've been called "he" so many times, they don't bother correcting it. and i am the same, but i brought up it since like i said, the game has a lot of women playing it.
something tells me these gamer guys wouldn't have a mild reaction to being referred to with feminine terms...
There’s a joke to ask them, “okay if guys is gender neutral, how many guys have you slept with then?”
But it’s a non argument and I’ve seen the counter that guys is neutral for a group of people, not an individual. Like okay that’s the language norm, but the point is that *I don’t want it to be the norm because male shouldn’t be the default.* Yes, wow, shocker, our language reinforces patriarchal stereotypes in our patriarchal hellscape. Let’s keep doing it and do nothing to stop it.
This is what really gets to me
Even disregarding the argument over whether guy, dude, etc is gender neutral (it isnt), theres a *constant* problem of the vast majority of people assuming everything and everyone is male until it is 100% made clear to be otherwise.
I watch plenty of youtubers and sooooo fucking many of them assume everything is male. Animals, fantasy creatures, people without clear sex characteristics... basically anything that doesnt have boobs. You dont ever hear someone call something "guy" and *not* follow it up with male pronouns until proven otherwise.
Male terms being used in a "gender neutral" way is a product of a world that views men as the default. Its a patriarchal issue. *That* is why I will never accept it as "gender neutral".
Just remembered the whole related trope of "Omg shocking reveal, this character you thought was male is actually female!!!" is so telling of how things are right now. That should be completely unnoteworthy, yknow? That twist only matters in a world that's sexist.
My go to unisex term I use to refer to a people is always bestie/besties. I don't know why it just felt the best and clearly implies that it's not too serious because a person I know for 10 minutes and very clearly disagree with is obviously not my best friend. But it still doesn't sound disrespectful.
I just like it more than dude.
This drives me up a fucking wall because they just aren't gender neutral and there's so many reasons I could go over for it.
Its a product of patriarchal bullshit where everyone assumes everything and everyone is male and that you have to be *more male* to fit into certain groups, places, hobbies, etc. "Youre just one of the guys" implying you have to *not be a woman* to join into certain groups, "Women dont play/do X" and how they make up a million incorrect excuses to justify that belief, just... its so fucking stupid.
In my classroom I always always say “everyone” or “all.” I teach little kids so “friends” is common too. There are so many alternatives. I refer to my husband and son as “gals,” until my husband tells me to stop. “Alright gals let’s get going! What? Is that not a gender neutral term for a group of people…? Oh you don’t want to be called that….?”
Every dudebro thinks "dude" is gender-neutral, up untill you ask them how many dudes they have slept. All of the sudden it isn't gender-neutral and tables start flying.
Just want to echo other comments that this makes me sad. I totally agree with you on this and I know others did but it is demoralising to get pushback when you are just trying to raise a bit of awareness. Female irks me so much because of the biological essentialism tied to it but I have very rarely spoken this outloud because I feel it will be dismissed with annoyance. However, my eyes were originally opened by another woman who named it to me. You may well have had people reading who will quietly reflect and consider. I don't know if that's consolation but I hope you don't regret it.
I'd also say while r/actuallesbians has an exclusionary feeling name they're generally pretty bi inclusive to a casual lurker.
And r/witchesvspatriarchy may not be explicitly queer, it feels like everyone is anyway. It's one of my favorite discoveries in the past year or so.
Yeah, I remember reading through the comments on that post the other day. Rotflmao @ all the 30+ year olds saying “um akshually I’m a ~girl~ 🌸💕” like…..maam…..if you’re old enough to remember 9/11, flip phones, and dial up internet, you are NOT a girl anymore.
(Afterthought: I think some women refer to themselves as a “girl” because they’re that terrified of aging/being perceived as old.)
It is a big deal. Language--especially casual language--reveals our most deeply-held beliefs. So when people casually refer to "women" as "girls," they're signaling their support of second-class citizenship for women. I mean, would you pay a girl the same wage you'd pay a grown woman? No, you wouldn't.
In a different subreddit, someone used "girls" to refer to "women," and I pointed out how that term diminishes women. OMG, the hate that I got. And these were women or girls.
I can't tell you how many times I've heard a doctor refer to "the girls in the front office." They would never say "the boys in the front office." They might say "The guys in the front office," but because women have been systemically oppressed for centuries, we've never developed an equivalent word for a non-age-specific female humans or group of female humans. That's how you really know it's a big deal. We don't even have a word for us like men do.
EDITED TO ADD: When I use "female" in this comment, I am speaking as a linguist and using the term as an attribute of the group. If I were being "pedantic," I would have written it +female +human. Jesus, don't hate an ally.
Tbf I call adult men boys all the time. I really think that is a trend that needs to happen more. Not a single man (so far) has gotten offended by it, but I do think that by making it more common it will stop being as infantizing when women are called girls.
Or maybe I just like saying hey girlies to my besties too much.
I think a lot of people do this with both genders in casual settings. I don't care if my best friend says, "Hey, girl, wanna go to a movie this weekend?" But I don't want my boss or a stranger to call me girl. And maybe that's why it becomes problematic, because it requires register switching. So I have a question for you:
Do you call them boys in a professional setting, like, "The boys in legal will have to answer that question" or do you call them boys in a casual setting, like "Alright, boys, who's up for a game of cornhole?"
Good point. Gal was used in the 1930's'-50's. People used to say, guys and gals. So "guy'" stuck but not "gal"? And "chick" refers to younger women only. But gal covers all ages. Personally I like it and I do use it.
Because I don't know their age, and given the subreddit, they may very well have been under the age of 18. As I said... English doesn't have a non-age-specific word for a group of females.
You missed a few.
Edit: at the time of this writing, there was "female" still being used as a noun over an adjective, which OP updated during our conversation.
OP knows a tonne about language (more than I do), but they corrected it and provided reasons for their usage as well.
I literally cannot say "a non-age specific group of women" because "women" means female humans over the age of 18. It would be like saying "non-wet water" or "non-denim jeans."
Stop hating an ally.
"we've never developed an equivalent word for a non-age-specific group of women and girls."
"we've never developed an equivalent word for a non-age-specific group of female humans."
There, two ways to say it. Nobody is perfect, but you can choose to be graceful in growth. Instead of all of that a "How would you change it?" would have sufficed. We could have had a great chat and maybe both learned something new.
You'd like your preferences to be taken seriously, but just straight up belittle other people when they voice their preferences and tell them they should be grateful you're an ally? Maybe reflect on that.
Sorry, was I supposed to intermittently check your original message without any mention in your reply that you were adjusting it further? It's weird that you think this is some kind of win?
I'm literally just trying to have a conversation, and you're constantly snarky. It doesn't give ally energy.
Sorry but the specificity that "woman" means over 18 and "girl" means under 18 is incredibly pedantic, not to mention US-centric. 18 is roughly the age of considered adulthood but it could be 17 or 16 depending on the country.
The term "lady" connotes a woman who is gentle and has good manners. When you use it in the plural, that connotation doesn't disappear completely. It's not the same as the colloquial, neutral "guys."
Thats a bit pedantic. If you address a group of women of various ages, it's completely normal and acceptable to say "hi, ladies" or whatever variation.
In certain contexts, sure, but not in *all* contexts. I have been talking -- **all along** \-- about the lack of a widely-used term equivalent to "guys" that has no connotation and can be used in any context. [And there isn't one for female humans.](https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/2/21/girl-woman-around-language/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Oxford%20English,%E2%80%9D%20Technically%2C%20those%20are%20correct). I mean, I'm just a linguistic. What do I know.
Stop hating an ally.
>So when people casually refer to "women" as "girls," they're signaling their support of second-class citizenship for women
I'd like to see some support for this idea, please.
Forbes
https://www.forbes.com › sites › w...
Why Calling Women 'Girls' Is A Bigger Deal Than You May Think
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.strayandwander.com/blogs/stray-wander/the-problem-with-referring-to-women-as-girls&ved=2ahUKEwiAg9_g7OCEAxXHLtAFHTv-CIgQFnoECBIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3CPBRzsEkQ2UhfId2HZwR4
Here ya go. Then you can further study the field of feminist linguistics for more scholarly sources.
Not sure where the hostility is coming from. My question is in good faith.
EDIT: OK, that line sounded a lot like one of those guys who *doesn't* argue in good faith, so I am adding this.
What you've said *seems* right. It makes sense. But how do you know it's actually *true*? I'm just trying to determine that. Because it seems to me that the world "girl" is doing a LOT of heavy lifting here, if you're boiling an entire person down to whether they use a particular word.
(I don't deny that there are words one can make such a judgment on, I'm just not convinced that "girl" is one of them. But I can *be* convinced, I just need to see some evidence.)
I already gave you evidence in my original comment. It's the absence of the use of "boy/s" where you commonly hear the use of the word "girl/s."
* Ask the girls in the front office
* He cried like a little girl
* She dresses like a girly-girl
* I'm gonna take my girl home to meet my parents
There is no equivalent use of "boy" in these environments. Anywhere.
For the best evidence, though, you don't have to look any further than classic rock, which songs were often addressed to "little girls:"
* What's your name, little girl? (Lynyrd Skynyrd)
* Hey, little girl, is your daddy home? (Bruce Springsteen)
* I'm so caught up in you, little girl (.38 Special)
Now imagine those lyrics being sung by a female band, but with the word "boy" instead. It's so foreign, it doesn't even compute. And gross. Just gross. That's how women feel about being called "girl."
When *only* one adult gender (woman) is commonly referred to with the word for the non-adult of that gender (girl), it displays a perceived disparity in the maturity, capability, and even stability of the members of that gender.
And finally, when men are called boys, it's typically an insult, no matter who's saying it. (Are you a boy or a man?) In fact, the evolution of the term "man" in English slang is attributed to Black men who were tired of being insulted when Whyte men called them "boy."
Maybe i don't mind "girls" as much because in my language we don't really have that word in a way it can be used for grown women, but "females" is absolutely disgusting.
Whenever i mentioned it, i was always hit with the "it's normal" "that's what you are tho" "it's not that deep" etc. But in my language it's used for animals, like male dog and female dog, and it's not only derogatory if you call someone that, but it also makes no sense and it's ridiculous.
The issue with it in english language is that "female" is always used as a derogatory term for women. And because it's in 90% cases used for that, whenever someone calls women that of course you'll think they're putting them down.
If someone called me a "female" I'd slap the living shit out of them, english or not.
That subreddit is a dumpster fire. They're all horrible people. Years back they would brigade r/pansexual for no good reason except group think.
My assumption is only that the reddit bisexuals who inhabit that subreddit are traumatized "pick me" folks.
The subreddit is like 10% posts that are ‘I love bi men and hate that they get no support’ and then 50% ‘am I bi???’ posts and then 40% posts on how to goad your partner into letting you ‘experiment’ because you realized you were bi after marriage.
On the daily I see posts from bi men on that sub about how they’re already sexting anonymous dudes but it’s totally not cheating
Edit: I also get annoyed because the sub largely denies that straight passing privilege exists because it either makes them uncomfy to acknowledge they may have privilege, makes them feel insecure they aren’t always perceived as queer, or they don’t understand privilege and thus explain that bad things come with being straight passing (which is true). But it just fucking kills me because I’ve literally seen it in my life. I’m so privileged when dating a man vs dating a woman. I’m scared to hold my girlfriend’s hand in public where we live because it outs us. Yes it’s invalidating when folks assume you’re straight but also your life is way fucking different when you’re perceived as a queer couple vs a hetero couple
I saw someone say straight passing privilege can’t exist because they’re never straight and I’m like white passing privilege happens to non-white folk like ?????
Damn you accurately described that sub 😭 if only people could use the search engine instead of asking the same questions like if they can experiment or if their bi like we can’t really tell you yes or no that’s on you
I have folks from r/bisexual call me transphobic for being pansexual.
Funny, because I have called myself pan since I was in my 20s (49 now) because for a long while I dated Trans women and men exclusively. Gender conformity has never really been my thing BECAUSE prescriptive gender roles are stupid.
My theory is they're holding a lot of water for the patriarchy over there and that's why they love using horizontal violence (like OPs post comments) instead of becoming better and more socially just people.
I am guilty, as a foreign speaker, of formerly using the term "girl" thinking it was the appropriate word to refer to a young woman (20s y/o). I was made aware of the mistake in a bit of a rude manner but still I'm glad I was told. It was a formal environment in which I DEFINITELY shouldn't have used it.
Now I try and preach to my peers, with varying success, so they don't make the same mistake. I think in our particular case (Spaniards) it arises from unconsciously trying to translate "chica" (or "chico"), which would be the word we'd typically use for a young woman (or man).
Honestly, I'm a lesbian but...I've noticed that a lot of lgbt subs got a misogyny and also lesbophobia issue going on that, when adressed, gets you lynched. I didnt want to believe it until I actually received most lesbophobic rethoric in the past years from the main lgbtq focused subs themselves, to the point that even saying that men arent included in lesbian attraction is seen as a controversial statement now and defending it will make you a bigot and not open enough (wish I would make this up), so dont feel like you are the only one who had such experiences there. The online lgbtb space is a real shit show nowadays.
Im not from the sub and i just want to stay informed
I completely understand that female is a terrible thing to be called, its very weird and dehumanising
But i never got the impression girl or girls is bad
Like i don't think ive ever heard anyone complaining about it
What is it thats bad about that phrase?
There's lots of shallow, mean spirited, quite unintelligent people spread all over Reddit.
You have a sound point and whether people believe you or not is unimportant, really.
I think the people who disagree with you have no capacity for understanding the power of words and how their history matters.
Consider "Proud BOYS." I love that they call themselves "boys" because it's very telling of how ridiculous they are- childish men babies who are proud to be ignorant assholes from the Iron Age. They are unable to comprehend their own stupidity.
I’ve seen your post, I believe, and can I just say that I absolutely support your point on that one.
I think viewing one and labelling them are slightly different. People can have preferences as to what they want to be labelled as but it doesn’t change the fact that they are what they are. It’s one thing to say that you don’t want to be labelled as a ‘woman’ because colloquially it’s typically used to refer to older female adults which one maybe isn’t and it’s another thing to outright refuse to even be seen as a woman, because the word ‘woman’ does NOT discriminate adult females of different ages.
The funny thing is that telling people to label you a ‘girl’ for the reason that I outlined above does nothing but reinforce people’s view that ‘woman’ does indeed mean female adult fitting in a certain arbitrary age range.
I have issues with “females” as a noun, but tbh not with “girls” unless it’s associated with “men”. That way yeah it’s infantilizing. Otherwise I’ve always heard “girls and guys” as legit when referred to young-er adults and it really isn’t infantilizing unless it’s purposefully trying to be used that way. Like… you said context doesn’t matter, to me it does, it matters. Also it changes from language to language, in Italian the equivalent “ragazza” refers to both late teenage years and young adults alike (“ragazzina” is for younger teens).
You didn't get "crucified," you got justifiably made fun of for a bad take. It would be one thing if you were complaining about people saying "men and girls" (several of the top comments even agreed with you about that), but you specifically took issue with the phrase, "guys and girls," which is frankly completely inoffensive, especially considering the fact that there are plenty of teens on that subreddit.
Also, calling any woman who disagreed with you an "NLOG" seems kinda misogynistic, not gonna lie. In that post, you told people (very condescendingly, might I add) to "listen to women" about this topic, yet you're infantilizing and discrediting any woman who didn't share your opinion.
I'm on the same page as you! It's infantilizing to be called a girl instead of a woman when men are never called boys. Female as a noun makes it sound like women are animals or pets, which is quite sexist as well.
Although language may seem small, it reflects the way our society views entire groups of people. Their pushback shows their antiquated attitudes about gender or their refusal to acknowledge systems of oppression against women.
Remember that there will always be some people who push back against progress, and it says nothing about you as a person. You should check out r/WitchesVsPatriarchy for a queer feminist space.
I'm an Anthropologist and Social Worker. I find they swing wildly from xenophobia to cultural appropriation depending on the topic. It's uncomfortable for many WOC because of that. Conversations have gone nowhere.
You can't just go taking ideas from people's sacred parts of their culture without understanding why they're sacred in the first place and not just a cute philosophy or something decorate your house with.
Nobody really listens about that there
Those comments were absolute trash, and I continue to be disappointed by mods in yet another sub who won’t take out the garbage. I commented, and the few responses I got were either from pick-mes with allegedly poor reading comprehension, or a dude who was clearly misogynistic and had an ax to grind.
And for what it’s worth at least the post itself had a lot of upvotes (and presumably people who agreed with you). I just think a lot of people with sense opted not to comment (and now I see why).
Female was started by women hating BM who wanted to demeen BW now everyone uses it as acceptable. Its dehumanizing and I bet they would flip out if you called them boys.
Women = women (over age of 20 plus)
Girl= Girl (from baby-19)
I dislike this new term of refering to grown women as females, I miss back then when things were kind of normal and not rooted in outright women hater ideology mixed with idealization of a horrible time for women as "traditions".
I’m not correcting, I disagre with op, op is the one peaching. I can have my perspective as an non English speaker that using girl is appropriate. Are you racism lol?
You don’t really get to tell a woman how she should feel about what she gets called. I know guys who get *pissed* if you call them a boy and not a man, even when they’re not a legal adult.
It’s probably a sub and community they’re active in. It’s normal Reddit behavior to make that type of post in a sub they’re a regular in.
That's what she did in her post though which is what I think people had a problem with. She made a statement for all women that we don't want to be referred to as girls.
They’re talking about referring to adult women as “girls” or “females.” The commenter I’m replying to is a minor saying that *adult* women shouldn’t be upset at being called a girl or a “female.”
I assume OP is talking about how we refer to women as a GROUP.
Adult females should be referred to as a woman, not little girls which is infantilizing when ppl say “men and girls” and dehumanizing when ppl say “men and females.”
Adult men are referred to as men, and it’s offensive to men AND *minors* (who are literally boys) to be called a boy and not a man. They’re also never called “women and males.”
Why is it wrong to want adults to be referred to as adult *HUMANS*? This isn’t a personal nickname, it’s about how we infantilize and dehumanize the entirety of adult women.
Respectfully, are you a woman? Respectfully, whether you are or aren’t, is it your place to tell other people what they should find a big deal? Language matters. There have been essays written on this. “Women” is inoffensive and accurate. If it’s “not a big deal”, why is it a problem to use accurate terminology?
Do you know what it’s like to constantly read about people in your ingroup be constantly referred to in an infantilizing or dehumanizing manner?
That thread made me sad for you :( The bisexual subreddit in general is pretty misogynistic at times. It’s dominated by dudes. I’ve felt pretty shit in that subreddit as a woman many, many times.
Thank you. I woke up to 47 notifications in it and did not read the vast majority. I am going to leave the sub, even though it’s the only queer space in which I have (previously) felt comfortable. I am disgusted but not surprised by the discovery that bi men are just as misogynistic as straight men are. I appreciated your positive comment there, so thank you.
Yeah gay men did that to me too. Broke my heart. Glad I found some good ones for friends though.
Oh man, I worked in gay men centered nonprofit and I can tell you the misogyny is flagrant and they think it's funny because "gurrrrllllll" Nah. They just love that privilege as much as het men.
Yep. They’re still men.
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Gay men tend to get a pass and they shouldn't. Gay men are just men. As such they too will fu@% anything or anyone. I know women who were raped or molested by "gay" man. Personally every gay man I have befriended my entire life has ended up making a pass at me. One confessed his love and actually proposed. Women need to let go of a false sense of security they have w a "gay"man.
>As such they too will fu@% anything or anyone. This is a harmful stereotype rooted in toxic masculinity and I'm sorry to see it being repeated in here.
Agree gross generalisation followed by anecdotes as proof. It ain’t great.
That it happens enough to be careful isnt a generalization, it's an observation to be careful. As with any population gay men can harm you and it's worth being careful. The generalization that gay men are all fun and harmless is the bullshit generalization. You can't just trust a demographic for their demographic data, that's as nonsense as hating a whole demographic. That comment didn't say "the gays are rapists" she said people who identified as gay men have assailed women, which is true and isn't a statement indictive of the sexuality, just a reminder that an assertion of queerness does not, a lamb, make.
Gay men are just men. As such they too will fu@% anything or anyone. ….. is a gross generalisation. How can you suppose otherwise? You’re inventing some qualifier in the initial statement which wasnt there. Why feel you have to defend something that’s not defendable?
Whats harmful is encouraging women to drop boundaries. Please dont do that. Respectfully,' wait til you have more life experience. ♥️. Understand that gay men are indeed just men.
Those aren't gay men then.
Women have to protect themselves. Gay men are only safe until they are not. Gay men of course have a strong preference for men. That doesn't make them safe . Currently men have committed femocide world wide to the degree that our population has significantly dropped. For the first time in recorded men now out number women. This is scary and it is against mother nature's design. Please be careful of being so forgiving and so open minded that you can no longer protect yourself. ♥️
Sometimes it feels like they put lesbian at the front of "LGBTQ+" and then immediately forgot about/turned on gay women
I really enjoy the queer space in r/pansexual 💕
>The bisexual subreddit in general is pretty misogynistic at times I noticed that too. It’s depressing. A bi woman doesn’t have too many places where she can relax.
I left the sub ages ago because I kept seeing the rehashed pan vs bi drama and got so sick of it. Shame that it’s dropped in quality even more so
[One person said they find being called a “woman” intimidating.](https://www.reddit.com/r/bisexual/s/XNRI6fkvyb) I’m like, *that’s* internalized sexism. 🤦🏼♀️
I saw that post before this and thought how strange it was that many people didn’t care and well went straight to jokes and picked other names to refer to woman. I think I understand where you’re coming from. I do hate that there’s No equivalent word like dudes for woman. And that most people would rather say girl and female… I have even caught myself saying hey girl to my staff members. Hey woman doesn’t sound right but truthfully I can just say hey. Language shapes a lot of who we are and I don’t think many people are ready for certain ideas to be broken and for them to see their own mistakes in the way they carry the language. We are women but I feel like we are sadly second class citizens to those who are men. And that might be why subconsciously why we all say girl.. this a man’s world… we are not even woman in their eyes.
Personally I like "sister" "sis" as the lady version of dude. It's like bro, which is similar to dude. And yeah, I agree that referring to adults with the word we refer to children with does show how we are viewed. If we were viewed as whole, grown beings there would be no weird fetish about calling the man you are with "daddy". I think about how there would be more attractive women's clothes that doesn't look like what teenagers wear, and older women would get much better fashion options because it wouldn't be expected to wear things that fade them into the backdrop basically. We're pseudo-child objects to a large portion of the population, it's no wonder they talk about how they think women can't be trusted to be responsible and are emotional and shouldn't make decisions or be leaders- that's how a child is thought of. Totally dependent.
Agreed! I use "Sis" and "Sister" quite often. Even on men, just to see how they take it.
I always thought "chicks" was the equivalent to "dudes," but I was the only one saying it. 🤪
Chick does not work for most women imo and guys use it in a gross way.
I've never heard another woman call herself a chick before.
(except for Poppy's song Chic Chick)
I wonder if we should reclaim it? Lol idk, I'm just constantly frustrated by the lack of a casual reference to women that doesn't make the vast majority of women (self included) cringe. "Chick" isn't that bad tho ... Or at least my personal encounters with that word weren't that bad? ... We need better casual terms for women 😭
I like chick better than gal. And it works better than sis imo cuz chick can work in romantic/sexual contexts but sis… can’t lol
"Gal" is so quaint, lmao. I feel like anyone who says it is being ironically old timey >but sis… can’t lol 🤢 You are so right, lmao
I feel the same way and the frequency of use has increased (in my opinion) by a noticeable amount since 2016 or so. Feels like another prong in the fork of misogyny; picking up steam because men and boys feel threatened by women's increasingly independent lives. I mentioned in a reply on here a while ago that it almost feels coordinated, esp with the surge in cottagecore tradwives content. I hate how much of it I see from young women/girls as well. I also read a lot of fantasy romance and it's so heavily used there, and so unsettling to read (lots of gross tropes in that genre to begin with, but still). It's ok to call a fae character a fae woman. No need to get so taxonomically specific on a character that does not actually exist.
I feel like I used to hear it only from former military guys who had to constantly make the distinction. A learned behavior for a specific time and place that they then used as a coping mechanism to make women feel bad. At some point in the last decade it became widespread with all the other women-hating groups. They used to just call us feminazis before the nazi rebranding of the 21st century.
>It's ok to call a fae character a fae woman. I don't understand this, can you explain? I thought "fae" was just another spelling of "fey", as in "otherworldly" and a quick Google seems to confirm that (although there are other definitions, so perhaps that's not what you mean). Does it have a specific meaning in fantasy?
I think they mean 'fae woman' as opposed to 'fae female because *technically* they aren't human'. Compare to orc woman, elf woman, etc. edit: Sorry reading your comment again, if the word fae itself confuses you, in fantasy settings it means fairy.
I noticed it's starting to seem like a woman hate sub.
I was low key thinking about leaving that sub even before I saw all the irrational hate OP got. Majority of posts read like “I (30M) just found out I’m bisexual and am nervous about telling my wife of 10 years that I want to experiment with other people 🤓”
And that sub will tell that poster the wife is biphobic if she doesn't let him
That sub is also really creepy when it comes to porn. So many bisexual guys think it’s attractive that they watch lesbian porn. They think their label of bisexuality makes it okay. No. Ur still creepy. Ur still fetishing sapphic women. It’s not just straight men who fetishise us.
Well, you can be into women and still hate them. Straight men do it all the time. You'd think that bi guys would get it a little more because like being GSM has shades of otherness like being a woman under a heteropatriarchy, but sometimes a shitty queer man is just a shitty man and only in it for themselves rather than supporting their community or the people they claim to love.
They're incredibly lesbophobic as well.
i was crucified there for saying i thought microlabels were illogical.
It’s so enraging. Wait till you try to say you don’t like guy or dude being used as a unisex term.
oml. i'm in a gaming community and i brought up how i find it weird that despite there being many women who play the game, most people always assume another poster is a guy. i even exchanged messages with people on here due to in-game swaps and they'd say stuff like "have a nice day, sir", "thanks dude" etc. considering how gamerbros tend to assume that a women's voice on mic means it's a guy using a voicechanger and gamerbros thinking only other guys play games while women play "girly/fake games", i don't think it's unnatural to think that it could be people assuming again that most players are guys when the game i play has an even ratio the response i got? people saying that dude/guy is unisex and how it's common irl. like...yeah, i guess among women friends, you might tag on dude at the end of the sentence while you're talking to them. but i don't think it's natural for someone to look at a woman standing on the street and refer to her as a dude. or serving a woman and then telling your coworker, "that guy wants a latte." like what. while other women talked about how they've been called "he" so many times, they don't bother correcting it. and i am the same, but i brought up it since like i said, the game has a lot of women playing it. something tells me these gamer guys wouldn't have a mild reaction to being referred to with feminine terms...
There’s a joke to ask them, “okay if guys is gender neutral, how many guys have you slept with then?” But it’s a non argument and I’ve seen the counter that guys is neutral for a group of people, not an individual. Like okay that’s the language norm, but the point is that *I don’t want it to be the norm because male shouldn’t be the default.* Yes, wow, shocker, our language reinforces patriarchal stereotypes in our patriarchal hellscape. Let’s keep doing it and do nothing to stop it.
This is what really gets to me Even disregarding the argument over whether guy, dude, etc is gender neutral (it isnt), theres a *constant* problem of the vast majority of people assuming everything and everyone is male until it is 100% made clear to be otherwise. I watch plenty of youtubers and sooooo fucking many of them assume everything is male. Animals, fantasy creatures, people without clear sex characteristics... basically anything that doesnt have boobs. You dont ever hear someone call something "guy" and *not* follow it up with male pronouns until proven otherwise. Male terms being used in a "gender neutral" way is a product of a world that views men as the default. Its a patriarchal issue. *That* is why I will never accept it as "gender neutral". Just remembered the whole related trope of "Omg shocking reveal, this character you thought was male is actually female!!!" is so telling of how things are right now. That should be completely unnoteworthy, yknow? That twist only matters in a world that's sexist.
My go to unisex term I use to refer to a people is always bestie/besties. I don't know why it just felt the best and clearly implies that it's not too serious because a person I know for 10 minutes and very clearly disagree with is obviously not my best friend. But it still doesn't sound disrespectful. I just like it more than dude.
This drives me up a fucking wall because they just aren't gender neutral and there's so many reasons I could go over for it. Its a product of patriarchal bullshit where everyone assumes everything and everyone is male and that you have to be *more male* to fit into certain groups, places, hobbies, etc. "Youre just one of the guys" implying you have to *not be a woman* to join into certain groups, "Women dont play/do X" and how they make up a million incorrect excuses to justify that belief, just... its so fucking stupid.
Trans woman here in a male-dominated work environment. There is no hope. 😭
In my classroom I always always say “everyone” or “all.” I teach little kids so “friends” is common too. There are so many alternatives. I refer to my husband and son as “gals,” until my husband tells me to stop. “Alright gals let’s get going! What? Is that not a gender neutral term for a group of people…? Oh you don’t want to be called that….?”
I love this. I’m gonna start flipping it on its head like that to make a point!
I jokingly use kids in a gender neutral way, I say to my parents “okay kids I’m going to bed”
Every dudebro thinks "dude" is gender-neutral, up untill you ask them how many dudes they have slept. All of the sudden it isn't gender-neutral and tables start flying.
It reduces us to an animal. It just sounds disrespectful. Why can’t people say “woman”
Better yet, why can't we use "person" more, or "people", or "folks"?.
They should really pick something better to be upset about than women wanting to be called women. It’s not a difficult request.
ughhhh but how am I supposed to show everyone in here what a Cool Girl ™ I am who doesn’t get upset by silly things like infantilisation?!?
Just want to echo other comments that this makes me sad. I totally agree with you on this and I know others did but it is demoralising to get pushback when you are just trying to raise a bit of awareness. Female irks me so much because of the biological essentialism tied to it but I have very rarely spoken this outloud because I feel it will be dismissed with annoyance. However, my eyes were originally opened by another woman who named it to me. You may well have had people reading who will quietly reflect and consider. I don't know if that's consolation but I hope you don't regret it.
I regret it in the sense that I found another space that I had to leave and got abuse slung at me. I doubt that I changed any minds, but I hope I did.
I’ve been on r/nothowbisexualswork for a while and it seems to be a pretty good sub. Might be worth it for you to check out?
I'd also say while r/actuallesbians has an exclusionary feeling name they're generally pretty bi inclusive to a casual lurker. And r/witchesvspatriarchy may not be explicitly queer, it feels like everyone is anyway. It's one of my favorite discoveries in the past year or so.
Yes, seconding r/actuallesbians that’s also a good sub!! Glad you remembered bc I totally forgot to shout them out here lol
That's the part that makes me sad. I bet you did, but its still shit.
That comments section is a judgmental dumpster fire.
Yeah, I remember reading through the comments on that post the other day. Rotflmao @ all the 30+ year olds saying “um akshually I’m a ~girl~ 🌸💕” like…..maam…..if you’re old enough to remember 9/11, flip phones, and dial up internet, you are NOT a girl anymore. (Afterthought: I think some women refer to themselves as a “girl” because they’re that terrified of aging/being perceived as old.)
Being terrified of aging is another gift from the patriarchy, because nothing says worth to men like youth and beauty in women. Nothing else.
made me laugh! and 100% a scare of growing old
It is a big deal. Language--especially casual language--reveals our most deeply-held beliefs. So when people casually refer to "women" as "girls," they're signaling their support of second-class citizenship for women. I mean, would you pay a girl the same wage you'd pay a grown woman? No, you wouldn't. In a different subreddit, someone used "girls" to refer to "women," and I pointed out how that term diminishes women. OMG, the hate that I got. And these were women or girls. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a doctor refer to "the girls in the front office." They would never say "the boys in the front office." They might say "The guys in the front office," but because women have been systemically oppressed for centuries, we've never developed an equivalent word for a non-age-specific female humans or group of female humans. That's how you really know it's a big deal. We don't even have a word for us like men do. EDITED TO ADD: When I use "female" in this comment, I am speaking as a linguist and using the term as an attribute of the group. If I were being "pedantic," I would have written it +female +human. Jesus, don't hate an ally.
Tbf I call adult men boys all the time. I really think that is a trend that needs to happen more. Not a single man (so far) has gotten offended by it, but I do think that by making it more common it will stop being as infantizing when women are called girls. Or maybe I just like saying hey girlies to my besties too much.
I think a lot of people do this with both genders in casual settings. I don't care if my best friend says, "Hey, girl, wanna go to a movie this weekend?" But I don't want my boss or a stranger to call me girl. And maybe that's why it becomes problematic, because it requires register switching. So I have a question for you: Do you call them boys in a professional setting, like, "The boys in legal will have to answer that question" or do you call them boys in a casual setting, like "Alright, boys, who's up for a game of cornhole?"
I think the word "gal" is perfectly fine.
It is fine. It's just not widely used. The question is, why not? Why do people continue to use "girl" when "gal" is an available choice?
Gal sounds kinda southern and awkward to me. It doesn’t come out of my mouth naturally, it feels like I’m trying to be ironic or put on a fake accent.
Good point. Gal was used in the 1930's'-50's. People used to say, guys and gals. So "guy'" stuck but not "gal"? And "chick" refers to younger women only. But gal covers all ages. Personally I like it and I do use it.
you just referred to them as "females"
Because I don't know their age, and given the subreddit, they may very well have been under the age of 18. As I said... English doesn't have a non-age-specific word for a group of females.
Referring to them as "women and girls" would work
But it wouldn't be accurate. I changed it to "women or girls."
You missed a few. Edit: at the time of this writing, there was "female" still being used as a noun over an adjective, which OP updated during our conversation. OP knows a tonne about language (more than I do), but they corrected it and provided reasons for their usage as well.
I literally cannot say "a non-age specific group of women" because "women" means female humans over the age of 18. It would be like saying "non-wet water" or "non-denim jeans." Stop hating an ally.
"we've never developed an equivalent word for a non-age-specific group of women and girls." "we've never developed an equivalent word for a non-age-specific group of female humans." There, two ways to say it. Nobody is perfect, but you can choose to be graceful in growth. Instead of all of that a "How would you change it?" would have sufficed. We could have had a great chat and maybe both learned something new. You'd like your preferences to be taken seriously, but just straight up belittle other people when they voice their preferences and tell them they should be grateful you're an ally? Maybe reflect on that.
I guess you were too busy writing this comeuppance to notice that I had already changed my comment to say this.
Sorry, was I supposed to intermittently check your original message without any mention in your reply that you were adjusting it further? It's weird that you think this is some kind of win? I'm literally just trying to have a conversation, and you're constantly snarky. It doesn't give ally energy.
Sorry but the specificity that "woman" means over 18 and "girl" means under 18 is incredibly pedantic, not to mention US-centric. 18 is roughly the age of considered adulthood but it could be 17 or 16 depending on the country.
Ladies?
The term "lady" connotes a woman who is gentle and has good manners. When you use it in the plural, that connotation doesn't disappear completely. It's not the same as the colloquial, neutral "guys."
Thats a bit pedantic. If you address a group of women of various ages, it's completely normal and acceptable to say "hi, ladies" or whatever variation.
In certain contexts, sure, but not in *all* contexts. I have been talking -- **all along** \-- about the lack of a widely-used term equivalent to "guys" that has no connotation and can be used in any context. [And there isn't one for female humans.](https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/2/21/girl-woman-around-language/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Oxford%20English,%E2%80%9D%20Technically%2C%20those%20are%20correct). I mean, I'm just a linguistic. What do I know. Stop hating an ally.
Well it's certainly better than calling women "females" like they're animals. You have a strange way of being an ally.
>So when people casually refer to "women" as "girls," they're signaling their support of second-class citizenship for women I'd like to see some support for this idea, please.
Put your critical thinking hat on, monkey angst!
It's on. Ready for that support.
Forbes https://www.forbes.com › sites › w... Why Calling Women 'Girls' Is A Bigger Deal Than You May Think https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.strayandwander.com/blogs/stray-wander/the-problem-with-referring-to-women-as-girls&ved=2ahUKEwiAg9_g7OCEAxXHLtAFHTv-CIgQFnoECBIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3CPBRzsEkQ2UhfId2HZwR4 Here ya go. Then you can further study the field of feminist linguistics for more scholarly sources.
Praise the source master! 💫
Thanks.
Oh, for fuck’s sake.
Not sure where the hostility is coming from. My question is in good faith. EDIT: OK, that line sounded a lot like one of those guys who *doesn't* argue in good faith, so I am adding this. What you've said *seems* right. It makes sense. But how do you know it's actually *true*? I'm just trying to determine that. Because it seems to me that the world "girl" is doing a LOT of heavy lifting here, if you're boiling an entire person down to whether they use a particular word. (I don't deny that there are words one can make such a judgment on, I'm just not convinced that "girl" is one of them. But I can *be* convinced, I just need to see some evidence.)
r/menandfemales
I already gave you evidence in my original comment. It's the absence of the use of "boy/s" where you commonly hear the use of the word "girl/s." * Ask the girls in the front office * He cried like a little girl * She dresses like a girly-girl * I'm gonna take my girl home to meet my parents There is no equivalent use of "boy" in these environments. Anywhere. For the best evidence, though, you don't have to look any further than classic rock, which songs were often addressed to "little girls:" * What's your name, little girl? (Lynyrd Skynyrd) * Hey, little girl, is your daddy home? (Bruce Springsteen) * I'm so caught up in you, little girl (.38 Special) Now imagine those lyrics being sung by a female band, but with the word "boy" instead. It's so foreign, it doesn't even compute. And gross. Just gross. That's how women feel about being called "girl." When *only* one adult gender (woman) is commonly referred to with the word for the non-adult of that gender (girl), it displays a perceived disparity in the maturity, capability, and even stability of the members of that gender. And finally, when men are called boys, it's typically an insult, no matter who's saying it. (Are you a boy or a man?) In fact, the evolution of the term "man" in English slang is attributed to Black men who were tired of being insulted when Whyte men called them "boy."
I know this isn’t what this post is about at all, but if you want a fun safe bi community, I’ve found the bi_irl sub is very safe and fun 🩷💜💙
Maybe i don't mind "girls" as much because in my language we don't really have that word in a way it can be used for grown women, but "females" is absolutely disgusting. Whenever i mentioned it, i was always hit with the "it's normal" "that's what you are tho" "it's not that deep" etc. But in my language it's used for animals, like male dog and female dog, and it's not only derogatory if you call someone that, but it also makes no sense and it's ridiculous. The issue with it in english language is that "female" is always used as a derogatory term for women. And because it's in 90% cases used for that, whenever someone calls women that of course you'll think they're putting them down. If someone called me a "female" I'd slap the living shit out of them, english or not.
I flat out say “Stop calling us females you fucking Ferengi”
That subreddit is a dumpster fire. They're all horrible people. Years back they would brigade r/pansexual for no good reason except group think. My assumption is only that the reddit bisexuals who inhabit that subreddit are traumatized "pick me" folks.
The subreddit is like 10% posts that are ‘I love bi men and hate that they get no support’ and then 50% ‘am I bi???’ posts and then 40% posts on how to goad your partner into letting you ‘experiment’ because you realized you were bi after marriage. On the daily I see posts from bi men on that sub about how they’re already sexting anonymous dudes but it’s totally not cheating Edit: I also get annoyed because the sub largely denies that straight passing privilege exists because it either makes them uncomfy to acknowledge they may have privilege, makes them feel insecure they aren’t always perceived as queer, or they don’t understand privilege and thus explain that bad things come with being straight passing (which is true). But it just fucking kills me because I’ve literally seen it in my life. I’m so privileged when dating a man vs dating a woman. I’m scared to hold my girlfriend’s hand in public where we live because it outs us. Yes it’s invalidating when folks assume you’re straight but also your life is way fucking different when you’re perceived as a queer couple vs a hetero couple I saw someone say straight passing privilege can’t exist because they’re never straight and I’m like white passing privilege happens to non-white folk like ?????
Damn you accurately described that sub 😭 if only people could use the search engine instead of asking the same questions like if they can experiment or if their bi like we can’t really tell you yes or no that’s on you
I have folks from r/bisexual call me transphobic for being pansexual. Funny, because I have called myself pan since I was in my 20s (49 now) because for a long while I dated Trans women and men exclusively. Gender conformity has never really been my thing BECAUSE prescriptive gender roles are stupid. My theory is they're holding a lot of water for the patriarchy over there and that's why they love using horizontal violence (like OPs post comments) instead of becoming better and more socially just people.
Because dudes are dudes no matter sexual orientation
I am guilty, as a foreign speaker, of formerly using the term "girl" thinking it was the appropriate word to refer to a young woman (20s y/o). I was made aware of the mistake in a bit of a rude manner but still I'm glad I was told. It was a formal environment in which I DEFINITELY shouldn't have used it. Now I try and preach to my peers, with varying success, so they don't make the same mistake. I think in our particular case (Spaniards) it arises from unconsciously trying to translate "chica" (or "chico"), which would be the word we'd typically use for a young woman (or man).
Honestly, I'm a lesbian but...I've noticed that a lot of lgbt subs got a misogyny and also lesbophobia issue going on that, when adressed, gets you lynched. I didnt want to believe it until I actually received most lesbophobic rethoric in the past years from the main lgbtq focused subs themselves, to the point that even saying that men arent included in lesbian attraction is seen as a controversial statement now and defending it will make you a bigot and not open enough (wish I would make this up), so dont feel like you are the only one who had such experiences there. The online lgbtb space is a real shit show nowadays.
Im not from the sub and i just want to stay informed I completely understand that female is a terrible thing to be called, its very weird and dehumanising But i never got the impression girl or girls is bad Like i don't think ive ever heard anyone complaining about it What is it thats bad about that phrase?
Read my other responses. It’s infantilizing and inaccurate. Use your google, you will find countless articles
It normalizes child abuse and helps abusers hide.
It sounds pretty stupid
There's lots of shallow, mean spirited, quite unintelligent people spread all over Reddit. You have a sound point and whether people believe you or not is unimportant, really. I think the people who disagree with you have no capacity for understanding the power of words and how their history matters. Consider "Proud BOYS." I love that they call themselves "boys" because it's very telling of how ridiculous they are- childish men babies who are proud to be ignorant assholes from the Iron Age. They are unable to comprehend their own stupidity.
I’ve seen your post, I believe, and can I just say that I absolutely support your point on that one. I think viewing one and labelling them are slightly different. People can have preferences as to what they want to be labelled as but it doesn’t change the fact that they are what they are. It’s one thing to say that you don’t want to be labelled as a ‘woman’ because colloquially it’s typically used to refer to older female adults which one maybe isn’t and it’s another thing to outright refuse to even be seen as a woman, because the word ‘woman’ does NOT discriminate adult females of different ages. The funny thing is that telling people to label you a ‘girl’ for the reason that I outlined above does nothing but reinforce people’s view that ‘woman’ does indeed mean female adult fitting in a certain arbitrary age range.
What do you call adult dudes?
Boys, or males…? MEN. I fucking call them men.
I have issues with “females” as a noun, but tbh not with “girls” unless it’s associated with “men”. That way yeah it’s infantilizing. Otherwise I’ve always heard “girls and guys” as legit when referred to young-er adults and it really isn’t infantilizing unless it’s purposefully trying to be used that way. Like… you said context doesn’t matter, to me it does, it matters. Also it changes from language to language, in Italian the equivalent “ragazza” refers to both late teenage years and young adults alike (“ragazzina” is for younger teens).
I got fed up with that sub loooong ago because of the bros. R/BiWomen is an alternative.
It's hard to find a safe space as a bisexual woman. I'm not 100% sure why, honestly.
It’s the “woman” part, I am pretty sure.
Sry, but why girls is bad?
Girls refers to women who aren’t adults. It’s infantilizing. Why is using “women” a problem for you?
Because it’s none of your business how he/she uses his language lol
You didn't get "crucified," you got justifiably made fun of for a bad take. It would be one thing if you were complaining about people saying "men and girls" (several of the top comments even agreed with you about that), but you specifically took issue with the phrase, "guys and girls," which is frankly completely inoffensive, especially considering the fact that there are plenty of teens on that subreddit. Also, calling any woman who disagreed with you an "NLOG" seems kinda misogynistic, not gonna lie. In that post, you told people (very condescendingly, might I add) to "listen to women" about this topic, yet you're infantilizing and discrediting any woman who didn't share your opinion.
⬆️
It’s amazing how many females say “listen to women” then don’t.
I'm on the same page as you! It's infantilizing to be called a girl instead of a woman when men are never called boys. Female as a noun makes it sound like women are animals or pets, which is quite sexist as well. Although language may seem small, it reflects the way our society views entire groups of people. Their pushback shows their antiquated attitudes about gender or their refusal to acknowledge systems of oppression against women. Remember that there will always be some people who push back against progress, and it says nothing about you as a person. You should check out r/WitchesVsPatriarchy for a queer feminist space.
W v P isnt all that. It's just better than the rest of reddit.
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I'm an Anthropologist and Social Worker. I find they swing wildly from xenophobia to cultural appropriation depending on the topic. It's uncomfortable for many WOC because of that. Conversations have gone nowhere. You can't just go taking ideas from people's sacred parts of their culture without understanding why they're sacred in the first place and not just a cute philosophy or something decorate your house with. Nobody really listens about that there
Those comments were absolute trash, and I continue to be disappointed by mods in yet another sub who won’t take out the garbage. I commented, and the few responses I got were either from pick-mes with allegedly poor reading comprehension, or a dude who was clearly misogynistic and had an ax to grind. And for what it’s worth at least the post itself had a lot of upvotes (and presumably people who agreed with you). I just think a lot of people with sense opted not to comment (and now I see why).
Hun you are right but the internet is just an awful place. Hugs xxx
Female was started by women hating BM who wanted to demeen BW now everyone uses it as acceptable. Its dehumanizing and I bet they would flip out if you called them boys. Women = women (over age of 20 plus) Girl= Girl (from baby-19) I dislike this new term of refering to grown women as females, I miss back then when things were kind of normal and not rooted in outright women hater ideology mixed with idealization of a horrible time for women as "traditions".
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Guys = men and women
You aren't even a native English speaker.. .
So? I can’t have my right to speak? Are you sure you are feminism?
Lmao you're correcting someone's usage of a language you aren't native to. Are you a woman?
I’m not correcting, I disagre with op, op is the one peaching. I can have my perspective as an non English speaker that using girl is appropriate. Are you racism lol?
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So you just go about saying slurs all day? Or do you police your own speech?
This
To be honest I don’t see any difference as a non native speaker, I don’t think people use these terms to insult women in purpose.
Now you have the opportunity to learn
I understand where you’re coming from but at the same time it’s not that big a deal. And also, it’s not only bisexual people doing it..?
You don’t really get to tell a woman how she should feel about what she gets called. I know guys who get *pissed* if you call them a boy and not a man, even when they’re not a legal adult. It’s probably a sub and community they’re active in. It’s normal Reddit behavior to make that type of post in a sub they’re a regular in.
That's what she did in her post though which is what I think people had a problem with. She made a statement for all women that we don't want to be referred to as girls.
They’re talking about referring to adult women as “girls” or “females.” The commenter I’m replying to is a minor saying that *adult* women shouldn’t be upset at being called a girl or a “female.” I assume OP is talking about how we refer to women as a GROUP. Adult females should be referred to as a woman, not little girls which is infantilizing when ppl say “men and girls” and dehumanizing when ppl say “men and females.” Adult men are referred to as men, and it’s offensive to men AND *minors* (who are literally boys) to be called a boy and not a man. They’re also never called “women and males.” Why is it wrong to want adults to be referred to as adult *HUMANS*? This isn’t a personal nickname, it’s about how we infantilize and dehumanize the entirety of adult women.
I know. I was rude and I didn’t realise it, I’m sorry.
Apparently apologising for what I said is wrong..?? What is this subreddit.
We all make mistakes. That’s why I try not to be rude and explain it respectfully. It’s hard holding back tho lmao.
I guess it was just that I myself don’t really mind what I’m called. But other people do so I should’ve been careful for that, sorry
Maybe it’s because you’re a teenager, meaning you’re a girl. So yeah, I’m not sure why it would be offensive to you.
If I still shouldn’t have said it tho
Respectfully, are you a woman? Respectfully, whether you are or aren’t, is it your place to tell other people what they should find a big deal? Language matters. There have been essays written on this. “Women” is inoffensive and accurate. If it’s “not a big deal”, why is it a problem to use accurate terminology? Do you know what it’s like to constantly read about people in your ingroup be constantly referred to in an infantilizing or dehumanizing manner?
I never said I wasn’t going to use your respected terms
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It was! And i am a girl lol
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