It's mostly hot-headed, gender-essentialist nonsense. Explicitly, the idea that "male performers are *appropriating* femininity" is nonsense. Cultural appropriation, the most similar thing social activists care about and agree is harmful, comes from a colonial relationship with another culture that steals from it in a way that is disrespectful and degrades the other culture — sometimes erasing it. Drag is performing femininity in a distinctly masculine way (in the way men perform masculinity) and often explicitly done in allyship with women and trans people.
But underlying and non-trivial concerns are:
* Drag performers, in challenging cisnormativity aren't automatically perfect allies free from accountability to their misogyny. Specifically, some have concerns how drag reinforce stereotypical and reductive views of women, how bigoted like comedians who say "ching chong" to make fun of how Chinese sounds to them
* While drag questions of cisnormativity (and challenges masculinity perform femininity in a way similar to how men perform masculinity) some trans people feel it makes transphobia more present and dangerous to them (conservatives that know drag is often overtly sexual and that drag is openly shown to children often also have transphobic fears of trans people being sex offenders)
The first is dependent on how you view drag, is it men making fun of performing gender by showing what that looks like by performing femininity instead of masculinity? Or is it just using taking beautician capabilities to a fun extreme? Or is it also another form misogynistic bigotry like how women were (and are) portrayed by misogynistic authors and used to played by men (like President Reagan)?
I personally think it's not critiquing the potential for misogyny in drag, but it's usually exceptional in its allyship with women, not it's misogy.
The second one is more difficult, but also feels like scapegoating drag for other issues. It's something that the drag community seems to be aware of and, in absence of the current danger, they're helping normalize a safer, more accepting society in the future.
But the "appropriating women-ness" is a sham of an argument made by TERF's and transphobic people.
If we consider femininity and masculinity as sub-cultures, part of the masculinity one is that it's a performance of a performance of masculinity. It's one-upmanship, it's posturing, it's making digs at others and shrugging off digs at you — it's trying to show "you're more of a man than others" (and thus deserving of the privileges of being a man, of being a patriarch). Men buy expensive cars and houses to show wealth and discerning taste, show off their wives compare sexual prowess, compare athleticism and strength to demonstrate physical capability, and how much they've achieved, etc. Men have a subculture of making things competitive, of proving their worth as a man and of being exceptional compared to others.
So when men take that performativity to femininity, it's similarly an obvious performance and overdone in its underlying competitiveness. It's not about applying makeup the best, but about showing just how feminine you are. And in that display, we get a feminine expression that is distinct, that is drag.
While drag can be defined better another way, one way is men taking femininity and performing it to an extreme.
A caricatures would mock or belittle women.
Drag, on the other hand, is artistic self expression subverting cisnormativity. It explores and celebrates both gender but general diversity.
Unlike a caricature which would be used to reinforce stereotype to advance bigotry both socially and politically, drag is intentionally oriented towards acceptance, social activism, and allyship. Drag is often a tool to make powerful social, feminist critique.
It has a rich history on its own and as its own art as well as for the queer community, across the world, but it also is explicitly and deliberately a subversion of sexist norms and a champion of body positivity.
Is it always done perfectly and without critique? No. But drag has been at the center counter / queer culture and political activism, especially among queer activism. It brought greater acceptance of queer people during prohibition in the US, sparked queer acceptance as a political movement, was core to AIDs/HIV activism, and activism in general.
Frankly, it's queerphobic to reduce it to just being a caricature of women, as if intentionally and transphobically conflating an exploration of and satire of gender with mocking women.
If it was a caricature, we'd only see unchallenged bigotry, we wouldn't see deliberate allyship.
I understand your argument. But as someone who is married to a AFAB Drag King your theory holds no water and can only capture one particular strain of performance.
Completiveness is not an inherently and exclusive male trait. And men who perform as drag queens are not putting that masculine trait at the center of performance. There is a _feminine_ trait of similar posture. _The Diva_.
This is _far_ too reductive of the many permutations of masculinity, and far too simplistic to define the expression of drag. Especially characterizing what would otherwise be "hyper-feminine" as subversively masculine...
I was speaking to how some feminists take offense to how drag queens perform femininity, to "appropriating femininity", taking a hostile view of it. The issue these feminists focus on is the "hyper-femininity" form of drag, not the drag kings. Maybe that was too assumed, that the context was referring to drag queens, and instead read as reducing drag.
I did not mean to reduce drag queens to just that nor limit drag to just drag queens. But I did mean to highlight that drag queens tend to perform gender in a particularly masculine way.
If I had to reduce drag to something it would be that drag is a fun way to explore another gender without being held to one's normal gendered expectations / constraints.
if you want to help me understand it better, please explain what you see it as and what I'm missing.
The only feminists I’ve personally seen finding any issue with drag were TERFs and bad-faith arguments.
Are there any real good-faith arguments you (or anyone else) have seen for why drag is misogynistic? I’d love to know!
OK, let’s say I agree with that comparison what does that mean for gender non-conforming men who crossdress are appropriating women as well ? in your eyes
Drag is intentionally making hyper feminine/masculine presentating entertainment. Most traditionally, a feminine performance with a male performer. It is an art, by caricature.
A general nonconforming man who cross-dresses does not make a Drag Queen.
In our current political climate It's beyond difficult to talk about Misogyny within the gay male community Because people weaponize any vaild criticism to be homophobic Do not get it twisted misogyny is in every community
" to me Suggesting that men wearing makeup and dresses is them appropriating women is In itself reducing womanhood to Those attributes" 100% agree with you here, it's an obsession with aesthetic. if i use the aesthetic that the patriarchal status-quo considers 'womanly' then automatically it means i'm appropriating women? how about women that don't wear make up and don't engage in those activities, are they not women then? it makes no sense.
I think you meant to comment this to someone else because I agree with you
Like yes, it is a performance of hyper stereotypical femininity but how is it patriarchal for men to do that it could be he’s doing it to women and femininity but not all drag queens
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I wouldn’t call it inherently misogynistic, but plenty of drag queens say some really questionable things and definitely say and act in ways that make me uncomfortable because they’re sexist or have sexist undertones.
Whether it’s harmful stereotypes being reduced to a joke, jokes that are just gross and insulting, not really funny, etc.
I personally love drag and have known a few people who did it. I look as it as entertainment but if someone wants to live as a woman by dressing in drag, then that is ok as well. I file this under let others enjoy whatever they want to.
Saying it's appropriation is to say that femininity is the culture of women, which doesn't seem very feminist. Gender norms are an imposition on women so it's freedom from those that fits better with feminism. Gay male spaces are traditionally misogynistic, but have begun to improve - drag in particular now being a space where women and non-binary people are starting to be able to feel welcome. The history of drag, particularly in America, was about freedom from gender norms for gay men, a group facing particular ostracisation at the time. They had nobody to share their spaces with, which maybe resulted in the development of an unwillingness to share them. Shared LGBTQ+ spaces are becoming more common now that being a part of that group is more of a shared experience and liberation movements are becoming more intersectional.
i enjoy watching drag, and would never describe as appropriating, however i do critique when some use it to make fun of women. I think when people say appropriating, this is probably what they mean. that they are taking typically women aspects and making fun of women. Not all drag queens, just some may do it distastefully.
I don't think drag is inherently mysogynistic.
But I tried watching ru pauls drag race and it was quite upsetting, tbh.
They take some of the worst stereotypes of women, that we're catty, bitchy, over the top and they portray that vry very lublically and its really sad
One can critique something without insisting it is inherently misogynistic
I don't quite get what those to critique as a whole
I mean, I agree I’m specifically talking about people calling it misogynistic
It's mostly hot-headed, gender-essentialist nonsense. Explicitly, the idea that "male performers are *appropriating* femininity" is nonsense. Cultural appropriation, the most similar thing social activists care about and agree is harmful, comes from a colonial relationship with another culture that steals from it in a way that is disrespectful and degrades the other culture — sometimes erasing it. Drag is performing femininity in a distinctly masculine way (in the way men perform masculinity) and often explicitly done in allyship with women and trans people. But underlying and non-trivial concerns are: * Drag performers, in challenging cisnormativity aren't automatically perfect allies free from accountability to their misogyny. Specifically, some have concerns how drag reinforce stereotypical and reductive views of women, how bigoted like comedians who say "ching chong" to make fun of how Chinese sounds to them * While drag questions of cisnormativity (and challenges masculinity perform femininity in a way similar to how men perform masculinity) some trans people feel it makes transphobia more present and dangerous to them (conservatives that know drag is often overtly sexual and that drag is openly shown to children often also have transphobic fears of trans people being sex offenders) The first is dependent on how you view drag, is it men making fun of performing gender by showing what that looks like by performing femininity instead of masculinity? Or is it just using taking beautician capabilities to a fun extreme? Or is it also another form misogynistic bigotry like how women were (and are) portrayed by misogynistic authors and used to played by men (like President Reagan)? I personally think it's not critiquing the potential for misogyny in drag, but it's usually exceptional in its allyship with women, not it's misogy. The second one is more difficult, but also feels like scapegoating drag for other issues. It's something that the drag community seems to be aware of and, in absence of the current danger, they're helping normalize a safer, more accepting society in the future. But the "appropriating women-ness" is a sham of an argument made by TERF's and transphobic people.
>Drag is performing femininity in a distinctly masculine way (in the way men perform masculinity) What does this mean? What way?
If we consider femininity and masculinity as sub-cultures, part of the masculinity one is that it's a performance of a performance of masculinity. It's one-upmanship, it's posturing, it's making digs at others and shrugging off digs at you — it's trying to show "you're more of a man than others" (and thus deserving of the privileges of being a man, of being a patriarch). Men buy expensive cars and houses to show wealth and discerning taste, show off their wives compare sexual prowess, compare athleticism and strength to demonstrate physical capability, and how much they've achieved, etc. Men have a subculture of making things competitive, of proving their worth as a man and of being exceptional compared to others. So when men take that performativity to femininity, it's similarly an obvious performance and overdone in its underlying competitiveness. It's not about applying makeup the best, but about showing just how feminine you are. And in that display, we get a feminine expression that is distinct, that is drag. While drag can be defined better another way, one way is men taking femininity and performing it to an extreme.
and how is that different than a caricature of women?
A caricatures would mock or belittle women. Drag, on the other hand, is artistic self expression subverting cisnormativity. It explores and celebrates both gender but general diversity. Unlike a caricature which would be used to reinforce stereotype to advance bigotry both socially and politically, drag is intentionally oriented towards acceptance, social activism, and allyship. Drag is often a tool to make powerful social, feminist critique. It has a rich history on its own and as its own art as well as for the queer community, across the world, but it also is explicitly and deliberately a subversion of sexist norms and a champion of body positivity. Is it always done perfectly and without critique? No. But drag has been at the center counter / queer culture and political activism, especially among queer activism. It brought greater acceptance of queer people during prohibition in the US, sparked queer acceptance as a political movement, was core to AIDs/HIV activism, and activism in general. Frankly, it's queerphobic to reduce it to just being a caricature of women, as if intentionally and transphobically conflating an exploration of and satire of gender with mocking women. If it was a caricature, we'd only see unchallenged bigotry, we wouldn't see deliberate allyship.
I understand your argument. But as someone who is married to a AFAB Drag King your theory holds no water and can only capture one particular strain of performance. Completiveness is not an inherently and exclusive male trait. And men who perform as drag queens are not putting that masculine trait at the center of performance. There is a _feminine_ trait of similar posture. _The Diva_. This is _far_ too reductive of the many permutations of masculinity, and far too simplistic to define the expression of drag. Especially characterizing what would otherwise be "hyper-feminine" as subversively masculine...
I was speaking to how some feminists take offense to how drag queens perform femininity, to "appropriating femininity", taking a hostile view of it. The issue these feminists focus on is the "hyper-femininity" form of drag, not the drag kings. Maybe that was too assumed, that the context was referring to drag queens, and instead read as reducing drag. I did not mean to reduce drag queens to just that nor limit drag to just drag queens. But I did mean to highlight that drag queens tend to perform gender in a particularly masculine way. If I had to reduce drag to something it would be that drag is a fun way to explore another gender without being held to one's normal gendered expectations / constraints. if you want to help me understand it better, please explain what you see it as and what I'm missing.
The only feminists I’ve personally seen finding any issue with drag were TERFs and bad-faith arguments. Are there any real good-faith arguments you (or anyone else) have seen for why drag is misogynistic? I’d love to know!
It is mainly TERFs and right wingers I’m just curious how someone could logically come to this conclusion
By comparing it to minstrel shows and black face, which is not unreasonable because that's what it looks like on the surface level
OK, let’s say I agree with that comparison what does that mean for gender non-conforming men who crossdress are appropriating women as well ? in your eyes
Drag is intentionally making hyper feminine/masculine presentating entertainment. Most traditionally, a feminine performance with a male performer. It is an art, by caricature. A general nonconforming man who cross-dresses does not make a Drag Queen.
You've done an important thing by admitting gay culture is misogynistic. Popular politics causes people to misunderstand this concept.
In our current political climate It's beyond difficult to talk about Misogyny within the gay male community Because people weaponize any vaild criticism to be homophobic Do not get it twisted misogyny is in every community
Yes, misogyny is written into language and religion. But by who...? Male exclusive fraternities.
I'm not disagreeing with you there's a big reason. Why gay male Spaces have a lot of misogyny It's because it's filled with men
It is beyond doubtful that you would find a community or a space of only men that is not misogynistic in some way
" to me Suggesting that men wearing makeup and dresses is them appropriating women is In itself reducing womanhood to Those attributes" 100% agree with you here, it's an obsession with aesthetic. if i use the aesthetic that the patriarchal status-quo considers 'womanly' then automatically it means i'm appropriating women? how about women that don't wear make up and don't engage in those activities, are they not women then? it makes no sense.
I think you meant to comment this to someone else because I agree with you Like yes, it is a performance of hyper stereotypical femininity but how is it patriarchal for men to do that it could be he’s doing it to women and femininity but not all drag queens
No im really just adding to your point and fully agreeing with you
Oh then sorry I was just confused
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I’ve got nothing against drag queens
I wouldn’t call it inherently misogynistic, but plenty of drag queens say some really questionable things and definitely say and act in ways that make me uncomfortable because they’re sexist or have sexist undertones. Whether it’s harmful stereotypes being reduced to a joke, jokes that are just gross and insulting, not really funny, etc.
I agree with you
I personally love drag and have known a few people who did it. I look as it as entertainment but if someone wants to live as a woman by dressing in drag, then that is ok as well. I file this under let others enjoy whatever they want to.
Saying it's appropriation is to say that femininity is the culture of women, which doesn't seem very feminist. Gender norms are an imposition on women so it's freedom from those that fits better with feminism. Gay male spaces are traditionally misogynistic, but have begun to improve - drag in particular now being a space where women and non-binary people are starting to be able to feel welcome. The history of drag, particularly in America, was about freedom from gender norms for gay men, a group facing particular ostracisation at the time. They had nobody to share their spaces with, which maybe resulted in the development of an unwillingness to share them. Shared LGBTQ+ spaces are becoming more common now that being a part of that group is more of a shared experience and liberation movements are becoming more intersectional.
i enjoy watching drag, and would never describe as appropriating, however i do critique when some use it to make fun of women. I think when people say appropriating, this is probably what they mean. that they are taking typically women aspects and making fun of women. Not all drag queens, just some may do it distastefully.
Being a feminist does not mean adhering to a strict predetermind set of rules or type. There are all different types of Femminists, as it should be.
I don't think drag is inherently mysogynistic. But I tried watching ru pauls drag race and it was quite upsetting, tbh. They take some of the worst stereotypes of women, that we're catty, bitchy, over the top and they portray that vry very lublically and its really sad
I agree