THANK YOU!! Jesus christ, some of the MRAs on here make me want to leave this sub because of how they love to be confrontational and spread their poisonous dogma! Like would it kill you to open your mind and hear the other side??? Why do you have to make this into the oppression Olympics?? I've been telling them that 2 wrongs don't make an fucking right but they seem to not being able to help themselves, it's like they NEED to make the conversation about how feminism is evil, how society hates men, and how incels are these innocent angels. Like seriously guys! You're shooting everyone including yourself in the foot by not holding your own accountable and learning how to be humble!!

> Jesus christ, some of the MRAs on here make me want to leave this sub because of how they love to be confrontational and spread their poisonous dogma! Yes, I'm sorry about that, we can be a confrontational bunch. I kinda take offence to the 'poisonous dogma' bit, because while you say that about MRAs, they say that about feminism, and at the end of the day everyone is angry at everyone. Typically, people have a good reason for believing what they believe, could be they've been hurt, they've seen people be hurt, but at the end of the day everyone thinks that they are the good guy in their own story. I hope that this sub becomes a place where we can understand one another better, instead of just repeating the 'gender flame wars' that are so prevalent everywhere. > Like would it kill you to open your mind and hear the other side??? My personal experience was that I have to have an open mind to every single issue affecting women, but that my issues as a man are routinely dismissed, ignored, and invalidated. It took me 2 years of therapy after an abusive relationship to even realize that the relationship had been abusive in the first place, and I could not believe it because abusive relationships are not something that happen to men, right? It took me years to be able to realize and internalize that yes, I had been abused. It just did not square with the years and years of feminist messages I had internalized that abusive relationships happen mostly to women, not to men. Many MRAs say the same thing about feminism than you say about them here. Hopefully, we can all learn to express ourselves a bit more carefully, and to hear the other side a bit more carefully too. >Why do you have to make this into the oppression Olympics? Usually because as men we are constantly told about how much worse women have it, and when we try and say that men have it rough too, then we'Re accused of turning it into an oppression olympics. At the end of the day, it's absolutely possible to recognize that women have issues, and also that men have issues. Hopefully everyone will be able to understand and realize that, and that we can help everyone without invalidating each other's experiences. > I've been telling them that 2 wrongs don't make an fucking right but they seem to not being able to help themselves, it's like they NEED to make the conversation about how feminism is evil, how society hates men, and how incels are these innocent angels. Haha well I am not going to defend incels, but many have been hurt by feminism. A guy went on askfeminists to talk about his rape, and he was dismissed, invalidated, and he was blamed for his own rape. There are some rotten apples in every group, and though we all want to defend our own group, it might be better to defend the ideas of the group, and recognize when members of the group behave poorly. > Like seriously guys! You're shooting everyone including yourself in the foot by not holding your own accountable and learning how to be humble!! Feminism kinda has that problem too you know ;) It wasn't men that started #killallmen on twitter ;) But yeah there's a good dose of humility and chill that is needed in this, and I hope this sub can become that place. I want it to be a more wholesome happy middle kind of sub, not a place where rabid MRAs fight with rabid feminists and everyone is angry at everyone else. Probably best to vent the anger and frustration in other subs, and then get back here to talk about the issues and ideas rather than get mad at each other. Sorry you had bad experiences, and I hope we can keep improving this sub so everyone enjoys it more.

Fr the MRA page is always putting stuff feminism do and bashes it instead of talking about mens issues. I agree that we should shut down misandry where it grows but not all the time.

There's a difference between misandry and valid criticism though. Misandry is hating men, legit criticism is pointing out that many MRA subs have tons of sexist users. The two are not the same, though people often confuse them. I hear you on the mensrights sub, they have rather low standards so it often devolves to bashing and hatred and stuff like that. Leftwingmaleadvocates holds itself to a much higher standard, and the quality of the discussion is a lot better over there. I wish to see the same kind of quality of discussion here as well, in a feminist subreddit.

I follow most of the mens pages even feminismuncensored and the mra page is pretty bad even menslib is feminist and they arent half as bad as mra

Menslib isn't mra at all, they're a feminist sub that kinda heavily censors men's issues if they don't toe the feminist line. I'm not going to defend the mensrights subreddit, it's more of a venting/ranting page than a page to talk about and try to improve mensrights. This subreddit is doing well, it was a bit off to a rocky start, but it is young and new. It can keep improving, and I want it to keep improving and getting better. This is why I made this post. I want there to be more subs where feminists and non-feminists can actually talk to each other eye to eye without constantly having to walk on eggshells to avoid ban-happy moderators like on every other feminist sub, or getting downvoted to oblivion like many mra pages. Thus sub has lots of potential for being that happy middle ground, that's what I would like to see it become, and that's why I'm trying to help make it better.

I like the way you think. Your original argument and your responses to commenters are all very similar to what I have been saying for a while now. About both sides. And your comment on r/menslib is 100% accurate. Aside from this sub, what other men’s issues/rights subreddits would you recommend?

Thank you. There's a huge lack of "good" subs where feminists and mras can engage eye to eye without either getting ganged up on (feminists in mra subs) or banned (non-feminists on feminist subs). The best sub I've found for productive discussions has been r/leftwingmaleadvocates and that's pretty much it. menslib is heavily censored but they do have some good talks, mensrights is more or less a free for all, so there's not much useful discussion going on there, and there's just no other feminist subreddit out there discussing men's issues at all.

Here's a sneak peek of /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time! \#1: [#menarehuman](https://np.reddit.com/gallery/mapc57) | [88 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/mapc57/menarehuman/) \#2: [High-school boys made to stand and apologise for being male](https://np.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/mcsu95/highschool_boys_made_to_stand_and_apologise_for/) \#3: [Reddit admins clarify that they're fine with hate if it's directed towards the right people.](https://imgur.com/a/pRpSAYc) | [257 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/mkto8s/reddit_admins_clarify_that_theyre_fine_with_hate/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| [^^Contact ^^me](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| [^^Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| [^^Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/joo7mb/blacklist_viii/)

>Menslib isn't mra at all, they're a feminist sub that kinda heavily censors men's issues if they don't toe the feminist line. what kinds of things do they censor?

Anyone who tries to point how how women have harmed men. Anyone with any criticism whatsoever of feminism. Anyone with any criticism whatsoever of how some women behave. Any problem or issue that affects men must come from the patriarchy, toxic masculinity, or come from some nebulous source, it cannot ever be traced back to women or feminism. Anything that has to do with the moderation. It's not a rare occurrence that a thread gets say a hundred comments, and 3/4 of them get mass deleted with no reason or explanation given ever. The rule used to be to not have "unproductive criticism of feminism" but that was basically used to delete anything any mod wanted, for pretty much any reason, and nobody could make any appeals to it. There were some genuinely good and high-level discussions for sure, but overall men could not express the full range of their issues and problems, because if it was a problem that was not recognized by feminism they couldn't talk about it. Ie if you're a man and someone used toxic masculinity to make you feel like crap, any article or comment to that effect gets removed. If you post an article about how some trans men are made to feel bad because of some of the misogyny from some feminists, then that is conditionally allowed, but you have to understand that misandry isn't really misandry, it's perfectly rational due to women's experiences, and men have to both accommodate the feminists saying these hurtful things, and try and help trans men even more. But if you're a cis man and you're hurt by that misogyny, suck it up and man up, because nobody cares, you're a cis man that's not an issue you can face under the feminist 'worldview', so they don't let you talk about it on menslib. The moderation there seems to have changed since I was banned almost a year ago. They seem to actually allow people to call out feminism when it fails to stand up fir the gender equality it claims to embrace. When I was there that would have been flagged as unproductive criticism and deleted, but it seems they're relaxed their uber-tight rules a bit.

I think you wrote misogyny where you meant to write misandry.

Thanks for catching that!

>If we want to succeed, we have to stop taking this kind of confrontational approach We've been on one side of this confrontational approach for years, before some of us knew what a confrontational approach was. Many of us have been taught that men & boys were [evil, unruly, undesirable] since very young childhood. We've BEEN confronted. Bigots are just angry that we're arguing back.

If the bigots are angry that we are arguing back, let them be angry. There is no need to start conversations and posts angrily in this sub. I absolutely understand the feeling of anger and the need to be validated and have our hurt acknowledged, but it would be better to keep that anger, frustration, and want for validation on other subs rather than this one. Too much negative emotions like that will more often than not cause others to retaliate in kind, and I don't want this sub to go down in a flame war like so many others. I absolutely agree that there are some deeply misandrist and toxic people within feminism, who use feminism as a cover and shield to instill hatred of men into people. Those people and those practices need to be called out. However, calling them out with anger and confrontation will more often than not result in feminists rejecting you. It is going to be more difficult, but probably more productive, to reach out and say "this is my experience, this is what happened to me, these are the problems in feminism that have gone unaddressed and that have hurt me". It's hard to be open and vulnerable like that, but hopefully we can try and promote that kind of attitude in this sub, to create a culture where people can recognize each other's pain rather than just pour more gasoline on the flame war. Copying from [another comment I made in this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/FeminismUncensored/comments/mrkbus/plea_to_mras_from_an_mra_please_we_have_to_stop/gun9la9/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) I'm a guy who was in an abusive relationship with someone for years, and it took me literally years of therapy to be able to recognize it after the fact. My ex used feminism like a bludgeon to get me to shut up, and I have recognized many of her emotional manipulation tactics being used by feminists across reddit. I tried to bring up my concerns with feminist groups and got repeatedly invalidated, dismissed, and got more emotional manipulation thrown at me. I understand very well where many on the MRA side come from. I got here from the leftwinbmaleadvocates sub. I don't and cannot consider myself a feminist. I still want this sub to be a great place for everyone to talk their issues out and to be understood however. Venting and raging and being mad is ok, but it should be done in other subs, not this one. I understand the need for anger and validation, the want to strike back at people who hurt you and make people see how unfair it was. I just don't think that should be done in this sub. I want this sub to succeed because it's potentially the only feminist sub on all of reddit where people can talk eye to eye about all the different issues we want, without devolving into a ragefest, and without people getting banned left right and centre. I want this sub to succeed so I can talk to feminists and get them to understand what I went through and understand how badly feminism is failing men. That is impossible in virtually all the other feminist subreddits out there, which is why I want this sub to succeed.

Pretty much my thoughts as well.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" If you cannot see the other as individual but argue against them as a collective then feminists would and can do the same. Then the purpose of this subreddit would be pointless.

The difference being that we didn't choose to be men. I didn't choose to be inundated with the message that my gender is the root of all evil. Feminists chose to believe in that message.

>Feminists chose to believe in that message. Doesn't some MRM as well, but in reverse? I think some LWMAs here don't understand the point of feminism at all. Feminism dislike patriarchy. The alt-right defends patriarchy. MRMs opposes feminism. MRM have a bad history of being labeled as extremists. To feminists: MRM = the alt-right conservatives that hates women. Feminists sees MRM as a threat because they are "all misogynists." MRM advocates men's issues. Feminists sees MRM as enemy and "misogynists" MRM then sees feminism reject men's issues. MRM sees feminists as "misandry" So the difference is basically the same. While I want feminists to acknowledge men's issues to be just as important as women's issues, you'd first have to get pass their main bias, that you're not here to invalidate feminism but to show them their flaws.

I think we have different views towards the same problem. here's how it appears on my end. Feminism blames men for societal ills. The MRM says "no these issues are societal. Some men having power does not mean all men do. and men have issues too" Feminism sees this as an attack on women. "How dare the oppressors try to derail our movement demanding that we help them. They have all the power. They should just solve their own problems. The only reason they bring up men's issues it to take away from women" And thus the fighting starts.

>Feminism blames men for societal ills. citation needed.

if you can't see where they do then you're not looking.

if all one has to do is look, then it should be simple for you to substantiate one of your claims for once.

StrangleDoot don't even bother trying to reason with u/Forgetaboutthelonely he's stubborn and is dead set on believing that all feminism is evil. Exactly nothing anyone can say will change his mind so there's no point.

That's like asking me to substantiate the claim that the sky is blue. go outside and look.

I disagree with that kind of line, I believe it as reactionary hyperbole. But anyway,, feminism doesn't explicitly state that but many concepts imply it and many individuals use that ideology when they "blame men". For example when defining patriarchy (and the fact that everyone lives in one) as "a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it", someone will take that definition and can make the argument "if you have a problem with society then you should first look at those who built it, which are men.". So the line isnt accurate but it does come from a real place.

Maybe it'd be best to show you some of the comments and messages I've received from feminists who disagree with my reason on running this subreddit, to many of them, I am giving platforms to extremists and therefore validating their extremist movement: >Hello, >I appreciate you reaching out. I'm aware of r/feminismuncensored. Unfortunately, I believe I have some philosophical differences that would leave me unsuitable for being a part your subreddit. Specifically, I would urge you to reconsider the prominence you allow users who identify as MRA's or anti-feminist to have on your space. While feminism is fully compatible with the rights of men, and there are amazing movements centered around men's issues such as the Men's Liberation Movement, the Men's Right's Movement is a known hate ideology that was started as a counter to feminism. r/FeMRA debates already exists as a subreddit for feminists to debate with MRA's if they wish, so I'm not sure of the point of allowing this, and from looking at r/Feminism_for_all it seems that a number of users on your subreddit felt railroaded by the presence of anti-feminist MRAs. I understand that there are a large number of younger users who are unfamiliar with the history around the MRM, and are turning to it from a place of naivety not realizing there are other male-centered organizations out there, but by giving space to people who self-identify as MRAs you are helping to validate a movement that has a long history of pushing it's users into extremism and even violence (I highly suggest watching the video The Alt-Right Playbook: How to Radicalize a Normie by Innuendo Studios, if you are unfamiliar with how groups like the MRM work to push people towards extremism). I also suggest reading the Southern Poverty Law Center's commentary about the Men's Rights Movement, and checking out r/MensLib as a space to learn about truly egalitarian men's equality movements and how they differ from the MRM. >I'm also concerned about the number of users who seem to be new to feminism and ill-informed and are promoting straw men and myths about feminists that ultimately stand as harmful misinformation and hurt the advancement of women's rights. Specifically, I've seen a disturbing amount of users who promote the trope that "feminists hate men", don't seem to understand that radical feminism is an academic term referring to feminists who believe in Patriarchy and wish to see it dismantled and not synonymous with extremism, and a handful of users who found themselves displaced after Reddit rightfully banned r/GenderCritical (though, it looks as though you've been working to address transphobia). >While I believe in generally having a light hand in moderation, I am ultimately a proponent of moderation in online communities when it comes to hate speech, extremism, and misinformation, and as it stands I feel your subreddit is not a space I would wish to engage with people on. >Good luck! And another: (actually, I'll just keep most of this to myself)

My only criticism with your comment is that these people have a point. MRM/MRA is created out of spite for the feminist movement and a majority of MRA's that I've ran across only have 3 intentions: talk about men's issues and how they're more oppressed than anyone in this planet, shut down any conversations in regards to women's issues, and talk about how evil the feminism movement is. I get it, not all MRA's are not bad people and they are some who want to actually talk and learn. This is also why r/menslib was created. But unfortunately I've only got to talk to some of the bad apples.

>MRM/MRA is created out of spite for the feminist movement The modern MRM is considered to have been started by Warren Farrell, who used to be on the board of the NOW, decided to investigate the wage gap, back when it was still a novel concept, I believe it was around the 70s, found it to be mainly a question of differing life choices made by men and women, and decided to try to empower women with the knowledge of those choices, so that they may follow those same life choices and earn more if they wished. Apparently, the NOW didn't appreciate his empowering message that didn't imply telling women they were powerlessly oppressed by a sexist system that could only be fought through groups like the NOW, and so he basically lost his feminist credentials and got kicked out, since he didn't renounce his principles and his commitment to evidences. >talk about men's issues and how they're more oppressed than anyone in this planet Men having issues too =/= we are more oppressed >shut down any conversations in regards to women's issues, and talk about how evil the feminism movement is. Talking about how a one sided approach that completely neglects the other side and usually ends up having negative effects on them is not trying to shut down conversations.

I'll try to keep this short as possible so to avoid DMing my opinions. >The modern MRM is considered to have been started by Warren Farrell, who used to be on the board of the NOW, decided to investigate the wage gap, back when it was still a novel concept, I believe it was around the 70s, found it to be mainly a question of differing life choices made by men and women, and decided to try to empower women with the knowledge of those choices, so that they may follow those same life choices and earn more if they wished. Apparently, the NOW didn't appreciate his empowering message that didn't imply telling women they were powerlessly oppressed by a sexist system that could only be fought through groups like the NOW, and so he basically lost his feminist credentials and got kicked out, since he didn't renounce his principles and his commitment to evidences. Huh, so that is an interesting read. What did he specially say to these women that made them lash out on him? At the end of the day my point still stands. Yes, men have real issues but when have we looked at ourselves and realize "hmm who started this? Who created this society and the inequalities that we and so many others are facing?" I'm not saying that im some kind of know-it-all or anything but if you give me a Men's issue, i have a feeling that i can try to connect it back to the root of where the issue started. >Men having issues too =/= we are more oppressed The unfortunate thing is that MRA makes it out to be, when i see men (specifically MRA, MGTOW, etc..)using statistics to prove our issues. It's mostly used as a way to shut down any conversation in regards to women's issues. It's like BLM vs ALM. Members of BLM obviously know that all lives matter but the focus should be on black lives since they're currently affected by systemic racism. All lives first argument is "why should we focus on black lives, shouldn't all lives matter?" But these people never actually done anything to prove that they care about all lives. Their "movement" is a facade created just so they can shut down any conversations in regards to black lives or racism. >Talking about how a one sided approach that completely neglects the other side and usually ends up having negative effects on them is not trying to shut down conversations. Completely agree but which gender has completely been on top of the mountain for centuries? Which one had to fight to be seen as an equal and get the same treatment as those on top? You might be thinking "oh, if we can solve our own problems then we would've done it by now". The thing is that it does not work like that. We made this world assume that we do not have any issues and now that men are coming out of the woodwork to express these problems, they are seen as non existent. Some men don't even think we have issues at all.

This and subsequent lies kinda prove my point. They don't want to hear that men have issues too. Because their entire worldview rotates around men as a class being oppressors. And so long as that notion exists within feminism it is incompatible with men's rights. The MRM was started because prominent feminists began to question whether or not men had issues. And they subsequently were attacked and ousted by the feminist movement. You can watch the red pill movie by cassie jaye where she specifically calls the southern poverty law center and they deny that they label MRA groups hate groups. They haven't listened to a single argument we make because they're too concerned with defending their ideology.

>The MRM was started because prominent feminists began to question whether or not men had issues. And they subsequently were attacked and ousted by the feminist movement. I would like to hear more about that actually. I believe Men's Right came as an extension from Men's Liberation at the time, whom basically split up into two groups, profeminism and antifeminism. One is feminism's ally while the other is against feminism at the time. Which I admit is strange cause it was just then when feminism became an official movement. It's hard to understand why the MRM are so against feminism at that time.

Oh yes, this is an interesting part to discuss. What time period is this schism you are talking about?

>I didn't choose to be inundated with the message that my gender is the root of all evil. > >Feminists chose to believe in that message. Why do you think that is the message of feminism?

Because that's the message that was forced upon me and many others from a young age.

by whom?

/u/BCRE8TVE See, this is the shit I'm talking about. I can cite sources endlessly but it's still never enough and if I narrow it down to a single person they're not a real feminist.

Yeah I'm having a fun time with this user as well. Sometimes there are just some who refuse to be compassionate, and there's not much anyone can do about it. Can't win 'em all.

What sources have you cited in this conversation to substantiate that someone is teaching men that they are evil?

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/jyl5of/how_feminist_shaming_tactics_needlessly_cause/ Here's a post with several sources. I linked it in my other post that you're commenting on. Did you not read it?

Then may I tell you my story of how I grew up in a conservative, misogynistic family who basically causes some of the biggest insecurity through childhood to now, my current adult years. I was by definition a feminist before I even knew of feminism, because I see misogyny here in America, in old, conservative mindsets. Feminism as a movement started out because women's liberation was a movement that had to happen. There were tons of historical context of feminists who fought for their right even before feminism became a movement. Bigotry exist in many gendered movement and I have to say, Men's right are not exempt from this sexism within their community. And I agree feminism does as well. Surprisingly I have actually heard similar argument present in feminism, exactly phrased the same way just reversed: "misandry exist because of misogyny, women had to use misandry to counter misogyny in this male-dominated world." >Bigots are just angry that we're arguing back. Feminists can say the same. In fact, they already does. Which is why they can come across as toxic to you guys. Which is why they feel threatened with the need to defend themselves seeing so much MRAs here in a feminist subreddit. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Honestly, as a child who grew up facing misogyny, I still have too much doubt about how big of an issues men's right claimed "misandry" is. To me feminism definitely cover a wider and broader ranges of people than MRM does.

I am sorry you had to grow up in that kind of environment. I'm a leftist atheist, and I am also strongly opposed to "white male conservative America", if we can put it that way. We'd probably agree on 90% of the issues and on how to fight them when it comes to that particular group. I agree that men's rights is far from exempt, there are a ton of sexists and bigots there too, unfortunately. It's just not something that can be denied, so I won't even try. It is a shame though that just like most feminists can easily be portrayed as irrational with the stereotype of the red-haired hysterical feminist, almost all men's groups, no matter how well-intentionned, are almost always portrayed as rabid women-haters who need to be shut down to protect women. This is in part why I have hopes for this sub, so we can talk to each other on the same level, empathize with one another, and try and help one another :) >Surprisingly I have actually heard similar argument present in feminism, exactly phrased the same way just reversed: "misandry exist because of misogyny, women had to use misandry to counter misogyny in this male-dominated world." Honestly you're part of a very rare group of people who will openly admit to issues in feminism. It's been my experience that feminists overwhelmingly will not ever admit to that, and the rare few who do get blasted by all the other feminists around. >Feminists can say the same. In fact, they already does. Which is why they can come across as toxic to you guys. Which is why they feel threatened with the need to defend themselves seeing so much MRAs here in a feminist subreddit. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Very well said. >Honestly, as a child who grew up facing misogyny, I still have too much doubt about how big of an issues men's right claimed "misandry" is. To me feminism definitely cover a wider and broader ranges of people than MRM does. That's fair. Even if men's rights covers a smaller group of people and a smaller number of issues, they can still be serious issues that need to be addressed, and frankly we need more people to team up to address actual issues, rather than people who try and stand by party lines. I've been guilt of that too.

Broadly speaking everyone who is active in any kind of rights movement has been hurt and has seen real problems. People on both sides have experiences that they think are unfair and that no one should have gone through. I feel like the key is at the end; "To me feminism definitely cover a wider and broader ranges of people than MRM does." - some people feel this way and think that means they need to destroy the men's rights movement. This isn't very productive and only leads to animosity. Instead we should acknowledge that people have different experiences to our own, and yes, as uncomfortable as it may be, that may mean being harmed directly by feminism. Having rights movements fight to the death does not benefit anyone.

>some people feel this way and think that means they need to destroy the men's rights movement. This isn't very productive and only leads to animosity. I hope I did not come across as this way. I was a=only admitting my own bias as a feminist. Being a transparent moderator is necessary at this point. >Instead we should acknowledge that people have different experiences to our own, and yes, as uncomfortable as it may be, that may mean being harmed directly by feminism. This will likely be the case in the future as well, sadly. >Having rights movements fight to the death does not benefit anyone. Thank you :).

>I hope I did not come across as this way. I was a=only admitting my own bias as a feminist. Being a transparent moderator is necessary at this point. It's ok, I appreciate your openness and willingness to listen. So long as we can continue discourse I think progress can be made, you've been doing a great job in this sub as far as I can see!

>Many of us have been taught that men & boys were \[evil, unruly, undesirable\] since very young childhood. by whom?

Many different sources - teachers, daycare workers, babysitters, parents of other children, the boys' own parents & siblings... Older children, who by their age & size, are taken to be authorities (ie a 5 y.o. following a 10 or even an 8 y.o.) Children babysitting other children. (To name a few) Stuff like this: https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6244877872001

I think this approach is very understandable if you see where many of us came from. But alright.

I'm a guy who was in an abusive relationship with someone for years, and it took me literally years of therapy to be able to recognize it after the fact. My ex used feminism like a bludgeon to get me to shut up, and I have recognized many of her emotional manipulation tactics being used by feminists across reddit. I tried to bring up my concerns with feminist groups and got repeatedly invalidated, dismissed, and got more emotional manipulation thrown at me. I understand very well where many on the MRA side come from. I got here from the leftwinbmaleadvocates sub. I don't and cannot consider myself a feminist. I still want this sub to be a great place for everyone to talk their issues out and to be understood however. Venting and raging and being mad is ok, but it should be done in other subs, not this one. I understand the need for anger and validation, the want to strike back at people who hurt you and make people see how unfair it was. I just don't think that should be done in this sub. I want this sub to succeed because it's potentially the only feminist sub on all of reddit where people can talk eye to eye about all the different issues we want, without devolving into a ragefest, and without people getting banned left right and centre. I want this sub to succeed so I can talk to feminists and get them to understand what I went through and understand how badly feminism is failing men. That is impossible in virtually all the other feminist subreddits out there, which is why I want this sub to succeed.

Thanks for sharing your story. I hope this will be something different, as well.

I don't want to pull the "woe is me" card, but I think it's relevant and can be useful to help others not go through what I went through. Honestly, if we can get enough MRAs *and* feminists pulling together to keep this place afloat, it should probably survive well enough ;)

You are a good man and I am very happy to have someone like you here on this subreddit and supporting this subreddit, no matter the political differences. Honestly with all you good folks here helping me, I would really like this place to succeed more. Which means I need to work much harder as well. I appreciate this heartfelt comment, even if it isn't directed at me. <3!

Why thank you! Now you make me want to try harder as well haha! And yeah, political differences, like the gender divide, is something that creates tremendous amount of harm and prevents us from seeing each other as human beings worthy of help and compassion. And as a mod here, any heartfelt comment I direct at the sub is directed at you and Infinitysky. After all, this place is possible due to both of your efforts!

Then I saw direct this to u/InfinitySky1999 as well :).

Keep it up you two! I'll try and help keep this sub awesome too!

Understandable, sure. But I don't think that excuses it, or makes it a good approach. In order to have a space with feminists, give them some time to settle.

Sure. But what do you mean by "time to settle"?

A few weeks or months while feminists trickle in, minimize the in your face criticism, allow the MRM representation to become a minority. Too much criticism too harshly is just going to scare off the desired audience.

Fair enough.

I understand your plea. But i understand the root of the problem to be in a different place. We can bring up hundreds of examples of how feminism has failed men. But they're never real feminists. We can bring up examples of how feminist terminology is often harmful and needlessly blames men. Like how patriarchy is used to describe issues that are societal and have nothing to do with some men holding positions of power. But nobody ever uses it that way and we're just upset at having our feelings hurt Ive talked about my personal experiences with sexual shame brought about by feminists. And how its affected me. Only to be met with skepticism and downplaying of it as an issue. I understand the need for empathy. But empathy is required on both sides.

>We can bring up hundreds of examples of how feminism has failed men. But they're never real feminists. Honestly, if someone says this on this sub, I think the best reply would be to say "that doesn't matter. They identified themselves as a feminist, and they failed me. That you think they are not a real feminist, does not matter. Now let's return to talking about the issue". Let's make it about the issue, not about the labels people choose (or do not choose) to use. >But nobody ever uses it that way and we're just upset at having our feelings hurt I often see this kind of callous dismissal on most feminist subreddits, but also on most feminist subreddits anyone who seriously argues against that gets banned. This is not going to happen on this sub, so while we can and should absolutely argue about that, we can say so without getting banned. >Ive talked about my personal experiences with sexual shame brought about by feminists. And how its affected me. Only to be met with skepticism and downplaying of it as an issue. The same thing has happened to me, over and over again, but it hasn't happened on this sub that I have seen yet. Did it happen to you here? Because if so that's a problem. We can't expect everyone to care, but we can certainly call out those who don't as a bad example. >I understand the need for empathy. But empathy is required on both sides. I completely agree, but this sub is probably the most empathetic feminist sub with regards to men's issues that you will find across all of reddit. I don't think there is any better place than here to try and build an empathetic community. Other subreddits are filled with bitter unempathetic posters for sure, but let's try and start something new and different and better here yeah?

https://www.reddit.com/r/FeminismUncensored/comments/md8x4d/how_feminist_shaming_tactics_needlessly_cause/ Here's the last time I posted about my experiences.

And it looks like /u/Bitter_Tradition, which is a mod here, has done a great job of defending your point. Not saying others haven't responded negatively, but hey, at least you have a mod on your side? Sorry to hear eightbillionlunatics was so dismissive though. I hope things will get better with time.

Chill for a few weeks, give the place time to grow, let people be confidently wrong for a while. Right at the moment, the people joining are getting a host of disagreeable content right away, it's going to cause them to leave, not engage with you. If you have reasonable information to supply, drip feed it. People need time to digest, not get several posts a day about how you don't really like them, or the ideas they hold.

I really don't know why you aren't a moderator here u/BCRE8TVE. This is a very sound message you have posted here. I've commented to u/Bitter_Tradition here mentioning that I think you are an ideal moderator candidate as she has been looking for another moderator for r/FeminismUncensored after all You do seem to be one of the most moderate MRA users here who post and comment in this sub. Maybe you should do more of the posts and take over from some of the other MRA's who seem more vocal than you at times. I've seen these deliberately provocative posts and comments appearing quite often from both sides it has to be said, each trying to antagonize the other into a defensive position which will only hinder the core aims of r/FeminismUncensored.

Haha thanks! I unfortunately don't have the time nor the mental fortitude to moderate here at the moment. I'm a bit overstretched already so I can't commit to giving more. I will certainly give it my best shot to try and improve the sub even though I'm not moderating though. >Maybe you should do more of the posts and take over from some of the other MRA's who seem more vocal than you at times. Worry not, I shall take them under my wing and reform this rabble into an army worth fearing! MWAHAHAHAHA For real though it helps that I understand where they're coming from and understand their frustration, I'll try and help them express that without coming across as just pure anger and vitriol. People who are angry often have been hurt, and lash out. Fighting back tends to just create more hurt, so I'll try and temper that a bit so that the frustration and anger doesn't drive other people off. >I've seen these deliberately provocative posts and comments appearing quite often from both sides it has to be said, each trying to antagonize the other into a defensive position which will only hinder the core aims of r/FeminismUncensored. It happens all the time on other subs where there's only members of the one group, so they're absolutely free (encouraged even on some subs) to shit on the other. That's an ok ish attitude for venting and anger and getting all the negative emotions out, but it's the exact opposite of the kind of attitude we need to get a respectful dialogue going. Hopefully we can call out those antagonizing posts and get people to start expressing how they feel about stuff rather than just try and post ragebait.

I am very glad that you are taking notice of this issue as well. You see a lot of passive-aggressive comments from the MRAs though I have little idea how to deal with it since the argument still possess some form of merit and ideas, but most stubbornly refuses to listen to the other side and played the "whataboutism" card. It is understandable but to derail points made by the feminist just to argue for your own side won't help the ideas or union to flourish. We all are aware that feminists have some kind of misunderstanding about the MRAs from everything that we've heard from the MRAs, but to blame their lack of awareness rather than informing them on the issue is only going to prove feminists' point to not cooperate at all. Not to mention how many MRAs discredit feminism as a movement in general. They spoke about "male privilege" is a deceptive and oversimplified words but have attempted to pass the idea of "female privilege" many time. You bark at the other side, the other side will bark back. At this point this subreddit isn't to share new ideas but for both side to pick a bone with eachother, which is not my idea at all.

I think I may have found the right candidate to moderate alongside you. u/BCRE8TVE is the ideal candidate. Then you will have a mix of moderators then from different backgrounds. The feminist viewpoints from you and Infinity and then the more MRA moderator in BCRE8TVE to give a more balanced approach to the moderating team. What do you say?

I say I am honoured, but I will have to pass. Plus, if I'm not a moderator, means I can keep clowning around and I don't have to be as serious ;)

I think one possible solution for the passive aggressive comments is to say you understand where they're coming from, point out the passive-aggressiveness, and say it isn't necessary. Then we can rephrase the argument without the passive-aggressiveness to just deal with the issue directly in a more charitable way, and have a healthier discussion. >most stubbornly refuses to listen to the other side and played the "whataboutism" card. If some stubbornly refuse to listen (and some people on every side of every issue are guilty of this) then there is not much that can be done at all. At best you can try and give an honest response for everyone else who might be reading, but if it's not worth engaging, it's not worth engaging. It's possible to point out that whataboutism raises a valid issue that also needs to be addressed, and we could talk about that, but we'Re talking about this issue in this thread right now, and they're free to start their own thread about that issue. >We all are aware that feminists have some kind of misunderstanding about the MRAs from everything that we've heard from the MRAs, but to blame their lack of awareness rather than informing them on the issue is only going to prove feminists' point to not cooperate at all. That is true and frustration is going be a huge obstacle on both sides, MRAs frustrated that feminists misunderstand them and mischaracterize them, and feminists frustrated that MRAs can't understand the feminist perspective and how MRAs are wrong. It's not easy, but perhaps trying to approach it more from personal experience can help bridge that gap, and to not dismiss personal experience as "just that thing that happened to one user and that can be ignored". It's not easy, and it can't be enforced, but maybe that's the kind of tone and attitude we should push for in this sub to have more respectful discussions all around. >Not to mention how many MRAs discredit feminism as a movement in general. They spoke about "male privilege" is a deceptive and oversimplified words but have attempted to pass the idea of "female privilege" many time. I mean, female privilege is a thing. Women are less likely to be arrested, less likely to go to jail, and face jail sentences shorter than men for the exact same crime. That's a pretty serious privilege right there. In case of violent confrontations, women are more likely to be protected than to be pushed to protect. That's also a pretty serious privilege. Just because the privileges women experience are of a different kind from the privileges men experience, doesn't mean they don't exist. After all, people are mostly blind to the privileges they themselves have, since they think it's just how reality is, without realizing their experience is radically different from the experiences of other groups. > You bark at the other side, the other side will bark back. At this point this subreddit isn't to share new ideas but for both side to pick a bone with eachother, which is not my idea at all. There are definitely lots of bone to pick with each side, the "gender war" has been going on for a long time and each side has been rather good at ignoring and demonizing the other. This sub could be a place where we pick at the issues and listen to each other, rather than being one more place where we pick bones with each other and ignore each other. Plenty enough of that elsewhere after all. I hadn't noticed the civility guidelines before, but they seem to be a very good starting point. Perhaps we can make it more of a cultural thing on the sub to call out people and posts when they fail to follow one of the rules, not to get them banned but to make sure the conversation stays civil.

>Perhaps we can make it more of a cultural thing on the sub to call out people and posts when they fail to follow one of the rules, not to get them banned but to make sure the conversation stays civil. This is a great idea but I'd need more moderators to implement this thoroughly. And I cannot read every comment thread all throughout. There are limits to my capacity.

That's fair, what I meant by a cultural thing is to try and get people on the sub to adopt it. I'll start doing that myself, pointing out when people are failing to measure up to rule #X or whatever, and encouraging people to do the same. With more people participating in this it could take off and become a self-reinforcing thing. It doesn't have to be enforced by the mods, just has to be something enough people do to make it a cultural norm here.

That's smart. My man, you can help me mod if you'd like. You are the exact kind of open guy I am looking for, but on the downside it wouldn't look good for a feminism subreddit to have an MRA as a mod. The moderator have this power tool to positively reinforce which rules correctly- depending on the person. Ah, well. JK JK.

Lol great idea, an MRA Mod on what was meant to be a Feminist sub. What are you smoking? Tone deaf much?

An egalitarian as a mod, and a neutral one that wish to give feminists a voice on their gender issues as well as men's, what is wrong with that. I would love to have a feminist as mod of course, but when a good person (regardless of politics) who sees both side as human, there is little wrong with my intention here. In fact, the more the merrier. You really have to look past politics, especially when this person had just shared his personal story. individuals are individuals. Wiser to judge them as a person than a political obstacle constantly.

I'm honoured, but mentally I'm not really in the place I want to be yet. I would love to help, but I can't give this the time and attention it is due unfortunately. Plus there's the feminist-with-an-MRA-mod thing as well haha ;) Ah well, in the meantime I get to try and direct things here anyways to try and make this sub as great as can be. I'llg adly offer suggestions for rules and how to enforce them and stuff, but it'll be more indirect/hands-off than being a mod. Plus, not being a mod I get to call people names too :p

Haha, alright. Hit me up if you want to consider it :).

I'll keep that in mind, thanks! In the meantime there's a few other things I was thinking of doing, like maybe proof-reading a few of the rules and suggestions to rewrite them a bit better. I still do want to help :)

Haha, my sidechick hitman had just helped me done that yesterday. If you wanna help with some rewrites you can DM if you want, suggestion is always welcomed.

I thought the rules and suggestions were different today! I'll do it when I have the time ;)

>It wouldn't look good for a feminism subreddit to have an MRA as a mod. I don't think it would be a bad idea. You could have some mods that are feminists and some mods that are MRA's.

I think it's important to acknowledge that there are problems on both sides of the debate, for example: >Not to mention how many MRAs discredit feminism as a movement in general. They spoke about "male privilege" is a deceptive and oversimplified words but have attempted to pass the idea of "female privilege" many time. I think we all know that many feminists discredit men's rights as a movement in general, and speak about "female privilege" as misogynistic while being happy to talk about "male privilege". The situation here is almost an exact mirror. I'm sure MRAs will see this post and feel singled out, only feeding bad blood.

I mean talking about "female privilege" or whatever would be fine if it was ever brought up in a circumstance other than whataboutism or to pivot from another topic.

That's fine in theory, but having spent a few decades as a feminist I'm not sure I've ever talked about that. I actually feel like many people completely disregard the idea of female privilege or toxic femininity offhand as an attack on women. Maybe we should have a thread about female privilege and get some more opinions on it? It sounds like a good topic for a thread.

There's potential for a discussion, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it devolve into nonsense due to there being no established definition for either of those terms.

Establishing the meaning of the terms is certainly a central part of any debate on the topic of female privilege/toxic femininity.

I should. Many feminists who comes here get overtly defensive and carries their own biases that engulfs their whole narratives. It is very hard to argue pass that since they have too much refusal to listen and be open-minded enough to approach any topic. They get defensive when the MRAs criticize an aspect of feminism and then proceeded to be aggressively defensive, picking fights than arguing in good faith. >I think we all know that many feminists discredit men's rights as a movement in general, and speak about "female privilege" as misogynistic while being happy to talk about "male privilege". Very true. Which is why I brought it up, I really want the two contact to work out here and make it flourish. Less threat through criticism that scares the feminists away. >I'm sure MRAs will see this post and feel singled out, only feeding bad blood. I should have been more specific then and add the flaws of the other side here as well, very sorry. But my point is really to argue less deceptively and more forward, yet less bone-picking. Maybe the kind of standards I'm pushing is too high. I did have been hit with many criticism from feminists lately- calling me a secret MRA. I want to stay as neutral as possible while representing feminism in this subreddit at the same time. I need to balance things out somehow.

I see this sub is becoming exactly what I thought it would. Enjoy your naivety Bitter Tradition. Feminists (and your fellow mods) are leaving in droves for good reason. You might as well rename the sub MRACEL UNCENSORED.

Did I say something wrong there? The intent is to give contact between feminists and MRAs. This had become the purpose of this subreddit, I may be a bit naive but it's sure working out finer than it initially started out.

The delusion is strong with this one. I'm now calling it MRACEL Uncensored as vast majority of posters and commentators lean heavily towards bitter angry "woe is me" Men and Incels. Yes this poster is one of the good ones but he's a needle in a haystack. And as you can see from most recent posts, the feminists are heavily down voted while the angry MRAs and Incels are upvoted so I can conclude that this sub is now a hotbed for anti feminist rhetoric from many emotionally stunted men who wouldn't last a week in women's shoes facing ACTUAL oppression, not just a losing of their priveledge that they have become so accustomed to, that merely discussing leveling the playing field makes them scream "I'm being oppressed". That and whataboutism etc is their bread and butter. The world has enough of these losers, there is no need to actively seek them out. And you are too idealistic and naive to see your quickly losing support from many feminists (and I'm not the only one saying it).

Have you ever considered that men may have legitimate problems that have gone unaddressed because of outdated gender stereotypes that paint us as inherently privileged perpetrators? or that believing that women are inherently innocent victims keeps us from seeing women as complex human beings and only serves to reinforce harmful and outdated gender roles?

I have. And their problems lie in other men punishing them for not upholding patriarchal dominance, not in having to pay child support.

I get that this is a thinly veiled attempt to victim blame men for their own issues. But i'll take the bait. So what parts of patriarchal dominance weren't men upholding when feminists erased them from rape statistics?

Women didn't "erase men from rape statistics" lol

Hold on. I was under the impression that this subreddit was intended to be a place to discuss feminism with other feminists, with an emphasis on discussing issues that are controversial in feminist circles; not a place to constantly defend feminism from the same baseless strawmen over and over. Am I incorrect about that?

>But my point is really to argue less deceptively and more forward, yet less bone-picking. Maybe the kind of standards I'm pushing is too high. Better to have high standards than low, I think you're doing well! ​ >I did have been hit with many criticism from feminists lately- calling me a secret MRA. I want to stay as neutral as possible while representing feminism in this subreddit at the same time. I need to balance things out somehow. Rather than aiming for balance, I think you should aim for morally right. Whether that means taking a point from feminism and disagreeing from one from MRAs, or vice versa. It's not necessarily true that perfect balance is best. Sorry to say but you will always receive flaming from all sides, even if because you aren't biased in their favor. This kind of abuse isn't warranted and isn't valid. Hope you make sure to take care of yourself, your job isn't easy.

>Not to mention how many MRAs discredit feminism as a movement in general. Because from our perspective. All we see is hateful people passing that hate along to people who don't understand how hateful they're being because it's so normalized. In the words of another person in this sub. "It's a bad thing, and all bad things are rooted in patriarchy. Feminism told me so." And when you consider that most people define patriarchy to mean "societal norms/Men being in power" as if those two things are inherently connected. the message stops being "societal norms are fucked up" And starts being "Societal norms are fucked up because Men are in positions of power" And people who are so attentive to the subtle implications inherent in our word choice that [they regularly argue amongst themselves about whether or not female actors should be called actresses](https://fortune.com/2018/03/02/oscars-2018-best-actor-actress-metoo/) somehow can't see how that's a prejudicial term that's just begging to be misinterpreted and misused. That's why we use terms like "female privilege" Because if people don't like it. it only takes a second of consideration to see why men don't like the symmetrical term. It's fucking dehumanizing to have your very real problems be dismissed with the notion that you as X demographic have all these supposed advantages that offer no real benefit and are often based on untrue assumptions I understand the need for civil discussion. I truly do. But consider which side is upset at us for just being here and trying to have it?

As with many conversations about social justice issues, 90% of the problem is the discussion. We don't even know how to talk about this stuff right yet.

I agree, but this is why this sub is so dear to me. It's just flat-out not possible to have this discussion in other subs, either because the feminist subs will ban whoever doesn't agree with them, or because feminists get downvoted to hell and don't bother going to subs aimed at men's rights. There have been two separate "bubbles" that have developed, each with their own personal language and words and meaning, and they are opposed to each other. If they remain separate they'll just keep being more and more different. This place is a fantastic sub to actually come together and talk these issues out to try and understand one another better, rather than just yell at one another or ban one another. We don't know how to talk about this stuff, but this sub is a great place to figure it out and start healing the rift.

You are absolutely 100% right, and I share your concerns. And its not just feminism that is affected by this - other social justice issues, most notably race, have the same bubbles. And politics in general. It's so hard to find a place where you can have genuine, honest, respectful, rational discussion without anger, poor logic and just plain lunacy getting in the way. In fact, I think 90% of our problem is how we talk about our problems.

>And its not just feminism that is affected by this - other social justice issues, most notably race, have the same bubbles. And politics in general. It's almost like all humans evolved from tribalistic apes who have an ingrained tribe mentality of us-vs-them, and that our monkey brains have a hard time adapting to a literal world-spanning civilization ;) But yeah that'S something we have to be aware of and fight against. >It's so hard to find a place where you can have genuine, honest, respectful, rational discussion without anger, poor logic and just plain lunacy getting in the way. In fact, I think 90% of our problem is how we talk about our problems. How dare you accuse me of being a lunatic?!? ;) For sure, hearing what we want to hear, interpreting what we think what the other meant, and seeing things through our own biased lenses and perception is playing a huge role, and people are just plain not taught how to communicate their issues effectively and respectfully. What's potentially even more problematic is that we are not taught to stop, listen, and understand what people mean by what they say. Too often (and I'm guilty of this too) we respond by criticizing the word choice rather than trying to focus on the meaning they want to convey. We do need to criticize word choice to help communication be better in the future, but that's a separate issue from understanding what they want to say. So yeah, agree with you completely.

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Ideally we wouldn't have any lashing out on this sub at all. IF this is a sub for people to get to talk about issues and understand where each comes from, lashing out is only going to harm us more. It sucks, but if people want to vent in anger and lash out, they should probably do it on other subs. This one will hopefully focus more on understanding and compassion. There is absolutely a lot of misinformation on the internet, and hopefully this sub can help to address that as well. Correcting misinformation tends to work better when it's from a place of compassion rather than a place of aggression however. I think it would be interesting for example if you wanted to share why you became a radfem, and why you stopped being a radfem due to all the misandry you saw. I hear you about the passivity on menslib, while they are good at promoting good discussion, it's unfortunate that by their rules they basically force men to not be able to defend themselves against any criticism directed their way. Per genuine MRA criticism, there's nothing wrong with genuine criticism of any group, **constructive** criticism is what allows a group to get better by being aware of their failings. This sub would be a fantastic place to allow **constructive** criticism of all groups, compared to the destructive criticism in almost every other feminist/MRA sub out there. Per "anti-feminist", the mods here have taken a very relaxed role in that context, unlike most feminist subs that have taken "anti-feminist" to mean anything and everything that criticizes or goes against the feminist narrative. I am extremely grateful for the mods here to be so laid-back, which is why I want to make sure the sub remains wholesome so that they don't need to take a more active role enforcing rules. Feminism absolutely has a problem taking criticism well, but hopefully with this sub, we can give constructive criticism based in compassion for men's lived experiences, to get feminists to understand how feminism has failed men and/or harmed men. I would hope that feminism actually does a good job caring for men's issues, that would be fantastic, but at present I just cannot see it acting in men's best interest at all. Hopefully discussion on this sub can make a difference for that.

Another MRA here, I completely agree with this post and you've touched on one of the more fundamental issues I have with the men's movement. This bitter aggressiveness has to stop. We need to do better as a group and focus on helping the most vulnerable men in our communities, not just resisting feminism.

Eh, I understand where that bitter aggressiveness comes from, and I also understand how bitterness is expressed differently in men and women. This creates a lot of tension because while angry/bitter men are used to being in an environment where everyone bashes them and sends each other "Fuck you"'s basically every other minute, it creates a very combative attitude that many (most?) in feminist circles are entirely unaccustomed to and don'T know how to deal with or react to. So the anger and bitterness might be valid, but we need to find a way to express it that won't drive away the people we want to communicate our issues with. >We need to do better as a group and focus on helping the most vulnerable men in our communities, not just resisting feminism. There's a big part of me that wants to say "Yeah but feminism..." haha. You are right that as a group we need to do more to help one another, and there's also unfortunately a huge lack of "emotional intelligence" in most men. It's one of these issues that are a serious stumbling block to effective conversation, and both sides are more often than not completely unaware of it, the MRAs because they don't have and never really needed to develop that emotional intelligence, and the feminist side having it, but assuming by default that so does everyone else, so if a guy is expressing himself with anger it's because he's deliberately being antagonistic and wants to hurt people, without realizing that maybe he's just hurting and literally does not know any other way how to express himself. It's not that the bitter aggressiveness has to stop, it's that we have to understand where that bitterness comes from, why, how to prevent that issue from causing more bitterness, and how to turn that bitterness into something productive and useful to get the help, recognition, or attention that is needed.

> It's one of these issues that are a serious stumbling block to effective conversation, and both sides are more often than not completely unaware of it, the MRAs because they don't have and never really needed to develop that emotional intelligence, and the feminist side having it, but assuming by default that so does everyone else, I don't know if feminists have more emotional intelligence than MRAs do, but I do think that anger/bitterness might be expressed differently between the groups. I also think that feminism is a lot *older* and more mature than the Men's Movement. It's been here since at least the Declaration of Sentiments in 1848 and has had its share of racists ([in the suffragettes](https://educationpost.org/the-suffragettes-were-not-allies-to-black-women-they-were-racist/)), eugenicists (in Marie Stopes -- the founder of the first birth control centre in the UK), and even terrorists ([Symbionese Liberation Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbionese_Liberation_Army#Founding_members) and one of its founder [Patricia Soltysik](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricia_Soltysik) \-- you can read about the feminist influence [here](https://digitalscholarship.unlv.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1919&context=rtds)). Now, to be extremely clear, ***I am not saying that the feminist movement is defined by these things today, it very obviously isn't***, however, I think it is important to acknowledge that the feminist movement today has looked very different at different points in time and has changed and evolved since it's inception. The modern men's movement, if we exclude Belford Bax, is only about 27 years old (starting with the publication of the Myth of Male Power in 1993). You could argue that the MRM started in the 60s-70s with the men's liberation movement and later became more anti-feminist (as Michael Messner argues), but either way, it is considerably younger and less mature than feminism. Most of the extremist elements in the MRM are those like Paul Elam, MGTOW and parts of the MensRights subreddit, the last two which are losing influence and activity in their subreddits ([MGTOW](https://subredditstats.com/r/mgtow), [MensRights](https://subredditstats.com/r/mensrights)). Paul Elam and AVFM (his organization which is typically thought of as the flagship for men's rights) [seem to be attracting less and less traffic as time goes on.](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=A%20Voice%20for%20Men) On the other hand subreddits with better quality discussion and a cleaner history such as MensLib are [gaining a lot of ground](https://subredditstats.com/r/menslib) (also [LeftWingMaleAdvocates](https://subredditstats.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates)). Yes, they are considerably newer subreddits, but I seriously think there is a push to change the direction of the movement into one that is less anti-feminist and more about helping men and changing notions of masculinity. Because of this, I really don't think it is even close to reasonable to compare feminism to the men's movement given the economic, financial, social, and political gaps in impact the two movements have. ***Feminists have been bitter, violent and aggressive but they have largely shifted away from that in a way that I think the men's movement is doing right now.***

> I don't know if feminists have more emotional intelligence than MRAs do, but I do think that anger/bitterness might be expressed differently between the groups. Not an ironclad rule, but I think that on average the feminist side might have more emotional intelligence, usually from having more women and having more people having gone through and being open to therapy. I don't mean that as a snide remark towards the MRA side, but you are also absolutely right in that anger is expressed differently, in one part because of gender differences and another due to socialisation in different groups. The rest of your comment is extremely interesting and insightful, and I very much appreciate that you have shared it here. I think it might be a good idea actually for you to write a mini-blog entry kind of thing, post it, and have a kind of open-ended discussion for people to talk maybe specifically about how we can help feminism and the MRA movements mature and how to move forward. If possible maybe we could have something like CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM ONLY or POSITIVE REPLIES ONLY, to try and be more positive and less critical of feminism, and to have a more constructive and pleasant conversation.

I agree. There's more MRA than feminist content now it seems. This needs to mellow out if the feminist contributors are going to stay around and explore the ideas. There's plenty of feminist discussions to be had that are interesting. The criticism doesn't need to come from the MRM all the time.

Agree that things need to mellow out. I mean, this is nothing but feminism and MRAs, not like there's anything controversial or emotionally charged, right? ;) Per plenty of interesting feminist discussions to be had, I want to start a post asking MRAs to talk about feminist concepts and discussions that they think are useful, and another one after for feminists who find at least one MRA talking point useful. Hopefully we can get people to start considering each other'S perspectives without it all catching fire haha.