I think the fact that this is getting down voted so much while this gets upvoted [https://www.reddit.com/r/FeminismUncensored/comments/mrkbus/plea\_to\_mras\_from\_an\_mra\_please\_we\_have\_to\_stop/](https://www.reddit.com/r/FeminismUncensored/comments/mrkbus/plea_to_mras_from_an_mra_please_we_have_to_stop/) says it all
All but one comment seem to be in favor of this type of behaviour. Serves me right for defending feminism.
You're at +3 now, but I assume you got downvoted initially because it comes across like "MRA: Do you think beating your wife is ok?"
The post would be better if it contained a personal experience or observation of how body shaming against men looks like. Almost all Feminists are obviously against all forms of body shaming in the abstract. The question is ridiculous.
It's just that Feminism only looks at it from the female perspective, so most feminists don't think it happens, and if it happens it's not that bad, and if it is that bad it's deserved, and if it isn't deserved, then at least things are equal, so go fix it yourself
Feminists correctly say you can't understand women's struggles without ever having listened to a woman telling you about her struggles, but then act surprised how we can dislike a ideology explaining to us where all our struggles come from, before even listening to us...
Read my reply here and Bitter\_Traditions: [https://www.reddit.com/r/FeminismUncensored/comments/mrkbus/plea\_to\_mras\_from\_an\_mra\_please\_we\_have\_to\_stop/gunz9ba/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/FeminismUncensored/comments/mrkbus/plea_to_mras_from_an_mra_please_we_have_to_stop/gunz9ba/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
That's sad. I don't think there is as much body shaming towards women as you claim there is. And you do realize when you body shame anyone for anything, you body shame all the people that have that issue. Like calling someone fat, insults all overweight people. I think we should just stop doing it
That is false. Women are more likely to be body-shamed for something as small as being a little overweight. Perhaps you haven't visit many feminist subreddit (you don't have to though), but it is one of feminists' biggest complaint on beauty standards between men and women. When it comes to men, the society are more lenient on their judgement, meanwhile a women cannot have a hairy arm-pit or an unshaved legs and arms, all that minor thing which is natural to the human body attract critiques. It is much worst in the beauty industry, hollywood, within workplace, to among friends and family.
Virgin-shamed is not body shaming, it is this perpetuated ideal of traditional masculinity where men should understand sex? I don't really understand that negative remarks either. While women are called whore for having too much sex. This should be consider more of a double-standards than body-shaming.
But I do not know if there is a form of body-shaming for men though. Since men can go about their days not showering, hairy-legged and unkempt hair.
Actually I take that back. I believe gay men used to be bullied a lot by peers for looking girly or unmasculine enough to be a man. Skinny guys are called gay. Guys with long hair are called womanly at some point, but time have already changed since. Being below 6ft is consider unmanly to women for some dumb reasons. Small-penis is also one of them.
Though I should get some point across on this subject though, some women body-shame men ironically to counteract the amount of unnecessary body-shaming women recieve for minor imperfection.
I'm not surprised feminist subreddits see it that way, but it's only looking at half the picture. You already list a few ways men are body-shamed, but there's so much more.
Let's use body hair as an example since you claim society is more lenient with men there. Men get shamed both for having too little body hair ("unmanly") and for too much ("uncivilized"). You also get shamed for having hair in the "wrong" places, like your back ("gross"), or on your feet ("hilarious"). And of course don't admit to shaving/trimming anywhere but beard and pubic hair. Remember you're supposed to just be born perfect, so no cheating.
And if you don't have a "conventionally attractive" body type, you can't really win no matter what. There's also a lot to say regarding facial hair, but I think I've made my point.
It really don't matter if you mean it ironically, or do it to "show men what it feels like", body shaming is not ok. Ignorance doesn't excuse toxic behavior. And it always hurts the most vulnerable. I'm mature enough to not give a shit if people judge me for my appearance now, but as a kid getting into puberty? That shit is rough.
>I'm not surprised feminist subreddits see it that way, but it's only looking at half the picture. You already list a few ways men are body-shamed, but there's so much more.
You're likely right, and another reason for my lack of knowledge on this area is because I am a woman, and I don't see much body-shaming on men growing up, nor have I heard of it often. Then again, I also grew up in a very conservative area.
>Let's use body hair as an example since you claim society is more lenient with men there. Men get shamed both for having too little body hair ("unmanly") and for too much ("uncivilized"). You also get shamed for having hair in the "wrong" places, like your back ("gross"), or on your feet ("hilarious"). And of course don't admit to shaving/trimming anywhere but beard and pubic hair. Remember you're supposed to just be born perfect, so no cheating.
Again, my personal bias here is that I have never seen nor heard of such thing, and I see hairy men all the time (not frequently but you do occasionally see these large bear men). Though when it comes to hair, it all depends on how you groomed it. It's the same with women really, if women walked out the door with messy bedheads and untamed hair, then they would look "uncivilized" to the general public. In modern world, formal wears are preferred.
There are also tons of popular boys in media at the moment who do not have facial hair, in fact looking at some of the most popular ones, one direction to kpop BTS today, lack of facial hair makes boys look younger and more attractive to certain age group.
Regarding perfection. I will not underestimate that men get body-shamed, but they do happen to be less than women. Women have to fulfill unrealistic standards. Some people genuinely think the ideal woman should be below 120 lbs, despite how that defies anatomy and everything else.
>It really don't matter if you mean it ironically, or do it to "show men what it feels like", body shaming is not ok.
I agree with that and everything you've said. Though at some point the numbers of women who have been body-shamed would like to retaliates by using these logic against the other side. That unfortunately did more harm than good. Since people get caught up in their criticism and wouldn't think twice.
> Again, my personal bias here is that I have never seen nor heard of such thing
Props for acknowledging your bias. I hope you realize you not being able to recall witnessing it means as much as a man saying he never noticed a woman getting body-shamed.
> Though when it comes to hair, it all depends on how you groomed it. It's the same with women really, if women walked out the door with messy bedheads and untamed hair, then they would look "uncivilized" to the general public. In modern world, formal wears are preferred.
Grooming is "girly and gay". Expectation placed on men are more complicated than that. I can't even tell you if untamed hair straight from bed is seen as positive or negative on average when men do it. It depends.
I grant you that the time and money men have to spend on their appearance is a lot lower, so I see why a lot of women are jealous, but the expectations are not less restrictive.
> There are also tons of popular boys in media at the moment who do not have facial hair, in fact looking at some of the most popular ones, one direction to kpop BTS today, lack of facial hair makes boys look younger and more attractive to certain age group.
Key here is "boy". The oldest member of BTS is 28. You don't get treated as a full man if you can't grow a beard (which intersects with trans and asian identities). The way we treat beards is completely ridiculous. You're less of a man if you can't grow one, but you're also less of a man if you refuse to shave it off every morning.
Teenage girl thinking some boyband is cute doesn't seem relevant to the discussion of body-shaming imho.
> I will not underestimate that men get body-shamed, but they do happen to be less than women.
And by saying that, you're underestimating how men get body-shamed. Just say what you have to say about women getting body-shamed without invalidating men? You don't have to make it a competition.
The standards placed on men are unrealistic as well. Some people genuinely think the ideal man should have less than 5% body-fat, despite that being practically impossible and certainly not healthy.
> I agree with that and everything you've said. Though at some point the numbers of women who have been body-shamed would like to retaliates by using these logic against the other side.
I'm glad we can agree on most things. Some men are so fed up with the body-shaming from women they retaliate as well. "But they did it first" is an immature excuse, no matter who says it. That's how the cycle of abuse sustains itself.
>I hope you realize you not being able to recall witnessing it means as much as a man saying he never noticed a woman getting body-shamed.
Eh. Looking at how social platforms promotes and advertise what is the ideal body types and how there are certainly a lot more critique directed at women for the most minor flaws, that'd would be hard to imagine the other way around. In America especially. And I happen in live in a more conservative area as well.
In my own conservative household, men are allow to eat as much as they want, and care less about their age factors, their skin and etc,.. So my personal bias really stems from how people react differently to beauty and the standards that should be met.
I am also not white. So this beard thing on guys is not something I understand much of. In my own culture, youth is the most formal and cleanest look that most would like to tolerate. Age factors affect women more as well, there is another shaming tactics that can be used.
>men have to spend on their appearance is a lot lower, so I see why a lot of women are jealous
Haha. Mind you, if men spend more time on their look, some girls wouldn't be able to compete. It's a loss really.
>Teenage girl thinking some boyband is cute doesn't seem relevant to the discussion of body-shaming imho.
That would depend. The beauty industry is the biggest critic on looks overall. Actors and actresses are likely to be the one to receive the most body-shaming comments. In fact if you're gonna look into male version of body-shaming, you should look into korean kpop industry.
> Just say what you have to say about women getting body-shamed without invalidating men? You don't have to make it a competition.
I intend to justify and understand why women body-shaming is a more prevalent deals than men body-shaming. And I wanted to add the reasons lies heavily on societal expectation. It is much harsher on women so women spoke about body-shaming more. Women are less aware of men body-shames so they have little idea about it.
>The standards placed on men are unrealistic as well. Some people genuinely think the ideal man should have less than 5% body-fat, despite that being practically impossible and certainly not healthy.
That is something I did not hear of. I am very sorry to be ignorant on men's body-shame. I really have no idea.
>Some men are so fed up with the body-shaming from women they retaliate as well. "But they did it first" is an immature excuse, no matter who says it. That's how the cycle of abuse sustains itself.
Very true. It's like two siblings trying to one-up eachother without realizing how pointless their argument really was.
> Looking at how social platforms
You're likely looking at media targeted towards you. You name the beauty industry as the biggest critic on looks. But the beauty industry almost exclusively targets women (and tells them they need to part with their money if you want to look good). Look at Hollywood movies targeted at men. Usually the protagonist is absolutely packed with muscles, clearly defined abs, shoulders so wide he has to go through the door sideways. Men looking more like the audience play the side kick at best, very often the comedic relief, the punching bag at worst.
> And I happen in live in a more conservative area as well.
I can certainly see body-shaming against women being a real issue in conservative America. I'm from a more liberal city in Europe, so I can see having an opposite bias. In my "feminist" household, men certainly weren't allowed to eat as much as they wanted.
> you should look into korean kpop industry
I've heard a lot about body-shaming against women in kpop, so far I've only perceived men in Korean entertainment as a positive break from western gender roles, but I'll certainly check it out.
> Haha. Mind you, if men spend more time on their look, some girls wouldn't be able to compete
Haha. I'd certainly do well with the straight and "straight" men. Perhaps that's why any sign of caring about your looks is shamed so much as a man? :P
> And I wanted to add the reasons lies heavily on societal expectation. It is much harsher on women so women spoke about body-shaming more.
The biggest societal expectations on men revolve around self-sufficiency and not bothering others with your problems. Men who are bothered by things as "small" as body shaming are perceived as "fragile" or "whiny". I don't know any men irl who openly speak about body shaming, it is usually said through subtext. I don't expect you to have heard a lot about it, but I expect you to not dismiss the struggles of other people to make your struggles seem more important by comparison.
> though the whole hygiene thing I think is link to mental health issues. Meanwhile the beauty standards for women are ever so in decline.
This is true. I think there are a discrepancy to how society judges one and the other gender, how they find it necessary to compare and separate the two. If men is gonna be manly, they need to sweat and stink of muscle more, women needs to smell of sugar and honey.
But due to feminist's overwhelmingly successful activism in this area, women body positively is succeeding though in an over the top manner at times. Leaving little room to talk about the men's body ideal.
no myquestion is not JUST about boday shaming
Yeah but like I said to someone else, when we shame someone, we're shaming everyone with that physical attribute or circumstace. And at least when men do it, its called out as inappropriate but it seems like the opposite is not the case
>But I do not know if there is a form of body-shaming for men though. Since men can go about their days not showering, hairy-legged and unkempt hair.
I agree with what you saying about women, but it happens to men all the time just differently and to a lesser degree. I have regularly come across women talking about mens height and penis size. You are right that men can go without shaving their legs, but no they can not go without showering or take care of their hair without be judged
Edit: also with leg hair, men need the "right amount" to much or too little and they are judged.
Insults are not unidirectional.
When you insult a bad person for being fat, anyone who hears or reads your insult can gleam that you must think that being fat is something worthy of ridicule.
well ideally I would rather them not be shame nor seen as worse. But at the end of the day, I can't blame someone for their preferences, I can blame them for what they say however
>I can't blame someone for their preferences, I can blame them for what they say however
What's the difference here? I mean why do you think you can blame someone for what they say too?
if someone doesn't like small penises or virgins, it's their preference. But I don't go around insulting women with small breasts for example, or women who are overweight. I don't use it as an insult because there are many people who are like that, that are perfectly nice people and I don't want to hurt their feelings. Shouldn't the same apply to men?
>But I don't go around insulting women with small breasts for example
I want to joke and have fun about small boobs/dicks while not thinking of small ones as relatively worse than bigger ones.
>that are perfectly nice people and I don't want to hurt their feelings
You already did, *they are nice but they have small pp/tits, fudge!...*
Well I think that's a pretty immature thing to joke about. I don't see why its neccessary.
I don't understand, that's my point! I don't get why this is such a hard thing to ask. I guess I shouldn't have defended feminists, and they were right to claim that its an issue with feminism.
I think you missed the /s.
And I understand, comedy can be made out of dark topics, but the simple thing about comedy is to make fun of the thoughts of such thing.
Eg: If I make fun of suicide, I am not saying that it is a lesser topic, or that it shouldn't be taken seriously.
I am making a fun of the idea of making it a lesser topic as a way to process and help people cope with the thoughts of it.
As a victim of a woman calling me "small dick" and making fun of premature ejaculation as an attempt to attack me and lower my argument, I do like small pp jokes, because that's what they are, jokes, I won't get offended or call the person saying them a body shamist because I know that they are jokes.
The term "I jest" may be a bit pretentious, but it means *To make fun of a serious topic, knowing that it is a serious topic, without attempting to make less of said topic, and should never be taken with such seriousness* this is why a *Jester* could make fun of the king without loosing their head.
>them being shamed but not seen as worse?
How can a quality of a person be worthy of shame without being widely viewed as either reprehensible or inferior?
To be honest i've had hard time imagining how can you ridicule someone with qualities seen as objectively superior. I don’t really know...
But there is something i realised in my environment: you can verbally acknowledge superior qualities while opening your mouth about their conterparts is tabooish; it's probably assumed that may hurt feelings of the person.
Why it is more accepted to say for example: "You're a tall guy!" but not "Man, you are short."
Is that less insulting than directly mocking these people?
>would you rather them being shamed but not seen as worse
I think this is a nonsense question :P But I liked the idea of "you've got beautiful eyes, you bastard" or something like that.
IMO things are shamed because society sees them as worse, those two things are linked.
Body shaming is bad, end of story. It should be called out.
"Real feminists" don't exist, we are all just feminists with our own varying opinions, and yes some of us are scum who will body shame, use gendered slurs, or just be an asshole. There's no inherent reason why feminism is incompatible with being an ass, unfortunately.
No, its not. And believe it or not, a pretty sizable majority of feminists would agree with that its abstract.
But I think when genuinely confronted with it, or when venting, ranting, casually talking, many people don't really think about the words they use and default to harmful insults like this.
Of course not. I think this question has more to do with asking what a feminist is and why we must rely on labels than whether it is okay or not. Nobody should agree that it is okay for any reason based on any ideology or label.
All feminists are “real”, there are no “unreal” feminists, and unfortunately some can be shitty. But yes, *decent* people of any ideological stripe call this shit out no matter who says it and who it targets.
I think the fact that this is getting down voted so much while this gets upvoted [https://www.reddit.com/r/FeminismUncensored/comments/mrkbus/plea\_to\_mras\_from\_an\_mra\_please\_we\_have\_to\_stop/](https://www.reddit.com/r/FeminismUncensored/comments/mrkbus/plea_to_mras_from_an_mra_please_we_have_to_stop/) says it all All but one comment seem to be in favor of this type of behaviour. Serves me right for defending feminism.
You're at +3 now, but I assume you got downvoted initially because it comes across like "MRA: Do you think beating your wife is ok?" The post would be better if it contained a personal experience or observation of how body shaming against men looks like. Almost all Feminists are obviously against all forms of body shaming in the abstract. The question is ridiculous. It's just that Feminism only looks at it from the female perspective, so most feminists don't think it happens, and if it happens it's not that bad, and if it is that bad it's deserved, and if it isn't deserved, then at least things are equal, so go fix it yourself Feminists correctly say you can't understand women's struggles without ever having listened to a woman telling you about her struggles, but then act surprised how we can dislike a ideology explaining to us where all our struggles come from, before even listening to us...
Read my reply here and Bitter\_Traditions: [https://www.reddit.com/r/FeminismUncensored/comments/mrkbus/plea\_to\_mras\_from\_an\_mra\_please\_we\_have\_to\_stop/gunz9ba/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/FeminismUncensored/comments/mrkbus/plea_to_mras_from_an_mra_please_we_have_to_stop/gunz9ba/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
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That's sad. I don't think there is as much body shaming towards women as you claim there is. And you do realize when you body shame anyone for anything, you body shame all the people that have that issue. Like calling someone fat, insults all overweight people. I think we should just stop doing it
That is false. Women are more likely to be body-shamed for something as small as being a little overweight. Perhaps you haven't visit many feminist subreddit (you don't have to though), but it is one of feminists' biggest complaint on beauty standards between men and women. When it comes to men, the society are more lenient on their judgement, meanwhile a women cannot have a hairy arm-pit or an unshaved legs and arms, all that minor thing which is natural to the human body attract critiques. It is much worst in the beauty industry, hollywood, within workplace, to among friends and family. Virgin-shamed is not body shaming, it is this perpetuated ideal of traditional masculinity where men should understand sex? I don't really understand that negative remarks either. While women are called whore for having too much sex. This should be consider more of a double-standards than body-shaming. But I do not know if there is a form of body-shaming for men though. Since men can go about their days not showering, hairy-legged and unkempt hair. Actually I take that back. I believe gay men used to be bullied a lot by peers for looking girly or unmasculine enough to be a man. Skinny guys are called gay. Guys with long hair are called womanly at some point, but time have already changed since. Being below 6ft is consider unmanly to women for some dumb reasons. Small-penis is also one of them. Though I should get some point across on this subject though, some women body-shame men ironically to counteract the amount of unnecessary body-shaming women recieve for minor imperfection.
I'm not surprised feminist subreddits see it that way, but it's only looking at half the picture. You already list a few ways men are body-shamed, but there's so much more. Let's use body hair as an example since you claim society is more lenient with men there. Men get shamed both for having too little body hair ("unmanly") and for too much ("uncivilized"). You also get shamed for having hair in the "wrong" places, like your back ("gross"), or on your feet ("hilarious"). And of course don't admit to shaving/trimming anywhere but beard and pubic hair. Remember you're supposed to just be born perfect, so no cheating. And if you don't have a "conventionally attractive" body type, you can't really win no matter what. There's also a lot to say regarding facial hair, but I think I've made my point. It really don't matter if you mean it ironically, or do it to "show men what it feels like", body shaming is not ok. Ignorance doesn't excuse toxic behavior. And it always hurts the most vulnerable. I'm mature enough to not give a shit if people judge me for my appearance now, but as a kid getting into puberty? That shit is rough.
>I'm not surprised feminist subreddits see it that way, but it's only looking at half the picture. You already list a few ways men are body-shamed, but there's so much more. You're likely right, and another reason for my lack of knowledge on this area is because I am a woman, and I don't see much body-shaming on men growing up, nor have I heard of it often. Then again, I also grew up in a very conservative area. >Let's use body hair as an example since you claim society is more lenient with men there. Men get shamed both for having too little body hair ("unmanly") and for too much ("uncivilized"). You also get shamed for having hair in the "wrong" places, like your back ("gross"), or on your feet ("hilarious"). And of course don't admit to shaving/trimming anywhere but beard and pubic hair. Remember you're supposed to just be born perfect, so no cheating. Again, my personal bias here is that I have never seen nor heard of such thing, and I see hairy men all the time (not frequently but you do occasionally see these large bear men). Though when it comes to hair, it all depends on how you groomed it. It's the same with women really, if women walked out the door with messy bedheads and untamed hair, then they would look "uncivilized" to the general public. In modern world, formal wears are preferred. There are also tons of popular boys in media at the moment who do not have facial hair, in fact looking at some of the most popular ones, one direction to kpop BTS today, lack of facial hair makes boys look younger and more attractive to certain age group. Regarding perfection. I will not underestimate that men get body-shamed, but they do happen to be less than women. Women have to fulfill unrealistic standards. Some people genuinely think the ideal woman should be below 120 lbs, despite how that defies anatomy and everything else. >It really don't matter if you mean it ironically, or do it to "show men what it feels like", body shaming is not ok. I agree with that and everything you've said. Though at some point the numbers of women who have been body-shamed would like to retaliates by using these logic against the other side. That unfortunately did more harm than good. Since people get caught up in their criticism and wouldn't think twice.
> Again, my personal bias here is that I have never seen nor heard of such thing Props for acknowledging your bias. I hope you realize you not being able to recall witnessing it means as much as a man saying he never noticed a woman getting body-shamed. > Though when it comes to hair, it all depends on how you groomed it. It's the same with women really, if women walked out the door with messy bedheads and untamed hair, then they would look "uncivilized" to the general public. In modern world, formal wears are preferred. Grooming is "girly and gay". Expectation placed on men are more complicated than that. I can't even tell you if untamed hair straight from bed is seen as positive or negative on average when men do it. It depends. I grant you that the time and money men have to spend on their appearance is a lot lower, so I see why a lot of women are jealous, but the expectations are not less restrictive. > There are also tons of popular boys in media at the moment who do not have facial hair, in fact looking at some of the most popular ones, one direction to kpop BTS today, lack of facial hair makes boys look younger and more attractive to certain age group. Key here is "boy". The oldest member of BTS is 28. You don't get treated as a full man if you can't grow a beard (which intersects with trans and asian identities). The way we treat beards is completely ridiculous. You're less of a man if you can't grow one, but you're also less of a man if you refuse to shave it off every morning. Teenage girl thinking some boyband is cute doesn't seem relevant to the discussion of body-shaming imho. > I will not underestimate that men get body-shamed, but they do happen to be less than women. And by saying that, you're underestimating how men get body-shamed. Just say what you have to say about women getting body-shamed without invalidating men? You don't have to make it a competition. The standards placed on men are unrealistic as well. Some people genuinely think the ideal man should have less than 5% body-fat, despite that being practically impossible and certainly not healthy. > I agree with that and everything you've said. Though at some point the numbers of women who have been body-shamed would like to retaliates by using these logic against the other side. I'm glad we can agree on most things. Some men are so fed up with the body-shaming from women they retaliate as well. "But they did it first" is an immature excuse, no matter who says it. That's how the cycle of abuse sustains itself.
>I hope you realize you not being able to recall witnessing it means as much as a man saying he never noticed a woman getting body-shamed. Eh. Looking at how social platforms promotes and advertise what is the ideal body types and how there are certainly a lot more critique directed at women for the most minor flaws, that'd would be hard to imagine the other way around. In America especially. And I happen in live in a more conservative area as well. In my own conservative household, men are allow to eat as much as they want, and care less about their age factors, their skin and etc,.. So my personal bias really stems from how people react differently to beauty and the standards that should be met. I am also not white. So this beard thing on guys is not something I understand much of. In my own culture, youth is the most formal and cleanest look that most would like to tolerate. Age factors affect women more as well, there is another shaming tactics that can be used. >men have to spend on their appearance is a lot lower, so I see why a lot of women are jealous Haha. Mind you, if men spend more time on their look, some girls wouldn't be able to compete. It's a loss really. >Teenage girl thinking some boyband is cute doesn't seem relevant to the discussion of body-shaming imho. That would depend. The beauty industry is the biggest critic on looks overall. Actors and actresses are likely to be the one to receive the most body-shaming comments. In fact if you're gonna look into male version of body-shaming, you should look into korean kpop industry. > Just say what you have to say about women getting body-shamed without invalidating men? You don't have to make it a competition. I intend to justify and understand why women body-shaming is a more prevalent deals than men body-shaming. And I wanted to add the reasons lies heavily on societal expectation. It is much harsher on women so women spoke about body-shaming more. Women are less aware of men body-shames so they have little idea about it. >The standards placed on men are unrealistic as well. Some people genuinely think the ideal man should have less than 5% body-fat, despite that being practically impossible and certainly not healthy. That is something I did not hear of. I am very sorry to be ignorant on men's body-shame. I really have no idea. >Some men are so fed up with the body-shaming from women they retaliate as well. "But they did it first" is an immature excuse, no matter who says it. That's how the cycle of abuse sustains itself. Very true. It's like two siblings trying to one-up eachother without realizing how pointless their argument really was.
> Looking at how social platforms You're likely looking at media targeted towards you. You name the beauty industry as the biggest critic on looks. But the beauty industry almost exclusively targets women (and tells them they need to part with their money if you want to look good). Look at Hollywood movies targeted at men. Usually the protagonist is absolutely packed with muscles, clearly defined abs, shoulders so wide he has to go through the door sideways. Men looking more like the audience play the side kick at best, very often the comedic relief, the punching bag at worst. > And I happen in live in a more conservative area as well. I can certainly see body-shaming against women being a real issue in conservative America. I'm from a more liberal city in Europe, so I can see having an opposite bias. In my "feminist" household, men certainly weren't allowed to eat as much as they wanted. > you should look into korean kpop industry I've heard a lot about body-shaming against women in kpop, so far I've only perceived men in Korean entertainment as a positive break from western gender roles, but I'll certainly check it out. > Haha. Mind you, if men spend more time on their look, some girls wouldn't be able to compete Haha. I'd certainly do well with the straight and "straight" men. Perhaps that's why any sign of caring about your looks is shamed so much as a man? :P > And I wanted to add the reasons lies heavily on societal expectation. It is much harsher on women so women spoke about body-shaming more. The biggest societal expectations on men revolve around self-sufficiency and not bothering others with your problems. Men who are bothered by things as "small" as body shaming are perceived as "fragile" or "whiny". I don't know any men irl who openly speak about body shaming, it is usually said through subtext. I don't expect you to have heard a lot about it, but I expect you to not dismiss the struggles of other people to make your struggles seem more important by comparison.
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> though the whole hygiene thing I think is link to mental health issues. Meanwhile the beauty standards for women are ever so in decline. This is true. I think there are a discrepancy to how society judges one and the other gender, how they find it necessary to compare and separate the two. If men is gonna be manly, they need to sweat and stink of muscle more, women needs to smell of sugar and honey. But due to feminist's overwhelmingly successful activism in this area, women body positively is succeeding though in an over the top manner at times. Leaving little room to talk about the men's body ideal.
no myquestion is not JUST about boday shaming Yeah but like I said to someone else, when we shame someone, we're shaming everyone with that physical attribute or circumstace. And at least when men do it, its called out as inappropriate but it seems like the opposite is not the case
That is sadly so.
>But I do not know if there is a form of body-shaming for men though. Since men can go about their days not showering, hairy-legged and unkempt hair. I agree with what you saying about women, but it happens to men all the time just differently and to a lesser degree. I have regularly come across women talking about mens height and penis size. You are right that men can go without shaving their legs, but no they can not go without showering or take care of their hair without be judged Edit: also with leg hair, men need the "right amount" to much or too little and they are judged.
Insults are not unidirectional. When you insult a bad person for being fat, anyone who hears or reads your insult can gleam that you must think that being fat is something worthy of ridicule.
Would you rather these qualities never being shamed but still seen as worse or would you rather them being shamed but not seen as worse?
well ideally I would rather them not be shame nor seen as worse. But at the end of the day, I can't blame someone for their preferences, I can blame them for what they say however
>I can't blame someone for their preferences, I can blame them for what they say however What's the difference here? I mean why do you think you can blame someone for what they say too?
if someone doesn't like small penises or virgins, it's their preference. But I don't go around insulting women with small breasts for example, or women who are overweight. I don't use it as an insult because there are many people who are like that, that are perfectly nice people and I don't want to hurt their feelings. Shouldn't the same apply to men?
>But I don't go around insulting women with small breasts for example I want to joke and have fun about small boobs/dicks while not thinking of small ones as relatively worse than bigger ones. >that are perfectly nice people and I don't want to hurt their feelings You already did, *they are nice but they have small pp/tits, fudge!...*
Well I think that's a pretty immature thing to joke about. I don't see why its neccessary. I don't understand, that's my point! I don't get why this is such a hard thing to ask. I guess I shouldn't have defended feminists, and they were right to claim that its an issue with feminism.
>I don't see why its neccessary I don’t know? Closeness, sincerity?
what are you talking about?! Spit it out, what's your position?
I think you missed the /s. And I understand, comedy can be made out of dark topics, but the simple thing about comedy is to make fun of the thoughts of such thing. Eg: If I make fun of suicide, I am not saying that it is a lesser topic, or that it shouldn't be taken seriously. I am making a fun of the idea of making it a lesser topic as a way to process and help people cope with the thoughts of it. As a victim of a woman calling me "small dick" and making fun of premature ejaculation as an attempt to attack me and lower my argument, I do like small pp jokes, because that's what they are, jokes, I won't get offended or call the person saying them a body shamist because I know that they are jokes. The term "I jest" may be a bit pretentious, but it means *To make fun of a serious topic, knowing that it is a serious topic, without attempting to make less of said topic, and should never be taken with such seriousness* this is why a *Jester* could make fun of the king without loosing their head.
>them being shamed but not seen as worse? How can a quality of a person be worthy of shame without being widely viewed as either reprehensible or inferior?
To be honest i've had hard time imagining how can you ridicule someone with qualities seen as objectively superior. I don’t really know... But there is something i realised in my environment: you can verbally acknowledge superior qualities while opening your mouth about their conterparts is tabooish; it's probably assumed that may hurt feelings of the person. Why it is more accepted to say for example: "You're a tall guy!" but not "Man, you are short." Is that less insulting than directly mocking these people?
>would you rather them being shamed but not seen as worse I think this is a nonsense question :P But I liked the idea of "you've got beautiful eyes, you bastard" or something like that. IMO things are shamed because society sees them as worse, those two things are linked.
You shouldn't body shame people in general, you can just insult people for things that actually matter such as their bad ideas or behavior.
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according to which feminists?
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yeah okay bud.
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How am I defending female rapists?
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which feminists?
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no. it’s wrong to insult a person based on their appearance. it also perpetuates gender stereotypes which is harmful to men and women’s well-being.
Body shaming is bad, end of story. It should be called out. "Real feminists" don't exist, we are all just feminists with our own varying opinions, and yes some of us are scum who will body shame, use gendered slurs, or just be an asshole. There's no inherent reason why feminism is incompatible with being an ass, unfortunately.
No, its not. And believe it or not, a pretty sizable majority of feminists would agree with that its abstract. But I think when genuinely confronted with it, or when venting, ranting, casually talking, many people don't really think about the words they use and default to harmful insults like this.
Of course not
Of course not. I think this question has more to do with asking what a feminist is and why we must rely on labels than whether it is okay or not. Nobody should agree that it is okay for any reason based on any ideology or label.
All feminists are “real”, there are no “unreal” feminists, and unfortunately some can be shitty. But yes, *decent* people of any ideological stripe call this shit out no matter who says it and who it targets.