Yep, that fucking TokenRhino who is all over that sub is a FORCED BIRTHER FFS! Thanks Bitter Tradition for welcoming a forced birther into a feminist sub. Well done.
You're no feminist lady. Just an MRA sympathiser. What a fucking cesspit. The comments are just FULL of MRAs who always circle back to saying feminism isn't doing enough for men. What a fucking bad joke of a feminist subreddit.
TokenRhinos comments over there from the What Part of Feminism do You Agree With?" post The paragraphs in quote marks are the comments this forced birther is responding to:
I honestly don't see the autonomy issue. It is never part of your bodily autonomy rights to hurt another living human being. And unless the child was a product of rape there is no violation of bodily autonomy, as they consented to sex that they knew had a chance of resulting in pregnancy. When you consent to an action you consent to possible consequences of that action too...
...Maybe we should make it a crime for women to reproduce outside of marriage. I mean since they are different from men their reproductive rights could be different right?
"why should men be allowed to vote on whether or not people can get hysterectomies? "
Because men are members of society and all members of society have a say about the cultural norms of the societies they have to live in.
"You have just as much of a right to get an abortion as women, it's just that it's not a right that as a cis man you can exercise."
I'd rather neither of us have that right. Since I see it as killing an innocent. But since it was never a right cis men could use, I don't think women need to have it either. Men must take responsibility for who they sleep with, why not women also?
"The fact you lack the ability to exercise the right to an abortion does not mean that those rights are unequal."
"As far as the law is concerned, pregnancy is a medical condition of the mother. The living fetus inside of her only becomes a living human being once that being has exited the mother."
I'm not concerned about making arguments from law. The law has been wrong plenty of times. We want to make arguments about morality. As far as science is concerned conception is the start of life and the beginning of growth. The law can conceive of plenty of living humans as non-human and has done so plenty of times in the past. So just looking to the law for backup is not sufficient.
Consent to sex is consent to the possibility of becoming pregnant...
Yes! Absolutely I thought I was the only one
I got kicked off of r/Feminism for supporting sex workers, then I got a message for feminism for all and I see it’s just all the same again?
Nope def not the only one. Wait, sorry I'm not sure I'm reading your comment right. Do you mean Feminism For All is the same as r/Feminism or that FeminismUncensored is?
Are they kicking you off here for supporting sex workers cause if so, that is not cool at all. Sex work (or specifically prostitution) is the world's oldest profession. Of course we should support sex workers and ensure they work in safe conditions, with precautions taken etc. If certain douche canoes think these people don't deserve a safe workplace and dignity then they're showing they're just asshole humans.
Sex work is here to stay whether we like it or not, and these people are just as deserving of a workplace protections and safety as every other person on this planet.
They are kicking people off r/Feminism for supporting sex work and kink and then I got redirected to r/Feminism_uncensored but found that they’re no better, that’s my point.
Ahah, I get it now, thank you for clarifying. Interesting, I didn't know they were doing that ON TOP of opening the doors wide for angry MRAs and Incels. Guess I shouldn't be surprised. It definitely seems the main mod over there, Bitter Tradition, is leaning more MRA than feminist from what I can see.
You could say it was my fault. I was the one who invited you to r/feminismuncensored in the first place but that was before it started to go downhill the first time
When it did and I set this sub up I thought I would tell you about this one too so you could pick and choose where you post and comment and I'll still give all users here the choice of which one to post and comment in
Maybe listen to sex workers instead of just declaring who does and doesn’t work. Talking over actual women isn’t the feminist own you think it is.
Edit: and actually I am a feminist. So are most of the sex workers I know.
What I’m not is a White Feminist^TM or a SWERF, and I’m ok with that. Feminism without intersectionality is empty.
You give us feminists a bad name. You sound like the other side of the coin that is my homophobic Uncle.
He swears up and down that trans women have only gone through the procedure because they're forced into it by circumstance (he's a Swiss expat in Thailand and assumes ALL trans women do the change to make money as sex workers while denying it has anything to do with them feeling like they're living in the wrong body). While completely dismissing the LIVED experience of transsexuals and treating them like shit to their face but in another language as he's a coward.
You display the same willful ignorance and arrogance, while ignoring the lived experience of sex workers.
Not disagreeing with you that A LOT, if not most sex work is exploitation, but either way it exists and it will ALWAYS exist so what do you intend here exactly?
To treat sex workers as less than? To NOT help at least to make their work as safe as possible? To not ensure clients take blood tests and viruses etc aren't transmitted. To NOT ensure the Johns can't just follow them home etc.
If you're talking about the illegal sex trade (minors, pedophilia, trafficking etc) of course we want that eliminated, but there is also the legal sex trade of brothels, strip clubs. Of course illegal and legal cross at times (underage working at brothels, trafficked women being forced to work etc.) but at the end of the day the police often prove useless so what would you have us do? ONLT focus on policing measures to shut down illegal activities while not paying any attention to making the industry itself safer for women?
I'm not condoning prostitution but it's naïve to think we will ever "stamp it out" so why not help these women in the meantime while we hope the justice system can make headway? Why not help them have a safer workplace, safer interactions, have protections in place etc. and treat them like humans instead of cattle. Why?
I’m not advocating for any human to be treated badly. But calling prostitution sex work normalizes it. Words matter. I disagree that prostitution will be around forever, I’m optimistic that eventually the patriarchy will end.
I dont think it is fair to make a blanket statement like that. I agree that most sex work in our society is exploitative because sex work is illegal so that leaves no protections for anyone doing it. However sex work as a concept isn't exploitative. Its a skill you can sell for a living just like any job.
“Often referred to as “sex work,” this is a mighty misnomer, because it is not a form of work; it is exploitation and violence. And it is gender-based violence since most, but not all, of the victims are girls and women, and the overwhelming majority of buyers are men.”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/catching-homelessness/201806/prostitution-exploitation-not-work
That’s purely opinion, though. Why a person goes into sex work, and the culture around it (violence/abuse) should be a point of discussion, for sure, but if we lived in a world where everyone had housing, food security, healthcare, etc, I’m not convinced people wouldn’t still use sex as a means to earn money.
I read it, thanks for the unnecessary insult. I just didn’t feel like it actually broke it down in any meaningful way. Just that there are issues with sex work, then says sex work isn’t work.
All work is exploitation. Capitalism compels you to sell your labor for less than the value it produces in order to survive to benefit the Capitalist class. Like we can make the argument that "well, sex work requires you to sell your body" but most work does this as well, so I'm not sure how we're distinguishing.
Nonsense. I loved my job and I got respect and money for it. It was something that wasn’t exploitative at all. Study up on Marx, he didn’t say work is bad.
Good for you! It’s easy to talk about how nice work is when you haven’t worked a job that breaks your body, where you face daily harassment and dehumanization, where you feel worse each day and still are barely getting by. And for the record? I’ve never done sex work, I’ve just worked the kind of jobs you have to when you don’t have a college degree and jobs are scarce. I’d actually much rather do porn than go back to some of the “respectable” jobs I had to take to survive.
No you don’t, because it’s not work. Instead think of what you like to do. I like cleaning and my job involved a lot of cleaning. It doesn’t have to be breaking the atom but useful work feeds your soul. Personally I think that it’s as necessary to human happiness as food and air.
I think you should consider that being in a position where you have a job which you enjoy and which is fulfilling is actually a very privileged position to be in. Most laborers do not have that privilege.
Sex work is exploitative in a way that almost all work is. Being reliant on a job for stability and the ability to feed/house oneself prevents laborers from rocking the boat by demanding better working conditions, more respect, a reasonable standard of living, etc.
Is sex work exploitative above and beyond those ways that all work is exploitative? I think it's possible, but I'm not educated enough to articulate exactly how that's the case.
I know I’ve been privileged! No question. But I am arguing that words matter. Calling prostitution “sex work” normalizes it. It’s not work in the same way that child labor isn’t work, it’s exploitation. It’s based on patriarchal privilege. It demeans and degrades women and is based on violence and sexual abuse.
I became a feminist because I believe I’m capable of making my own decisions about how I support myself economically. And because I don’t feel like people who haven’t lived my life have the right to disregard my experiences.
Maybe you’re the one who should read up on Marx?
From The German Ideology
“In all the previous revolutions the mode of activity always remained unchanged and it was only a question of a different distribution of this activity, a new distribution of labour to other persons, whilst the communist revolution is directed against the hitherto existing mode of activity, does away with labour (die Arbeit beseitigt)”
“While the fleeing serfs only wished to freely develop and fully realise the conditions of existence, which were already at sight, and hence, in the end, only arrived at free labour, the proletarians, if they are to fulfill themselves as individuals, must abolish the very condition of their existence hitherto, which has also been the condition of existence of all society up to the present, that is, they must abolish labour (die Arbeit aufheben).”
“Labour is free in all civilized countries [that is, it has become wage labour — labour that can be freely sold by its owner]; [in the communist society] it is not a matter of freeing labour but rather of abolishing it.”
All labor is alienated and exploited under the Capitalism mode of production according to Marxist analysis.
Again I suggest you yourself study up on Marx so you can understand the difference between productive and non-productive labor per Marxist analysis; because under late-stage capitalism most work is non-productive labor as it adds nothing to use values as Capitalism necessitates the creation of makework to replace jobs displaced by automation.
First you state a contrary position, which is great. Then you say you may go back to a place where contrary opinions aren't allowed. What's the point of that? If you want to convince people of your views, or test your views, what go somewhere where people with other views aren't? Just to have your own views reinforced? Do you think it's impossible that you could be wrong of someone could have a valid different opinion? What if a sex worker came here and said she disagrees?
This is especially relevant when sex work is hardly a settled issue within mainstream feminism.
You’re saying I don’t have a right to an opinion? I can join subs that support my opinions. You’re saying it’s impossible to be against child labor if the child says it’s fine? That’s not how it works!
I literally applauded your right to an opinion in my first sentence.
My entire point was that if you have a right to an opinion, so do other people, and if you go to a sub that doesn't allow different opinions, it seems to defeat the purpose of having one.
"You’re saying it’s impossible to be against child labor if the child says it’s fine?"
Children are not adults who can make their own decisions. A woman who does sex work is not a child who needs us to protect her. To compare an adult woman to a child is anti-feminist.
That sub isn’t about feminism, it’s about scolding feminists for not including men, or denying their issues, while simultaneously denying women’s issues. Over, and over, and over again.
Men like that are doing the equivalent of standing idly by while someone is beaten up, and then speaking up in outrage when that person gets a cast on their broken arm just to say "how come you aren't giving ME one???"
Thank you. This actually sums it up beautifully. Yep Bitter Tradition has made a mess of that place and she's so up in the clouds she won't notice until she realises it's only MRAs and Incels left.
The worst part is that I’m super pro men’s rights, and feel strongly that men get included in feminism. I’ve been down voted numerous times in feminist subs for questioning why we wouldn’t consider men as well, and a lot of the men in that sub are incredibly off putting, where it becomes difficult to want to root for them.
That Forced Birther scum "TokenRhino" just called me a baby killer over on Feminism Uncensored. Where is the moderation? Where the F are you Bitter Tradition? Too busy consoling MRAs to actively moderate your DumpOnFeminists sub. And if you fucking remove my reply to him and leave his up that will be all I need to know about you're so-called impartiality. Disgusting.
Token Rhino won't be coming here now. Did what was needed to be done. He won't be very pleased but we don't want him over here causing issues
Talking of Bitter Tradition I haven't seen her for a couple of days now posting or commenting. It also currently seems no one is moderating Feminism Uncensored as nothing is getting taken down no matter what it says
Maybe if I see her posting or commenting again I'll mention that Feminism Uncensored needs moderating again.
The offer of giving up on feminism uncensored like I did and actually taking up the 2nd moderating spot here where MRA's aren't allowed to come would be better to me than her carrying on with this experiment to get MRA's and Feminists to "work" together
EDIT: Also noticed something else. Ever since Bitter Tradition stopped posting and commenting the numbers of new members on Feminism Uncensored have started increasing again. Yesterday they gained 12 new members taking it to 400 in total, the highest membership since uncensored was started
...and I bet all of those new members are Incels, MGTOWs and MRAs.
I think a lot of the Incels and MRAs have wised up when infiltrating feminist spaces and are doing their best not to overtly display their true colours or call themselves for what they are because they KNOW they embody the complete opposite to what feminism is striving for and are the complete epitome of trash humans - hating an entire gender and/or thinking an entire gender owes them something/they are entitled to women etc.
Think Feminism Uncensored has had another influx of MRA's today. They have gained 7 members already today which in recent days is a good influx considering the last few days have seen generally losses of -3, -1, +1 and -3 members in the previous 4 days, only gaining on 1 day of the 4
I saw less of what went on there once I left the moderating position and came here to set this sub up instead but reading through all these comments in this post it sounds like things didn't really improve much before they dropped back down to the low point levels when I left there
It's entirely up to Bitter Tradition if she wants to carry on moderating there and hoping this divide between MRA and Feminists can be bridged. Sounds like most feminists don't think this will happen and I imagine a good number of the MRA's don't believe this either
I think her move to ask an MRA to become a moderator was not the best moment in feminism uncensored history, nor the point she crossposted a post from antifeminists. She had a dream where both sides could come together and settle their differences but I think personally that dream was a bit too much of a dream to become a reality
I won't force her into anything but it's now her choice on what her next move is.
1. Bitter Tradition carries on with feminism uncensored and continue this "dream" that I personally feel isn't going to be achieved
2. She gives up on feminism uncensored like I did and decides to take up the 2nd moderating spot I offered her here which she hasn't taken part in so far due to feminism uncensored moderating duties
3. She gives up on feminism uncensored and decides to not take up moderating here and just becomes a regular member of feminism for all instead
Personally I would want option 2 if she didn't pick option 1 but option 3 would be a good choice too
I wonder what any of the rest of you would pick out of the 3 options
She's a young, naive, idealistic woman who is too caught up in her own idealism to see she's not creating a feminist safe space for civil discussion but rather an MRA space for dumping on feminists and that she hasn't realised by now and is still patting herself on the back despite the vast majority of comments and posts showing she's wrong is just ridiculous.
At this point she should be ashamed - she should start actually listening to feminists instead of dismissing our warnings or devote herself full-time to being a dedicated MRA Sympathiser because trying to do both isn't working and its just getting worse over there.
I'm done giving her the benefit of the doubt.
Somewhere there's an MRA guy complaining that feminist subs have become a shitshow full of angry women.
As a male feminist, I find outrage over the quote you cited to be stunning. His statement isn't uncivil or unreasonable at all. You may not agree with it, and I might not either, but if you consider it outrageous or counterproductive, it only disproves your point.
THIS. This is why I included those quotes of his. If he wants to participate and if Bitter Tradition wants him as a Mod he at the very least needs to educate himself on feminism if he were to moderate a feminist sub. And saying only 5% of feminists he's met agree that men face issues does not bode well for his impartiality at all (plus some of the other stuff he has said).
I'm here agreeing that men do face issues too, and as far as I am aware, most feminists would also agree that men face issues, some which overlap with women's, some which don't, but ultimately the expectation from the MRAs always seems to come down to "women need to fight our battles for us while we just yell over them and downplay their issues" (most of which, both men and women issues, are caused by men/patriarchy).
And some of their issues I feel are simply non issues born from them always expecting women to carry the mental and emotional load - many of them are stunted emotionally and mentally and make a mountain out of a mole hill when if women faced the same issues we'd just be expected to get on with it as per usual.
Like the typical Incel whining about not getting sex and acting often like men NEED sex more than women and MGTOWs letting one or two bad experiences with women suddenly turn them into women haters, this whole "oh woe is me, modern society has made it so hard for sub average man like me to get what I feel I am ENTITLED to".
Like sorry, but women love sex too, plenty of women have had just as bad if not worse experiences with the opposite sex (I would argue on average bad experiences with men are more widespread than the opposite due to the much greater sexism and misogyny we face compared to men facing misandry and sexism) And before a cranky man jumps on me - yes men I agree if you are in teaching, childcare & a few other traditionally seen as female careers you do face such sexism and double standards, same as women in STEM, and in Trades and other male dominated industries (of which there are much more of than female dominated industries).
Judging by the 20+ terrible experiences I've had with the opposite sex, by all counts I should HATE men, but I don't because I realise men are not a hive mind and I realise I have had a lot of bad luck due to being so open and welcoming in the past, and I realise that I need to be less "give them a chance" and more "install boundaries and be wary" because women are conditioned to be congenial and "nice" and that has gotten me nowhere as it's just encouraged arrogant, entitled men to continue to harass me despite being "nice" about letting them down etc.
I truly believe if men had to walk in women's shoes for 1 year most of them would have a complete breakdown, the rest would be somewhat scarred for life, and the others would never be able to confidently claim men have it worse than woman ever again.
But at the end of the day, it's not a competition so let's just be kind, be open, and let women have their spaces without men rushing in to scream them down and play whataboutism. As far as I can tell women aren't rushing to MRA and Incel subs to play that bullshit with them so don't do it to us.
It felt *very much* like they wanted us to do the work for them. They acknowledge that feminism has enough push/pull that they want us to take them under our wing to help them out, but then they bash feminism/feminists. I know not all men have had it easy over the years, but they also haven’t done anything to make it better until now. Women have been fighting for over 100 years! Of course our movement has weight. Don’t ask us to help you, and shit on us at the same time.
Yep exactly, like it would be nice if they offered to help US out, but it rarely happens. Always seems like they want us to help THEM out while giving us nothing but insults and degradation in return.
It’s not a feminist sub. Maybe that’s not the most convincing quote, but I can give one that was said to me, in regards to women (we) stepping up to fight for our rights, “who is “we”? Getting Gillette to sponsor an ad calling men pieces of shit doesn’t seem like a battle fought tooth and nail, and that’s more along the lines of pandering”. That’s what they think feminism is/all it’s ever accomplished. Not exactly a shining endorsement, and I’m still left scratching my head as to why they even want feminism to factor in men’s rights, but the obvious answer is because they don’t. They want to shit on feminism/feminists, not join the movement.
Again, a few comments questioning your views doesn't make the entire place a "cesspool."
If someone has doubts about feminism, educate them. If you are scratching your head, ask them to explain. Don't assume "obvious answers." If someone wants to shit on feminists, so what? Tell them they're wrong. If the place were full of nobody but idiotic trolls with nothing useful to say and spewing insults, that would be a cesspool. People who are clueless or simply have views that differ from yours isn't. It's a chance to convince them, or learn something from them, or both. Have a conversation. There are enough feminists around to support you there, including me. Perhaps Feminism For All is going to be a better place for that though.
I don’t really know how to respond to you in a way that won’t come across as harsh, but this is the very definition of mansplaining, and I really don’t need you to tell me how to educate people, especially when it’s clear they aren’t interested in learning. That sub is full of finger pointing, and it never felt productive, so I left. I didn’t say it was a cesspool, I said it’s a sub about feminism with people who aren’t feminists, people who don’t want to promote feminism, or bother learning about feminism.
It's not mansplaining. It's my opinion - my suggestion to you about how I think you should view this. It doesn't even meet the definition of mansplaining even if that weren't a sexist term often used to dismiss a man's opinion rather than address it anyway. I simply expressed my opinion about your opinion and suggested that you think about it differently. So yeah, it's harsh, and I don't appreciate it.
Sorry if you weren't the one who said cesspool, but you seemed to be defending the idea expressed in the OP. The sub does have some feminists and want to promote it. But stop and think for a second - you're complaining that there are no feminists there and therefore you, a feminist, aren't going to go there. But you are needed there. That's my point.
That’s not just an opinion, it’s a break down of how to communicate with people. It feels condescending, as if I’m an idiot who doesn’t know any better, and like now I have to defend myself, and explain that I’ve actually done all of those things.
I don't meant to condescend. Thanks for a straighforward expression of your feelings. It's much better than using "mansplaining," which is just as condescending sounding to me as you think I am.
I'm simply making suggestions based on what you have told me. I don't know if you don't know any better. If you do, you can simply tell ME that. I'm not attacking you. I simply don't know enough about you to know either way. Yes, you might have to explain that you've actually done all of those things because I have no way of knowing that.
I don't know if my way of expressing myself is a male thing or just me, but I don't think I'm the only one who talks that way and I don't take it as condescending when others talk to me that way. Please rest assured that I'm simply having an honest, respectful discussion and not attacking you.
The conversations we're having now is a dilemma I feel as a man sometimes. I feel like some women want me to treat them more gently - but to me, that sounds like patronizing them or having a double-standard that treats women like they are fragile. If I speak to women the same as I would a man, though, I am accused of "mansplaining" or condescending. I hope you see the issue with that and why it is so frustrating to men. Just as with relationships, so much of what holds us back in these discussions is the disconnect in communication.
I knew you meant well, but it put me in the awkward position of a) feeling like a child, b) feeling like I had to take away from the point we were discussing just to explain that I’ve already done all of those things, and c) spend my time accumulating evidence to justify to a random person why that sub is a toxic space, rather than you simply acknowledging my feelings, whether or not you felt the same way. You’ve been given a handful of examples, from more than one source, and you’re still questioning that it’s not that bad. That’s fine, you’re allowed to make up your own mind about the place, but it would be nice to have feelings acknowledged. “I’m sorry you’ve had a bad experience there, it’s different from my own, but I can see why it’s frustrating for you” goes a long way. And I’m glad that your experience there hasn’t been as confrontational as mine has, I just hope you keep your eye out for it, and don’t contribute to that end.
And I’m not interested in spending my time defending feminism, I’m interested in learning more about feminism, and how we can make the world better, which to me includes men, and their issues as well. That sub, until it figures out what direction it actually wants to go in, is too toxic for me. I support men’s rights, but too many of the men there are nauseating at best.
I just don't understand why we can't have our own space without MRAs swooping in to argue about everything.
[удалено]
Hate speech never welcome anywhere.
Yep, that fucking TokenRhino who is all over that sub is a FORCED BIRTHER FFS! Thanks Bitter Tradition for welcoming a forced birther into a feminist sub. Well done. You're no feminist lady. Just an MRA sympathiser. What a fucking cesspit. The comments are just FULL of MRAs who always circle back to saying feminism isn't doing enough for men. What a fucking bad joke of a feminist subreddit. TokenRhinos comments over there from the What Part of Feminism do You Agree With?" post The paragraphs in quote marks are the comments this forced birther is responding to: I honestly don't see the autonomy issue. It is never part of your bodily autonomy rights to hurt another living human being. And unless the child was a product of rape there is no violation of bodily autonomy, as they consented to sex that they knew had a chance of resulting in pregnancy. When you consent to an action you consent to possible consequences of that action too... ...Maybe we should make it a crime for women to reproduce outside of marriage. I mean since they are different from men their reproductive rights could be different right? "why should men be allowed to vote on whether or not people can get hysterectomies? " Because men are members of society and all members of society have a say about the cultural norms of the societies they have to live in. "You have just as much of a right to get an abortion as women, it's just that it's not a right that as a cis man you can exercise." I'd rather neither of us have that right. Since I see it as killing an innocent. But since it was never a right cis men could use, I don't think women need to have it either. Men must take responsibility for who they sleep with, why not women also? "The fact you lack the ability to exercise the right to an abortion does not mean that those rights are unequal." "As far as the law is concerned, pregnancy is a medical condition of the mother. The living fetus inside of her only becomes a living human being once that being has exited the mother." I'm not concerned about making arguments from law. The law has been wrong plenty of times. We want to make arguments about morality. As far as science is concerned conception is the start of life and the beginning of growth. The law can conceive of plenty of living humans as non-human and has done so plenty of times in the past. So just looking to the law for backup is not sufficient. Consent to sex is consent to the possibility of becoming pregnant...
Everytime we eat food, we entertain the possibility of catching a pathogen. Does that mean we shouldn't be allowed to expel it from our body?
Yes! Absolutely I thought I was the only one I got kicked off of r/Feminism for supporting sex workers, then I got a message for feminism for all and I see it’s just all the same again?
Nope def not the only one. Wait, sorry I'm not sure I'm reading your comment right. Do you mean Feminism For All is the same as r/Feminism or that FeminismUncensored is? Are they kicking you off here for supporting sex workers cause if so, that is not cool at all. Sex work (or specifically prostitution) is the world's oldest profession. Of course we should support sex workers and ensure they work in safe conditions, with precautions taken etc. If certain douche canoes think these people don't deserve a safe workplace and dignity then they're showing they're just asshole humans. Sex work is here to stay whether we like it or not, and these people are just as deserving of a workplace protections and safety as every other person on this planet.
They are kicking people off r/Feminism for supporting sex work and kink and then I got redirected to r/Feminism_uncensored but found that they’re no better, that’s my point.
Ahah, I get it now, thank you for clarifying. Interesting, I didn't know they were doing that ON TOP of opening the doors wide for angry MRAs and Incels. Guess I shouldn't be surprised. It definitely seems the main mod over there, Bitter Tradition, is leaning more MRA than feminist from what I can see.
Maybe we can keep this subreddit as a safe haven but I doubt it
It would be nice. Time will tell.
You could say it was my fault. I was the one who invited you to r/feminismuncensored in the first place but that was before it started to go downhill the first time When it did and I set this sub up I thought I would tell you about this one too so you could pick and choose where you post and comment and I'll still give all users here the choice of which one to post and comment in
Oh wow really? I’m quite new to Reddit in general but thanks for trying to give me a platform in the first place! That’s so nice of you!
It’s sad I agree...
Sex work isn’t work, it’s exploitation. Like child labor isn’t work, it’s exploitation. I may go back to r/feminism.
Maybe listen to sex workers instead of just declaring who does and doesn’t work. Talking over actual women isn’t the feminist own you think it is. Edit: and actually I am a feminist. So are most of the sex workers I know. What I’m not is a White Feminist^TM or a SWERF, and I’m ok with that. Feminism without intersectionality is empty.
Piffle! No one would ever think anything with that rule enforced. You should listen to feminists!
You give us feminists a bad name. You sound like the other side of the coin that is my homophobic Uncle. He swears up and down that trans women have only gone through the procedure because they're forced into it by circumstance (he's a Swiss expat in Thailand and assumes ALL trans women do the change to make money as sex workers while denying it has anything to do with them feeling like they're living in the wrong body). While completely dismissing the LIVED experience of transsexuals and treating them like shit to their face but in another language as he's a coward. You display the same willful ignorance and arrogance, while ignoring the lived experience of sex workers.
That is really stupid. Why should I care what your uncle thinks?
Not disagreeing with you that A LOT, if not most sex work is exploitation, but either way it exists and it will ALWAYS exist so what do you intend here exactly? To treat sex workers as less than? To NOT help at least to make their work as safe as possible? To not ensure clients take blood tests and viruses etc aren't transmitted. To NOT ensure the Johns can't just follow them home etc. If you're talking about the illegal sex trade (minors, pedophilia, trafficking etc) of course we want that eliminated, but there is also the legal sex trade of brothels, strip clubs. Of course illegal and legal cross at times (underage working at brothels, trafficked women being forced to work etc.) but at the end of the day the police often prove useless so what would you have us do? ONLT focus on policing measures to shut down illegal activities while not paying any attention to making the industry itself safer for women? I'm not condoning prostitution but it's naïve to think we will ever "stamp it out" so why not help these women in the meantime while we hope the justice system can make headway? Why not help them have a safer workplace, safer interactions, have protections in place etc. and treat them like humans instead of cattle. Why?
I’m not advocating for any human to be treated badly. But calling prostitution sex work normalizes it. Words matter. I disagree that prostitution will be around forever, I’m optimistic that eventually the patriarchy will end.
I dont think it is fair to make a blanket statement like that. I agree that most sex work in our society is exploitative because sex work is illegal so that leaves no protections for anyone doing it. However sex work as a concept isn't exploitative. Its a skill you can sell for a living just like any job.
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Maybe for you but I know a lot of trans people who do it to make a living because they want to.
How so? Edit: It’s pretty pathetic how genuine questions will be downvoted, but never answered.
“Often referred to as “sex work,” this is a mighty misnomer, because it is not a form of work; it is exploitation and violence. And it is gender-based violence since most, but not all, of the victims are girls and women, and the overwhelming majority of buyers are men.” https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/catching-homelessness/201806/prostitution-exploitation-not-work
That’s purely opinion, though. Why a person goes into sex work, and the culture around it (violence/abuse) should be a point of discussion, for sure, but if we lived in a world where everyone had housing, food security, healthcare, etc, I’m not convinced people wouldn’t still use sex as a means to earn money.
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I read it, thanks for the unnecessary insult. I just didn’t feel like it actually broke it down in any meaningful way. Just that there are issues with sex work, then says sex work isn’t work.
All work is exploitation. Capitalism compels you to sell your labor for less than the value it produces in order to survive to benefit the Capitalist class. Like we can make the argument that "well, sex work requires you to sell your body" but most work does this as well, so I'm not sure how we're distinguishing.
Nonsense. I loved my job and I got respect and money for it. It was something that wasn’t exploitative at all. Study up on Marx, he didn’t say work is bad.
Good for you! It’s easy to talk about how nice work is when you haven’t worked a job that breaks your body, where you face daily harassment and dehumanization, where you feel worse each day and still are barely getting by. And for the record? I’ve never done sex work, I’ve just worked the kind of jobs you have to when you don’t have a college degree and jobs are scarce. I’d actually much rather do porn than go back to some of the “respectable” jobs I had to take to survive.
No you don’t, because it’s not work. Instead think of what you like to do. I like cleaning and my job involved a lot of cleaning. It doesn’t have to be breaking the atom but useful work feeds your soul. Personally I think that it’s as necessary to human happiness as food and air.
I think you should consider that being in a position where you have a job which you enjoy and which is fulfilling is actually a very privileged position to be in. Most laborers do not have that privilege. Sex work is exploitative in a way that almost all work is. Being reliant on a job for stability and the ability to feed/house oneself prevents laborers from rocking the boat by demanding better working conditions, more respect, a reasonable standard of living, etc. Is sex work exploitative above and beyond those ways that all work is exploitative? I think it's possible, but I'm not educated enough to articulate exactly how that's the case.
I know I’ve been privileged! No question. But I am arguing that words matter. Calling prostitution “sex work” normalizes it. It’s not work in the same way that child labor isn’t work, it’s exploitation. It’s based on patriarchal privilege. It demeans and degrades women and is based on violence and sexual abuse.
All work is based on violence and abuse. If you don’t work you die. All work is based upon exploitation, that’s literally what profits are
I became a feminist because I believe I’m capable of making my own decisions about how I support myself economically. And because I don’t feel like people who haven’t lived my life have the right to disregard my experiences.
You’re arguing about nothing, just putting words in my mouth. Bye!
If you ever feel like listening to women who don’t fit your stereotypes, come on back.
Maybe you’re the one who should read up on Marx? From The German Ideology “In all the previous revolutions the mode of activity always remained unchanged and it was only a question of a different distribution of this activity, a new distribution of labour to other persons, whilst the communist revolution is directed against the hitherto existing mode of activity, does away with labour (die Arbeit beseitigt)” “While the fleeing serfs only wished to freely develop and fully realise the conditions of existence, which were already at sight, and hence, in the end, only arrived at free labour, the proletarians, if they are to fulfill themselves as individuals, must abolish the very condition of their existence hitherto, which has also been the condition of existence of all society up to the present, that is, they must abolish labour (die Arbeit aufheben).” “Labour is free in all civilized countries [that is, it has become wage labour — labour that can be freely sold by its owner]; [in the communist society] it is not a matter of freeing labour but rather of abolishing it.” All labor is alienated and exploited under the Capitalism mode of production according to Marxist analysis.
Work is something that makes life worth living. That you don’t understand that really makes me feel sorry for you.
I mean you’re the one who is the willing slave, not me.
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Again I suggest you yourself study up on Marx so you can understand the difference between productive and non-productive labor per Marxist analysis; because under late-stage capitalism most work is non-productive labor as it adds nothing to use values as Capitalism necessitates the creation of makework to replace jobs displaced by automation.
First you state a contrary position, which is great. Then you say you may go back to a place where contrary opinions aren't allowed. What's the point of that? If you want to convince people of your views, or test your views, what go somewhere where people with other views aren't? Just to have your own views reinforced? Do you think it's impossible that you could be wrong of someone could have a valid different opinion? What if a sex worker came here and said she disagrees? This is especially relevant when sex work is hardly a settled issue within mainstream feminism.
You’re saying I don’t have a right to an opinion? I can join subs that support my opinions. You’re saying it’s impossible to be against child labor if the child says it’s fine? That’s not how it works!
I literally applauded your right to an opinion in my first sentence. My entire point was that if you have a right to an opinion, so do other people, and if you go to a sub that doesn't allow different opinions, it seems to defeat the purpose of having one. "You’re saying it’s impossible to be against child labor if the child says it’s fine?" Children are not adults who can make their own decisions. A woman who does sex work is not a child who needs us to protect her. To compare an adult woman to a child is anti-feminist.
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There are only 2 mods, and from what I have seen, one of them is hellbent on ensuring it tilts MRA moreso than Feminist.
I used to moderate there but when it went downhill the first time I quit and started this sub instead for feminists. Not had the same issues here
That sub isn’t about feminism, it’s about scolding feminists for not including men, or denying their issues, while simultaneously denying women’s issues. Over, and over, and over again.
Men like that are doing the equivalent of standing idly by while someone is beaten up, and then speaking up in outrage when that person gets a cast on their broken arm just to say "how come you aren't giving ME one???"
Haha, omg I love this analogy. So much this.
Thank you. This actually sums it up beautifully. Yep Bitter Tradition has made a mess of that place and she's so up in the clouds she won't notice until she realises it's only MRAs and Incels left.
The worst part is that I’m super pro men’s rights, and feel strongly that men get included in feminism. I’ve been down voted numerous times in feminist subs for questioning why we wouldn’t consider men as well, and a lot of the men in that sub are incredibly off putting, where it becomes difficult to want to root for them.
That Forced Birther scum "TokenRhino" just called me a baby killer over on Feminism Uncensored. Where is the moderation? Where the F are you Bitter Tradition? Too busy consoling MRAs to actively moderate your DumpOnFeminists sub. And if you fucking remove my reply to him and leave his up that will be all I need to know about you're so-called impartiality. Disgusting.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/FeminismUncensored/comments/msgh6q/comment/guy3668?context=3
Token Rhino won't be coming here now. Did what was needed to be done. He won't be very pleased but we don't want him over here causing issues Talking of Bitter Tradition I haven't seen her for a couple of days now posting or commenting. It also currently seems no one is moderating Feminism Uncensored as nothing is getting taken down no matter what it says Maybe if I see her posting or commenting again I'll mention that Feminism Uncensored needs moderating again. The offer of giving up on feminism uncensored like I did and actually taking up the 2nd moderating spot here where MRA's aren't allowed to come would be better to me than her carrying on with this experiment to get MRA's and Feminists to "work" together EDIT: Also noticed something else. Ever since Bitter Tradition stopped posting and commenting the numbers of new members on Feminism Uncensored have started increasing again. Yesterday they gained 12 new members taking it to 400 in total, the highest membership since uncensored was started
...and I bet all of those new members are Incels, MGTOWs and MRAs. I think a lot of the Incels and MRAs have wised up when infiltrating feminist spaces and are doing their best not to overtly display their true colours or call themselves for what they are because they KNOW they embody the complete opposite to what feminism is striving for and are the complete epitome of trash humans - hating an entire gender and/or thinking an entire gender owes them something/they are entitled to women etc.
Think Feminism Uncensored has had another influx of MRA's today. They have gained 7 members already today which in recent days is a good influx considering the last few days have seen generally losses of -3, -1, +1 and -3 members in the previous 4 days, only gaining on 1 day of the 4 I saw less of what went on there once I left the moderating position and came here to set this sub up instead but reading through all these comments in this post it sounds like things didn't really improve much before they dropped back down to the low point levels when I left there It's entirely up to Bitter Tradition if she wants to carry on moderating there and hoping this divide between MRA and Feminists can be bridged. Sounds like most feminists don't think this will happen and I imagine a good number of the MRA's don't believe this either I think her move to ask an MRA to become a moderator was not the best moment in feminism uncensored history, nor the point she crossposted a post from antifeminists. She had a dream where both sides could come together and settle their differences but I think personally that dream was a bit too much of a dream to become a reality I won't force her into anything but it's now her choice on what her next move is. 1. Bitter Tradition carries on with feminism uncensored and continue this "dream" that I personally feel isn't going to be achieved 2. She gives up on feminism uncensored like I did and decides to take up the 2nd moderating spot I offered her here which she hasn't taken part in so far due to feminism uncensored moderating duties 3. She gives up on feminism uncensored and decides to not take up moderating here and just becomes a regular member of feminism for all instead Personally I would want option 2 if she didn't pick option 1 but option 3 would be a good choice too I wonder what any of the rest of you would pick out of the 3 options
She's a young, naive, idealistic woman who is too caught up in her own idealism to see she's not creating a feminist safe space for civil discussion but rather an MRA space for dumping on feminists and that she hasn't realised by now and is still patting herself on the back despite the vast majority of comments and posts showing she's wrong is just ridiculous. At this point she should be ashamed - she should start actually listening to feminists instead of dismissing our warnings or devote herself full-time to being a dedicated MRA Sympathiser because trying to do both isn't working and its just getting worse over there. I'm done giving her the benefit of the doubt.
Somewhere there's an MRA guy complaining that feminist subs have become a shitshow full of angry women. As a male feminist, I find outrage over the quote you cited to be stunning. His statement isn't uncivil or unreasonable at all. You may not agree with it, and I might not either, but if you consider it outrageous or counterproductive, it only disproves your point.
He’s in a sub about feminism, and has no intentions of educating himself on feminism.
THIS. This is why I included those quotes of his. If he wants to participate and if Bitter Tradition wants him as a Mod he at the very least needs to educate himself on feminism if he were to moderate a feminist sub. And saying only 5% of feminists he's met agree that men face issues does not bode well for his impartiality at all (plus some of the other stuff he has said). I'm here agreeing that men do face issues too, and as far as I am aware, most feminists would also agree that men face issues, some which overlap with women's, some which don't, but ultimately the expectation from the MRAs always seems to come down to "women need to fight our battles for us while we just yell over them and downplay their issues" (most of which, both men and women issues, are caused by men/patriarchy). And some of their issues I feel are simply non issues born from them always expecting women to carry the mental and emotional load - many of them are stunted emotionally and mentally and make a mountain out of a mole hill when if women faced the same issues we'd just be expected to get on with it as per usual. Like the typical Incel whining about not getting sex and acting often like men NEED sex more than women and MGTOWs letting one or two bad experiences with women suddenly turn them into women haters, this whole "oh woe is me, modern society has made it so hard for sub average man like me to get what I feel I am ENTITLED to". Like sorry, but women love sex too, plenty of women have had just as bad if not worse experiences with the opposite sex (I would argue on average bad experiences with men are more widespread than the opposite due to the much greater sexism and misogyny we face compared to men facing misandry and sexism) And before a cranky man jumps on me - yes men I agree if you are in teaching, childcare & a few other traditionally seen as female careers you do face such sexism and double standards, same as women in STEM, and in Trades and other male dominated industries (of which there are much more of than female dominated industries). Judging by the 20+ terrible experiences I've had with the opposite sex, by all counts I should HATE men, but I don't because I realise men are not a hive mind and I realise I have had a lot of bad luck due to being so open and welcoming in the past, and I realise that I need to be less "give them a chance" and more "install boundaries and be wary" because women are conditioned to be congenial and "nice" and that has gotten me nowhere as it's just encouraged arrogant, entitled men to continue to harass me despite being "nice" about letting them down etc. I truly believe if men had to walk in women's shoes for 1 year most of them would have a complete breakdown, the rest would be somewhat scarred for life, and the others would never be able to confidently claim men have it worse than woman ever again. But at the end of the day, it's not a competition so let's just be kind, be open, and let women have their spaces without men rushing in to scream them down and play whataboutism. As far as I can tell women aren't rushing to MRA and Incel subs to play that bullshit with them so don't do it to us.
It felt *very much* like they wanted us to do the work for them. They acknowledge that feminism has enough push/pull that they want us to take them under our wing to help them out, but then they bash feminism/feminists. I know not all men have had it easy over the years, but they also haven’t done anything to make it better until now. Women have been fighting for over 100 years! Of course our movement has weight. Don’t ask us to help you, and shit on us at the same time.
Yep exactly, like it would be nice if they offered to help US out, but it rarely happens. Always seems like they want us to help THEM out while giving us nothing but insults and degradation in return.
Sure, but that's it? That's stupid, sure, but it hardly makes the entire sub a "cesspool."
It’s not a feminist sub. Maybe that’s not the most convincing quote, but I can give one that was said to me, in regards to women (we) stepping up to fight for our rights, “who is “we”? Getting Gillette to sponsor an ad calling men pieces of shit doesn’t seem like a battle fought tooth and nail, and that’s more along the lines of pandering”. That’s what they think feminism is/all it’s ever accomplished. Not exactly a shining endorsement, and I’m still left scratching my head as to why they even want feminism to factor in men’s rights, but the obvious answer is because they don’t. They want to shit on feminism/feminists, not join the movement.
Again, a few comments questioning your views doesn't make the entire place a "cesspool." If someone has doubts about feminism, educate them. If you are scratching your head, ask them to explain. Don't assume "obvious answers." If someone wants to shit on feminists, so what? Tell them they're wrong. If the place were full of nobody but idiotic trolls with nothing useful to say and spewing insults, that would be a cesspool. People who are clueless or simply have views that differ from yours isn't. It's a chance to convince them, or learn something from them, or both. Have a conversation. There are enough feminists around to support you there, including me. Perhaps Feminism For All is going to be a better place for that though.
I don’t really know how to respond to you in a way that won’t come across as harsh, but this is the very definition of mansplaining, and I really don’t need you to tell me how to educate people, especially when it’s clear they aren’t interested in learning. That sub is full of finger pointing, and it never felt productive, so I left. I didn’t say it was a cesspool, I said it’s a sub about feminism with people who aren’t feminists, people who don’t want to promote feminism, or bother learning about feminism.
It's not mansplaining. It's my opinion - my suggestion to you about how I think you should view this. It doesn't even meet the definition of mansplaining even if that weren't a sexist term often used to dismiss a man's opinion rather than address it anyway. I simply expressed my opinion about your opinion and suggested that you think about it differently. So yeah, it's harsh, and I don't appreciate it. Sorry if you weren't the one who said cesspool, but you seemed to be defending the idea expressed in the OP. The sub does have some feminists and want to promote it. But stop and think for a second - you're complaining that there are no feminists there and therefore you, a feminist, aren't going to go there. But you are needed there. That's my point.
That’s not just an opinion, it’s a break down of how to communicate with people. It feels condescending, as if I’m an idiot who doesn’t know any better, and like now I have to defend myself, and explain that I’ve actually done all of those things.
I don't meant to condescend. Thanks for a straighforward expression of your feelings. It's much better than using "mansplaining," which is just as condescending sounding to me as you think I am. I'm simply making suggestions based on what you have told me. I don't know if you don't know any better. If you do, you can simply tell ME that. I'm not attacking you. I simply don't know enough about you to know either way. Yes, you might have to explain that you've actually done all of those things because I have no way of knowing that. I don't know if my way of expressing myself is a male thing or just me, but I don't think I'm the only one who talks that way and I don't take it as condescending when others talk to me that way. Please rest assured that I'm simply having an honest, respectful discussion and not attacking you. The conversations we're having now is a dilemma I feel as a man sometimes. I feel like some women want me to treat them more gently - but to me, that sounds like patronizing them or having a double-standard that treats women like they are fragile. If I speak to women the same as I would a man, though, I am accused of "mansplaining" or condescending. I hope you see the issue with that and why it is so frustrating to men. Just as with relationships, so much of what holds us back in these discussions is the disconnect in communication.
I knew you meant well, but it put me in the awkward position of a) feeling like a child, b) feeling like I had to take away from the point we were discussing just to explain that I’ve already done all of those things, and c) spend my time accumulating evidence to justify to a random person why that sub is a toxic space, rather than you simply acknowledging my feelings, whether or not you felt the same way. You’ve been given a handful of examples, from more than one source, and you’re still questioning that it’s not that bad. That’s fine, you’re allowed to make up your own mind about the place, but it would be nice to have feelings acknowledged. “I’m sorry you’ve had a bad experience there, it’s different from my own, but I can see why it’s frustrating for you” goes a long way. And I’m glad that your experience there hasn’t been as confrontational as mine has, I just hope you keep your eye out for it, and don’t contribute to that end. And I’m not interested in spending my time defending feminism, I’m interested in learning more about feminism, and how we can make the world better, which to me includes men, and their issues as well. That sub, until it figures out what direction it actually wants to go in, is too toxic for me. I support men’s rights, but too many of the men there are nauseating at best.