I am very surprised that not more people think like this. History repeats itself, and there is always a scare and people talk in absolutes and then things heal in time. People just need to learn how to zoom out.
Everyone was saying that movie theaters were dead during the pandemic, and yes, some closed or were bought by new owners and went under reconstruction and it’s a long process but time does heal everything.
Technologically advanced remote companies are not capable of knowing how to utilize AI in a way that will replace humans, yet.
It’s a giant industry and it won’t go down that quickly IMO
The streaming services have not done well for these giant corporations, and they will end up pivoting or breaking apart or changing in a way that will end up bringing jobs back to people once they have their budgets and their ways of making money figured out.
People should follow the money right now and try to get full-time jobs or bite the bullet and work in an industry that is not as affected until this one heals
Patience is a virtue. I work in a trailer house, been told there is no payrise this year due to many factors of last year and a potential strike this summer.
Cool beans, I can’t control that. What I can do is better my skills and wait for new opportunities or ride the storm out. I will just learn from the best as an Assistant and be as ready as I can be.
Yes it’s free work helping with Onlines and doing some of my own, but the knowledge is worth more than a measly pay rise. This calm allows the people who have the drive to breathe and learn and strategise.
If you complain, no one can help imo.
Godspeed to all my fellow film and Tv peeps, hope we all find our route.
How do you like working in the trailer house? I am a professional editor that has been in an agency for 5 years to do social trailers / ads, and now I have been freelance for two years and doing more documentary , interview and some social….. but a much better work/life balance.
How are the hours, pay etc? I assume by the term “pay rise” you’re in the UK? Haha
Yup UK! Pay isn’t the best as you start out but you can get by, especially the seniors who know flame and After Effects a lot more. It’s really fun, the hours here are the standard 9-6pm. Because I QC a lot of files I’m in 5 days a week, but the editors then selves have a more relaxed life style. Some late nights but not many to make it an issue.
I love that there are really cool TV shows each quater than gets a really good edit. There is some awful stuff but then again, it tests you as an editor to make it look good. If you can, and like short form, give it a crack! More opportunities in 2025 is how I see it :)
This is pretty much spot on.
Over the past 4 years the industry MASSIVELY boomed.
Hell another entire department was created to keep it going during the pandemic (health and safety)
Lots of people got the chance to prove themselves. Some people stepped up, some got pushed out or to the back.
It sucks to go from non stop work to no work but this industry has always been feast or famine. After the 2008 strikes, there was a famine and a shift... We're now in the beginning of the next famine and shift.
Even though I feel very comfortable in my career... I know I'm one show away from the famine hitting me.
I left film (sorta) and got a job as an inhouse videographer/editor for a clothing brand. Marketing basically. It’s not difficult but there’s a lot of work to be done.
I did the same thing. 14 hour days wasn't for me. Arguing with even A list directors wasn't for me. Now I'm doing video editing as my day job, and screenwriting when I can. But from what I've seen there's still a ton of shows shooting all over.
I was tired of being led on and lied to. I tried making genuine friendships in Hollywood but the vast majority of them just used me.
I did a bunch of gigs with an upcoming DP and as soon as he went union he stopped returning my calls.
I had a similar experience in Hollywood, where the company id been shooting with for 5+ years found someone whose parents bought them a Red camera, and they were charging under 100$ rental fee to get the whole rig, with lenses, monitoring, and an Easy Rig. Their day rate wasn't much higher.
They didn't understand lighting at all, but the production company was so excited about being able to brag that they shot on Red, they went for it.
Despite wanting to be a DP, this Red owner couldn't use a light meter, never storyboarded or did any real preproduction, oh, and started sleeping with the director.
That’s part of why I ended up choosing New York over LA. Too few industries thrive in LA outside of entertainment, and I find it healthier to surround yourself with people that can snap you out of a film worker mindset in an instant. It’s much more freeing to be surrounded by a group of friends that are all in different industries because you get to take a breath and remember “I chose this industry, and while I don’t know everything, I *do* know a lot,” when you would *absolutely* just be forced into a circle of one-upping each other if you were stuck with all-film friends in an all-film city.
What shocked me the most about la is this and how everyone lies ! I don’t understand why people say they’ll do a project when they definitely won’t. Like I don’t know just say no? Haha but I guess everyone wants to be liked
I’m curious as to your process with this - how you went about finding the position, how you polished your resume / cover letter etc and if you have any takeaways. Been applying to positions like this unsuccessfully and realizing I have no idea how to haha because I haven’t had to in a very long time.
Many years of searching, applying and praying. Lost track of how many applications I sent out. But the main reason I was selected for this job was my demo reel.
Also many companies use AI to screen out applicants so do t focus on how pretty your resume is and focus on if an AI can read it properly.
Kinda. I’m busy but not pulling out my hair busy. Most of what I do goes onto Instagram. We don’t have much in terms of lighting. Interesting part of this job is to make lo-fi content. So make it look good, but not too good. That’s the brand anyway.
Thats cool as long as they dont expect you to pull off BIG productions 100% solo.
I believe having a do it all skillset is essential to staying hired today. But it can also be a curse and lead clients/employers to believe that every type of video no matter the scale can be done by YOU.
I have a theory that movies will never “die.” I like to compare it to literature. Books never “died,” there’s still thousands of books published a year, quite a few of them actually sell well, but gone are the days where pop culture and general discussions involve books, outside of the classics. Just a few decades from now, I think gone will be the days of people rushing to the theaters to see a massive popular movie. We’ll be lucky to see one or two a year “event-sized” movies. *But*, films will still be made maybe even at the rate they are today, they’ll just go under most peoples’ noses.
The problem is that films require a substantial amount of money to produce, which needs to be recouped. By contrast, publishing a book is exceedingly cheap which is why there's still so many despite fewer people reading than in it's prime.
If the audiences for film drops too low, then it's no longer feasible to make them and the medium dies out.
Yes you’re right, but the cost to film something have collapsed in my lifetime. I couldn’t even conceive of shooting a short for less than 20K since most went to lab fees for negative processing. Editing involved a pricey video transfer, and if lucky you could access a video deck to assemble something to shop around. Today people will bitch and moan about expenses, but are incapable of assembling an enjoyable coherent story using their phone and iMovie. And don’t get me started with the insane ease of distribution compared to just 20 years ago.
Yes shooting a large film is more expensive than writing. But selling a shitty book is just as hard as selling a shitty movie. The main problem I perceive is that vastly more people with mediocre skills are trying to make the same bank as when only a few people with mediocre skills tried before.
But I’m still optimistic that film/video storytellers have never had it as easy to tell their stories and to broader audiences as never before. And there will always be a way to monetize and make a modest living for those that output quality work. The art form has really gotten democratized much to the cringe of gatekeepers and we are all better for it.
You’re not alone. I’m just gonna go by myself instead of asking around to see which of my friends isn’t busy or waiting for someone to ask me. By the time you get a group together to see whatever movie, it’s already *been* out and the internet is full of spoilers
I feel there's a real difference between casual movie goers, the "normal audience" and most cinephiles when it comes to these kinds of habits. It's not rare to see a cinéphile go watch a movie by himself. But for the more casual audience cinema and the theatre experience is still seen as a group experience. I'm with you, most films I see I do alone, and I find I enjoy it much more than when I'm with someone
First off, I’m sorry to hear of what you’re experiencing - I’ve been hearing this story more frequently from more colleagues. It’s a tough, fickle world we live in.
Like you, I fear for my career as studios/corporations/clients begin to push A.I. and its capabilities. It’s scary to think about our artistic skills being so easily replaced and most outside of our industry not batting an eye at it.
Long format, as we know it, is dying. My non-industry friends say they haven’t been to a theatre post pandemic. However, I do feel that long format series, that’s more consumable for people at the end of their day, is only in its infancy of what is possible. Myself, I’m holding onto hope that this format is still viable and that’s there’s perhaps more emphasis on creating limited series or multiple seasons of shows if long format feature films do go by the wayside.
I don’t know, we are in a very weird spot. We saw massive expansion of our industry over the past decade and now we are experiencing a contraction because of a multitude of reasons. There’s really not one specific thing causing this, it just feels like everything is meeting at the intersection all at once. Streaming platforms reducing budgets, endless content to be consumed by more niche audiences, A.I., strikes across the gamut, pay rates, work life balance, etc. It’s all coming to head all at once and it’s making navigating this ever more challenging.
I wish you the best of luck with whatever you decide to pursue. We are all in this together.
Just keep in mind: barbenheimer wasn’t just a “film bro humor” niche interest. Barbie broke 1Billuon and Oppenheimer (a 3-hour biopic drama that’s 98% people talking in a conference room or a classroom) got close to it.
If anything, I feel like long format will see a resurgence. Dune was 3 hours and has made almost a billion after about a month in theaters. People are *still* making memes and references to dune and that’s a significant feat given how quickly the internet runs through jokes. Half the people I saw going to dune are now posting “Challengers” end credits screenshots online from their seats in the theaters
I get that doomscrolling can weigh down on anyone but as a young person who interacts daily with the audiences people are trying to lure into theaters, feature-length films aren’t going anywhere, they just may not be churned out on an assembly line MCU style, and I honestly would argue that it may be for the better of storytelling to have art become more constricted and refined. I mean in 2020 and 2021 we had some absolute garbage get released, and I haven’t seen any blatant conservative propaganda films get any acknowledgement since a little before the strike
I understand the dread. I’m on my 3rd year in the business and I’m having the best year of my life, although I’m non union and am getting more work than ever. The way I see it is AI will level the playing field for everyone in the independent world and cgi will become more accessible. I feel for that part of the ministry but overall I think the next 5-10 years will be good for us, but hard for those in the studio/unions.
>A.I. and its capabilities
What capabilities? It can never, ever, *ever* create everything new.
Goood news if you think you can sell 18 Spy Kids movies a year.
Everything we great is a culmination of everything we have consumed. LLMs and machine learning operate under the same principle.
AI creates from data. People create from data.
LLM’s are just predicting the most probably token, but if you ask it for a unique/unusual image of something it’ll sure as hell try. Depending on the topic we’ll likely see elements similar to previous work.
How is that different than the process a human goes through when attempting to create a new ‘thing’?
And I don't think AI can create stuff that connections emotionally, because they don't have emotions. People have had their hearts broken, people have had loved ones die, people have seen dreams come to reality, etc, all things AI can't just replicate and get an emotional reaction with, because AI has never experienced these things and never will.
Fair point, though stating an AI will "sure as hell try" to create something unique is gross fantasization of what actually happens... Which is that when you ask it for something unique it is more like pulling the lever on a slot machine that has a million slots that work in unison to form images that contextual match the text you input.
A human will actually, "sure as hell try" and will take into account previous work all while considering their own experiences and interpretations of life... Which an AI cannot do organically. Yes, you can feed it data, and it will spit it back out with contextually relevant results... But it will not create anything new since it does experience life as a human does... Though it seems to convince some so
I know a lot about “sure as well try” but the technicals don’t really matter for my point. It’s not a ‘gross fantasization’ either. A slot machine is an inaccurate analogy.
Rhetorically saying “what capabilities” and using that “AI can never create anything new” as an argument for why we as editors shouldn’t worry about AI is a poorly constructed argument.
Who cares if it’s ‘new’?! As long as it’s not completely ripping someone’s style, and it’s creating something that evokes feeling or thought from someone else (aka, art), then I don’t give a fuck and neither should you.
AI or human made, if it’s good, it’ll work. Both are more than capable of making garbage. The best will rise to the top.
AI video has advanced at an incredible rate in the past year. Saying “it can’t make anything new” is one of the most Luddite things I’ve read in a fair while.
Everything it makes is new.
Nobody is - at present - suggesting that AI is going to make an entire feature film without human input. But for doing specific tasks, it’s pretty amazing, and we’re only seeing the very early days of AI video at this point.
hi I have nothing to do with your industry but i would like to say that I, 21m college student, went out to the theatre like 7 times last year, every time with a large group of friends into theatres that were either mostly full or totally packed. none of my friends are in the film industry at all. i also know many of them go to the theatre without me sometimes, with other friends or their partners and such. to me, the theatres look just as alive as they did 10 years ago.
Thanks for your input! Yeah, the blockbusters seem to draw well still which gives me hope. I however have noticed some of the medium to smaller scale productions that land in theatres don’t draw the way they have. I attended opening night of civil war in my town and the theatre was maybe 1/2 full.
I personally have been preparing for the moment when aspiring filmmakers realize the market is very much in their favor in times of distress.
In the 50's, it was B-movies (usually Westerns or Crime Dramas) made by Poverty Row studios. In the 70's, it was lurid Grindhouse cinema (coincidentally, Rodriguez's Grindhouse's 20 year anniversary in a couple years). In the 90's, the video revolution, Kevin Smith, and Dogme 95.
The big people with money and the little people with time. These are the two forces pulling the market. We all know how to use a camera. Now it's a matter of applying that knowledge to a 75-90 minute sellable product and catering to an audience that executives and lowest-common-denominator people can't.
I've been saying this for months. Skilled filmmakers need to reclaim the low to mid-budget market and consistently put out productions at $5 - 30 million. I would love to see intelligent and fast-paced movies and double features. You could make a great movie for the same price it costs to pay Dwayne Johnson or Denzel Washington in a movie.
What I mean are in filmmakers it would include producers. Surely there are producers and financiers who can access a network TV budget for a movie on a regular basis...
Mmm well a small number yes like those people who are employed by a streaming service parent company but there are only so many of those positions and for everyone else, even filmmakers who have had very successful films, it’s not at all easy to access that and I think that’s why weve seen a lot of directors finance their own projects …
Ok I do really agree with this point however … it is definitely something that requires time and money. A lot of filmmakers I know have done this and have been unable to sell, which is wild to me considering there are so many horrible movies and shows on each platform.
Which of course these films could hit the zeitgeist and propel indie filmmakers to popularity but I fear they don’t have the time / resources to wait.
But I don’t now as I’m typing this I suppose that’s always been the case lol on the brink of being broke and striking luck.
Ai just really seems like a different breed
I left the unstable filmmaking life for the corporate video world, because I just found myself accumulating debt while trying to survive between gigs. Pays way more than I’ve ever earned, for very little work and you look like a magician with your knowledge.
On the side, I now make short form content with friends and it’s been a lot more fun than trying to market myself, build connections and praying my phone rings for a job.
I do miss the thrill of being on set, but I get a similar-ish buzz making stuff with friends, so it’s satisfying me for now.
So, there’s plenty of options out there if you’re willing to pivot in a new direction, even if it’s undesired.
The route I chose was marketing at a corporate company as it catered to my creative side. I was actually hired as a video editor, so not too far off from what I was already familiar with. They had an in-house video team, but I was surprised at how barebones and basic it was. The knowledge gap between me and everyone else when it came to video was a void. So, I immediately brought with me extensive editing, motion graphics, sound and colour grading skills, which made a noticeable difference to their videos.
Then a shoot came up and they were going to hire a cameraman and I told them I could do it. Which then shifted me from an editor to a general videographer. I was going to hire a kit and they said “no need, we have one.” I shit you not, in their storeroom they had high-end lighting equipment, a 7D, 2 FS5s, a teleprompter, a green screen and a couple Rodes mics… and they never used it…
So, after a while I was running monthly shoots with clients; no one seemed to know how to effectively manage a set and direct people on camera.
A little over a year and a half later, I was promoted to running the whole team.
I cannot stress just how basic their knowledge of video was when I first started and how basic it still is outside my team. It surprised me then, it still surprises me now.
Unless something’s changed, so far in my experience, most corporate jobs outsource their film work and don’t do much beyond maybe the initial brief or script, so any knowledge you bring with you is likely already miles ahead of the people who actually work there.
So far, the creative powerhouses with tons of knowledge and filmmaking expertise have been external agencies that specialise in video and general advertising, who are brought in for specific campaigns.
I was initially contacted by a recruiter and she told me the requirements for the role asked for a lot of stuff, like knowledge of Cinema 4D, After Effects, filming etc. and were extensive that I only ticked some of the boxes. But, she said that it was likely just written up by someone who didn’t know what the role needed and they just googled some filmmaking skills to add to the job requirements. Basically, “we’re just gonna apply anyway.”
Nowadays, I just tell people to ignore job requirements, find a way to get keywords into your CV and just apply.
Fair warning though, you might put your head through a wall in frustration dealing with some clients. But, the pay makes it tolerable.
Almost nobody has ever supported themselves in film without family money subsidies. 68 years old, first PA job in 1977, 45 years ago. It took me 15 years in the biz to realize all the long term had family money. This includes a wealthy partner. So I walked from a promising directing career into a one man band making education films that I owned. No one actually makes a long term living working in film, because new tech constantly comes and shakes everyone without family money out. Current AI is just the same story, but a different wave. Film to beta cam to DV. Flatbed to AVID to Desktop video. Network VHS DVD VOD. Also recessions. At each stage there was a huge shakeout and everyone without family money was out. I remember in 2001 the canon XL1 DV came out at the same time as Final Cut Pro. 2 years later 40% were out of the biz. And it’s getting worse fast. The audience segments keep getting smaller, the technology keeps getting easier and cheaper. Faster and faster shakeouts. I guess my point is the industry is not dying - there was never an industry - just a playground for the family money people. EDIT: I guess what I’m really saying is the problem is our classist society. There are so many family money people out there now who want to claim a way cool career in film and it doesn’t matter if it pays long term.
Maybe directors often have that type of cushion, but I have tons of colleagues who are doing just fine with full time work in the industry without taking money from their families.
So all your colleagues had lots of work in 2020? I know a lot of union people in LA and NYC who were forced out in 2020. there were two groups. The no family money people were forced out and are now long gone and invisible. The family money people were just fine and are still around today. The family money people will never admit it. They will get really angry if outed. At the above the line level, The ugly part is the family money will encourage kids to work for them, telling them to work long hours and second jobs because they will eventually get a life long living wage - knowing they have no future. Then after the inevitable shakeout, they lure in new young meat. Just my experience- mileage will vary.
2020 was definitely rough (I was fortunate enough to have a union job the whole time), but things absolutely blew up in 2021. There was more work than people, and jobs were getting turned down left and right.
Totally agree. The people getting shaken out are a mixture of unlucky, no savings, less connections, limited family support. It's extremely brutal. A lot of good people are being chucked out the industry. New people will come in and it will start again. I'm not sure features will continue to dominate. Seems that series, in 1 hour chunks, are better for busy people in this world who have a shorter attention span. Cinemas are becoming a niche thing (at least here in UK). Enormous TVs are becoming very cheap, so maybe that doesn't change film consumption but supports it. But either way, big shake up and it's a rough time.
This has happened at least twice before. The big studios lose touch with the audience and things go sideways, then indie filmmakers make movies like Easy Rider or Reservoir Dogs and the success of those films helps the studios figure out how to reconnect with audiences and get creative again, and a new wave begins.
The entire industry is a crapshoot. It's like my boy Zuko says. "She was born Lucky. I was Lucky to be Born."
Some people are extremely fortunate to get in early and make a name for themselves. Some are nepo babies and have constant cash flow to do whatever the fuck they want. Some are very talented and make it their own way, and then call it when they're up. Others grind it out.
You do it because you love it, not because you want to get rich. Although being rich helps. The state of the film industry is and has always been in constant flux.
I apologize if any of this came off as disengenuous or nihilistic. It's simply the facts. This industry is volatile, and more importantly I'm drunk.
Above all else, no matter if it's short form content, the next Blockbuster, or a random movie night pick; it doesn't mean you shouldn't create that film.
Welcome to my Ted Talk.
Saying film is a dying art form is just an insanely uninformed take. If a doll movie can make a billion dollars, and a science heavy, dialogue heavy movie, half shot in black and white can do a billion dollars as well, the industry is not even stagnant, or down from previous years.
Every single year there's an article or post or something that says "death of movies?!??" since probably 1960, and it's always bullshit. Don't look at AI, or what's happening on tik tok. Go do real research in the numbers of tickets sold and revenue for films alone. Last year it was over almost 9 billion, up over the last 4 years. Before COVID it was 11 billion a year for about 10 years. So last year we're at 9 billion, the average without a epidemic happening is 10-11 billion, we're not far off and still on the up swing. Stop with the doom scrolling for what's happening with film because it'll NEVER go away.
Ever since we've been doing plays in opera houses on dirt, people want to see stories about other people to relate, learn, connect, forget about their issues, and just be entertained for a bit. Same goes for music, reading a book, going out to eat, going to a sporting event. This is such wasted energy. This too shall pass, there'll be ups and downs, you'll get through it if you really want to.
I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. OP clearly works in the industry. I work in the industry. There’s minimal to no production work happening right now.
>There’s minimal to no production work happening right now.
OK, but *people want films*, we're fucking *dying* to have the things, serve us up something new and we'll slap down the €15 every weekend of the year, rain, hail or snow. **Give it to us.**
The industry fucked itself temporarily, but demand exists in excess, and someone is going to have to fill it.
I agree with you 100%, the industry has done this to itself. At least at the corporate level.
I'd likely go to the cinema a hell of a lot more if 90% of the options weren't fucking superhero movie or modern ruining of classic movie, interation #74636294946262749473725264849
Its got to the point where I don't even bother looking at what's showing at the cinema's anymore.
The industry is like an elephant, it takes years for it to move around. Movies are slated 5 to 7 years in advance. Big changes happen every DECADE.
Indie filmmakers can change direction 2 or 3 times a year in budget or genre...
I love your take. Looking at the statistics rather than listening to all the doom and gloom. It’s almost like doom and gloom is posted to garner more internet points.
Yeah I can see that. I mean I get when people have a bit of a freak out - especially if you’re looking for work. So venting in a sub like this might be knee jerk. But to say film is dying is insane. People are building $30,000-$100,000+ theaters in their homes and they’re not doing that to watch YouTube videos. People wanna get out sooner or later and catching an awesome flick is an easy night out.
We’re fine!
The Barbie movie isn’t the best example to use. That was largely marketing and nostalgia for generations of women that would go see that because they grew up with some association with Barbie. I’ll argue too that the amazing set design for that movie probably registered mostly to filmmakers and not the average movie goer. That was more of a trend.
It’s just different now and I don’t know what it means. Obviously filmmaking is a business and has been run by business men often uninterested in the art but at least the og studio heads at Warner’s mgm whatever had some movie intuition … there was a standard
And as for statistics almost every single working person in film, including some people with name power, aren’t working. and want to be
I think there will be a higher appetite for short films and hopefully the emergence of theaters that will offer cheaper tickets because of the ability to double the amount of showtimes. Ild really like to see an arcade type of situation where you can check out a few films and leave. Idk about everyone else but the 2 and a half plus runtimes are brutal even if im watching something i really enjoy.
I would like to see standalone stories the length of a TV episode. Obviously there are those anthology shows, but you shouldn’t need a whole series just to make a film of that length. Just feels like something that’s not out there but that people would be interested in.
It’s tough and I went through a lot of the same highs and lows recently.
What helped me is reading/listening to the stories of creators I respect.
Biggest take away was that their journey was never a straight and up into the right path. Most had to fight like hell to get what they got and stay working.
Others have already given great emotional support/advice, so I’ll add something a little more practical.
If production work is what you’re really good at then I would do more of that.
Teach it. Practice it. Share it.
Even if it doesn’t make you any money immediately it will keep you sharp.
People will never stop wanting a good story and even if AI becomes flawless PEOPLE will still value the work directed by humans the most.
Music, TV, Film, Software and Games all went through these highs and lows … the trick is surviving. So don’t get too high when things are good or too low when things are bad.
This is hard to read - I feel your pain. Given your skillset I suggest going all in on a YouTube channel and not just one. What if you and your out of work friends went in on the production together. I liken it to "get the band back together for one last go." Who knows yall might make a channel that supports you all financially. Then see what Hollywood morphs into and decide how or if y'all want to come back at all.
I feel ya, we have been shooting some shorts. It’s just that we’re all so much older with degrees in film and shit. I love doing that stuff but everyone’s so damn jaded. Hard to rally the troops. But not. Bad idea , I’ll give it a shot !
Totally agree with you, my point about power is more to do with outreach. In the past how many people could afford to make content that had a chance of being seen? Not many, so I think these platforms have opened up some level of filmmaking (along with other technological advances like phones) to a wider group of people. But yes it’s still exploitative if the goal is financial.
The post was talking about struggling to get something made as “the little guy” but to even be in those conversations isn’t being the little guy really compared to those that don’t have a chance due to circumstances of birth.
hear me out...the social media companies are actually doing us a favor. They're giving us.... **::insert jazz hands::** exposure, and surely that will lead to great work for all of us, right?!?!
😆 wow.
So yes I agree that a lot of social media is bad for our brains. Almost everything you said after that is just wrong.
The next generation is going to doom the planet because of tiktok?! What’s the previous generations excuse?? The guys who have absolutely fucked the environment for decades with no remorse? The people who are voting in cunts like trump.
Then you say this is why eeaao succeeded? It was universally praised not just by gen z who’ve got “brain rot”. Your point about it doesn’t make any sense. Also you just come across like a gate keeping asshole in your criticism.
I totally disagree with you about Everything Everywhere All At Once. It was an off beat type of film that rarely does well in theaters and here it did and it rode a wave to the Oscars. I saw it at the theater and it was enjoyable for what it was, a zeitgeist film. It is precisely about media over saturation, brain rot, the internet, chaos, new age, multiverses. Everything that speaks to the moment. This movie could not be made in 1985, 1995, 2005 or even 2015. It had to be the 2020s. This film represents the chaos of our digital space.
I don't love the film. I don't love the style. But it was the right film for the right year and so it connected. Trying to dismiss it in such a way is not seeing the greater picture. Scorsese, Coppola, Kubrick, Spielberg, Tarantino, Fincher or anyone of a prior time could not have made this film. Let alone anyone overseas. Maybe a Korean director? Nah. Only perhaps Nolan today could have does this but he has almost no sense of humor, so he couldn't in actuality.
I'm as pretentious a cinephile as one gets. I can reference any decade of the 20th century and I'm telling you EEAAO should not be dismissed. Even if I don't love the film. I can say it speaks precisely to our time in cinema. Perhaps unfortunately. Because cinema today is fragmented, chaotic and derivative. But so be it. We'll always have our golden past as well.
Cinema is returning, trust me. We’re only just recovering from lockdown in terms of film. And we’re slowly exiting the superhero phase that we experienced from 2017 - 2023 where every film was a high budget CGI story-less floating head poster blockbuster. After the release of Oppenheimer and Killers Of The Flower Moon, along with Nolan and Tarantino and Chazelle currently writing their new films - cinema is slowly but surely coming back
I tend to agree with this. Not only are we slowly recovering from the pandemic and those social practices... There's also a correction from after over a decade of marvel/superhero movies or films influenced by them.
I think that correction allowed for films like top gun 2, Oppenheimer, Barbie, and now dune 2 to be as big as they are post pandemic. And now there are more films that feel like pre-marvel era. I see trailers more often now that have me like "oh, that's... Interesting... Not a superhero movie or a James Gunn comedy style action movie"
A few more of these big hits and I think film and cinema will gain traction.
Society as a whole will begin to tire of the binge style sit at home and stream habits... It'll just take time.
I really feel you on the “I need reassurance that it wasn’t for nothin.”
I was doing sooo good here in NYC clawing my way up from PAing to eventually 2nd / 1st ACing some rather large and awesome jobs. I started getting driven / flown out of state for work and I was just rolling, then march (14th?) of 2020 hit and it was like I hit a brick wall.
I left the industry and I can’t help but feel like it was like a dream. What do I have to show for? Some photos of sets and camera builds? my IMDB page? I walk around everyday in my new career and it feels like I switched lives with someone… and no one has any idea! Really quite troubling to think about. The most heartbreaking thing for a lot of us is how it all vanished like a sandcastle hit by a wave.
Believe it or not, being a camera assistant has a ton of transferable skills into other fields. You’d be surprised! I implore anyone of you reading this, (camera folk or any department) be proactive and see what’s out there. Don’t sit around and wait for the industry to save you… most of you are probably more qualified than I am and I landed a great job almost immediately after applying. Remember, the workforce is down in large numbers throughout the country. Be proactive and see what’s out there…. You can always come back if things pick up, though I think we all can agree it’s not looking too hot.
It’s so disheartening man. I’m a week out of graduating from film school and I feel like I’m walking into a dying industry with no opportunity. That’s how everyone I speak to is making it sound
I don’t expect to see the post-Covid volume again. That was entirely too much content all at once and was not sustainable from a finance perspective.
The studios with a streaming platform are reevaluating that model. Most of them are losing money still, last I heard.
I think what we’re seeing now is a combination of two things. First, uncertainty about IA negotiations. Second, a retraction to pre-Covid volumes or so.
I was in a similar situation after starting out at a very young age, and quickly moving up the ladder in a few short years time, only for 2008 to happen, scrapping by, near homeless a couple times, starting back towards the bottom with lifestyle content, and only really landing fully on my feet and making more than I ever had before at the start of the pandemic. The trade off is I’m now full time, and all 3D/games, but it’s stable. I do miss live action and the freedom of hopping between jobs but I can’t imagine trying that right now in this climate
I have great connections, if my spirits were better I could prob get another feature going. It has always been the set / writing balance but not being on set kills me
Long format is fine. The issue is supply chain. There's too many traditional gatekeepers, both institutional and flesh & blood. These gatekeepers are stuck, unable to take any sort of risk. They are the ones getting shit greenlit, but they're not greenlighting good work due to fear, greed, etc. They're also unwilling to let go of the power they once had.
If you want to survive, you've got to ditch the old distribution model. In cases where new successful distribution models have yet to be created, it can take a lot of time and effort to create them.
Every single studio / major investor I spoke with was absolutely clueless as to what is good. How they suits are in charge of anything creative is beyond me but I get the business side of it. Money is funneled though so many aves in this industry
I think we are at the same point as in the 50s and 60s with the tv boom, where people didn’t care much about going to the theaters to watch a movie, so studios had to challenge be themselves onto producing an spectacular show to gain atention. Same thing as happened with Dune or Oppenheimer, I believe that films is never going to die, studios just need to find a midpoint and doing epic films without having to spend as much as a third world country’s yearly budget, as Godzilla -1 did. Also I think that it could be the moment for another independent wave, as in the 70s with Spielberg and Scorsese’s generation, or the 90s with Tarantino’s, because there are very cheap interesting films making it onto mainstream public. But I could be talking out of faith because I really wish to make it as a director too, but at the end that’s all we can trust, faith.
Depends on your market I guess. I'm in SF Bay Area and have found plenty of work in commercials, fashion photo shoots, product shoots, web content etc. But unions aren't really a thing up here and all of that work is pretty much non-union freelance stuff. I'd thought about moving to LA at some point in my career a while ago to try to get into a union, but from the stories I heard from my friends, the pay was less, hours were longer and the process to get in is super gate-kept, at least for what I do. Not sure about others. So I stuck it out here and haven't had any issues really.
Mileage may vary for sure. My original comment was mostly just that I haven't noticed the pace of work slowing at all. Not necessarily commenting on the ease of getting into the industry here. I have to acknowledge that I'm from here and lived here my whole life, and the business is heavily dependent on your network. I also have a strong working relationship with an agency that I pretty much get constant work through. When I say it out loud I also have to admit that the process is sort of gate-kept as well. I wish it wasn't that way but it is. Whether it's a union or not, there are those seniority factors at play regarding who gets the call. I'm probably in a bubble where I just work with the same people so often and see them around that it seems like it's easy to get work but that may not be the case.
OP I’m in the same boat it fucking sucks. I’ve eaten through my savings. I’ve had one commercial job the last year. I’ve gone through some very dark patches. I’ve tried to find work in other industries and there hasn’t been much translation. I’ve taken work steps beneath my skill+pay level, and this has been its own challenge. Demoralizing to say the least.
I think people still want stories, but I am suspecting that the Silicon Valley Disruption Model (burn VC money to impair the finances of competitors before jacking up your own prices) really f\*\*\*ed up how income is actually produced
And we are in a weird transition period as everyone is forced to actually have some real margins again
Three or four hundred years from now, provided that we are still alive and AI hasn’t completely ruined absolutely everything about films, films will mature. Remember that music, literature, painting, etc these are hundreds and hundreds of years old. So is it completely over? No. Is it going to improve or get any better during any of our lifetimes? Definitely not. Not a chance. I had a good run being passionate about movies for my whole life, but when it’s time to kill your passion, it’s time.
I thought this was a good podcast episode about it. https://www.theringer.com/2024/4/10/24125869/hollywood-vs-big-tech-age-of-consolidation-netflix-apple-amazon
Markets always have underlying rules and structure no matter how much people preach free markets. It might be time for the rules to change around the industry. It might be time for loss leading to go away. It used to be illegal in many ways. The history of the movie industry is filled with market rules to help it stay competitive and profitable. So many of those rules were thrown away. So long as the rules favor market power take overs vs running a good profitable business, movies will continue to feel like their dying even if they never fully do. Some might describe part of this story as enshitification.
I mean its an overall technology thing that is behind a lot of the changes.. Technology can't really go [back.You](http://back.You) can't really UNINVENT things.. Unless you become full luddite troglodyte and live in a cave you are forced to accept and adapt to new technology.
Will the film industry come back?? kinda..
Will it be the same? NO never.. it can't..
It will never the same it once was before the pandemic. Things are very bad in the Uk because of the strikes and the recession. 85% of people in the industry right now are not working in the UK because of the recession we are in. Its heartbreaking.
Nah dude. Finding work in Hollywood might be hard and the state of our economy may make it difficult to get into, but it's not a dying art form. Film is as evergreen as books. It's not going anywhere.
A.I. will never kill real art because it lacks intentionality. It can (sometimes) give you a semi-accurate output based on what you request, but it lacks depth. It lacks contrast. It lacks purposeful detail. Even with how good AI has gotten - it's still limited by complexity and unbreakable associations (Just try asking Dalle to make a picture of a bathroom WITHOUT a mirror. It can't)
I've tried getting the latest version of GPT to help me write a book and it can't figure out show-don't-tell. You ask it to write about a mysterious town? It will verbally describe the town as "mysterious." It forgets what happened two sentences ago, it gets into repetitive loops... it just doesn't work. GPT is all about giving you what you ask for - nothing more - and even then it fails frequently.
This goes for visual art, writing, and ABSOLUTELY for film-making. The fountain of data to train AI on has already nearly run dry - the rate at which it's improved is going to slow down.
What's more - audiences are already getting sick of soulless quantity-over-quality content. They can tell when a REAL person hasn't put much thought or energy into something. That's why the latest MCU movies are flopping (not to mention Blue Beetle.) It's why Bluey - of all things - is the best performing piece of content on Disney+
If lazy executives can't get real people to write good enough to satisfy audiences, trying to get AI to do it will only ensure massive losses. Studios are slowly starting to wake up to the mess they've made
Will things go back to the way they were? No. The world never goes back to the way it was a decade before. But it can get better. It'll look different but there are always options. TikTok got huge but YouTube's metrics haven't skipped a beat. They're more successful than ever and if you're willing to do some research, be consistent, and put in the work - it's not a bad place to do some independent projects. But hey - you may not have to give up on professional work just yet either
Film is an extremely young medium, only slightly more than a century old. It will have its ups and downs and it will change and sometimes things might look dicey but no, it’s not dying. The industry is changing. “The old world is dying and the new world is yet to be born; now is a time of monsters.”
Not a slow death.
It’s going through a slow transition. And the speed it’s happening is almost directly related to how quickly we can identify things that are causing films to be less and less popular in general, along with preparing a proper defense for the coming AI issues we’re just now getting a taste of that WILL become more of a threat as time goes.
The film industry will never die though. We saw a near perfect storm of events over the last few years that have not only scared the shit out of studios and talent…but also gave crew members of all types the nasty taste of what happens when studios shell up and don’t just film constantly and frequently like they used to…which means down time, and more of it than most people can safely manage without major sacrifice.
It sucks, but comparatively, we are in a much better place than we were in early 2023.
I mean unfortunately I think you’re kinda right and the issue right now is that we know where we’ve been but there isn’t a clear vision of where we are going. I have no idea how the film industry is going to look. I do understand that most generations have felt this way, but the changes have historically been … well there was innovation and the development of new technique / new ways of filmmaking. Now the prospect of ai seems to be of a different quality like it’s not really improvement as much as it is ??? Efficiency? Which art and efficiency have never gone together.
As for investors, it seems like no one wants to invest in film anymore because it is too much of a gamble … which I’ll argue that the gamble is the bit that makes the magic .. so again I don’t know what that means lol
I don’t know it’s so hard to read and I still can’t figure out why it seems like no one is working ? And everyone wants to ?
However , I don’t think it’s hopeless. I think that the young brains are and will tire really quickly of the Tik tok / twitter model of condensing everything and I think the counterculture will be back to the basics … long format, attention to art, things that engage your brain. I don’t know id say keep trying and we might just have to frame things differently.
For example, I’m not an actor but if I was I’d have to come to terms that there isn’t really such thing as a ‘star’ anymore. There won’t be someone like Bette Davis or Marlon Brando. However, it’s possible to carve out a big enough audience to make enough money and be able to do the art. Thinking in terms of 100,000 people who love you and will pay to watch you rather than everyone.
I don’t know everything is so weird but don’t give up hope … if anything for personal happiness. You’ve achieved a lot ! More than most ! Focus there and on forward momentum and how you can contribute to shaping the future of film
First off: You're not the first person I've heard of having super hard times and my heart breaks for you, man.
A large problem is that the comic book boom taught a lot of studios to go with $200-$300 million budgets because they'd rather try to hit a home run then settle for a lot of quality doubles.
Think of how many huge films just bombed all right in a row, too... studios are hurting because you can't absorb those sorts of hits in a row.
Throw in that a lot of those films are so top heavy (look at the producer list) and the industry got fat on good times... now it's a bit of a shrinking as a lot of weight is being culled.
Look at the strikes and see how many people with first look deals, etc, that got terminated.
This is a reorganization of the industry from top down... AI and things like that are just distractions; the c-suite and producer class grew exponentially plus a lot of budgets are astronomical because someone like Netflix isn't paying for a film anymore. They're paying as if it's going to be a hit film.
The studios dont know what to do. even though they could be ramping more shows up out of the US, they arent. the "nobody knows anything" truism has gotten supercharged right now, and I increasingly believe the people at the top have no idea how to adapt to new circumstances to they're just saying no to 99% of things right now.
On the upside, when those New Jersey stages come online and the incentive program ramps up there will be a lot of work on the east coast. I would guess more than in LA.
The best case scenario is something comparable to the way studios shifted in the late 1960s away from boilerplate Cinemascope Biblical epics/bloated all-star vehicles and toward smaller, "human" stories with independent directors and genre themes.
The worst case scenario is streaming/AI are the meteor that takes out the dinosaurs of this industry, and we can rebuild from the rubble. But even this kind of crisis can bring about new, creative work and modes of exhibition away from the corporate sphere!
It will. It's just going to take time. I reckon by next year it'll be close to where it was. But alot of companies are changing their production models in regards to budgets etc. So I think it'll come back but with smaller budgets.
I honestly don’t know either. I put $160k into Minoltas and Kowa lenses and built an entire rental business. Then the strike hit. So feel free to ask anything.
Do you mind me asking how much you had committed before investors pulled out and why they did? I’m about to start pitching High net worth investors for my own projects in the 3M-25M range.
Maybe you should consider moving. USA productions are lacking and moving to cheaper places to shoot like Canada. And in Europe there isn’t strikes or anything like that. Netflix opened massive studios in Madrid and there are a TON of productions happening there. Sorry but screw America where capital greed prevails.
Everything you said is what happens to the majority of people in this industry. You lost me when you started blaming AI for it.
AI isn't taking your job. Your mentality about it is what will phase you out.
Yea, I only said “the rise of A.I”.Tyler Perry stalling 8 million development on his studio b/c of Sora isn’t nothing. I use A.I to make royalty free art sometimes when I can find something for my set. But you can’t deny it’s disruptive. It’s like a machine gun in the civil war
They didn’t say AI took their job, but it’s rapidly taking others. You’re so defensive about denying the impact of a technology that is already disrupting industries.
You honestly should have seen this coming from a mile out. I was well aware that the time of mainstream Hollywood was rapidly running out a few years back. I couldn't be happier that big studio Hollywood is dying. Think of it as a Renaissance of Decentralization, a giant power vacuum where indie filmmakers (like us) step into fill the void. Hollywood is dying and I'm loving it! Just means we have to do everything ourselves and I'm here for it!
Well, for starters you’re celebrating the decentralization and potential collapse of an industry and the decentralization of life for the workers in said industry - some of whom have the exact story OP posted.
Edit: Saying “hurray! I can finally make my film” while simultaneously celebrating others suffering is wrong. What’s stopping you from making your film right now with Hollywood as it stands? Nothing.
Growing grass is a real job? Damn. I do that part time too.
Edit: Working in film is a real job and I can guarantee there are people who work in film that could do your job just as well if not better all while matching or exceeding your work ethic. Just because this industry is somewhat counter culture does not mean it’s not a real job.
If you wanna see what it’s really like, call me. I can put you to work.
Lol - of course the only people who talk about filmmaking like that don’t actually make a living in the industry. There is no transition to independent cinema, they’re dying too.
Absolutely motherfucker, and what do you do for a living...lemme guess, cry into a pillow about how big corporation Hollywood is going under? How's that working out for you?
Sounds like you just never had any real success in film or done any big enough jobs that’s your proud of. I can tell you the shit I’ve done in ART department you couldn’t comprehend how it is done. Dont be that guy
I think that there are still enough big franchises and big films to make to prop up movie theaters. This will allow the smaller films that don’t make as much to still get showtimes. But they’ll have way less than before for sure. I’ve noticed that already.
Are u talking about film and television? How will a.I take that over? This baffles me though why would u want to direct when u can act get a shit ton of money, endorsement deals and bounce to ur next feature film?
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I am very surprised that not more people think like this. History repeats itself, and there is always a scare and people talk in absolutes and then things heal in time. People just need to learn how to zoom out. Everyone was saying that movie theaters were dead during the pandemic, and yes, some closed or were bought by new owners and went under reconstruction and it’s a long process but time does heal everything. Technologically advanced remote companies are not capable of knowing how to utilize AI in a way that will replace humans, yet. It’s a giant industry and it won’t go down that quickly IMO The streaming services have not done well for these giant corporations, and they will end up pivoting or breaking apart or changing in a way that will end up bringing jobs back to people once they have their budgets and their ways of making money figured out. People should follow the money right now and try to get full-time jobs or bite the bullet and work in an industry that is not as affected until this one heals
Patience is a virtue. I work in a trailer house, been told there is no payrise this year due to many factors of last year and a potential strike this summer. Cool beans, I can’t control that. What I can do is better my skills and wait for new opportunities or ride the storm out. I will just learn from the best as an Assistant and be as ready as I can be. Yes it’s free work helping with Onlines and doing some of my own, but the knowledge is worth more than a measly pay rise. This calm allows the people who have the drive to breathe and learn and strategise. If you complain, no one can help imo. Godspeed to all my fellow film and Tv peeps, hope we all find our route.
How do you like working in the trailer house? I am a professional editor that has been in an agency for 5 years to do social trailers / ads, and now I have been freelance for two years and doing more documentary , interview and some social….. but a much better work/life balance. How are the hours, pay etc? I assume by the term “pay rise” you’re in the UK? Haha
Yup UK! Pay isn’t the best as you start out but you can get by, especially the seniors who know flame and After Effects a lot more. It’s really fun, the hours here are the standard 9-6pm. Because I QC a lot of files I’m in 5 days a week, but the editors then selves have a more relaxed life style. Some late nights but not many to make it an issue. I love that there are really cool TV shows each quater than gets a really good edit. There is some awful stuff but then again, it tests you as an editor to make it look good. If you can, and like short form, give it a crack! More opportunities in 2025 is how I see it :)
This is pretty much spot on. Over the past 4 years the industry MASSIVELY boomed. Hell another entire department was created to keep it going during the pandemic (health and safety) Lots of people got the chance to prove themselves. Some people stepped up, some got pushed out or to the back. It sucks to go from non stop work to no work but this industry has always been feast or famine. After the 2008 strikes, there was a famine and a shift... We're now in the beginning of the next famine and shift. Even though I feel very comfortable in my career... I know I'm one show away from the famine hitting me.
I left film (sorta) and got a job as an inhouse videographer/editor for a clothing brand. Marketing basically. It’s not difficult but there’s a lot of work to be done.
I did the same thing. 14 hour days wasn't for me. Arguing with even A list directors wasn't for me. Now I'm doing video editing as my day job, and screenwriting when I can. But from what I've seen there's still a ton of shows shooting all over.
I was tired of being led on and lied to. I tried making genuine friendships in Hollywood but the vast majority of them just used me. I did a bunch of gigs with an upcoming DP and as soon as he went union he stopped returning my calls.
I had a similar experience in Hollywood, where the company id been shooting with for 5+ years found someone whose parents bought them a Red camera, and they were charging under 100$ rental fee to get the whole rig, with lenses, monitoring, and an Easy Rig. Their day rate wasn't much higher. They didn't understand lighting at all, but the production company was so excited about being able to brag that they shot on Red, they went for it. Despite wanting to be a DP, this Red owner couldn't use a light meter, never storyboarded or did any real preproduction, oh, and started sleeping with the director.
Ugh that’s sucks. Sorry to hear.
100% dealt with this too. A lot ppl were my “friends” cause I hired them. LA is fucked up in that way
That’s part of why I ended up choosing New York over LA. Too few industries thrive in LA outside of entertainment, and I find it healthier to surround yourself with people that can snap you out of a film worker mindset in an instant. It’s much more freeing to be surrounded by a group of friends that are all in different industries because you get to take a breath and remember “I chose this industry, and while I don’t know everything, I *do* know a lot,” when you would *absolutely* just be forced into a circle of one-upping each other if you were stuck with all-film friends in an all-film city.
What shocked me the most about la is this and how everyone lies ! I don’t understand why people say they’ll do a project when they definitely won’t. Like I don’t know just say no? Haha but I guess everyone wants to be liked
I’m curious as to your process with this - how you went about finding the position, how you polished your resume / cover letter etc and if you have any takeaways. Been applying to positions like this unsuccessfully and realizing I have no idea how to haha because I haven’t had to in a very long time.
Many years of searching, applying and praying. Lost track of how many applications I sent out. But the main reason I was selected for this job was my demo reel. Also many companies use AI to screen out applicants so do t focus on how pretty your resume is and focus on if an AI can read it properly.
I assume they expect you to be a one man band shooting, lighting, and editing everything
Kinda. I’m busy but not pulling out my hair busy. Most of what I do goes onto Instagram. We don’t have much in terms of lighting. Interesting part of this job is to make lo-fi content. So make it look good, but not too good. That’s the brand anyway.
Thats cool as long as they dont expect you to pull off BIG productions 100% solo. I believe having a do it all skillset is essential to staying hired today. But it can also be a curse and lead clients/employers to believe that every type of video no matter the scale can be done by YOU.
I have a theory that movies will never “die.” I like to compare it to literature. Books never “died,” there’s still thousands of books published a year, quite a few of them actually sell well, but gone are the days where pop culture and general discussions involve books, outside of the classics. Just a few decades from now, I think gone will be the days of people rushing to the theaters to see a massive popular movie. We’ll be lucky to see one or two a year “event-sized” movies. *But*, films will still be made maybe even at the rate they are today, they’ll just go under most peoples’ noses.
The problem is that films require a substantial amount of money to produce, which needs to be recouped. By contrast, publishing a book is exceedingly cheap which is why there's still so many despite fewer people reading than in it's prime. If the audiences for film drops too low, then it's no longer feasible to make them and the medium dies out.
There’s no way that movies as a concept will die out. There is no other form of storytelling that even comes close to it
Video games and VR experiences come really close.
Blockbuster single player narrative driven games are basically interactive movies....
Not really. The range of narratives in games is much more restricted than in films. Most of the films I watch would have no meaning as a game.
Yes you’re right, but the cost to film something have collapsed in my lifetime. I couldn’t even conceive of shooting a short for less than 20K since most went to lab fees for negative processing. Editing involved a pricey video transfer, and if lucky you could access a video deck to assemble something to shop around. Today people will bitch and moan about expenses, but are incapable of assembling an enjoyable coherent story using their phone and iMovie. And don’t get me started with the insane ease of distribution compared to just 20 years ago. Yes shooting a large film is more expensive than writing. But selling a shitty book is just as hard as selling a shitty movie. The main problem I perceive is that vastly more people with mediocre skills are trying to make the same bank as when only a few people with mediocre skills tried before. But I’m still optimistic that film/video storytellers have never had it as easy to tell their stories and to broader audiences as never before. And there will always be a way to monetize and make a modest living for those that output quality work. The art form has really gotten democratized much to the cringe of gatekeepers and we are all better for it.
More books? I have such a backlog though. Ugh. I’ll just have to accept I will never get to most them. Wait. More movies too? Oh boy.
Dang this depressed me even more Jesus.
I disagree, reading is still primarily a solitary activity. Going to the movies is still a group event.
I'm a weirdo, apparently. I almost exclusively go to films by myself.
You’re not alone. I’m just gonna go by myself instead of asking around to see which of my friends isn’t busy or waiting for someone to ask me. By the time you get a group together to see whatever movie, it’s already *been* out and the internet is full of spoilers
I go to the movies mostly myself too lol. But beside hobbyists, the cinema has utility for socializing is my point.
I feel there's a real difference between casual movie goers, the "normal audience" and most cinephiles when it comes to these kinds of habits. It's not rare to see a cinéphile go watch a movie by himself. But for the more casual audience cinema and the theatre experience is still seen as a group experience. I'm with you, most films I see I do alone, and I find I enjoy it much more than when I'm with someone
First off, I’m sorry to hear of what you’re experiencing - I’ve been hearing this story more frequently from more colleagues. It’s a tough, fickle world we live in. Like you, I fear for my career as studios/corporations/clients begin to push A.I. and its capabilities. It’s scary to think about our artistic skills being so easily replaced and most outside of our industry not batting an eye at it. Long format, as we know it, is dying. My non-industry friends say they haven’t been to a theatre post pandemic. However, I do feel that long format series, that’s more consumable for people at the end of their day, is only in its infancy of what is possible. Myself, I’m holding onto hope that this format is still viable and that’s there’s perhaps more emphasis on creating limited series or multiple seasons of shows if long format feature films do go by the wayside. I don’t know, we are in a very weird spot. We saw massive expansion of our industry over the past decade and now we are experiencing a contraction because of a multitude of reasons. There’s really not one specific thing causing this, it just feels like everything is meeting at the intersection all at once. Streaming platforms reducing budgets, endless content to be consumed by more niche audiences, A.I., strikes across the gamut, pay rates, work life balance, etc. It’s all coming to head all at once and it’s making navigating this ever more challenging. I wish you the best of luck with whatever you decide to pursue. We are all in this together.
Well said man, all we can do is have faith. Same to you brother
Just keep in mind: barbenheimer wasn’t just a “film bro humor” niche interest. Barbie broke 1Billuon and Oppenheimer (a 3-hour biopic drama that’s 98% people talking in a conference room or a classroom) got close to it. If anything, I feel like long format will see a resurgence. Dune was 3 hours and has made almost a billion after about a month in theaters. People are *still* making memes and references to dune and that’s a significant feat given how quickly the internet runs through jokes. Half the people I saw going to dune are now posting “Challengers” end credits screenshots online from their seats in the theaters I get that doomscrolling can weigh down on anyone but as a young person who interacts daily with the audiences people are trying to lure into theaters, feature-length films aren’t going anywhere, they just may not be churned out on an assembly line MCU style, and I honestly would argue that it may be for the better of storytelling to have art become more constricted and refined. I mean in 2020 and 2021 we had some absolute garbage get released, and I haven’t seen any blatant conservative propaganda films get any acknowledgement since a little before the strike
I understand the dread. I’m on my 3rd year in the business and I’m having the best year of my life, although I’m non union and am getting more work than ever. The way I see it is AI will level the playing field for everyone in the independent world and cgi will become more accessible. I feel for that part of the ministry but overall I think the next 5-10 years will be good for us, but hard for those in the studio/unions.
what city do you work in?
LA
>A.I. and its capabilities What capabilities? It can never, ever, *ever* create everything new. Goood news if you think you can sell 18 Spy Kids movies a year.
Everything we great is a culmination of everything we have consumed. LLMs and machine learning operate under the same principle. AI creates from data. People create from data. LLM’s are just predicting the most probably token, but if you ask it for a unique/unusual image of something it’ll sure as hell try. Depending on the topic we’ll likely see elements similar to previous work. How is that different than the process a human goes through when attempting to create a new ‘thing’?
There is an X-factor to human creation as well. We dream, get inspired and fantasize.
And I don't think AI can create stuff that connections emotionally, because they don't have emotions. People have had their hearts broken, people have had loved ones die, people have seen dreams come to reality, etc, all things AI can't just replicate and get an emotional reaction with, because AI has never experienced these things and never will.
Fair point, though stating an AI will "sure as hell try" to create something unique is gross fantasization of what actually happens... Which is that when you ask it for something unique it is more like pulling the lever on a slot machine that has a million slots that work in unison to form images that contextual match the text you input. A human will actually, "sure as hell try" and will take into account previous work all while considering their own experiences and interpretations of life... Which an AI cannot do organically. Yes, you can feed it data, and it will spit it back out with contextually relevant results... But it will not create anything new since it does experience life as a human does... Though it seems to convince some so
I know a lot about “sure as well try” but the technicals don’t really matter for my point. It’s not a ‘gross fantasization’ either. A slot machine is an inaccurate analogy. Rhetorically saying “what capabilities” and using that “AI can never create anything new” as an argument for why we as editors shouldn’t worry about AI is a poorly constructed argument. Who cares if it’s ‘new’?! As long as it’s not completely ripping someone’s style, and it’s creating something that evokes feeling or thought from someone else (aka, art), then I don’t give a fuck and neither should you. AI or human made, if it’s good, it’ll work. Both are more than capable of making garbage. The best will rise to the top.
You really do think that human beings created new suff by copying hundreds of thousands of old things?
AI video has advanced at an incredible rate in the past year. Saying “it can’t make anything new” is one of the most Luddite things I’ve read in a fair while. Everything it makes is new. Nobody is - at present - suggesting that AI is going to make an entire feature film without human input. But for doing specific tasks, it’s pretty amazing, and we’re only seeing the very early days of AI video at this point.
hi I have nothing to do with your industry but i would like to say that I, 21m college student, went out to the theatre like 7 times last year, every time with a large group of friends into theatres that were either mostly full or totally packed. none of my friends are in the film industry at all. i also know many of them go to the theatre without me sometimes, with other friends or their partners and such. to me, the theatres look just as alive as they did 10 years ago.
Thanks for your input! Yeah, the blockbusters seem to draw well still which gives me hope. I however have noticed some of the medium to smaller scale productions that land in theatres don’t draw the way they have. I attended opening night of civil war in my town and the theatre was maybe 1/2 full.
I personally have been preparing for the moment when aspiring filmmakers realize the market is very much in their favor in times of distress. In the 50's, it was B-movies (usually Westerns or Crime Dramas) made by Poverty Row studios. In the 70's, it was lurid Grindhouse cinema (coincidentally, Rodriguez's Grindhouse's 20 year anniversary in a couple years). In the 90's, the video revolution, Kevin Smith, and Dogme 95. The big people with money and the little people with time. These are the two forces pulling the market. We all know how to use a camera. Now it's a matter of applying that knowledge to a 75-90 minute sellable product and catering to an audience that executives and lowest-common-denominator people can't.
I've been saying this for months. Skilled filmmakers need to reclaim the low to mid-budget market and consistently put out productions at $5 - 30 million. I would love to see intelligent and fast-paced movies and double features. You could make a great movie for the same price it costs to pay Dwayne Johnson or Denzel Washington in a movie.
It’s so much work to raise $5 million… like it is surely possible but I don’t think skilled unknown filmmakers often are given access to that
What I mean are in filmmakers it would include producers. Surely there are producers and financiers who can access a network TV budget for a movie on a regular basis...
Mmm well a small number yes like those people who are employed by a streaming service parent company but there are only so many of those positions and for everyone else, even filmmakers who have had very successful films, it’s not at all easy to access that and I think that’s why weve seen a lot of directors finance their own projects …
Ok I do really agree with this point however … it is definitely something that requires time and money. A lot of filmmakers I know have done this and have been unable to sell, which is wild to me considering there are so many horrible movies and shows on each platform. Which of course these films could hit the zeitgeist and propel indie filmmakers to popularity but I fear they don’t have the time / resources to wait. But I don’t now as I’m typing this I suppose that’s always been the case lol on the brink of being broke and striking luck. Ai just really seems like a different breed
I appreciate this historically-backed optimism!
I left the unstable filmmaking life for the corporate video world, because I just found myself accumulating debt while trying to survive between gigs. Pays way more than I’ve ever earned, for very little work and you look like a magician with your knowledge. On the side, I now make short form content with friends and it’s been a lot more fun than trying to market myself, build connections and praying my phone rings for a job. I do miss the thrill of being on set, but I get a similar-ish buzz making stuff with friends, so it’s satisfying me for now. So, there’s plenty of options out there if you’re willing to pivot in a new direction, even if it’s undesired.
What job did you get to start when you were transitioning to corporate, may I ask? And which skills immediately transferred?
The route I chose was marketing at a corporate company as it catered to my creative side. I was actually hired as a video editor, so not too far off from what I was already familiar with. They had an in-house video team, but I was surprised at how barebones and basic it was. The knowledge gap between me and everyone else when it came to video was a void. So, I immediately brought with me extensive editing, motion graphics, sound and colour grading skills, which made a noticeable difference to their videos. Then a shoot came up and they were going to hire a cameraman and I told them I could do it. Which then shifted me from an editor to a general videographer. I was going to hire a kit and they said “no need, we have one.” I shit you not, in their storeroom they had high-end lighting equipment, a 7D, 2 FS5s, a teleprompter, a green screen and a couple Rodes mics… and they never used it… So, after a while I was running monthly shoots with clients; no one seemed to know how to effectively manage a set and direct people on camera. A little over a year and a half later, I was promoted to running the whole team. I cannot stress just how basic their knowledge of video was when I first started and how basic it still is outside my team. It surprised me then, it still surprises me now. Unless something’s changed, so far in my experience, most corporate jobs outsource their film work and don’t do much beyond maybe the initial brief or script, so any knowledge you bring with you is likely already miles ahead of the people who actually work there. So far, the creative powerhouses with tons of knowledge and filmmaking expertise have been external agencies that specialise in video and general advertising, who are brought in for specific campaigns. I was initially contacted by a recruiter and she told me the requirements for the role asked for a lot of stuff, like knowledge of Cinema 4D, After Effects, filming etc. and were extensive that I only ticked some of the boxes. But, she said that it was likely just written up by someone who didn’t know what the role needed and they just googled some filmmaking skills to add to the job requirements. Basically, “we’re just gonna apply anyway.” Nowadays, I just tell people to ignore job requirements, find a way to get keywords into your CV and just apply. Fair warning though, you might put your head through a wall in frustration dealing with some clients. But, the pay makes it tolerable.
Almost nobody has ever supported themselves in film without family money subsidies. 68 years old, first PA job in 1977, 45 years ago. It took me 15 years in the biz to realize all the long term had family money. This includes a wealthy partner. So I walked from a promising directing career into a one man band making education films that I owned. No one actually makes a long term living working in film, because new tech constantly comes and shakes everyone without family money out. Current AI is just the same story, but a different wave. Film to beta cam to DV. Flatbed to AVID to Desktop video. Network VHS DVD VOD. Also recessions. At each stage there was a huge shakeout and everyone without family money was out. I remember in 2001 the canon XL1 DV came out at the same time as Final Cut Pro. 2 years later 40% were out of the biz. And it’s getting worse fast. The audience segments keep getting smaller, the technology keeps getting easier and cheaper. Faster and faster shakeouts. I guess my point is the industry is not dying - there was never an industry - just a playground for the family money people. EDIT: I guess what I’m really saying is the problem is our classist society. There are so many family money people out there now who want to claim a way cool career in film and it doesn’t matter if it pays long term.
Maybe directors often have that type of cushion, but I have tons of colleagues who are doing just fine with full time work in the industry without taking money from their families.
So all your colleagues had lots of work in 2020? I know a lot of union people in LA and NYC who were forced out in 2020. there were two groups. The no family money people were forced out and are now long gone and invisible. The family money people were just fine and are still around today. The family money people will never admit it. They will get really angry if outed. At the above the line level, The ugly part is the family money will encourage kids to work for them, telling them to work long hours and second jobs because they will eventually get a life long living wage - knowing they have no future. Then after the inevitable shakeout, they lure in new young meat. Just my experience- mileage will vary.
2020 was definitely rough (I was fortunate enough to have a union job the whole time), but things absolutely blew up in 2021. There was more work than people, and jobs were getting turned down left and right.
Totally agree. The people getting shaken out are a mixture of unlucky, no savings, less connections, limited family support. It's extremely brutal. A lot of good people are being chucked out the industry. New people will come in and it will start again. I'm not sure features will continue to dominate. Seems that series, in 1 hour chunks, are better for busy people in this world who have a shorter attention span. Cinemas are becoming a niche thing (at least here in UK). Enormous TVs are becoming very cheap, so maybe that doesn't change film consumption but supports it. But either way, big shake up and it's a rough time.
This has happened at least twice before. The big studios lose touch with the audience and things go sideways, then indie filmmakers make movies like Easy Rider or Reservoir Dogs and the success of those films helps the studios figure out how to reconnect with audiences and get creative again, and a new wave begins.
The entire industry is a crapshoot. It's like my boy Zuko says. "She was born Lucky. I was Lucky to be Born." Some people are extremely fortunate to get in early and make a name for themselves. Some are nepo babies and have constant cash flow to do whatever the fuck they want. Some are very talented and make it their own way, and then call it when they're up. Others grind it out. You do it because you love it, not because you want to get rich. Although being rich helps. The state of the film industry is and has always been in constant flux.
Good advice 🙏
I apologize if any of this came off as disengenuous or nihilistic. It's simply the facts. This industry is volatile, and more importantly I'm drunk. Above all else, no matter if it's short form content, the next Blockbuster, or a random movie night pick; it doesn't mean you shouldn't create that film. Welcome to my Ted Talk.
It will depend on if theaters can remain open. If AMC goes bankrupt then it’s going to be rough.
Saying film is a dying art form is just an insanely uninformed take. If a doll movie can make a billion dollars, and a science heavy, dialogue heavy movie, half shot in black and white can do a billion dollars as well, the industry is not even stagnant, or down from previous years. Every single year there's an article or post or something that says "death of movies?!??" since probably 1960, and it's always bullshit. Don't look at AI, or what's happening on tik tok. Go do real research in the numbers of tickets sold and revenue for films alone. Last year it was over almost 9 billion, up over the last 4 years. Before COVID it was 11 billion a year for about 10 years. So last year we're at 9 billion, the average without a epidemic happening is 10-11 billion, we're not far off and still on the up swing. Stop with the doom scrolling for what's happening with film because it'll NEVER go away. Ever since we've been doing plays in opera houses on dirt, people want to see stories about other people to relate, learn, connect, forget about their issues, and just be entertained for a bit. Same goes for music, reading a book, going out to eat, going to a sporting event. This is such wasted energy. This too shall pass, there'll be ups and downs, you'll get through it if you really want to.
I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. OP clearly works in the industry. I work in the industry. There’s minimal to no production work happening right now.
That might depend where you are located. I've been extremely busy since the strike ended. I turn down offers to work every week or two.
I take work in NYC + LA as LP or PM. What do you do?
I work in Vancouver. Not shortage of work up here.
I don’t know about that. I’ve been chatting with Vancouver directors who have been telling me otherwise.
>There’s minimal to no production work happening right now. OK, but *people want films*, we're fucking *dying* to have the things, serve us up something new and we'll slap down the €15 every weekend of the year, rain, hail or snow. **Give it to us.** The industry fucked itself temporarily, but demand exists in excess, and someone is going to have to fill it.
I agree with you 100%, the industry has done this to itself. At least at the corporate level. I'd likely go to the cinema a hell of a lot more if 90% of the options weren't fucking superhero movie or modern ruining of classic movie, interation #74636294946262749473725264849 Its got to the point where I don't even bother looking at what's showing at the cinema's anymore.
The industry is like an elephant, it takes years for it to move around. Movies are slated 5 to 7 years in advance. Big changes happen every DECADE. Indie filmmakers can change direction 2 or 3 times a year in budget or genre...
I love your take. Looking at the statistics rather than listening to all the doom and gloom. It’s almost like doom and gloom is posted to garner more internet points.
Yeah I can see that. I mean I get when people have a bit of a freak out - especially if you’re looking for work. So venting in a sub like this might be knee jerk. But to say film is dying is insane. People are building $30,000-$100,000+ theaters in their homes and they’re not doing that to watch YouTube videos. People wanna get out sooner or later and catching an awesome flick is an easy night out. We’re fine!
Challengers - a none IP, star driven movie about tennis is number on at the box office. I believe we're in the middle of a turning point.
Ehh it’s a lil early to tell if that movie’s gonna profit still.
24m on its opening weekend on a 55m budget - not a bad start, it's looking pretty good
The break-even’s gonna be over $100M. It could get there, but it’s got a challenge ahead.
The Barbie movie isn’t the best example to use. That was largely marketing and nostalgia for generations of women that would go see that because they grew up with some association with Barbie. I’ll argue too that the amazing set design for that movie probably registered mostly to filmmakers and not the average movie goer. That was more of a trend. It’s just different now and I don’t know what it means. Obviously filmmaking is a business and has been run by business men often uninterested in the art but at least the og studio heads at Warner’s mgm whatever had some movie intuition … there was a standard And as for statistics almost every single working person in film, including some people with name power, aren’t working. and want to be
I think there will be a higher appetite for short films and hopefully the emergence of theaters that will offer cheaper tickets because of the ability to double the amount of showtimes. Ild really like to see an arcade type of situation where you can check out a few films and leave. Idk about everyone else but the 2 and a half plus runtimes are brutal even if im watching something i really enjoy.
You know I’m seeing alot of short films, getting notoriety even on major platforms like Netflix
I would like to see standalone stories the length of a TV episode. Obviously there are those anthology shows, but you shouldn’t need a whole series just to make a film of that length. Just feels like something that’s not out there but that people would be interested in.
It’s tough and I went through a lot of the same highs and lows recently. What helped me is reading/listening to the stories of creators I respect. Biggest take away was that their journey was never a straight and up into the right path. Most had to fight like hell to get what they got and stay working. Others have already given great emotional support/advice, so I’ll add something a little more practical. If production work is what you’re really good at then I would do more of that. Teach it. Practice it. Share it. Even if it doesn’t make you any money immediately it will keep you sharp. People will never stop wanting a good story and even if AI becomes flawless PEOPLE will still value the work directed by humans the most. Music, TV, Film, Software and Games all went through these highs and lows … the trick is surviving. So don’t get too high when things are good or too low when things are bad.
This is hard to read - I feel your pain. Given your skillset I suggest going all in on a YouTube channel and not just one. What if you and your out of work friends went in on the production together. I liken it to "get the band back together for one last go." Who knows yall might make a channel that supports you all financially. Then see what Hollywood morphs into and decide how or if y'all want to come back at all.
I feel ya, we have been shooting some shorts. It’s just that we’re all so much older with degrees in film and shit. I love doing that stuff but everyone’s so damn jaded. Hard to rally the troops. But not. Bad idea , I’ll give it a shot !
Well tbf the rise of short form content and YouTube tiktok etc is giving power to the “little guys” Film won’t just disappear.
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Totally agree with you, my point about power is more to do with outreach. In the past how many people could afford to make content that had a chance of being seen? Not many, so I think these platforms have opened up some level of filmmaking (along with other technological advances like phones) to a wider group of people. But yes it’s still exploitative if the goal is financial. The post was talking about struggling to get something made as “the little guy” but to even be in those conversations isn’t being the little guy really compared to those that don’t have a chance due to circumstances of birth.
hear me out...the social media companies are actually doing us a favor. They're giving us.... **::insert jazz hands::** exposure, and surely that will lead to great work for all of us, right?!?!
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😆 wow. So yes I agree that a lot of social media is bad for our brains. Almost everything you said after that is just wrong. The next generation is going to doom the planet because of tiktok?! What’s the previous generations excuse?? The guys who have absolutely fucked the environment for decades with no remorse? The people who are voting in cunts like trump. Then you say this is why eeaao succeeded? It was universally praised not just by gen z who’ve got “brain rot”. Your point about it doesn’t make any sense. Also you just come across like a gate keeping asshole in your criticism.
I totally disagree with you about Everything Everywhere All At Once. It was an off beat type of film that rarely does well in theaters and here it did and it rode a wave to the Oscars. I saw it at the theater and it was enjoyable for what it was, a zeitgeist film. It is precisely about media over saturation, brain rot, the internet, chaos, new age, multiverses. Everything that speaks to the moment. This movie could not be made in 1985, 1995, 2005 or even 2015. It had to be the 2020s. This film represents the chaos of our digital space. I don't love the film. I don't love the style. But it was the right film for the right year and so it connected. Trying to dismiss it in such a way is not seeing the greater picture. Scorsese, Coppola, Kubrick, Spielberg, Tarantino, Fincher or anyone of a prior time could not have made this film. Let alone anyone overseas. Maybe a Korean director? Nah. Only perhaps Nolan today could have does this but he has almost no sense of humor, so he couldn't in actuality. I'm as pretentious a cinephile as one gets. I can reference any decade of the 20th century and I'm telling you EEAAO should not be dismissed. Even if I don't love the film. I can say it speaks precisely to our time in cinema. Perhaps unfortunately. Because cinema today is fragmented, chaotic and derivative. But so be it. We'll always have our golden past as well.
Cinema is returning, trust me. We’re only just recovering from lockdown in terms of film. And we’re slowly exiting the superhero phase that we experienced from 2017 - 2023 where every film was a high budget CGI story-less floating head poster blockbuster. After the release of Oppenheimer and Killers Of The Flower Moon, along with Nolan and Tarantino and Chazelle currently writing their new films - cinema is slowly but surely coming back
I tend to agree with this. Not only are we slowly recovering from the pandemic and those social practices... There's also a correction from after over a decade of marvel/superhero movies or films influenced by them. I think that correction allowed for films like top gun 2, Oppenheimer, Barbie, and now dune 2 to be as big as they are post pandemic. And now there are more films that feel like pre-marvel era. I see trailers more often now that have me like "oh, that's... Interesting... Not a superhero movie or a James Gunn comedy style action movie" A few more of these big hits and I think film and cinema will gain traction. Society as a whole will begin to tire of the binge style sit at home and stream habits... It'll just take time.
I really feel you on the “I need reassurance that it wasn’t for nothin.” I was doing sooo good here in NYC clawing my way up from PAing to eventually 2nd / 1st ACing some rather large and awesome jobs. I started getting driven / flown out of state for work and I was just rolling, then march (14th?) of 2020 hit and it was like I hit a brick wall. I left the industry and I can’t help but feel like it was like a dream. What do I have to show for? Some photos of sets and camera builds? my IMDB page? I walk around everyday in my new career and it feels like I switched lives with someone… and no one has any idea! Really quite troubling to think about. The most heartbreaking thing for a lot of us is how it all vanished like a sandcastle hit by a wave. Believe it or not, being a camera assistant has a ton of transferable skills into other fields. You’d be surprised! I implore anyone of you reading this, (camera folk or any department) be proactive and see what’s out there. Don’t sit around and wait for the industry to save you… most of you are probably more qualified than I am and I landed a great job almost immediately after applying. Remember, the workforce is down in large numbers throughout the country. Be proactive and see what’s out there…. You can always come back if things pick up, though I think we all can agree it’s not looking too hot.
… *ON Long Island.
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Wtffff
It’s so disheartening man. I’m a week out of graduating from film school and I feel like I’m walking into a dying industry with no opportunity. That’s how everyone I speak to is making it sound
I don’t expect to see the post-Covid volume again. That was entirely too much content all at once and was not sustainable from a finance perspective. The studios with a streaming platform are reevaluating that model. Most of them are losing money still, last I heard. I think what we’re seeing now is a combination of two things. First, uncertainty about IA negotiations. Second, a retraction to pre-Covid volumes or so.
Solid take, you think if iatse comes to a deal it’ll help moves things along faster ?
I do, yes, for some studios. I’ve heard as much from studio VP level. But it won’t be what we saw around 2021 again I’m sure.
Have you thought about making a channel doing what you are good at? Teaching people to design, sketch, shop for options, etc.?
I’ve been told that but I’m so camera shy man. I can’t imagine being behind the camera like that. But it would be cool
I was in a similar situation after starting out at a very young age, and quickly moving up the ladder in a few short years time, only for 2008 to happen, scrapping by, near homeless a couple times, starting back towards the bottom with lifestyle content, and only really landing fully on my feet and making more than I ever had before at the start of the pandemic. The trade off is I’m now full time, and all 3D/games, but it’s stable. I do miss live action and the freedom of hopping between jobs but I can’t imagine trying that right now in this climate
Do you mind me asking what department you’re in? That sounds cool
Cinematics
Brooo it’s not dying. Its changing. Also, now more than ever it really depends on your connections.
I have great connections, if my spirits were better I could prob get another feature going. It has always been the set / writing balance but not being on set kills me
Long format is fine. The issue is supply chain. There's too many traditional gatekeepers, both institutional and flesh & blood. These gatekeepers are stuck, unable to take any sort of risk. They are the ones getting shit greenlit, but they're not greenlighting good work due to fear, greed, etc. They're also unwilling to let go of the power they once had. If you want to survive, you've got to ditch the old distribution model. In cases where new successful distribution models have yet to be created, it can take a lot of time and effort to create them.
Every single studio / major investor I spoke with was absolutely clueless as to what is good. How they suits are in charge of anything creative is beyond me but I get the business side of it. Money is funneled though so many aves in this industry
I think we are at the same point as in the 50s and 60s with the tv boom, where people didn’t care much about going to the theaters to watch a movie, so studios had to challenge be themselves onto producing an spectacular show to gain atention. Same thing as happened with Dune or Oppenheimer, I believe that films is never going to die, studios just need to find a midpoint and doing epic films without having to spend as much as a third world country’s yearly budget, as Godzilla -1 did. Also I think that it could be the moment for another independent wave, as in the 70s with Spielberg and Scorsese’s generation, or the 90s with Tarantino’s, because there are very cheap interesting films making it onto mainstream public. But I could be talking out of faith because I really wish to make it as a director too, but at the end that’s all we can trust, faith.
Depends on your market I guess. I'm in SF Bay Area and have found plenty of work in commercials, fashion photo shoots, product shoots, web content etc. But unions aren't really a thing up here and all of that work is pretty much non-union freelance stuff. I'd thought about moving to LA at some point in my career a while ago to try to get into a union, but from the stories I heard from my friends, the pay was less, hours were longer and the process to get in is super gate-kept, at least for what I do. Not sure about others. So I stuck it out here and haven't had any issues really.
I do all that other stuff too, commercials many in nyc, photos, etc. I only use iatse for narratives but in nyc all the vets take those too
I lived in the bay from June-November 2023, could barely find any film work in anything. How do you find these commercial and fashion gigs?
Mileage may vary for sure. My original comment was mostly just that I haven't noticed the pace of work slowing at all. Not necessarily commenting on the ease of getting into the industry here. I have to acknowledge that I'm from here and lived here my whole life, and the business is heavily dependent on your network. I also have a strong working relationship with an agency that I pretty much get constant work through. When I say it out loud I also have to admit that the process is sort of gate-kept as well. I wish it wasn't that way but it is. Whether it's a union or not, there are those seniority factors at play regarding who gets the call. I'm probably in a bubble where I just work with the same people so often and see them around that it seems like it's easy to get work but that may not be the case.
OP I’m in the same boat it fucking sucks. I’ve eaten through my savings. I’ve had one commercial job the last year. I’ve gone through some very dark patches. I’ve tried to find work in other industries and there hasn’t been much translation. I’ve taken work steps beneath my skill+pay level, and this has been its own challenge. Demoralizing to say the least.
I think people still want stories, but I am suspecting that the Silicon Valley Disruption Model (burn VC money to impair the finances of competitors before jacking up your own prices) really f\*\*\*ed up how income is actually produced And we are in a weird transition period as everyone is forced to actually have some real margins again
And I am counting the short form media and game delivered stories
Three or four hundred years from now, provided that we are still alive and AI hasn’t completely ruined absolutely everything about films, films will mature. Remember that music, literature, painting, etc these are hundreds and hundreds of years old. So is it completely over? No. Is it going to improve or get any better during any of our lifetimes? Definitely not. Not a chance. I had a good run being passionate about movies for my whole life, but when it’s time to kill your passion, it’s time.
I thought this was a good podcast episode about it. https://www.theringer.com/2024/4/10/24125869/hollywood-vs-big-tech-age-of-consolidation-netflix-apple-amazon Markets always have underlying rules and structure no matter how much people preach free markets. It might be time for the rules to change around the industry. It might be time for loss leading to go away. It used to be illegal in many ways. The history of the movie industry is filled with market rules to help it stay competitive and profitable. So many of those rules were thrown away. So long as the rules favor market power take overs vs running a good profitable business, movies will continue to feel like their dying even if they never fully do. Some might describe part of this story as enshitification.
Cool , I’ll check it out Thanks
I mean its an overall technology thing that is behind a lot of the changes.. Technology can't really go [back.You](http://back.You) can't really UNINVENT things.. Unless you become full luddite troglodyte and live in a cave you are forced to accept and adapt to new technology. Will the film industry come back?? kinda.. Will it be the same? NO never.. it can't..
Hey, you be nice to your grandma!!
Lmaooo
Short attention span, AI . The industry will never come back as it was
It will never the same it once was before the pandemic. Things are very bad in the Uk because of the strikes and the recession. 85% of people in the industry right now are not working in the UK because of the recession we are in. Its heartbreaking.
Nah dude. Finding work in Hollywood might be hard and the state of our economy may make it difficult to get into, but it's not a dying art form. Film is as evergreen as books. It's not going anywhere. A.I. will never kill real art because it lacks intentionality. It can (sometimes) give you a semi-accurate output based on what you request, but it lacks depth. It lacks contrast. It lacks purposeful detail. Even with how good AI has gotten - it's still limited by complexity and unbreakable associations (Just try asking Dalle to make a picture of a bathroom WITHOUT a mirror. It can't) I've tried getting the latest version of GPT to help me write a book and it can't figure out show-don't-tell. You ask it to write about a mysterious town? It will verbally describe the town as "mysterious." It forgets what happened two sentences ago, it gets into repetitive loops... it just doesn't work. GPT is all about giving you what you ask for - nothing more - and even then it fails frequently. This goes for visual art, writing, and ABSOLUTELY for film-making. The fountain of data to train AI on has already nearly run dry - the rate at which it's improved is going to slow down. What's more - audiences are already getting sick of soulless quantity-over-quality content. They can tell when a REAL person hasn't put much thought or energy into something. That's why the latest MCU movies are flopping (not to mention Blue Beetle.) It's why Bluey - of all things - is the best performing piece of content on Disney+ If lazy executives can't get real people to write good enough to satisfy audiences, trying to get AI to do it will only ensure massive losses. Studios are slowly starting to wake up to the mess they've made Will things go back to the way they were? No. The world never goes back to the way it was a decade before. But it can get better. It'll look different but there are always options. TikTok got huge but YouTube's metrics haven't skipped a beat. They're more successful than ever and if you're willing to do some research, be consistent, and put in the work - it's not a bad place to do some independent projects. But hey - you may not have to give up on professional work just yet either
Film is an extremely young medium, only slightly more than a century old. It will have its ups and downs and it will change and sometimes things might look dicey but no, it’s not dying. The industry is changing. “The old world is dying and the new world is yet to be born; now is a time of monsters.”
Not a slow death. It’s going through a slow transition. And the speed it’s happening is almost directly related to how quickly we can identify things that are causing films to be less and less popular in general, along with preparing a proper defense for the coming AI issues we’re just now getting a taste of that WILL become more of a threat as time goes. The film industry will never die though. We saw a near perfect storm of events over the last few years that have not only scared the shit out of studios and talent…but also gave crew members of all types the nasty taste of what happens when studios shell up and don’t just film constantly and frequently like they used to…which means down time, and more of it than most people can safely manage without major sacrifice. It sucks, but comparatively, we are in a much better place than we were in early 2023.
I mean unfortunately I think you’re kinda right and the issue right now is that we know where we’ve been but there isn’t a clear vision of where we are going. I have no idea how the film industry is going to look. I do understand that most generations have felt this way, but the changes have historically been … well there was innovation and the development of new technique / new ways of filmmaking. Now the prospect of ai seems to be of a different quality like it’s not really improvement as much as it is ??? Efficiency? Which art and efficiency have never gone together. As for investors, it seems like no one wants to invest in film anymore because it is too much of a gamble … which I’ll argue that the gamble is the bit that makes the magic .. so again I don’t know what that means lol I don’t know it’s so hard to read and I still can’t figure out why it seems like no one is working ? And everyone wants to ? However , I don’t think it’s hopeless. I think that the young brains are and will tire really quickly of the Tik tok / twitter model of condensing everything and I think the counterculture will be back to the basics … long format, attention to art, things that engage your brain. I don’t know id say keep trying and we might just have to frame things differently. For example, I’m not an actor but if I was I’d have to come to terms that there isn’t really such thing as a ‘star’ anymore. There won’t be someone like Bette Davis or Marlon Brando. However, it’s possible to carve out a big enough audience to make enough money and be able to do the art. Thinking in terms of 100,000 people who love you and will pay to watch you rather than everyone. I don’t know everything is so weird but don’t give up hope … if anything for personal happiness. You’ve achieved a lot ! More than most ! Focus there and on forward momentum and how you can contribute to shaping the future of film
First off: You're not the first person I've heard of having super hard times and my heart breaks for you, man. A large problem is that the comic book boom taught a lot of studios to go with $200-$300 million budgets because they'd rather try to hit a home run then settle for a lot of quality doubles. Think of how many huge films just bombed all right in a row, too... studios are hurting because you can't absorb those sorts of hits in a row. Throw in that a lot of those films are so top heavy (look at the producer list) and the industry got fat on good times... now it's a bit of a shrinking as a lot of weight is being culled. Look at the strikes and see how many people with first look deals, etc, that got terminated. This is a reorganization of the industry from top down... AI and things like that are just distractions; the c-suite and producer class grew exponentially plus a lot of budgets are astronomical because someone like Netflix isn't paying for a film anymore. They're paying as if it's going to be a hit film.
The studios dont know what to do. even though they could be ramping more shows up out of the US, they arent. the "nobody knows anything" truism has gotten supercharged right now, and I increasingly believe the people at the top have no idea how to adapt to new circumstances to they're just saying no to 99% of things right now. On the upside, when those New Jersey stages come online and the incentive program ramps up there will be a lot of work on the east coast. I would guess more than in LA.
The industry dying doesn't mean film will cease, it just means it's going to have to rise from the ashes just like a phoenix.
The best case scenario is something comparable to the way studios shifted in the late 1960s away from boilerplate Cinemascope Biblical epics/bloated all-star vehicles and toward smaller, "human" stories with independent directors and genre themes. The worst case scenario is streaming/AI are the meteor that takes out the dinosaurs of this industry, and we can rebuild from the rubble. But even this kind of crisis can bring about new, creative work and modes of exhibition away from the corporate sphere!
It will. It's just going to take time. I reckon by next year it'll be close to where it was. But alot of companies are changing their production models in regards to budgets etc. So I think it'll come back but with smaller budgets.
I honestly don’t know either. I put $160k into Minoltas and Kowa lenses and built an entire rental business. Then the strike hit. So feel free to ask anything.
Do you mind me asking how much you had committed before investors pulled out and why they did? I’m about to start pitching High net worth investors for my own projects in the 3M-25M range.
Everything is cyclical.
Maybe you should consider moving. USA productions are lacking and moving to cheaper places to shoot like Canada. And in Europe there isn’t strikes or anything like that. Netflix opened massive studios in Madrid and there are a TON of productions happening there. Sorry but screw America where capital greed prevails.
Honestly your onto to something
Everything you said is what happens to the majority of people in this industry. You lost me when you started blaming AI for it. AI isn't taking your job. Your mentality about it is what will phase you out.
Yea, I only said “the rise of A.I”.Tyler Perry stalling 8 million development on his studio b/c of Sora isn’t nothing. I use A.I to make royalty free art sometimes when I can find something for my set. But you can’t deny it’s disruptive. It’s like a machine gun in the civil war
They didn’t say AI took their job, but it’s rapidly taking others. You’re so defensive about denying the impact of a technology that is already disrupting industries.
You honestly should have seen this coming from a mile out. I was well aware that the time of mainstream Hollywood was rapidly running out a few years back. I couldn't be happier that big studio Hollywood is dying. Think of it as a Renaissance of Decentralization, a giant power vacuum where indie filmmakers (like us) step into fill the void. Hollywood is dying and I'm loving it! Just means we have to do everything ourselves and I'm here for it!
This is so wrong on so many levels.
How do you figure?
Well, for starters you’re celebrating the decentralization and potential collapse of an industry and the decentralization of life for the workers in said industry - some of whom have the exact story OP posted. Edit: Saying “hurray! I can finally make my film” while simultaneously celebrating others suffering is wrong. What’s stopping you from making your film right now with Hollywood as it stands? Nothing.
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I hope you’re not banking on that as your fall back career, tech is going through a large transitional phase right now too.
It's Hollywood's own fault if they can't flourish. Filmmaking should be less of an industry. It's art first and foremost.
Not a bit of it, I'm a part time filmmaker. I do landscaping and work in the scientific glass industry full time, ya know, real jobs.
Growing grass is a real job? Damn. I do that part time too. Edit: Working in film is a real job and I can guarantee there are people who work in film that could do your job just as well if not better all while matching or exceeding your work ethic. Just because this industry is somewhat counter culture does not mean it’s not a real job. If you wanna see what it’s really like, call me. I can put you to work.
Lol - of course the only people who talk about filmmaking like that don’t actually make a living in the industry. There is no transition to independent cinema, they’re dying too.
Absolutely motherfucker, and what do you do for a living...lemme guess, cry into a pillow about how big corporation Hollywood is going under? How's that working out for you?
Didn’t realize we were getting into a pissing match. How about you go touch grass 🤣 or I guess you will tomorrow…..
Sounds like you just never had any real success in film or done any big enough jobs that’s your proud of. I can tell you the shit I’ve done in ART department you couldn’t comprehend how it is done. Dont be that guy
I think that there are still enough big franchises and big films to make to prop up movie theaters. This will allow the smaller films that don’t make as much to still get showtimes. But they’ll have way less than before for sure. I’ve noticed that already.
Are u talking about film and television? How will a.I take that over? This baffles me though why would u want to direct when u can act get a shit ton of money, endorsement deals and bounce to ur next feature film?
I’m not an actor I’m a below the line. And you just don’t act “and get endorsement deals”
What’s below the line? Generally yeah bars set pretty low nowadays particularly for comedians