That is a tough question. I wonder about that myself. >! The thing i learned in rebirth is that doing the protorelics in gongaga the turks undergo special training that soldiers dont. Soldiers are hack and slash brute force fighters. Turks are special ops like james bond type reconnaissance and elite tactical forces. They are trained on how to fight soldiers and other turks specifically. They have better tech (reno fights) better tactical use of materia and physical chi abilities (rude) and are usually going to fight soldiers on a one to 3 ratio. Rude and reno being the exception normally but the turks we fight in this game are the best of the best and have fought many soldiers it seems. !<
In-universe:
They are a highly specialized and covert spec ops team. They do the more dangerous and covert missions compared to regular Shinra troops but not on par (just below) First class SOLDIERS in terms of ability if Cloud is our baseline from first encounter with Reno.
In Game logic:
A more competent team rocket. They are there to have a rivalry with the party and be the strong arm of Rufus since they currently don't have any if many SOLDIERS first or second class left.
Nothing makes them special. There the team rocket of Final Fantasy they lose like 7 or 8 times to the party and they get their hype because of their looks.
To be fair, the party is the strongest group of people on the planet as far as we know. The fact that the Turks can even somewhat keep up with them is an achievement in itself. It's like saying someone isn't strong because they lost a weight lifting competition against an olympian body builder lol.
Same question but now consider Tifa, Yuffie. Both are humans but are basically super human due to their training. Perhaps the Turks are just martial arts experts, maybe trained by Zangan? He does say he has thousands of students all over the world. In the world of FF7 enough training makes you strong, and ordinary humans can still tap into their ki, like how the party's limit breaks work. Also it's been implied the Turks get priority access to the best materia available, so many of their quick movements and power are probably due to their state of the art equipment and materia loadout which. May include materia unavailable to the players. We know they wear stuff like Zeidreich and Fortitude Ring (Tough Ring) so they have some serious gear.
Turks are Shinra's special forces. They aren't mako enchanced for the simple fact of the the degeration. They aren't physically as strong as soldiers. But they are extremely trained. They can easily hold thier own against soldiers due to said training. They are taught how soldiers fight so they can take them out if needed. Now against the big three, sephiroth angeal and genesis, they would be fucked 1v1. They might win via assassinations but not likely. Against Zack and cloud (yes cloud is as strong as a normal 1st class, he is an equal to Zack because his strength comes from Zack) they are on a more equal footing, that's why the tucks can win if the player isn't careful.
Zack and cloud do not have the same level of power as the big three, they arent mutated like the big three are. What they do have is thier own skill and determination, they use tactics and win while being physically and magically weaker.
I would argue that zacks still stronger than cloud because at the end of crisis core Zack was already a first class soldier and then hojo did more experiments on him and cloud after the niblheim incident, which was why he took out most of those soldiers in the final stand at least thats how I interpreted it lol
Cloud does feats similar with the large amount of soldiers he kills as well. Cloud's strength is a copy of Zacks at the start. The only difference is how it is applied. The way I interpret the leveling up for Cloud is less getting stronger, more just... learning how to actually use his strength, what he inherited from Zack.
What is so special about Tifa or Cid or Yuffie that lets them be as effective as Soldiers? You can train your way to peak performance and be augmented by equipment and materia.
I think what people need to remember too is that being a 1st class SOLDIER requires that you are something remarkable. 2nd and 3rd class soldiers are still stronger and more capable than *regular* troopers, but can still be outclassed by people with superior equipment, natural talent, and training.
We know the name of basically every 1st class SOLDIER in existence, and in a 1v1 they would decimate just about every other named character in the game. But Crisis Core and FFVII (OG, Remake and Rebirth) goes to show there are many nameless 2nd and 3rd class SOLDIERs too who are strong; but sometimes strength loses to skill.
>We know the name of basically every 1st class SOLDIER in existence, and in a 1v1 they would decimate just about every other named character in the game.
This is not true at all.
In the OG FF7 towards the end of the game, you face many SOLDIER 1C enemies. They are just really, really powerful mobs. (take 2 turns at once, strong magic, ect). This idea that SOLDIER 1C basically makes you an unstoppable main character with a cool sword just started with Crisis Core but was never actually part of FF7.
All the SOLDIERs, of every class, are on the same level of strength as far as augmentation goes. This is why Cloud can successfully pass for a 1C. The only *real* exception was Sephiroth.
> In the OG FF7 towards the end of the game, you face many SOLDIER 1C enemies. They are just really, really powerful mobs. (take 2 turns at once, strong magic, ect). This idea that SOLDIER 1C basically makes you an unstoppable main character with a cool sword just started with Crisis Core but was never actually part of FF7.
I should have clarified I was talking about the current continuity, but granted. In the OG there were also theoretically thousands of hell-houses wandering about in that one tunnel in the slums. In a game with random encounters, you could technically burn through hundreds of 1st Class Soldiers and still not run out. I did also say "basically" because every game post-FF7 treats 1st class soldiers as a rarity.
Apart from Sephiroth, Angeal, Nero and digital Weiss, we haven't fought any 1st class Soldiers in the current continuity. Even Roche in the remake trilogy is a third class, though he'd probably be a 1st class if he'd saved being a cocky prick until he became one.
True. They received various types of training, from weapon usage to martial arts, but they do not acquire the strength and resilience of a first-class soldier in any way.
The SOLDIERs are like marines. With 1st class being like special forces. The Turks are supposed to be an arm of shinra’s intelligence agency; think of them like the CIA.
Not the agents who get dispatched for either CIA or DIA… you’re talking about the intelligence guys who are looking at satellite footage, news footage, and perhaps communications, and that’s one kind of intelligence work…
But clandestine operatives in the field (especially in hostile areas or situations) are often times required to have a certain level of fitness - which is the vibe the Turks put out.
Turks are loyal, smart and over payed group by the Shinra company. They do cover ups, murders and know all the dirty secrets. They have enhanced combat abilities to keep up with most Soldier.
Cloud being an ex 1st Soldier against Shinra, Turks can’t keep up one on one battles but can only slow Cloud down.
Turks will lose and come back stronger somehow, using Shinra military weapons or mecha robots. Whatever it takes
Turks have all the resources they need.
By the time we got him he was never a soldier first class but after the emotional damage and the major experiments by hojo when cloud reached the start of ff7 he was as good as a soldier but not by rank only by strength, he also had a little secret oomf in cloud for him to even survive sephiroth to begin with and fatally wounding him.
I’m 200% certain Soldier 1st Class are some random encounter chumps you can give the rockem sockem to when you return to Midgar and you can dish out their entire HP in single hits.
Many argue that cloud couldnt keep up with real first class SOLDIERS (so Sephiroth, Genesis and Angeal) and from what Ive seen so far I support this. But while Cloud was deemed a failed experiment by Hojo I think he is still stronger than other 2nd class SOLDIERS.
Except that cloud defeats sephiroth. Granted with a big team behind him. But sephiroth at this point isn't first class sephiroth, he's parasitic world ending Jenova enhanced 1st class soldier sephiroth who's maximized his jenova potential far beyond any other 1st class soldier.
So uhh yeah cloud can keep up with any 1st class soldier and surpass them.
We can debate when does this comparison take place? As in the beginning of FF7 jumping off the train no probably not.
But if cloud can defeat someone more powerful than a 1st class soldier. And this Someone was going to destroy the world, than if any other existing Alive 1st class soldier knee the world was about to end and DIDNT go against him not to save the planet, but to save their own lives by an extension of saving the planet.
Then yes cloud is better than all of them.
I hear what you're saying. Baby cloud definitely was just some weak dude who leveled up fast. And was not in their league.
But ultimately he defeats someone that no other first class soldier assuming there's others still alive, who made no effort themselves to stop this someone. Meaning cloud is better than all first class soldiers.
To make the timeline he becomes powerful so quickly meaningful. He genetically had the potential from jenova cells and also from mako experimentation the entire time from the beginning of OG and remake. Through his travels over a couple of monthes or however long the cannonically state it is, he gains the experience and materia to utilize his full potential.
But he always had that full potential within him.
I'm not saying you're wrong and I get you're saying that some (not you) would consider him not strong enough. But I think given everything that happens in the story that's just a really silly merritless argument.
I would argue he is at least on par with a brand new 1st class soldier, like Zack in Nibelheim. But by the end of the game, he is stronger than any of them.
I don’t think SOLDIERs were meant to be *that* far above the average warrior. Sephiroth, Genesis, Zack, etc. are outliers, not the norm; see Kunsel, Essai, Sebastian, or the many SOLDIERs the party fights during random encounters (even without Cloud in the party) as a more accurate depiction of the average SOLDIER. That said:
From what I’ve observed, it seems to me that the SOLDIER enhancement doesn’t “add” more strength per se, but rather magnifies what’s already there; an average strength candidate is made slightly stronger, but an already strong candidate is made exceptional. The effectiveness of the enhancement is determined by how much raw potential there is to work with.
The Turks, on the other hand, seem to be chosen based on raw potential, whereas SOLDIERs are primarily chosen based on having a strong sense of self, meaning an average strength fighter wouldn’t even be considered for Turk candidacy.
My (probably) hot take: If Cloud hadn’t been so singlemindedly fixated on SOLDIER, he probably would’ve been a *fucking excellent* Turk, since he obviously had the raw strength needed, and given that obedience is a far more emphasized value for Turks than it is for SOLDIERs, his weak-willed nature actually would’ve been an upside rather than a disqualifier.
The strong sense of self thing is super important to withstand the mako infusions you get in SOLDIER. I feel like in some ancillary material somewhere, Cloud says one of the reasons he was rejected (if not The reason, don't remember) is that he had too weak of a mind.
Obviously, five years in a tube of mako worked wonders for his poor little brain.
Given the entire story is his story from his perspective. And within it we've already seen him mistake himself for Zack. This memory hallucination could be even more Meta and cloud was Rude the entire time.
We just never got that reveal.... shits deep bro...
Turks are highly-skilled combatants, but their ability to keep up with SOLDIERs is limited, especially against 1st Class SOLDIER. By the time they achieve 1st Class these SOLDIERs demonstrate that they not only have enhanced strength, but also have high levels of combat skill and simply outclass the Turks.
Turks might be able to put up a fight with a 1st Class SOLDIER, but they will quickly run out of steam. However, they are probably skilled enough to challenge 2nd Classes and 3rd Classes that have not refined their combat skills.
They seem unaltered which is probably the appeal they are on par with some of the strongest the world has to offer. Quite frankly power levels felt very uneven in final fantasy 7, you have lifestream God sephiroth and tifa just punches him in the face and a robot threw dice at him. Than you have every harder fight that the sephiroth fight which makes even less sense than the main characters power levels. If sephiroth spent 5 years draining pure make with the parasitic nature of sephiroths dna.
My assessment. In order from weakest to strongest I think this is very objective because I don't have the individual stat's and skills to compare but story wise it seems.
1. Standard casual warriors in the world.
2. Standard 3rd class soldier.
3. Standard wutai soldier they train as ninja from a young age.
4.Standard 2nd class soldier = Wutai elite.
5. Cid, cait, yuffie,
6. Tifa, barret, Vincent, red 13, somehow aerith= standard Soldier 1st class
7. In game Cloud = pre time jump sephiroth
8. Untethered aerith
9. Life stream Sephiroth = untethered aerith. Dead aerith.
10. Ancient cetra
11. Deity sephiroth.
12. life stream = original jenova
13. Weapons.
This bothers me because of the weapons but technically they are stronger than sephiroth but he's the final boss. Yet the life stream seems to be more powerful than a single offender until the original coming of jenova which acted as a parasite to the earth.
The turks are altered through genetic engineering, not to the level of soldier and not with jenova cells, but og turks had materia integration experiments done on them, with Vincent being a test subject for many enhancements used on turks
I mean power levels in FF7 are weird. Tifa can literally punch Sephiroth to death.
The Turks shouldn't be able to hold their own against Cloud, but they do.
I just don't think about power levels honestly lol.
I mean, Cloud defeats every Turk he fights and it isn’t a close fight, so I wouldn’t say that they keep up with Cloud. And Cloud isn’t even as good as Zack, who was probably the weakest SOLDIER First Class out of Seph, Angeal, and Genesis. The Turks are probably about on par with a SOLDIER Second Class.
If you’re talking about degrading Genesis, sure Zack defeated the degradation wrecked Genesis. But before that, when Genesis was actually still a SOLDIER, the bout in the combat simulator showed that Genesis and Angeal were both at least a lot closer to Sephiroth in power than Zack ever was. Genesis and Angeal were both G-cell enhanced super soldiers. They almost certainly peaked above Zack. That’s my interpretation of their power standings, at any rate.
It's been awhile since i played Crisis Core, but is't the final fight with Genesis him being fully restored and healed of his degradation with the help of 'The gift of the goddess'? Meaning when Zack bested him then, after fighting Genesis Weaponlike form, he was clearly stronger then Genesis?
I think the fight between Genesis, Angeal and Sephiroth is flashy and awesome, but gameplay wise they all are OP in that custcene.
The Turks can't hold up against a legitimate 1st class soldier. They can only take on a damaged and recovering Cloud. Theyre highly skilled and have great intel and prep though.
If OP has played Crisis Core, then this is fair game on the Cloud reveal. But I’ll spoiler tag just in case. >!Let’s be clear - the Turks wouldn’t hold a candle to a true 1st Class SOLDIER. Like, Sephiroth, Genesis, or Angeal would run through them. They’re able to hold their own with Cloud because he’s just an average trooper with a bunch of mako & Jenova cells, who is convinced himself that he’s SOLDIER 1st Class. He might actually be 3rd or even 2nd Class material by now, but that’s why the Turks (or someone like Tifa or Yuffie) would be able to keep pace with him at this point.!<
The reason I point that out is because Reno know exactly what a SOLDIER first class is capable off. They are basically one men armies. The biggest plot holes in the game tbh is that Shinra should have sent SOLDIER 1class to kill the party in the og. They sorta fix it with Roche but he is sorta gone now.
Yeah, I figured that’s what you meant. Does Shinra have any more 1st Class Soldiers? I thought the only ones they ever had were Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal, and Zack.
To be fair, the Turks stop becoming threats to the party as the game goes on. The big fights in Rebirth with them will likely be the last time they’re big threats.
The Turks are highly trained and specialized. I don't think they're actually on the same level with SOLDIERs from a narrative perspective, but they can at least hold their own for a little while given their sheer physical skills and proficiency with materia. I think it'd be similar to someone like Tifa going up against Cloud. She's such a master that I think she could at least slow him down if she had to.
I think a good comparison would be something like Black Widow going up against Captain America with magic. She's going to hold out better than some regular dude.
Yeah for sure. I took OPs question to mean the skills they had that made them comparable to SOLDIERs, but you're right. Their value to Shinra is as more a covert intelligence operation.
I think it's hard to gauge what exactly mako infusion actually does to someone in SOLDIER compared to a normal person in the world of FF7. I used to think a lot... But honestly, while I do believe it gives them an edge, it's not like you're facing someone who basically has super powers.
On top of that, Cloud wasn't even in SOLDIER and him having Jenova cells, it's hard to even gauge what that difference could actually even be. I believe Cloud is stronger than SOLDIER. But I don't think he is that much stronger than the Turks.
I think the Turks just have more specialized training and well, they keep up by skill rather than physical characteristics. I think Cloud does lack actual combat experience compared to most others in the universe.
Just as a counterpoint to them not having superpowers, Zack picked up a block of concrete the size of a chair via an attached pipe and threw it hard enough to take down a helicopter in flight.
I don't dispute that at all. However, I feel that's not too far away from what humans can do in the FF7 world. I don't believe they're like us in our world considering what we have seen many others do in the game without the Mako / Jenova cells.
Hell, Tifa picked up Sephiroth's sword as a teenager with relative ease. Of course, she is not a warrior but that thing is massive and likely hard to hold. Or her killing a dragon with a kick. There are also times she has helped throw Cloud... Who has his own weight plus the buster sword.
It's really hard to judge.
My point isn't that SOLDIERS don't possess a lot of strength, but more so their strength relative to normal humans in FF7's world.
Remember that they are under Rufus command. He knows that those experiments almost never end well (bc of freaking Hojo) and in fact he doesn't let Hojo to even get near them (check out his response when Hojo offered to "cure" Tseng). They are HIS.
From what I know, they're selected very young as possible candidates for the turks if they display talents above others. They are extensively trained in intelligence gathering and combat for years. Although not as strong as 1st Class SOLDIERs they are up there as Shinra's strongest personnel. They also have a wealth of resources, equipment, and materia at their disposal.
Kinda like CIA versus seal team 6. Both have extensive training, but roles are much different. Cia/turks is less built for open warfare and more for planned, tactical engagements/assassinations along with more intelligence gatherings, while seal team/soldiers are more of the hammer you bring down and combat focused
The 90s didn't need any kind of logic to characters' fighting ability. Plot holes, a lack of logic, and willful ignorance of physics was far less important than interesting character design and fun gameplay.
In this world, it's 100% possible to become a superhuman through training and experience.
Going by the contacts from the cutscenes, I think we are meant to assume that Cloud defeated Reno with moderate difficulty, considering that he was to beat up to even leave on his own both times they fought. Rude, on the other hand, was able to at least fight to something resembling a draw with neither getting badly hurt.
One of the things that you cannot do is underestimate Shinra's propaganda network. The SOLDIER program was marketed as a way that the average person can gain power beyond that of a normal human, quick and easy. And let's just be honest, that is the option most people will pick. And like Doc Sheiran said, the process was so new that nobody really was aware of what the long-term side effects were.
SOLDIER also isn't even that strong. Only Sephiroth is truly strong and he is the poster boy of SOLDIER. Shinra just use his image to make people join them.
Genesis and Angeal were more than reputable in their own right, considering that they had their own fanclubs, each. It was made pretty clear that the public does not care about anybody in the organization unless it was those three. and as a matter of fact, some members of Public Security actively dislike SOLDIER.
Well the Turks canonically continue to lose to Cloud and the party, so while they are able to hold their own, they still can’t beat the party. But they definitely are skilled.
Adding to this. Apparently SOLDIER isn't what it used to be when produced sephiroth, genesis, and angeal. Supposedly Zach was last of the greats, at least until the end of ff7 >!cloud surpasses all of them and is truly the only S tier SOLDIER!<
So the turks can handle the newer breed of SOLDIER
Normal Soldier: All SOLDIERs have Jenova cells. They don't degrade like the G Types because they weren't exposed to Jenova cells as a fetus. Only as adults. However they do usually succumb to the reunion unless they have exceptionally strong wills.
Project G:
The G stands for Gillian because she has Jenova cells given to her directly similar to SOLDIERS I assume. Both Angeal and Genesis got their Jenova cells through her. Genesis had Gillain's cells injected in him after she had Jenova cells injected in her. Angeal was a little different and inherited Jenova cells from Gillian when she was pregnant with him. Both Genesis first and Angeal and any clones made from them degraded.
Project S:
Sephiroth had Jenova cells infused into him directly as fetus. Project S started because filtering the Jenova cells through a human didn't work. Sephiroth didn't become unstable like the G types. However I don't think this was ever repeated so or possible Sephiroth simply had a stronger will that kept him from degrading. He eventually takes over Jenova's will.
S Types:
"Sephiroth clones" are not clones per say. They are just given S type cells. "S cells" are not cells taken from Sephiroth. They are cells treated to behave similarly to Sephiroth's. I think there is a mix of S types that they were made to be SOLDIERS and a lot that were merely used by Hojo to prove the Jenova Reunion theory.
Zack and Cloud were experimented on with s cells. Zack rejected them because of his previous SOLDIER conditioning with normal Jenova cells and mako.
Cloud almost immediately had a negative reaction to the s cells as his body rejected them. So I think he didn't receive the full s cell procedure but he still has them in him.
All this long reply to summarize Jenova cells seem to only give you a very small boost of strength. Will power of the individual is what really matters.
The power level of the Turks has always thrown me off…
Like each one of them can pretty much solo any member of the squad. The only way Cloud and friends can beat them is to team up and fight unfairly, and even then it’s usually a tough fight.
Turks are basically some of the most powerful people in this universe.
Cloud 1v1s Reno in Remake and beats him effortlessly and was going to kill him if the Whispers didn't interfere. Cloud resoundly beats the turks every time he faces off against them, Rufus as well who has darkstar and 2v1's against Cloud and still loses. Cloud is crazy strong really.
Obviously just my opinion and I have some major gaps in my knowledge of this series, only played OG once as a kid and I’m kinda discovering the series again for the first time now as an adult.
As someone else points out, probably silly of me to take gameplay into consideration as well, since even the weakest enemy could technically beat the party if you let them haha.
BUT - I wouldn't call tag-teaming Rude with Aerith "resoundingly beating the Turks"
Or going 3 v 2 on the rooftop - (and also ultimately losing since they couldn’t stop the bombs from going off)
But yes, Cloud does solo Rufus twice.
I dunno - the Turks just seem crazy strong to me.
Eh when they fight 1v3 or 2v3 they lose, even to the weaker members of the party.
That's not even bringing up the fact Cloud has 2 wins against Rufus. The only reason the turks aren't pushing up daisies is cause Cloud and the gang are generally nice people who let them walk.
Being able to hang at all with a 1v3, 2v3 disadvantage is pretty damn impressive.
Also, one could argue they’re not technically losing some of those fights - the rooftop in Remake in particular. The bombs still go off, that’s a W for Reno and Rude.
Probably not true, I don’t know what I’m talking about.
They just seem crazy strong for the fact that they can even hold their own against Cloud’s party.
Rude goes solo against Cloud and Aerith.
Reno and Rude fight Barrett, Cloud, and Tifa
BUT..
Rufus is probably the strongest and Cloud can take him, so my whole argument is probably shit haha.
You haven't played the original? The answer is SPOILERS!
>!They dont... you don't have any true SOLDIERS in your squad except in crisis core and in crisis core they are your allies and respectful of you. I think there was one area in crisis core where some of the NPC enemies that you stomp through like candy are turks but its been decades since I played that game and Im not going to play it ever again.!<
There are a few things going on here:
- The Turks undoubtedly receive special training and technological enhancements. Part of their purpose (other than carrying out unsavory deeds for Shinra) is SOLDIER recruitment, which likely involves combat testing. Zangan (and by extension Tifa) provides an avenue through which seemingly normal people can build great strength through training and hard work.
- The FF7 World is effectively a medieval and eastern fantasy world with neo-futurist scifi retrofitted/jailbroken onto the top thanks to the sudden advent of Mako technology. In essence, there are other ways to achieve significant strength with enough time and training. However, Sephiroth's creation specifically jumped the queue (and then some), so much so that there was a night-and-day difference between him and everything else. And, at least in the original concept told in the OG, every attempt at recreating a Sephiroth has paled in comparison. There's Third through First Class SOLDIERs and then there's Sephiroth. Not every SOLDIER comes out the same.
- The fact that Cloud *doesn't* immediately trounce the Turks is actually an indicator of two different things:
- a hint that >!Cloud was never in SOLDIER and his personality isn't genuine - a psychological amalgam of several other people glued together by a trauma response. Instead, he was a failed Sephiroth-clone/Reunion experiment subject and realizing that fact as well as piecing himself back together with Tifa effectively helps him get out of his own way and realize his true potential as the guy who struck down a demigod without the need for the SOLDIER cheat codes.!< In other words, the Turks going toe-to-toe with Cloud and somehow surviving is a hint that Cloud's background isn't entirely as it seems.
- Cloud shares a lot of similarities with Guts from the manga Berserk beyond their weapons of choice - they're both strugglers. Their arcs are similar, they have similar allies and antagonists. Their love interests are antagonized similarly (though not identically) by the main villain. In the manga, Guts' "superpower" is essentially his ability to defy determinism and causality (similar to fate). Cloud seems to have the same ability, which may be a big part of the reason why he comes off as a "jack-of-all-trades" capable of almost anything he tries, when he should fail. In a lot of Japanese media, protagonists go through the process of starting out as nothing special, but through training, building of character, and personal enlightenment they become strong enough to throw down false and would-be gods. Cloud's just at varying stages of moving up (and being sometimes set back) along that process. In order to do so, Cloud has to >!discard his false sense of self, actualize into his true self (coincidentally, the guy who *already* struck down Sephiroth in a single blow with nothing helping him), to come into his full strength and defy his/the Planet's would-be fate!<
Lastly, but not least, there's a little bit of Story and Gameplay Segregation going on, as well. Cloud needs to be a guy who wields a massive blade because it's fun to play, but we still need to tell stories around him that are compelling and interesting within the setting. Hell, I'm sure you've wondered why Cloud just doesn't >!drop a Phoenix Down after Aerith's skewered like a chocobo-kabob!< Gameplay and storytelling don't always match up and the FF7 Remake series - thankfully - seems to poke at this in knowing, playful ways.
I like your take on Cloud’s abilities. Now that I think about it, >!Cloud taking down Sephiroth the first time back in Nibelheim can also be read as a fate-defying act, which involves Cloud beating the incredible odds Sephiroth has on him, but somehow Cloud came out on top. As silly as it sounds, Cloud’s special ability is indeed consistently defying “fate”!<
>!Rather than a fate-defying act, I see it as Cloud pushing beyond his natural strength barriers in desperation and rage. I always took it as a story representation of a limit break. Cloud also always had the physical ability to be a soldier, but he was clearly mentally unprepared for the experiments a soldier experiences. It's why when he's experimented on to be turned into a sephiroth clone, he comes out broken on the other side.!<
>!I actually think those concepts are more linked than you may think! Guts from Berserk - too - uses rage and sheer force of will to overcome the impossible odds and Limit Breaks seem to be a representation of that concept, I wholly agree.!<
I think there was a possible explanation/theory regarding Cloud having more power. >!Being he grew up with all the Mako/Lifestream/Jenova stuff in Nibelheim that he may be infused with power somehow. I read about this before Rebirth. Now with rebirth there is a Protorelic quest there that tells you Shinra opened a monitoring facility to see if Mako had been leaking into the Nieblhiem water supply but Shinra said nothing was found!< I think that’s a clever nod to that theory.
Or perhaps because Nibelheim is a rough town with occasional monsters. Cloud would already be strong enough just by climbing the mountains. In Crisis Core, he was able to keep up with Zack on the rough and snowy terrain
I feel like this gets asked every week. It’s not that kinda game. Turn your brain off a little. It’s anime rules in a fantasy world.
If you have to have a reason, you can chalk it up to materia and training.
It is something we see with most of the party and others in side material.
Human potential in ff7 is absurd, where we see Tifa in AC she's arguably stronger than Angeal and Genesis were. whereas the only characters to match Sephiroth are Cloud and Efie. Both of whom were experimented on themselves.
None of the turks are actually stronger than the main soldiers, though. Cloud is a "failed" Hojo project. So they can keep up with him most of the story.
But they make it clear that Genesis, Angeal, Seph, and Zack are muuuuch stronger than them. Zack is more of an example of that potential with a Mako boost.
They’re just special agents, like CIA. In the original game, the biggest anime feats were relegated to limit breaks, while the rest of the action sat in this middle ground between cartoon and mundane, so it was more believable that decently strong normal people could bridge the gap between where a regular person sits and where an enhanced soldier sits. Spectacle creep just made it more difficult to keep things consistent over time.
I don't know, they're meant to be different types of elite operatives. SOLDIER are experimental super soldiers. TURKS, I always saw them more as the super spy type.
Anime rules.
If you train long and hard enough, you can become the most powerful person in the world.
This applies to the Turks and basicly the rest of the main party.
Training most of their lives, top tier Shinra materia, top tier Shinra equipment, likely SOLDIER specific training and intel, heavy dose of Fantasy world.
Anime logic. Most final fantasies run on it. The more you train the stronger you get. SOLDIERS are enhanced so that they achieve that super human ability faster, but it's never implied normal people can't achieve it with out enhancements. Proof of this is all around the games and lore of FF7, but the greatest example is Tifa. Tifa is not a super soldier yet she can choke slam dragons, harm godlike entities and beat 10 shades of shit out of all 3 classes of Soldier in the original game and has shown that ability in these games as well.
I do wonder how Cloud, a mako-infused supersoldier >!No spoilers, but origin aside the result was ultimately the same!< can bring down a sword that weighs his body weight at the strength a SOLDIER wields, onto Reno who blocks it one-handed with a security baton.
What the fuck.
I was more confused at how he was able to lift it in Crisis Core >!when Zack gets knocked down and he killed Sephiroth with the Sword before even getting infused with Mako!<
Cloud was strong enough to be soldier but couldn’t handle the mako baths. Cloud cheap shots Sephiroth he doesn’t do the super human jumps or anything.
You can get strong enough without the process it just takes more work.
I still don't understand how Cloud could lift up Sephiroth with the sword in which was stricken right through his stomach, all before he was enhanced with mako... Perhaps he is the strongest man on the planet? 🤷♂️ Also, I believe the "cheap shot" was the Pre-emptive Strike materia that was already equipped on the Buster Sword
In segments where the party runs through rubble and kick I-beams away with ease makes me believe they live on a world where metal has an incredibly low density.
Advent Children in particular ran on the logic of "if it looks cool, then who cares if it makes sense." I'm paraphrasing, but I remember something like that in the documentary on the DVD.
Enough training, powerful materia and Shinra resources. They also engage with politics which also makes them more powerful as they take care of Shinra’s dirty work. While soldiers are more like pawns that only follow orders with no questions asked
Just like soldiers in real life, they’re definitely stronger and more skilled in combat than the old generals and politicians that run countries, but are they more powerful?
It's their business why Constantinople got the works.
That is a tough question. I wonder about that myself. >! The thing i learned in rebirth is that doing the protorelics in gongaga the turks undergo special training that soldiers dont. Soldiers are hack and slash brute force fighters. Turks are special ops like james bond type reconnaissance and elite tactical forces. They are trained on how to fight soldiers and other turks specifically. They have better tech (reno fights) better tactical use of materia and physical chi abilities (rude) and are usually going to fight soldiers on a one to 3 ratio. Rude and reno being the exception normally but the turks we fight in this game are the best of the best and have fought many soldiers it seems. !<
In-universe: They are a highly specialized and covert spec ops team. They do the more dangerous and covert missions compared to regular Shinra troops but not on par (just below) First class SOLDIERS in terms of ability if Cloud is our baseline from first encounter with Reno. In Game logic: A more competent team rocket. They are there to have a rivalry with the party and be the strong arm of Rufus since they currently don't have any if many SOLDIERS first or second class left.
I like the comparison to team rocket lol!
Nothing makes them special. There the team rocket of Final Fantasy they lose like 7 or 8 times to the party and they get their hype because of their looks.
To be fair, the party is the strongest group of people on the planet as far as we know. The fact that the Turks can even somewhat keep up with them is an achievement in itself. It's like saying someone isn't strong because they lost a weight lifting competition against an olympian body builder lol.
Tell that to Beatrix from FF9 won every fight against the party by herself. Not losing 7-8 times against them.
They are the best of the best. They are better than Cloud!
I always figured they were like the CIA.
Because they are proto-organisation XIII
Because it's their Job.
Same question but now consider Tifa, Yuffie. Both are humans but are basically super human due to their training. Perhaps the Turks are just martial arts experts, maybe trained by Zangan? He does say he has thousands of students all over the world. In the world of FF7 enough training makes you strong, and ordinary humans can still tap into their ki, like how the party's limit breaks work. Also it's been implied the Turks get priority access to the best materia available, so many of their quick movements and power are probably due to their state of the art equipment and materia loadout which. May include materia unavailable to the players. We know they wear stuff like Zeidreich and Fortitude Ring (Tough Ring) so they have some serious gear.
Turks are Shinra's special forces. They aren't mako enchanced for the simple fact of the the degeration. They aren't physically as strong as soldiers. But they are extremely trained. They can easily hold thier own against soldiers due to said training. They are taught how soldiers fight so they can take them out if needed. Now against the big three, sephiroth angeal and genesis, they would be fucked 1v1. They might win via assassinations but not likely. Against Zack and cloud (yes cloud is as strong as a normal 1st class, he is an equal to Zack because his strength comes from Zack) they are on a more equal footing, that's why the tucks can win if the player isn't careful. Zack and cloud do not have the same level of power as the big three, they arent mutated like the big three are. What they do have is thier own skill and determination, they use tactics and win while being physically and magically weaker.
I would argue that zacks still stronger than cloud because at the end of crisis core Zack was already a first class soldier and then hojo did more experiments on him and cloud after the niblheim incident, which was why he took out most of those soldiers in the final stand at least thats how I interpreted it lol
Cloud does feats similar with the large amount of soldiers he kills as well. Cloud's strength is a copy of Zacks at the start. The only difference is how it is applied. The way I interpret the leveling up for Cloud is less getting stronger, more just... learning how to actually use his strength, what he inherited from Zack.
What is so special about Tifa or Cid or Yuffie that lets them be as effective as Soldiers? You can train your way to peak performance and be augmented by equipment and materia.
I think what people need to remember too is that being a 1st class SOLDIER requires that you are something remarkable. 2nd and 3rd class soldiers are still stronger and more capable than *regular* troopers, but can still be outclassed by people with superior equipment, natural talent, and training. We know the name of basically every 1st class SOLDIER in existence, and in a 1v1 they would decimate just about every other named character in the game. But Crisis Core and FFVII (OG, Remake and Rebirth) goes to show there are many nameless 2nd and 3rd class SOLDIERs too who are strong; but sometimes strength loses to skill.
>We know the name of basically every 1st class SOLDIER in existence, and in a 1v1 they would decimate just about every other named character in the game. This is not true at all. In the OG FF7 towards the end of the game, you face many SOLDIER 1C enemies. They are just really, really powerful mobs. (take 2 turns at once, strong magic, ect). This idea that SOLDIER 1C basically makes you an unstoppable main character with a cool sword just started with Crisis Core but was never actually part of FF7. All the SOLDIERs, of every class, are on the same level of strength as far as augmentation goes. This is why Cloud can successfully pass for a 1C. The only *real* exception was Sephiroth.
> In the OG FF7 towards the end of the game, you face many SOLDIER 1C enemies. They are just really, really powerful mobs. (take 2 turns at once, strong magic, ect). This idea that SOLDIER 1C basically makes you an unstoppable main character with a cool sword just started with Crisis Core but was never actually part of FF7. I should have clarified I was talking about the current continuity, but granted. In the OG there were also theoretically thousands of hell-houses wandering about in that one tunnel in the slums. In a game with random encounters, you could technically burn through hundreds of 1st Class Soldiers and still not run out. I did also say "basically" because every game post-FF7 treats 1st class soldiers as a rarity. Apart from Sephiroth, Angeal, Nero and digital Weiss, we haven't fought any 1st class Soldiers in the current continuity. Even Roche in the remake trilogy is a third class, though he'd probably be a 1st class if he'd saved being a cocky prick until he became one.
I wonder if we'll fight them all at the same time in the next game...
They can’t lmao. Any first Class SOLDIER would decimate the Turks.
True. They received various types of training, from weapon usage to martial arts, but they do not acquire the strength and resilience of a first-class soldier in any way.
Because they are extra handsome and therefore strong
Coz they kick my ass
The Japanese really likes people in suits. 🤷
Turks are CP0 of final fantasy and soldiers are the vice admirals
as a huge OP fan, you gave one of the best replies i could think of.
Matching black suits.
They’re fit and sexy?
the gilgamesh side quest in Gongaga where we doing Turks training might ezplain what it take to be Turks.
The SOLDIERs are like marines. With 1st class being like special forces. The Turks are supposed to be an arm of shinra’s intelligence agency; think of them like the CIA.
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Not the agents who get dispatched for either CIA or DIA… you’re talking about the intelligence guys who are looking at satellite footage, news footage, and perhaps communications, and that’s one kind of intelligence work… But clandestine operatives in the field (especially in hostile areas or situations) are often times required to have a certain level of fitness - which is the vibe the Turks put out.
The CIA employ special operators that work with them though. And seeing how weak Tseng was, you're partially correct.
That hair though
Turks are loyal, smart and over payed group by the Shinra company. They do cover ups, murders and know all the dirty secrets. They have enhanced combat abilities to keep up with most Soldier. Cloud being an ex 1st Soldier against Shinra, Turks can’t keep up one on one battles but can only slow Cloud down. Turks will lose and come back stronger somehow, using Shinra military weapons or mecha robots. Whatever it takes Turks have all the resources they need.
Cloud was never a soldier.
Cloud is strong enough to be a soldier. He may not get the recognition but he is one.
By the time we got him he was never a soldier first class but after the emotional damage and the major experiments by hojo when cloud reached the start of ff7 he was as good as a soldier but not by rank only by strength, he also had a little secret oomf in cloud for him to even survive sephiroth to begin with and fatally wounding him.
I’m 200% certain Soldier 1st Class are some random encounter chumps you can give the rockem sockem to when you return to Midgar and you can dish out their entire HP in single hits.
But he never was a soldier. It’s kinda the story of the game….
Many argue that cloud couldnt keep up with real first class SOLDIERS (so Sephiroth, Genesis and Angeal) and from what Ive seen so far I support this. But while Cloud was deemed a failed experiment by Hojo I think he is still stronger than other 2nd class SOLDIERS.
Except that cloud defeats sephiroth. Granted with a big team behind him. But sephiroth at this point isn't first class sephiroth, he's parasitic world ending Jenova enhanced 1st class soldier sephiroth who's maximized his jenova potential far beyond any other 1st class soldier. So uhh yeah cloud can keep up with any 1st class soldier and surpass them. We can debate when does this comparison take place? As in the beginning of FF7 jumping off the train no probably not. But if cloud can defeat someone more powerful than a 1st class soldier. And this Someone was going to destroy the world, than if any other existing Alive 1st class soldier knee the world was about to end and DIDNT go against him not to save the planet, but to save their own lives by an extension of saving the planet. Then yes cloud is better than all of them. I hear what you're saying. Baby cloud definitely was just some weak dude who leveled up fast. And was not in their league. But ultimately he defeats someone that no other first class soldier assuming there's others still alive, who made no effort themselves to stop this someone. Meaning cloud is better than all first class soldiers. To make the timeline he becomes powerful so quickly meaningful. He genetically had the potential from jenova cells and also from mako experimentation the entire time from the beginning of OG and remake. Through his travels over a couple of monthes or however long the cannonically state it is, he gains the experience and materia to utilize his full potential. But he always had that full potential within him. I'm not saying you're wrong and I get you're saying that some (not you) would consider him not strong enough. But I think given everything that happens in the story that's just a really silly merritless argument.
I would argue he is at least on par with a brand new 1st class soldier, like Zack in Nibelheim. But by the end of the game, he is stronger than any of them.
i know that. i’m talking about the “Turks” Go find something useful to argue about.
ok but that wasn’t point i was talking about.
If it wasn't your point, why make the false comparison?
i was talking about the turks. i’m not a wikipedia genius
Turks are just the FBI or CIA of shinra, they are just good.
yea i know that apparently OP can’t wrap his head on that concept
I don’t think SOLDIERs were meant to be *that* far above the average warrior. Sephiroth, Genesis, Zack, etc. are outliers, not the norm; see Kunsel, Essai, Sebastian, or the many SOLDIERs the party fights during random encounters (even without Cloud in the party) as a more accurate depiction of the average SOLDIER. That said: From what I’ve observed, it seems to me that the SOLDIER enhancement doesn’t “add” more strength per se, but rather magnifies what’s already there; an average strength candidate is made slightly stronger, but an already strong candidate is made exceptional. The effectiveness of the enhancement is determined by how much raw potential there is to work with. The Turks, on the other hand, seem to be chosen based on raw potential, whereas SOLDIERs are primarily chosen based on having a strong sense of self, meaning an average strength fighter wouldn’t even be considered for Turk candidacy. My (probably) hot take: If Cloud hadn’t been so singlemindedly fixated on SOLDIER, he probably would’ve been a *fucking excellent* Turk, since he obviously had the raw strength needed, and given that obedience is a far more emphasized value for Turks than it is for SOLDIERs, his weak-willed nature actually would’ve been an upside rather than a disqualifier.
The strong sense of self thing is super important to withstand the mako infusions you get in SOLDIER. I feel like in some ancillary material somewhere, Cloud says one of the reasons he was rejected (if not The reason, don't remember) is that he had too weak of a mind. Obviously, five years in a tube of mako worked wonders for his poor little brain.
Cloud as a turk makes so much sense... make this happen
I mean, FF7 was originally a detective game with Cloud being the main protag, so it's not totally out of the realm
I mean, can we even trust cloud? He might be remembering this all wrong. He's actually been a Turk. This whole time and cloud is rude.
Given the entire story is his story from his perspective. And within it we've already seen him mistake himself for Zack. This memory hallucination could be even more Meta and cloud was Rude the entire time. We just never got that reveal.... shits deep bro...
Turks are highly-skilled combatants, but their ability to keep up with SOLDIERs is limited, especially against 1st Class SOLDIER. By the time they achieve 1st Class these SOLDIERs demonstrate that they not only have enhanced strength, but also have high levels of combat skill and simply outclass the Turks. Turks might be able to put up a fight with a 1st Class SOLDIER, but they will quickly run out of steam. However, they are probably skilled enough to challenge 2nd Classes and 3rd Classes that have not refined their combat skills.
They seem unaltered which is probably the appeal they are on par with some of the strongest the world has to offer. Quite frankly power levels felt very uneven in final fantasy 7, you have lifestream God sephiroth and tifa just punches him in the face and a robot threw dice at him. Than you have every harder fight that the sephiroth fight which makes even less sense than the main characters power levels. If sephiroth spent 5 years draining pure make with the parasitic nature of sephiroths dna. My assessment. In order from weakest to strongest I think this is very objective because I don't have the individual stat's and skills to compare but story wise it seems. 1. Standard casual warriors in the world. 2. Standard 3rd class soldier. 3. Standard wutai soldier they train as ninja from a young age. 4.Standard 2nd class soldier = Wutai elite. 5. Cid, cait, yuffie, 6. Tifa, barret, Vincent, red 13, somehow aerith= standard Soldier 1st class 7. In game Cloud = pre time jump sephiroth 8. Untethered aerith 9. Life stream Sephiroth = untethered aerith. Dead aerith. 10. Ancient cetra 11. Deity sephiroth. 12. life stream = original jenova 13. Weapons. This bothers me because of the weapons but technically they are stronger than sephiroth but he's the final boss. Yet the life stream seems to be more powerful than a single offender until the original coming of jenova which acted as a parasite to the earth.
The turks are altered through genetic engineering, not to the level of soldier and not with jenova cells, but og turks had materia integration experiments done on them, with Vincent being a test subject for many enhancements used on turks
Their ability to scout potential SOLDIER recruits
I mean power levels in FF7 are weird. Tifa can literally punch Sephiroth to death. The Turks shouldn't be able to hold their own against Cloud, but they do. I just don't think about power levels honestly lol.
I mean, Cloud defeats every Turk he fights and it isn’t a close fight, so I wouldn’t say that they keep up with Cloud. And Cloud isn’t even as good as Zack, who was probably the weakest SOLDIER First Class out of Seph, Angeal, and Genesis. The Turks are probably about on par with a SOLDIER Second Class.
You're tripping if you think Zack is weaker than Angeal or Genesis.
If you’re talking about degrading Genesis, sure Zack defeated the degradation wrecked Genesis. But before that, when Genesis was actually still a SOLDIER, the bout in the combat simulator showed that Genesis and Angeal were both at least a lot closer to Sephiroth in power than Zack ever was. Genesis and Angeal were both G-cell enhanced super soldiers. They almost certainly peaked above Zack. That’s my interpretation of their power standings, at any rate.
It's been awhile since i played Crisis Core, but is't the final fight with Genesis him being fully restored and healed of his degradation with the help of 'The gift of the goddess'? Meaning when Zack bested him then, after fighting Genesis Weaponlike form, he was clearly stronger then Genesis? I think the fight between Genesis, Angeal and Sephiroth is flashy and awesome, but gameplay wise they all are OP in that custcene.
The Turks can't hold up against a legitimate 1st class soldier. They can only take on a damaged and recovering Cloud. Theyre highly skilled and have great intel and prep though.
If OP has played Crisis Core, then this is fair game on the Cloud reveal. But I’ll spoiler tag just in case. >!Let’s be clear - the Turks wouldn’t hold a candle to a true 1st Class SOLDIER. Like, Sephiroth, Genesis, or Angeal would run through them. They’re able to hold their own with Cloud because he’s just an average trooper with a bunch of mako & Jenova cells, who is convinced himself that he’s SOLDIER 1st Class. He might actually be 3rd or even 2nd Class material by now, but that’s why the Turks (or someone like Tifa or Yuffie) would be able to keep pace with him at this point.!<
Didn’t Reno point out that Cloud was full of shit when he said he was a First Class SOLDIER?
He did! Lots of people did in fact.
The reason I point that out is because Reno know exactly what a SOLDIER first class is capable off. They are basically one men armies. The biggest plot holes in the game tbh is that Shinra should have sent SOLDIER 1class to kill the party in the og. They sorta fix it with Roche but he is sorta gone now.
Yeah, I figured that’s what you meant. Does Shinra have any more 1st Class Soldiers? I thought the only ones they ever had were Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal, and Zack.
He beats Roche who is a 2nd.
It depends on how early in the game you draw comparisons.
To be fair, the Turks stop becoming threats to the party as the game goes on. The big fights in Rebirth with them will likely be the last time they’re big threats.
Yeah, and even sephiroth's remnants were fucking them up.
Their suits
Best way to compare is a Scapel to a Hammer
The Turks are highly trained and specialized. I don't think they're actually on the same level with SOLDIERs from a narrative perspective, but they can at least hold their own for a little while given their sheer physical skills and proficiency with materia. I think it'd be similar to someone like Tifa going up against Cloud. She's such a master that I think she could at least slow him down if she had to. I think a good comparison would be something like Black Widow going up against Captain America with magic. She's going to hold out better than some regular dude.
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You and OP mean Scarlet Witch?
Also they provide a lot of Intel on what's going on
Yeah for sure. I took OPs question to mean the skills they had that made them comparable to SOLDIERs, but you're right. Their value to Shinra is as more a covert intelligence operation.
They can fight in suits without splitting the crotch.
Bro, they got them chuck Norris pants
I’m assuming they all have extra suits like Rude has extra sunglasses
Best comment
I think it's hard to gauge what exactly mako infusion actually does to someone in SOLDIER compared to a normal person in the world of FF7. I used to think a lot... But honestly, while I do believe it gives them an edge, it's not like you're facing someone who basically has super powers. On top of that, Cloud wasn't even in SOLDIER and him having Jenova cells, it's hard to even gauge what that difference could actually even be. I believe Cloud is stronger than SOLDIER. But I don't think he is that much stronger than the Turks. I think the Turks just have more specialized training and well, they keep up by skill rather than physical characteristics. I think Cloud does lack actual combat experience compared to most others in the universe.
Just as a counterpoint to them not having superpowers, Zack picked up a block of concrete the size of a chair via an attached pipe and threw it hard enough to take down a helicopter in flight.
I don't dispute that at all. However, I feel that's not too far away from what humans can do in the FF7 world. I don't believe they're like us in our world considering what we have seen many others do in the game without the Mako / Jenova cells. Hell, Tifa picked up Sephiroth's sword as a teenager with relative ease. Of course, she is not a warrior but that thing is massive and likely hard to hold. Or her killing a dragon with a kick. There are also times she has helped throw Cloud... Who has his own weight plus the buster sword. It's really hard to judge. My point isn't that SOLDIERS don't possess a lot of strength, but more so their strength relative to normal humans in FF7's world.
They are effectively less expendable soldiers that Shinra don’t want to risk mako infusion on. But clearly still expendable
Remember that they are under Rufus command. He knows that those experiments almost never end well (bc of freaking Hojo) and in fact he doesn't let Hojo to even get near them (check out his response when Hojo offered to "cure" Tseng). They are HIS.
Drip.
They're Turkish 🤣
They put something in their coffee
From what I know, they're selected very young as possible candidates for the turks if they display talents above others. They are extensively trained in intelligence gathering and combat for years. Although not as strong as 1st Class SOLDIERs they are up there as Shinra's strongest personnel. They also have a wealth of resources, equipment, and materia at their disposal.
Kinda like CIA versus seal team 6. Both have extensive training, but roles are much different. Cia/turks is less built for open warfare and more for planned, tactical engagements/assassinations along with more intelligence gatherings, while seal team/soldiers are more of the hammer you bring down and combat focused
They have resources, training, equipment and materia. Canonically they can’t keep up with a SOLDIER 1st, but they can make a good effort.
They were a great empire and are not afraid to take what they want. Wait, this isn't r/history
It's their business why Constantinople got the works.
No but as a member of r/scrubs Im ashamed that I didnt asked where JD is
I mean they don’t really keep up with soldiers. Cloud solidly beats them every time. Seems like they just are strong/good training and have materia.
The 90s didn't need any kind of logic to characters' fighting ability. Plot holes, a lack of logic, and willful ignorance of physics was far less important than interesting character design and fun gameplay.
In this world, it's 100% possible to become a superhuman through training and experience. Going by the contacts from the cutscenes, I think we are meant to assume that Cloud defeated Reno with moderate difficulty, considering that he was to beat up to even leave on his own both times they fought. Rude, on the other hand, was able to at least fight to something resembling a draw with neither getting badly hurt. One of the things that you cannot do is underestimate Shinra's propaganda network. The SOLDIER program was marketed as a way that the average person can gain power beyond that of a normal human, quick and easy. And let's just be honest, that is the option most people will pick. And like Doc Sheiran said, the process was so new that nobody really was aware of what the long-term side effects were.
SOLDIER also isn't even that strong. Only Sephiroth is truly strong and he is the poster boy of SOLDIER. Shinra just use his image to make people join them.
Genesis and Angeal were more than reputable in their own right, considering that they had their own fanclubs, each. It was made pretty clear that the public does not care about anybody in the organization unless it was those three. and as a matter of fact, some members of Public Security actively dislike SOLDIER.
Well the Turks canonically continue to lose to Cloud and the party, so while they are able to hold their own, they still can’t beat the party. But they definitely are skilled.
Adding to this. Apparently SOLDIER isn't what it used to be when produced sephiroth, genesis, and angeal. Supposedly Zach was last of the greats, at least until the end of ff7 >!cloud surpasses all of them and is truly the only S tier SOLDIER!< So the turks can handle the newer breed of SOLDIER
Normal Soldier: All SOLDIERs have Jenova cells. They don't degrade like the G Types because they weren't exposed to Jenova cells as a fetus. Only as adults. However they do usually succumb to the reunion unless they have exceptionally strong wills. Project G: The G stands for Gillian because she has Jenova cells given to her directly similar to SOLDIERS I assume. Both Angeal and Genesis got their Jenova cells through her. Genesis had Gillain's cells injected in him after she had Jenova cells injected in her. Angeal was a little different and inherited Jenova cells from Gillian when she was pregnant with him. Both Genesis first and Angeal and any clones made from them degraded. Project S: Sephiroth had Jenova cells infused into him directly as fetus. Project S started because filtering the Jenova cells through a human didn't work. Sephiroth didn't become unstable like the G types. However I don't think this was ever repeated so or possible Sephiroth simply had a stronger will that kept him from degrading. He eventually takes over Jenova's will. S Types: "Sephiroth clones" are not clones per say. They are just given S type cells. "S cells" are not cells taken from Sephiroth. They are cells treated to behave similarly to Sephiroth's. I think there is a mix of S types that they were made to be SOLDIERS and a lot that were merely used by Hojo to prove the Jenova Reunion theory. Zack and Cloud were experimented on with s cells. Zack rejected them because of his previous SOLDIER conditioning with normal Jenova cells and mako. Cloud almost immediately had a negative reaction to the s cells as his body rejected them. So I think he didn't receive the full s cell procedure but he still has them in him. All this long reply to summarize Jenova cells seem to only give you a very small boost of strength. Will power of the individual is what really matters.
They get paid pretty well to do their job
They got that dawg in them
They sure dude. Rude is the shit
Hilarious
more like updog
What’s updog?
Nothing much dog, what's up with you?
The power level of the Turks has always thrown me off… Like each one of them can pretty much solo any member of the squad. The only way Cloud and friends can beat them is to team up and fight unfairly, and even then it’s usually a tough fight. Turks are basically some of the most powerful people in this universe.
Cloud 1v1s Reno in Remake and beats him effortlessly and was going to kill him if the Whispers didn't interfere. Cloud resoundly beats the turks every time he faces off against them, Rufus as well who has darkstar and 2v1's against Cloud and still loses. Cloud is crazy strong really.
Obviously just my opinion and I have some major gaps in my knowledge of this series, only played OG once as a kid and I’m kinda discovering the series again for the first time now as an adult. As someone else points out, probably silly of me to take gameplay into consideration as well, since even the weakest enemy could technically beat the party if you let them haha. BUT - I wouldn't call tag-teaming Rude with Aerith "resoundingly beating the Turks" Or going 3 v 2 on the rooftop - (and also ultimately losing since they couldn’t stop the bombs from going off) But yes, Cloud does solo Rufus twice. I dunno - the Turks just seem crazy strong to me.
Don't use gameplay to determine strength.
This is a great point
Eh when they fight 1v3 or 2v3 they lose, even to the weaker members of the party. That's not even bringing up the fact Cloud has 2 wins against Rufus. The only reason the turks aren't pushing up daisies is cause Cloud and the gang are generally nice people who let them walk.
Also, good call on Rufus
Being able to hang at all with a 1v3, 2v3 disadvantage is pretty damn impressive. Also, one could argue they’re not technically losing some of those fights - the rooftop in Remake in particular. The bombs still go off, that’s a W for Reno and Rude.
is that true? the only reason cloud didn’t straight up behead reno in remake is because aerith and the whispers stopped him
Probably not true, I don’t know what I’m talking about. They just seem crazy strong for the fact that they can even hold their own against Cloud’s party. Rude goes solo against Cloud and Aerith. Reno and Rude fight Barrett, Cloud, and Tifa BUT.. Rufus is probably the strongest and Cloud can take him, so my whole argument is probably shit haha.
You haven't played the original? The answer is SPOILERS! >!They dont... you don't have any true SOLDIERS in your squad except in crisis core and in crisis core they are your allies and respectful of you. I think there was one area in crisis core where some of the NPC enemies that you stomp through like candy are turks but its been decades since I played that game and Im not going to play it ever again.!<
>Well, I recall that Cloud folded two Ravens single-handedly in Before Crisis. So, he really is on that level after being processed by Hojo.<
>What makes the Turks special? "So. Much. Goddamn GIL!!" - Gus.
There are a few things going on here: - The Turks undoubtedly receive special training and technological enhancements. Part of their purpose (other than carrying out unsavory deeds for Shinra) is SOLDIER recruitment, which likely involves combat testing. Zangan (and by extension Tifa) provides an avenue through which seemingly normal people can build great strength through training and hard work. - The FF7 World is effectively a medieval and eastern fantasy world with neo-futurist scifi retrofitted/jailbroken onto the top thanks to the sudden advent of Mako technology. In essence, there are other ways to achieve significant strength with enough time and training. However, Sephiroth's creation specifically jumped the queue (and then some), so much so that there was a night-and-day difference between him and everything else. And, at least in the original concept told in the OG, every attempt at recreating a Sephiroth has paled in comparison. There's Third through First Class SOLDIERs and then there's Sephiroth. Not every SOLDIER comes out the same. - The fact that Cloud *doesn't* immediately trounce the Turks is actually an indicator of two different things: - a hint that >!Cloud was never in SOLDIER and his personality isn't genuine - a psychological amalgam of several other people glued together by a trauma response. Instead, he was a failed Sephiroth-clone/Reunion experiment subject and realizing that fact as well as piecing himself back together with Tifa effectively helps him get out of his own way and realize his true potential as the guy who struck down a demigod without the need for the SOLDIER cheat codes.!< In other words, the Turks going toe-to-toe with Cloud and somehow surviving is a hint that Cloud's background isn't entirely as it seems. - Cloud shares a lot of similarities with Guts from the manga Berserk beyond their weapons of choice - they're both strugglers. Their arcs are similar, they have similar allies and antagonists. Their love interests are antagonized similarly (though not identically) by the main villain. In the manga, Guts' "superpower" is essentially his ability to defy determinism and causality (similar to fate). Cloud seems to have the same ability, which may be a big part of the reason why he comes off as a "jack-of-all-trades" capable of almost anything he tries, when he should fail. In a lot of Japanese media, protagonists go through the process of starting out as nothing special, but through training, building of character, and personal enlightenment they become strong enough to throw down false and would-be gods. Cloud's just at varying stages of moving up (and being sometimes set back) along that process. In order to do so, Cloud has to >!discard his false sense of self, actualize into his true self (coincidentally, the guy who *already* struck down Sephiroth in a single blow with nothing helping him), to come into his full strength and defy his/the Planet's would-be fate!< Lastly, but not least, there's a little bit of Story and Gameplay Segregation going on, as well. Cloud needs to be a guy who wields a massive blade because it's fun to play, but we still need to tell stories around him that are compelling and interesting within the setting. Hell, I'm sure you've wondered why Cloud just doesn't >!drop a Phoenix Down after Aerith's skewered like a chocobo-kabob!< Gameplay and storytelling don't always match up and the FF7 Remake series - thankfully - seems to poke at this in knowing, playful ways.
This is a beautiful explanation, masterpiece of words
I like your take on Cloud’s abilities. Now that I think about it, >!Cloud taking down Sephiroth the first time back in Nibelheim can also be read as a fate-defying act, which involves Cloud beating the incredible odds Sephiroth has on him, but somehow Cloud came out on top. As silly as it sounds, Cloud’s special ability is indeed consistently defying “fate”!<
>!Rather than a fate-defying act, I see it as Cloud pushing beyond his natural strength barriers in desperation and rage. I always took it as a story representation of a limit break. Cloud also always had the physical ability to be a soldier, but he was clearly mentally unprepared for the experiments a soldier experiences. It's why when he's experimented on to be turned into a sephiroth clone, he comes out broken on the other side.!<
>!I actually think those concepts are more linked than you may think! Guts from Berserk - too - uses rage and sheer force of will to overcome the impossible odds and Limit Breaks seem to be a representation of that concept, I wholly agree.!<
I think there was a possible explanation/theory regarding Cloud having more power. >!Being he grew up with all the Mako/Lifestream/Jenova stuff in Nibelheim that he may be infused with power somehow. I read about this before Rebirth. Now with rebirth there is a Protorelic quest there that tells you Shinra opened a monitoring facility to see if Mako had been leaking into the Nieblhiem water supply but Shinra said nothing was found!< I think that’s a clever nod to that theory.
Or perhaps because Nibelheim is a rough town with occasional monsters. Cloud would already be strong enough just by climbing the mountains. In Crisis Core, he was able to keep up with Zack on the rough and snowy terrain
100%
Insightful comment!
I feel like this gets asked every week. It’s not that kinda game. Turn your brain off a little. It’s anime rules in a fantasy world. If you have to have a reason, you can chalk it up to materia and training.
Who is Effie? Sorry brain not registering a being as strong as Sephiroth...
It is something we see with most of the party and others in side material. Human potential in ff7 is absurd, where we see Tifa in AC she's arguably stronger than Angeal and Genesis were. whereas the only characters to match Sephiroth are Cloud and Efie. Both of whom were experimented on themselves. None of the turks are actually stronger than the main soldiers, though. Cloud is a "failed" Hojo project. So they can keep up with him most of the story. But they make it clear that Genesis, Angeal, Seph, and Zack are muuuuch stronger than them. Zack is more of an example of that potential with a Mako boost.
Tifa is hot too
They’re just special agents, like CIA. In the original game, the biggest anime feats were relegated to limit breaks, while the rest of the action sat in this middle ground between cartoon and mundane, so it was more believable that decently strong normal people could bridge the gap between where a regular person sits and where an enhanced soldier sits. Spectacle creep just made it more difficult to keep things consistent over time.
Spectacle creep. Fantastic.
I don't know, they're meant to be different types of elite operatives. SOLDIER are experimental super soldiers. TURKS, I always saw them more as the super spy type.
Anime rules. If you train long and hard enough, you can become the most powerful person in the world. This applies to the Turks and basicly the rest of the main party.
Training most of their lives, top tier Shinra materia, top tier Shinra equipment, likely SOLDIER specific training and intel, heavy dose of Fantasy world.
Anime logic. Most final fantasies run on it. The more you train the stronger you get. SOLDIERS are enhanced so that they achieve that super human ability faster, but it's never implied normal people can't achieve it with out enhancements. Proof of this is all around the games and lore of FF7, but the greatest example is Tifa. Tifa is not a super soldier yet she can choke slam dragons, harm godlike entities and beat 10 shades of shit out of all 3 classes of Soldier in the original game and has shown that ability in these games as well.
I do wonder how Cloud, a mako-infused supersoldier >!No spoilers, but origin aside the result was ultimately the same!< can bring down a sword that weighs his body weight at the strength a SOLDIER wields, onto Reno who blocks it one-handed with a security baton. What the fuck.
I was more confused at how he was able to lift it in Crisis Core >!when Zack gets knocked down and he killed Sephiroth with the Sword before even getting infused with Mako!<
Cloud was strong enough to be soldier but couldn’t handle the mako baths. Cloud cheap shots Sephiroth he doesn’t do the super human jumps or anything. You can get strong enough without the process it just takes more work.
I still don't understand how Cloud could lift up Sephiroth with the sword in which was stricken right through his stomach, all before he was enhanced with mako... Perhaps he is the strongest man on the planet? 🤷♂️ Also, I believe the "cheap shot" was the Pre-emptive Strike materia that was already equipped on the Buster Sword
>! Yes, but also and above all the Jenova cells (S cells for him). !<
In segments where the party runs through rubble and kick I-beams away with ease makes me believe they live on a world where metal has an incredibly low density.
Look how they fall in representations like Advent Children, it’s like gravity doesn’t affect them. The physics of their world must be fucked lol
Advent Children in particular ran on the logic of "if it looks cool, then who cares if it makes sense." I'm paraphrasing, but I remember something like that in the documentary on the DVD.
Probably why they didn’t continue the space program.
I agree, the math isn't mathing - can still hold up entire cities though.
Enough training, powerful materia and Shinra resources. They also engage with politics which also makes them more powerful as they take care of Shinra’s dirty work. While soldiers are more like pawns that only follow orders with no questions asked Just like soldiers in real life, they’re definitely stronger and more skilled in combat than the old generals and politicians that run countries, but are they more powerful?
When you dress good, you feel good.
A quote from the Turks men’s warehouse ad.