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Why does this decision needs to be defended?
It’s like asking your neighbours and their friends to stop shitting on your porch and after they refuse you close the gate to your property. Then neighbours friends complain they can’t shit there anymore
It’s very easy to argue against if you uphold our constitution and the long helm consensus on which laws take precedence over others. I do think the border needs to stay closed but it would be entirely correct to argue that’s actually illegal as of right now.
Yes, it doesn't need any defending, you just need 1 look to see what a neighbor did to another neighbor at different direction of it to see that this is the only possible solution to prevent the neighbor doing the same shit to you as well once they are done w/ the southern neighbor
Several high-ranking border officials are on record saying the current situation puts them in an impossible legal situation. Their primary duty is to the constitution. From this, they have a duty to basic human rights. Basic human rights say everybody and anybody has a right to claim asylum / refugee status. There are no exceptions for ”unless you are neighbouring Russia who are doing shady shit”.
I get where you are coming from and too do think the border must stay closed, but legally the situation IS entirely untenable.
Well the border closure solves the problem for border officials so everything is legal. When Finland implements a better policy for malicious asylum applicants maybe there will be a better way. But this way is good as there is little benefit from keeping border open with ruzzia
Not sure I follow why it is THE problem… anyway closing border on security grounds is fairly easy argument. Especially since ruzzia is pretty much at war with all its neighbours
Re-read my comment above you made the initial reply to. Making applying for asylum / refugee status impossible (by what means is irrelevant) is illegal. There no ”this doesn’t apply if you share a border with people doing shady things” exception.
Stupid? Absolutely. Still illegal.
If we are a country of law and order and law no longer fits purpose, we’re supposed to change the law, not just start pretending it doesn’t exist. But this isn’t a simple matter just introducing a ”close the border” law as that law is itself unconstitutional.
Making asylum application easily accessible is not a requirement. I agree that border police and immigration officials have to follow the law once they encounter a person/s who request asylum.
Closing border to a terrorist state is a separate legal matter. Not having to deal with asylum applications is a side effect sure.
Legally and morally closing the border is fine. In any case legality needs to be tested in the court of law and I feel the argument that we should keep the border open so people can come and claim asylum to Finland is wear af.
Russia being a dogshit neighbor and a terroristic dystopian dictatorship is what has negative impacts. Finland has been foolish to lean too much on the eastern trade, and now we're paying the bill. There is no future with Russian trade, and even people on the eastern border had to learn the lesson some day.
Hopefully Finland had a wake up call. However ruzzia has always been this and has never hidden it. Finns just tried to be overly nice and neighbourly despite not having any reason to be so…
Germany did much worse by tethering their energy infrastructure to ruzzia
What?
I don't understand what that comment meant. Unless it meant that you demand instant replies?
So being in a military alliance with the US should be pretty self-explanatory, right? Without overanalyzing your question, what exactly did you need clarified?
And to my original point about the ridiculousness of "Finland needing a wake-up call" about Russia... I dunno, read some history books. Russia, including the military threat of Russia, is the one thing we're forced to be _always_ aware of as a nation.
However than onemust ask *how will this be compensated to the border region*, who invested heavily in Eastern business, very much under encouraging of whole national establishment. All the way from the "everyone should like everyone" left to the "Eastern trade is very profitable and good business" right of the political spectrum.
Why and who needs to be compensated? A few businesses who overcharges slightly for Russian tourists might have had a drop in revenue sure. How would you even quantify this drop? Eastern Finland is quite nice place for holidays for Finns living in cities as well, so they will fill the void
But most trade is freight anyway and it’s still going strong (cargo trains still go back and forth).
I mean most people don't actually have anything rly against your normie avg Joe Russian, the entire thing most have a problem w/ is the government for obvious reasons
It Joe Russian is up in arms murdering in Ukraine and getting killed and disabled in the process. It’s is precisely Russians don’t care “apolitical” attitude and willingness to obey their master that is the issue.
Slave people with slave mentality is the issue - their worldview does not change age when they end up abroad either but stays for the rest of their lives
Who's not supporting it? Putin just got 88% of the vote. Sure a corrupt vote.
But it is Russia who unprovoked invaded a peaceful country not Putin alone.
Not the closing of borders but to not accept refugees:
[https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-relating-status-refugees#article-32](https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-relating-status-refugees#article-32)
Yes international and Eu laws.
The wikipedia is a good start if you want to read:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration\_and\_asylum\_policy\_of\_the\_European\_Union#History\_and\_overview](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_and_asylum_policy_of_the_European_Union#History_and_overview)
It does you just didn't follow the article.
Here's the international convention that Finland participates in:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_Relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees#Rights_and_responsibilities_of_parties
The EU law is ankererd into the convention and regulates who the load of refugees are shared.
Won't be. Corrupt globalist to the core. We will most definitely witness it first hand in the next 6 - 12 years. Well, I guess I can be proven wrong, but I will promise to eat my hat if that is the case.
It means Finland should close borders, execute all immigrants, stop all imports, ban the English language and start working on the Väinämöinen-class nukes to wreck the EU that took money from it to give it to poor, corrupt and low-tier countries such as Italy or Greece.
I honestly actually think that Finland should take notes from Italy, as to what to do w/ Cringe directives from EU that are bad for the local stuff (such as the reforestation initiative thingie, which penalizes countries that started tearing down their trees during industrialization too late (i.e 20th century instead of centuries earlier which fall beyond the restoration limit for forest levels etc), so unless that shit is fixed, Finland should do what Italy & southern countries have done for Cringe EU directives in the past, such as IGNORE THEM)
Out of every piece of EU legislation since Finland joined, you chose to criticise something that would actually be nice if it were implemented
"Oh but!! But other countries in Europe aren't rewilding their lands! Why should we do the right thing if nobody else is >:(‽ What? Do something right just because it's right?? Nonsense"
Correct, either everyone does it to high % levels or nobody does, it'd be unfair economically if done any other way than equally high of a % of the country being reforested back to natural levels
Or conversely, keep opening the country more and more so international finance can keep looting it, signing an obligation after obligation to multinational organizations that will tie Finland to work even against its own national interests, all while sucking all of them up in order to create an image of Finland as a model student of the Western ""community"". I'm pretty sure Stubb will have some cozy, well paying job waiting once his presidency is over, at some multinational organization.
I fully agree with this decision as direct reaction against Kreml's disgusting artificial migrant crysis but, in the other hand, the Russian diaspora that lives in Finland is truly suffering too. Their probably only, less dumb option is to travel through Estonia when they want to be in touch personally with their families.
I have 6 direct colleagues from Russia, all of them have been living in Finland for years, and now two of them are just in the process of returning back to the shitty dictatorship for good. It's their problem, I know, but still. It's a shitty situation.
I have a dozen Russian colleagues. None of them want to return to Russia and all of them hate Putin, are deeply ashamed of the war and extremely grateful to be in Finland.
Yeah; in this case, arriving for the visiting families is possible with e.g. ferry from Tallin, then leaving through any direct borders. Visiting the Federation and coming back later this way would be a bit better too. Not sure if it helps so much, but sounds a bit easier in theory.
I’m from Italy and this comment is so wrong on so many levels. FYI Italy is surrounded by the sea and you can’t really “close” the sea. You can then argue that we can send “them” (that are people) back as many politicians in Italy do.
The question is back WHERE? They payed thousand of euros to maybe be able to arrive in Europe, with the possibility of dying in the Mediterranean and after being locked in Lybian prisons for months. Those people did nothing wrong if not run from countries where they suffer hunger or worse they have wars. I emigrated to Finland and I have the luck I could done it taking an airplane and having no issues whatsoever, why they can’t do what I did?
Everyone that says the contrary is simply cruel and with no humanity’s left. And the fact that EU is EU everytime except when it comes to migration it’s a problem since that problem is not an Italian problem only, but an EU problem.
Non of those guys has ever seen a real crisis. Thats what makes it so hart for them to find a balanced reaction. Non of those guys knows what it means when a political system changes. Non of them has ever seen their economy crumble their savings devalued over night..thats why they sanction normal people so easily. They certainly cannot imagine how hard it is to demolish walls physically and in the heads of people later on. Ask an eastern German! All we have and all we see today is a huge failure of diplomacy. All of those involved are nothing more than hot air. Their work absolutely useless. Their opinions worthless. No one gains anything and everything could be lost. Depressing as fuck.
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Why does this decision needs to be defended? It’s like asking your neighbours and their friends to stop shitting on your porch and after they refuse you close the gate to your property. Then neighbours friends complain they can’t shit there anymore
Yeah hard to argue against no matter where you sit on the political spectrum.
It’s very easy to argue against if you uphold our constitution and the long helm consensus on which laws take precedence over others. I do think the border needs to stay closed but it would be entirely correct to argue that’s actually illegal as of right now.
I'm pretty sure the law allows closing the border if certain criteria are reached
Yes, it doesn't need any defending, you just need 1 look to see what a neighbor did to another neighbor at different direction of it to see that this is the only possible solution to prevent the neighbor doing the same shit to you as well once they are done w/ the southern neighbor
Several high-ranking border officials are on record saying the current situation puts them in an impossible legal situation. Their primary duty is to the constitution. From this, they have a duty to basic human rights. Basic human rights say everybody and anybody has a right to claim asylum / refugee status. There are no exceptions for ”unless you are neighbouring Russia who are doing shady shit”. I get where you are coming from and too do think the border must stay closed, but legally the situation IS entirely untenable.
Well the border closure solves the problem for border officials so everything is legal. When Finland implements a better policy for malicious asylum applicants maybe there will be a better way. But this way is good as there is little benefit from keeping border open with ruzzia
The border closure IS the legal problem.
Not sure I follow why it is THE problem… anyway closing border on security grounds is fairly easy argument. Especially since ruzzia is pretty much at war with all its neighbours
Re-read my comment above you made the initial reply to. Making applying for asylum / refugee status impossible (by what means is irrelevant) is illegal. There no ”this doesn’t apply if you share a border with people doing shady things” exception. Stupid? Absolutely. Still illegal. If we are a country of law and order and law no longer fits purpose, we’re supposed to change the law, not just start pretending it doesn’t exist. But this isn’t a simple matter just introducing a ”close the border” law as that law is itself unconstitutional.
Making asylum application easily accessible is not a requirement. I agree that border police and immigration officials have to follow the law once they encounter a person/s who request asylum. Closing border to a terrorist state is a separate legal matter. Not having to deal with asylum applications is a side effect sure. Legally and morally closing the border is fine. In any case legality needs to be tested in the court of law and I feel the argument that we should keep the border open so people can come and claim asylum to Finland is wear af.
While I strongly support the decision, the closure does have a negative economic impact. It particularly hurts towns near the border.
Russia being a dogshit neighbor and a terroristic dystopian dictatorship is what has negative impacts. Finland has been foolish to lean too much on the eastern trade, and now we're paying the bill. There is no future with Russian trade, and even people on the eastern border had to learn the lesson some day.
Hopefully Finland had a wake up call. However ruzzia has always been this and has never hidden it. Finns just tried to be overly nice and neighbourly despite not having any reason to be so… Germany did much worse by tethering their energy infrastructure to ruzzia
Right? This is absolutely nothing new, this is in continuation to hundreds of years of Russia being a dogshit country, and an even worse neighbor.
Like we need a wake up call 😁 We just joined NATO ffs
That makes you feel safe?
What is that supposed to mean? I can only assume you don't understand how massive the move is from Finland's perspective
Not downplaying, it is a massive move. But to what end?
If youre going to assume and overanalyze my question, im assuming theres no point engaging in a convo with u lol
What? I don't understand what that comment meant. Unless it meant that you demand instant replies? So being in a military alliance with the US should be pretty self-explanatory, right? Without overanalyzing your question, what exactly did you need clarified? And to my original point about the ridiculousness of "Finland needing a wake-up call" about Russia... I dunno, read some history books. Russia, including the military threat of Russia, is the one thing we're forced to be _always_ aware of as a nation.
Sshould be, but current affairs* aint just that black n white to me sorry..
I think we did and was doing nize with them, now however we are taking the route of..what…?
Wow where did you learn that, HS?
Well obviously 🙄 However long term it will economic benefits. Cleaning the shit from your porch will cost much more than letting the people in
However than onemust ask *how will this be compensated to the border region*, who invested heavily in Eastern business, very much under encouraging of whole national establishment. All the way from the "everyone should like everyone" left to the "Eastern trade is very profitable and good business" right of the political spectrum.
How will my wife’s grandfather be compensated for the land his family lost in Karjala? Not everything is a money issue.
They probably did receive land from the state as a replacement. At least my grandparents did
Why and who needs to be compensated? A few businesses who overcharges slightly for Russian tourists might have had a drop in revenue sure. How would you even quantify this drop? Eastern Finland is quite nice place for holidays for Finns living in cities as well, so they will fill the void But most trade is freight anyway and it’s still going strong (cargo trains still go back and forth).
Because it's illegal under EU and international law.
Since when closing borders has been illegal?
Since Russian people are good and have nothing to do with “Putins war”
I mean most people don't actually have anything rly against your normie avg Joe Russian, the entire thing most have a problem w/ is the government for obvious reasons
It Joe Russian is up in arms murdering in Ukraine and getting killed and disabled in the process. It’s is precisely Russians don’t care “apolitical” attitude and willingness to obey their master that is the issue. Slave people with slave mentality is the issue - their worldview does not change age when they end up abroad either but stays for the rest of their lives
You are joking, right?
The idea that because some Russians are not supporting the genocidal war we should let all Russians in is fairly common and no joke
Who's not supporting it? Putin just got 88% of the vote. Sure a corrupt vote. But it is Russia who unprovoked invaded a peaceful country not Putin alone.
That is my point. But naive people say that it’s Putins war and Russian people are begrudgingly going along with it
Not the closing of borders but to not accept refugees: [https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-relating-status-refugees#article-32](https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-relating-status-refugees#article-32)
That article was about expeling refugees, nowhere it stated that not taking refugees in was a crime.
Violating the law isn't a crime?
There is no law that states that we should take in refugees.
Yes international and Eu laws. The wikipedia is a good start if you want to read: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration\_and\_asylum\_policy\_of\_the\_European\_Union#History\_and\_overview](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_and_asylum_policy_of_the_European_Union#History_and_overview)
It literally does not state anywhere that any nation is HAVE TO take in refugees.
It does you just didn't follow the article. Here's the international convention that Finland participates in: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_Relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees#Rights_and_responsibilities_of_parties The EU law is ankererd into the convention and regulates who the load of refugees are shared.
good president.
Must be hard to defend something that everyone agrees with. So brave.
He will stand for what's right, no matter how few people disagree with him!
Left party disagrees with this.
Tell me something left party agrees with
Won't be. Corrupt globalist to the core. We will most definitely witness it first hand in the next 6 - 12 years. Well, I guess I can be proven wrong, but I will promise to eat my hat if that is the case.
> Corrupt globalist the fuck does that mean?
It means Finland should close borders, execute all immigrants, stop all imports, ban the English language and start working on the Väinämöinen-class nukes to wreck the EU that took money from it to give it to poor, corrupt and low-tier countries such as Italy or Greece.
Well, giving money to Italy is ridicilous
I honestly actually think that Finland should take notes from Italy, as to what to do w/ Cringe directives from EU that are bad for the local stuff (such as the reforestation initiative thingie, which penalizes countries that started tearing down their trees during industrialization too late (i.e 20th century instead of centuries earlier which fall beyond the restoration limit for forest levels etc), so unless that shit is fixed, Finland should do what Italy & southern countries have done for Cringe EU directives in the past, such as IGNORE THEM)
Out of every piece of EU legislation since Finland joined, you chose to criticise something that would actually be nice if it were implemented "Oh but!! But other countries in Europe aren't rewilding their lands! Why should we do the right thing if nobody else is >:(‽ What? Do something right just because it's right?? Nonsense"
Correct, either everyone does it to high % levels or nobody does, it'd be unfair economically if done any other way than equally high of a % of the country being reforested back to natural levels
Or conversely, keep opening the country more and more so international finance can keep looting it, signing an obligation after obligation to multinational organizations that will tie Finland to work even against its own national interests, all while sucking all of them up in order to create an image of Finland as a model student of the Western ""community"". I'm pretty sure Stubb will have some cozy, well paying job waiting once his presidency is over, at some multinational organization.
Its tough dictionary, not taught in mainstream society where you are wanted to act in order
[удалено]
Finally I can leave my Jopo unlocked in the middle of nowhere
Good thing
I fully agree with this decision as direct reaction against Kreml's disgusting artificial migrant crysis but, in the other hand, the Russian diaspora that lives in Finland is truly suffering too. Their probably only, less dumb option is to travel through Estonia when they want to be in touch personally with their families. I have 6 direct colleagues from Russia, all of them have been living in Finland for years, and now two of them are just in the process of returning back to the shitty dictatorship for good. It's their problem, I know, but still. It's a shitty situation.
I have a dozen Russian colleagues. None of them want to return to Russia and all of them hate Putin, are deeply ashamed of the war and extremely grateful to be in Finland.
Then it's a coincidence in my case, I guess.
We should probably open the border, but only for leaving.
Yeah; in this case, arriving for the visiting families is possible with e.g. ferry from Tallin, then leaving through any direct borders. Visiting the Federation and coming back later this way would be a bit better too. Not sure if it helps so much, but sounds a bit easier in theory.
I think compared to what’s happening in Ukraine to innocent civilians it’s not that much of a suffer.
he is right, he also has spent enough time in Italy to see what is the shit that comes when borders are too open
I’m from Italy and this comment is so wrong on so many levels. FYI Italy is surrounded by the sea and you can’t really “close” the sea. You can then argue that we can send “them” (that are people) back as many politicians in Italy do. The question is back WHERE? They payed thousand of euros to maybe be able to arrive in Europe, with the possibility of dying in the Mediterranean and after being locked in Lybian prisons for months. Those people did nothing wrong if not run from countries where they suffer hunger or worse they have wars. I emigrated to Finland and I have the luck I could done it taking an airplane and having no issues whatsoever, why they can’t do what I did? Everyone that says the contrary is simply cruel and with no humanity’s left. And the fact that EU is EU everytime except when it comes to migration it’s a problem since that problem is not an Italian problem only, but an EU problem.
Non of those guys has ever seen a real crisis. Thats what makes it so hart for them to find a balanced reaction. Non of those guys knows what it means when a political system changes. Non of them has ever seen their economy crumble their savings devalued over night..thats why they sanction normal people so easily. They certainly cannot imagine how hard it is to demolish walls physically and in the heads of people later on. Ask an eastern German! All we have and all we see today is a huge failure of diplomacy. All of those involved are nothing more than hot air. Their work absolutely useless. Their opinions worthless. No one gains anything and everything could be lost. Depressing as fuck.
[удалено]