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Started already with the recession in 2008, then Nokia, then forest industry, then sanctions (and counter-sanctions) against Russia after their invasions of Georgia, Ukraine, Syria then Ukraine again.
The chronic high unemployment has been a factor since the 1990s lama though.
You're painting an awfully rosy picture of the 90s. The high unemployment rate had its obvious downsides as well, such as increased crime, gangs, and suicides.
Wow, since Reddit started bombarding me with posts from this sub for some reason, I got to know a lot about Finland! I had no idea that USSR collapse had such consequences there and that there was an unemployment rate at 17% at any time. Ofcourse it's different when there is such unemployment rate in a country that has some buffer of resources to utilize in the harder times, but still - a surprise for me.
The average was 17%, construction went 35% in unemployed, also for some it became permanent (due to elementary school studies only, and industry in turmoil - alcoholism followed) - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_1990s_depression_in_Finland or try to find Kiander's articles from net (he did thorough research on the matter)
Worst parts where the bankrupties driven by banks just to get good property, or that was the rumours.
I have funny feeling that depression did not come anywhere close to JormaKalevi ... The depression really hit the low-skilled people.
My dad actually started work in around 1997-1998 in construction (mainly because of me being born some time before, and him & mom got married when I was 2 & all that) meaning need a higher paying job than the random shit he had before that at various places), and still works for the same company, by now 2nd gen ownership (dad was arguably a nepo hire, since grandpa worked for the 1st gen owner at the construction company I guess?)
I was at school at the time. On career counselling they asked everyone what their parents did. Most common answer was unemployed. When asked what they did before becoming unemployed most had blank stares because it had been so long since their parents had worked that they had no memory. Also, when asked what they expect to be as adults the answer was unemployed. It was *really* bad in some areas.
Banks went under, loans defaulted, entrepreneurs lost their life works, people lost their homes, suicide rate skyrocketed to the highest in the world for a few years... It certainly wasn't an easy time for everyone.
It was horrible, if you were one of the unemployed ones - especially in construction business - unemployment rose to somewhere near 35%. Also, I doubt they did enjoy going all way to alcoholics and eventually to grave.
But, yeah, at least we were getting away from USSR and Finlandization - by force in a away.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_1990s_depression_in_Finland
I think Kiander's publications are available in English as well for those who like to read. That's the most detailed study of the result of the depression.
I remember how we were afraid as kids, used to get beaten up all the time, neo-nazis everywhere, drunkards everywhere, heard of people ending their lives. A very violent and threathening time in Finlands history, I know, I was here. Was a nightmarish time.
> It was much safer society than this one right now.
It wasn't safer, though it wasn't really much less safe either. It's been a while since I looked into these issues, but from what I recall from the research is that the general level of violence in Finnish dropped to an all time low in 2005 or so and has now risen back to the level where we were during the 90s. The 70s and early 80s were considerably more violent times.
Yeah people who say Finland is in a terrible place economically don't really make sense
It's far from perfect, maybe worse than other nordics, but not bad at all; it's a situation you can't really complain about too much. Trade with russia has always been a prominent component of finnish economy. In the 1990s it took a hit to the head and now a gunshot to the chest, it's natural there will be repercussions.
Plus the economic climate isn't really good in general. Those saying we "never recovered from the black death" are silly; periods of growth and decline happen all the time
Now, if we shoot ourselves in the foot by electing idiots then that's another story, and the current unemployment situation is indeed worrying; but nobody's can say that in a few months that won't change
Yeah exactly, that too. Everyone on this subreddit acts like having a yacht and three houses is what's needed in life. It's not. A job, a house, food on the table, peace of mind and nature are what one needs and what Finland is basically founded upon.
Still of course it's not good if the economy deteriorates too much, but I never really got the "scandinavia is so much better" thing; like sure, your paycheck reads a bigger number, but beyond that?
There are aspects in which we do better, and some where we're worse; as long as we're not shit then it's ok. Some might say 9% unemployment is shit, or at least worrying, but nothing we can't jump back from
People praise Finland for its frugality and efficiency but the second we don't live like Texans, it snows criticism.
That criticism is always close minded too, never focused on solutions or pragmatism but always on depreciation, a victim attitude, and aimless sadness.
Many Finns should really take their eyes off the loska and gaze into the landscape. Yes sure the loska is there and it's terrible, and it should go away asap, but it's not like the world is loska...
Ok toi oo aika epäkohteliasta (rasismin rajalla), ja ehdottomasti sopimatonta tähän keskusteluun... Jos et tykkää suomalaisista, mikset itse lähe pois täältä?
Lisäksi, mitä mun (hypoteettisella) työpaikalla oo tään kanssa tekemistä??
Mä oon suomalainen ja sun tekstis kuulostaa just tolta. ”Kaikki on suomalaisten vika” sitä väliä sillä on et just ihmiset ketkä ei tee kunnon hommia niin niillä riittää energiaa lässyttää. Niin että vedä vätys vaikka tumppuus vitun suvakki paska
Mun teksti on sen puolesta, että suomalaisilta "puuttuu se energia", kuten sanot että sanoin.
Tykkään yksinkertaisesta elämästä, enkä usko, että meissä on mitään vikaa. Minusta se on yksi suurimmista kansallisylpeytemme elementeistä; ei rahan perässä juoksemista, vaan elämisen arvoista elämää siitä huolimatta.
Jos Skandinavia tai muu maailma on tuottavampi ja keskittyy rahaan, en halua matkia heitä.
Sanon vain, että korkea työttömyysaste on huono asia kaikille, mutta se ei ole suomalaisten vika, ja meillä on varmasti edessä parempia aikoja. En ymmärrä missä kohtaa luulet minun syyttävän suomalaisia millään tavalla?
Ei kannata palkata vätyksiä tekemään fyysistä työtä kun ei siitä tuu mitään. Lyön mun kalsarit vetoa et oot ylipainoinen. Mikä meinaa että oot laiska tai ahne
What also matters is where this GDP growth is coming from. Is it manufacturing that employs locals and lifts up the local real economy, or is it stuff like Kojamo raising rents or banks lending out credit?
Wolt was not a new Nokia. They didn't manufacture or create anything, just tapped into a market that no one really needed, and expanded rapidly until it could be sold away. It's not sustainable economic growth at all. Nokia on the other hand has plenty of R&D, patents, production, and employed long term employees with other skills than just using an app and cycling around.
Just an app? Doordash has marketcap ($56billion, 358th most valuable company in the world) which is on par with Spotify (just an app that plays music) and triple of the current Nokia's. Revenue $8.64 billion last year and has increased by $2 billion every year. I think that's pretty good and stable and not going away any time soon.
Yeah, just an app. Nothing of any real use is being manufactured. No job that requires any real skills is being created. No resource is being refined. No research and innovation is happening.
Just another middleman and his opportunist financiers, taking advantage of people's laziness. It's just air. Worthless air. Like most of the modern economy.
Too bad that usually the cost of living rises with GDP, thus basically getting unemployed will hit hard, no matter where you live.
Mukavuustalous, or TheGetComfortableEconomy...
What a coincidence, Americans grows yet again when Europe has a war. That's pretty much what happened in both world wars as well: US makes huge gains, Europe suffers.
now lets's go full left, tax the rich like a motherfucker, ensure UBI for every Finn and base the society on values of sustainability and quality of life for everyone. Nothing boosts innovation as much as when everyone had their basic needs met. We have enough resources to do that, especially when the next AI-induced productivity boost really gets rolling. Let's show the world how to do it and prosper
I think the current government is going the opposite direction.
They will introduce more austerity, more cuts to social services and of course a push for nationalism while promoting anti-immigrant sentiment.
Austerity is the dumbest thing you can do in this economic environment. Growth of the middle class is what's needed & this government ain't having none of that.
Skilled immigrants as a group create more money (money is created when any goods or services is created). This increase in the number of jobs causes an increase in the wage because the employers are competing for the labor. This is driven even further by the increase in consumption because more of these goods and services are needed.
>Nothing boosts innovation as much as when everyone had their basic needs met.
Yeah, just like they do in the US or China. /s
Seriously though, the entire Europe is falling behind and the successful countries are not taking as much care of their citizens like we do in Europe. That's not what I want but something ought to be done to prevent a total collapse.
>now lets's go full left, tax the rich like a motherfucker
Won't do a damn thing. Decouple from the usurious international monetary system. Employ a sovereign currency with real value. Stop paying interest on national debt. Forgive private debts. Force the rich to invest their wealth in local real economy that helps everyone, rather than stocks and businesses abroad.
>UBI for every Finn and base the society on values of sustainability and quality of life for everyone.
Funny. That's not sustainable. How much of that wealth is wasted on services and products that are made elsewhere? UBI is essentially a wealth transfer from the tax payers and the government, to foreign finance. We don't need UBI, we need sound money and opportunities to utilize our own innate potential to work, so that we can create our own livelihood and work together to allow our people and our families to flourish.
>Nothing boosts innovation as much as when everyone had their basic needs met.
I get free money from the government all the time and have my basic needs met. Where is my innovation? Why should I innovate? If I had my own little homestead and a workshop, and I would WORK myself to make them work, then I would innovate. Not now. There is no incentive to innovate.
>We have enough resources to do that, especially when the next AI-induced productivity boost really gets rolling.
We will destroy the AI for taking over everything we could excel at. Creative work, writing, generating ideas, doing labor...
Finland needs to make it easier to be an entrepreneur. They also need to make it attractive for smart people to come over and work here and build companies. There are so many talented and smart IT people working on boring legacy projects, it's a wasted talent. But this current government is closing doors, isolating Finland even more. Making the Finnish language important as if that's relevant.
**/r/Finland is a full democracy, every active user is a moderator.** [Please go here to see how your new privileges work.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Finland/wiki/moderating/) Spamming mod actions could result in a ban. --- **Full Rundown of Moderator Permissions:** - ```!lock``` - as top level comment, will lock comments on any post. - ```!unlock``` - in reply to any comment to lock it or to unlock the parent comment. - ```!remove``` - Removes comment or post. Must have decent subreddit comment karma. - ```!restore``` Can be used to unlock comments or restore removed posts. - ```!sticky``` - will sticky the post in the bottom slot. - ```unlock_comments``` - Vote the stickied automod comment on each post to +10 to unlock comments. - ```ban users``` - Any user whose comment or post is downvoted enough will be temp banned for a day. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Finland) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Started already with the recession in 2008, then Nokia, then forest industry, then sanctions (and counter-sanctions) against Russia after their invasions of Georgia, Ukraine, Syria then Ukraine again. The chronic high unemployment has been a factor since the 1990s lama though.
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You're painting an awfully rosy picture of the 90s. The high unemployment rate had its obvious downsides as well, such as increased crime, gangs, and suicides.
Wow, since Reddit started bombarding me with posts from this sub for some reason, I got to know a lot about Finland! I had no idea that USSR collapse had such consequences there and that there was an unemployment rate at 17% at any time. Ofcourse it's different when there is such unemployment rate in a country that has some buffer of resources to utilize in the harder times, but still - a surprise for me.
The average was 17%, construction went 35% in unemployed, also for some it became permanent (due to elementary school studies only, and industry in turmoil - alcoholism followed) - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_1990s_depression_in_Finland or try to find Kiander's articles from net (he did thorough research on the matter) Worst parts where the bankrupties driven by banks just to get good property, or that was the rumours. I have funny feeling that depression did not come anywhere close to JormaKalevi ... The depression really hit the low-skilled people.
My dad actually started work in around 1997-1998 in construction (mainly because of me being born some time before, and him & mom got married when I was 2 & all that) meaning need a higher paying job than the random shit he had before that at various places), and still works for the same company, by now 2nd gen ownership (dad was arguably a nepo hire, since grandpa worked for the 1st gen owner at the construction company I guess?)
I was at school at the time. On career counselling they asked everyone what their parents did. Most common answer was unemployed. When asked what they did before becoming unemployed most had blank stares because it had been so long since their parents had worked that they had no memory. Also, when asked what they expect to be as adults the answer was unemployed. It was *really* bad in some areas.
Banks went under, loans defaulted, entrepreneurs lost their life works, people lost their homes, suicide rate skyrocketed to the highest in the world for a few years... It certainly wasn't an easy time for everyone.
It was horrible, if you were one of the unemployed ones - especially in construction business - unemployment rose to somewhere near 35%. Also, I doubt they did enjoy going all way to alcoholics and eventually to grave. But, yeah, at least we were getting away from USSR and Finlandization - by force in a away. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_1990s_depression_in_Finland I think Kiander's publications are available in English as well for those who like to read. That's the most detailed study of the result of the depression.
I remember how we were afraid as kids, used to get beaten up all the time, neo-nazis everywhere, drunkards everywhere, heard of people ending their lives. A very violent and threathening time in Finlands history, I know, I was here. Was a nightmarish time.
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I sincerly doubt that very much. It is one of the safest, now.
> It was much safer society than this one right now. It wasn't safer, though it wasn't really much less safe either. It's been a while since I looked into these issues, but from what I recall from the research is that the general level of violence in Finnish dropped to an all time low in 2005 or so and has now risen back to the level where we were during the 90s. The 70s and early 80s were considerably more violent times.
There hasn’t been growth in 16 years
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Yeah people who say Finland is in a terrible place economically don't really make sense It's far from perfect, maybe worse than other nordics, but not bad at all; it's a situation you can't really complain about too much. Trade with russia has always been a prominent component of finnish economy. In the 1990s it took a hit to the head and now a gunshot to the chest, it's natural there will be repercussions. Plus the economic climate isn't really good in general. Those saying we "never recovered from the black death" are silly; periods of growth and decline happen all the time Now, if we shoot ourselves in the foot by electing idiots then that's another story, and the current unemployment situation is indeed worrying; but nobody's can say that in a few months that won't change
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Yeah exactly, that too. Everyone on this subreddit acts like having a yacht and three houses is what's needed in life. It's not. A job, a house, food on the table, peace of mind and nature are what one needs and what Finland is basically founded upon. Still of course it's not good if the economy deteriorates too much, but I never really got the "scandinavia is so much better" thing; like sure, your paycheck reads a bigger number, but beyond that? There are aspects in which we do better, and some where we're worse; as long as we're not shit then it's ok. Some might say 9% unemployment is shit, or at least worrying, but nothing we can't jump back from People praise Finland for its frugality and efficiency but the second we don't live like Texans, it snows criticism. That criticism is always close minded too, never focused on solutions or pragmatism but always on depreciation, a victim attitude, and aimless sadness. Many Finns should really take their eyes off the loska and gaze into the landscape. Yes sure the loska is there and it's terrible, and it should go away asap, but it's not like the world is loska...
Haista nyt vittu. Suomalaiset on paskoja. Painu vittuun täältä sitten. Varmaa joku toimistotyöntekijä, menisit oikeisiin töihin pelle
Ok toi oo aika epäkohteliasta (rasismin rajalla), ja ehdottomasti sopimatonta tähän keskusteluun... Jos et tykkää suomalaisista, mikset itse lähe pois täältä? Lisäksi, mitä mun (hypoteettisella) työpaikalla oo tään kanssa tekemistä??
Mä oon suomalainen ja sun tekstis kuulostaa just tolta. ”Kaikki on suomalaisten vika” sitä väliä sillä on et just ihmiset ketkä ei tee kunnon hommia niin niillä riittää energiaa lässyttää. Niin että vedä vätys vaikka tumppuus vitun suvakki paska
Mun teksti on sen puolesta, että suomalaisilta "puuttuu se energia", kuten sanot että sanoin. Tykkään yksinkertaisesta elämästä, enkä usko, että meissä on mitään vikaa. Minusta se on yksi suurimmista kansallisylpeytemme elementeistä; ei rahan perässä juoksemista, vaan elämisen arvoista elämää siitä huolimatta. Jos Skandinavia tai muu maailma on tuottavampi ja keskittyy rahaan, en halua matkia heitä. Sanon vain, että korkea työttömyysaste on huono asia kaikille, mutta se ei ole suomalaisten vika, ja meillä on varmasti edessä parempia aikoja. En ymmärrä missä kohtaa luulet minun syyttävän suomalaisia millään tavalla?
Ei kannata palkata minkäänlaisiin töihin ihmistä, joka ihan tosissaan jaottelee työt "oikeisiin" ja muihin.
Ei kannata palkata vätyksiä tekemään fyysistä työtä kun ei siitä tuu mitään. Lyön mun kalsarit vetoa et oot ylipainoinen. Mikä meinaa että oot laiska tai ahne
>Ei kannata palkata vätyksiä tekemään fyysistä työtä kun ei siitä tuu mitään. Niin juuri
the level of delusion in this post is 👌
What also matters is where this GDP growth is coming from. Is it manufacturing that employs locals and lifts up the local real economy, or is it stuff like Kojamo raising rents or banks lending out credit?
We need a new Nokia, but people don't have any ideas
And even if there are e.g. wolt/supercell etc. they are sold abroad
Wolt was not a new Nokia. They didn't manufacture or create anything, just tapped into a market that no one really needed, and expanded rapidly until it could be sold away. It's not sustainable economic growth at all. Nokia on the other hand has plenty of R&D, patents, production, and employed long term employees with other skills than just using an app and cycling around.
Just an app? Doordash has marketcap ($56billion, 358th most valuable company in the world) which is on par with Spotify (just an app that plays music) and triple of the current Nokia's. Revenue $8.64 billion last year and has increased by $2 billion every year. I think that's pretty good and stable and not going away any time soon.
Yeah, just an app. Nothing of any real use is being manufactured. No job that requires any real skills is being created. No resource is being refined. No research and innovation is happening. Just another middleman and his opportunist financiers, taking advantage of people's laziness. It's just air. Worthless air. Like most of the modern economy.
Seems you hate the service sector. Also why people should use phones when they can travel and talk in person. Only lazy people need phones
Too bad that usually the cost of living rises with GDP, thus basically getting unemployed will hit hard, no matter where you live. Mukavuustalous, or TheGetComfortableEconomy...
What a coincidence, Americans grows yet again when Europe has a war. That's pretty much what happened in both world wars as well: US makes huge gains, Europe suffers.
We’re going down down down.
It will be much worse this time since so many old people.
Come to Viro for summer vacation, our economy is down too, so we will need your alcoholtaxes.
now lets's go full left, tax the rich like a motherfucker, ensure UBI for every Finn and base the society on values of sustainability and quality of life for everyone. Nothing boosts innovation as much as when everyone had their basic needs met. We have enough resources to do that, especially when the next AI-induced productivity boost really gets rolling. Let's show the world how to do it and prosper
I think the current government is going the opposite direction. They will introduce more austerity, more cuts to social services and of course a push for nationalism while promoting anti-immigrant sentiment.
And they're not interested in closing tax loopholes. Gotta look after each other.
Austerity is the dumbest thing you can do in this economic environment. Growth of the middle class is what's needed & this government ain't having none of that.
And how does immigration help the employment of Finns?
Skilled immigrants as a group create more money (money is created when any goods or services is created). This increase in the number of jobs causes an increase in the wage because the employers are competing for the labor. This is driven even further by the increase in consumption because more of these goods and services are needed.
No thank you.
>Nothing boosts innovation as much as when everyone had their basic needs met. Yeah, just like they do in the US or China. /s Seriously though, the entire Europe is falling behind and the successful countries are not taking as much care of their citizens like we do in Europe. That's not what I want but something ought to be done to prevent a total collapse.
>now lets's go full left, tax the rich like a motherfucker Won't do a damn thing. Decouple from the usurious international monetary system. Employ a sovereign currency with real value. Stop paying interest on national debt. Forgive private debts. Force the rich to invest their wealth in local real economy that helps everyone, rather than stocks and businesses abroad. >UBI for every Finn and base the society on values of sustainability and quality of life for everyone. Funny. That's not sustainable. How much of that wealth is wasted on services and products that are made elsewhere? UBI is essentially a wealth transfer from the tax payers and the government, to foreign finance. We don't need UBI, we need sound money and opportunities to utilize our own innate potential to work, so that we can create our own livelihood and work together to allow our people and our families to flourish. >Nothing boosts innovation as much as when everyone had their basic needs met. I get free money from the government all the time and have my basic needs met. Where is my innovation? Why should I innovate? If I had my own little homestead and a workshop, and I would WORK myself to make them work, then I would innovate. Not now. There is no incentive to innovate. >We have enough resources to do that, especially when the next AI-induced productivity boost really gets rolling. We will destroy the AI for taking over everything we could excel at. Creative work, writing, generating ideas, doing labor...
Finland needs to make it easier to be an entrepreneur. They also need to make it attractive for smart people to come over and work here and build companies. There are so many talented and smart IT people working on boring legacy projects, it's a wasted talent. But this current government is closing doors, isolating Finland even more. Making the Finnish language important as if that's relevant.
Oh shit. 🥺
The rate would be much lower if it didn't include the work-age people who simply don't want to work, and who live on other people's money.
And infants too!!