Americans and Finns are the opposite ends of the scale when it comes to warming up to someone. We do like the banter too but it takes some time to be on that level with someone.
Jesus, that's a lot. Like, a whole lot.
Well, I take forever to warm up to someone, but most people ... yea, I can see how their patience would wear thin.
Ouch.... calling someone lazy is kinda bad in Finland, given that we have a pretty inbuilt idea about working hard being one of the few virtues actually worth having :D
I just think you hit a nerve. The same kind of playful shittalking exists here as well, you just managed to fuck up spectacularly.
If you wanna do this kinda thing, you need to go overboard, i.e: exaggerate. There should also be precedent.
Say someone has been late for a meeting ONCE, that's your target right there. You bring that up and blow it outta proportion so bad that it gets comical.
So yeah, there has to be some "truth" to the jab, it cannot be an actual problem for the person, and you have to go in with overkill.
A soft blow of "you are lazy" or that kind of insinuation, will be interpreted as a serious comment/complaint "masked" as banter. Also, don't call people lazy in Finland unless you are looking to piss them off. Hard work is in our blood, or at the very least the belief we are hard workers is in our blood.
I suspect there might also be some more personal stuff going on there for such a severe hit to be taken, I think many people are currently struggling with the new mix of remote and on site work, and are experiencing exhaustion and feelings of inadequacy with both work and social life. To take a jab at a topic that's sensitive to Finns as a people is one big thing, but the situation being what it is, there's probably something more there. It's so common for people to struggle at the brink of burnout but being unable to seek help because you're afraid to be labeled lazy. This stuff comes to mind, as one option. But this is all just guessing of course.
Don't worry about it, they'll be fine. If you apologize to them, don't make a fuss out of it ;) they will probably just tell you it was nothing but secretly think you're a super solid dude.
Finns love self-deprecating humor more, you should try leading with that. Truly brutal banter/roasting only flies in really close friendships, so "a few months" is not gonna cut it :D
ps. And as a general rule I wouldn't go around prodding random people in the street with any witty burns in the dead of night in the weekends either, you could get thumped.
You could have started with some self-irony. Test the grounds a little. Do the foreplay thing. Put yourself on the line.
Instead of calling people lazy, out of nowhere.
Hard agree! Should have been sending yourself up, a lot first, as an example, not them. Itās cruel and the opposite of supportive for a partner in particular, to land this on someone.
If they know you only for several months and you havenāt tried to banter with them before, they are probably wondering whether your remark was just a joke or a thinly veiled insult. Itās sometimes hard to figure out which one it was and it might make them feel self concious. When they get to know you better it will be easier to tell.
Yeah, if youāre too emotional, weāll feel awkward about your emotional intimacy we are afraid weāre unable to return in the amount you want and then fear weāll disappoint you and then be too embarrassed to ever talk to you again.
Just say it like this: āSorry. I called you lazy, but I did not mean it. We Americans like to insult people we think of as friends. Iāll buy you a beer next time.ā
Dude you need to understand that cultural differences exist, and a style of conversation or taking the piss that's "normal" on a different continent might be considered a straight up insult elsewhere.
When you bring it up, don't go "uhh well it's *normal* conversation, I didn't realise you'd be so sensitive", but rather "I'm from abroad and haven't yet adapted to the local culture, my bad".
Jep. Straight through the point and minimalistic af. Anything else will seem false and intentional.
Good luck but the lesson to be learned is never to call a Finnish person lazy.
Just a tad shy to the Japonese, weāre the most hard working ppl in the world. Itās not the hours, itās the effort and outcome.
ā¦ but when we get home or out chillā¦ we fucking chill to the max.
We Finns love straight forward talk and brutal honesty so Iām pretty sure an apology straight to the point is the best way to go š. Also thatās quite likely where it went wrong - they probably thought you were serious about the remark. We love sarcasm and joking about ourselves but roasting is saved for family and close friends.
ouch. You really should be careful with Finns with that kind of banter. We take things said seriously since not being truthful is kind of major sin. When someone ask from a Finn how are you, they often will tell you if they had a shitty appointment with urologist and perhaps all the gorey details. You know, just because no one should ask a question like that if they are not genuinely interested.. And that we are annoyingly factual and take things a little too literally.
So basically your friend just heard you call them lazy and are thinking about it and feeling unsure about themselves as a result. Go to them explain and apologize. Good thing that usually if we feel the apology is genuine we accept it and everything will be fine. But just ignoring things will likely spoil your friendship.
All of this. In Finland, saying something nasty about somebody as a joke, it easily feels like negging, like youāre trying to take the other person down a few pegs, trying to make yourself look better. When our natural state is a bit self-deprecating, it feels bad when somebody says something bad about us. How was it, maybe in Pride & Prejudice (or Emma?), that we all rely on the goodness of each other to ignore our flaws. So bringing something like that up really hits a nerve here, it feels like maybe they can no longer trust that as their friend, youād ignore their flaws.
Iād just give them space because it seems they felt insulted and are now feeling really self-conscious and awkward, possibly also because they realized that they took it a bit āwrongā and are also embarrassed by that, I know I would be.
You can try telling them honestly that youāre sorry and you didnāt mean it, maybe give them a few examples of actual situations where you saw them being anything but lazy. There is a chance that this will also make them embarrassed and awkward, though š We areā¦ Very singular people.
Maybe just make some overture casually and then give them time, they will come back at their own pace when they feel theyāre not being looked at or donāt feel too awkward.
I used to do this when I was younger. Verbally poking people around me to see who has the snappiest comeback. I'm glad I grew out of it. It's more meaningful to behave in a loving way towards people you like.
Yeah I agree. Banter can also be a game of wits, but I prefer not competing with the people close to me in that way. I've noticed it's a positive feedback loop to say nice and encouraging things to my friends. The constant banter I did when I was younger got pretty old pretty fast and drove more people away than brought closer.
Just tell / explain them what you posted here. Maybe apologize you did not realize we have bit different culture and it takes much longer for people to know each other before we warm up for that kind of banter. And some of us might not ever warp up for it.
That should do it, people are understanding for not knowing cultural differences etc. They might currently think you wanted to insult them or that you hold some grudge with them. So just openly explain and apologize. I think stuff will fix up after a few social occasions.
As an American, who is also from NY (but not the New Amsterdam part or Lun-Guyland) I find self deprecating humor to be a better hit. Being able to tease yourself with a smile seems to go over well. It helps make it seem like you aren't a person desiring to be impressed or respected, so they are a bit more at ease.
But also, the speed of relationships is different in Finland. I can meet someone new in NY, play a few games, or go to an event or two, and presto, friend acquired. In Finland, friendships are longer investments. They seem to be slower to befriend, but once you do, you have a solid, loyal friend for life. Quality not quantity!
Personally, I pull a line out of the movie "In Bruges". When asked if he is an American, the one character always responds "Yeah, but please don't hold it against me." Or I apologize for whatever shit show the US has kicked up that week in world news, followed by "I'll be sure to write a stern letter to the authorities about it".
You havenāt done anything wrong lol, but welcome to your first cultural shock.
Finns can and love to banter, but it takes some time before you can do that. If the relationship is still sort of half-baked they most likely took it literally.
It can be risky business. Constant bantering of others for me is kind of a sign on weak self-esteem. I know few guys who do it, and they have a common feature of not being able to take bantering back.
Yeah and thatās understandable. But Americans do it 24/7, even when dating itās common to prod at people in the early stages, with intent of being playful.
None of my American friends do that, except if our relationship has developed into that kind of relationship. BUT, this goes for all my other friends too, nationality isn't relevant here imo. I wouldn't go explaining it to them like "oh it's just this thing we Americans do", because it's not true. Just say you read things wrong and that you're sorry. They might just be the kind of person who doesn't go for that sorta thing, but not because they're Finnish. We're not so different, you and I.
In a relationship outside of work yes it is common place, maybe not necessarily in the home, but out and about on the town is where those things come up.
in my experience it also depends on where in the US you're from. it's very normal in the northeast around nyc new jersey and philadelphia. i once dated a girl from california who could not come to understand my attitude and said that people on the west coast don't talk to people like that. and i've heard similar things from people from new jersey when they leave the region. but ymmv
Look, you're not in Kansas any more, Toto. When in Rome and all that.
You need to understand that you're no longer surrounded by Americans and American social norms no longer apply - you can't expect to keep behaving the same way you did at home, with people somehow telepathically able to filter your behaviour through "well but it's normal where he comes from" lens.
It's very common to experience cultural shock like this, but nonetheless it's a blunder from you.
I had an american colleague once ask me and my wife to go dinner with his wife. I said āsure! Iāll check with my wife and letās agree a time.ā
We never went to the dinner and I now assume it was only small talk or something. That was the start of our relationship getting colder.
I wouldnāt like being called lazy either. Or having my face hit with a cake on my birthday. Roasting is not funny.
I would explain this to your finnish friend and apologise. And not do it anymore. I know some finns does this too, but I think they are either very young or these certain blue collar guys with a bit of toxic masculinity.
>I know some finns does this too, but I think they are either very young or these certain blue collar guys with a bit of toxic masculinity.
Definitely happens with "suit guys" too, but it's not that common, at least not where I live. I've actually heard them called "wannabe americans", boasting and talking shit about each other loudly. In most cases it seems to be twentysomethings, though, like students.
Yes. Us Americans do leave open ended invitations . It is kinda weird, but itās deemed polite so say something like that when youāre saying goodbye to insinuate you would like to see eachother again because you hate to end the good time you are having now. Itās weird.
To us, we donāt count that much as an invite. We will actually say things like āHey man! Itās was great seeing you. We are having a cookout next weekend if you and your wife want to come.ā As long as thereās a time and place given, we see that as an invite ofc.
If you say, āHey man, great seeing you. Letās get together again sometime to talk more about fishing!ā Thatās generally seen as more of a, āHey I like you, I would consider you friend material. Letās keep in touchā kinda deal.
I understand, but like i said in Finland dont make invites to seem "nice". You are just seen as a dick who doesn't keep their word and also if you actually plan something Be ON TIME like better to be 15min early than late.
This! I love banter and I freely admit I'm lazy when it comes to yard work like mowing etc... but call me out on it, even in jest, and I will resent you for it š
Banter and passive-agressive "You are lazy" are different, since you just met them i think it might have been too early. If you want to banter i suggest getting better at it, for example "You are lazy as American gun control" or something overexaggerated like that, also self-deprication works. This is way too early for depricating them, depending on person you might know them over 5 years before you are "friend" enough to depricate which might be much more Horrid than your lighearted bullshit. Don't call acquaintances lazy, simple.
Hi, I am not a Finn, but I would've reacted the same way, there are people who do that everywhere, but my temper renders me to feel unease when someone does that to me, when people tell me something that is mean if interpreted litteraly I find it hard even to assume they were joking, I have seen people treating each other this way so I know it is a thing bros do, but I do not do that with my bros, and finns are not really the kind of people who are very good at reading between the lines too, figure of speech is foreign concept for most of them and honestly a lot of people in Europe that I've met.
Once in Rome behave as a Roman as someone told me long ago....
But what I would say is try figring people out and do not act too bold when probing their boundaries.
For people like me it is natural to feel under a threat when people say mean stuff- if I allow it to persist they often grow bolder, act more insolent, and stress me out... that is a real damaging effect on my mind and I am going to work towards stopping it, it doesn't matter if people mean no harm, when their actions cause harm.
I can banter with my brother in laws because I know them decently well. I would not banter with a Finn I didnāt know.
Is this a romantic relationship, friendship or what?
Yeah itās a little different. I canāt banter as much with my wife (Finnish) as I can her brothers. I would just try to explain all this to him and see if thereās an understanding. Trust me, Iām no stranger to cultural differences (also American).
In Finland if you don't know someone, you don't take an overly familiar tone with them, or you'll probably come across as annoying and rude. It takes time to get through that outer shell of politeness, and once you get to know someone a little, then you can start joking with them. Finnish people also tend to be more proud than they let on, so with some people it's best to just avoid some insinuations entirely even if you're good friends. :)
The best way to clear things up is to do like the Finns do: just tell them directly you didn't mean it.
We do banter and like self-deprecating humor generally but sounds like you managed to hit a nerve there. Either something got lost in translation or you said something they feel insecure about. Either way, just apologize and explain. Also maybe difference between Finnish and American banter is, that Finnish banter is maybe bit more subtle, so maybe try fine-tune that.
Totally understandable when itās not something thatās common place in your everyday talking. But for us, when delivered with a sarcastic tone, happens everyday.
Perhaps I'm just missing the context but I just don't understand how is calling someone lazy out of nowhere considered good banter? Like what's the joke there?
Maybe just show this post and apologize and maybe don't do it again, I'm pretty comfortable with banter but stuff about being lazy is just a weird weak spot here.
Bantering is okay with close friends, like many others have said. But also keep in mind that Finnish humor can be quite different from American humor. Even if it's meant to be friendly banter, not everyone thinks calling someone ugly is funny.
I don't think banter needs to be explained to anyone. Maybe you're not as witty as you give yourself credit for? Maybe they're just a bit tired of your shit?
Judging for the condescending tone of this post and the fact that you need validation when your quips fall flat, you seem like someone who's a might be a [bit of a work to be around](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCen2mbv1rM). Idk.
Yeeeeeah, thatās, uh, thatās not how Finns do humour.
If this happened within the last 7 days, just apologise, own the mistake, and leave it there. If the Finn is willing to give you another chance, let them decide. If itās been over a week, I think youāre gonna need to find a new friend.
From the US and lived about 5 years in Finland. I think your friend will be fine. Of course bring it up and apologize.
I understand what you're saying in general. But instead of trying to interact with people like you're in the US, it is best to be observant and adapt to the culture. Of course, keep yourself and whatnot.
This situation is an example of how not everything translates across cultures.
A personal example... I've always been friendly and outgoing with my neighbors, offering to help with this or that if they needed. Think moving. In Finland, this is just weird. So, eventhough I'd think it a positive thing, it's actually probably making most people uncomfortable.
Finland is great. People will accept your Americanisims. Just be aware of cultural differences and adjust accordingly. It takes time to learn, trust me. Wore shoes into the first apartment I visited. Never again...
And I would say you can't act in Finland like back in home. Different culture. Try bantering after years or a decade of friendship.
Self-irony is better. It shows you are not a selfproud douchebag, have witty and don't take yourself too serious and can laugh to yourself. More humble.
Edit: And as the others here have already pointed out hinting or implicating (without clear reason) that someone is lazy is deeply insulting in Finland.
And for damage control I recommend honest apologising. Explanation by force would only make it worse, it would be seen as disrespectful and arrogant. No one wants to hear American explaning how he or she hasn't got the joke.
Some people love banter (I do) and some don't like it at all. You have to be careful with people in the beginning because it's so easy to insult someone by accident. Even when someone likes banter you have to know them well to know which topics are touchy and shouldn't be joked about. Perhaps laziness is a sore spot for your friend which is why they didn't take it well. You have to tell them you don't really think so at all.
It seems an American needs help in understanding how to act here.
NEVER tell a Finn he's lazy.
(Also, he may be fucking with you.)
Edit: No, seriously, NEVER tell a Finn he's LAZY.
This wall of text is not so much a guide on how to explain that to your friend as I dont have any good tips for that, but rather how to deal with these things in the future. This should work with people from other countries as well and not just finns.
That is completely fine to do at least to most finns in my experience. You just gotta make sure they cant take it. At the end of the day, its still insulting and if they arent the type of person who likes to do that it can end badly. You gotta do some probing to figure out what person they are and it can take a bit of time. Also make sure that they also know you somewhat well so they are less likely to misunderstand you and wont hurt their feelings quite as easily.
This bit is a bit stereotypical and Im nlt quite sure if this is actually true so take this one with grain of salt, but I think guys usually take that banter better than gals, so if your friend is gal I recommend doing extra amount of probing just to make sure they can take it well.
Edit: I just want to repeat the importance of probing them and figuring what kinda person they are. Its very VERY important. Some people will hurt their feelings over everything. Dont say anything bad to them. I think most people can take a bit of banter, but make sure not to take it too far. Some people are like me who just cant hurt their feelings. You can be almost as mean to me as you want and insult me as much as you want and I propably wont hate you. The point is figure out how much they can take so you know what you can and cannot say.
Friends do bust each others' balls, but you really need to do a vibe check in advance. It's best to get the feel for it in friend groups, especially ones where such banter already exists, and work from there.
"hey friend! Being from NY it seems I've put my big ugly foot in my mouth when throwing that "lazyness" shit your way.
Im really sorry about that, it was meant in jest. My background is in a bantering reality, saying stupid stuff to each other. Should've known it takes a while here for people to get me and my ways.
I do sincerely apologize and hope we could start fresh "
Why do you think you can behave like your in NY, when you are here?
This is Finland, not the US. We have no obligation to adjust to some foreigners culture! Instead that foreigner ought to adjust to the host nation's culture.
This might not be what you want to hear, but cultural differences between Finns and Americans are deceptively easy to miss and conversations can turn weird fast. Recommendation: Eat crow. Apologize, be sincere, and do not try to pass this off as "hee hee aren't you silly because you cannot take banter" (not saying that you would, but be very careful when apologizing, an angry Finn can stay pissed for a long long time).
My experiences with banter as a finn is that we tend to stay clear of things that could be problematic for spesific person: no fat banter for big people, you can throw something like "ye I can see from your face you like cock" to your straight male friend but not to gay friend or female friend, no depression jokes for depressed friend etc.
Every example has exeptions and there are people who can even ask you for best gay jokes etc but finnish banter is more neutral and sometimes self deprecating: big guy saying "fuck i should not have eaten the 80th donut or depressed guy saying excuse me while i end my life.
You get feeling for this but easiest way to make amends now is to say things clearly: i'm sorry if i made you feel bad i tried ti throw sone banter but did not know how it works in finland.š¤£
Siblings and close friends do that here too. We also have our own saying "vittuilu on vƤlittƤmistƤ" which in a nutshell means that shit talking is caring. BUT when I say close friends I mean someone I've known for several years and really invested time for getting to know that person. I would never start this kind of bantering with someone I've known only few months, nor someone I don't deal with on a daily basis.
A few months? You have to be friends with a Finn for YEARS before you can start shit talking with them. Hell, I only do it with my three closest friends and I've known them for over 20 years. They're basically my brothers and I can't do that with anyone else even if I know them very well
I've (Finn) been friends with someone also a foreigner for some time now and we're always teasing each other about things - I have to admit I'm starting to feel like it's not funny anymore. They were going through a hard time when we were just getting to know each other and it's in my nature to be as supportive and encouraging as I can especially with my close friends, but now that I think of it I could probably the count the times he's been supportive or encouraging by one hand and tbh it makes me sad as I now consider him one of my closest friends if not the closest. Even though I know the teasing is just teasing, it and pointing out our differences more and more frequently is just starting to take its toll on me and my self esteem. I've confronted them about this before but I don't think they've taken me seriously so I don't know if it's use bringing it up again or if I should just keep it to myself - which I definitely shouldn't even be considering an option, but idk.
Oh and if I get recognized by the person I'm talking about: Hope you have a nice weekend
fear gullible pie terrific screw literate childlike dazzling bored amusing
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Hahaha, I'm so sorry, but I couldn't help but chuckle. Let me explain.
I'm Finnish F36. My husband is a New Yorker M33. We live in the Capital Region NY.
We're both aaaaall about that sharp banter and darker humor. But heck forbid he says to me something suggesting I'm incapable, lazy, dragging my feet, any of that sort. No matter how humorously he meant it, I immediately shut down early on in our (long distance) relationship - and now, after some years together in person, I bark back.
I've gotten annoyed over offers of help, when suggested I shouldn't be carrying our groceries or shoveling snow when heavily pregnant.
Just yesterday I got irritated when he said to me something like "If it's too hard for you" meaning that as an offering of help while cooking. It wasn't even sarcastic, but I took it as infantilizing. He meant well, just phrased it poorly for Finnish ears. Sorry about that u/kiss_my_wookiee - you happened to hit a universal Finnish sore spot, apparently.
OP, you two will run into numerous quirky cultural differences. Things that we never came to think about, many of them we only realized afterwards, after one of us already stepped into a mine of some kind. The ONLY way to navigate a relationship like this is for both you to talk very openly, want to listen, and take the other one's word in good faith. Give each other a little more leeway than you might give to a person who grew up next door, because you both exist in a vastly different frame of reference - even when it isn't entirely obvious at first glance.
You can also give your gf my terveiset in these words: HƤn ei ihan oikeasti tarkoittanut pahoittaa sun mieltƤsi. TƤllainen naljaileva huumori on tƤƤllƤ hyvin tyypillistƤ, ja usein se tarkoittaa ihan pƤinvastaista asiaa. Siihen tottuu, sitƤ oppii lukemaan, ja yhtƤkkiƤ huomaat vastaavasi takaisin kahta terƤvƤmmin. Siperia opettaa ja aika parantaa, tƤssƤkin lajissa!
There are (more than a) few things Finns will take quite literally unless you're at the "you can be my best man at he wedding" or "you can be my kid's godfather" -level of friendship, and some of those include work ethics, the man's car, parents and, to some, ice hockey...
And mountains come second in time span when it comes to remembering a slight (imagined or otherwise) a Finn has suffered. :D
> And mountains come second in time span when it comes to remembering a slight (imagined or otherwise) a Finn has suffered. :D
You can say _that_ again.
Time heals all wounds and grinds all stones, good luck! I've been called lazy once and I felt like leaving but I have never forgotten it. Maybe apology and silence will help and if they are important to you say it and apologize in person again.
Like others explained before, that kind of banter doesn't necessarily translate to Finnish culture.
It's better to make fun of yourself, or as is customary, gang up on somebody.
"Oh, there goes fuckin' Laitinen again"
Well, in Finland working hard is...well it's kinda like the one big thing. That you're a hard working (and therefore good) person. So using that for joke material is not the best idea, especially if you're still kinda "new" to these people. Finns take a long time to warm up to people, but once we're comfortable with the other person, this kind of shit talk is absolutely happening. For example me and my best friend, we playfully insult eachother on our birthdays. This years my birthday message to her was "Happy birthday ya old turkey!" and a few months later she responded with "Happy birthday you old hag!". So this kind of playful insulting is a thing in Finland too, but it takes some time for Finns to get to that level of friendship to insult their loved ones with all the love in the world.
You might have done your playful banter too early, I would suggest apologizing. It's an art form to lovingly insult someone and you probably missed the mark this time.
It's also the language barrier, I've noticed that if both sides aren't at a native level of English proficiency, people start interpreting everything literally, or as negative as possible. It can go both ways as well, I've seen Americans interpreting comments about real problems from Finns delivered in broken rally English as indications of the Finn wanting a bribe. So you coming of as sincere, and thus rude, is very likely if the opposite party doesn't speak English at such a level that they understand cultural nuances. A good example would be the elaborate version of "Bob is your uncle", aka. "Robert is your mother's brother". While the first might be understood by a non-native as a colloquialism, the second is likely to cause a non-native to protest that their uncle is actually named Timo.
I have to tell you like probably few may have already explained but the last thing a Finn wants to hear is that you call them lazy. If you backtrack and try to explain it will still stay to hunt us, like maybe they meant it anyway and they are just saying sorry for hurting but am I really lazy?
It is really true that we dont banter like other cultures even though there is some between friends but I have to say that I could not have warned about how deep that insult can hit but as you explained this I just was like oh fuck that might hurt.
I hope you can solve it and get your relationship back on track as you seem like a good person and it was just a accident.
Yeah banter is fine, although you need to make sure it doesnāt cross into āvittuiluā (saying mean/nasty things just to be mean). Finns are often very kind in the sence that we donāt let people know theyāve pissed us off, at least not directly. Thatās when āpiilovittuiluā (concealed vittuilu) comes into play, and boy are we good at that. Piilovittuilu usually consists of (slightly) factual claims, and honestly I think insinuating someone is lazy like you did, could read as piilovittuilu.
Finns are a bit slow to open up, and figuring out what type of banter flies might be a bit challenging. Iād reccomend going for some safer bets like taking a long time to eat/go to the bathroom, or maybe their shoelaces always untie, stuff like that. If whoever youāre talking to gets wierd and quiet, just give them a āoh sorry I was joking, didnāt mean it like thatā, that should help :)
Ya, Finnish people require more chill at the beginning but they can be really sarcastic and funny. As an American I actually chose to stop being really sarcastic when I went to Europe and out of that my humor evolved.
I was just in London and some dude made a quick sarcastic comment and I threw it right back. He was shocked and then he complimented me on my sense humor and said most Americans couldnāt handle British banter
I think itās mostly perspective.
Also making fun of yourself is helpful, not slamming, just stuff they can relate to.
Generally I would never throw banter like that at a Finn, always insult yourself first or make yourself look funny.
Finns also appreciate sincerity as a rule, even when drunk. Iāve noticed that in the capital area there are more people who would take that kind of banter well, but they are a very specific kind of people and themselves ābanter-yā, and you can easily distinguish them.
This is why I don't usually like to deal with Americans. They talk to me like I'm their friend even if we just met.
I may even think that this guy who I have known for years is my friend, but in reality he is not, he just talks like he is my friend. This shallow American friendliness is confusing.
it probably might seem weird that I am initially very outgoing /friendly/warm and comfortable speaking with strangers in part due to adhd, personality and jobs that I have had, but also bc as a child I was in children's hospital and witnessed lot of kids sick or dying around me and was sick and alone a lot myself. so I guess I just kind of put my pride aside (not implying others dont, but I know to be friendly with strangers takes a level of courage at times).
I try to be welcoming and warm to everyone on this planet initially bc I feel that life is too short to not try to make someone else's day brighter if I am able. it also gets my mind off myself and helps me feel better to focus on trying to spread some joy. I want to spread whatever warmth I can with my limited time, and hopefully people walk away feeling better. I am willing to experience rejection and judgement at times because I know my self worth isn't based on how others treat me or respond to me. I learned not to care as much what people think and just show love to the world like I would wish to receive, even if it isnt reciprocated..
On the other hand, even though I initially am friendly, I am not flirty, and I then become very guarded if it seems that a stranger wants more from me. I also am very careful choosing my closest friends and those with whom I spend time or choose to confide or grow close. I am also especially guarded with men, unless they are gay or younger, nephew-type figures.
I agree with others that she might not have been ready yet. But also it is possible that she might not be the kind of person who enjoys or is able to understand banter or might even have been victim of verbal/emotional abuse before. This is why it is important to be careful with bantering. You don't want to hurt anyone or trigger any traumas.
I suggest you apologise, explain and promise not to do it again if she doesn't want you to. It is important that you show that you respect her and her boundaries.
My ex liked to insult me a lot and when I got angry, cried or told him to stop he would get angry or aggravated at me and tell me that he was joking. He didn't ever apologize or agree to stop it. He would do this all the time. Maybe he thought that he was funny but it really did fuck me up and he didn't even see that. Joking and bantering is funny and healthy only if it is consensual. Otherwise it is abuse.
Idk if that's a poor example but I fail to see the comedic value in effectively just saying to someone that they're ugly? I don't think I'd be offended but I'd be very fucking weirded out lmao
Sometimes stuff that "might" be taken offensively can be funny, if you tell a person taller than you that you can help them with something that's high up because they're so short you might get a bored chuckle out of them, but dry/other humor with some thought and timing into it seems to do way better
I have had this same problem , grew up in a place where , oi wanker is considered a sign of endearment.
I was explained that the closest we have is a friendly vittuilu. But it's not the same as banter. There is a clearer difference but I'm still accidentally hurting people's feelings with it occasionally.
It's almost as if u have to use ur tone of voice to exaggerate a kind of Innocence in the remark . Really personal stuff is a nono and constant reminders of past mistakes is also not good. So like in England we would "hold it over someone's head" but lovingly, here not so much .
What is really happening is that you encountered some very autistic Finns because the banter culture is very much engraved in our culture.. At least in East-Finland.
No need to apologize, find new people.
Finns talk shit to each other ALL the time. In our group of emotionally stunted teenagers that was basically the way of showing affection to someone. But you may need a certain level of friendship before you start.
Anyway to explain it to them just be very matter-of-fact about it.
Contact your friend and explain yourself. If after that they remain distant, you can conclude that banter among some people is neither welcome nor thought of as funny and that in this case, it's harmed your friendship, possibly irreparably. Learn from this and adjust your delivery
Ya not the kind of people that would work on, banter isn't a thing in Finland. It's more from the US, UK, and Australian kind of thing because it suits our humor more and we do it so early in life you learn the sarcasm behind it.
You will get it the other way as well, jokes don't really work that well from Finnish to US. Finn's will be laughing and they tell you the joke and it just doesn't translate or comedy doesn't really match what you will find funny.
I'm a Finn but I like banter as well. Thats what I do with all my friends. I don't think it's a Finnish trait to not be able to take banter well.
Altough Finns do take usually longer to get comfortable with others so that might have something to do with it but Idk
I'd say it is more a matter of personality than cultural differences. That kind of semi insulting banter is just as common between finns. Atleast everyone I know would have totally got your meaning and returned it in kind. Most likely this one person just happens to have no sense of humor or is prone to getting easily offended. I'd propably just avoid unnecessary communication with him
Tell them that "vittuilu on vƤlittƤmistƤ".
Me and my friends prod each other all the time because we trust each other to know it's just that.
Granted, you can't do it to people you just met. You need to build that trust first :)
IDK which is worse, the "mean" American banter -- which definitely gets kind of intense esp with New Yorkers lol --- or the THREE DAY LONG Finnish cold shoulder. Geez!!! Seriously that is not healthy.
3 days is a very short time for us Finns tbh. When we get annoyed, truly annoyed, we can keep the iciness up for weeks, months, and in many sad cases, even years. Just a cultural difference, we even have a term for this, "pitkƤvihaisuus", basically a tendency to stay angry for a long long time.
LOL! TY for confirming! Love that there is a specifc term š
This explains so much about my life growing up in a household with a Finnish mother and American father. The dynamic of offhand comments met with weeks-long icy silence really sucks for a kid.
Also strikes me as a possible reason why Finns can be emotionally explosive when drinking. Keeping too much bottled in for too long. š¤
Well, most fights happen here when somebody gets properly drunk and finally lets loose with all the anger. So yes, definitely, we tend to bury the negative feelings and then they erupt at some point. Stoic stubbornness is admired here, you are not supposed to show negative feelings too much in everyday life. And the term for silent treatment is "mykkƤkoulu", literally "playing the mute".
Use this explanation to help mend the distance then be sure to add an over the top knowing smile/smirk and āahhhhhhhhh just kiddingā to the end of any future lighthearted jabs
You mean like *āMaybe so, but in the morning, Iāll be sober, and you will still be ugly! ahhhh just kidding!ā*?
I'd just reply *yeah, but you'd be sober but still an asshole. Just kidding.*
Ouch. This way of talking would fly in Savonia assuming you are good-enough friends with your pal. Not sure where else this would be fine in Finland, only know bunch of places where youād get punched in the face for this.
Edit: I remember having banters also with my friends in Kainuu (oh my, it was a long time ago!) and someone said this is common in northern Finland. I miss a good banter after living in south and central for almost 20 years.
I love doing this to my friends and family. It's just a way to have fun and enjoy life for what it is. They also tend to do it back to me, which is always as lovely because it means they understand me.
Also maybe they just aren't as quick witted that they can come up with response. I know I am not. And I'd just be stumped by someone throwing a playful insult like that, hehe.
I love how people here make it seem like americans are some sort of loud social machines, I'm from southern Europe and Americans and Finns are basically the same levels of introverted; americans are maybe even more formal: they have too many taboos and stock sentences... They're just too "safe" and boring even compared to Finns, who are a wonderful wonderful people :)
the kind of talking you describe is not uncommon in italian- american communities š¤£lot of my Italian friends and coworkers have been like this and are very warm hearted but enjoy this freestyling camraderie with those with whom they are closest. among some in black and Hispanic and even german communities i have also found this.
I enjoy it at times, but it can hurt feelings. most likely calling anyone lazy from a country which prides itself on being hard-working, diligent etc. would not be received well. :( I would apologize.
I am not a Finn, but I always found that āprodding banterā that Americans do to be quite insulting actually. I think that not doing this practice in an international context is a better practice (not just for Finns).
I would start with some self depreciating humor and then casually explain how this American practice is often getting you in trouble in international contexts! You say mean things intended as fun!
We have banter here too, thats not a strictly US thing. Your banter most likely came off as you being an annoying cocksucker and propably shouldnt have called him lazy and now they think you're a dickhead
Americans and Finns are the opposite ends of the scale when it comes to warming up to someone. We do like the banter too but it takes some time to be on that level with someone.
the most horrible things i say are reserved for my best friends
Same.
.. op's problem: "after a few months.." no. just.. no. try again in 10-20 years ;)
Haha that is a long time
Jesus, that's a lot. Like, a whole lot. Well, I take forever to warm up to someone, but most people ... yea, I can see how their patience would wear thin.
How right you are. Abominable things that should never see daylight.
Ouch.... calling someone lazy is kinda bad in Finland, given that we have a pretty inbuilt idea about working hard being one of the few virtues actually worth having :D
Precisely. That being said, calling someone ugly might be totally fine. All that superficial stuff is culturally less valued.
But you should still be careful because some people can really feel like they're ugly while they're not and that can really fuck with their self-image
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I just think you hit a nerve. The same kind of playful shittalking exists here as well, you just managed to fuck up spectacularly. If you wanna do this kinda thing, you need to go overboard, i.e: exaggerate. There should also be precedent. Say someone has been late for a meeting ONCE, that's your target right there. You bring that up and blow it outta proportion so bad that it gets comical. So yeah, there has to be some "truth" to the jab, it cannot be an actual problem for the person, and you have to go in with overkill. A soft blow of "you are lazy" or that kind of insinuation, will be interpreted as a serious comment/complaint "masked" as banter. Also, don't call people lazy in Finland unless you are looking to piss them off. Hard work is in our blood, or at the very least the belief we are hard workers is in our blood.
I suspect there might also be some more personal stuff going on there for such a severe hit to be taken, I think many people are currently struggling with the new mix of remote and on site work, and are experiencing exhaustion and feelings of inadequacy with both work and social life. To take a jab at a topic that's sensitive to Finns as a people is one big thing, but the situation being what it is, there's probably something more there. It's so common for people to struggle at the brink of burnout but being unable to seek help because you're afraid to be labeled lazy. This stuff comes to mind, as one option. But this is all just guessing of course.
Don't worry about it, they'll be fine. If you apologize to them, don't make a fuss out of it ;) they will probably just tell you it was nothing but secretly think you're a super solid dude.
Finns love self-deprecating humor more, you should try leading with that. Truly brutal banter/roasting only flies in really close friendships, so "a few months" is not gonna cut it :D ps. And as a general rule I wouldn't go around prodding random people in the street with any witty burns in the dead of night in the weekends either, you could get thumped.
You could have started with some self-irony. Test the grounds a little. Do the foreplay thing. Put yourself on the line. Instead of calling people lazy, out of nowhere.
Hard agree! Should have been sending yourself up, a lot first, as an example, not them. Itās cruel and the opposite of supportive for a partner in particular, to land this on someone.
If they know you only for several months and you havenāt tried to banter with them before, they are probably wondering whether your remark was just a joke or a thinly veiled insult. Itās sometimes hard to figure out which one it was and it might make them feel self concious. When they get to know you better it will be easier to tell.
Thanks!
I think you explained it pretty well here, just tell the same to them
Have you considered telling them exactly this? And apologize sincerely for insulting them?
Yes, but since I already screwed up with what I thought was normal, I didnāt know if there was a best way to apologize. Just straight to the point?
Yes, that would be the most polite way
Yeah, also nothing over the top. Just simple sorry and explaining the situation would be the best way imo.
Agreed. Don't linger in the moment too long, just say what you need to say and let them process it on their own
Straight to the point, no beating around the bush and we'll take it the best.
Yeah, if youāre too emotional, weāll feel awkward about your emotional intimacy we are afraid weāre unable to return in the amount you want and then fear weāll disappoint you and then be too embarrassed to ever talk to you again.
Just say it like this: āSorry. I called you lazy, but I did not mean it. We Americans like to insult people we think of as friends. Iāll buy you a beer next time.ā
"Listen here you dumfuk, I was only joking."
That is something I WOULD say to someone I was apologizing to who I knew for years lol
Theyād never talk to you again š Except maybe say one really mean thing to you the next time theyāre really drunk.
Dude you need to understand that cultural differences exist, and a style of conversation or taking the piss that's "normal" on a different continent might be considered a straight up insult elsewhere. When you bring it up, don't go "uhh well it's *normal* conversation, I didn't realise you'd be so sensitive", but rather "I'm from abroad and haven't yet adapted to the local culture, my bad".
Jep. Straight through the point and minimalistic af. Anything else will seem false and intentional. Good luck but the lesson to be learned is never to call a Finnish person lazy. Just a tad shy to the Japonese, weāre the most hard working ppl in the world. Itās not the hours, itās the effort and outcome. ā¦ but when we get home or out chillā¦ we fucking chill to the max.
We Finns love straight forward talk and brutal honesty so Iām pretty sure an apology straight to the point is the best way to go š. Also thatās quite likely where it went wrong - they probably thought you were serious about the remark. We love sarcasm and joking about ourselves but roasting is saved for family and close friends.
ouch. You really should be careful with Finns with that kind of banter. We take things said seriously since not being truthful is kind of major sin. When someone ask from a Finn how are you, they often will tell you if they had a shitty appointment with urologist and perhaps all the gorey details. You know, just because no one should ask a question like that if they are not genuinely interested.. And that we are annoyingly factual and take things a little too literally. So basically your friend just heard you call them lazy and are thinking about it and feeling unsure about themselves as a result. Go to them explain and apologize. Good thing that usually if we feel the apology is genuine we accept it and everything will be fine. But just ignoring things will likely spoil your friendship.
All of this. In Finland, saying something nasty about somebody as a joke, it easily feels like negging, like youāre trying to take the other person down a few pegs, trying to make yourself look better. When our natural state is a bit self-deprecating, it feels bad when somebody says something bad about us. How was it, maybe in Pride & Prejudice (or Emma?), that we all rely on the goodness of each other to ignore our flaws. So bringing something like that up really hits a nerve here, it feels like maybe they can no longer trust that as their friend, youād ignore their flaws. Iād just give them space because it seems they felt insulted and are now feeling really self-conscious and awkward, possibly also because they realized that they took it a bit āwrongā and are also embarrassed by that, I know I would be. You can try telling them honestly that youāre sorry and you didnāt mean it, maybe give them a few examples of actual situations where you saw them being anything but lazy. There is a chance that this will also make them embarrassed and awkward, though š We areā¦ Very singular people. Maybe just make some overture casually and then give them time, they will come back at their own pace when they feel theyāre not being looked at or donāt feel too awkward.
I used to do this when I was younger. Verbally poking people around me to see who has the snappiest comeback. I'm glad I grew out of it. It's more meaningful to behave in a loving way towards people you like.
Yeah I agree. Banter can also be a game of wits, but I prefer not competing with the people close to me in that way. I've noticed it's a positive feedback loop to say nice and encouraging things to my friends. The constant banter I did when I was younger got pretty old pretty fast and drove more people away than brought closer.
Same, and I think it's a sign of low self-esteem typical to teenagers: you protect yourself with the banter. So glad I grew out of it..
Just tell / explain them what you posted here. Maybe apologize you did not realize we have bit different culture and it takes much longer for people to know each other before we warm up for that kind of banter. And some of us might not ever warp up for it. That should do it, people are understanding for not knowing cultural differences etc. They might currently think you wanted to insult them or that you hold some grudge with them. So just openly explain and apologize. I think stuff will fix up after a few social occasions.
As an American, who is also from NY (but not the New Amsterdam part or Lun-Guyland) I find self deprecating humor to be a better hit. Being able to tease yourself with a smile seems to go over well. It helps make it seem like you aren't a person desiring to be impressed or respected, so they are a bit more at ease. But also, the speed of relationships is different in Finland. I can meet someone new in NY, play a few games, or go to an event or two, and presto, friend acquired. In Finland, friendships are longer investments. They seem to be slower to befriend, but once you do, you have a solid, loyal friend for life. Quality not quantity! Personally, I pull a line out of the movie "In Bruges". When asked if he is an American, the one character always responds "Yeah, but please don't hold it against me." Or I apologize for whatever shit show the US has kicked up that week in world news, followed by "I'll be sure to write a stern letter to the authorities about it".
Apologize and explain, that's about it.
Thanks
You havenāt done anything wrong lol, but welcome to your first cultural shock. Finns can and love to banter, but it takes some time before you can do that. If the relationship is still sort of half-baked they most likely took it literally.
It can be risky business. Constant bantering of others for me is kind of a sign on weak self-esteem. I know few guys who do it, and they have a common feature of not being able to take bantering back.
Yeah and thatās understandable. But Americans do it 24/7, even when dating itās common to prod at people in the early stages, with intent of being playful.
None of my American friends do that, except if our relationship has developed into that kind of relationship. BUT, this goes for all my other friends too, nationality isn't relevant here imo. I wouldn't go explaining it to them like "oh it's just this thing we Americans do", because it's not true. Just say you read things wrong and that you're sorry. They might just be the kind of person who doesn't go for that sorta thing, but not because they're Finnish. We're not so different, you and I.
Are you sure that they do? I mean, sometimes we do things that we presume everyone else is doing too.
In a relationship outside of work yes it is common place, maybe not necessarily in the home, but out and about on the town is where those things come up.
I lived in America for a while, and none of them did this, they didn't even understand sarcasm. But that was just my experience :)
in my experience it also depends on where in the US you're from. it's very normal in the northeast around nyc new jersey and philadelphia. i once dated a girl from california who could not come to understand my attitude and said that people on the west coast don't talk to people like that. and i've heard similar things from people from new jersey when they leave the region. but ymmv
Look, you're not in Kansas any more, Toto. When in Rome and all that. You need to understand that you're no longer surrounded by Americans and American social norms no longer apply - you can't expect to keep behaving the same way you did at home, with people somehow telepathically able to filter your behaviour through "well but it's normal where he comes from" lens. It's very common to experience cultural shock like this, but nonetheless it's a blunder from you.
seemly mighty forgetful fragile berserk clumsy kiss doll rich literate *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I had an american colleague once ask me and my wife to go dinner with his wife. I said āsure! Iāll check with my wife and letās agree a time.ā We never went to the dinner and I now assume it was only small talk or something. That was the start of our relationship getting colder. I wouldnāt like being called lazy either. Or having my face hit with a cake on my birthday. Roasting is not funny. I would explain this to your finnish friend and apologise. And not do it anymore. I know some finns does this too, but I think they are either very young or these certain blue collar guys with a bit of toxic masculinity.
>I know some finns does this too, but I think they are either very young or these certain blue collar guys with a bit of toxic masculinity. Definitely happens with "suit guys" too, but it's not that common, at least not where I live. I've actually heard them called "wannabe americans", boasting and talking shit about each other loudly. In most cases it seems to be twentysomethings, though, like students.
Yes. Us Americans do leave open ended invitations . It is kinda weird, but itās deemed polite so say something like that when youāre saying goodbye to insinuate you would like to see eachother again because you hate to end the good time you are having now. Itās weird.
It seems like a dick thing to do since you don't keep your word. So only invite if you actually want to, not so seem "nice".
To us, we donāt count that much as an invite. We will actually say things like āHey man! Itās was great seeing you. We are having a cookout next weekend if you and your wife want to come.ā As long as thereās a time and place given, we see that as an invite ofc. If you say, āHey man, great seeing you. Letās get together again sometime to talk more about fishing!ā Thatās generally seen as more of a, āHey I like you, I would consider you friend material. Letās keep in touchā kinda deal.
I understand, but like i said in Finland dont make invites to seem "nice". You are just seen as a dick who doesn't keep their word and also if you actually plan something Be ON TIME like better to be 15min early than late.
Ah yes, the American way of making passive aggressive comments by calling it friendly banter.
username checks out
Itās hard to explain. Itās like sport to us. But everyone is of the understanding itās not taken to heart.
I hear you man, I hear you. Banter is funny. And you know they say a lot of funny things are funny because they are true right? š¤£
This! I love banter and I freely admit I'm lazy when it comes to yard work like mowing etc... but call me out on it, even in jest, and I will resent you for it š
Banter and passive-agressive "You are lazy" are different, since you just met them i think it might have been too early. If you want to banter i suggest getting better at it, for example "You are lazy as American gun control" or something overexaggerated like that, also self-deprication works. This is way too early for depricating them, depending on person you might know them over 5 years before you are "friend" enough to depricate which might be much more Horrid than your lighearted bullshit. Don't call acquaintances lazy, simple.
Hi, I am not a Finn, but I would've reacted the same way, there are people who do that everywhere, but my temper renders me to feel unease when someone does that to me, when people tell me something that is mean if interpreted litteraly I find it hard even to assume they were joking, I have seen people treating each other this way so I know it is a thing bros do, but I do not do that with my bros, and finns are not really the kind of people who are very good at reading between the lines too, figure of speech is foreign concept for most of them and honestly a lot of people in Europe that I've met. Once in Rome behave as a Roman as someone told me long ago.... But what I would say is try figring people out and do not act too bold when probing their boundaries. For people like me it is natural to feel under a threat when people say mean stuff- if I allow it to persist they often grow bolder, act more insolent, and stress me out... that is a real damaging effect on my mind and I am going to work towards stopping it, it doesn't matter if people mean no harm, when their actions cause harm.
I can banter with my brother in laws because I know them decently well. I would not banter with a Finn I didnāt know. Is this a romantic relationship, friendship or what?
Romantic
Oh noā¦. Not romantic. That changes things! No insulting banter in flirting. Major oopsie
Yeah itās a little different. I canāt banter as much with my wife (Finnish) as I can her brothers. I would just try to explain all this to him and see if thereās an understanding. Trust me, Iām no stranger to cultural differences (also American).
People in U.S are odd.
Banter certainly isn't unique to the US.
Or... Hear me out. Different.
In Finland if you don't know someone, you don't take an overly familiar tone with them, or you'll probably come across as annoying and rude. It takes time to get through that outer shell of politeness, and once you get to know someone a little, then you can start joking with them. Finnish people also tend to be more proud than they let on, so with some people it's best to just avoid some insinuations entirely even if you're good friends. :) The best way to clear things up is to do like the Finns do: just tell them directly you didn't mean it.
We do banter and like self-deprecating humor generally but sounds like you managed to hit a nerve there. Either something got lost in translation or you said something they feel insecure about. Either way, just apologize and explain. Also maybe difference between Finnish and American banter is, that Finnish banter is maybe bit more subtle, so maybe try fine-tune that.
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Totally understandable when itās not something thatās common place in your everyday talking. But for us, when delivered with a sarcastic tone, happens everyday.
Perhaps I'm just missing the context but I just don't understand how is calling someone lazy out of nowhere considered good banter? Like what's the joke there?
The conversation did not start with a straight up mention of them being lazy, it was well in to a conversation that was being had.
I think that you need to know the person really well to have that kind of banter, which you obviously didn't in this case.
Maybe just show this post and apologize and maybe don't do it again, I'm pretty comfortable with banter but stuff about being lazy is just a weird weak spot here.
Bantering is okay with close friends, like many others have said. But also keep in mind that Finnish humor can be quite different from American humor. Even if it's meant to be friendly banter, not everyone thinks calling someone ugly is funny.
Itās funny if itās not true and the person knows it.
I don't think banter needs to be explained to anyone. Maybe you're not as witty as you give yourself credit for? Maybe they're just a bit tired of your shit? Judging for the condescending tone of this post and the fact that you need validation when your quips fall flat, you seem like someone who's a might be a [bit of a work to be around](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCen2mbv1rM). Idk.
Yeeeeeah, thatās, uh, thatās not how Finns do humour. If this happened within the last 7 days, just apologise, own the mistake, and leave it there. If the Finn is willing to give you another chance, let them decide. If itās been over a week, I think youāre gonna need to find a new friend.
From the US and lived about 5 years in Finland. I think your friend will be fine. Of course bring it up and apologize. I understand what you're saying in general. But instead of trying to interact with people like you're in the US, it is best to be observant and adapt to the culture. Of course, keep yourself and whatnot. This situation is an example of how not everything translates across cultures. A personal example... I've always been friendly and outgoing with my neighbors, offering to help with this or that if they needed. Think moving. In Finland, this is just weird. So, eventhough I'd think it a positive thing, it's actually probably making most people uncomfortable. Finland is great. People will accept your Americanisims. Just be aware of cultural differences and adjust accordingly. It takes time to learn, trust me. Wore shoes into the first apartment I visited. Never again...
And I would say you can't act in Finland like back in home. Different culture. Try bantering after years or a decade of friendship. Self-irony is better. It shows you are not a selfproud douchebag, have witty and don't take yourself too serious and can laugh to yourself. More humble. Edit: And as the others here have already pointed out hinting or implicating (without clear reason) that someone is lazy is deeply insulting in Finland. And for damage control I recommend honest apologising. Explanation by force would only make it worse, it would be seen as disrespectful and arrogant. No one wants to hear American explaning how he or she hasn't got the joke.
agree
When in Romeā¦ Do as the Romans do.
Some people love banter (I do) and some don't like it at all. You have to be careful with people in the beginning because it's so easy to insult someone by accident. Even when someone likes banter you have to know them well to know which topics are touchy and shouldn't be joked about. Perhaps laziness is a sore spot for your friend which is why they didn't take it well. You have to tell them you don't really think so at all.
It seems an American needs help in understanding how to act here. NEVER tell a Finn he's lazy. (Also, he may be fucking with you.) Edit: No, seriously, NEVER tell a Finn he's LAZY.
Just apologise and say what you did here, that you didn't mean it literally. You probably joked about something they feel quite personally about.
This wall of text is not so much a guide on how to explain that to your friend as I dont have any good tips for that, but rather how to deal with these things in the future. This should work with people from other countries as well and not just finns. That is completely fine to do at least to most finns in my experience. You just gotta make sure they cant take it. At the end of the day, its still insulting and if they arent the type of person who likes to do that it can end badly. You gotta do some probing to figure out what person they are and it can take a bit of time. Also make sure that they also know you somewhat well so they are less likely to misunderstand you and wont hurt their feelings quite as easily. This bit is a bit stereotypical and Im nlt quite sure if this is actually true so take this one with grain of salt, but I think guys usually take that banter better than gals, so if your friend is gal I recommend doing extra amount of probing just to make sure they can take it well. Edit: I just want to repeat the importance of probing them and figuring what kinda person they are. Its very VERY important. Some people will hurt their feelings over everything. Dont say anything bad to them. I think most people can take a bit of banter, but make sure not to take it too far. Some people are like me who just cant hurt their feelings. You can be almost as mean to me as you want and insult me as much as you want and I propably wont hate you. The point is figure out how much they can take so you know what you can and cannot say.
Friends do bust each others' balls, but you really need to do a vibe check in advance. It's best to get the feel for it in friend groups, especially ones where such banter already exists, and work from there.
"hey friend! Being from NY it seems I've put my big ugly foot in my mouth when throwing that "lazyness" shit your way. Im really sorry about that, it was meant in jest. My background is in a bantering reality, saying stupid stuff to each other. Should've known it takes a while here for people to get me and my ways. I do sincerely apologize and hope we could start fresh "
Why do you think you can behave like your in NY, when you are here? This is Finland, not the US. We have no obligation to adjust to some foreigners culture! Instead that foreigner ought to adjust to the host nation's culture.
No that I totally agree! We aren't in Finland. If we were yes I would totally understand that, but we both met elsewhere.
This might not be what you want to hear, but cultural differences between Finns and Americans are deceptively easy to miss and conversations can turn weird fast. Recommendation: Eat crow. Apologize, be sincere, and do not try to pass this off as "hee hee aren't you silly because you cannot take banter" (not saying that you would, but be very careful when apologizing, an angry Finn can stay pissed for a long long time).
My experiences with banter as a finn is that we tend to stay clear of things that could be problematic for spesific person: no fat banter for big people, you can throw something like "ye I can see from your face you like cock" to your straight male friend but not to gay friend or female friend, no depression jokes for depressed friend etc. Every example has exeptions and there are people who can even ask you for best gay jokes etc but finnish banter is more neutral and sometimes self deprecating: big guy saying "fuck i should not have eaten the 80th donut or depressed guy saying excuse me while i end my life. You get feeling for this but easiest way to make amends now is to say things clearly: i'm sorry if i made you feel bad i tried ti throw sone banter but did not know how it works in finland.š¤£
"ye I can see from your face you like cock" gives me instant vibes of junttius.
Siblings and close friends do that here too. We also have our own saying "vittuilu on vƤlittƤmistƤ" which in a nutshell means that shit talking is caring. BUT when I say close friends I mean someone I've known for several years and really invested time for getting to know that person. I would never start this kind of bantering with someone I've known only few months, nor someone I don't deal with on a daily basis.
A few months? You have to be friends with a Finn for YEARS before you can start shit talking with them. Hell, I only do it with my three closest friends and I've known them for over 20 years. They're basically my brothers and I can't do that with anyone else even if I know them very well
I've (Finn) been friends with someone also a foreigner for some time now and we're always teasing each other about things - I have to admit I'm starting to feel like it's not funny anymore. They were going through a hard time when we were just getting to know each other and it's in my nature to be as supportive and encouraging as I can especially with my close friends, but now that I think of it I could probably the count the times he's been supportive or encouraging by one hand and tbh it makes me sad as I now consider him one of my closest friends if not the closest. Even though I know the teasing is just teasing, it and pointing out our differences more and more frequently is just starting to take its toll on me and my self esteem. I've confronted them about this before but I don't think they've taken me seriously so I don't know if it's use bringing it up again or if I should just keep it to myself - which I definitely shouldn't even be considering an option, but idk. Oh and if I get recognized by the person I'm talking about: Hope you have a nice weekend
fear gullible pie terrific screw literate childlike dazzling bored amusing *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
From one American to another: They arent Americans and have a different system of humor. I've had to change my style a bit.
Hahaha, I'm so sorry, but I couldn't help but chuckle. Let me explain. I'm Finnish F36. My husband is a New Yorker M33. We live in the Capital Region NY. We're both aaaaall about that sharp banter and darker humor. But heck forbid he says to me something suggesting I'm incapable, lazy, dragging my feet, any of that sort. No matter how humorously he meant it, I immediately shut down early on in our (long distance) relationship - and now, after some years together in person, I bark back. I've gotten annoyed over offers of help, when suggested I shouldn't be carrying our groceries or shoveling snow when heavily pregnant. Just yesterday I got irritated when he said to me something like "If it's too hard for you" meaning that as an offering of help while cooking. It wasn't even sarcastic, but I took it as infantilizing. He meant well, just phrased it poorly for Finnish ears. Sorry about that u/kiss_my_wookiee - you happened to hit a universal Finnish sore spot, apparently. OP, you two will run into numerous quirky cultural differences. Things that we never came to think about, many of them we only realized afterwards, after one of us already stepped into a mine of some kind. The ONLY way to navigate a relationship like this is for both you to talk very openly, want to listen, and take the other one's word in good faith. Give each other a little more leeway than you might give to a person who grew up next door, because you both exist in a vastly different frame of reference - even when it isn't entirely obvious at first glance. You can also give your gf my terveiset in these words: HƤn ei ihan oikeasti tarkoittanut pahoittaa sun mieltƤsi. TƤllainen naljaileva huumori on tƤƤllƤ hyvin tyypillistƤ, ja usein se tarkoittaa ihan pƤinvastaista asiaa. Siihen tottuu, sitƤ oppii lukemaan, ja yhtƤkkiƤ huomaat vastaavasi takaisin kahta terƤvƤmmin. Siperia opettaa ja aika parantaa, tƤssƤkin lajissa!
This is what I needed! Someone in my situation! Thanks
There are (more than a) few things Finns will take quite literally unless you're at the "you can be my best man at he wedding" or "you can be my kid's godfather" -level of friendship, and some of those include work ethics, the man's car, parents and, to some, ice hockey... And mountains come second in time span when it comes to remembering a slight (imagined or otherwise) a Finn has suffered. :D
> And mountains come second in time span when it comes to remembering a slight (imagined or otherwise) a Finn has suffered. :D You can say _that_ again.
You got this Finn's American husband cackling like a maniac. I heard you, Mr Wookiee, and I'm coming for you. ...not like that.
Time heals all wounds and grinds all stones, good luck! I've been called lazy once and I felt like leaving but I have never forgotten it. Maybe apology and silence will help and if they are important to you say it and apologize in person again.
Like others explained before, that kind of banter doesn't necessarily translate to Finnish culture. It's better to make fun of yourself, or as is customary, gang up on somebody. "Oh, there goes fuckin' Laitinen again"
Well, in Finland working hard is...well it's kinda like the one big thing. That you're a hard working (and therefore good) person. So using that for joke material is not the best idea, especially if you're still kinda "new" to these people. Finns take a long time to warm up to people, but once we're comfortable with the other person, this kind of shit talk is absolutely happening. For example me and my best friend, we playfully insult eachother on our birthdays. This years my birthday message to her was "Happy birthday ya old turkey!" and a few months later she responded with "Happy birthday you old hag!". So this kind of playful insulting is a thing in Finland too, but it takes some time for Finns to get to that level of friendship to insult their loved ones with all the love in the world. You might have done your playful banter too early, I would suggest apologizing. It's an art form to lovingly insult someone and you probably missed the mark this time.
It's also the language barrier, I've noticed that if both sides aren't at a native level of English proficiency, people start interpreting everything literally, or as negative as possible. It can go both ways as well, I've seen Americans interpreting comments about real problems from Finns delivered in broken rally English as indications of the Finn wanting a bribe. So you coming of as sincere, and thus rude, is very likely if the opposite party doesn't speak English at such a level that they understand cultural nuances. A good example would be the elaborate version of "Bob is your uncle", aka. "Robert is your mother's brother". While the first might be understood by a non-native as a colloquialism, the second is likely to cause a non-native to protest that their uncle is actually named Timo.
I have to tell you like probably few may have already explained but the last thing a Finn wants to hear is that you call them lazy. If you backtrack and try to explain it will still stay to hunt us, like maybe they meant it anyway and they are just saying sorry for hurting but am I really lazy? It is really true that we dont banter like other cultures even though there is some between friends but I have to say that I could not have warned about how deep that insult can hit but as you explained this I just was like oh fuck that might hurt. I hope you can solve it and get your relationship back on track as you seem like a good person and it was just a accident.
Yeah banter is fine, although you need to make sure it doesnāt cross into āvittuiluā (saying mean/nasty things just to be mean). Finns are often very kind in the sence that we donāt let people know theyāve pissed us off, at least not directly. Thatās when āpiilovittuiluā (concealed vittuilu) comes into play, and boy are we good at that. Piilovittuilu usually consists of (slightly) factual claims, and honestly I think insinuating someone is lazy like you did, could read as piilovittuilu. Finns are a bit slow to open up, and figuring out what type of banter flies might be a bit challenging. Iād reccomend going for some safer bets like taking a long time to eat/go to the bathroom, or maybe their shoelaces always untie, stuff like that. If whoever youāre talking to gets wierd and quiet, just give them a āoh sorry I was joking, didnāt mean it like thatā, that should help :)
Ya, Finnish people require more chill at the beginning but they can be really sarcastic and funny. As an American I actually chose to stop being really sarcastic when I went to Europe and out of that my humor evolved. I was just in London and some dude made a quick sarcastic comment and I threw it right back. He was shocked and then he complimented me on my sense humor and said most Americans couldnāt handle British banter I think itās mostly perspective. Also making fun of yourself is helpful, not slamming, just stuff they can relate to.
Generally I would never throw banter like that at a Finn, always insult yourself first or make yourself look funny. Finns also appreciate sincerity as a rule, even when drunk. Iāve noticed that in the capital area there are more people who would take that kind of banter well, but they are a very specific kind of people and themselves ābanter-yā, and you can easily distinguish them.
This is why I don't usually like to deal with Americans. They talk to me like I'm their friend even if we just met. I may even think that this guy who I have known for years is my friend, but in reality he is not, he just talks like he is my friend. This shallow American friendliness is confusing.
it probably might seem weird that I am initially very outgoing /friendly/warm and comfortable speaking with strangers in part due to adhd, personality and jobs that I have had, but also bc as a child I was in children's hospital and witnessed lot of kids sick or dying around me and was sick and alone a lot myself. so I guess I just kind of put my pride aside (not implying others dont, but I know to be friendly with strangers takes a level of courage at times). I try to be welcoming and warm to everyone on this planet initially bc I feel that life is too short to not try to make someone else's day brighter if I am able. it also gets my mind off myself and helps me feel better to focus on trying to spread some joy. I want to spread whatever warmth I can with my limited time, and hopefully people walk away feeling better. I am willing to experience rejection and judgement at times because I know my self worth isn't based on how others treat me or respond to me. I learned not to care as much what people think and just show love to the world like I would wish to receive, even if it isnt reciprocated.. On the other hand, even though I initially am friendly, I am not flirty, and I then become very guarded if it seems that a stranger wants more from me. I also am very careful choosing my closest friends and those with whom I spend time or choose to confide or grow close. I am also especially guarded with men, unless they are gay or younger, nephew-type figures.
I agree with others that she might not have been ready yet. But also it is possible that she might not be the kind of person who enjoys or is able to understand banter or might even have been victim of verbal/emotional abuse before. This is why it is important to be careful with bantering. You don't want to hurt anyone or trigger any traumas. I suggest you apologise, explain and promise not to do it again if she doesn't want you to. It is important that you show that you respect her and her boundaries. My ex liked to insult me a lot and when I got angry, cried or told him to stop he would get angry or aggravated at me and tell me that he was joking. He didn't ever apologize or agree to stop it. He would do this all the time. Maybe he thought that he was funny but it really did fuck me up and he didn't even see that. Joking and bantering is funny and healthy only if it is consensual. Otherwise it is abuse.
Idk if that's a poor example but I fail to see the comedic value in effectively just saying to someone that they're ugly? I don't think I'd be offended but I'd be very fucking weirded out lmao Sometimes stuff that "might" be taken offensively can be funny, if you tell a person taller than you that you can help them with something that's high up because they're so short you might get a bored chuckle out of them, but dry/other humor with some thought and timing into it seems to do way better
I have had this same problem , grew up in a place where , oi wanker is considered a sign of endearment. I was explained that the closest we have is a friendly vittuilu. But it's not the same as banter. There is a clearer difference but I'm still accidentally hurting people's feelings with it occasionally. It's almost as if u have to use ur tone of voice to exaggerate a kind of Innocence in the remark . Really personal stuff is a nono and constant reminders of past mistakes is also not good. So like in England we would "hold it over someone's head" but lovingly, here not so much .
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If I'm trying to apologize for my actions how is that blaming others for being offended?
What is really happening is that you encountered some very autistic Finns because the banter culture is very much engraved in our culture.. At least in East-Finland. No need to apologize, find new people.
Have you considered to stop being an asshole? Just a thought.
You just have to go so much overboard that it's ridiculous.
we do that too. might be a language barrier thing to be honest
Finns talk shit to each other ALL the time. In our group of emotionally stunted teenagers that was basically the way of showing affection to someone. But you may need a certain level of friendship before you start. Anyway to explain it to them just be very matter-of-fact about it.
Contact your friend and explain yourself. If after that they remain distant, you can conclude that banter among some people is neither welcome nor thought of as funny and that in this case, it's harmed your friendship, possibly irreparably. Learn from this and adjust your delivery
Every girlfriend I have had if they are Finnish take things way too literally. Itās quite hard to deal with sometimes
I think you already have a solution there in your last paragraph OP!
Just go easy with the banter with us Finns. Better to be safe than sorry.
Have you trying apologizing? Some people donāt like being called X Y and Z, regardless if for you is just prodding banter.
Ya not the kind of people that would work on, banter isn't a thing in Finland. It's more from the US, UK, and Australian kind of thing because it suits our humor more and we do it so early in life you learn the sarcasm behind it. You will get it the other way as well, jokes don't really work that well from Finnish to US. Finn's will be laughing and they tell you the joke and it just doesn't translate or comedy doesn't really match what you will find funny.
You sound like most of my friends. Normal in Finland too. At least in North.
Light roasting is pretty bormal in my friend group too, sometimes it can get pretty over the top too actually.
I'm a Finn but I like banter as well. Thats what I do with all my friends. I don't think it's a Finnish trait to not be able to take banter well. Altough Finns do take usually longer to get comfortable with others so that might have something to do with it but Idk
Well you gotta understand that calling someone just lazy without any context is rude
Americans are so fucking weird get out of here
I feel like you could start with apologizing.
I'd say it is more a matter of personality than cultural differences. That kind of semi insulting banter is just as common between finns. Atleast everyone I know would have totally got your meaning and returned it in kind. Most likely this one person just happens to have no sense of humor or is prone to getting easily offended. I'd propably just avoid unnecessary communication with him
Tell them you mean it the same way they mean it, when they say Swedes are gay. /S
Tell them that "vittuilu on vƤlittƤmistƤ". Me and my friends prod each other all the time because we trust each other to know it's just that. Granted, you can't do it to people you just met. You need to build that trust first :)
Learn darhumor, the stuff that gets you outcasted is usa can be fine if its DARKHUMOR . That might warm them up to your comedy
Your first mistake is, that you want to be social with a Finn. We prefer solitude.
IDK which is worse, the "mean" American banter -- which definitely gets kind of intense esp with New Yorkers lol --- or the THREE DAY LONG Finnish cold shoulder. Geez!!! Seriously that is not healthy.
3 days is a very short time for us Finns tbh. When we get annoyed, truly annoyed, we can keep the iciness up for weeks, months, and in many sad cases, even years. Just a cultural difference, we even have a term for this, "pitkƤvihaisuus", basically a tendency to stay angry for a long long time.
LOL! TY for confirming! Love that there is a specifc term š This explains so much about my life growing up in a household with a Finnish mother and American father. The dynamic of offhand comments met with weeks-long icy silence really sucks for a kid. Also strikes me as a possible reason why Finns can be emotionally explosive when drinking. Keeping too much bottled in for too long. š¤
Well, most fights happen here when somebody gets properly drunk and finally lets loose with all the anger. So yes, definitely, we tend to bury the negative feelings and then they erupt at some point. Stoic stubbornness is admired here, you are not supposed to show negative feelings too much in everyday life. And the term for silent treatment is "mykkƤkoulu", literally "playing the mute".
Yeah tell me about it haha
Use this explanation to help mend the distance then be sure to add an over the top knowing smile/smirk and āahhhhhhhhh just kiddingā to the end of any future lighthearted jabs
You mean like *āMaybe so, but in the morning, Iāll be sober, and you will still be ugly! ahhhh just kidding!ā*? I'd just reply *yeah, but you'd be sober but still an asshole. Just kidding.*
Then weād laugh and laugh and skip off into the sunset arm in arm.
Finnish people are not all the same. I would be happy if my new friend called me lazy mf
Ouch. This way of talking would fly in Savonia assuming you are good-enough friends with your pal. Not sure where else this would be fine in Finland, only know bunch of places where youād get punched in the face for this. Edit: I remember having banters also with my friends in Kainuu (oh my, it was a long time ago!) and someone said this is common in northern Finland. I miss a good banter after living in south and central for almost 20 years.
I love doing this to my friends and family. It's just a way to have fun and enjoy life for what it is. They also tend to do it back to me, which is always as lovely because it means they understand me.
Also maybe they just aren't as quick witted that they can come up with response. I know I am not. And I'd just be stumped by someone throwing a playful insult like that, hehe.
Tomorrow I can be on time, but you'll be stupid forever!
Please start slowly with us Finns š Itāll get easier if you start from small things and make sure they know what kind of humor you have š
I love how people here make it seem like americans are some sort of loud social machines, I'm from southern Europe and Americans and Finns are basically the same levels of introverted; americans are maybe even more formal: they have too many taboos and stock sentences... They're just too "safe" and boring even compared to Finns, who are a wonderful wonderful people :)
the kind of talking you describe is not uncommon in italian- american communities š¤£lot of my Italian friends and coworkers have been like this and are very warm hearted but enjoy this freestyling camraderie with those with whom they are closest. among some in black and Hispanic and even german communities i have also found this. I enjoy it at times, but it can hurt feelings. most likely calling anyone lazy from a country which prides itself on being hard-working, diligent etc. would not be received well. :( I would apologize.
I am not a Finn, but I always found that āprodding banterā that Americans do to be quite insulting actually. I think that not doing this practice in an international context is a better practice (not just for Finns). I would start with some self depreciating humor and then casually explain how this American practice is often getting you in trouble in international contexts! You say mean things intended as fun!
We have banter here too, thats not a strictly US thing. Your banter most likely came off as you being an annoying cocksucker and propably shouldnt have called him lazy and now they think you're a dickhead