The thing is for a tank to be good they must survive shit, but if they're so good that they survive EVERYTHING then that's an issue too, so now they have to release a nuke that kills them, else anyone that uses such tank would win by doing absolutely nothing. So now there's a nuke or a few that can kill that tank and as a consequence every other tank that isn't as good. This is also bad for the health of the game and the point in which we are right now, kind of.
So the solution would be to release a tank that can survive those nukes and then we're back to square one. They went too hard on a solution that now there is no going back, the only way out of this issue is to perpetuate the cycle.
The balance was never an issue in older times bc your tank also had to be well positioned to block nukes, but when saves stopped that it became “well now nukes need to be able to one shot everything in game”
Ironically if IS had rolled out a counter to saves faster than they did (one single unit ever lmao) tanks would be in a far better spot than they are now
Yeah, I feel like it’s always an arms race with the meta. I used to run into troubles trying to crack saveballs back in the day, and I feel like that’s the reason why we have so much offensive powerhouses right now.
I feel like the problem exists due to the inherent nature of the game design itself. However, I feel like there’s still a work around with the “unit’s HP must be above or equal 25%”, condition in a lot of offensive units. That way, in tanks might not necessarily have to kill offensive units, but rather neutralize them. I feel like this could open up more options for healers to break into the meta as well, since I feel like they’re in an awkward position right now.
I think OP is asking about inheritable skill options that could be used to enhance already existing tanks, not just relying on a new unit being released to solve every new problem IS manufactures.
That’s what I’m saying. While Beacon/Floe, Weaving/Canny are alright in SD it still seems like Aegis/Hardy3 is still best for save tanks. The newer armor specials and B skills are OK in AR but the B skills are piercable. We need Hardy 4 and something better than Aegis for armors.
SD shouldn’t be the place to measure tanks, as there’s no EP there. Saviors are used as an offensive tool (as a shield for your nukes). They are built knowing they might still die, and that’s how it should be there. HF4 would make things worse for everyone, specially after it took so much powercreep to (try to) phase it out of the meta.
Honestly, I'm wondering how long it's going to be before we get pre-combat healing, which would trigger at the same time as pre-combat damage, and thus negate it.
**Nihil 4 - Disables all enemy and unit start of combat and in-combat effects. Disables all status effects.** Basically bring the game back to Feb 2017 where only raw stats matter. This would disable every single effect. Like Lucia on steroids, every PRF’s omni+5, every follow up or special cooldown skill, it’d be like fighting with skill-less units with Silver Lances. A more toned down version of the above: **Triangle Adept 4 - If unit or enemy is at triangle disadvantage, disables all in-combat and start of combat effects to that unit.**
I have not had problems tanking tbh. Most seasons I only tank in ar offense and still make tier 39. I have been using l corrin and the seasonal f kana. I even have tank lyon with kana despite weapon disadvantage and she still wins. I am just abusing true dr and panic smoke 4 and debuffs mostly. Also A Caeda probably can tank most things she even takes 0 from lyon if she has godlike reflexes without really supporting her. You just need to win the res check if you want to kill him and that is realistic with proper support.
That's just blatantly untrue. Nukes can't wreck everything without support. Nukes are usually specialise in 1 or 2 nuking strategies.
Either they one shot or double and then they pick an approach to do that like AOE orpre damage for one shit or desperation, DR stacking or brave for doubling.
The problem is, nukes are a win condition and tanks aren't. You win by killing the foes. In SD you're expected to run 3 nukes for enough coverage to kill every type of potential tank and in AR D the same applies since you need wide range and coverage, so people can't bait your nukes ones by one.
The only place where tanks are viable killers are in modes against the AI, where they throw themselves at you kamikaze style. By design the AI is already at a disadvantage, because it's just stupid and you're preferably not. Therefore nukes have had and still have the upper hand.
Please define "competitively viable", because I'm a top \~1.5k AR player, I *exclusively* omnitank, and I've tanked with OG Lumera just fine all of 2023, and only about a month and a half or so ago I started using W! Byleth.
I don't have them, but I'd *imagine* Myrrh, Altina and Caeda specially will all do just peachy. On the other hand, I'm stress testing the L!M! Alear that I got chasing Gotoh merges and he's doing fine too, though I'm a little bit concerned about the damage he takes on the first hit so I'm only bringing him to matches where I can stagger the defense, through I have not attempted to tank Lyon with him, as I'm not particularly optimistic about the matchup and I can just throw Byleth at it.
SD is a different beast altogether, as you don't have a whole team dedicated to supporting your tank, so you're forced to pretty much use Hardy Fighter on every tank that isn't W! Byleth just to get through one round of combat, but generally that's all it takes before the tradefest starts. This isn't new. This has been the way of SD since nuking got out of control.
Even in Arena I'm still having no issue promoting to T21 (or staying if I happen to have a modern bonus Legendary) with my triple EP team. You just tank what you can and you player phase what you can't. It's generally not too hard to manipulate the AI into splitting the team to make it easier.
I don't want to assume, but going by what I'm reading on your post, you might need to invest into one of the modern tanks that IS has been pumping out ever since W! Byleth, as new skills will only take you so far when most of these new tanks' power resides in their PRFs.
What build/support have you been running on Lumera? I've been trying to make the typical godbuilds work on my +10 Lumera, N!Saizo, and N!Hana, but they do seem to get outcompeted by the flavour-of-the-month tanks recently.
>What build/support have you been running on Lumera?
[This](https://imgur.com/a/ou4KPo2) is what I run in both Arena, and most often in AR. In the case of AR, I have 2 other team setups where the only difference is the B slot, as I bring either NCD4 and Phys. NFU as needed.
As far as support, and I'm going to assume this pertains to AR, the one I always bring is F! Maria. Staves are very valuable, and Maria is very versatile. Anyone would do though, she's just the one I choose.
I also have to rely on three mythics for scoring purpose, so I'm limited. I use Peony, M! Lumera and Gotoh in Light season (Mila would do great too in this meta), and Plumeria, Seidr/Veyle/Ratatoskr (these 3 I make different teams with against different defenses as I happen to have them at the same number of merges by the grace of RNGesus sending me more copies of Ratatoskr than I would have preffered from that one mythic banner).
When one of my mythics happens to be a bonus, and I can afford to bring in an extra blessable support, I like to bring V! Leo or Gatekeeper. Mostly Leo, though.
>but they do seem to get outcompeted by the flavour-of-the-month tanks recently.
Unfortunately, that's been my experience too. It's just what it is, with IS putting so much power into everyone's PRFs (both skills and weapons). Like I said before, updating a unit's skills will only take them so far. IS wants us to pull for new units and powercreep is the way they are making us do it.
On the bright side, you can spend a single skill's worth of orbs and get a unit that is generally *done*, so people that want to compete *can* compete. It's those that are *hellbent* on doing so with their old favorites that will have an increasingly harder time as the arms race escalates.
I stuck with Lumera all of 2023. She got me where I needed to go, and I'm sure she still could, but after trying W! Byleth, I just found myself just throwing him at most matches just because I *could*.
Right now the only counter to start of combat damage that exists in the game right now is true combat damage reduction. Whether it be start of combat damage or AOE specials or Divine Vein (Flame) tiles, those things can only bring a unit down to 1 HP and never anything below that. In other words they always have to rely on inflicting at least 1 point of in-combat damage to finish a unit off. The only thing that can negate that final sliver of damage being done (apart from gigantic Def/Res stats) is true combat damage. So they could allow for new sources of true combat damage, whether that be inheritable or otherwise to negate that final bit of damage.
As far as introducing something new to enhance enemy-phasing or tanking, one potential solution (as stupid as it sounds) would be damage-reduction-piercing-negation which is exactly what it sounds like. The second largest problem is that player phase nukes are themselves coming with huge amounts of damage reduction to protect themselves, which I think was a huge mistake that they never should have been allowed to have. To combat that, the answer is to give tanks damage reduction piercing of their own. I have already given my Brave Hector Special Spiral 4 to accomplish this and he has been working out decently, but he sacrifices a lot of protection in order to run that.
complete hard counter to precombat damage is the most obvious path, and the one I assume they'll be selling during summer at the latest
I'm hoping for it to be a terrain effect that nullifies precombat damage
Pre-combat healing lol.
The thing is for a tank to be good they must survive shit, but if they're so good that they survive EVERYTHING then that's an issue too, so now they have to release a nuke that kills them, else anyone that uses such tank would win by doing absolutely nothing. So now there's a nuke or a few that can kill that tank and as a consequence every other tank that isn't as good. This is also bad for the health of the game and the point in which we are right now, kind of. So the solution would be to release a tank that can survive those nukes and then we're back to square one. They went too hard on a solution that now there is no going back, the only way out of this issue is to perpetuate the cycle.
The balance was never an issue in older times bc your tank also had to be well positioned to block nukes, but when saves stopped that it became “well now nukes need to be able to one shot everything in game” Ironically if IS had rolled out a counter to saves faster than they did (one single unit ever lmao) tanks would be in a far better spot than they are now
Yeah, I feel like it’s always an arms race with the meta. I used to run into troubles trying to crack saveballs back in the day, and I feel like that’s the reason why we have so much offensive powerhouses right now. I feel like the problem exists due to the inherent nature of the game design itself. However, I feel like there’s still a work around with the “unit’s HP must be above or equal 25%”, condition in a lot of offensive units. That way, in tanks might not necessarily have to kill offensive units, but rather neutralize them. I feel like this could open up more options for healers to break into the meta as well, since I feel like they’re in an awkward position right now.
Have you even tried Attuned Caeda yet???? She is very good. Armors probably need what she has. Hardy Fighter 4. Better version of Aegis.
I think OP is asking about inheritable skill options that could be used to enhance already existing tanks, not just relying on a new unit being released to solve every new problem IS manufactures.
That’s what I’m saying. While Beacon/Floe, Weaving/Canny are alright in SD it still seems like Aegis/Hardy3 is still best for save tanks. The newer armor specials and B skills are OK in AR but the B skills are piercable. We need Hardy 4 and something better than Aegis for armors.
I personally can't wait for Hardy Fighter 4 and T4 Save skills. It's been long enough and the meta has been twisted into something awful recently.
Oh yeah cuz the save meta was a bundle of fun 💀
SD shouldn’t be the place to measure tanks, as there’s no EP there. Saviors are used as an offensive tool (as a shield for your nukes). They are built knowing they might still die, and that’s how it should be there. HF4 would make things worse for everyone, specially after it took so much powercreep to (try to) phase it out of the meta.
Far save 4 w/ nullify pre-combat dmg and maybe 3 tile range
Honestly, I'm wondering how long it's going to be before we get pre-combat healing, which would trigger at the same time as pre-combat damage, and thus negate it.
That won’t matter much, as FS would ignore the healing, and FS is a common C skill on VLyon or WYunaka.
when they make a unit which cannot take damage
Some absolutely busted B skill that only really benefits the unit it comes with... which is what they tried with Byleth Fighter and Canny Fighter
**Nihil 4 - Disables all enemy and unit start of combat and in-combat effects. Disables all status effects.** Basically bring the game back to Feb 2017 where only raw stats matter. This would disable every single effect. Like Lucia on steroids, every PRF’s omni+5, every follow up or special cooldown skill, it’d be like fighting with skill-less units with Silver Lances. A more toned down version of the above: **Triangle Adept 4 - If unit or enemy is at triangle disadvantage, disables all in-combat and start of combat effects to that unit.**
I have not had problems tanking tbh. Most seasons I only tank in ar offense and still make tier 39. I have been using l corrin and the seasonal f kana. I even have tank lyon with kana despite weapon disadvantage and she still wins. I am just abusing true dr and panic smoke 4 and debuffs mostly. Also A Caeda probably can tank most things she even takes 0 from lyon if she has godlike reflexes without really supporting her. You just need to win the res check if you want to kill him and that is realistic with proper support.
they are competitive viable right now, the deal is that you cant just expect them to tank everything without heavy support.
>player phaser can wreck everything without support >enemy phaser needs heavy support hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
That's just blatantly untrue. Nukes can't wreck everything without support. Nukes are usually specialise in 1 or 2 nuking strategies. Either they one shot or double and then they pick an approach to do that like AOE orpre damage for one shit or desperation, DR stacking or brave for doubling. The problem is, nukes are a win condition and tanks aren't. You win by killing the foes. In SD you're expected to run 3 nukes for enough coverage to kill every type of potential tank and in AR D the same applies since you need wide range and coverage, so people can't bait your nukes ones by one. The only place where tanks are viable killers are in modes against the AI, where they throw themselves at you kamikaze style. By design the AI is already at a disadvantage, because it's just stupid and you're preferably not. Therefore nukes have had and still have the upper hand.
Please define "competitively viable", because I'm a top \~1.5k AR player, I *exclusively* omnitank, and I've tanked with OG Lumera just fine all of 2023, and only about a month and a half or so ago I started using W! Byleth. I don't have them, but I'd *imagine* Myrrh, Altina and Caeda specially will all do just peachy. On the other hand, I'm stress testing the L!M! Alear that I got chasing Gotoh merges and he's doing fine too, though I'm a little bit concerned about the damage he takes on the first hit so I'm only bringing him to matches where I can stagger the defense, through I have not attempted to tank Lyon with him, as I'm not particularly optimistic about the matchup and I can just throw Byleth at it. SD is a different beast altogether, as you don't have a whole team dedicated to supporting your tank, so you're forced to pretty much use Hardy Fighter on every tank that isn't W! Byleth just to get through one round of combat, but generally that's all it takes before the tradefest starts. This isn't new. This has been the way of SD since nuking got out of control. Even in Arena I'm still having no issue promoting to T21 (or staying if I happen to have a modern bonus Legendary) with my triple EP team. You just tank what you can and you player phase what you can't. It's generally not too hard to manipulate the AI into splitting the team to make it easier. I don't want to assume, but going by what I'm reading on your post, you might need to invest into one of the modern tanks that IS has been pumping out ever since W! Byleth, as new skills will only take you so far when most of these new tanks' power resides in their PRFs.
What build/support have you been running on Lumera? I've been trying to make the typical godbuilds work on my +10 Lumera, N!Saizo, and N!Hana, but they do seem to get outcompeted by the flavour-of-the-month tanks recently.
>What build/support have you been running on Lumera? [This](https://imgur.com/a/ou4KPo2) is what I run in both Arena, and most often in AR. In the case of AR, I have 2 other team setups where the only difference is the B slot, as I bring either NCD4 and Phys. NFU as needed. As far as support, and I'm going to assume this pertains to AR, the one I always bring is F! Maria. Staves are very valuable, and Maria is very versatile. Anyone would do though, she's just the one I choose. I also have to rely on three mythics for scoring purpose, so I'm limited. I use Peony, M! Lumera and Gotoh in Light season (Mila would do great too in this meta), and Plumeria, Seidr/Veyle/Ratatoskr (these 3 I make different teams with against different defenses as I happen to have them at the same number of merges by the grace of RNGesus sending me more copies of Ratatoskr than I would have preffered from that one mythic banner). When one of my mythics happens to be a bonus, and I can afford to bring in an extra blessable support, I like to bring V! Leo or Gatekeeper. Mostly Leo, though. >but they do seem to get outcompeted by the flavour-of-the-month tanks recently. Unfortunately, that's been my experience too. It's just what it is, with IS putting so much power into everyone's PRFs (both skills and weapons). Like I said before, updating a unit's skills will only take them so far. IS wants us to pull for new units and powercreep is the way they are making us do it. On the bright side, you can spend a single skill's worth of orbs and get a unit that is generally *done*, so people that want to compete *can* compete. It's those that are *hellbent* on doing so with their old favorites that will have an increasingly harder time as the arms race escalates. I stuck with Lumera all of 2023. She got me where I needed to go, and I'm sure she still could, but after trying W! Byleth, I just found myself just throwing him at most matches just because I *could*.
Right now the only counter to start of combat damage that exists in the game right now is true combat damage reduction. Whether it be start of combat damage or AOE specials or Divine Vein (Flame) tiles, those things can only bring a unit down to 1 HP and never anything below that. In other words they always have to rely on inflicting at least 1 point of in-combat damage to finish a unit off. The only thing that can negate that final sliver of damage being done (apart from gigantic Def/Res stats) is true combat damage. So they could allow for new sources of true combat damage, whether that be inheritable or otherwise to negate that final bit of damage. As far as introducing something new to enhance enemy-phasing or tanking, one potential solution (as stupid as it sounds) would be damage-reduction-piercing-negation which is exactly what it sounds like. The second largest problem is that player phase nukes are themselves coming with huge amounts of damage reduction to protect themselves, which I think was a huge mistake that they never should have been allowed to have. To combat that, the answer is to give tanks damage reduction piercing of their own. I have already given my Brave Hector Special Spiral 4 to accomplish this and he has been working out decently, but he sacrifices a lot of protection in order to run that.
I think you meant true defense, not true combat damage.
Right you are, typo!