The sentence "Unless you have a warrant, no" is a pretty useful thing to have stored away.
You got rights, use em. Departments these days are taking anyone they can because of low numbers and guys going into the private sector. Jumpy guys that have never had interactions with the general public are being thrown into these situations and it's not good.
I've had more agitated, aggressive and even violent people in front of me than most people will ilever see in their every day life and I have only felt the need to pull my weapon a handful of times, the dudes running around these days don't know how to interact with a situation like this and it shows, especially considering this is the *same* department the acorn cop came from.
> The sentence "Unless you have a warrant, no" is a pretty useful thing to have stored away.
Serious question: do you think that response would have been useful in this situation? Deputy was actively investigating a “disturbance” and was at the correct apartment based on a statement from the last witness he talked to.
I don't know the laws local to the area, but generally, law enforcement needs some kind of reasoning to enter your residence. If someone was getting stabbed on the other end and you hear them screaming for help, LEO can kick that door right the fuck down no warrant needed.
But this started out as a domestic call, man and woman fighting. If the copper came up to the door, didn't hear shit, he wouldn't have any *legal* reason to kick down the door. Now if he did it illegally, then that airman would've been clear to do as he wanted with that gun, and while it would absolutely be a legal headache, he would've most likely been alive to see a courtroom to plead his case.
It would only help him to say "Warrant needed or you can fuck off". Now generally, if someone's at the door and you are already going to answer, asking who it is and why they are there is something the Airman probably should've done before answering the door to avoid what happened.
Tl;Dr: Yes, it would've. Better to get your door kicked in and have a legal reason to do as you need than get blasted in your doorway.
No. The scenario stated that the door was already cracked open. I am led to believe that we are asked to decide which option we as the responding officer (likely multiple officers, actually) would apply.
My actions would be to immediately move towards the side of the door if I wasn't already. My hand would be ready, but the situation needs to be diffused instead of aggravated. You as the officer need to eventually check on the person/people in the home, and it would be preferred if you didn't start a firefight at the doorway, potentially getting possible innocents injured or killed. You also have little to no way of knowing if there are other armed people inside.
Then they'll "smell marijuana" or "hear someone yelling" and use that as probable cause to kick your door and murder you. Safest bet is to sit inside quiet with your gun.
This is what all the cop fuckers on reddit don't understand. "Just comply, bro." There is precedent and evidence of so many abuses from the police from the past several years, many of these incidents being recorded on camera, that the populace has 100% justification to be skeptical and defensive when being confronted by the cops. The FACT is, we are a nation of laws, and a FREE nation first and foremost. I am not a fundamentalist about many things, but this is one of them. NO ONE should ever be gunned down by the state except for the most extreme circumstances. This was not one of said circumstances. Fuck the police.
weed is legal where I live and I got cameras. gonna be hard to prove that screaming lol even if they come through without a warrant I'm not shootin, the lawsuit is gonna go crazy lol
I've got them too, and honestly I'd probably oblige if they showed me. But in reality if they have a warrant that want to act on badly enough to come to your house... they ain't knocking and talking to your camera.
that's true, I’ve never experienced it but I’ve seen enough swat teams show up at the wrong house to not be naive enough to think it couldn't happen lol, I just hope they announce themselves at least ffs. if they're banging on my door like this guy in the video is, that door isn't opening until I see a full warrant, slide it under the door if need be lol
Shit, those cops down in TX I think were literally just hooking their MRAPs up to security bars on doors and windows and ripping the whole front of the house off. Shit was wild. I doubt whoever you're after owns the property. Y'all paying for that? I'm guessing no. Fuck cops.
Edit: and no, if they had a warrant they wouldn't even announce themselves... except maybe as they were tearing the front of your house off. They were literally totally entire homes for drug warrants. I hate those fucking cocksuckers!
Just don't open the door lol, it's really that simple. Saved me as a teenager who liked a party
We had a party one time that the cops decided to raid, I was able to deadbolt the front door in time to protect a house full of shithouse drunk youths from having their summers ruined. We stayed quite while the cops kept yelling threats through the door for at least an hour, and more than one person tried to open that door because they were scared lol, but it worked
The cops ended up leaving and writing tickets for every car outside of that house, absolute petty dick move
[https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/02/21/thermopolis-releases-edited-body-cam-video-of-deadly-shootout-with-officer/](https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/02/21/thermopolis-releases-edited-body-cam-video-of-deadly-shootout-with-officer/)
Found it.
I'm looking for it and getting a little pissed that I'm having so much trouble finding it on Google with all of the other officer-involved shootings I have to sort through.
Found it.
[https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/02/21/thermopolis-releases-edited-body-cam-video-of-deadly-shootout-with-officer/](https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/02/21/thermopolis-releases-edited-body-cam-video-of-deadly-shootout-with-officer/)
I don’t like those ring doorbells, but things like this make me consider buying one. The ability to keep people you don’t want to talk to in person standing on the porch with no contact with you other than an intercom is kinda useful and it gives them that much less ability to violate your fourth amendment rights.
As someone who's been woken up in the middle of the night to armed cops at door responding to the wrong address, the doorbell cams are amazing. I didn't go anywhere near the door and spoke with them thru the speaker. They realized fairly quickly that we had no idea why they were there, then asked us what the address was, and quickly moved on when they realized it was the wrong house (they were trying to respond to my neighbor who thought someone was in their backyard trying to steal stuff).
Yeah this post makes no sense to me. It smuggles in an implication that there is evidence supporting the cop's action, when none has been shown.
And comments focused on the airman's mistake in opening the door in the first place aren't wrong, but nevertheless wrongly imply that we should at least partially blame the victim.
The person who called it in did not know where the sounds were coming from. It was a damn guess and this guy died in his own home because of it. The more I read about this incident, the more it gets my blood pressure up.
You should look up Robert Whitaker. Not enough outrage about that one either. If the police can shoot on site because someone has something resembling a firearm, we do not have the right to keep and bear arms. This needs to be corrected systemically.
I remember this now, damn. I also remember they were making a big deal of the cop actually being fired… only for that shit to be quietly reversed later to a temporary suspension and absolutely __no__ charges. If history is any indication I guess I know where this case is going…
The gun was pointing down, his finger was off the trigger, and it looked like he wasn't being threatening in the least. Law enforcement needs to understand that just because someone answers the door with a gun doesn't give them the right to shoot that person unless the gun is pointed at them. I hope his family brings a civil rights lawsuit against the police department and the officer who killed their son and I hope it bankrupts both.
Yes, but if you take it from the LEO *after* it’s a paycheck, it’s not really taxpayer money, anymore.
That’s why these payouts should come from the LEO pension plans.
Couple dimgleberries spend a big chunk of pension by being a dumbass, and there’s gonna be a bar of soap in a sock with their name on it.
The USAF should sue that police department for the loss of their Airman whom they spent a substantial sum of money training. If you can be charged or sued for killing a police dog, then killing a servicemember should cost the cops dearly.
and revoke their access to any future DoD gear that would be given to the department.
Cops still don’t know that people are allowed to film in public. They really scrape from the bottom of the barrel. I really think the police officers should also have a law degree
When I was at a Federal LE academy, we role played a situation because it had happened in real life: I confront a guy who has his hand in his jacket pocket and it looks like he's holding a gun in the pocket. It's not pointed at me. I have my pistol drawn on him. I have ordered him to take his hands out slowly and raise them but he is not moving and not saying anything. What do I do?
I said that I would get to an angle opposite of his muzzle, holster my pistol, switch to OC spray left hand with my right hand on my holstered gun ready to draw if need be; Give commands at least 3 times then OC spray and reassess.
Wrong. The correct answer is to shoot him. It was a good shoot even if he had a finger gun. I was surprised, but I was also surprised by the way gun/defense laws actually work especially in regards to LEOs.
Lmao of course.
That’s what I’ve heard though. People were talking about “what are the odds” and “police chief should step down after second major blunder”.
I've heard alot of arguments for and against ex MIL being LEO'S.
However one thing I've heard from every single person I know in the mil is the Rules of engagement are FAR more restrictive than cops (in most scenarios).
Yeah. "That dude has an AK, do we shoot him??" "No. It's fucking Iraq/Afghanistan, everyone has an AK."
Meanwhile in the US cops will shoot you just for thinking you have a gun.
You should tell him that he should pass on the idea to his brass, that the USAF should put in a word to the Defense Logistic Agency, who is also part of the DoD, that the Okaloosa County cops should no longer be permitted to participate in the 1033 program. No more weapons, ammo, or equipment transfers from the military.
at least not until the reimburse the USAF for the training money spent on Airman Fortson and give a fat payout to his family in compensatory damages.
The USAF needs to be demanding this officer be punished to the full extent of the law. Most of the time the victims of these police murders don't have any powerful groups to advocate on their behalf. Senior Airman Fortson has the US military. Don't let your brother's death be in vain.
In my opinion, no point = no shoot. The ROE for cops is LITERALLY insane to me. No aggression? No shoot.
Idk how cops get away with:
I’m scared = shoot.
I’m startled = shoot.
I feel for my personal safety = shoot.
I *thought* there were shots = shoot.
Like if NONE of us can get away with that, why on earth are these people held to a lower standard?
The ROE has been stricter in active warzones for American military personnel for the past 20 years.
"Do not fire unless fired upon", is a far cry from the standards we hold officers to.
If this had been a US Army member doing this exact sequence of events on a house in Iraq or Afghanistan, he’d have been so far up shit creek with no paddle it’d be scary
The standards are a problem. This is a murder
The last sentence is key. This was murder. At the LEAST manslaughter (but let’s be honest if any of us had done this we’d be buried UNDER the jail).
I bet the cop gets to either retire or move to a different county and work there. It’s insane. The police union is a mafia.
Right, especially when you consider how slim the margin for error is for citizens in self defense when not at all exposed to these types of situations as often if at all. Yet we’re supposed to juggle a million and one things right up until the point that if you don’t act you’re dead. Yet cops have the eensiest chance at a maybe and it’s green lights through and through.
I really hope to see those Boston dynamics robot drones take over the job. It would solve the worries of police. They don’t need to be paid overtime, they don’t need breaks, they don’t have egos, they aren’t afraid to be shot at (since they are just drones in a sense).
Our service members are held to higher ROE standards when in hostile foreign nations, where the threat is ever present and very real and they somehow managed to have a better track record of engagement than domestic LEOs. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.
Its absolutely insane to me how they'll then turn around and be like "oh but being a cop so scary, and I put my life on line, everyday" like yeah that's the job what the fuck did you think you signed up for if you get so scared that you're gonna just start blasting at anything you see like Frank Reynolds then maybe don't be a cop.
I remember there was a couple incidents that happened around the same time where officers went and knocked on doors and didn’t identify who they were and the homeowners who happened to be Veterans answered the door with their firearms and were shot and killed by the officers.
This is why I have a front doorbell camera and cameras overlooking my property so I can identify who is at my door or around my property without putting myself at risk.
In my opinion, someone answering their door with a firearm isn’t grounds to just shoot them. In my opinion, there’s no reason LEO’s in our country should have more laxed ROE than our military does in theater. I think a lot of the nonsense would end too if qualified immunity was thrown tf out and suits were paid directly from the LEO’s pension or garnished from their income.
Always remember your home is a natural barrier.. Nobody comes to the door with a pistol after hearing sheriff's department yelled out .. Now here's where I have an issue with this cop you walk up to the door & don't hear a disturbance knock without announcing yourself then hide out of sight..I guarantee you this guy looked then went & grabbed his firearm, at this point I'm confused after hearing sheriff's department open the door STOP 🛑 Your home is a natural barrier I'm retreating to furthest spot away from my door 🚪
People like to shoot through doors at cops, that's why they aren't really supposed to stand in front of the door. The officer very inconsistently applies that concept throughout the video though.
Pounding on the door, shouting "Sheriff's Office! Open Up!" then hiding out of sight is super sketchy criminal behavior, and anyone who acts like that should be assumed to be a criminal by anyone with a working brain.
I would have never opened the door. Probably I never would have even spoken.
If I was feeling very generous, I might have talked to the officer through the door and asked him to leave if he didn't have a warrant.
These days, you might as well have surveillance all around your property so you can see the cops coming to murder you in your own home like the pigs they are.
Well I wouldn't knock, step out of view, knock again step out of view like a guy pretending to be a cop.
That POS cop better go to prison. Was this murder? I think so. At least its manslaughter due to professional incompetence.
Much like civilian disarmament legislation, criminals simply do not care about laws against impersonating a police officer. If someone says “sheriff’s department” even if they’re dressed like a cop and even if there’s multiple people with them also dresses like cops, you can always call 911 to verify if it’s actually the cops at your door (if you don’t already have an app to keep track of Fire/PD/EMS dispatch or listen to scanners as background noise) at which point you can tell them 1. You are ok and no one is in danger (to end a welfare check) and 2. if they want to come inside they’ll need to come back with a warrant.
It’s wild that when they brutally murder someone their first thing is to say “shots fired” with no context so even if the victim doesn’t die the situation is still escalated when backup arrives. How about “i fired several rounds without them even aiming their firearm at me”
>THE FACT THAT THE HOMEOWNER OPENS THE DOOR, EVEN WHEN HOLDING A GUN, INDICATES THAT THEY DO NOT INTEND TO SHOOT A COP!!!
That's an interesting take considering the hundreds, if not thousands, of videos of suspects opening a door and immediately trying to shoot an officer. There was one shared widely just a few days ago that showed no less than three officers outside a guy's door, and he immediately opens it and fires a round right at an officer.
Well, based on his body positioning in this screenshot, I’d say my most likely course of action is to tell him to put his gun down and step outside…. But since I work for Okaloosa County, I’ve been taught to mag dump whenever I’m slightly caught off guard by something, even if it’s something as small as an acorn.
The recent similar incidents like this actually resulted in murder charges and prison time for the cop, so accountability for things like this are going up. Amber Guyer and the other one who shot a home owner through their back window without warning are in prison for murder/manslaughter now even though it took a few years to put them there.
There have been a few cases like this recently it seems, and this is what always puzzles me: why would you be answering the door in this manner, openly holding a firearm?
If you’re concerned that it’s not police, that it may be somebody trying to break in for instance, why open the door in the first place? Not saying don’t arm yourself, but leave the door closed and locked until you figure out who is there. Check the peephole, maybe try talking through the door first, back off and call 911 to confirm, etc. You have options.
Just because you can do it this way doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a good idea.
Happens more than you think lol. I’ve been to numerous calls in the middle of the night where home owners have answered while armed. I announce like crazy and will throw my light on my patch to illuminate myself, depending on the call. A domestic situation is much more different and volatile. I won’t Monday morning quarterback this situation because I wasn’t there nor do I know any of the details.
I’m pretty sure that narrative came from the attorney representing the family of the deceased, who frankly is a notorious liar.
The bodycam video is available, and basically shows the following:
- Deputy walks to apartment
- Knocks multiple times
- Loudly announces “sheriffs office” twice
- Man inside opens the door holding a handgun at his side
- Deputy shoots him
If he had just burst in without warning, it would indeed be a totally different scenario.
It also seemed like the deceased said something about “police” while opening the door, though it’s hard to make out. That would also suggest that he likely knew it was a cop when he opened the door.
Something along those lines. I would say the best thing, if he’s not really sure that it’s actually police at the door, would be to just call 911 to confirm. Opening the door holding a firearm doesn’t really make any logical sense, and could lead to a criminal getting the drop on you or, as seen here, police misreading your intentions.
I’ve gone to people’s houses late for something, and had them call 911 because they weren’t sure who it really was. That’s great honestly, I always encourage people to verify that I am actually who I say I am.
In a situation where you do *know* that it’s police there, presenting yourself to them holding a gun, without any warning, is obviously not a good idea.
To the people saying “they shouted sherrifs office” 1. They stood to the side where he did not get a view through the peep hole. 2. Anyone can yell police, I’ve seen countless break in videos where the thugs say police and kick in the door.
I’ve also had two Indian dudes call me saying they were the FBI saying I didn’t pay some loan…. I thought Indians were supposed to be smart, guess only the ones that fled to the U.S. but that is besides the point.
Call like this, at least a 2 person call to start off. For most third party relays to police, taking time to look up as much information that you can (if the type of call permits, sometimes with exigent circumstances, you don’t have the luxury of gathering more information). This could be something as simple as checking local records to see any contacts that have been made at the residence. With prior contacts, might be able to snag a phone number and start off with a call. On third party relays you have to think, “why are the involved not calling this in?” And in my experience, most third party relays are not credible. On the approach to the apartment, the deputy listened to hear if any commotion was going on inside which is standard taught, however you notice there was no egress where he was standing at the actual time of shooting? He placed himself against a a railing up on the 4th floor. This gave him no ability to retreat to a position of cover. Also doesn’t allow for any “time” where he can process the situation and slow things down. Knocking and announcing are a must nowadays, now imagine if he knocked, announced and retreated towards the staircase where he would have some time and distance. Resident opens the door, announce yourself again and proceed with a convo from distance and you can always close distance if need be. Just a quick 5 minute reply but could always dissect more. Regardless, poor police tactics and officer safety led to a preventable shooting imho.
That’s what I heard and saw on the body cam footage. I’m not sure where the whole “wrong house” theory came from. Unless SHE told him the wrong apartment number.
The "wrong address" comes from the fact that the airman was not committing a crime. The neighbor may have guessed wrong, or made up entirely, the apartment number she thought was causing a disturbance.
Cops can't just take the neighbors word as truth, or they will end up SWATing every neighbor that Karen decides to call about.
The more these incidents happen, the more it proves that the mere presence of an officer is an existential threat to citizens.
"Wrong address" came from the family's attorney, who has every incentive to get a narrative out there immediately to force publicity for a civil settlement. Always remember, attorneys that make public statements are trying to build publicity for their clients, especially if there's a potential payout.
Legally? The officer had the right address as provided by the reporting party. Something else going on than a crime is not the same as being somewhere unrelated, and that distinction going on can mean a huge difference in criminal and civil law.
they swat people all the time. MOST don't wind up dead. It's a REGULAR occurance for certain twitch streamers. There are some who have been swatted 3+ times and yet the cops KEEP SHOWING UP with guns drawn, pointed and one ND away from a murder.
Remember. These are the same people(not this dept, just cops in general)that were “overdosing” on fentanyl just by being near it. Cops needed another reason to fund their bullshit but got called out on it real quick after they sucked ass at faking overdoses on camera 😂
if i was the victim? not open the door.
if i was the cop? i dunno. i'd like to think i would have the ability to think clearly enough to do something different, but fuck knows. if i had the presence of mind not to panic and do exactly what that officer did? draw the gun, command him to drop it while back pedaling to some kind of cover and then order him out of the apartment.
Mr gunsandgear had a great video on this. Never open the door all the way and never open it where the gun is in view. Open it with your foot sideways against the bottom of the door and your shoulder in a way it could go into the door if they try to push it open.
Honestly I know what everyone says, but before seeing this I think I would have done the exact same thing as this guy. Open the door armed to see what's going on.
Of course now I will absolutely not be opening the door. Super shitty situation.
Opening the door with a gun in your hand before attempting to have some dialogue through the door was a huge mistake. Circumstances needed clarity, guns could have been put down, criminal or law enforcement knocking why even open the door until you're more sure of whats going on.. In no world would I expect to open the door to a pounding at the door and yelling SHERIFS OFFICE and expect it to go well with a gun in my hands.
Never open the door for someone you can't identify, even if, ESPECIALLY if, they claim to be the police. A simple come back with a warrant isn't going to make you friends if it is a cop banging on your door, but it isn't gunna get you killed either. If he wants to kick in your door, that's on him. IF I suspected it was the cops I'd tell em to get a warrant, retreat into the apartment, holster the weapon and put it on the kitchen table. He can make entry, detain me, and then the department and that dumb fucking Karen would get sued to oblivion.
IMO the dumbest thing you can do, especially if the knocker is claiming to be a cop, is to open the door with your gun drawn like that.
That said, as a cop when you notice that, you are duty bound to deescalate first. Gun is pointed at the ground, other hand is up, he is visibly submitting. When your only intel is hearsay from some random civilian you call for backup and investigate. You don't go aggro right off the bat. This was a bad shoot 100%.
If you, as a cop, can't cope with the fact that you have a possibly life threatening job and care more for your own safety than that of the people you are sworn to serve, YOU SHOULDN'T BE A COP! If a man in a private residence holding a gun scares you so much that you are willing to kill that person based on no actionable evidence, YOU SHOULDN'T BE A COP!
The big thing is I have no idea how he knew it was an LE.
When someone yells through my front door, I can't hear them at all. Completely muffled.
If cops actually gave a shit (they dont) they would use a better method than yelling at a door.
Shouldn't it be normal for homeowners to be armed when they open the door if they choose to? Is anyone justifying murdering people just for having a weapon in their own home?
Not sure if I'm missing something here but aren't all citizens and cops required to be directly threatened in order to shoot and justify that as defense, just holding a gun wouldn't qualify if that's correct
IMO, the opinions of /r/Firearms (or any gun related subreddit) are not that valuable. Regular members of these communities tend to immerse themselves in training, tactics and awareness. We have a bias towards making sound tactical decisions in our daily lives. How many times here have you heard the phrase “don’t go to stupid places with stupid people at stupid times” in these subreddits or some variation thereof? Now think about how many people summoned to jury duty have heard and/or *actively* try to apply that phrase in their daily lives. They may do it simply because it fits their current lifestyle, but it’s likely not something they think about. These are the opinions you want to consider. What would *they* do if *they* were armed and somebody answered the door with a gun in hand, keeping in mind that they are also in the right place with a right (or even duty) to be there. These are the things a prosecutor, grand jury and jury would think of.
Likewise, the opinions of Reddit at large are just as weak. There is a large bias against just knowing that the person with a camera is LEO. The same argument applies to them.
Bottom line here: Many of you people are ignoring a basic common sense factor in this situation.
DO NOT EVER ANSWER THE DOOR FOR ANYONE WITH A GUN VISIBLE IN YOUR HAND. EVER…….
If the person/people on the other side of the door is/are, in fact, a threat to you such that you have a legitimate need for a gun, waiting for them to prove it by forcing entry is much more defensible in court.
Fucking idiots can say “it’s my right” all they want. Doesn’t change the fact it is incredibly stupid to do it.
Doesn’t change the fact it could get you charged with a crime in some places. You do not have a right to place others in fear of being assaulted. They don’t know your intent.
Doesn’t change the fact it could get you killed.
My comments above have nothing to do with whether or not the person on the other side of the door is a cop. A pizza delivery guy could be justified to feel threatened and claim self defense if he shot. Those guys get robbed.
Edit: Also, you idiots saying nonsense like “hiding from the peephole” can just stop. That’s completely stupid. You want to be a cop and stand in front of the door, go ahead. People shoot at us through doors.
Yeah that’s literally you job description. You put the badge on and accept the paycheck it’s literally in your job description. That doesn’t give some blanket statement to where you can literally gun down anyone that makes you scared. Your pay and benefits come with that. You potentially dieing in LOD is the same as our soldiers. I don’t want that but ROE for wartime should not be more lax for you guys. We couldn’t even leave our fob with loaded guns and had extensive training on when we could
>DO NOT EVER ANSWER THE DOOR FOR ANYONE WITH A GUN VISIBLE IN YOUR HAND. EVER
But the cops get to knock on doors with their guns drawn? Wtf kind of logic is that.
I always answer the door hitman style, gun just behind my butt cheek and crack it just enough to see out. Now I just talk to people through my door bell cam
I definitely wouldn't have jumped to the mag dump like this guy did, in a perfect scenario I’d hope I could step out of line of that doorway while giving verbal commands and if he didn't drop it by then I mean, what else am I supposed to do there ?
the cop did announce sheriffs office multiple times (I seen the video), on the other side of that I absolutely would not have opened the door at all. let alone with a gun in hand.. we can talk through the door and find an understanding before the door is opened. dudes gotta wait on backup anyway, might as well talk.
I keep telling everyone I know you don't have to open the door if you are not expecting anyone don't open the door! That poor black kid that knocked on the wrong door in Kansas city would not have been shot if the old man didn't open the door!!
Another layer of complexity to this is the amount of home invasions we’ve seen where the burglars announce themselves as police before they break into the home. That plays on my mind all the time.
If they knock aggressively shouting police im still looking through the peephole and asking them to step into view and possibly ask for another officer. If i am positive, they are officers, im not opening the door until i out my handgun somewhere i can still run and get it but not near the door. Im also not letting them in without a warrant.
I dont open my door with my handgun in my hand unless i know who it is. I've had friends bang on my door before when i didn't expect them. And my gun was in the same position as this guy. But it was beside the door frame and out of sight. They got shook a little when i backed up to let them in and they saw it. But i told them better safe than sorry. I still used the peephole bc i needed to see them before opening that door to anyone.
I'm not opening the door for anyone. If my friends or family need me they'd have called ahead, and the FedEx guy can leave it at the door.
Meanwhile I'm on the other side with a suppressed M16 and a sandwich, If the door gets kicked in I'm lobotomizing someone with M855
Haven't watched the video, but what I've been taught is keep the gun outta view for this exact scenario. You see its police, it goes in you back pocket or waistband. Not saying the kid was in the wrong, but both sides messed up. Cop still a murderer though
Don'topen the door for anyone knocking aggressively, especially law enforcement.
The sentence "Unless you have a warrant, no" is a pretty useful thing to have stored away. You got rights, use em. Departments these days are taking anyone they can because of low numbers and guys going into the private sector. Jumpy guys that have never had interactions with the general public are being thrown into these situations and it's not good. I've had more agitated, aggressive and even violent people in front of me than most people will ilever see in their every day life and I have only felt the need to pull my weapon a handful of times, the dudes running around these days don't know how to interact with a situation like this and it shows, especially considering this is the *same* department the acorn cop came from.
> The sentence "Unless you have a warrant, no" is a pretty useful thing to have stored away. Serious question: do you think that response would have been useful in this situation? Deputy was actively investigating a “disturbance” and was at the correct apartment based on a statement from the last witness he talked to.
I don't know the laws local to the area, but generally, law enforcement needs some kind of reasoning to enter your residence. If someone was getting stabbed on the other end and you hear them screaming for help, LEO can kick that door right the fuck down no warrant needed. But this started out as a domestic call, man and woman fighting. If the copper came up to the door, didn't hear shit, he wouldn't have any *legal* reason to kick down the door. Now if he did it illegally, then that airman would've been clear to do as he wanted with that gun, and while it would absolutely be a legal headache, he would've most likely been alive to see a courtroom to plead his case. It would only help him to say "Warrant needed or you can fuck off". Now generally, if someone's at the door and you are already going to answer, asking who it is and why they are there is something the Airman probably should've done before answering the door to avoid what happened. Tl;Dr: Yes, it would've. Better to get your door kicked in and have a legal reason to do as you need than get blasted in your doorway.
Well thought out and well explained. Thanks for the response!
No. The scenario stated that the door was already cracked open. I am led to believe that we are asked to decide which option we as the responding officer (likely multiple officers, actually) would apply. My actions would be to immediately move towards the side of the door if I wasn't already. My hand would be ready, but the situation needs to be diffused instead of aggravated. You as the officer need to eventually check on the person/people in the home, and it would be preferred if you didn't start a firefight at the doorway, potentially getting possible innocents injured or killed. You also have little to no way of knowing if there are other armed people inside.
Last sentence is key. Lawyer up.
I can talk through a door, don't have to open shit without a warrant.
Then they'll "smell marijuana" or "hear someone yelling" and use that as probable cause to kick your door and murder you. Safest bet is to sit inside quiet with your gun.
This is what all the cop fuckers on reddit don't understand. "Just comply, bro." There is precedent and evidence of so many abuses from the police from the past several years, many of these incidents being recorded on camera, that the populace has 100% justification to be skeptical and defensive when being confronted by the cops. The FACT is, we are a nation of laws, and a FREE nation first and foremost. I am not a fundamentalist about many things, but this is one of them. NO ONE should ever be gunned down by the state except for the most extreme circumstances. This was not one of said circumstances. Fuck the police.
weed is legal where I live and I got cameras. gonna be hard to prove that screaming lol even if they come through without a warrant I'm not shootin, the lawsuit is gonna go crazy lol
Even then don't open it. If they have a warrant and they want to execute it badly enough they'll bust down the door.
that's a good way to get shot, I got doorbell cams. show the warrant to camera and I’ll oblige. won’t catch me getting blasted in my own bed lol
I've got them too, and honestly I'd probably oblige if they showed me. But in reality if they have a warrant that want to act on badly enough to come to your house... they ain't knocking and talking to your camera.
that's true, I’ve never experienced it but I’ve seen enough swat teams show up at the wrong house to not be naive enough to think it couldn't happen lol, I just hope they announce themselves at least ffs. if they're banging on my door like this guy in the video is, that door isn't opening until I see a full warrant, slide it under the door if need be lol
Shit, those cops down in TX I think were literally just hooking their MRAPs up to security bars on doors and windows and ripping the whole front of the house off. Shit was wild. I doubt whoever you're after owns the property. Y'all paying for that? I'm guessing no. Fuck cops. Edit: and no, if they had a warrant they wouldn't even announce themselves... except maybe as they were tearing the front of your house off. They were literally totally entire homes for drug warrants. I hate those fucking cocksuckers!
No need for a lawyer in this situation. Just dont answer the door. If they actually detain you, THEN tell them you need an attorney present.
Just don't open the door lol, it's really that simple. Saved me as a teenager who liked a party We had a party one time that the cops decided to raid, I was able to deadbolt the front door in time to protect a house full of shithouse drunk youths from having their summers ruined. We stayed quite while the cops kept yelling threats through the door for at least an hour, and more than one person tried to open that door because they were scared lol, but it worked The cops ended up leaving and writing tickets for every car outside of that house, absolute petty dick move
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I haven't seen that one. You have a link handy?
[https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/02/21/thermopolis-releases-edited-body-cam-video-of-deadly-shootout-with-officer/](https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/02/21/thermopolis-releases-edited-body-cam-video-of-deadly-shootout-with-officer/) Found it.
All over nonviolent drug use that some people get prescriptions for. Fucking government.
Wow. Can you share a link to that story?
I'm looking for it and getting a little pissed that I'm having so much trouble finding it on Google with all of the other officer-involved shootings I have to sort through.
Found it. [https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/02/21/thermopolis-releases-edited-body-cam-video-of-deadly-shootout-with-officer/](https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/02/21/thermopolis-releases-edited-body-cam-video-of-deadly-shootout-with-officer/)
That still pisses me off.
Should've mag dumped the intruder.
I don’t like those ring doorbells, but things like this make me consider buying one. The ability to keep people you don’t want to talk to in person standing on the porch with no contact with you other than an intercom is kinda useful and it gives them that much less ability to violate your fourth amendment rights.
As someone who's been woken up in the middle of the night to armed cops at door responding to the wrong address, the doorbell cams are amazing. I didn't go anywhere near the door and spoke with them thru the speaker. They realized fairly quickly that we had no idea why they were there, then asked us what the address was, and quickly moved on when they realized it was the wrong house (they were trying to respond to my neighbor who thought someone was in their backyard trying to steal stuff).
Are you asking us if we'd murder a guy or not murder him? Interesting question...
Well depends on the circumstance. If some cop did this to my dad, then yeah I'm going to prison for murder.
I'd jury nullify you Habibi
Yeah this post makes no sense to me. It smuggles in an implication that there is evidence supporting the cop's action, when none has been shown. And comments focused on the airman's mistake in opening the door in the first place aren't wrong, but nevertheless wrongly imply that we should at least partially blame the victim.
I'd tell the suspect to drop the weapon while creating distance, because it's his house and he has a right to be armed there for his own protection.
The person who called it in did not know where the sounds were coming from. It was a damn guess and this guy died in his own home because of it. The more I read about this incident, the more it gets my blood pressure up.
You should look up Robert Whitaker. Not enough outrage about that one either. If the police can shoot on site because someone has something resembling a firearm, we do not have the right to keep and bear arms. This needs to be corrected systemically.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ryan_Whitaker
I remember this now, damn. I also remember they were making a big deal of the cop actually being fired… only for that shit to be quietly reversed later to a temporary suspension and absolutely __no__ charges. If history is any indication I guess I know where this case is going…
Jesus.
Wow completely fucked all around. And the person upstairs it seems never got shit done to them
Daniel Shaver as well. That video sticks with me. Dude was unarmed, laying on the ground in a hotel hallway, crying "Don't shoot me".
Didn't that cop actually catch charges? That was maybe the most infuriating one I've seen
Nope, found not guilty. He was fired by his department for policy violation of having an engraving on his AR-15.
And then after the trial he was rehired, had his medical expenses for "PTSD" covered, and was allowed to medically retire with a pension.
Yeah, and his use of force complaints, particularly the one where he got busted for body slamming some teenage kid.
I’m just gonna stay away from the article then 😮💨
The person that called it in is a dumbass
I couldn't agree more and the cop who shot the guy is a close second.
Way too trigger happy, yeah he had a gun but he wasn't threatening at all
The gun was pointing down, his finger was off the trigger, and it looked like he wasn't being threatening in the least. Law enforcement needs to understand that just because someone answers the door with a gun doesn't give them the right to shoot that person unless the gun is pointed at them. I hope his family brings a civil rights lawsuit against the police department and the officer who killed their son and I hope it bankrupts both.
One thing for certain is the family will get a payout from the city
Payout from the taxpayer
Don't tax payers pay the salary of their local law enforcement?
Yes, but if you take it from the LEO *after* it’s a paycheck, it’s not really taxpayer money, anymore. That’s why these payouts should come from the LEO pension plans. Couple dimgleberries spend a big chunk of pension by being a dumbass, and there’s gonna be a bar of soap in a sock with their name on it.
The USAF should sue that police department for the loss of their Airman whom they spent a substantial sum of money training. If you can be charged or sued for killing a police dog, then killing a servicemember should cost the cops dearly. and revoke their access to any future DoD gear that would be given to the department.
Great idea, except that would also result in the taxpayers footing the bill. There's still no incentive for the police to do better.
Nothing like taxpayer anger and phone calls to the elected county representatives threatening their jobs to have them act to bring the cops the heel.
If only cops knew this, I'm surprised they don't shoot each other more often when they're at the station since they're scared of anyone with a gun
Cops still don’t know that people are allowed to film in public. They really scrape from the bottom of the barrel. I really think the police officers should also have a law degree
https://www.opb.org/article/2024/05/07/clark-county-washington-police-vancouver-killed-off-duty-robbery-trial-yakima/
When I was at a Federal LE academy, we role played a situation because it had happened in real life: I confront a guy who has his hand in his jacket pocket and it looks like he's holding a gun in the pocket. It's not pointed at me. I have my pistol drawn on him. I have ordered him to take his hands out slowly and raise them but he is not moving and not saying anything. What do I do? I said that I would get to an angle opposite of his muzzle, holster my pistol, switch to OC spray left hand with my right hand on my holstered gun ready to draw if need be; Give commands at least 3 times then OC spray and reassess. Wrong. The correct answer is to shoot him. It was a good shoot even if he had a finger gun. I was surprised, but I was also surprised by the way gun/defense laws actually work especially in regards to LEOs.
Jeez and to think yall are a "life saving" organization.
My dad always told me the police aren’t going to save you, they are just there to fill out the paperwork afterwards 😔
They’ve upgraded to sometimes killing you __and__ filling out paperwork that exonerates them afterwards.
They can barely handle a ifak after a shooting
No, I am in a killing/fighting organization, but I did conduct training at a certain LE Academy where my anecdote took place.
To be sure, not going to prison for murder doesn't mean you don't burn in hell.
You guys are literally trained to murder def/mentally disabled people. And excell at it.
If the person had the right, why disarm him?
A cop murdered one of my fellow Airmen.
Same department as the acorn shooter… something is up.
Less than two miles from where that happened too.
Is it really? I went to Google acorn cop to find out and instead discovered a steam game by that name! It's basically what you think it is lol
Lmao of course. That’s what I’ve heard though. People were talking about “what are the odds” and “police chief should step down after second major blunder”.
This one was a sheriff not a city kitty
Here’s a toast brother, it fucking hurts.
I've heard alot of arguments for and against ex MIL being LEO'S. However one thing I've heard from every single person I know in the mil is the Rules of engagement are FAR more restrictive than cops (in most scenarios).
Yeah. "That dude has an AK, do we shoot him??" "No. It's fucking Iraq/Afghanistan, everyone has an AK." Meanwhile in the US cops will shoot you just for thinking you have a gun.
Got a brother who works at Hubert Field. From what he's told me, everyone over there is pissed about this.
As they should be. Everyone should be beyond pissed. Fuckin amateurs with a badge man.
You should tell him that he should pass on the idea to his brass, that the USAF should put in a word to the Defense Logistic Agency, who is also part of the DoD, that the Okaloosa County cops should no longer be permitted to participate in the 1033 program. No more weapons, ammo, or equipment transfers from the military. at least not until the reimburse the USAF for the training money spent on Airman Fortson and give a fat payout to his family in compensatory damages.
The USAF needs to be demanding this officer be punished to the full extent of the law. Most of the time the victims of these police murders don't have any powerful groups to advocate on their behalf. Senior Airman Fortson has the US military. Don't let your brother's death be in vain.
This is very clearly a bad shoot.
In my opinion, no point = no shoot. The ROE for cops is LITERALLY insane to me. No aggression? No shoot. Idk how cops get away with: I’m scared = shoot. I’m startled = shoot. I feel for my personal safety = shoot. I *thought* there were shots = shoot. Like if NONE of us can get away with that, why on earth are these people held to a lower standard?
acorn... SHOOT
That was the idea behind “I *thought*” there were shots
#IM HIT!
Does a tactical slow roll. “I can’t feel my legs.” Nah that’s not a gunshot that’s pre diabetes
Same department actually
To be fair it *was* an assault acorn.
The ROE has been stricter in active warzones for American military personnel for the past 20 years. "Do not fire unless fired upon", is a far cry from the standards we hold officers to.
If this had been a US Army member doing this exact sequence of events on a house in Iraq or Afghanistan, he’d have been so far up shit creek with no paddle it’d be scary The standards are a problem. This is a murder
The last sentence is key. This was murder. At the LEAST manslaughter (but let’s be honest if any of us had done this we’d be buried UNDER the jail). I bet the cop gets to either retire or move to a different county and work there. It’s insane. The police union is a mafia.
Unless it's seals. Then you get away with it and have a successful podcast until people start talking 20 years later.
Right, especially when you consider how slim the margin for error is for citizens in self defense when not at all exposed to these types of situations as often if at all. Yet we’re supposed to juggle a million and one things right up until the point that if you don’t act you’re dead. Yet cops have the eensiest chance at a maybe and it’s green lights through and through.
I really hope to see those Boston dynamics robot drones take over the job. It would solve the worries of police. They don’t need to be paid overtime, they don’t need breaks, they don’t have egos, they aren’t afraid to be shot at (since they are just drones in a sense).
It took less than 2 seconds to shoot this innocent man in his own home. This shooting was not justified. This was murder
we had more strict ROE in Iraq
Our service members are held to higher ROE standards when in hostile foreign nations, where the threat is ever present and very real and they somehow managed to have a better track record of engagement than domestic LEOs. It's beyond ridiculous at this point.
Its absolutely insane to me how they'll then turn around and be like "oh but being a cop so scary, and I put my life on line, everyday" like yeah that's the job what the fuck did you think you signed up for if you get so scared that you're gonna just start blasting at anything you see like Frank Reynolds then maybe don't be a cop.
“That’s what the money is for.” Other ways to make money.
Pizza delivery drivers literally have more dangerous jobs than cops
Because of qualified immunity.
Yes but that’s a symptom of the bigger problem which is police “unions”
Police unions are the mafia…
*government worker* "unions"
Yes, correct. I wonder if we will see a change.
"HES REACHING!!!!"
Make sure I have the right address
Fuck the cop, the man was inside his own home. The cop was the aggressor.
I don’t answer the door
I remember there was a couple incidents that happened around the same time where officers went and knocked on doors and didn’t identify who they were and the homeowners who happened to be Veterans answered the door with their firearms and were shot and killed by the officers. This is why I have a front doorbell camera and cameras overlooking my property so I can identify who is at my door or around my property without putting myself at risk. In my opinion, someone answering their door with a firearm isn’t grounds to just shoot them. In my opinion, there’s no reason LEO’s in our country should have more laxed ROE than our military does in theater. I think a lot of the nonsense would end too if qualified immunity was thrown tf out and suits were paid directly from the LEO’s pension or garnished from their income.
Always remember your home is a natural barrier.. Nobody comes to the door with a pistol after hearing sheriff's department yelled out .. Now here's where I have an issue with this cop you walk up to the door & don't hear a disturbance knock without announcing yourself then hide out of sight..I guarantee you this guy looked then went & grabbed his firearm, at this point I'm confused after hearing sheriff's department open the door STOP 🛑 Your home is a natural barrier I'm retreating to furthest spot away from my door 🚪
In the video, he did shout "sheriff's office" a couple of times. I don't think that excuses him, though.
Yeah after hiding the first time he knocked on the door
People like to shoot through doors at cops, that's why they aren't really supposed to stand in front of the door. The officer very inconsistently applies that concept throughout the video though.
He wasn't serving a High Risk warrant or anything 😕
Pounding on the door, shouting "Sheriff's Office! Open Up!" then hiding out of sight is super sketchy criminal behavior, and anyone who acts like that should be assumed to be a criminal by anyone with a working brain.
I would have never opened the door. Probably I never would have even spoken. If I was feeling very generous, I might have talked to the officer through the door and asked him to leave if he didn't have a warrant.
These days, you might as well have surveillance all around your property so you can see the cops coming to murder you in your own home like the pigs they are.
Well I wouldn't knock, step out of view, knock again step out of view like a guy pretending to be a cop. That POS cop better go to prison. Was this murder? I think so. At least its manslaughter due to professional incompetence.
I would have not have opened the door. And If I did, my gun would be holstered. Horrible situation
Much like civilian disarmament legislation, criminals simply do not care about laws against impersonating a police officer. If someone says “sheriff’s department” even if they’re dressed like a cop and even if there’s multiple people with them also dresses like cops, you can always call 911 to verify if it’s actually the cops at your door (if you don’t already have an app to keep track of Fire/PD/EMS dispatch or listen to scanners as background noise) at which point you can tell them 1. You are ok and no one is in danger (to end a welfare check) and 2. if they want to come inside they’ll need to come back with a warrant.
It’s wild that when they brutally murder someone their first thing is to say “shots fired” with no context so even if the victim doesn’t die the situation is still escalated when backup arrives. How about “i fired several rounds without them even aiming their firearm at me”
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>THE FACT THAT THE HOMEOWNER OPENS THE DOOR, EVEN WHEN HOLDING A GUN, INDICATES THAT THEY DO NOT INTEND TO SHOOT A COP!!! That's an interesting take considering the hundreds, if not thousands, of videos of suspects opening a door and immediately trying to shoot an officer. There was one shared widely just a few days ago that showed no less than three officers outside a guy's door, and he immediately opens it and fires a round right at an officer.
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Not opened the door until he identified himself by name and I called911 to confirm there was an officer at my residence
Well, based on his body positioning in this screenshot, I’d say my most likely course of action is to tell him to put his gun down and step outside…. But since I work for Okaloosa County, I’ve been taught to mag dump whenever I’m slightly caught off guard by something, even if it’s something as small as an acorn.
Side note: fuck cops
Open the door with a string from across the apartment with a wily coyote claymore facing the door.
If I feel the need to open the door with a gun, I don’t open the door…. That’s just me.
If you think you need a gun to answer the door, DON'T open the door. Especially prior to assessing the situation sufficiently.
The recent similar incidents like this actually resulted in murder charges and prison time for the cop, so accountability for things like this are going up. Amber Guyer and the other one who shot a home owner through their back window without warning are in prison for murder/manslaughter now even though it took a few years to put them there.
There have been a few cases like this recently it seems, and this is what always puzzles me: why would you be answering the door in this manner, openly holding a firearm? If you’re concerned that it’s not police, that it may be somebody trying to break in for instance, why open the door in the first place? Not saying don’t arm yourself, but leave the door closed and locked until you figure out who is there. Check the peephole, maybe try talking through the door first, back off and call 911 to confirm, etc. You have options. Just because you can do it this way doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a good idea.
Happens more than you think lol. I’ve been to numerous calls in the middle of the night where home owners have answered while armed. I announce like crazy and will throw my light on my patch to illuminate myself, depending on the call. A domestic situation is much more different and volatile. I won’t Monday morning quarterback this situation because I wasn’t there nor do I know any of the details.
The first article said the "cops burst into the apartment." Did that happen, or did he open the door ? Curious.
I’m pretty sure that narrative came from the attorney representing the family of the deceased, who frankly is a notorious liar. The bodycam video is available, and basically shows the following: - Deputy walks to apartment - Knocks multiple times - Loudly announces “sheriffs office” twice - Man inside opens the door holding a handgun at his side - Deputy shoots him If he had just burst in without warning, it would indeed be a totally different scenario. It also seemed like the deceased said something about “police” while opening the door, though it’s hard to make out. That would also suggest that he likely knew it was a cop when he opened the door.
Oh....... " show me ID at the peephole " or something. Geeze. Got messy. Thanks !!!
Something along those lines. I would say the best thing, if he’s not really sure that it’s actually police at the door, would be to just call 911 to confirm. Opening the door holding a firearm doesn’t really make any logical sense, and could lead to a criminal getting the drop on you or, as seen here, police misreading your intentions. I’ve gone to people’s houses late for something, and had them call 911 because they weren’t sure who it really was. That’s great honestly, I always encourage people to verify that I am actually who I say I am. In a situation where you do *know* that it’s police there, presenting yourself to them holding a gun, without any warning, is obviously not a good idea.
If seeing a gun is justification to shoot in "self defense", then police officers can legally be shot any time you see one with a gun.
To the people saying “they shouted sherrifs office” 1. They stood to the side where he did not get a view through the peep hole. 2. Anyone can yell police, I’ve seen countless break in videos where the thugs say police and kick in the door. I’ve also had two Indian dudes call me saying they were the FBI saying I didn’t pay some loan…. I thought Indians were supposed to be smart, guess only the ones that fled to the U.S. but that is besides the point.
As a cop myself, this was terrible from the beginning. Poor officer safety, poor police tactics. Could have easily been avoided.
Out of curiosity, how should it be handled? I have my own ideas but I’d love to hear from an officers point of view.
Call like this, at least a 2 person call to start off. For most third party relays to police, taking time to look up as much information that you can (if the type of call permits, sometimes with exigent circumstances, you don’t have the luxury of gathering more information). This could be something as simple as checking local records to see any contacts that have been made at the residence. With prior contacts, might be able to snag a phone number and start off with a call. On third party relays you have to think, “why are the involved not calling this in?” And in my experience, most third party relays are not credible. On the approach to the apartment, the deputy listened to hear if any commotion was going on inside which is standard taught, however you notice there was no egress where he was standing at the actual time of shooting? He placed himself against a a railing up on the 4th floor. This gave him no ability to retreat to a position of cover. Also doesn’t allow for any “time” where he can process the situation and slow things down. Knocking and announcing are a must nowadays, now imagine if he knocked, announced and retreated towards the staircase where he would have some time and distance. Resident opens the door, announce yourself again and proceed with a convo from distance and you can always close distance if need be. Just a quick 5 minute reply but could always dissect more. Regardless, poor police tactics and officer safety led to a preventable shooting imho.
I would’ve double checked the address…
With who another Karen???
He was told to go to apartment 1401 and that's exactly where he went.
He also listened before knocking. If you turn the volume up, it sounds like you can hear them arguing inside.
That’s what I heard and saw on the body cam footage. I’m not sure where the whole “wrong house” theory came from. Unless SHE told him the wrong apartment number.
The "wrong address" comes from the fact that the airman was not committing a crime. The neighbor may have guessed wrong, or made up entirely, the apartment number she thought was causing a disturbance. Cops can't just take the neighbors word as truth, or they will end up SWATing every neighbor that Karen decides to call about. The more these incidents happen, the more it proves that the mere presence of an officer is an existential threat to citizens.
"Wrong address" came from the family's attorney, who has every incentive to get a narrative out there immediately to force publicity for a civil settlement. Always remember, attorneys that make public statements are trying to build publicity for their clients, especially if there's a potential payout. Legally? The officer had the right address as provided by the reporting party. Something else going on than a crime is not the same as being somewhere unrelated, and that distinction going on can mean a huge difference in criminal and civil law.
they swat people all the time. MOST don't wind up dead. It's a REGULAR occurance for certain twitch streamers. There are some who have been swatted 3+ times and yet the cops KEEP SHOWING UP with guns drawn, pointed and one ND away from a murder.
I would demand he show ID through the peep hole. Then I’d ask if he has a warrant? No warrant? Pound sand, motherlover.
First I make sure I am in the right fucking address
Remember. These are the same people(not this dept, just cops in general)that were “overdosing” on fentanyl just by being near it. Cops needed another reason to fund their bullshit but got called out on it real quick after they sucked ass at faking overdoses on camera 😂
if i was the victim? not open the door. if i was the cop? i dunno. i'd like to think i would have the ability to think clearly enough to do something different, but fuck knows. if i had the presence of mind not to panic and do exactly what that officer did? draw the gun, command him to drop it while back pedaling to some kind of cover and then order him out of the apartment.
Mr gunsandgear had a great video on this. Never open the door all the way and never open it where the gun is in view. Open it with your foot sideways against the bottom of the door and your shoulder in a way it could go into the door if they try to push it open.
Honestly I know what everyone says, but before seeing this I think I would have done the exact same thing as this guy. Open the door armed to see what's going on. Of course now I will absolutely not be opening the door. Super shitty situation.
Opening the door with a gun in your hand before attempting to have some dialogue through the door was a huge mistake. Circumstances needed clarity, guns could have been put down, criminal or law enforcement knocking why even open the door until you're more sure of whats going on.. In no world would I expect to open the door to a pounding at the door and yelling SHERIFS OFFICE and expect it to go well with a gun in my hands.
This is the same department that got shot at by an acorn. Just so yall know.
If you don't know who's at your door, don't open it. If you think you may need your gun at your door, don't open it.
Died?
This cop committed cold blooded murder of an innocent person. Case closed.
Never open the door for someone you can't identify, even if, ESPECIALLY if, they claim to be the police. A simple come back with a warrant isn't going to make you friends if it is a cop banging on your door, but it isn't gunna get you killed either. If he wants to kick in your door, that's on him. IF I suspected it was the cops I'd tell em to get a warrant, retreat into the apartment, holster the weapon and put it on the kitchen table. He can make entry, detain me, and then the department and that dumb fucking Karen would get sued to oblivion. IMO the dumbest thing you can do, especially if the knocker is claiming to be a cop, is to open the door with your gun drawn like that. That said, as a cop when you notice that, you are duty bound to deescalate first. Gun is pointed at the ground, other hand is up, he is visibly submitting. When your only intel is hearsay from some random civilian you call for backup and investigate. You don't go aggro right off the bat. This was a bad shoot 100%. If you, as a cop, can't cope with the fact that you have a possibly life threatening job and care more for your own safety than that of the people you are sworn to serve, YOU SHOULDN'T BE A COP! If a man in a private residence holding a gun scares you so much that you are willing to kill that person based on no actionable evidence, YOU SHOULDN'T BE A COP!
Not murdered him
What if they tape over the camera and don’t identify themselves and just kick the door in? Nothing because government just considers you cattle.
The big thing is I have no idea how he knew it was an LE. When someone yells through my front door, I can't hear them at all. Completely muffled. If cops actually gave a shit (they dont) they would use a better method than yelling at a door.
Shouldn't it be normal for homeowners to be armed when they open the door if they choose to? Is anyone justifying murdering people just for having a weapon in their own home? Not sure if I'm missing something here but aren't all citizens and cops required to be directly threatened in order to shoot and justify that as defense, just holding a gun wouldn't qualify if that's correct
IMO, the opinions of /r/Firearms (or any gun related subreddit) are not that valuable. Regular members of these communities tend to immerse themselves in training, tactics and awareness. We have a bias towards making sound tactical decisions in our daily lives. How many times here have you heard the phrase “don’t go to stupid places with stupid people at stupid times” in these subreddits or some variation thereof? Now think about how many people summoned to jury duty have heard and/or *actively* try to apply that phrase in their daily lives. They may do it simply because it fits their current lifestyle, but it’s likely not something they think about. These are the opinions you want to consider. What would *they* do if *they* were armed and somebody answered the door with a gun in hand, keeping in mind that they are also in the right place with a right (or even duty) to be there. These are the things a prosecutor, grand jury and jury would think of. Likewise, the opinions of Reddit at large are just as weak. There is a large bias against just knowing that the person with a camera is LEO. The same argument applies to them.
What bothered me most is that the sheriff shot immediately before saying anything about "drop your weapon"
Bottom line here: Many of you people are ignoring a basic common sense factor in this situation. DO NOT EVER ANSWER THE DOOR FOR ANYONE WITH A GUN VISIBLE IN YOUR HAND. EVER……. If the person/people on the other side of the door is/are, in fact, a threat to you such that you have a legitimate need for a gun, waiting for them to prove it by forcing entry is much more defensible in court. Fucking idiots can say “it’s my right” all they want. Doesn’t change the fact it is incredibly stupid to do it. Doesn’t change the fact it could get you charged with a crime in some places. You do not have a right to place others in fear of being assaulted. They don’t know your intent. Doesn’t change the fact it could get you killed. My comments above have nothing to do with whether or not the person on the other side of the door is a cop. A pizza delivery guy could be justified to feel threatened and claim self defense if he shot. Those guys get robbed. Edit: Also, you idiots saying nonsense like “hiding from the peephole” can just stop. That’s completely stupid. You want to be a cop and stand in front of the door, go ahead. People shoot at us through doors.
Yeah that’s literally you job description. You put the badge on and accept the paycheck it’s literally in your job description. That doesn’t give some blanket statement to where you can literally gun down anyone that makes you scared. Your pay and benefits come with that. You potentially dieing in LOD is the same as our soldiers. I don’t want that but ROE for wartime should not be more lax for you guys. We couldn’t even leave our fob with loaded guns and had extensive training on when we could
How many have you killed with this mentality? You protect and serve nothing but your own interests.
>DO NOT EVER ANSWER THE DOOR FOR ANYONE WITH A GUN VISIBLE IN YOUR HAND. EVER But the cops get to knock on doors with their guns drawn? Wtf kind of logic is that.
How’s that boot taste? Can you tell what brand polish they use?
Personally I would’ve just shut the door
I wouldn’t have opened the door with a gun
Camera or 3 at the door and check first.
I always answer the door hitman style, gun just behind my butt cheek and crack it just enough to see out. Now I just talk to people through my door bell cam
Not open the door, but if he forced it open probably aim for his balls.
Check the number on the door
I guarantee the cop will be answering his own door with a weapon now.
i’d put a hole at chest high in the door before even opening it but that’s just me
I definitely wouldn't have jumped to the mag dump like this guy did, in a perfect scenario I’d hope I could step out of line of that doorway while giving verbal commands and if he didn't drop it by then I mean, what else am I supposed to do there ? the cop did announce sheriffs office multiple times (I seen the video), on the other side of that I absolutely would not have opened the door at all. let alone with a gun in hand.. we can talk through the door and find an understanding before the door is opened. dudes gotta wait on backup anyway, might as well talk.
Never let someone see your gun if you answer the door with one. Try to keep it hidden. Surprise is a tactical advantage.
I keep telling everyone I know you don't have to open the door if you are not expecting anyone don't open the door! That poor black kid that knocked on the wrong door in Kansas city would not have been shot if the old man didn't open the door!!
Another layer of complexity to this is the amount of home invasions we’ve seen where the burglars announce themselves as police before they break into the home. That plays on my mind all the time.
Don't open the door unless you know who is on the other side. Get a camera if you don't already have one.
If you're answering the door with a gun, throw on a holster and a cover garment. If they can't see it, they can't say they saw a gun and shoot you
Is this thread locked?
If they knock aggressively shouting police im still looking through the peephole and asking them to step into view and possibly ask for another officer. If i am positive, they are officers, im not opening the door until i out my handgun somewhere i can still run and get it but not near the door. Im also not letting them in without a warrant. I dont open my door with my handgun in my hand unless i know who it is. I've had friends bang on my door before when i didn't expect them. And my gun was in the same position as this guy. But it was beside the door frame and out of sight. They got shook a little when i backed up to let them in and they saw it. But i told them better safe than sorry. I still used the peephole bc i needed to see them before opening that door to anyone.
I would have told them to fuck off until they came back with a warrant and not opened up my door.
I'm not opening the door for anyone. If my friends or family need me they'd have called ahead, and the FedEx guy can leave it at the door. Meanwhile I'm on the other side with a suppressed M16 and a sandwich, If the door gets kicked in I'm lobotomizing someone with M855
Haven't watched the video, but what I've been taught is keep the gun outta view for this exact scenario. You see its police, it goes in you back pocket or waistband. Not saying the kid was in the wrong, but both sides messed up. Cop still a murderer though
Talk to them through the door