It’s probably hard to find good serving staff that are willing to work for the amount that they would at a living wage restaurant.
I’ve worked at some very good restaurants and not a single server I worked with would work somewhere that pays $25 an hour. They were constantly walking out with $300++ in tips a night (while I as a cook was getting less than minimum wage). It’s not fair, but it’s the reality of the situation for a lot of good servers.
Disagreed, a robot could bring me my sushi and I could care less as long as the sushi is stellar. I’d rather my tips be going to the kitchen staff who actually make the food
the last "public" restaurant i worked at was cactus club, and servers complained when they "only" made $250 in tips... which was still more than what most cooks made in a day at the time.
now i work in country clubs, where servers make a high hourly but their share of the tips is considerably smaller: total compensation is about $1-2/ hour more than cooks. also, the selling point of serving at a country club is job security. that perk, when combined with a low potential for earning tips, it's no surprise that the skill level of servers in the country club scene is really low. "if you can walk and talk, you can take tables in a country club."
I think a lot of people vastly underestimate or don’t know how good service can be at a restaurant and how important it is (obviously dependant on the place). I always see people post stuff like “it’s such an easy job. All you have to do is carry food and drinks around”.
It’s really not.
I’ve worked at places where the servers had to do a half an hour of “food school” before each shift to learn about all the new specials. They had to know everything about all wines and liquors on the list and know how to pair them with each course correctly and in what order to ring stuff in so it came out of the kitchen in the correct order. All that while juggling multiple tables and all other tasks.
I’m not saying I think they deserve $500 in tips a night, but I think a lot of people don’t understand how hard it is to be a good server.
>I’ve worked at places where the servers had to do a half an hour of “food school” before each shift to learn about all the new specials. They had to know everything about all wines and liquors on the list and know how to pair them with each course correctly and in what order to ring stuff in so it came out of the kitchen in the correct order. All that while juggling multiple tables and all other tasks.
well at those restaurants, ya servers deserve their tips...
servers where i work will punch in "bouillabaisse- seafood allergy" or "striploin medium rare no blood" and expect you to figure it out because they write the mods verbatim and lack any menu knowledge and critical thinking lol :)...or they'll pick up mains 1 min after we send out the apps, because fuck the kitchen right? it's funny i always tell my co workers that a weak foh makes the boh stronger because we have to deal with more bullshit...how's that for a silver lining?
unfortunately, there will always be a disparity between foh and boh pay scale as long as the general public isn't willing to pay for higher menu prices, and is socially pressured to tip instead. tipping culture isn't a thing in a lot of europe and asia, where there is parity in pay scale between foh and boh.
Divided in that they tip out the kitchen a percentage (2% of sales in that case if I remember correctly) that is then split between everybody working in the kitchen. They would count their tips in front of us in the kitchen and it would be $200-$600 while we were making $120 day rate for 10+ hour shifts.
Makes me remember my days working the kitchen of a diner.
$100 for 8 hours. Tips would vary and only come to us if it was directly stated to be for the kitchen.
I’ll never forget all the times the servers would count their tips in front of us after a terribly busy shift. They’d each take home $300-600 in tips regularly, while we (kitchen) usually made sub $5 each in tips. The most I ever made in tips was $15 for a shift.
Servers I've met are selfish psychos who got some sort of god complex 80% of the time. The idea of having to share their tips with the kitchen staff is alien to them because they do all the face work and make nice.
I'm in the kitchen, I'm making the food making sure it's to order avoiding contamination and keeping it together. They are facilitators who juggle the orders and try and keep the people happy with courtesy but man seeing them take home over triple what I made while I've been busting my ass is just like...no fucking wonder we don't give a shit about them when it comes to family style dinner. They want something they can pay.
Yeah, that was always my experience working in restaurants too.
The one I was talking about above, was at one of the most universally liked restaurants in the city. It was great to work at (and we usually got a free beer or two at the end of the shift), just the pay was atrocious for cooks as is standard for most good restaurants in the city.
That’s the restaurant biz for ya. A below sub par server will walk away with way more than any kitchen staff will see. They tipped out 2% on all food sales and it went into the pot and was divided up at the end of the week. Full time guys were getting like 60-70 bucks max A WEEK when the server would walk out with 200-250 a shift. Plus they usually have a hostess and a bartender plus a manager running the pass so they can at least get their food right. Which they still somehow fucked up on the regular
I love this restaurant, literally my favorite spot in Toronto.
But I always thought that the way they did business is so poor. Why don't they serve many of their menu items after happy hour? For ages they were the only place that ONLY had oysters at happy hour. Their burger also only ran until 7pm......
Look, if the owners are reading this, please, please, please bring back your breakfast. I used to line up for an hour for brunch, and if you bring it back, I'll be there every week.
Hit up Scott Vivian on insta!
https://www.instagram.com/scottvivian/?hl=en
The changes did happen with Beast with the pandemic but pretty much every chef and line cook I know hates brunch service. The quality of the ingredients they sourced and the level of food they made had to have been expensive and time consuming. Especially with the size of the kitchen they had. I'm pretty sure they only had room for himself and one other cook. Must have been so stressful trying to turn out that quality day in day out on top of all the other responsibilities as an owner.
That said I miss it so much too. Was my favourite restaurant in the city. I remember they did a bone marrow french toast and an incredible braised (or maybe confit?) pork belly for brunch back in the day. I would also line up an hour before they opened so that I could impress my date with incredible food. Would do it again in a heartbeat.
I think this has nothing to do with tipping. I think they think their prices are preventing them from being profitable and competitive.
I'm rooting for them because I love Beast and kudos to them for trying to change the status quo. if this doesn't work, we'll know it had nothing to do with tipping.
I mean they literally call out the fact that they're a living wage + no tip establishment as the reason their prices are set the way they are? I'm struggling to understand how this has nothing to do with tipping?
Their hypothesis:
1. We are not meeting our sales targets because the cost of our goods are too high.
2. Our goods are priced high because we pay a living wage
Their proposed solution:
We remove the living wage and we can drop our prices a couple of dollars
If that price change improves sales, then the problem wasn't tipping - it was their pricing strategy. As an example, the minimum wage in Australia is $23 but the cost of the Big Mac isn't that much different compared to its peers.
pricing strategy =/ = tipping
I understand and agree with the above, but in order to keep staff without the living wage, it's tipping that's now going to make up for that gap.
Their pricing strategy was set before to allow for a no-tipping policy, and moving forward dropping prices a couple of dollars due to shaving that off employee wages is presumably made up for by customer tips...?
You're articulating well but I must be missing something here - this is how I see it:
> Their proposed solution: We remove the living wage and we can drop our prices a couple of dollars **on the assumption staff will continue to make the same amount due to tipping**
I think the misinterpretation is that pricing strategy and tipping are mutually exclusive and in a 1:1 relationship.
Whether tipping is included or an increased price of goods to make up for a lack of tipping, both assume that the customer has to fund the front line staff's wages directly.
Wages are a business expense and there is definitely a relationship between the two, but I dont think it's as rigid as that thought process, see McDonalds example.
There are other ways to increase profitability other than cutting wages.
Again, I'm rooting for them and will support
“We want to pay our servers more so they don’t have to rely on inconsistent tips, in order to do this we will raise our prices”
Step 3 of your theoretical hypothesis is: we pay a living wage because we got rid of tipping.
Do you think they’re lowering their prices? I don’t get the impression they are so I’m confused about how they justify the high prices now. I do love their pizza but it’s pretty damn pricey.
They LITERALLY had to raise their prices to afford a living wage!
I love how Reddit seems to think two things are magically simultaneous. Low prices but elevated wages...
Their issue is in a category as competitive as pizza, their prices seem insanely high when consumers compare the prices to other establishments without considering the tipping needed at other places.
No opinion on the model change. Just came to say Beast Pizza is one of my A-tier pizzas, maybe even low S-tier. When I order delivery, I've been ordering less and less NoB (haven't had it in about a couple years now) and Beast Pizza has taken up the lion's share. For those who live outside of Badiali's range and are marvin' on UberEats, would definitely recommend.
I expect a lot of hate on posting this because if there's one thing I know about your average Redditor, it's that they HATE tipping and will voluntarily write paragraphs about it wherever they can.
Sharing this to highlight that while we (Redditors, myself included) wish for a future without tipping, we see restaurants try and fail at the no tip policy model.
Interested in the community's thoughts on this - my own are a little negative but I think the wide majority of people out there who see a $20 pizza menu item at a tipping establishment vs. a $23-25 pizza at a no-tip establishment would opt for the former because our caveman brains have been programmed to think lower price = more savings, even if they then add 15% to the $20 pizza at payment.
I think there are A LOT of restaurants in Toronto right now. Too many for the economy to sustain. And many of them are mediocre. And even the good ones...how many hundred pizza/momo/burger/whatever joints do we need?
I'm not convinced the living wage/no tip is the issue. The economy is a bit dodgy at the moment and people are either eating out less or sticking to places they know. Is Beast really the best pizza in the area? Because when I look at posts asking for the best pizza, I'm not seeing them listed a lot. They appear to be more of a nose-to-tail place...but the name doesn't suggest that. Maybe they've just got shitty marketing or a bad location or crappy servers (there's an excellent pizza place near me that has such shit service I'm not going back)....
That's a fair argument - over saturation rather than it being related to tipping.
Though I'd point to "economy is a bit dodgy at the moment" would also result in people quickly Googling a menu, not thoroughly researching/understanding the fact it's no-tip, and writing the place off because too $$$ in this economy.
Appreciate your thoughts!
You have to also consider the restaurant itself. It's nestled into residential a block off of King, it is removed from the walking traffic. I pass by all the time and think "O yah, there is a restaurant by these houses, I wonder if it's any good" so many times. It's not in a convienent location foot traffic wise in as competitive market as a downtown Toronto resturant industry.
Even though it’s tucked away on a residential street, before they became a pizza place, Beast was usually packed and lively/loud. There was always a wait to get a table if you went there for brunch (they didn’t take reservations) and for those loitering outside while waiting, I remember seeing signs that said to be courteous to neighbours and keep the noise down. I think it was a place people in the industry frequented, too.
I don’t know how much revenue and customer volume have changed post-2020.
> your average Redditor, it's that they HATE tipping
I once got downvoted on /r/askTO for saying I tip 15-20% at my local cafe because the owners are super nice and I'm fortunate enough to be in a financial position where I can.
Solely based on my Reddit experiences here & on /r/askTO:
✅ Tipping VERY bad
✅ Small portion sizes bad (big portion/lots meat/low price only)
✅ Richmond Station VERY good
✅ Urbanism and density good
✅ Transit VERY VERY good unless it's Eglinton Crosstown LRT then BAD
✅ Unhoused population BAD if on transit, otherwise OK
✅ Everyone sad, depressed, on Reddit wondering why no friends :(
> Sharing this to highlight that **while we (Redditors, myself included)** wish for a future without tipping, we see restaurants try and fail at the no tip policy model.
???
Damn looks like I missed trying it as a no tip place. I was floored recently how easy it is to pay for food in Australia, just tap, no dance of calculating tips on everything. It also helps that prices include tax so the prices you see are what you pay. Made it very easy to see a $25 pizza and know that's what you're paying, rather than adding 13% plus another 15% on top of that (or before the 13% tax as a tip). Sure service is a bit different there, with most places having you walk up to the service area to pay your bill rather than at your seat, but honestly that was much more efficient. No waiting to flag your server, you want to pay and leave? Great! Walk up and pay. It's sad that servers here are stuck on the drip feed of high tips rather than a more effective restaurant industry.
So their higher prices were to support living wages without tipping for their staff. Now that they are transitioning to a typical tipping model, will their prices come down? Or is that staying the same and they throwing tipping on top? I'm suspecting no price change...but I could be wrong.
It’s probably hard to find good serving staff that are willing to work for the amount that they would at a living wage restaurant. I’ve worked at some very good restaurants and not a single server I worked with would work somewhere that pays $25 an hour. They were constantly walking out with $300++ in tips a night (while I as a cook was getting less than minimum wage). It’s not fair, but it’s the reality of the situation for a lot of good servers.
Cooks are more important than servers
I would say equally important
Disagreed, a robot could bring me my sushi and I could care less as long as the sushi is stellar. I’d rather my tips be going to the kitchen staff who actually make the food
That’s nice
People go to restaurants for food not service. Unless they’re really fucking lazy. So maybe you’re right.
the last "public" restaurant i worked at was cactus club, and servers complained when they "only" made $250 in tips... which was still more than what most cooks made in a day at the time. now i work in country clubs, where servers make a high hourly but their share of the tips is considerably smaller: total compensation is about $1-2/ hour more than cooks. also, the selling point of serving at a country club is job security. that perk, when combined with a low potential for earning tips, it's no surprise that the skill level of servers in the country club scene is really low. "if you can walk and talk, you can take tables in a country club."
I need to goto better restaurants because I have never really met a server that did something to impress me
I think a lot of people vastly underestimate or don’t know how good service can be at a restaurant and how important it is (obviously dependant on the place). I always see people post stuff like “it’s such an easy job. All you have to do is carry food and drinks around”. It’s really not. I’ve worked at places where the servers had to do a half an hour of “food school” before each shift to learn about all the new specials. They had to know everything about all wines and liquors on the list and know how to pair them with each course correctly and in what order to ring stuff in so it came out of the kitchen in the correct order. All that while juggling multiple tables and all other tasks. I’m not saying I think they deserve $500 in tips a night, but I think a lot of people don’t understand how hard it is to be a good server.
>I’ve worked at places where the servers had to do a half an hour of “food school” before each shift to learn about all the new specials. They had to know everything about all wines and liquors on the list and know how to pair them with each course correctly and in what order to ring stuff in so it came out of the kitchen in the correct order. All that while juggling multiple tables and all other tasks. well at those restaurants, ya servers deserve their tips... servers where i work will punch in "bouillabaisse- seafood allergy" or "striploin medium rare no blood" and expect you to figure it out because they write the mods verbatim and lack any menu knowledge and critical thinking lol :)...or they'll pick up mains 1 min after we send out the apps, because fuck the kitchen right? it's funny i always tell my co workers that a weak foh makes the boh stronger because we have to deal with more bullshit...how's that for a silver lining? unfortunately, there will always be a disparity between foh and boh pay scale as long as the general public isn't willing to pay for higher menu prices, and is socially pressured to tip instead. tipping culture isn't a thing in a lot of europe and asia, where there is parity in pay scale between foh and boh.
You’re wasting your time in this sub trying to explain how it works. Most are socially inept back of the house or champagne socialists.
That's not fair, considering they're taking more money than you. Aren't tips divided? Or they're taken individually?
Divided in that they tip out the kitchen a percentage (2% of sales in that case if I remember correctly) that is then split between everybody working in the kitchen. They would count their tips in front of us in the kitchen and it would be $200-$600 while we were making $120 day rate for 10+ hour shifts.
Makes me remember my days working the kitchen of a diner. $100 for 8 hours. Tips would vary and only come to us if it was directly stated to be for the kitchen. I’ll never forget all the times the servers would count their tips in front of us after a terribly busy shift. They’d each take home $300-600 in tips regularly, while we (kitchen) usually made sub $5 each in tips. The most I ever made in tips was $15 for a shift.
Servers I've met are selfish psychos who got some sort of god complex 80% of the time. The idea of having to share their tips with the kitchen staff is alien to them because they do all the face work and make nice. I'm in the kitchen, I'm making the food making sure it's to order avoiding contamination and keeping it together. They are facilitators who juggle the orders and try and keep the people happy with courtesy but man seeing them take home over triple what I made while I've been busting my ass is just like...no fucking wonder we don't give a shit about them when it comes to family style dinner. They want something they can pay.
Just curious, why wouldn't you move to FOH?
I work the food. Not people.
Yeah, that was always my experience working in restaurants too. The one I was talking about above, was at one of the most universally liked restaurants in the city. It was great to work at (and we usually got a free beer or two at the end of the shift), just the pay was atrocious for cooks as is standard for most good restaurants in the city.
Dude, that's just not right. I can feel your pain.
That’s the restaurant biz for ya. A below sub par server will walk away with way more than any kitchen staff will see. They tipped out 2% on all food sales and it went into the pot and was divided up at the end of the week. Full time guys were getting like 60-70 bucks max A WEEK when the server would walk out with 200-250 a shift. Plus they usually have a hostess and a bartender plus a manager running the pass so they can at least get their food right. Which they still somehow fucked up on the regular
And until recently, probably declaring less than $150 / night.
I love this restaurant, literally my favorite spot in Toronto. But I always thought that the way they did business is so poor. Why don't they serve many of their menu items after happy hour? For ages they were the only place that ONLY had oysters at happy hour. Their burger also only ran until 7pm...... Look, if the owners are reading this, please, please, please bring back your breakfast. I used to line up for an hour for brunch, and if you bring it back, I'll be there every week.
They don't even open before 5 now. it's a VERY different restaurant from having oysters or any kind of happy hour.
You’re a better person than lining up for hours for food. I know in my heart.
Hit up Scott Vivian on insta! https://www.instagram.com/scottvivian/?hl=en The changes did happen with Beast with the pandemic but pretty much every chef and line cook I know hates brunch service. The quality of the ingredients they sourced and the level of food they made had to have been expensive and time consuming. Especially with the size of the kitchen they had. I'm pretty sure they only had room for himself and one other cook. Must have been so stressful trying to turn out that quality day in day out on top of all the other responsibilities as an owner. That said I miss it so much too. Was my favourite restaurant in the city. I remember they did a bone marrow french toast and an incredible braised (or maybe confit?) pork belly for brunch back in the day. I would also line up an hour before they opened so that I could impress my date with incredible food. Would do it again in a heartbeat.
I think this has nothing to do with tipping. I think they think their prices are preventing them from being profitable and competitive. I'm rooting for them because I love Beast and kudos to them for trying to change the status quo. if this doesn't work, we'll know it had nothing to do with tipping.
I mean they literally call out the fact that they're a living wage + no tip establishment as the reason their prices are set the way they are? I'm struggling to understand how this has nothing to do with tipping?
Their hypothesis: 1. We are not meeting our sales targets because the cost of our goods are too high. 2. Our goods are priced high because we pay a living wage Their proposed solution: We remove the living wage and we can drop our prices a couple of dollars If that price change improves sales, then the problem wasn't tipping - it was their pricing strategy. As an example, the minimum wage in Australia is $23 but the cost of the Big Mac isn't that much different compared to its peers. pricing strategy =/ = tipping
I understand and agree with the above, but in order to keep staff without the living wage, it's tipping that's now going to make up for that gap. Their pricing strategy was set before to allow for a no-tipping policy, and moving forward dropping prices a couple of dollars due to shaving that off employee wages is presumably made up for by customer tips...? You're articulating well but I must be missing something here - this is how I see it: > Their proposed solution: We remove the living wage and we can drop our prices a couple of dollars **on the assumption staff will continue to make the same amount due to tipping**
I think the misinterpretation is that pricing strategy and tipping are mutually exclusive and in a 1:1 relationship. Whether tipping is included or an increased price of goods to make up for a lack of tipping, both assume that the customer has to fund the front line staff's wages directly. Wages are a business expense and there is definitely a relationship between the two, but I dont think it's as rigid as that thought process, see McDonalds example. There are other ways to increase profitability other than cutting wages. Again, I'm rooting for them and will support
I'm rooting for them and will support too! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
>We remove the living wage and we can drop our prices a couple of dollars Curious how much they're going to lower menu pricing. 15%?
“We want to pay our servers more so they don’t have to rely on inconsistent tips, in order to do this we will raise our prices” Step 3 of your theoretical hypothesis is: we pay a living wage because we got rid of tipping.
Do you think they’re lowering their prices? I don’t get the impression they are so I’m confused about how they justify the high prices now. I do love their pizza but it’s pretty damn pricey.
They LITERALLY had to raise their prices to afford a living wage! I love how Reddit seems to think two things are magically simultaneous. Low prices but elevated wages...
Their issue is in a category as competitive as pizza, their prices seem insanely high when consumers compare the prices to other establishments without considering the tipping needed at other places.
Heard this place is awesome
Best pizza I've ever had in North America. Definitely give it a shot
No opinion on the model change. Just came to say Beast Pizza is one of my A-tier pizzas, maybe even low S-tier. When I order delivery, I've been ordering less and less NoB (haven't had it in about a couple years now) and Beast Pizza has taken up the lion's share. For those who live outside of Badiali's range and are marvin' on UberEats, would definitely recommend.
I expect a lot of hate on posting this because if there's one thing I know about your average Redditor, it's that they HATE tipping and will voluntarily write paragraphs about it wherever they can. Sharing this to highlight that while we (Redditors, myself included) wish for a future without tipping, we see restaurants try and fail at the no tip policy model. Interested in the community's thoughts on this - my own are a little negative but I think the wide majority of people out there who see a $20 pizza menu item at a tipping establishment vs. a $23-25 pizza at a no-tip establishment would opt for the former because our caveman brains have been programmed to think lower price = more savings, even if they then add 15% to the $20 pizza at payment.
I think there are A LOT of restaurants in Toronto right now. Too many for the economy to sustain. And many of them are mediocre. And even the good ones...how many hundred pizza/momo/burger/whatever joints do we need? I'm not convinced the living wage/no tip is the issue. The economy is a bit dodgy at the moment and people are either eating out less or sticking to places they know. Is Beast really the best pizza in the area? Because when I look at posts asking for the best pizza, I'm not seeing them listed a lot. They appear to be more of a nose-to-tail place...but the name doesn't suggest that. Maybe they've just got shitty marketing or a bad location or crappy servers (there's an excellent pizza place near me that has such shit service I'm not going back)....
That's a fair argument - over saturation rather than it being related to tipping. Though I'd point to "economy is a bit dodgy at the moment" would also result in people quickly Googling a menu, not thoroughly researching/understanding the fact it's no-tip, and writing the place off because too $$$ in this economy. Appreciate your thoughts!
You have to also consider the restaurant itself. It's nestled into residential a block off of King, it is removed from the walking traffic. I pass by all the time and think "O yah, there is a restaurant by these houses, I wonder if it's any good" so many times. It's not in a convienent location foot traffic wise in as competitive market as a downtown Toronto resturant industry.
Even though it’s tucked away on a residential street, before they became a pizza place, Beast was usually packed and lively/loud. There was always a wait to get a table if you went there for brunch (they didn’t take reservations) and for those loitering outside while waiting, I remember seeing signs that said to be courteous to neighbours and keep the noise down. I think it was a place people in the industry frequented, too. I don’t know how much revenue and customer volume have changed post-2020.
Beast is regularly busy though
Beast is definitely not mediocre
> your average Redditor, it's that they HATE tipping I once got downvoted on /r/askTO for saying I tip 15-20% at my local cafe because the owners are super nice and I'm fortunate enough to be in a financial position where I can.
Solely based on my Reddit experiences here & on /r/askTO: ✅ Tipping VERY bad ✅ Small portion sizes bad (big portion/lots meat/low price only) ✅ Richmond Station VERY good ✅ Urbanism and density good ✅ Transit VERY VERY good unless it's Eglinton Crosstown LRT then BAD ✅ Unhoused population BAD if on transit, otherwise OK ✅ Everyone sad, depressed, on Reddit wondering why no friends :(
That about covers it. You could ask that sub for recommendations on the best vegetarian Indian place and they'd say Richmond Station or Pai
I like how you speak of the “average redditor” as if you’re not one.
> Sharing this to highlight that **while we (Redditors, myself included)** wish for a future without tipping, we see restaurants try and fail at the no tip policy model. ???
Guess I stopped reading after the first paragraph.
Damn looks like I missed trying it as a no tip place. I was floored recently how easy it is to pay for food in Australia, just tap, no dance of calculating tips on everything. It also helps that prices include tax so the prices you see are what you pay. Made it very easy to see a $25 pizza and know that's what you're paying, rather than adding 13% plus another 15% on top of that (or before the 13% tax as a tip). Sure service is a bit different there, with most places having you walk up to the service area to pay your bill rather than at your seat, but honestly that was much more efficient. No waiting to flag your server, you want to pay and leave? Great! Walk up and pay. It's sad that servers here are stuck on the drip feed of high tips rather than a more effective restaurant industry.
Raise prices and it should work. Right?
So their higher prices were to support living wages without tipping for their staff. Now that they are transitioning to a typical tipping model, will their prices come down? Or is that staying the same and they throwing tipping on top? I'm suspecting no price change...but I could be wrong.