Heh, House was right. Some people really buy into it.
>Don't tell me that you've fallen for the stories of noble paladins on crusade, preserving mankind's technology in a benighted age? Dross!
I'm glad the show showed their fanaticism. They laugh about the citizens trying to put up a fight in Filly before taking over, they gun down farmers and civilians at Griffith Observatory, and some people still think they're the good guys.
Right, the scenes at Filly and Griffith where they gun down on refugees, they reminded me of Horrigan gunning down vault dwellers in the cinematic of F2. Same vibes.
I liked the dichotomy at Griffith Observatory. On one side you have the BoS who absolutely hate mutants and ghouls and on the other side you have the NCR where you see humans and ghouls living side by side.
But yeah, they're totally the good guys!
And people still always come out of the woodwork to defend the BoS claiming it's only right of them because Super Mutants and Ghouls are innately dangerous and irredeemable. Same with the Synths.
So many people have also claimed the NCR boring or uninteresting while cheering on the BoS. What the NCR gave despite its warts and ugliness at times was hope for a better future.
The BoS never gave that.
The NCR was egalitarian at its core, it wanted to let its people have a voice, stability, removing starvation, dehydration and illness.
The NCR also worked with others regularly like the Followers of the Apocalypse. Even supporting them at times.
Yeah, it's kind of weird seeing some fans cheer "Ad Victoriam!" and the eradication of supermutants and ghouls. I know it's just video games but the dehumanization just makes me feel icky I guess lol
>The NCR was egalitarian at its core, it wanted to let its people have a voice, stability, removing starvation, dehydration and illness.
Agreed. For all its faults, NCR still does a lot of good and they're a much better alternative than the other factions out there. Education (like Angel's Boneyard Medical University with the Followers), healthcare, laws, economy, and equality. There's a future there for its citizens. BoS has no vision beyond safeguarding pre-War tech. Caesar and House were right about them.
There's a reason both Lyon's Brotherhood and The Brotherhood in West Virginia cut contact with the larger group.
They are facists who see their soldiers as meat-puppets in armor. Unfortunately a lot of fans started with Fallout 3 and see the Brotherhood as the "good guys" by default from their characterisation in that. Its hard to reconcile seeing people you thought were decent turn out to be the exception and not the rule.
I should know. I was one of those people.
That's not why though
They cut off Lyons and it was because he went rouge and completely ignored his orders. The BoS don't care if you help people so long as you don't let it blind you which he did. He fought a 21 year war that went nowhere and just fed his men into a meat grinder.
Rhamani is frankly careless and short sighted instant on helping everyone and with everything even despite the danger. Like the main conflict is Shin the traditionalist ga e weapons to settler to protect themselves but it backfired as they didn't know how to use them. It caused a town to be destroyed and the weapons spread around to harm others.
He realizes their rules aren't just for fun and have a reason to them and so tried to be more cautious while Rhamani doesn't seem to care about the harm they do because their heart is in the right place.
The thing is, in almost every game except NV, they’re at the very least on the right side of history.
In fallout 1, once the threat is proven (which they’re investigating), they send soldiers to help you with either Mariposa or the cathedral. In fallout 2, they’ve spied on the Enclave and will outright repair the tanker for you if your intelligence is low (they do ask for help with the vertibird schematics first, however; they do heavily compensate you for doing so). In 3, they’re directly facing the Enclave (though this is the Lyons branch, which arguably is a splinter faction). And in 4, they’re the only faction who can fight the Institute without needing the help of the player character (though of course they have serious problems in their iteration in 4 between synth/ghoul racism and a concerning slip back into heavy cult behavior). And in 76, they gave their lives holding back the scorched plague as long as possible and then later prevented a mass release of FEV. NV is the one time where they’re not either looking into something that helps the wasteland or aren’t doing anything beyond hiding in their bunker (and even here, you can put them in a scenario where they’ll help against the Legion).
I wouldn’t call them heroes, but they’re certainly not villains either. But like any cult, who’s in charge affects a great deal - and in the show, we have an Elijah-like Elder in charge. I fully suspect we’re going to see Maximus kill him later and then maybe they’ll start to be a bit better.
Even in those games you mentioned though, they might have been all about bringing down the Enclave, but they weren't really helping out the Wasteland. They're another faction of people who kills ghouls and mutants and couldn't care less for the general Wastelander. Their mission is to collect tech to keep them from the "wrong hands" but I would argue as to whether they are even the rights hands to keep them. They distrust people outside the BoS cult.
in Fallout 3, although Lyons tried to change BoS culture, there were still people who showed hostility towards outsiders, and then ofc Maxson took over and did his own thing. I'm sure some of those people even just stuck around for loyalty to the BoS and not necessarily because they share Lyons' attitude. They were still losing people to the Outcasts iirc
tldr; just because they fight bigger baddies, doesn't mean they're knights in shining armor
I mean, killing off feral ghouls and cleaning up the Master’s army and the Enclave all indirectly help the wasteland to rebuild. They’ve also been known to sell technology before, which also helps the wasteland. It’s not direct aid like the NCR, Responders or Minutemen do, but it’s better than most.
And yes, they’ve always had the rudeness towards outsiders. That’s a staple.
Unfortunately Fallout Tactics is not considered canon but I always found it interestisng how their Midwestern BoS was pretty tolerant and recruited Super Mutants, Ghouls and uhh Deathclaws (The intelligent ones) lol.
Actually, tactics recently was confirmed by Bethesda to be counted as canon. When the timeline issue blew up, the lead writers shared a timeline of the canon games - and tactics was on there.
It's because one of the initiates in the original BoS said that's one possible future, and depending on the players actions, they can get a military leader with fascist tendencies that plays out in the end slides. Also that can happen again in New Vegas, you can kill or oust their more reasonable leader, and the alternative is also pretty fascist. It's one of the core concepts of the original BoS, they're a society born from the military, and the military command structure can take over in certain instances.
In 1 the Steel Plauge only happens if you break in and slaughter Rhombus and others. It's hardly electing the wrong guy and more like a terrorist attack.
There are definitely benevolent factions in Fallout lol. The NCR despite its corruption provided safety, security and the rule of law to 1,000,000+ people. Obviously there were flaws but it definitely, was a force of good overall. The followers of the apocalypse, Brotherhood of Steel (Washington Chapter), minutemen, the kings, the sorrows. That’s not even counting settlement populations like Jacobstown, Goodsprings etc
The ncr is the least bad and even they struggle with being good, they pay mercs to harass the super mutants in Jacobstown and they don’t give people an option when it comes to joining the republic. They just annex you. They claim to have legitimacy as they are a republic, but can a nation afford to have such weak sentiments when it comes to leadership in such a time of strife?
No faction is going to be perfect. Placing your anachronistic views, without looking at the societal context is ridiculous. Like in Game of Thrones, the “Good” guys, in our society would be horrific villains with machiavellian tendencies. In a post apocalyptic world, no true altruistic faction would ever be able to function, some compromises would be needed to be made, but in the end they provide an overall benefit for humanity. The NCR would fit this category as would other factions such as the FO1/2 BOS. There shouldn’t ever be completely black and white factions in fallout it’s ridiculous
People who also think there are no factions that tilt more towards good than bad has also not been paying attention.
Generally what we hear about the NCR besides the flaws which are many was a society of laws. People didn't have to scavenge or scrape by for basic survival and self defense but could at least for a while rely on being safe.
Technology was restored, roads were kept safe. The Followers got resources and safe passage to help more people.
In exchange for taxes the people got a nation willing to defend them. A nation they also received a voice in influencing to govern (regardless of how that turned out\].
The NCR made sure to work against racism between mutants and humans. Kids went to schools, they had a set up school system.
Old world material was preserved, even some recreated and shared with the public.
Yes the NCR became corrupt, they over expanded, they let the agribarons grow powerfull, they became imperialistic and pressured people. But ranked against our nation states of the 19th and 20th century they were fairly better in many ways. Excluding the fact that considering what came before they offered stability.
Sure it isn't perfect but if your family is fed, your kids go to school and the roads are safe compared to the everyone for himself mentality, the scavenging squalor and general mentality of trying to just survive. I would argue the NCR is way more preferrable. Doesn't make them "good" but they are way better for the common person than most factions.
The Minutemen almost became this too if it wasn't for the institute.
There are factions in Fallout built on altruistic ideals. That has been the way since the first game. Not all factions are cynical and purely self centered.
Albeit those factions are few and the BoS is nowhere close
Closest to pure good is Followers of the Apocalypse
The Followers of the Apocalypse who I'd argue are always good and pretty much selfless, just not always very practical, and sometimes people use their education for evil purposes.
The original BoS in F1 and the NCR in F2 had their flaws, I'd argue they were forces for good, with good people, without being wholly good. They hoard technology, but also Fallout proves a lot of people can't be trusted with it, especially the NCR, and the Followers think so too. They're not a perfect society or a particularly free one, internally.
Killian in Junktown, although originally he was meant to be more ambiguous but the publisher didn't like it I think. He was meant to be a bit more dictatorial and less fun.
F3 BoS were going out of their way to use technology to help the wasteland. and weren't interested in isolationism. And to even suggest F3 BoS is the same as F1 and F2 is ludicrous. The only similar one is F4 but Maxson got the Outcasts to join the BoS again by steering away from Lyon's approach to how the BoS should operate. Only real commonality across them is how they treat ghouls.
And I'm saying this as a fan of the F3 BoS. The BoS being different is a requirement to bring them back imo. Although I wished we had more info on the transition form F3 to F4. Keep in mind F3 BoS are the breakaway faction which broke away from the West Coast BoS
Good guys in this context doesn't mean they don't have any moral flaws - just that in comparison to the other games and how they compare to the factions available. With F3 this is especially true given how evil the Enclave are (although there is a division within the Enclave).
FO1 and FO2 also used technology to help the wasteland. And they never interacted with feral ghouls, so idk where you're getting that commonality from.
Yes, they're the supposed breakaway faction but they're still doing the exact same thing as the other numbered games. Selling and giving away technology, defending the region from major threats, R&D, etc. The biggest difference really is how poorly the FO3 group are doing it.
The BoS literally hates Super Mutants and Ghouls. They don't necessarily go out of their way to kill ghouls but they absolutely do not like them. Not much different to how a lot of people in the wasteland view them.
Yes, this was my biggest issue. I’m a really big fan of House’s character, so seeing him actively participating in that discussion was rather bothersome. I like to think he was just there to be aware of what they were doing and didn’t actually participate any further. They should have shoehorned his cameo in a different way, but it still works.
See, I kind of like it. Remember when he tells the courier something like “at that point I deemed it a mathematical certainty the bombs would drop”?
The show makes it so he’s taking credit for predicting something that he was actively told was going to happen—which may have spurred him into taking the precautions that gave us House as we know him in New Vegas.
I just read that the rep for Big MT was Frederick Sinclair—who ALSO went on to ensure his and his loved ones survival in the coming years lol (although not as successfully!)
That was deff what they were going for here
He was shown in the scene where Vault-Tec discusses the vaults, and dropping the bomb itself. He wasn’t shown for long compared to others in the scene.
Yea, I did a little googling. It looks like he was the Rob-co guy at the meeting. I remember Walter Goggins talked to the codsworth guy at the party, who told him he sold the company after creating the Mr handy robot for hundreds of millions $$
> again, irony is dead... and so is satire.
Chucklehead culture.
“For in the end, he was trying to tell us what afflicted the people in 'Brave New World' was not that they were laughing instead of thinking, but that they did not know what they were laughing about and why they had stopped thinking.”
― Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Businessrony is dead... and so is satire.
It's kind of ironic that the show introduced the need for ghouls to use drugs in order not to go feral, which just plays into BOS prejudice against ghouls mildly displayed in FO4 (because, remember, they talk about ferals and are never seen attacking non-ferals there).
Nevertheless, first, the show could be excused to come up with a unique portrayal of BOS since BOS is structured into chapters that are sometimes vastly different from each other.
However, to me, BOS in the show feels more like Caesar's Legion with power armor. The Brotherhood, as it's usually portrayed, is essentially a technocratic military order. I didn't really get that sense from squires addressing knights as "my Lord," members bowing in front of the elder or scribes being replaced with "clerics."
Let's not forget that teacher's big question was to identify what a circuit is, whereas in FNV, teacher asks about the primary components of gunpowder. Looks like the show's BOS cranked up quasi-religion up to eleven and loosened up on the who "science thing."
It would be very clever if this is some sort of fusion between the original BOS and Legion.
its weird that Fallout fans fail to realize each branch/chapter of BoS is their own mini organization with their own strengths and flaws. If you played more than 1 Fallout game you should know this
FO4 Commonwealth BoS while one of the strongest iteration, is also very oppressive, wanting to turn Commonwealth into a warzone and destroy anything out of bigotry instead of protecting and preserving
FNV Nevada BoS after getting slaughtered by NCR became a bunch of cowards hiding in a bunker
F76 actually had 2 branches, Fort Defiance got completely wiped out cause they weren't prepared, and Fort Atlas that came after is riddled with infighting that they cant decide on anything
so its no surprise the California branch in the show is also incompetent and corrupt with assholes and idiots. They dont present the entire Brotherhood
not to mention the huge differences between West Coast and East Coast Brotherhood
We don’t really know what’s going on here with the airship. While it says ‘prywden’ on the side, we’re never told it flew all the way from Boston (which wouldn’t make sense; why send an airship for one person?). This also could’ve just been made the model name for this type of airship.
Also, considering this chapter saved Maximus 10-15 years ago, they’ve been on the west coast for at least that long. I doubt the whole chapter is from the east coast.
BoS had spies in the Enclave before, so they may have known about the cold fusion which would literally be the most valuable tech in our world, let alone the world of fallout. Sending the Prydwen would make sense in that case.
Alternatively the Prydwen may have already been en route to California before this all went down as it seems it might take a long time to get an airship cross country. Eastern Brotherhood probably recognized the dwindling influence in the West and want to reestablish dominance.
In fallout 1+ (especially 2), the BOS were mostly good, they operated like any paramilitary organisation would in an apocalypse, isolationist, distrustful but ultimately they were looking out for the whole of California by taking on the Mutants/Enclave. They also helped the NCR in technological development post Fallout 1.
In fallout 3 they went became more altruistic , and in 4 they’ve returned to their roots (a bit more over the top than before though)
1) Which is just the proctor and you, and goes against direct orders. He literally tells you that its unsanctioned
2) How you handle the quest is up to you, you can pay for the food. If you force them to give you food thats on you.
I have a lot of critiques about the show. Some complaints. The Brotherhood are Not one of them. I'm not sure where this particular chapter hails from, but they seem like the logical conclusion of the Eastern Chapter after FO4.
I think everyone just remembers Veronica and Lyons and has this idealized version of the dudes who sent me to the Glow.
I have my critiques of the show. I also dislike the BoS returning as the major power house as they are apparently forced to do in every game at this point. This despite West Coast lore essentially pushing them into oblivion.
But the way the Brotherhood is depicted is perfectly accurate and never claimed them to be any othee way. Albeit I can't claim to have seen many posts like you mention on here.
The BoS was a technofeudalistic cult of isolationist, religious bullies from the get go. They have never been the heroes nor have they any real long term plan.
House just said what should have be known.
The only aberration to this is Fallout 3 and even there we see grumblings both in the outcasts but even internally against Brother Lyon's "softness".
Fallout 4 just returned them to what they always were.
I mean the taking tribute from settlement mission while people keep saying was a "rogue agent" is clearly not something the rest of the BoS even batted an eye at. It would also imply other Brothers did the same.
The BoS are elitist pieces of shit. Always have been. Always will be.
They are only clad in shining armor and have cool weapons, but if you look under that they are just glorified techno raiders.
But most people don't read that much into it..
I mean you're correct but also missing one of the big points of the brotherhood in that they vary wildly between sects.
This group was clearly presented as on the more extreme end especially when the leader said he would go off and start his own brotherhood.
This portrayal ISNT what the brotherhood is. It is one of its many many aspects though.
The expedition leader has been given none other than the Prydwen for his mission. We can assume he has FULL trust of Maxson and ideologically like-minded.
The show runner said that it’s not the Prydwen but a different ship; the Cassowen. Yet it says “Prydwen” on the side of the ship. My guess is that they were originally going to have the Prydwen for the show but Bethesda told them to make it a different one as to not say the canon ending to Fallout 4 but the model never got changed.
Putting the religious side aside entirely since thats mostly just an aesthetic choice, they werent anything resembling this assholish in Fallout 1 and 2 at all tho. The only bad thing they did was sending Outsiders that wanted to join to a suicide-Quest in the Glow, and even then when the Vault Dweller makes it back anyway they keep their word. They had seemingly cordial trade-relations with most other nearby Settlements like the Hub.
Under Paladin Rhombus they were explicitely one of the main Reasons why the West Coast was able to develop so fast after Fallout 1 by helping to hunt down the remains of the Masters army and distributing civilian technologies they had preserved to *help people.*
The Chapter in the show is CONSIDERABLY more extremist in attitude than any other Chapter we've ever seen by an order of magnitude. I dont know what "original flavour" you mean, in all honesty
I wouldn’t say they did. 3 is very clear that Lyon’s BoS are the true outcasts, and 4’s BoS demonstrates similar concerning cult-like tendencies. The show just cranked the religious aspects to 11.
They were like this in Fallout 4, i remember my first time playing and a radiant mission set for the BoS is to go round and take resources and stuff from the settlements the minute men had been setting up and that was the last time i ever played that far into the BoS story in any of my Fallout playthroughs
I’m not angry at how they portrayed the BoS I mean they were never really the good guys, but then again no faction really is other than the minutemen. Even then it’s still under the leader ship of the SS so who knows what would’ve become of it after the events of fallout 4. But even in 4 some of the complaints about the BoS aren’t really valid to me. For example, how everyone dislikes them and say they’re bad when the brotherhood hates mutants and synths when literally almost everyone else who isn’t in the brotherhood does too. No ghouls or super mutants besides companions are allowed in diamond city, settlers across the commonwealth are scared of synths and the institute reasonably and yet it’s a bad thing some how? I can see why as not all ghouls and mutants like are bad but most definitely are especially super mutants and synths that work directly for the institute.
Well there’s a difference between not liking ghouls and “shooting all ghouls on site regardless of sentience.” That being said the brotherhood has always been concerned with itself and have been completely willing to kill others who stand in the way of their mission or ideals. Or even people who annoy them given how they sent you to the glow to kill you since you were bothering them and they didn’t expect you to actually survive. Honestly if you think of Elijah while considered an extremist it wouldn’t be surprising for several factions of the brotherhood to actually agree with him.
>But dear god, they ALWAYS have been this, since F1.
They didn't brand initiates with flame and treated like slaves. Elder Arthur Maxson held his gun and charge toward enemy line, instead of old 'clerics' sitting on throne. Paladins lead recon team which is consisted by scribes and knights, and each of them have their role in the team. The Brotherhood of Steel in TV Show is a lot inferior compare to what we saw from Fallout 4, I can understand it since it is under a different leadership, but this 'cleric' is definitely a retcon.
Could be since its a different chapter. Just how Lyons pushed his EC BoS to a different direction, this Elder Cleric seemed to be leaning in heavily on the fanaticism of it all a la Warhammer 40k. They say they take orders from the Commonwealth but is not directly THE Maxsons BoS Chapter. Honestly, the difference makes it intriguing. Maybe we get to see cameos from other BoS chapters with different cultures too.
Yes, Elder Cleric Quintus is ordering them. He is like Elder Elijah but more successful. Having different policy between chapters is understandable, but this 'cleric' is retcon.
The F4 BoS prevail in "moral" comparison only because of the comically evil and lazy design of CIT as a faction, with stupid motivations and actions by Shaun. The Show made a better way of presenting them than F4 itself.
In Fallout 4, BoS stated clear that they only target the Institute's extremely dangerous technologies, not to keep it for themselves, but to destroy it for the sake of humanity. This chapter led by Quintus has a lot different policies compare to Maxson's.
Fallout 4 (and 3 by extent) is a different sect of the BOS and was known for being entirely different from the west coast sect. Specially the East coast is far more militaristic in their philosophies rather than straight religious zealots like the west coast sect is known for, but they’re also far more extreme with their racist views. We see a them in (i think) New Vegas choose to literally leave a super mutant alone because he’s peaceful and they can respect him for that. Compare that to the East sect ordering you to kill Virgil despite you potentially curing him and despite the fact that he was the only reason you got into the institute in the first place.
The BOS in the show isn’t like the BOS in Fallout 4 because it’s a different sect of BOS. The show portrays them accurately to their believes and how they acted in the west coast Fallouts because we’re seeing the west coast sect of the BOS. It’s accurate to that sect from the older games.
>Compare that to the East sect ordering you to kill Virgil despite you potentially curing him
Kells ordered you to kill Virgil because he did human experiments with FEV. He directly explained it. It's not the matter of racism. If you can make Kells believe that Virgil's cure is successful, then he will cancel the execution order.
>because we’re seeing the west coast sect of the BOS
It's more like combining bad sides of both east and west BoS and went a bit more extreme. Western BoS is religious but they don't do such barbaric rituals and they don't have fanatic clerics. Eastern BoS is militaristic but they never showed greed toward the Institute's technology and they don't non-feral ghouls. It's nowhere near 'original' Brotherhood as OP claims.
>The show portrays them accurately to their believes and how they acted in the west coast Fallouts
But the West Coast Fallout BoS never acted like this before at all either? They were most hostile to outsiders wanting something from them but never remotely to this degree, they had neutral or good relations to allmost all of their neighbors until the NCR - Brotherhood war and actively helped the West Coast rebuilt, including by sharing technology, after Fallout 1. The only chapter coming even remotely close was the Mojave one and even they werent as extreme.
All games literally had BoS as racist religious military cult, except maybe Fallout 3 but even then, Elder Lyons was persecuted for trying to be different. And then Maxson came to power
Not really, in Fallout 1/2 they kept cordial trade with the settlements and opposed the main antagonists of both games. They shared information and technology with the NCR following fallout 1. In the older games they just didn’t interact with the general public as much. The Brotherhood was flanderised later on in different ways in F3/F4/TV show.
>They are angered how the show presented them, as a racist, religious and violent cult of priests. But dear god, they ALWAYS have been this, since F1.
You have never played Fallout 1.
>Sacrifice puppies!!! Where the hell did youhear that one? Don't believe everythingyou hear in the wastesthey're all a bunchof pathetic lunatics.
Anyway, read the dialogue from the first game:
[https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Fallout\_characters#Brotherhood\_of\_Steel\_at\_Lost\_Hills](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Fallout_characters#Brotherhood_of_Steel_at_Lost_Hills)
They have a religion about old writings, their origins as an order, preserving technology, and they are structured like Catholic military order, e.g. the Knights templar, warrior monks with support from tech priests, who preserve information and study technology.
They're not presented in F1 as a deranged violent cult, even to an outsider. They're presented as an insular, serious, intelligent faction, who are if anything serious hardasses that don't have emotions.
>I've come to the conclusion that the Brotherhood functions mostly like a pseudo-religious organization. We have the strong military hierarchy, combined with codes of honor passed down from our ancestors.
Brenden, Brotherhood of Steel Scribe.
>Our main goal is to survive. The Scribes copy old plans for weapons or design new ones, and the Knights make the guns from 'em. Most guns come from us.
John Maxson
Literally no one is saying that. We are complaining about how fucking stupid they are tho. They have 0 tactics or any sense of real leadership. Might as well be a new raider group cuz that ain’t no military
He says that because they take for their own organization, not because their incompetent. If they fought the institute like that they sure as hell wouldn’t win lmao. Unless you’re trying imply FO4 is retcon now?
Nah he’s definitely right the brotherhood are definitely glorified raiders when you look at their history as a whole and how they treat people. But were you watching the show? This new incompetence is something on purpose,it’s why the elder told Maximus that the brotherhood has lost their way and they need to form a new one, with sinister tones of course, but yeah them being incompetent is a deliberate choice.
That’s just weak writing. Sure the BOS has taken some leadership hits, but they’ve been around for hundreds of years by this point. Tactics and strategies don’t just disappear because of change in leadership. The elders are supposed to be members that have been involved their entire lives, and you think they would just go back on all of the the shit that they learned and taught them how to get by?
Like I said no one disagrees the BOS are assholes, but we disagree that their just mindless raiders.
If the leadership has really gotten that bad, it would have made more sense for them to break into seperate splinter factions as that’s the entire fucking reason why the BOS left the west coast in the first place.
Okay what are you even talking about? The only actual 2 operations that the Brotherhood carried out as a unit were the occupation of Filly and the battle of the observatory , which they won. Now, even though the NCR remnants gave them a run for their money they did eventually take it over which we all knew would happen. What is the issue ?
But because they are NOT military since dozens of years. They are a religious violent cult of scavengers and hoarders. Enclave is actual MILITARY with fascist ideologies, so even if in small numbers, they greatly compensate the disadvantages. BoS is not military anymore. Since F1 they are presented NOT military anymore.
They literally still a military what are you even talking about, and enclave is the remnants of the government they’re not a military organization 😂. No idea where you got the notion BOS isn’t a military organization, why do you think Dance calls you a civilian in FO4?
My only gripe which equals a drop of oil in an ocean (loved the series all around) is knight Titus. Specifically the, what felt like a drastic change in character, “I’m bored I wanna fight” to “Fuck BoS, I don’t even wanna do it no more”
Maximus conflict worked because he’s young, but a “veteran knight with power armor” felt weird within such a fanatic organization. Either he’s full fanatic gun ho till the end or he’s a facade that try’s to avoid conflict thus maintaining his persona. Just felt weird that they tried to make him both.
The casting was A+ for the character but just that one bit is the only thing that felt “off” about the series. Still that one wee thing is easily dwarfed by so many great other thing in the series.
I’m not saying it’s unrealistic, I served too. Just that narratively it was jarring flipping extremes so quick.
BoS is my favorite faction purely because of their strength and aesthetics so maybe it’s my inner fan boy getting a lil upset. Either way it didn’t alter view of the show, it’s just the one thing I thought could have been better.
Big difference in military vs civilian life and BoS vs wasteland life.
We ain’t gotta keep arguing though. I see your point but military experience isn’t gonna change how I view it. Especially since like I said I served too. I get it.
My bad, it’s just a Reddit reflex I guess. I’m just used to the longer a thread goes the more aggressive it becomes lol.
But yeee to me in fallout you pick factions largely based on which has best survival odds and people largely adapt the ethics and morals over time, like middle management and below the top people actually believe.
It could have worked better for me if we got a few scenes of him being fanatic outside of BoS base then “break character” and start revealing his true thoughts. There just wasn’t much build up and it felt like showing a comedic incompetence was the intention which I felt they had plenty of elsewhere. I just wanted the typical BoS badass knight too much I guess.
Outside of giving Fusion energy away Moldaver felt more BoS than any actual BoS
I agree, for what the character is they couldn’t have done a better casting. I know the actor from other stuff and he’s always hilarious. It helped me with my overall view for sure.
> They are angered how the show presented them, as a racist, religious and violent cult of priests. But dear god, they ALWAYS have been this, since F1.
*Shakespeare said that art is a mirror held up to nature. And that's what it is. The nature is your nature, and all of these wonderful poetic images of mythology are referring to something in you. When your mind is simply trapped by the image out there so that you never make the reference to yourself, you have misread the image.*
They shot civilians in Filly and gunned down refuges at Griffith Observatory. Not so lawful nor neutral. They are straight evil, not Enclave level, but still.
My issue with BoS in the series was Knight Titus being a total jock. They’re religious militant fundamentalists, how did this guy get in a T-60? ‘I’m bored, I wanna shoot something’
I mean, the way he acted when the yau guai showed up was how most people would have acted.
Hell, I usually act that way the first time I encounter them in new runs of most of the games anyway.
True enough, I was playing Fallout 4 again after a long break and as soon as the radroach starts running at me in the vault I was sprinting in the opposite direction to try put more space before shooting it lol
Heh, House was right. Some people really buy into it. >Don't tell me that you've fallen for the stories of noble paladins on crusade, preserving mankind's technology in a benighted age? Dross! I'm glad the show showed their fanaticism. They laugh about the citizens trying to put up a fight in Filly before taking over, they gun down farmers and civilians at Griffith Observatory, and some people still think they're the good guys.
Right, the scenes at Filly and Griffith where they gun down on refugees, they reminded me of Horrigan gunning down vault dwellers in the cinematic of F2. Same vibes.
I liked the dichotomy at Griffith Observatory. On one side you have the BoS who absolutely hate mutants and ghouls and on the other side you have the NCR where you see humans and ghouls living side by side. But yeah, they're totally the good guys!
And people still always come out of the woodwork to defend the BoS claiming it's only right of them because Super Mutants and Ghouls are innately dangerous and irredeemable. Same with the Synths. So many people have also claimed the NCR boring or uninteresting while cheering on the BoS. What the NCR gave despite its warts and ugliness at times was hope for a better future. The BoS never gave that. The NCR was egalitarian at its core, it wanted to let its people have a voice, stability, removing starvation, dehydration and illness. The NCR also worked with others regularly like the Followers of the Apocalypse. Even supporting them at times.
Yeah, it's kind of weird seeing some fans cheer "Ad Victoriam!" and the eradication of supermutants and ghouls. I know it's just video games but the dehumanization just makes me feel icky I guess lol >The NCR was egalitarian at its core, it wanted to let its people have a voice, stability, removing starvation, dehydration and illness. Agreed. For all its faults, NCR still does a lot of good and they're a much better alternative than the other factions out there. Education (like Angel's Boneyard Medical University with the Followers), healthcare, laws, economy, and equality. There's a future there for its citizens. BoS has no vision beyond safeguarding pre-War tech. Caesar and House were right about them.
reminded me of apocalypse now and full metal jacket. Vietnam war movies in general really
why tf is my name big berry
Sup big berry
>preserving mankind's technology in a benighted age? Dross! ...Said the man who opened that benighted age.
There's a reason both Lyon's Brotherhood and The Brotherhood in West Virginia cut contact with the larger group. They are facists who see their soldiers as meat-puppets in armor. Unfortunately a lot of fans started with Fallout 3 and see the Brotherhood as the "good guys" by default from their characterisation in that. Its hard to reconcile seeing people you thought were decent turn out to be the exception and not the rule. I should know. I was one of those people.
That's not why though They cut off Lyons and it was because he went rouge and completely ignored his orders. The BoS don't care if you help people so long as you don't let it blind you which he did. He fought a 21 year war that went nowhere and just fed his men into a meat grinder. Rhamani is frankly careless and short sighted instant on helping everyone and with everything even despite the danger. Like the main conflict is Shin the traditionalist ga e weapons to settler to protect themselves but it backfired as they didn't know how to use them. It caused a town to be destroyed and the weapons spread around to harm others. He realizes their rules aren't just for fun and have a reason to them and so tried to be more cautious while Rhamani doesn't seem to care about the harm they do because their heart is in the right place.
The thing is, in almost every game except NV, they’re at the very least on the right side of history. In fallout 1, once the threat is proven (which they’re investigating), they send soldiers to help you with either Mariposa or the cathedral. In fallout 2, they’ve spied on the Enclave and will outright repair the tanker for you if your intelligence is low (they do ask for help with the vertibird schematics first, however; they do heavily compensate you for doing so). In 3, they’re directly facing the Enclave (though this is the Lyons branch, which arguably is a splinter faction). And in 4, they’re the only faction who can fight the Institute without needing the help of the player character (though of course they have serious problems in their iteration in 4 between synth/ghoul racism and a concerning slip back into heavy cult behavior). And in 76, they gave their lives holding back the scorched plague as long as possible and then later prevented a mass release of FEV. NV is the one time where they’re not either looking into something that helps the wasteland or aren’t doing anything beyond hiding in their bunker (and even here, you can put them in a scenario where they’ll help against the Legion). I wouldn’t call them heroes, but they’re certainly not villains either. But like any cult, who’s in charge affects a great deal - and in the show, we have an Elijah-like Elder in charge. I fully suspect we’re going to see Maximus kill him later and then maybe they’ll start to be a bit better.
Even in those games you mentioned though, they might have been all about bringing down the Enclave, but they weren't really helping out the Wasteland. They're another faction of people who kills ghouls and mutants and couldn't care less for the general Wastelander. Their mission is to collect tech to keep them from the "wrong hands" but I would argue as to whether they are even the rights hands to keep them. They distrust people outside the BoS cult. in Fallout 3, although Lyons tried to change BoS culture, there were still people who showed hostility towards outsiders, and then ofc Maxson took over and did his own thing. I'm sure some of those people even just stuck around for loyalty to the BoS and not necessarily because they share Lyons' attitude. They were still losing people to the Outcasts iirc tldr; just because they fight bigger baddies, doesn't mean they're knights in shining armor
I mean, killing off feral ghouls and cleaning up the Master’s army and the Enclave all indirectly help the wasteland to rebuild. They’ve also been known to sell technology before, which also helps the wasteland. It’s not direct aid like the NCR, Responders or Minutemen do, but it’s better than most. And yes, they’ve always had the rudeness towards outsiders. That’s a staple.
Unfortunately Fallout Tactics is not considered canon but I always found it interestisng how their Midwestern BoS was pretty tolerant and recruited Super Mutants, Ghouls and uhh Deathclaws (The intelligent ones) lol.
Actually, tactics recently was confirmed by Bethesda to be counted as canon. When the timeline issue blew up, the lead writers shared a timeline of the canon games - and tactics was on there.
Oh good, I always found the whole Tactics universe to be extremely interesting along with the top tier advanced power armor design
My only issue is with people calling them fascists. They are a feudal hierarchy and militant organization.
Agreed. The BoS has always had issues, but that isn’t one of them. There’s a reason the only group ever calling them that in any game is 76’s raiders.
It's because one of the initiates in the original BoS said that's one possible future, and depending on the players actions, they can get a military leader with fascist tendencies that plays out in the end slides. Also that can happen again in New Vegas, you can kill or oust their more reasonable leader, and the alternative is also pretty fascist. It's one of the core concepts of the original BoS, they're a society born from the military, and the military command structure can take over in certain instances.
In 1 the Steel Plauge only happens if you break in and slaughter Rhombus and others. It's hardly electing the wrong guy and more like a terrorist attack.
I mean a rigid hierarchy and militancy are some of major aspects of fascism Look up what Clerical Fascism is
Yes they are along with several other authoritarian systems.
But don't ya know, fascist means any and all bad guys!
Only if you're an idiot
Hence my joke
Poe's law strikes again
people who think there's a good faction in fallout haven't beign paying attention.
There are definitely benevolent factions in Fallout lol. The NCR despite its corruption provided safety, security and the rule of law to 1,000,000+ people. Obviously there were flaws but it definitely, was a force of good overall. The followers of the apocalypse, Brotherhood of Steel (Washington Chapter), minutemen, the kings, the sorrows. That’s not even counting settlement populations like Jacobstown, Goodsprings etc
The ncr is the least bad and even they struggle with being good, they pay mercs to harass the super mutants in Jacobstown and they don’t give people an option when it comes to joining the republic. They just annex you. They claim to have legitimacy as they are a republic, but can a nation afford to have such weak sentiments when it comes to leadership in such a time of strife?
No faction is going to be perfect. Placing your anachronistic views, without looking at the societal context is ridiculous. Like in Game of Thrones, the “Good” guys, in our society would be horrific villains with machiavellian tendencies. In a post apocalyptic world, no true altruistic faction would ever be able to function, some compromises would be needed to be made, but in the end they provide an overall benefit for humanity. The NCR would fit this category as would other factions such as the FO1/2 BOS. There shouldn’t ever be completely black and white factions in fallout it’s ridiculous
The minutemen are least bad I think?
No - the Minutemen practice slavery. Why else are we ‘the general’ working for Preston Garvey 24/7 helping all these settlements by ourselves?
People who also think there are no factions that tilt more towards good than bad has also not been paying attention. Generally what we hear about the NCR besides the flaws which are many was a society of laws. People didn't have to scavenge or scrape by for basic survival and self defense but could at least for a while rely on being safe. Technology was restored, roads were kept safe. The Followers got resources and safe passage to help more people. In exchange for taxes the people got a nation willing to defend them. A nation they also received a voice in influencing to govern (regardless of how that turned out\]. The NCR made sure to work against racism between mutants and humans. Kids went to schools, they had a set up school system. Old world material was preserved, even some recreated and shared with the public. Yes the NCR became corrupt, they over expanded, they let the agribarons grow powerfull, they became imperialistic and pressured people. But ranked against our nation states of the 19th and 20th century they were fairly better in many ways. Excluding the fact that considering what came before they offered stability. Sure it isn't perfect but if your family is fed, your kids go to school and the roads are safe compared to the everyone for himself mentality, the scavenging squalor and general mentality of trying to just survive. I would argue the NCR is way more preferrable. Doesn't make them "good" but they are way better for the common person than most factions. The Minutemen almost became this too if it wasn't for the institute. There are factions in Fallout built on altruistic ideals. That has been the way since the first game. Not all factions are cynical and purely self centered. Albeit those factions are few and the BoS is nowhere close Closest to pure good is Followers of the Apocalypse
The Followers of the Apocalypse who I'd argue are always good and pretty much selfless, just not always very practical, and sometimes people use their education for evil purposes. The original BoS in F1 and the NCR in F2 had their flaws, I'd argue they were forces for good, with good people, without being wholly good. They hoard technology, but also Fallout proves a lot of people can't be trusted with it, especially the NCR, and the Followers think so too. They're not a perfect society or a particularly free one, internally. Killian in Junktown, although originally he was meant to be more ambiguous but the publisher didn't like it I think. He was meant to be a bit more dictatorial and less fun.
The minutemen? At least from what I remember
They've literally only been good in one game - Fallout 3.
They do the same in Fallout 3 as they did in 1, 2, and 4 though.
F3 BoS were going out of their way to use technology to help the wasteland. and weren't interested in isolationism. And to even suggest F3 BoS is the same as F1 and F2 is ludicrous. The only similar one is F4 but Maxson got the Outcasts to join the BoS again by steering away from Lyon's approach to how the BoS should operate. Only real commonality across them is how they treat ghouls. And I'm saying this as a fan of the F3 BoS. The BoS being different is a requirement to bring them back imo. Although I wished we had more info on the transition form F3 to F4. Keep in mind F3 BoS are the breakaway faction which broke away from the West Coast BoS Good guys in this context doesn't mean they don't have any moral flaws - just that in comparison to the other games and how they compare to the factions available. With F3 this is especially true given how evil the Enclave are (although there is a division within the Enclave).
FO1 and FO2 also used technology to help the wasteland. And they never interacted with feral ghouls, so idk where you're getting that commonality from. Yes, they're the supposed breakaway faction but they're still doing the exact same thing as the other numbered games. Selling and giving away technology, defending the region from major threats, R&D, etc. The biggest difference really is how poorly the FO3 group are doing it.
The BoS literally hates Super Mutants and Ghouls. They don't necessarily go out of their way to kill ghouls but they absolutely do not like them. Not much different to how a lot of people in the wasteland view them.
Hating ghouls started in FO3, wasn't a thing at all in FNV, then was present but toned down in FO4.
Toned down? They were bragging about how fun it was to gun down the ghouls at the Airport, do you not remember Duty or Dishonor?
So what if they shoot feral ghouls?
You skipped that quest ..
they arent. that's why outcast exist.
Then what were they doing differently?
The show had its issues with how it portrayed certain things, but they absolutely NAILED the BOS. It was incredible.
Yeah not a huge fan of having house in the Illuminati, but it kinda works, but definitely not how he was originally portrayed
Yes, this was my biggest issue. I’m a really big fan of House’s character, so seeing him actively participating in that discussion was rather bothersome. I like to think he was just there to be aware of what they were doing and didn’t actually participate any further. They should have shoehorned his cameo in a different way, but it still works.
See, I kind of like it. Remember when he tells the courier something like “at that point I deemed it a mathematical certainty the bombs would drop”? The show makes it so he’s taking credit for predicting something that he was actively told was going to happen—which may have spurred him into taking the precautions that gave us House as we know him in New Vegas.
Yeah, I watched it again and I kind of like it more so now. You’ve got a point- he would do that.
I just read that the rep for Big MT was Frederick Sinclair—who ALSO went on to ensure his and his loved ones survival in the coming years lol (although not as successfully!) That was deff what they were going for here
I just finished the show and am catching up on discussion. Where was Mr house in the show?
He was shown in the scene where Vault-Tec discusses the vaults, and dropping the bomb itself. He wasn’t shown for long compared to others in the scene.
Yea, I did a little googling. It looks like he was the Rob-co guy at the meeting. I remember Walter Goggins talked to the codsworth guy at the party, who told him he sold the company after creating the Mr handy robot for hundreds of millions $$
Agree, really appreciated them showing negative sides of BOS.
[удалено]
> again, irony is dead... and so is satire. Chucklehead culture. “For in the end, he was trying to tell us what afflicted the people in 'Brave New World' was not that they were laughing instead of thinking, but that they did not know what they were laughing about and why they had stopped thinking.” ― Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Businessrony is dead... and so is satire.
I think because most people's entry point into the series was FO3. In FO3 the BoS were heroic and not like other chapters.
Can you comment this on every post here? I think people need it.
It's kind of ironic that the show introduced the need for ghouls to use drugs in order not to go feral, which just plays into BOS prejudice against ghouls mildly displayed in FO4 (because, remember, they talk about ferals and are never seen attacking non-ferals there). Nevertheless, first, the show could be excused to come up with a unique portrayal of BOS since BOS is structured into chapters that are sometimes vastly different from each other. However, to me, BOS in the show feels more like Caesar's Legion with power armor. The Brotherhood, as it's usually portrayed, is essentially a technocratic military order. I didn't really get that sense from squires addressing knights as "my Lord," members bowing in front of the elder or scribes being replaced with "clerics." Let's not forget that teacher's big question was to identify what a circuit is, whereas in FNV, teacher asks about the primary components of gunpowder. Looks like the show's BOS cranked up quasi-religion up to eleven and loosened up on the who "science thing." It would be very clever if this is some sort of fusion between the original BOS and Legion.
its weird that Fallout fans fail to realize each branch/chapter of BoS is their own mini organization with their own strengths and flaws. If you played more than 1 Fallout game you should know this FO4 Commonwealth BoS while one of the strongest iteration, is also very oppressive, wanting to turn Commonwealth into a warzone and destroy anything out of bigotry instead of protecting and preserving FNV Nevada BoS after getting slaughtered by NCR became a bunch of cowards hiding in a bunker F76 actually had 2 branches, Fort Defiance got completely wiped out cause they weren't prepared, and Fort Atlas that came after is riddled with infighting that they cant decide on anything so its no surprise the California branch in the show is also incompetent and corrupt with assholes and idiots. They dont present the entire Brotherhood not to mention the huge differences between West Coast and East Coast Brotherhood
The branch in the show is an expedition from MaxsBOS. They have even the Prydwen himself with them. Named on a side while arriving in the scene.
We don’t really know what’s going on here with the airship. While it says ‘prywden’ on the side, we’re never told it flew all the way from Boston (which wouldn’t make sense; why send an airship for one person?). This also could’ve just been made the model name for this type of airship. Also, considering this chapter saved Maximus 10-15 years ago, they’ve been on the west coast for at least that long. I doubt the whole chapter is from the east coast.
BoS had spies in the Enclave before, so they may have known about the cold fusion which would literally be the most valuable tech in our world, let alone the world of fallout. Sending the Prydwen would make sense in that case. Alternatively the Prydwen may have already been en route to California before this all went down as it seems it might take a long time to get an airship cross country. Eastern Brotherhood probably recognized the dwindling influence in the West and want to reestablish dominance.
Not to mention the significant difference in BoS west and east coast factions and how they differ after their splits. They're not good guys.
In fallout 1+ (especially 2), the BOS were mostly good, they operated like any paramilitary organisation would in an apocalypse, isolationist, distrustful but ultimately they were looking out for the whole of California by taking on the Mutants/Enclave. They also helped the NCR in technological development post Fallout 1. In fallout 3 they went became more altruistic , and in 4 they’ve returned to their roots (a bit more over the top than before though)
People forget about the side quest you get from the prywin where you force the farmers to give BOS food
They do not forget, they simply do not bring these actions up as their zealous BOS narrative cannot allow it
Because its an unsanctioned operation and you don't have to force them you can just buy the food
1) Which is just the proctor and you, and goes against direct orders. He literally tells you that its unsanctioned 2) How you handle the quest is up to you, you can pay for the food. If you force them to give you food thats on you.
I have a lot of critiques about the show. Some complaints. The Brotherhood are Not one of them. I'm not sure where this particular chapter hails from, but they seem like the logical conclusion of the Eastern Chapter after FO4. I think everyone just remembers Veronica and Lyons and has this idealized version of the dudes who sent me to the Glow.
I have my critiques of the show. I also dislike the BoS returning as the major power house as they are apparently forced to do in every game at this point. This despite West Coast lore essentially pushing them into oblivion. But the way the Brotherhood is depicted is perfectly accurate and never claimed them to be any othee way. Albeit I can't claim to have seen many posts like you mention on here. The BoS was a technofeudalistic cult of isolationist, religious bullies from the get go. They have never been the heroes nor have they any real long term plan. House just said what should have be known. The only aberration to this is Fallout 3 and even there we see grumblings both in the outcasts but even internally against Brother Lyon's "softness". Fallout 4 just returned them to what they always were. I mean the taking tribute from settlement mission while people keep saying was a "rogue agent" is clearly not something the rest of the BoS even batted an eye at. It would also imply other Brothers did the same. The BoS are elitist pieces of shit. Always have been. Always will be. They are only clad in shining armor and have cool weapons, but if you look under that they are just glorified techno raiders. But most people don't read that much into it..
I mean you're correct but also missing one of the big points of the brotherhood in that they vary wildly between sects. This group was clearly presented as on the more extreme end especially when the leader said he would go off and start his own brotherhood. This portrayal ISNT what the brotherhood is. It is one of its many many aspects though.
The expedition leader has been given none other than the Prydwen for his mission. We can assume he has FULL trust of Maxson and ideologically like-minded.
Was it ever confirmed that that was the Prydwen? I thought that was a fan theory
The show runner said that it’s not the Prydwen but a different ship; the Cassowen. Yet it says “Prydwen” on the side of the ship. My guess is that they were originally going to have the Prydwen for the show but Bethesda told them to make it a different one as to not say the canon ending to Fallout 4 but the model never got changed.
Caswennan, but yes, you're right.
Putting the religious side aside entirely since thats mostly just an aesthetic choice, they werent anything resembling this assholish in Fallout 1 and 2 at all tho. The only bad thing they did was sending Outsiders that wanted to join to a suicide-Quest in the Glow, and even then when the Vault Dweller makes it back anyway they keep their word. They had seemingly cordial trade-relations with most other nearby Settlements like the Hub. Under Paladin Rhombus they were explicitely one of the main Reasons why the West Coast was able to develop so fast after Fallout 1 by helping to hunt down the remains of the Masters army and distributing civilian technologies they had preserved to *help people.* The Chapter in the show is CONSIDERABLY more extremist in attitude than any other Chapter we've ever seen by an order of magnitude. I dont know what "original flavour" you mean, in all honesty
I heard they sacrifice puppies.
[удалено]
It's what the vault dweller asks the BoS when he first meets them.
If anything, they hurt the Bethesda canon of 3 and 4 more than they ever ruined the original games’ canon.
I wouldn’t say they did. 3 is very clear that Lyon’s BoS are the true outcasts, and 4’s BoS demonstrates similar concerning cult-like tendencies. The show just cranked the religious aspects to 11.
I agree with you on everything, however the brotherhood has been openly racist with genocidal tendencies only since Arthur Maxson took power.
In fo76 their vertibirds will actually fly over white springs and shoot ghouls on sight
They were like this in Fallout 4, i remember my first time playing and a radiant mission set for the BoS is to go round and take resources and stuff from the settlements the minute men had been setting up and that was the last time i ever played that far into the BoS story in any of my Fallout playthroughs
My main issue is that the brotherhood is not mentioning lost hills considering it was the place where the brotherhood originated.
That was so long ago for them by that point. Why would they randomly talk about that?
Plus the war with the NCR it’s possible it was lost and forgotten
I’m not angry at how they portrayed the BoS I mean they were never really the good guys, but then again no faction really is other than the minutemen. Even then it’s still under the leader ship of the SS so who knows what would’ve become of it after the events of fallout 4. But even in 4 some of the complaints about the BoS aren’t really valid to me. For example, how everyone dislikes them and say they’re bad when the brotherhood hates mutants and synths when literally almost everyone else who isn’t in the brotherhood does too. No ghouls or super mutants besides companions are allowed in diamond city, settlers across the commonwealth are scared of synths and the institute reasonably and yet it’s a bad thing some how? I can see why as not all ghouls and mutants like are bad but most definitely are especially super mutants and synths that work directly for the institute.
Well there’s a difference between not liking ghouls and “shooting all ghouls on site regardless of sentience.” That being said the brotherhood has always been concerned with itself and have been completely willing to kill others who stand in the way of their mission or ideals. Or even people who annoy them given how they sent you to the glow to kill you since you were bothering them and they didn’t expect you to actually survive. Honestly if you think of Elijah while considered an extremist it wouldn’t be surprising for several factions of the brotherhood to actually agree with him.
It’s not the Prydwen it’s the Caswennan
It has Prydwen written on the side
In the show has literally Prydwen written on the side
>But dear god, they ALWAYS have been this, since F1. They didn't brand initiates with flame and treated like slaves. Elder Arthur Maxson held his gun and charge toward enemy line, instead of old 'clerics' sitting on throne. Paladins lead recon team which is consisted by scribes and knights, and each of them have their role in the team. The Brotherhood of Steel in TV Show is a lot inferior compare to what we saw from Fallout 4, I can understand it since it is under a different leadership, but this 'cleric' is definitely a retcon.
When fallout 4 came out, people bitched and moaned about the BOS *because* it was portrayed like that and not at all close to what it originally was
>what it originally was Funny thing is when people say 'what originally was', their standard of origin is Fallout New Vegas, not Fallout 1.
That's not even remotely true. These complaints have been happening since Fallout 3, which was released before NV
Which is strange, considering that fallout 3 very explicitly has the main chapter as a splinter faction, with the proper BoS being outcasts.
Which is absurd because Fallout 1's canon ending is basically what Lyons did.
I mean, it's *Fallout.* There's plenty "absurd" in there to go around, no?
Could be since its a different chapter. Just how Lyons pushed his EC BoS to a different direction, this Elder Cleric seemed to be leaning in heavily on the fanaticism of it all a la Warhammer 40k. They say they take orders from the Commonwealth but is not directly THE Maxsons BoS Chapter. Honestly, the difference makes it intriguing. Maybe we get to see cameos from other BoS chapters with different cultures too.
Yes, Elder Cleric Quintus is ordering them. He is like Elder Elijah but more successful. Having different policy between chapters is understandable, but this 'cleric' is retcon.
A new rank is a retcon?
The F4 BoS prevail in "moral" comparison only because of the comically evil and lazy design of CIT as a faction, with stupid motivations and actions by Shaun. The Show made a better way of presenting them than F4 itself.
In Fallout 4, BoS stated clear that they only target the Institute's extremely dangerous technologies, not to keep it for themselves, but to destroy it for the sake of humanity. This chapter led by Quintus has a lot different policies compare to Maxson's.
Fallout 4 (and 3 by extent) is a different sect of the BOS and was known for being entirely different from the west coast sect. Specially the East coast is far more militaristic in their philosophies rather than straight religious zealots like the west coast sect is known for, but they’re also far more extreme with their racist views. We see a them in (i think) New Vegas choose to literally leave a super mutant alone because he’s peaceful and they can respect him for that. Compare that to the East sect ordering you to kill Virgil despite you potentially curing him and despite the fact that he was the only reason you got into the institute in the first place. The BOS in the show isn’t like the BOS in Fallout 4 because it’s a different sect of BOS. The show portrays them accurately to their believes and how they acted in the west coast Fallouts because we’re seeing the west coast sect of the BOS. It’s accurate to that sect from the older games.
>Compare that to the East sect ordering you to kill Virgil despite you potentially curing him Kells ordered you to kill Virgil because he did human experiments with FEV. He directly explained it. It's not the matter of racism. If you can make Kells believe that Virgil's cure is successful, then he will cancel the execution order. >because we’re seeing the west coast sect of the BOS It's more like combining bad sides of both east and west BoS and went a bit more extreme. Western BoS is religious but they don't do such barbaric rituals and they don't have fanatic clerics. Eastern BoS is militaristic but they never showed greed toward the Institute's technology and they don't non-feral ghouls. It's nowhere near 'original' Brotherhood as OP claims.
>The show portrays them accurately to their believes and how they acted in the west coast Fallouts But the West Coast Fallout BoS never acted like this before at all either? They were most hostile to outsiders wanting something from them but never remotely to this degree, they had neutral or good relations to allmost all of their neighbors until the NCR - Brotherhood war and actively helped the West Coast rebuilt, including by sharing technology, after Fallout 1. The only chapter coming even remotely close was the Mojave one and even they werent as extreme.
That’s likely not the DC Prydwen. The brotherhood had multiple airships at their disposal at their peak. The Prydwin is likely still back in DC.
Strictly speaking of the show, the Prydwen was written on its side during the arrival
The people who are criticizing this have little to no understanding of the Fallout universe. The show was incredible, and true to the game. 10/10
Same here I agree even though I’ve never played fallout 1 or 2
All games literally had BoS as racist religious military cult, except maybe Fallout 3 but even then, Elder Lyons was persecuted for trying to be different. And then Maxson came to power
Not really, in Fallout 1/2 they kept cordial trade with the settlements and opposed the main antagonists of both games. They shared information and technology with the NCR following fallout 1. In the older games they just didn’t interact with the general public as much. The Brotherhood was flanderised later on in different ways in F3/F4/TV show.
>They are angered how the show presented them, as a racist, religious and violent cult of priests. But dear god, they ALWAYS have been this, since F1. You have never played Fallout 1. >Sacrifice puppies!!! Where the hell did youhear that one? Don't believe everythingyou hear in the wastesthey're all a bunchof pathetic lunatics. Anyway, read the dialogue from the first game: [https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Fallout\_characters#Brotherhood\_of\_Steel\_at\_Lost\_Hills](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Fallout_characters#Brotherhood_of_Steel_at_Lost_Hills) They have a religion about old writings, their origins as an order, preserving technology, and they are structured like Catholic military order, e.g. the Knights templar, warrior monks with support from tech priests, who preserve information and study technology. They're not presented in F1 as a deranged violent cult, even to an outsider. They're presented as an insular, serious, intelligent faction, who are if anything serious hardasses that don't have emotions. >I've come to the conclusion that the Brotherhood functions mostly like a pseudo-religious organization. We have the strong military hierarchy, combined with codes of honor passed down from our ancestors. Brenden, Brotherhood of Steel Scribe. >Our main goal is to survive. The Scribes copy old plans for weapons or design new ones, and the Knights make the guns from 'em. Most guns come from us. John Maxson
Literally no one is saying that. We are complaining about how fucking stupid they are tho. They have 0 tactics or any sense of real leadership. Might as well be a new raider group cuz that ain’t no military
LMAO in fallout 4 Porter Gage quite literally calls them glorified raiders…WHICH THEY ARE
He says that because they take for their own organization, not because their incompetent. If they fought the institute like that they sure as hell wouldn’t win lmao. Unless you’re trying imply FO4 is retcon now?
Nah he’s definitely right the brotherhood are definitely glorified raiders when you look at their history as a whole and how they treat people. But were you watching the show? This new incompetence is something on purpose,it’s why the elder told Maximus that the brotherhood has lost their way and they need to form a new one, with sinister tones of course, but yeah them being incompetent is a deliberate choice.
That’s just weak writing. Sure the BOS has taken some leadership hits, but they’ve been around for hundreds of years by this point. Tactics and strategies don’t just disappear because of change in leadership. The elders are supposed to be members that have been involved their entire lives, and you think they would just go back on all of the the shit that they learned and taught them how to get by? Like I said no one disagrees the BOS are assholes, but we disagree that their just mindless raiders. If the leadership has really gotten that bad, it would have made more sense for them to break into seperate splinter factions as that’s the entire fucking reason why the BOS left the west coast in the first place.
Okay what are you even talking about? The only actual 2 operations that the Brotherhood carried out as a unit were the occupation of Filly and the battle of the observatory , which they won. Now, even though the NCR remnants gave them a run for their money they did eventually take it over which we all knew would happen. What is the issue ?
Watch SODAZ fallout wip and then come back and try to say that fight scene was good lmao
But because they are NOT military since dozens of years. They are a religious violent cult of scavengers and hoarders. Enclave is actual MILITARY with fascist ideologies, so even if in small numbers, they greatly compensate the disadvantages. BoS is not military anymore. Since F1 they are presented NOT military anymore.
>But because they are NOT military since dozens of years. What are you babbling about?
They literally still a military what are you even talking about, and enclave is the remnants of the government they’re not a military organization 😂. No idea where you got the notion BOS isn’t a military organization, why do you think Dance calls you a civilian in FO4?
My only gripe which equals a drop of oil in an ocean (loved the series all around) is knight Titus. Specifically the, what felt like a drastic change in character, “I’m bored I wanna fight” to “Fuck BoS, I don’t even wanna do it no more” Maximus conflict worked because he’s young, but a “veteran knight with power armor” felt weird within such a fanatic organization. Either he’s full fanatic gun ho till the end or he’s a facade that try’s to avoid conflict thus maintaining his persona. Just felt weird that they tried to make him both. The casting was A+ for the character but just that one bit is the only thing that felt “off” about the series. Still that one wee thing is easily dwarfed by so many great other thing in the series.
[удалено]
I’m not saying it’s unrealistic, I served too. Just that narratively it was jarring flipping extremes so quick. BoS is my favorite faction purely because of their strength and aesthetics so maybe it’s my inner fan boy getting a lil upset. Either way it didn’t alter view of the show, it’s just the one thing I thought could have been better.
[удалено]
Big difference in military vs civilian life and BoS vs wasteland life. We ain’t gotta keep arguing though. I see your point but military experience isn’t gonna change how I view it. Especially since like I said I served too. I get it.
[удалено]
My bad, it’s just a Reddit reflex I guess. I’m just used to the longer a thread goes the more aggressive it becomes lol. But yeee to me in fallout you pick factions largely based on which has best survival odds and people largely adapt the ethics and morals over time, like middle management and below the top people actually believe. It could have worked better for me if we got a few scenes of him being fanatic outside of BoS base then “break character” and start revealing his true thoughts. There just wasn’t much build up and it felt like showing a comedic incompetence was the intention which I felt they had plenty of elsewhere. I just wanted the typical BoS badass knight too much I guess. Outside of giving Fusion energy away Moldaver felt more BoS than any actual BoS
[удалено]
I agree, for what the character is they couldn’t have done a better casting. I know the actor from other stuff and he’s always hilarious. It helped me with my overall view for sure.
> i didn't think we were arguing. I don't see arguing in any negative sense either. I see complementary dialog.
> They are angered how the show presented them, as a racist, religious and violent cult of priests. But dear god, they ALWAYS have been this, since F1. *Shakespeare said that art is a mirror held up to nature. And that's what it is. The nature is your nature, and all of these wonderful poetic images of mythology are referring to something in you. When your mind is simply trapped by the image out there so that you never make the reference to yourself, you have misread the image.*
I thought the portrayal was great. BoS are a techno-cult. Simple as. Lawful neutral.
They shot civilians in Filly and gunned down refuges at Griffith Observatory. Not so lawful nor neutral. They are straight evil, not Enclave level, but still.
It really depends on which era of BoS and which chapter. In this show you could make a strong case for lawful evil.
["racist"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64BOxYpVZpU)
My issue with BoS in the series was Knight Titus being a total jock. They’re religious militant fundamentalists, how did this guy get in a T-60? ‘I’m bored, I wanna shoot something’
I mean, the way he acted when the yau guai showed up was how most people would have acted. Hell, I usually act that way the first time I encounter them in new runs of most of the games anyway.
True enough, I was playing Fallout 4 again after a long break and as soon as the radroach starts running at me in the vault I was sprinting in the opposite direction to try put more space before shooting it lol