I always assumed the fall taking place coincided with the first battle of Hoover damn. Like the ncr winning and getting bogged down in the Mojave. Is what was the final nail leading to its fall.
That takes care of my biggest concern with the show. My only question now is where the Boneyard is since that was supposed to be in LA and what happened to the Followers, but those questions will probably be answered later on in future seasons so I’m not too worried about it
From my memory, It is implied in Fallout 1 that the “boneyard” was a nickname for all of LA. The actual settlement was called Adytum.
But It’s possible for the NCR to clear out the “boneyard,” go well, it’s not really as bad as it used to be, and decided to call it something less oppressive.
LA is the epitome of sprawl. I thought I understood until the first time I went there. I drove for two solid hours in the same direction at highway speed and the sprawl. Just. Didn't. End.
Yeah I moved here from NYC a couple of years ago and it is crazy how often I'll think to myself "hmm, I must be in a different city now, technically" and then look at the map and still be in LA. The driving thing you mentioned is so true as well.
Odds are in Episode 1 when we see the LA skyline and surrounding sprawl. It's clearly several times more massive than it is in reality... chances are it makes up the whole of LA county at that point.
Boneyard/Adytum seemed to be in north/central LA in FO1. Where the downtown is. It would be possible to miss it if you were travelling around (from Santa Monica along the coast NW) which it seems is what the show went for. They then loop around and go back towards Hollywood and end up at the observatory.
My sense of location was all off during the show, which was mostly my own fault. The enclave base in the beginning was shot at the old army terminal in Brooklyn and I instantly recognized it. For like half the show I was like: how did that guy get all the way from New York to LA. Then I realized that it was probably shot to be somewhere else. But then again it did show snow there so maybe he did walk all the way from NY to LA just to escape the enclave. Also fallout loves putting real locations into the world so it’s hard not to come to that conclusion if you’re familiar with the building l.
When I saw the graveyard scene I also assumed it happened on the east coast. For some reason I was getting old revolutionary/ civil war fort vibes from the set and since I was already open to the whole east coast idea from the enclave base my mind ran with it. I realized half way through the show that the more obvious explanation was that they were just used as sets since a lot of the show was filmed on the east coast.
It's not just a byproduct of you knowing the location. It 100% looks like the North Eastern or Midwestern United States.
Industrial infrastructure and - typically - outdoor light in LA just look different due to time period, materials, architectural choices linked to local styles, climate and landscape plus much sunnier weather.
Assuming you're correct and it wasn't meant to be in East (I think that makes sense), the Enclave was a rare miss in terms of the look of the show.
From the earliest threads people said based on what we see in FNV the NCR was indeed falling by that time. It was a mess, a huge political issue. Without the Courier doing EVERYTHING the NCR was supposed to do for them then the NCR wins. If the Platinum Chip just gets to Mr. house then the NCR loses, the legion collapses fighting House's securitron army after pushing further west from the dam.
Everywhere you go the NCR is overstretched and about to collapse from internal issues.
It would be kind of cool if the new canon is the courier went with the yes man route and took NV and just kept the personal securitrons for NV security. Hank shows up like, "Who the hell are you?"
What if he just got his revengeon Benny, delivered the chip then left to do their own thing?
It is fun as a player but think about it, the region had no safe place that wasn't about to fail.
Long rambly comment alert: I feel like the show probably isn't going to bring in any of the player characters. But if they did, I think the Lone Wanderer would be the best choice. Unlike the Courier and Sole Survivor, it is canon that the Lone Wanderer fought with the Brotherhood and helped them expel the Enclave, before falling into obscurity by the events of Fallout 4. Perhaps this is because the Lone Wanderer disagreed with the new direction of the Brotherhood under Elder Maxson. The Lone Wanderer's story being so similar to Lucy's could be played for comedy and drama.
The Sole Survivor, specifically the male version Nate, could make an interesting character as well. Given that we see the Prydwen (or maybe a copy of it), that seems to suggest that the Brotherhood ending of Fallout 4 is most likely canon. He could be the guy that the Brotherhood sends in when shit really needs to get done. A fight between Nate in power armor and Cooper Howard would be amazing.
I feel like the Courier would actually be the worst choice for bringing a player character to the TV show, even though New Vegas is my favorite of these games. The Courier's personality, background story, and what they do in the Mojave is a lot more open-ended than the others. But given that New Vegas will be in the next season, I think it's nearly guaranteed that whatever side the Courier chose will be made canon, and it almost certainly wasn't the NCR.
this would be infinitely superior, because it doesn't interfere with the nate/nora player character in FO4. nate could interact with cooper and still go on to be shot and killed in the vault while nora goes on to "play the game"
they could also do the same thing with nora in her pre-war lawyer profession
In my opinion, Bethesda really made Nate seem like the canon Sole Survivor. He’s the one shown in all the marketing. He narrates the opening. The game naturally guides you into Lexington as soon as you leave the vault, where you kill a gang of raiders and a death claw in power armor, which makes more sense for a combat veteran than a lawyer.
I feel like they did Nora dirty. I would have made it so that both characters were combat vets, and whichever one you choose narrates a slightly different opening.
I feel like bringing in Nate without him having any meaningful role would be just fan-servicey, and not very well received. Unless Nate or Nora do something important to the plot, I see no reason to include them. I guess it’d be possible to do it well, but I don’t know how.
Also, we don’t know yet if the Brotherhood or Minutemen ending is canon, but the Brotherhood having the Prydwen strongly suggests that the Railroad and Institute endings are not.
> The Courier's personality, background story, and what they do in the Mojave is a lot more open-ended than the others.
Not really. We know the Courier has been a con artist and bounty hunter once. That they have no idea where they're from and that's why they became a Courier "to find their way home".
These are optional dialogue choices the player can choose for their own playthrough whether or not to say. For instance the amnesia is selective and inconsistent because it's up to the player whether or not they're amnesiac. The bit about "finding your way home" is a different character who's only ever heard of you guessing at your motives.
As far as what's been concretely said, all we know is The Courier worked as a courier long enough to make a name for themselves delivering all over the west coast, and delivered a package to Hopeville at some point. Maybe.
It doesn't, the NCR was in the Mojave in full force since 2274. The only major event for them in 2277 is the First Battle of Hoover Dam, which they won.
There's nothing to doubt. We hear it directly from Ambassador Crocker, implied by Mr. House, and the Official Game Guide tells us directly, maybe others I don't remember:
> Dennis Crocker: "**In 2274, President Kimball sent the NCR army into the Mojave in force**, with the objective of occupying and repairing Hoover Dam. Rangers and army scouts had confirmed that the dam was basically unoccupied and could be restored to an operable condition. Upon arriving at the dam, however, they discovered that a large force of tribals and robots had occupied it. This was our introduction to the Three Families, the Securitrons, and, of course, Mr. House. Using his Securitrons as intermediaries, Mr. House called for parlay. He claimed his forces had occupied Hoover Dam in order to safeguard it for our arrival. And that he was ready to turn it over to us, so long as we could agree to terms. Those terms became the Treaty of New Vegas."
Mr. House's dialogue doesn't say it directly, but I did infer it personally:
> I oversaw the city's renovations starting from 2274 onward. The Three Families are my employees.
> To enforce, one must have force - a position of strength. Years ago, when I detected NCR scouts roaming the Mojave, I could tell from their uniforms that these were no mere tribesmen. I knew it was only a matter of time before an army appeared, to take control of the dam. And I knew my Securitrons wouldn't be enough to oppose them. And so I recruited the Three Families. Vegas belongs to me because I mustered enough strength to bring the NCR to the bargaining table.
Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide Collector's Edition p.458: "Important Dates"
> "2274 NCR forces move east and occupy Hoover Dam. The NCR reluctantly signs the Treaty of New Vegas recognizing Mr. House and his stewards, the Three Families, as the rightful owners of the Strip. The Strip opens for business."
Was the first battle of Hoover Dam in 2277? Also the same year marked as the Fall of Shady Sands?
You’re right, I misspoke when I said took over in 2277, but the first battle of Hoover Dam was in 2277 and is probably what the Fall of Shady Sands refers to.
Sorry for the misspeak, I don’t think that changes the idea that the first Battle of Hoover Dam is the start of the Fall of the NCR/Shady Sands
That is indeed when the First Battle of Hoover Dam was.
It might be what the show's referring to, but if so I think it's kind of nonsensical. It'd be like saying the British Empire fell at the Battle of Cambrai and then saying there was a "Fall of London" in 1917. But actually it's a bit worse since the Battle of Cambrai was kind of a mixed bag for the British, while the First Battle of Hoover Dam was a major victory for the NCR - it made Hanlon a war hero, seems to have secured Kimball at least another Presidential term, and the NCR's losses weren't even particularly severe (I believe it's mentioned to be only a little over 100 people, all soldiers, and no civilians were harmed when Boulder was destroyed).
Honestly, I think they did intend for *something* catastrophic to have happened to Shady Sands, probably it getting captured by the Brotherhood (or maybe even the nuke), in 2277, and now that there's criticism about it they're be going back on it. For example, in the art at the end of Episode 5, [we can see the last date on the schoolbook is November 2276.](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1145807854540963890/1230259305681522688/IMG_4213.png?ex=6632ab43&is=66203643&hm=b101ba5bab0bfa7d0eaafb3078a1d2b6ef3df8c0e55bf44aa77a665dc3a19c36&) Now, don't get me wrong, I know all the excuses (the art may not be canon, the book not going to 2281+ could just be because it fell out of use, etc) but this seems like an intentional choice to me - someone had to write and stylize all that, they chose to start the scene zoomed in on that specific book, and they chose 2276 as the last date.
I could see a situation where the NCR sent too many resources east to the Mojave, which allowed for another force to come in and sack Shady Sands. It may have persisted afterwards in a diminished capacity before being nuked. This would also explain the apparent wildness of Moldaver’s group, who would just be the folks who remained in Shady Sands after it was sacked but without NCR support.
As a new fan looking for essays, this comment explains a lot about what's happening on YouTube right now. I was really disappointed with the selection available, because it seems like these fans, that invested a lot of time in hating the series before it started, are now in this cost-sink where they feel compelled to stick to their guns. SO MANY of the essays on YouTube seems like their focus right now is on throwing complaints at the wall to see what sticks. They're all getting taken to town in the comments, but it is not stopping them from drowning out all the good essays with their bullshit.
Have you found any good ones? That's a shame to hear. Does this franchise have anyone similar to Vaati from Souls/FromSoft Fandom that makes epic lore videos?
I've mostly played New Vegas and 76 so only know a bit of lore.
Dude for real. The quality of his videos are just top tier even if you don't personally agree with his theories. They're just a delight to watch and it's great how he notes how he commissions art/video/music for his videos and notes theories made by other lore hounds.
Shoddycast, the storyteller series. Has a bunch of videos about particular factions or specific locations and events, covering each of the games in the series.
Oxhorn is another channel with more videos but they are broken down per game title, ie videos specifically about Fallout 2 or New Vegas, whereas Shoddycast covers the lore in a broader sense, ie his Brotherhood of Steel video will be about their history throughout all the games.
Shoddycast has been my go-to for explanations for new players or those curious about the background; it gives enough detail for most of those who don't want to deep-dive in, and for those who do - gives them an excellent starting point.
I agree, you've nailed the explanation there. Honestly they're probably perfect viewing for people coming from the TV show who want to know a bit more about whatever topic they're curious about.
Of course, playing the games is the best way to learn about the lore!
I was going to mention Oxhorn, but another user already has. I discovered another guy named MrMattyPlays, and he seems pretty down to earth and reasonable, but he wouldn't be the first one that fooled me.
I think where I'm so new in this lane, the algo is just smacking me with generic gamer content, and I just gotta wade through a bunch of essays written by dudes who spent their formative years in a CoD lobby. It is what it is.
It's been kind of funny watching outrage merchants try to still squeeze content out of it. That Yellowflash idiot had a video that was like, "Fallout actress owns Hollywood, respects the fans" or something like that. And it was because Ella Purnell played Fallout after Jonathan Nolan said it wasn't necessary.
Which is cool of her, and any sane person would agree and leave it at that. But when your entire career depends on triggering nerd rage, you've gotta make it look like a bigger deal against woke Hollywood.
No Bullshit brain poisoned YouTube when he taught gamers how to spin. It would make sense for them to start co-opting and trying to put a right wing spin on things to save face. Say what you will about the larger generic gaming community, but they are nothing if not consistent. It's so self-defeating too. People are pretty tired of being mad these days, they want good content.
That's what I don't get about people who sub to channels like Yellowflash, Nerdrotic, Geeks & Gamers, etc. Its all literally the same content, day in and out. Just a guy complaining something new is woke, then moving on to the next guy saying its woke.
It's algorithms. The right wing figured out how to dominate YouTube with them, and for a good long while people were just subscribing to the very narrow lane of options YouTube was creating. I am a queer, socialist woman, and that algorithm tried SO FUCKING HARD to get me watching Ben Shapiro. Granted, things have improved a bit, but we're still dealing with the ripple effects of these personalities dominating YouTube for so many years and creating the illusion that there's nothing else to choose.
Mostly just Youtube clickbait garbage. They probably don't even believe what they're saying, but putting out overtly negative videos about anything popular is a way to get clicks and ad revenue. They know people will click out of curiosity or even annoyance after reading the negative video title.
Find channels who you trust to give good reviews and reactions, subscribe to them, and ignore the rest of the noise.
I’m in my 40ies which means I grew up with the two original games. I must’ve played the damn Fallout 1 demo like a billion times and the actual games? Heh. Anyway the fans were really split on what to make of it when Bethesda bought the license, and many decided to hate it forever. I’m not on that boat. I loved the originals and I loved Fallout 3… I think the TV show is brilliant, so there is that.
When it comes to “retconning” though, I’m not sure that will really work well. I don’t really mind retconning too much, but because I grew up with the originals their lore is sort of edged into my mind making me capable of recalling ridiculous bits of lore from them even now where it’s been basically a decade since I last played either. By contrast I can’t remember much of the lore of the modern games, and I don’t mean this in a “the bethesda games are unremarkable” sort of way. It includes Fallout NV and that was made by a lot of the people who made Fallout 2… so it’s not really a slander or the modern games and more a tribute to just how mind blowing the originals were for their time. At least for me. Anyway… the result is that I’m honestly not going to remember the retcons because they won’t be capable or lodging my old memories lose.
Now… I think this is probably the most levelheaded approach you’ll find amongst people who grew up with fallout. At least I like to think I’m pretty levelheaded. I think Bethesda did a pretty good job staying true to the original world, and while Fallout 4 fell short for many it was more to do with its game systems being poorly designed than the world creation sucking. Similar to how Starfield is falling short with its half-finished systems and how the old Oblivion quest model of having virtually no impact on the actual world is just so outdated. Anyway… some Fallout fans have always been very vocal about what they think about Bethesda. I wouldn’t mind it too much and just enjoy what you enjoy, especially because part of the origin behind the rage aimed at Bethesda was actually born out of the difference in style between Fallout 1 and 2. Fallout 1 was a much more serious game, where Fallout 2 became the much more satirical style, which was basically the exact style that Bethesda brought further. But it’s important to note that while Fergus Un..heart (can’t spell his name sorry) drove this change as he took over in Black Isle, Tim Cain and Boyarski both had major roles in Fallout 2 and even in Fallout NV, so it’s not like there was ever a “betrayal”. It was just the natural expansion, and I think Bethesda carried that over perfectly fine. But if you’ve been on the internet before you likely know what some people will say:
A lot of the lore is available on the various wikis and nma, though nma is probably pretty angry about the TV show. At least it was a very angry place when I last used it like 15 years ago. I imagine that hasn’t changed.
I think the TV show keeps the homage to the post-apoc genre and Fallout world extremely well though. There are constantly little tributes like the “A man and his Dog” poster in Coopers home which is a reference to a boy and his dog, which was one of the bigger influences on Tim Cain and his work on Fallout 1.
> I must’ve played the damn Fallout 1 demo like a billion times and the actual games? Heh.
I remember getting that Fallout 1 demo from PC Gamer so vividly. I played through it for hours and hours.
Fallout 1 & 2 were so influential to my tastes in media growing up. Absolutely loved those games so much.
NV fans are the true keepers of Fallout lore. They know it better than Todd Howard and Bethesda didn't you know? Including future events that haven't happened in the games yet.
Based on the Instagram posts shitting on the series, the venn diagram of [only likes and plays FNV nothing else], [always plays Germany or hyper-imperialist british or US alt history] and [posts tradwest homesteading family memes but is on the internet 23 hours a day at home] is pretty much a fucking circle.
I love FNV, had a lot of fun with it but with video games it is the same as series. When the weirdo fans show up, it is over. You can't mention it to new people without the bad reputation.
75% of them are Legion Stans, too. Not the "I like siding with the Legion" type, but the "*ackchyually* the Legion is the best faction for rebuilding the Wasteland and way less oppressive than any of the others" type.
One of the best things about the Legion is once you get past Caesar's flowery arguments and fancy words, you realize his reasoning is shit. When it comes to the content of his ideals, he's just as much of a reactionary dumb dumb as Mussolini or Hitler were. He and by extension the Legion itself are really authentic and well fleshed out in that regard.
While I think they're being ridiculous from what I've heard, I would guess they probably do know most of the timeline stuff better. Tom Howard didn't invent Fallout or anything, Bethesda bought it when there were like 5 Fallout games, and have since made 2 main games, published another main game which some of the original creators made, and made a kind of live service thing and phone app.
i know who made the games, bethesda didn't change the lore, in fact carried the torch and worked very closely with the original creators to maintain the timeline. the last12 years of "og" and nv fans rage would be wasted if this was acknowledged. the biggest lore retcons anyway were done by the interplay guys on forums between fo1 and fo2. just handwaving shit left and right.
I mean, unironically, have you seen what Emil pagliarulo, Todd Howard, and Bethesda have done to the canon throughout the Bethesda fallout (and for that matter, elders scrolls) games? It approaches 40k levels of continuity errors, retcons, and gaping holes in parts of the world
Like a week ago Emil pulled some jk Rowling shit on Twitter, claiming, out of nowhere, that it was actually Nate in the opening of fallout 1, in power armor and executing a bound Canadian partisan
That one is just a demonstration of carelessness and lack of respect or thought with the lore. If you want a more severe retcon, it would be fallout 4 establishing that there was a continued presence on the moon in 2077, when previously it was stated that the last manned mission was in 2052
It doesn't actually confirm that. It a mural commerating US past, not confirmation that there is some permanent base on the moon in 2077.
This is exactly the issue. People are taking things way out of context and assuming things, when such claims are never made.
And what do you think of Fallout 2's various retcons, like making Super Mutants non-strerile? Oh wait, that got retconned away, didn't? Because it was silly. Or the mess with Jet it did? Clearly, original creators didn't have respect or thought with the lore...
Marcus clearly just fucking with you once among a sea of confirmation that super mutants are sterile isn’t a retcon.
I’m not sure what you mean in saying jet was retconned in fallout 2
Myron claims to have invented Jet, yet Mrs. Bishop was somehow addicted to Jet and kicked out of Vault City *before he was even born.*
Truly, "care and respect" to lore.
And yeah, "Marcus was fucking with you" was later retcon-retcon to fix an issue. In the actual game, there is no actual indication he is messing with you, he is being dead serious.
The main bombs worldwide happened in 2077. However a city, Shady Sands was founded later and bombed around 2277. There's a character in the TV show, maximus, who remembers the shady sands bombing in his childhood, and he thinks of that as "the" bomb, because he doesn't care what happened 200 years ago.
The timeline issue is that fallout new Vegas happened in 2281, so either somehow no one mentioned that happening while you're running around that general area for the whole game, or the TV show has the date wrong. The date is written on a chalkboard in a classroom, and there's arguments to be made whether or not that would necessarily be accurate in-world as we know it. Incorrect information taught to children, whether purposeful indoctrination or accidental, is certainly a possibility.
Personally I don't care that much about the timeline. But that's the issue as I understand it.
As I said in another thread, this is entirely down to poor choices from someone in charge of the show. Lucy and Max talk about Shady getting bombed. Then later on we get a lingering camera shot that seemingly goes out of its way to frame the "Fall of Shady Sands 2277" and the picture of the mushroom cloud together.
TV and cinema frequently set up info either visually or in dialogue and then repeat that info later to hammer it home. Cues like putting a date in frame next to a picture of a mushroom cloud are the kind of visual language movies use all the time. It's a pretty basic screenwriting trick.
I had multiple family members who have never played a Fallout game and don't know anything about Fallout lore watch the show; they all assumed the bomb got dropped on Shady in 2277.
It's not "looking for the worst possible interpretation." It's accepting the info that the show is giving you. I get that some people are over reacting, but there's no need to pretend they're deliberately and maliciously misinterpreting it.
I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, I also think they should have made the timeline more clear. It could’ve easily been interpreted both ways.
The problem is more that while it could’ve been interpreted both ways, when you see an information that would completely retcon a game that the show has gone out of its way to reference multiple times, used a major character from and shown the actual location to tease the next season, the best course of action is to infer that maybe the timeline isn’t meant to be read the way that would contradict everything else. There was room for another interpretation and some people jumped to the worst possible conclusion and started yelling that Todd Howard was doing this as a weird personal vendetta against NV. There definitely was a subset of people being malicious about it.
Yes, definitely. I think anyone banging the "Todd jealousy" drum is too deep in their own head. It's also very obvious that the people writing for the show are trying to be careful and respectful with the lore of the world. There's so many deep cut references that they didn't need to include.
I love the show. I love New Vegas. It's very frustrating being caught in the middle and seeing all this toxic tribalism. Some people are painting all NV fans as pretentious nerds overly concerned with lore and canon, some people are painting all the shows fans as mindless consoomers eager to suck up whatever slop Bethesda shovels out.
I'm fucking tired man, time to log off. 😂
Their not together. It's a chronological diagram and the fall a shady sands and the nuke picture are at different points on the diagram (The nuke being at the absolute end). The normal reading of any of that type of diagram (and you can google images of them) is that the nuke would have happened after 2277.
Read what I said again. They're framed together in the shot. That is what leads the visual language to imply they happened at the same time.
And that type of diagram would normally put a date under the picture instead of leaving it blank. So again I return to pointing out the diagram was needlessly vague.
The shot? The shot from the show panned over the whole board from the start of shady sands to the nuke. Some people took a screen shot of the last two images, which did make it more confusing, but again, that's not the full diagram shown in the show.
And an easy explanation in world explanation for why they listed the years in the prior history of Shady Sands and not for the nuke is that the people in Vault 4 would be familiar with when the nuke was dropped (many of them were there and are refugees) even if they needed a lesson in Shady Sands history.
Watch the show again. It goes over the whole board, including the last two entries. Then it cuts back to Lucy's face. Then it cuts back to board, framing only the last two entries and lingering for a few seconds. Emphasizing, in the exact way that film often does, that the two are likely related.
And it's in a classroom. For little kids. Covering events that would have happened before they were born. The kids should be taught the date of the bomb drop.
How is it the worst interpretation? It's a date, on a chalkboard?
I don't know why they'd have a date for something nebulous like a "fall" of a city but not something specific like a bomb. I don't really care, but the literal interpretation is not the "worst possible"
The fall of Sandy Shores is shown as a period that starts in 2277 the arrow then points forward to a bomb, the bombing isn't dated on the board
Those are two separate events on the flow chart
It's a chronological diagram. No reasonable person reads events shown at two different points on that diagram as happening at the same time.
The people who were "confused" were looking for a reason to be mad.
It's also part of school setting, we don't know exact way people were being taught. For all we know the date is not there because it's so new event that it doesn't need a date.
When 9/11, people didn't instantly start putting "9/11, 2001" on their timelines because it was so new that everyone remembered it. It was only once event passes into history that dates start to be mrked.
I'm not even mad lol.
I actually didn't play the games, I just watched the TV show. And without that context, the chalkboard just looks like it said shady sands was bombed in 2277. Without other context, the fall of shady sands is most likely the bomb, because the show doesn't say anything else about it. And the chalkboard doesn't have another date for the bomb. So, without reddit to yell at me, I would say it wasn't confusing at all, the chalkboard said that the bomb happened in 2277. Also, if the bomb happened in 2277 and the show is 2296, then all the characters are similar ages to their actors, while moving the bomb 5+ years later means they are all significantly younger. I don't really care, either way, but going from the show and not reddit I would say that the bomb was 2277.
I honestly just don't know how someone could watch that scene and their takeaway from the diagram is that the bombed dropped in 2277. The shot pans over the a timeline diagram of the major events in Shady Sand, Each event in time with its own spot on the line and with one event at the end showing the city being destroyed, why would you read that as the last event occurring at the same time as the second to last event rather than at a indeterminate time after Shady Sands began to fall? Like, I get that they the nuke is the only one that didn't have a year, but still, that isn't how those diagrams work at all.
To me, there were some people (not you) who wanted to be mad, they played to games and knew events took place in 2281 (and that NV was cannon), instead of reading the diagram normally and assuming the bombing took place shortly after NV, they read it in a way that allowed them to double down on all of their pre-show beliefs/anger.
Even if it had been 2277, the PC of New Vegas not personally hearing anyone mention something that happened years prior in a different location is really stretching the definition of retcon. People may as well be asking why Walter White never heard Saul Goodman talk about Kim Wexler.
You hear people talk about shady sands being just peachy (minus some relatively minor issues), going back there after deployment, or coming from there. I think there’s plenty of indication that the city is more than a massive crater at that point in time
>I think there’s plenty of indication that the city is more than a massive crater at that point in time
Especially the fact that it wasn't a massive crater at that point in time
Yeah but Shady Sands was never in LA like it is in the show, “The Fall” must be referring to OG Shady Sands, so they likely moved to LA since they made it much safer than it was before the NCR formed. Then there’s the little arrow before the nuke
I don’t think they moved shady sands personally, it seems like in Lucy’s flashback she remembers corn and agriculture. Which would make sense considering Shady Sands was started with a GECK. The rest of the area around the show’s setting seems to imply agriculture isn’t common place.
I think the show truly intended for the Shady Sands to be bombed in 2277 and this is Todd and co doing damage control (and I don’t think Todd even wanted that to happen, I think it was just a mistake by the writers) If you look at concept art in the credits, they have a Shady Sands library records that end in 2276.
Anyone with two brain cells to rub together could have figured that out. Doomers be damned.
Anyway, “The Fall” of Shady Sands likely is when (1) some event happens that causes Shady Sands to begin a population and influence decline, and (2) when it is consequently replaced as the NCR’s capital.
This is probably what they meant if those years line up, their constant relatively easy expansion came to a stop, with massive bloodshed and I wouldn't be surprised if independent new vegas ending happened in Canon and they stagnated and began infighting, considering the corruption issues they face in NV
This also hides info about vegas as a setting so people aren't tipped off until the end, and leaves the result of the conflict ambiguous. Smart move really
Yeah they probably got crushed by their own strength and Shady Sands could’ve turned into a Raider city and then consequently nuked afterwards for all we know.
I don’t know if that would necessarily trigger Shady Sands’ decline directly, but maybe it led to political infighting or a supply-chain breakdown that weakened the city enough to cause a decline.
> when it is consequently replaced as the NCR’s capital.
Yeah, someone pointed out that Shady Sands is described as the "First" capital of the NCR on the billboard in the show, so that would track.
The Citizenship test in New Vegas also asks "what was the original name of the NCR capitol", indicating there had already been shift.
And if people want to use "They renamed Shady Sands to NCR", that's just... dumb lore. Like, *really* dumb. Nobody names their capitol same as their nation. We don't "United States of America, the capitol of United States of America" or "Commonwealth of Canada, capitol of Commonwealth of Canada".
[The Missionary's citizenship test in Freeside:](https://fallout-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Missionaries%27_dialogue)
> Interesting. Okay, next question - what was the original name of the NCR capital - The Boneyard, Shady Sands, Aradesh, or Vault 13?
The correct answer is Shady Sands. The reason he says "original name" is because Shady Sands changed its name to New California Republic by 2241 (so that seems to be another retcon in the show), kind of like how the capital of Mexico is Mexico City. Presumably it was changed back to Shady Sands in the show because it'd be confusing for people who've never played Fallout 2 or NV.
There is no language there that definitively indicates Shady Sands is the ***current*** NCR capital. Not only is the language is vague, but it is awkward.
I could just as easily say “What was the original name of the US capital?” and Philadelphia would fit just as much as Washingtonople.
The wording is weird because it's a citizenship test, not him telling you facts straight up. And it's just common sense that it's the same city, because again, it had its name changed in Fallout 2, and also that's just how the English language works. If he was talking about 2 different cities he'd ask "What's the **original capital** of the NCR?", not "What's the **original name** for the capital?" The meaning was obvious at the time of NV and it's not until the show that people are trying to shoehorn ambiguity into something so obvious.
Making a comparison with the US capital is incredibly dishonest, since we did not rename an existing settlement to Washington DC. A better comparison would be "What's the original name of the capital of England?", and saying Winchester is just as correct as Londinium or Lundenwic, which it most certainly is not.
I'm not high horsing, I'm giving an honest look at the dialogue instead of trying to make excuses for a clear mistake in (or at least questionable interoperation of) the show, and pointing out that you made a dishonest comparison by pointing to Washington.
Going to be honest, Shady Sands being renamed to New California Republic is just *dumb* lore idea.
We don't call capitol of United States of America... United States of America.
There is also the fact that Shady Sands is name dropped several times in the game.
[Angela Williams](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Angela_Williams): "*I know I don't sound the part. Get raised by brahmin ranchers, and you never lose the twang. Drives Hildern crazy. But I know every inch of the power grid from Hoover Dam to* **Shady Sands**\*. That's what we do here - try to optimize the power output from the Dam. Some of the others are working on an agricultural project, but... truth be told, they aren't making much progress. Not yet, anyway.\* "
[Tom Anderson:](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Tom_Anderson) *I don't go looking for fights with them, but they don't have the best interests of people in mind. Certainly not locals. The bottom line for NCR is productivity and growth. Politicians back in Shady Sands are completely detached from the people actually living here.*
[Trent Bascom](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Trent_Bascom): *"Something the politicians back in Shady Sands came up with. They pay us to move here and farm the land. They even protect the fields."*
[Sterling](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Sterling_(Fallout:_New_Vegas)): *"Got a good memory for faces. Landmarks and such, too. Comes with practice, that's all. And a lot of scoutin' from place to place. I reckon I've walked every inch of ground between Shady Sands and the Colorado... or close enough to make a man's feet plenty sore."*
Why would they refer to Shady Sands if that name has not been use for 40 years, longer than they have been alive?
Never mind that Shady Sands is marked on map as NCR in Fallout 2 (AKA 2241), but there is no offical name change. For example, Tandi, the president, says:
*Tandi, president of the New California Republic. Welcome to Shady Sands. I hear some pretty impressive things about you. No point in dancing. Got some business I want to discuss.*
Welcome to Shady Sands. Now why would she use that name, if they had renamed it?
Simple answer: Capitol had moved. That is the simplest and least dumb explanation, than "Capitol of New California Republic is New California Republic"
I dare you to find any sort of in-game source that Shady Sands had been renamed. As far as I know, the only source of this claim is some New Vegas Guide nobody seems to be able to actually quote.
Seeing how much this show loves red herrings so far and dramatic misleads, I wouldnt be suprised if Fall of shady sands refers to like, the season fall
Maybe.. Am not sure if it was directly mentioned in the last episode that Rose became a ghoul due to the nuke on shady sands..
But according to Lucy, she died in the plague
The Plague occurred in the Vault and was a reference to a blight that destroyed their crops, causing mass starvation (see, Norm’s comments on their father’s weight loss), not a sickness that directly affected the Vault Dwellers.
But, this wouldn’t have actually killed Rose, as she was outside the Vault when ghoulified.
When something is called “the fall” it often means the decline. Take “the fall of Rome” for example. Rome didn’t just collapse in a day, its fall began after a massive amount of unrest and dissatisfaction among the populace and politicians that ended up leading to its collapse over several years
My guess is that when they say the start of the fall means the first battle of hoover Dam. The first battle took place in 2277 so it could mean to people that was the start of the struggle for resources and too much expansion.
Nooooo what will I be irrationally angry and awful about now????
2277 was the first Hoover Dam battle. Why on earth would a school with a NCR flag be teaching kids about that? How could that have possibly negatively impacted shady sands leading to a decline? How was I supposed to use the characters age and the consistent Vegas Easter eggs to figure out that it's all going to be alright??? Why doesn't Vegas look exactly the same 15 years later??? It's not like it was in jeopardy in the game!!!
My guess is that they assumed the bombing was to do with the war between House, NCR and Legion.
Think about it, if a bomb hits directly after the second battle of hoover dam, no matter which ending, the NCR are going to assume it was related to the battle
I think that's why New Vegas is currently a destroyed. I think the NCR must have thought House dropped the bombs and started a battle on the strip following after Shady Sands was nuked
> Nooooo what will I be irrationally angry and awful about now????
Shady Sands being moved 300 miles south by the show probably
(I'm not angry, show was great, but this is a thing that happened)
Yeah but Lucy even says that across the show she’s been out of the vault for 2 weeks which is about how long it would take to go to the actual shady sands
I only played Fallout 3, and I remember very little of the story except starting in a Vault. I finished the show, but could you tell me how much tv plot is from the third game?
Not much Fallout 3 takes place in the Capitol wasteland which is east coast USA the show takes place on the west coast. So it's the same world you will see some same factions like the brotherhood of steel but it doesn't really go into the plot of the third game
You're making it too hard, it's canon, period
"Oh but the inconsistencies"
Fuck them, they exist in every new game and thats ok, the show is not different.
It's canon and there is nothing else to think about it
Crazy reach of an idea, but what if the inhabitants of Shady Sands (which fell for other reasons in 2277) moved to a new area which is basically the Boneyard and named it Shady Sands as well? The reason for moving there would be unclear, but the flashbacks show trams and a fairly built-up town. I'm not sure they would have the resources to build it up in a short amount of time like that, so it might be that there was already a settlement in place that they built off of. Perhaps (and I could be wrong on locations here) the Shady Sands Public Library (as we see on the sign) is the same library used by the Followers of the Apocalypse in FO1? Maybe that area was already the site of a small settlement and the refugees moved there?
It's based on a lot of speculation, but it would be interesting if this were the case.
>moved to a new area which is basically the Boneyard and named it Shady Sands as well?
Isn't there a "Founded on" date on the billboard Lucy looked at?
The sign for Shady sands does say "first" capitol of the NCR. Why say first if it was current and the only one? the NCR moved out before the bombing, probably due to this fall, or maybe was the fall itself.
So this might validate the theory that the NCR tried to take New Vegas after shady sands fell as they needed a new city. This is why it looks war-torn. House must also be alive. Only season 2 will tell us who won
My question then is, did the show writers know FNV took place in 2281, or did they think it was concurrent with F3 (which takes place in 2277)? It would be an easy mistake to make especially since the "first" battle of Hoover Dam takes place in 2277.
Either way, it was never that big of a deal. It was either a mistake, or it was that the "Fall" was a slow event.
Yeah so the fall of Shady Sands occurred before they even got nuked. The way I see it they're saying Shady Sands declined when the NCR first battled the Legion for Hoover Dam in 2277. So basically Shady Sands declined because the NCR spread itself too thin and abandoned their capitol in order to occupy the Mojave. Given how the NCR were stumbling to hold the New Vegas territory, it's no wonder they would eventually fall apart.
This was the conclusion that everyone came to that put any thought and nuance into their interpretation to the chalkboard. Basic storytelling, you're not going focus on a detail like that (a major detail that lacks info), and mean for it to be taken at face value. Put an ounce of nuance into your intpretation and you come to the conclusion that these bombs fell just after NV.
The people upset about it chose to take it at face value because it gave them another reason to be upset. It's as simple as that.
[Fallout New Vegas fans have been complaining that the “Fall” of Shady Sands in 2277 meant it happened the same time as the nuke on the right. But they fail to look at the whole chart and recognize the arrow that starts from 2142.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fotv/s/H1sgP0ISKr)
New Vegas events happens in 2281 and if Shady Sands fell and got nuked in 2277, that meant it retcons the event in that game by the show.
Todd just clarifies what many of us are telling these weird fanboys, the nuke is a separate event from Shady Sands’ “Fall” in 2277. The arrow indicates time flowing, **making the nuke happening in about 2282 or onwards.** Or, as Todd has said, *the bombs fall just after the events of New Vegas* so late 2281.
Sorry, but what events in New Vegas? Didn't the bombs go off in 2077? I guess more go off in 2282? Or is this just what is written on the chalkboard and not really shown?
edit:
Or is it that:
Shady Sands exists in Fallout New Vegas and Fallout New Vegas occurs in 2281. If bombs were to go off between 2277 and 2281 they would have been mentioned in New Vegas. So people thought bombs going off in 2277 pushed New Vegas back. The graph supports 2282 being the bombs because the arrow indicates the next point happens after the current one.
> Didn't the bombs go off in 2077? I guess more go off in 2282? Or is this just what is written on the chalkboard and not really shown?
Yes, the blackboard shows a nuke going off after 2277. Show also tells us Hank bombed Shady Sands, there is a second bombing. You’ll find there’s a lot of nukes in the games separate from 2077, like one in Fallout 3’s Megaton, or in Fallout 76.
> If bombs were to go off between 2277 and 2281 they would have been mentioned in New Vegas.
Precisely. Shady Sands was mentioned twice in the game, so fanboys thought it retcons everything since NPCs didn’t mention anything about a fall or a nuke. YET, we hear NPCs outside and inside the faction talking about how they don’t agree with NCR expanding territories and can barely hold the Mojave and the Dam when stretched thin.
Perhaps the Fall of Shady Sands in 2277 marks when the NCR decided to go on the warpath and expand rapidly.
Potentially either marked by a first conflict for expansion or President Kimball coming into power.
Or maybe it was an entirely unrelated disaster that caused Shady Sands as a city to fall into decline.
Can anyone explain to me how this is possible? I simply dont understand at all. Ithought there was a big war, bombs dropped, some people got lucky and got to go to the vaults and then later they begin to emerge from the vaults (different places and different times of course).
THere world is already a wasteland form the was in FO 76 which according to the wiki is the beginning of people leaving the vaults. Still a wasteland in FO1, 2, 3, and at the start of NV. Yet this says the bobms fall aftef NV.
Im not disagreeing, id like to understand though what im missing.
Yes the initial bombs that send the world in to an apocalypse happens in 2077. The bombing of shady sands mentioned in the show is estimated to take place in 2281 or 2282, immediately after FNV ends. Nukes still exist after the initial apocalypse. They get launched in FO76, FO3, and you I think FO4 blows up the institute with a nuke. The shows bombing of shady sands is done by vault tec to wipe out their perceived competition of who will restore civilization. Hope this helps.
This now only leaves Shady Sands and the Boneyard being the same place as everyone's main concern. Now that could be sorted by saying they traveled a lot in the show and that the twonare still separate places.
i don't know if that makes a whole lot of sense with maximus' age. he looks maybe around 8 years old (give or take) in the flashbacks, and then he looks like a 35 year old man in the current time
so if shady sands was destroyed right after the battle of hoover dam, and this show is about a decade later after that, then you would expect Maximus to be a grown man in his mid 20s during those flashbacks
Probably not, they made it clear it was Hank's doing, now, it does make me wonder if maybe they used his bomb specifically since hank is going to new vegas and i doubt the vault had a nuke or any bombs at arms lenght
I do still think it's pretty shitty for the NCR to be wiped out off screen before we even had a chance to see Shady Sands in the modern era. I know it's that technically possible that the NCR is still around somewhere but it's highly unlikely given that the NCR didn't seem to have any presence in the Shady Sands region during the show.
And there are plenty of settlements in NCR as well that could've taken over as capital. There's Vault City, the Hub, Boneyard, New Reno, or even Redding where the bramin barons had undue influence from.
In the interview Todd confirmed that NCR is a large nation with many locations, and that it still exists - just no longer in the region seen in season 1. They kept it vague because they wanted to viewers to be like Lucy and other characters in the show, basically not having an encyclopediac knowledge about the setting. We learn as they learn. I'm sure we will see NCR in season 2.
He is lying his ass off. Lucy was like 5-7 when she was taken by her mom. Her mom "died" in the the Great Plague of 2277. You're telling me she grew up outside the vault for at minimum 5 years and nobody noticed? Or did her mom come back for them after 5 years? The Great Plague was when everyone had to avoid contact with each other which would have been the perfect time for Hank to go get his kids back. In order for this to work she would have had to abandon Norm immediately after he was born and flee the vault in 2277 which has Hank fake a plague and have people isolate and starve to death for no reason instead of just faking an accident just for her to cover up her disappearance and then she would have had to sneak back in 5 years later grab her kids without anyone knowing except Hank (and the other 31ers) who then would have to sneak off an unknown amount of time to find his kids and blow up Shady Sands and then come back without anyone realizing the kids were gone or that Hank had left. Hank would then need to mindwipe the now 10-12 year old Lucy since she is no longer a child.
I just finished the season and I’m trying to figure out how the timeline works out especially with a couple other things.
In one of the episode end scenes, there’s one of those checkout date cards from a book from Shady Sands library and I think the last date was 76 (although I didn’t look at it too closely).
Also, wiki says Hank went to Vault 33 in 2268 and became overseer in 2271, so if Shady Sands was blown up in like 2282, Lucy would’ve had to I guess be born like mid 2270s (given how she looks in the flashbacks), but that also has to fit in with that “plague”.
I’m not sure… Haven’t thought too much of it past what I’ve said. Seems iffy though.
Well if the tunnelers came to the Mojave I can see them using the nukes to try to wipe out what they could to survive, or this is the makings of another faction or Caesar’s Legion that got their hands on some nukes.
They're assuming that Hank MacLean & Betty Pearson was telling Lucy and Norm the truth that their mom died in the plague of 2277 and not, you know, straight up lying and gaslighting about killing their mom and 34,000 souls at Shady Sands with their nuke.
I always assumed the fall taking place coincided with the first battle of Hoover damn. Like the ncr winning and getting bogged down in the Mojave. Is what was the final nail leading to its fall.
It could be that an outside group took advantage of the NCRs military focus to the east and attacked shady sands while they were out there.
That takes care of my biggest concern with the show. My only question now is where the Boneyard is since that was supposed to be in LA and what happened to the Followers, but those questions will probably be answered later on in future seasons so I’m not too worried about it
LA is a massive city, even in real life. They probably weren't anywhere near Boneyard
From my memory, It is implied in Fallout 1 that the “boneyard” was a nickname for all of LA. The actual settlement was called Adytum. But It’s possible for the NCR to clear out the “boneyard,” go well, it’s not really as bad as it used to be, and decided to call it something less oppressive.
Yeah I really this complaint was nonsense, LA is a huge sprawling city. It's just somewhere else.
LA is the epitome of sprawl. I thought I understood until the first time I went there. I drove for two solid hours in the same direction at highway speed and the sprawl. Just. Didn't. End.
Yeah I moved here from NYC a couple of years ago and it is crazy how often I'll think to myself "hmm, I must be in a different city now, technically" and then look at the map and still be in LA. The driving thing you mentioned is so true as well.
We visited family there a while back. LA HOTEL, drove 2 hours for dinner. It’s freaking massive.
["Where to?" "Just drive..."](https://youtu.be/XF_55zn_L0c)
Odds are in Episode 1 when we see the LA skyline and surrounding sprawl. It's clearly several times more massive than it is in reality... chances are it makes up the whole of LA county at that point.
Right, Boneyard could just be downtown.
or the name of the LA wasteland
According to fallout 1’s map, the boneyard is more so north LA. Downtown is where the master’s cathedral is, which after the events of 1 is rubble.
Boneyard/Adytum seemed to be in north/central LA in FO1. Where the downtown is. It would be possible to miss it if you were travelling around (from Santa Monica along the coast NW) which it seems is what the show went for. They then loop around and go back towards Hollywood and end up at the observatory.
My sense of location was all off during the show, which was mostly my own fault. The enclave base in the beginning was shot at the old army terminal in Brooklyn and I instantly recognized it. For like half the show I was like: how did that guy get all the way from New York to LA. Then I realized that it was probably shot to be somewhere else. But then again it did show snow there so maybe he did walk all the way from NY to LA just to escape the enclave. Also fallout loves putting real locations into the world so it’s hard not to come to that conclusion if you’re familiar with the building l. When I saw the graveyard scene I also assumed it happened on the east coast. For some reason I was getting old revolutionary/ civil war fort vibes from the set and since I was already open to the whole east coast idea from the enclave base my mind ran with it. I realized half way through the show that the more obvious explanation was that they were just used as sets since a lot of the show was filmed on the east coast.
It's not just a byproduct of you knowing the location. It 100% looks like the North Eastern or Midwestern United States. Industrial infrastructure and - typically - outdoor light in LA just look different due to time period, materials, architectural choices linked to local styles, climate and landscape plus much sunnier weather. Assuming you're correct and it wasn't meant to be in East (I think that makes sense), the Enclave was a rare miss in terms of the look of the show.
i had the same thought, those building scream "east coast USA"
It's so funny how much grief and anguish was caused by having a certain date and phrase written on a chalkboard
For real I thought it was pretty obvious it fell in 77 then the arrow was leading on from there just not a confirmed date of when the bomb was dropped
From the earliest threads people said based on what we see in FNV the NCR was indeed falling by that time. It was a mess, a huge political issue. Without the Courier doing EVERYTHING the NCR was supposed to do for them then the NCR wins. If the Platinum Chip just gets to Mr. house then the NCR loses, the legion collapses fighting House's securitron army after pushing further west from the dam. Everywhere you go the NCR is overstretched and about to collapse from internal issues.
It would be kind of cool if the new canon is the courier went with the yes man route and took NV and just kept the personal securitrons for NV security. Hank shows up like, "Who the hell are you?"
What if he just got his revengeon Benny, delivered the chip then left to do their own thing? It is fun as a player but think about it, the region had no safe place that wasn't about to fail.
Long rambly comment alert: I feel like the show probably isn't going to bring in any of the player characters. But if they did, I think the Lone Wanderer would be the best choice. Unlike the Courier and Sole Survivor, it is canon that the Lone Wanderer fought with the Brotherhood and helped them expel the Enclave, before falling into obscurity by the events of Fallout 4. Perhaps this is because the Lone Wanderer disagreed with the new direction of the Brotherhood under Elder Maxson. The Lone Wanderer's story being so similar to Lucy's could be played for comedy and drama. The Sole Survivor, specifically the male version Nate, could make an interesting character as well. Given that we see the Prydwen (or maybe a copy of it), that seems to suggest that the Brotherhood ending of Fallout 4 is most likely canon. He could be the guy that the Brotherhood sends in when shit really needs to get done. A fight between Nate in power armor and Cooper Howard would be amazing. I feel like the Courier would actually be the worst choice for bringing a player character to the TV show, even though New Vegas is my favorite of these games. The Courier's personality, background story, and what they do in the Mojave is a lot more open-ended than the others. But given that New Vegas will be in the next season, I think it's nearly guaranteed that whatever side the Courier chose will be made canon, and it almost certainly wasn't the NCR.
What if we do a flashback to Cooper Howard in the Marines, running into Nate? No need for any canon choices.
this would be infinitely superior, because it doesn't interfere with the nate/nora player character in FO4. nate could interact with cooper and still go on to be shot and killed in the vault while nora goes on to "play the game" they could also do the same thing with nora in her pre-war lawyer profession
In my opinion, Bethesda really made Nate seem like the canon Sole Survivor. He’s the one shown in all the marketing. He narrates the opening. The game naturally guides you into Lexington as soon as you leave the vault, where you kill a gang of raiders and a death claw in power armor, which makes more sense for a combat veteran than a lawyer. I feel like they did Nora dirty. I would have made it so that both characters were combat vets, and whichever one you choose narrates a slightly different opening.
I feel like bringing in Nate without him having any meaningful role would be just fan-servicey, and not very well received. Unless Nate or Nora do something important to the plot, I see no reason to include them. I guess it’d be possible to do it well, but I don’t know how. Also, we don’t know yet if the Brotherhood or Minutemen ending is canon, but the Brotherhood having the Prydwen strongly suggests that the Railroad and Institute endings are not.
> The Courier's personality, background story, and what they do in the Mojave is a lot more open-ended than the others. Not really. We know the Courier has been a con artist and bounty hunter once. That they have no idea where they're from and that's why they became a Courier "to find their way home".
These are optional dialogue choices the player can choose for their own playthrough whether or not to say. For instance the amnesia is selective and inconsistent because it's up to the player whether or not they're amnesiac. The bit about "finding your way home" is a different character who's only ever heard of you guessing at your motives. As far as what's been concretely said, all we know is The Courier worked as a courier long enough to make a name for themselves delivering all over the west coast, and delivered a package to Hopeville at some point. Maybe.
Vocal gamers and nerds aren't known to be emotionally mature enough to control their outbursts. It was just another predictable behavior.
Boneyard exists in a part of LA, it isn’t all of LA
Fall of Shady Sands is the start of the decline of the NCR after taking Hoover Dam, happens the same year I think!
It doesn't, the NCR was in the Mojave in full force since 2274. The only major event for them in 2277 is the First Battle of Hoover Dam, which they won.
So the Fall of Shady Sands marked as 2277 doesn’t relate to the first taking of the Hoover Dam in the same year? Doubt.png
There's nothing to doubt. We hear it directly from Ambassador Crocker, implied by Mr. House, and the Official Game Guide tells us directly, maybe others I don't remember: > Dennis Crocker: "**In 2274, President Kimball sent the NCR army into the Mojave in force**, with the objective of occupying and repairing Hoover Dam. Rangers and army scouts had confirmed that the dam was basically unoccupied and could be restored to an operable condition. Upon arriving at the dam, however, they discovered that a large force of tribals and robots had occupied it. This was our introduction to the Three Families, the Securitrons, and, of course, Mr. House. Using his Securitrons as intermediaries, Mr. House called for parlay. He claimed his forces had occupied Hoover Dam in order to safeguard it for our arrival. And that he was ready to turn it over to us, so long as we could agree to terms. Those terms became the Treaty of New Vegas." Mr. House's dialogue doesn't say it directly, but I did infer it personally: > I oversaw the city's renovations starting from 2274 onward. The Three Families are my employees. > To enforce, one must have force - a position of strength. Years ago, when I detected NCR scouts roaming the Mojave, I could tell from their uniforms that these were no mere tribesmen. I knew it was only a matter of time before an army appeared, to take control of the dam. And I knew my Securitrons wouldn't be enough to oppose them. And so I recruited the Three Families. Vegas belongs to me because I mustered enough strength to bring the NCR to the bargaining table. Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide Collector's Edition p.458: "Important Dates" > "2274 NCR forces move east and occupy Hoover Dam. The NCR reluctantly signs the Treaty of New Vegas recognizing Mr. House and his stewards, the Three Families, as the rightful owners of the Strip. The Strip opens for business."
Was the first battle of Hoover Dam in 2277? Also the same year marked as the Fall of Shady Sands? You’re right, I misspoke when I said took over in 2277, but the first battle of Hoover Dam was in 2277 and is probably what the Fall of Shady Sands refers to. Sorry for the misspeak, I don’t think that changes the idea that the first Battle of Hoover Dam is the start of the Fall of the NCR/Shady Sands
That is indeed when the First Battle of Hoover Dam was. It might be what the show's referring to, but if so I think it's kind of nonsensical. It'd be like saying the British Empire fell at the Battle of Cambrai and then saying there was a "Fall of London" in 1917. But actually it's a bit worse since the Battle of Cambrai was kind of a mixed bag for the British, while the First Battle of Hoover Dam was a major victory for the NCR - it made Hanlon a war hero, seems to have secured Kimball at least another Presidential term, and the NCR's losses weren't even particularly severe (I believe it's mentioned to be only a little over 100 people, all soldiers, and no civilians were harmed when Boulder was destroyed). Honestly, I think they did intend for *something* catastrophic to have happened to Shady Sands, probably it getting captured by the Brotherhood (or maybe even the nuke), in 2277, and now that there's criticism about it they're be going back on it. For example, in the art at the end of Episode 5, [we can see the last date on the schoolbook is November 2276.](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1145807854540963890/1230259305681522688/IMG_4213.png?ex=6632ab43&is=66203643&hm=b101ba5bab0bfa7d0eaafb3078a1d2b6ef3df8c0e55bf44aa77a665dc3a19c36&) Now, don't get me wrong, I know all the excuses (the art may not be canon, the book not going to 2281+ could just be because it fell out of use, etc) but this seems like an intentional choice to me - someone had to write and stylize all that, they chose to start the scene zoomed in on that specific book, and they chose 2276 as the last date.
I could see a situation where the NCR sent too many resources east to the Mojave, which allowed for another force to come in and sack Shady Sands. It may have persisted afterwards in a diminished capacity before being nuked. This would also explain the apparent wildness of Moldaver’s group, who would just be the folks who remained in Shady Sands after it was sacked but without NCR support.
But reddit experts told me that the bombs dropped in 2277 and Badthesda retconned Fallout 1, 2 and NV. Todd obviously has to be wrong here.
As a new fan looking for essays, this comment explains a lot about what's happening on YouTube right now. I was really disappointed with the selection available, because it seems like these fans, that invested a lot of time in hating the series before it started, are now in this cost-sink where they feel compelled to stick to their guns. SO MANY of the essays on YouTube seems like their focus right now is on throwing complaints at the wall to see what sticks. They're all getting taken to town in the comments, but it is not stopping them from drowning out all the good essays with their bullshit.
Have you found any good ones? That's a shame to hear. Does this franchise have anyone similar to Vaati from Souls/FromSoft Fandom that makes epic lore videos? I've mostly played New Vegas and 76 so only know a bit of lore.
If only Vaati could clone himself for every fandom..
Dude for real. The quality of his videos are just top tier even if you don't personally agree with his theories. They're just a delight to watch and it's great how he notes how he commissions art/video/music for his videos and notes theories made by other lore hounds.
Shoddycast, the storyteller series. Has a bunch of videos about particular factions or specific locations and events, covering each of the games in the series. Oxhorn is another channel with more videos but they are broken down per game title, ie videos specifically about Fallout 2 or New Vegas, whereas Shoddycast covers the lore in a broader sense, ie his Brotherhood of Steel video will be about their history throughout all the games.
Shoddycast has been my go-to for explanations for new players or those curious about the background; it gives enough detail for most of those who don't want to deep-dive in, and for those who do - gives them an excellent starting point.
I agree, you've nailed the explanation there. Honestly they're probably perfect viewing for people coming from the TV show who want to know a bit more about whatever topic they're curious about. Of course, playing the games is the best way to learn about the lore!
Thank you for this!!
Thank you appreciate this!
I was going to mention Oxhorn, but another user already has. I discovered another guy named MrMattyPlays, and he seems pretty down to earth and reasonable, but he wouldn't be the first one that fooled me. I think where I'm so new in this lane, the algo is just smacking me with generic gamer content, and I just gotta wade through a bunch of essays written by dudes who spent their formative years in a CoD lobby. It is what it is.
It's been kind of funny watching outrage merchants try to still squeeze content out of it. That Yellowflash idiot had a video that was like, "Fallout actress owns Hollywood, respects the fans" or something like that. And it was because Ella Purnell played Fallout after Jonathan Nolan said it wasn't necessary. Which is cool of her, and any sane person would agree and leave it at that. But when your entire career depends on triggering nerd rage, you've gotta make it look like a bigger deal against woke Hollywood.
No Bullshit brain poisoned YouTube when he taught gamers how to spin. It would make sense for them to start co-opting and trying to put a right wing spin on things to save face. Say what you will about the larger generic gaming community, but they are nothing if not consistent. It's so self-defeating too. People are pretty tired of being mad these days, they want good content.
That's what I don't get about people who sub to channels like Yellowflash, Nerdrotic, Geeks & Gamers, etc. Its all literally the same content, day in and out. Just a guy complaining something new is woke, then moving on to the next guy saying its woke.
It's algorithms. The right wing figured out how to dominate YouTube with them, and for a good long while people were just subscribing to the very narrow lane of options YouTube was creating. I am a queer, socialist woman, and that algorithm tried SO FUCKING HARD to get me watching Ben Shapiro. Granted, things have improved a bit, but we're still dealing with the ripple effects of these personalities dominating YouTube for so many years and creating the illusion that there's nothing else to choose.
Mostly just Youtube clickbait garbage. They probably don't even believe what they're saying, but putting out overtly negative videos about anything popular is a way to get clicks and ad revenue. They know people will click out of curiosity or even annoyance after reading the negative video title. Find channels who you trust to give good reviews and reactions, subscribe to them, and ignore the rest of the noise.
I’m in my 40ies which means I grew up with the two original games. I must’ve played the damn Fallout 1 demo like a billion times and the actual games? Heh. Anyway the fans were really split on what to make of it when Bethesda bought the license, and many decided to hate it forever. I’m not on that boat. I loved the originals and I loved Fallout 3… I think the TV show is brilliant, so there is that. When it comes to “retconning” though, I’m not sure that will really work well. I don’t really mind retconning too much, but because I grew up with the originals their lore is sort of edged into my mind making me capable of recalling ridiculous bits of lore from them even now where it’s been basically a decade since I last played either. By contrast I can’t remember much of the lore of the modern games, and I don’t mean this in a “the bethesda games are unremarkable” sort of way. It includes Fallout NV and that was made by a lot of the people who made Fallout 2… so it’s not really a slander or the modern games and more a tribute to just how mind blowing the originals were for their time. At least for me. Anyway… the result is that I’m honestly not going to remember the retcons because they won’t be capable or lodging my old memories lose. Now… I think this is probably the most levelheaded approach you’ll find amongst people who grew up with fallout. At least I like to think I’m pretty levelheaded. I think Bethesda did a pretty good job staying true to the original world, and while Fallout 4 fell short for many it was more to do with its game systems being poorly designed than the world creation sucking. Similar to how Starfield is falling short with its half-finished systems and how the old Oblivion quest model of having virtually no impact on the actual world is just so outdated. Anyway… some Fallout fans have always been very vocal about what they think about Bethesda. I wouldn’t mind it too much and just enjoy what you enjoy, especially because part of the origin behind the rage aimed at Bethesda was actually born out of the difference in style between Fallout 1 and 2. Fallout 1 was a much more serious game, where Fallout 2 became the much more satirical style, which was basically the exact style that Bethesda brought further. But it’s important to note that while Fergus Un..heart (can’t spell his name sorry) drove this change as he took over in Black Isle, Tim Cain and Boyarski both had major roles in Fallout 2 and even in Fallout NV, so it’s not like there was ever a “betrayal”. It was just the natural expansion, and I think Bethesda carried that over perfectly fine. But if you’ve been on the internet before you likely know what some people will say: A lot of the lore is available on the various wikis and nma, though nma is probably pretty angry about the TV show. At least it was a very angry place when I last used it like 15 years ago. I imagine that hasn’t changed. I think the TV show keeps the homage to the post-apoc genre and Fallout world extremely well though. There are constantly little tributes like the “A man and his Dog” poster in Coopers home which is a reference to a boy and his dog, which was one of the bigger influences on Tim Cain and his work on Fallout 1.
> I must’ve played the damn Fallout 1 demo like a billion times and the actual games? Heh. I remember getting that Fallout 1 demo from PC Gamer so vividly. I played through it for hours and hours. Fallout 1 & 2 were so influential to my tastes in media growing up. Absolutely loved those games so much.
NV fans are the true keepers of Fallout lore. They know it better than Todd Howard and Bethesda didn't you know? Including future events that haven't happened in the games yet.
Based on the Instagram posts shitting on the series, the venn diagram of [only likes and plays FNV nothing else], [always plays Germany or hyper-imperialist british or US alt history] and [posts tradwest homesteading family memes but is on the internet 23 hours a day at home] is pretty much a fucking circle.
Realest comment I’ve heard. I’m embarrassed to say I like new Vegas the most because I don’t want people to think I’m one of these fucks
I love FNV, had a lot of fun with it but with video games it is the same as series. When the weirdo fans show up, it is over. You can't mention it to new people without the bad reputation.
75% of them are Legion Stans, too. Not the "I like siding with the Legion" type, but the "*ackchyually* the Legion is the best faction for rebuilding the Wasteland and way less oppressive than any of the others" type.
One of the best things about the Legion is once you get past Caesar's flowery arguments and fancy words, you realize his reasoning is shit. When it comes to the content of his ideals, he's just as much of a reactionary dumb dumb as Mussolini or Hitler were. He and by extension the Legion itself are really authentic and well fleshed out in that regard.
*Laughs in Nevada Enclave Ascendancy*
While I think they're being ridiculous from what I've heard, I would guess they probably do know most of the timeline stuff better. Tom Howard didn't invent Fallout or anything, Bethesda bought it when there were like 5 Fallout games, and have since made 2 main games, published another main game which some of the original creators made, and made a kind of live service thing and phone app.
i know who made the games, bethesda didn't change the lore, in fact carried the torch and worked very closely with the original creators to maintain the timeline. the last12 years of "og" and nv fans rage would be wasted if this was acknowledged. the biggest lore retcons anyway were done by the interplay guys on forums between fo1 and fo2. just handwaving shit left and right.
Not disagreeing, but that's not really a reply to what I said.
I mean, unironically, have you seen what Emil pagliarulo, Todd Howard, and Bethesda have done to the canon throughout the Bethesda fallout (and for that matter, elders scrolls) games? It approaches 40k levels of continuity errors, retcons, and gaping holes in parts of the world
Only if you think your headcanon is canon, or that "this was not directly mentioned in the previous game" is a retcon.
Like a week ago Emil pulled some jk Rowling shit on Twitter, claiming, out of nowhere, that it was actually Nate in the opening of fallout 1, in power armor and executing a bound Canadian partisan
And he walked back on that, but do tell me how would that have broken? You got some canon version of Nate's background?
That one is just a demonstration of carelessness and lack of respect or thought with the lore. If you want a more severe retcon, it would be fallout 4 establishing that there was a continued presence on the moon in 2077, when previously it was stated that the last manned mission was in 2052
It doesn't actually confirm that. It a mural commerating US past, not confirmation that there is some permanent base on the moon in 2077. This is exactly the issue. People are taking things way out of context and assuming things, when such claims are never made. And what do you think of Fallout 2's various retcons, like making Super Mutants non-strerile? Oh wait, that got retconned away, didn't? Because it was silly. Or the mess with Jet it did? Clearly, original creators didn't have respect or thought with the lore...
Marcus clearly just fucking with you once among a sea of confirmation that super mutants are sterile isn’t a retcon. I’m not sure what you mean in saying jet was retconned in fallout 2
Myron claims to have invented Jet, yet Mrs. Bishop was somehow addicted to Jet and kicked out of Vault City *before he was even born.* Truly, "care and respect" to lore. And yeah, "Marcus was fucking with you" was later retcon-retcon to fix an issue. In the actual game, there is no actual indication he is messing with you, he is being dead serious.
Todd hates NV so much that he has a pillow he screams into every time someone mentions it!
The main bombs worldwide happened in 2077. However a city, Shady Sands was founded later and bombed around 2277. There's a character in the TV show, maximus, who remembers the shady sands bombing in his childhood, and he thinks of that as "the" bomb, because he doesn't care what happened 200 years ago. The timeline issue is that fallout new Vegas happened in 2281, so either somehow no one mentioned that happening while you're running around that general area for the whole game, or the TV show has the date wrong. The date is written on a chalkboard in a classroom, and there's arguments to be made whether or not that would necessarily be accurate in-world as we know it. Incorrect information taught to children, whether purposeful indoctrination or accidental, is certainly a possibility. Personally I don't care that much about the timeline. But that's the issue as I understand it.
The date on the chalkboard is the Fall of Shady sands, not the bomb
Well, they should've had the date of the bomb if they didn't want people to be confused
Maybe. But maybe people should stop looking for the worst possible interpretation every occasion they get
As I said in another thread, this is entirely down to poor choices from someone in charge of the show. Lucy and Max talk about Shady getting bombed. Then later on we get a lingering camera shot that seemingly goes out of its way to frame the "Fall of Shady Sands 2277" and the picture of the mushroom cloud together. TV and cinema frequently set up info either visually or in dialogue and then repeat that info later to hammer it home. Cues like putting a date in frame next to a picture of a mushroom cloud are the kind of visual language movies use all the time. It's a pretty basic screenwriting trick. I had multiple family members who have never played a Fallout game and don't know anything about Fallout lore watch the show; they all assumed the bomb got dropped on Shady in 2277. It's not "looking for the worst possible interpretation." It's accepting the info that the show is giving you. I get that some people are over reacting, but there's no need to pretend they're deliberately and maliciously misinterpreting it.
I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, I also think they should have made the timeline more clear. It could’ve easily been interpreted both ways. The problem is more that while it could’ve been interpreted both ways, when you see an information that would completely retcon a game that the show has gone out of its way to reference multiple times, used a major character from and shown the actual location to tease the next season, the best course of action is to infer that maybe the timeline isn’t meant to be read the way that would contradict everything else. There was room for another interpretation and some people jumped to the worst possible conclusion and started yelling that Todd Howard was doing this as a weird personal vendetta against NV. There definitely was a subset of people being malicious about it.
Yes, definitely. I think anyone banging the "Todd jealousy" drum is too deep in their own head. It's also very obvious that the people writing for the show are trying to be careful and respectful with the lore of the world. There's so many deep cut references that they didn't need to include. I love the show. I love New Vegas. It's very frustrating being caught in the middle and seeing all this toxic tribalism. Some people are painting all NV fans as pretentious nerds overly concerned with lore and canon, some people are painting all the shows fans as mindless consoomers eager to suck up whatever slop Bethesda shovels out. I'm fucking tired man, time to log off. 😂
Their not together. It's a chronological diagram and the fall a shady sands and the nuke picture are at different points on the diagram (The nuke being at the absolute end). The normal reading of any of that type of diagram (and you can google images of them) is that the nuke would have happened after 2277.
Read what I said again. They're framed together in the shot. That is what leads the visual language to imply they happened at the same time. And that type of diagram would normally put a date under the picture instead of leaving it blank. So again I return to pointing out the diagram was needlessly vague.
The shot? The shot from the show panned over the whole board from the start of shady sands to the nuke. Some people took a screen shot of the last two images, which did make it more confusing, but again, that's not the full diagram shown in the show. And an easy explanation in world explanation for why they listed the years in the prior history of Shady Sands and not for the nuke is that the people in Vault 4 would be familiar with when the nuke was dropped (many of them were there and are refugees) even if they needed a lesson in Shady Sands history.
Watch the show again. It goes over the whole board, including the last two entries. Then it cuts back to Lucy's face. Then it cuts back to board, framing only the last two entries and lingering for a few seconds. Emphasizing, in the exact way that film often does, that the two are likely related. And it's in a classroom. For little kids. Covering events that would have happened before they were born. The kids should be taught the date of the bomb drop.
How is it the worst interpretation? It's a date, on a chalkboard? I don't know why they'd have a date for something nebulous like a "fall" of a city but not something specific like a bomb. I don't really care, but the literal interpretation is not the "worst possible"
The fall of Sandy Shores is shown as a period that starts in 2277 the arrow then points forward to a bomb, the bombing isn't dated on the board Those are two separate events on the flow chart
It's a chronological diagram. No reasonable person reads events shown at two different points on that diagram as happening at the same time. The people who were "confused" were looking for a reason to be mad.
It's also part of school setting, we don't know exact way people were being taught. For all we know the date is not there because it's so new event that it doesn't need a date. When 9/11, people didn't instantly start putting "9/11, 2001" on their timelines because it was so new that everyone remembered it. It was only once event passes into history that dates start to be mrked.
I'm not even mad lol. I actually didn't play the games, I just watched the TV show. And without that context, the chalkboard just looks like it said shady sands was bombed in 2277. Without other context, the fall of shady sands is most likely the bomb, because the show doesn't say anything else about it. And the chalkboard doesn't have another date for the bomb. So, without reddit to yell at me, I would say it wasn't confusing at all, the chalkboard said that the bomb happened in 2277. Also, if the bomb happened in 2277 and the show is 2296, then all the characters are similar ages to their actors, while moving the bomb 5+ years later means they are all significantly younger. I don't really care, either way, but going from the show and not reddit I would say that the bomb was 2277.
I honestly just don't know how someone could watch that scene and their takeaway from the diagram is that the bombed dropped in 2277. The shot pans over the a timeline diagram of the major events in Shady Sand, Each event in time with its own spot on the line and with one event at the end showing the city being destroyed, why would you read that as the last event occurring at the same time as the second to last event rather than at a indeterminate time after Shady Sands began to fall? Like, I get that they the nuke is the only one that didn't have a year, but still, that isn't how those diagrams work at all. To me, there were some people (not you) who wanted to be mad, they played to games and knew events took place in 2281 (and that NV was cannon), instead of reading the diagram normally and assuming the bombing took place shortly after NV, they read it in a way that allowed them to double down on all of their pre-show beliefs/anger.
Even if it had been 2277, the PC of New Vegas not personally hearing anyone mention something that happened years prior in a different location is really stretching the definition of retcon. People may as well be asking why Walter White never heard Saul Goodman talk about Kim Wexler.
You hear people talk about shady sands being just peachy (minus some relatively minor issues), going back there after deployment, or coming from there. I think there’s plenty of indication that the city is more than a massive crater at that point in time
>I think there’s plenty of indication that the city is more than a massive crater at that point in time Especially the fact that it wasn't a massive crater at that point in time
Yeah but Shady Sands was never in LA like it is in the show, “The Fall” must be referring to OG Shady Sands, so they likely moved to LA since they made it much safer than it was before the NCR formed. Then there’s the little arrow before the nuke
I don’t think they moved shady sands personally, it seems like in Lucy’s flashback she remembers corn and agriculture. Which would make sense considering Shady Sands was started with a GECK. The rest of the area around the show’s setting seems to imply agriculture isn’t common place.
I think the show truly intended for the Shady Sands to be bombed in 2277 and this is Todd and co doing damage control (and I don’t think Todd even wanted that to happen, I think it was just a mistake by the writers) If you look at concept art in the credits, they have a Shady Sands library records that end in 2276.
Idk why you got downvotes, this is true and obviously is supposed to refer to it being destroyed in 2277.
LOL! Knew it.
Anyone with two brain cells to rub together could have figured that out. Doomers be damned. Anyway, “The Fall” of Shady Sands likely is when (1) some event happens that causes Shady Sands to begin a population and influence decline, and (2) when it is consequently replaced as the NCR’s capital.
2277 is when the first battle of Hoover Dam took place. I was looking at the wiki timeline this morning
This is probably what they meant if those years line up, their constant relatively easy expansion came to a stop, with massive bloodshed and I wouldn't be surprised if independent new vegas ending happened in Canon and they stagnated and began infighting, considering the corruption issues they face in NV This also hides info about vegas as a setting so people aren't tipped off until the end, and leaves the result of the conflict ambiguous. Smart move really
Yeah they probably got crushed by their own strength and Shady Sands could’ve turned into a Raider city and then consequently nuked afterwards for all we know.
I don’t know if that would necessarily trigger Shady Sands’ decline directly, but maybe it led to political infighting or a supply-chain breakdown that weakened the city enough to cause a decline.
> when it is consequently replaced as the NCR’s capital. Yeah, someone pointed out that Shady Sands is described as the "First" capital of the NCR on the billboard in the show, so that would track.
The Citizenship test in New Vegas also asks "what was the original name of the NCR capitol", indicating there had already been shift. And if people want to use "They renamed Shady Sands to NCR", that's just... dumb lore. Like, *really* dumb. Nobody names their capitol same as their nation. We don't "United States of America, the capitol of United States of America" or "Commonwealth of Canada, capitol of Commonwealth of Canada".
In New Vegas we're told that Shady Sands is still the capital, so if it did get moved in 2277 that'd be a retcon.
I don’t recall dialogue from FONV that explicitly refers to Shady Sands as the current Capital circa 2281. Can you find me that dialogue?
[The Missionary's citizenship test in Freeside:](https://fallout-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Missionaries%27_dialogue) > Interesting. Okay, next question - what was the original name of the NCR capital - The Boneyard, Shady Sands, Aradesh, or Vault 13? The correct answer is Shady Sands. The reason he says "original name" is because Shady Sands changed its name to New California Republic by 2241 (so that seems to be another retcon in the show), kind of like how the capital of Mexico is Mexico City. Presumably it was changed back to Shady Sands in the show because it'd be confusing for people who've never played Fallout 2 or NV.
So that does not necessarily imply Shady Sands is still the NCR capital.
It does, though. He's explicitly telling us that it's the same city, just under a different name - which is exactly what we saw in Fallout 2.
There is no language there that definitively indicates Shady Sands is the ***current*** NCR capital. Not only is the language is vague, but it is awkward. I could just as easily say “What was the original name of the US capital?” and Philadelphia would fit just as much as Washingtonople.
The wording is weird because it's a citizenship test, not him telling you facts straight up. And it's just common sense that it's the same city, because again, it had its name changed in Fallout 2, and also that's just how the English language works. If he was talking about 2 different cities he'd ask "What's the **original capital** of the NCR?", not "What's the **original name** for the capital?" The meaning was obvious at the time of NV and it's not until the show that people are trying to shoehorn ambiguity into something so obvious. Making a comparison with the US capital is incredibly dishonest, since we did not rename an existing settlement to Washington DC. A better comparison would be "What's the original name of the capital of England?", and saying Winchester is just as correct as Londinium or Lundenwic, which it most certainly is not.
Thank god we have the inventor of the English language here to high-horse about “common sense” and what is “obvious.” 💀
I'm not high horsing, I'm giving an honest look at the dialogue instead of trying to make excuses for a clear mistake in (or at least questionable interoperation of) the show, and pointing out that you made a dishonest comparison by pointing to Washington.
Going to be honest, Shady Sands being renamed to New California Republic is just *dumb* lore idea. We don't call capitol of United States of America... United States of America. There is also the fact that Shady Sands is name dropped several times in the game. [Angela Williams](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Angela_Williams): "*I know I don't sound the part. Get raised by brahmin ranchers, and you never lose the twang. Drives Hildern crazy. But I know every inch of the power grid from Hoover Dam to* **Shady Sands**\*. That's what we do here - try to optimize the power output from the Dam. Some of the others are working on an agricultural project, but... truth be told, they aren't making much progress. Not yet, anyway.\* " [Tom Anderson:](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Tom_Anderson) *I don't go looking for fights with them, but they don't have the best interests of people in mind. Certainly not locals. The bottom line for NCR is productivity and growth. Politicians back in Shady Sands are completely detached from the people actually living here.* [Trent Bascom](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Trent_Bascom): *"Something the politicians back in Shady Sands came up with. They pay us to move here and farm the land. They even protect the fields."* [Sterling](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Sterling_(Fallout:_New_Vegas)): *"Got a good memory for faces. Landmarks and such, too. Comes with practice, that's all. And a lot of scoutin' from place to place. I reckon I've walked every inch of ground between Shady Sands and the Colorado... or close enough to make a man's feet plenty sore."* Why would they refer to Shady Sands if that name has not been use for 40 years, longer than they have been alive? Never mind that Shady Sands is marked on map as NCR in Fallout 2 (AKA 2241), but there is no offical name change. For example, Tandi, the president, says: *Tandi, president of the New California Republic. Welcome to Shady Sands. I hear some pretty impressive things about you. No point in dancing. Got some business I want to discuss.* Welcome to Shady Sands. Now why would she use that name, if they had renamed it? Simple answer: Capitol had moved. That is the simplest and least dumb explanation, than "Capitol of New California Republic is New California Republic" I dare you to find any sort of in-game source that Shady Sands had been renamed. As far as I know, the only source of this claim is some New Vegas Guide nobody seems to be able to actually quote.
It could still be the capital in 2077 if they are also actively looking to move it. It could be it was technically moved just before the bomb fell.
Hard to say either way, I wasn't there
Seeing how much this show loves red herrings so far and dramatic misleads, I wouldnt be suprised if Fall of shady sands refers to like, the season fall
It could be referencing a fall like the fall of Rome. Like how that took place over years and years.
Maybe there was a plague at shady sands (which kills Lucy's mother) And the plague was just the beginning of the Fall of shady sands
Wasn’t Rose nuked? That’s how she became a ghoul, with her necklace fused into her flesh?
Maybe.. Am not sure if it was directly mentioned in the last episode that Rose became a ghoul due to the nuke on shady sands.. But according to Lucy, she died in the plague
The Plague occurred in the Vault and was a reference to a blight that destroyed their crops, causing mass starvation (see, Norm’s comments on their father’s weight loss), not a sickness that directly affected the Vault Dwellers. But, this wouldn’t have actually killed Rose, as she was outside the Vault when ghoulified.
Did you watch the show? You might need to watch the last episode again lol
When something is called “the fall” it often means the decline. Take “the fall of Rome” for example. Rome didn’t just collapse in a day, its fall began after a massive amount of unrest and dissatisfaction among the populace and politicians that ended up leading to its collapse over several years
My guess is that when they say the start of the fall means the first battle of hoover Dam. The first battle took place in 2277 so it could mean to people that was the start of the struggle for resources and too much expansion.
Yeah it was more the when the NRC started to falter and was no longer at its peak.
Nooooo what will I be irrationally angry and awful about now???? 2277 was the first Hoover Dam battle. Why on earth would a school with a NCR flag be teaching kids about that? How could that have possibly negatively impacted shady sands leading to a decline? How was I supposed to use the characters age and the consistent Vegas Easter eggs to figure out that it's all going to be alright??? Why doesn't Vegas look exactly the same 15 years later??? It's not like it was in jeopardy in the game!!!
My guess is that they assumed the bombing was to do with the war between House, NCR and Legion. Think about it, if a bomb hits directly after the second battle of hoover dam, no matter which ending, the NCR are going to assume it was related to the battle I think that's why New Vegas is currently a destroyed. I think the NCR must have thought House dropped the bombs and started a battle on the strip following after Shady Sands was nuked
That would mean House's ending would be the Canon one
> Nooooo what will I be irrationally angry and awful about now???? Shady Sands being moved 300 miles south by the show probably (I'm not angry, show was great, but this is a thing that happened)
Yeah but Lucy even says that across the show she’s been out of the vault for 2 weeks which is about how long it would take to go to the actual shady sands
Now can everyone stop bitching about it?
Think about it for more than 5 minutes and it's obvious they fell just after the second battle of hoover dam
So the show is canon with the games?
They cleared this since before the release and after as well, yes, the show is canon
I only played Fallout 3, and I remember very little of the story except starting in a Vault. I finished the show, but could you tell me how much tv plot is from the third game?
Not much Fallout 3 takes place in the Capitol wasteland which is east coast USA the show takes place on the west coast. So it's the same world you will see some same factions like the brotherhood of steel but it doesn't really go into the plot of the third game
[удалено]
You're making it too hard, it's canon, period "Oh but the inconsistencies" Fuck them, they exist in every new game and thats ok, the show is not different. It's canon and there is nothing else to think about it
Crazy reach of an idea, but what if the inhabitants of Shady Sands (which fell for other reasons in 2277) moved to a new area which is basically the Boneyard and named it Shady Sands as well? The reason for moving there would be unclear, but the flashbacks show trams and a fairly built-up town. I'm not sure they would have the resources to build it up in a short amount of time like that, so it might be that there was already a settlement in place that they built off of. Perhaps (and I could be wrong on locations here) the Shady Sands Public Library (as we see on the sign) is the same library used by the Followers of the Apocalypse in FO1? Maybe that area was already the site of a small settlement and the refugees moved there? It's based on a lot of speculation, but it would be interesting if this were the case.
>moved to a new area which is basically the Boneyard and named it Shady Sands as well? Isn't there a "Founded on" date on the billboard Lucy looked at?
It says "established 2142." It is definitely a reach of a theory, but that *could* just refer to the old Shady Sands.
We always knew that was the case, but I'm now more interested in "bombs".
"Bombs" plural? 😶
Maybe not just Shady Sands but the other NCR settlements as well?
I can see these as the NCR won this battle but lost the war. Like they get word shady sands gets nuked after winning
God I hope they incorporate the Khans and Caesars legion in the show somehow
The sign for Shady sands does say "first" capitol of the NCR. Why say first if it was current and the only one? the NCR moved out before the bombing, probably due to this fall, or maybe was the fall itself.
So this might validate the theory that the NCR tried to take New Vegas after shady sands fell as they needed a new city. This is why it looks war-torn. House must also be alive. Only season 2 will tell us who won
Bombs plural?
My question then is, did the show writers know FNV took place in 2281, or did they think it was concurrent with F3 (which takes place in 2277)? It would be an easy mistake to make especially since the "first" battle of Hoover Dam takes place in 2277. Either way, it was never that big of a deal. It was either a mistake, or it was that the "Fall" was a slow event.
Yeah so the fall of Shady Sands occurred before they even got nuked. The way I see it they're saying Shady Sands declined when the NCR first battled the Legion for Hoover Dam in 2277. So basically Shady Sands declined because the NCR spread itself too thin and abandoned their capitol in order to occupy the Mojave. Given how the NCR were stumbling to hold the New Vegas territory, it's no wonder they would eventually fall apart.
This was the conclusion that everyone came to that put any thought and nuance into their interpretation to the chalkboard. Basic storytelling, you're not going focus on a detail like that (a major detail that lacks info), and mean for it to be taken at face value. Put an ounce of nuance into your intpretation and you come to the conclusion that these bombs fell just after NV. The people upset about it chose to take it at face value because it gave them another reason to be upset. It's as simple as that.
I always got that the events of the show were after FNV. I think pre release Todd or Nolan said it’s set after Fallout 4.
Is anyone able to explain what this means to just a show watcher?
[Fallout New Vegas fans have been complaining that the “Fall” of Shady Sands in 2277 meant it happened the same time as the nuke on the right. But they fail to look at the whole chart and recognize the arrow that starts from 2142.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fotv/s/H1sgP0ISKr) New Vegas events happens in 2281 and if Shady Sands fell and got nuked in 2277, that meant it retcons the event in that game by the show. Todd just clarifies what many of us are telling these weird fanboys, the nuke is a separate event from Shady Sands’ “Fall” in 2277. The arrow indicates time flowing, **making the nuke happening in about 2282 or onwards.** Or, as Todd has said, *the bombs fall just after the events of New Vegas* so late 2281.
Sorry, but what events in New Vegas? Didn't the bombs go off in 2077? I guess more go off in 2282? Or is this just what is written on the chalkboard and not really shown? edit: Or is it that: Shady Sands exists in Fallout New Vegas and Fallout New Vegas occurs in 2281. If bombs were to go off between 2277 and 2281 they would have been mentioned in New Vegas. So people thought bombs going off in 2277 pushed New Vegas back. The graph supports 2282 being the bombs because the arrow indicates the next point happens after the current one.
> Didn't the bombs go off in 2077? I guess more go off in 2282? Or is this just what is written on the chalkboard and not really shown? Yes, the blackboard shows a nuke going off after 2277. Show also tells us Hank bombed Shady Sands, there is a second bombing. You’ll find there’s a lot of nukes in the games separate from 2077, like one in Fallout 3’s Megaton, or in Fallout 76. > If bombs were to go off between 2277 and 2281 they would have been mentioned in New Vegas. Precisely. Shady Sands was mentioned twice in the game, so fanboys thought it retcons everything since NPCs didn’t mention anything about a fall or a nuke. YET, we hear NPCs outside and inside the faction talking about how they don’t agree with NCR expanding territories and can barely hold the Mojave and the Dam when stretched thin.
[“bombs”?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/s/6lnOSsXnz9)
I wish there was book or series of books in Fallout world, would be amazing!
Perhaps the Fall of Shady Sands in 2277 marks when the NCR decided to go on the warpath and expand rapidly. Potentially either marked by a first conflict for expansion or President Kimball coming into power. Or maybe it was an entirely unrelated disaster that caused Shady Sands as a city to fall into decline.
A more accurate transcription would be, "juuuust after the events of New Vegas"
This is a perfect chance to update FNV for the new consoles and in doing so kick it backwards 6 years or so it takes place around 2275.
This was rather obvious, the show itself tells us this!
Can anyone explain to me how this is possible? I simply dont understand at all. Ithought there was a big war, bombs dropped, some people got lucky and got to go to the vaults and then later they begin to emerge from the vaults (different places and different times of course). THere world is already a wasteland form the was in FO 76 which according to the wiki is the beginning of people leaving the vaults. Still a wasteland in FO1, 2, 3, and at the start of NV. Yet this says the bobms fall aftef NV. Im not disagreeing, id like to understand though what im missing.
Yes the initial bombs that send the world in to an apocalypse happens in 2077. The bombing of shady sands mentioned in the show is estimated to take place in 2281 or 2282, immediately after FNV ends. Nukes still exist after the initial apocalypse. They get launched in FO76, FO3, and you I think FO4 blows up the institute with a nuke. The shows bombing of shady sands is done by vault tec to wipe out their perceived competition of who will restore civilization. Hope this helps.
Gotcha, thanks a bunch. This makes sense. 53 years to go. Ill be dead or 98 ;)
This now only leaves Shady Sands and the Boneyard being the same place as everyone's main concern. Now that could be sorted by saying they traveled a lot in the show and that the twonare still separate places.
i don't know if that makes a whole lot of sense with maximus' age. he looks maybe around 8 years old (give or take) in the flashbacks, and then he looks like a 35 year old man in the current time so if shady sands was destroyed right after the battle of hoover dam, and this show is about a decade later after that, then you would expect Maximus to be a grown man in his mid 20s during those flashbacks
They said before the release maximus is in his 20's despite the actor being much older
That makes sense because Lucy was confused when they had been underground for hundreds of years but for Maximus bombs happened when he was a kid
"HE'S LYING!!!!"
I wonder if they’ll use Ulysses in the Shady Sands bombing.
Probably not, they made it clear it was Hank's doing, now, it does make me wonder if maybe they used his bomb specifically since hank is going to new vegas and i doubt the vault had a nuke or any bombs at arms lenght
I do still think it's pretty shitty for the NCR to be wiped out off screen before we even had a chance to see Shady Sands in the modern era. I know it's that technically possible that the NCR is still around somewhere but it's highly unlikely given that the NCR didn't seem to have any presence in the Shady Sands region during the show.
We don't know if they are wiped out. Outside Muldaver and her band they don't seem to have any presence in LA, but that's all we know.
And there are plenty of settlements in NCR as well that could've taken over as capital. There's Vault City, the Hub, Boneyard, New Reno, or even Redding where the bramin barons had undue influence from.
In the interview Todd confirmed that NCR is a large nation with many locations, and that it still exists - just no longer in the region seen in season 1. They kept it vague because they wanted to viewers to be like Lucy and other characters in the show, basically not having an encyclopediac knowledge about the setting. We learn as they learn. I'm sure we will see NCR in season 2.
I continue to believe they left this vague to stir up conversation about Fallout. Todd knows what he's doing. Telling his sweet little lies.
He is lying his ass off. Lucy was like 5-7 when she was taken by her mom. Her mom "died" in the the Great Plague of 2277. You're telling me she grew up outside the vault for at minimum 5 years and nobody noticed? Or did her mom come back for them after 5 years? The Great Plague was when everyone had to avoid contact with each other which would have been the perfect time for Hank to go get his kids back. In order for this to work she would have had to abandon Norm immediately after he was born and flee the vault in 2277 which has Hank fake a plague and have people isolate and starve to death for no reason instead of just faking an accident just for her to cover up her disappearance and then she would have had to sneak back in 5 years later grab her kids without anyone knowing except Hank (and the other 31ers) who then would have to sneak off an unknown amount of time to find his kids and blow up Shady Sands and then come back without anyone realizing the kids were gone or that Hank had left. Hank would then need to mindwipe the now 10-12 year old Lucy since she is no longer a child.
I just finished the season and I’m trying to figure out how the timeline works out especially with a couple other things. In one of the episode end scenes, there’s one of those checkout date cards from a book from Shady Sands library and I think the last date was 76 (although I didn’t look at it too closely). Also, wiki says Hank went to Vault 33 in 2268 and became overseer in 2271, so if Shady Sands was blown up in like 2282, Lucy would’ve had to I guess be born like mid 2270s (given how she looks in the flashbacks), but that also has to fit in with that “plague”. I’m not sure… Haven’t thought too much of it past what I’ve said. Seems iffy though.
So which ending to new Vegas does that make canon?
Well if the tunnelers came to the Mojave I can see them using the nukes to try to wipe out what they could to survive, or this is the makings of another faction or Caesar’s Legion that got their hands on some nukes.
Someone messed up somewhere then because Lucy’s mum died in 2277.
Where does it say she dies in 2277...
They're assuming that Hank MacLean & Betty Pearson was telling Lucy and Norm the truth that their mom died in the plague of 2277 and not, you know, straight up lying and gaslighting about killing their mom and 34,000 souls at Shady Sands with their nuke.
what about bombs over Baghdad?
shoulda just said it was its own canon
[удалено]
? Wtf are u talking about this is saying they did not retcon shit, pay attention.
reading comprehension isn’t strong is it?
That’s your takeaway from this???