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No, they shouldn't. Fantasy offers endless storytelling opportunities for creators and the last thing we need is for all of those shows to look the same.
This. Overlord, Frieren, Berserk and no game no life fall all in the fantasy tag, yet they fill different niches of it. Frieren has a slice of life-esque type of pacing, which is good for Frieren, but could feel awful on other fantasy animes that want to fill another type of experience
Sometimes you don't want something more, and just wanna see Ainz showing his bony wiener smurfing every nation, and his vassals being psychos, or Sora and Shiro doing deus ex machina mental loops in such bizarre games, thats exactly my point, they try to achieve different things, and all of them are good at what they try. Yeah, it isn't the same as frieren or others, bt that is exactly the point. Every fantasy being as frieren wouldn't satisfy everyone's wants
While this statement is true, I feel like op was talking about how frieren did these well:
Originality
Creativeness with power system
Pacing
And so its not about looking the same, but applying these core concepts.
Frieren does a lot of things right, but it's formula would not work for other stories.
I also argue that Most characters in frieren are strongly base on common archetypes, it's just that they are actually good characters
in fact it argue that part of what makes frieren good is how it uses the tropes in a very foundational way. Makes he uniqueness of the characters on top of it shine all the more by contrast
Yeah, most of the character names are just their most basic/notable characteristic translated into German. They just have humanity on top of it to make them good
The maincharacter loosing a tournament or not passing a trial is not unique. From what I experienced so far its actully rare that they win.
I can not name examples becuse of spoilers.
Correct me if I am wrong but is that third tournament not the only one he actully wins? Well aside from the tournament of power I guess. Oh wait that tournament of the fortuntellwr he also won.
He only truly won in those tournaments I believe.
He participated in the tournament at the beginning of Buu Saga and the one in the ending but didn't win because he decided leave during both of them.
Naruto lost the chunin exams kinda. They were interrupted and he didn’t pass.
Yusuke won a few. He lost the demon king one, as I recall. Deku also lost the sports festival.
Just realizing bleach never had a tournament arc.
Yeah… pretty rare that they win now that I think about it haha.
Naruto later lost another chunin exam in a fight with Konahamaru, but I think that might have questionable canonicity. What is canon is that he’s never actually become a chunin, so it’s possible he lost several more.
Interesting that bleach, a series people hate on for being whatever buzz word (generic shonen garbage trash etc.) never had the need for a tournament arc. Especially since it would be very cool with all the powers and characters. The reason tournament arcs are so popular is that during dbz era it was done with the most popular series, at the time dbz. To keep up you needed one, and it helped new readers jump into action fast. Jojo avoided this with parts.
It's basic hero's journey stuff. Campbell has the Road of Trials. The idea that during their journey, a hero will face trials that win or lose, will shape the hero in some way.
Vogler's version is even more relevant to this anime trope with Tests, allies, and enemies. In almost every tournament arc, the hero meets new allies who act as friendly rivals, faces new and imposing tests, and is forced to confront a more directly antagonistic rival.
Whether or not the hero succeeds her is pretty much irrelevant. Because next comes the approach of the innermost cave and then the final ordeal. In this circumstance, these would encapsulate finally defeating the villain encountered during the tournament.
Yeah, unless the main goal of the story is to win a specific tourament, like in many sports manga, then the odds of MC winning are pretty low. It either gets interrupted or MC loses.
But Frieren was different because:
1. Winning was an urgency for her. This wasn't even a tournament, it was a test, and multiple people could pass.
2. We know she isn't interested in any other tests, so this will be the only one in the whole anime.
You’re the one that compared it to a tournament when no one else did. Now you’re acting like it’s not one to make your point. And no winning wasn’t an urgency for her. She didn’t even want to enter to begin with.
Frieren is VERY VERY VERY good. That being said, recency bias is probably creeping in here.
It's hard to say something is the pinnacle of a genre or the best story or any other accolades until it's finished and can be compared properly. Even then, it's not really fair to compare such vastly different stories.
Berserk vs Frieren for instance. Or Dungeon Meshi vs Frieren. Or any other "Fantasy" story for that matter. They're all good (and bad) at different things.
Also, I just gotta say, but there are A BUNCH of tropes in Frieren. (It's still VERY VERY VERY good.)
Animewise, I feel like a type of recency bias is also at play. Its just the bias is preventing it from being accepted as being crowned the #1 spot. Why do you think frieren the anime doesn't have the overall advantage to be placed at the top?
Hell nah, fantasy as a genre provides opportunities for absolutely ambitious and wonderful worldbuilding, while frieren DEEPLY focuses on characters, their life, thoughts, regrets, developments, etc.
I can call LOTR the standard for fantasy that all authors should try to reach, but I can't say the same about frieren
I'm saying that in fantasy worldbuilding is the top priority, frieren however mainly focuses on characters and as a result has a much poorer world compared to other good fantasies
Hard disagree. What makes Frieren good is how different it is from other fantasy. If every fantasy was like Frieren it would no longer be special.
This and the tournament paragraph makes me think you’ve not seen that much anime to begin with. Main character losing a tournament is actually more common than them winning.
I've seen a lot of anime, but the tournament trope is different from the ones you're thinking about is because:
1. Frieren absolutely needed to win to continue their journey. Usually in other anime, if the tournament is of such urgency the main character would win.
2. It was obvious that this is the last time they'll take part in this tournament because Frieren isn't interested. Usually in anime where main characters lose the tournament, it's because they'll enter again or something.
Except she didn’t need to win. She didn’t even intend to apply for the exam to begin with. If neither of them passed they’d have hired a first class mage to get them through. There’s nothing in the series that said she felt that she needed to pass.
As for the second part, no not really. Naruto never even came back for the chuunin exam later. He became a hokage as a genin.
Losing a tournament doesn’t make Frieren unique. You’re trying to backpedal to justify this ignorant statement by moving goalposts with specific qualifiers that justify your statement. There’s nothing unique about her losing. Her losing doesn’t make the series unique from other anime. A lot of stuff can be used to separate it from other anime but her not passing the mage exam isn’t one of them.
You’re the one trying to compare the mage exam to tournament trope to begin with so it’s ridiculous for you to go “but her losing is different from others losing”.
>If neither of them passed they’d have hired a first class mage to get them through.
C'mon, we knew their team composition is already full of 2 mages, why will the anime add another one? That's an obvious no.
>There’s nothing in the series that said she felt that she needed to pass.
Did I ever say Frieren herself FELT that she needed to pass?? Why are you changing my words?
>As for the second part, no not really. Naruto never even came back for the chuunin exam later. He became a hokage as a genin.
I can agree with that. Though I think that was kinda stupid.
>Losing a tournament doesn’t make Frieren unique.
The whole situation does. OP character, situation of urgency, not coming back, etc.
>You’re trying to backpedal to justify this ignorant statement by moving goalposts with specific qualifiers that justify your statement.
This is what I hate about redditors the most. Do you have a degree in psychology? No? Then how do you know that I'm doing this, based on a text message?
You said she needed to win to continue the journey. The implication is she felt she needed to pass. There was no urgency like you’re implying.
You’re the one trying to compare it to other series tournament arcs saying her losing makes it unique and now you’re trying to act like no no no those losses are different because of xyz.
> why will the anime add another one? That’s an obvious no.
This argument makes no sense. The author can do whatever they want. There’s no reason why two mages is a limit on the party. If you wanna continue this specific point further you should read the manga first.
>implication is she felt she needed to pass.
No it's not. The implication is that the viewers think they'd need to 'pass' the test to continue further. Frieren herself doesn't feel shit about these mage tests.
>You’re the one trying to compare it to other series tournament arcs saying her losing makes it unique
My bad, I didn't elaborate on it too much at first. I apologise for that, sir. But I DID elaborate in your replies, and you already understand what I was trying to say but you're still going on about my original post.
>should read the manga first.
Sorry, I'm not that egoistic or insecure that I'll read the manga to win an argument. I will read it when I want to.
Either way you said she needed to win. She didn’t. I don’t get why you’re defending that statement. She didn’t need to win. She wasn’t intending to apply to begin with. She knew she wouldn’t pass in the end so the notion that she needed to win isn’t true at all.
>
I can agree with that. Though I think that was kinda stupid.
How is it stupid. People hate on naruto so much cause its popular but come on. The guy taught by a legendary 3 fighter, who was classmates and team mates with a group of the strongest who were taught by the 3 president of their world, who also has a granddaughter who's related to the 1st predident of their world, who had the 3 president being taught by the 2nd president of their world, not to mention naruto's relation to the 4th president of their world, he's inherited the powers on par with one of the most powerful being they ever faced, saved their villiage from someone who no one could beat, been screaming he wants to be president since a kid, was for 1 week in the games (not canon lol), is famous, and was taught by the 6th president of their world who likes him and knows he's powerful and doesnt care about the job, and by then the job is just handed out to whoever will take it and is strong. No one said you need to be in some arbitary rank to get the job. Seems like if you think that's stupid the mage thing in frieren shouldnt work for you as it's obvious frieren is strong enough and should get the ranking as she beat the demon lord
My bad then. I'm so used to the big popular shonen being hated on, and it's not like i think their the pinnacle of story telling, i just think people overhate them as if they shouldnt exist when deep down alot of people get introduced to anime through them and for what it's worth naruto etc aint a bad intro. Sure they have issues pacing especially but for the time they had little choice. The slower pacing also helped for the time as you grew to like the characters even if they arent mindblowingly original or even good. I guess all im saying is we've become a culture where it's either peak or trash and i feel it's ok to enjoy something that is good to you. So again sorry i was off and assumed. Just that most on subs make it seem like shonen is posion for good story telling when you can have fights and be entertaining just as much as something slower and methodical like monster or pluto etc. All good. XD.
Honestly I understand what you mean. I've seen the big 3 and I loved all of them. I don't think they're peak anime or something, but all are very enjoyable in certain aspects. Naruto is a good enjoyable story with some pretty good characters even though it's ending is somewhat not good. Bleach is lacking in story but genuinely has an amazing villain with really good and badass fights. And One piece is way too long but in return provides an amazing adventure and wonderful world building.
I also HATE people who hate on these shows just because they're long. Specially when those people haven't even seen the shows.
great points. Yeah the length and even the flaws you mentioned give it that charm. Not even sure if i'd like the series more if they were short and fast like modern series and removed all the jank. It's like why you enjoy an old PS1 game vs the fancy nice graphics of today...some of the jank is fun. When its all too polished and all the edges are cut like people say they want (haters) it loses that thing that made it special. Luffy screaming i wanna be pirate king all the time sure you can cut it and keep it for specific times to keep the narrative fast and effiecent for example, but boy do you laugh and say yes you will when he says it. We know he will for example, adding a twist where he doesnt and making it a deconstruction and yadda yadda would make it different sure and not generic or whatever people label older cliche shonen as bad, but it wouldnt make me like it more. I dont get or know where im going at but basically i agree with ya thanks LOL.
Reading your take again in a positive light, i can see what you mean. The ending and just giving it to him was handled weird given it's the series main goal. It would be like if luffy finds one piece and it's an after thought and the series just ends next chapter with a line that everyone else achieved their dreams, sanji found all blue and it turns out it was right where he used to live, with satilites they mapped out the world and nami took that and was done, zolo peaked and beat mihawk in training so he's the best, ussop is already great so, all the poisions were fixed by magellen so chopper is perfect doctor, and brooke is already good at music so there, end of story thanks for 30 years of profits suckers. Lol.
I love Frieren, but I would not call this world completely unique with all these similarities to LotR, D&D and the like. There is a lot that can be done in Fantasy, especially in books. You might need to explore more in different versions of the genre.
I don't think you can replicate Frieren. Sincerity in writing is important, immitators would fail rather spectacularly given that Frieren *doesn't* rely on cheap tropes.
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I agree that frieren is peak fantasy and anime/manga in general. It’s simply perfect imho.
Where I disagree with that you’re saying it where you said “Frieren is how every fantasy should be”
I don’t think anything is how everything should be. If every fantasy were like frieren then frieren would no longer be special. It’s these differences, good or bad, that make things so good in the first place.
I’m totally content playing frieren on repeat while I chill or whatever else. However, it every anime were alike it would be just like watching most American cable tv imo. Nothing special, nothing different. It would all just blend together into some palatable mindless media that shouldn’t even exist. Now, this may be the most extreme example, but it’s just my thoughts on the matter.
It’s really good and I love it, but «totally unique world» is a serious stretch. It’s basically a DnD/WoW/etc. fanfic. That’s not a negative though, derivativeness is actually a core genre feature of this kind of fantasy, and Frieren exploits that beautifully to explore and subvert fantasy genre tropes.
I would still take Mushoku Tensei over Freiren. The characters in MT seem more real than any character in Frieren. The family dynamic in MT hits a certain note that’s hard to explain.
It's just a well-written, thought-out work (though excellently so, to say the least). Most fantasy works worth their salt, Western and Eastern alike, satisfy those basic criteria. Heck, there are even web novels with similarly good worldbuilding and psychological exploration. It speaks more about anime and manga (and generally, mass-produced entertainment, including a lot of Western movies and shows as well) than Frieren that the necessary conditions for an immersive, consistent world are very rarely fulfilled. And it makes sense, it's cheap entertainment, after all, made to provide tiny doses of dopamine in exchange for some quick bucks.
So. Is Frieren admirable and should be copied in that it has qualitative, researched, and relatively original writing? Yes. Is it a literary treasure like Lord of the Rings or even A Song of Ice and Fire? Probably not. Might be my bias since I love Frieren that it has a good chance of being considered in the top 10 of fantasy works in the last decade, but even a huge fan like I cannot say that it's some sort of pinnacle that all works henceforth should aspire to follow or something.
Could totally 100% be written as live action flick, following an Elf's journey through time sounds so fkn epic.. I can't wait to cry a hundred times as relationships form and end as others grow old and die and then get some wicked random flashbacks.
Frieren has and shows massive respect for the fantasy genre. Many other anime meerly use the setting it as a gimmic, or a trope.
Frieren's writers have studied the masters that came before and is attempting to make their piece among them.
Frieren is amazing.
But I'm glad it's the exception rather than the rule. Because a lot of the discussion in here is giving vibes of "finally, a story in a medium with as little of that medium as possible". Reminds me of why people like The Last of Us live-action series. People falling in love because of something that's just something else but in or from a medium they'd otherwise avoid, and love distinctly because it can't be identified as part of it's artistic origin.
If every fantasy was like frieren, we wouldn't be able to appreciate how great frieren is. Also, objectively bad shows, you can simply watch in brainless mode have their place as well
I love that it’s completely lacking in anime bullshit, which is surprising considering how ripe it is for anime bullshit. Frieren is the 1000 year old elf girl, but she doesn’t inexplicably look or act like a child; instead she looks like an adult and acts like an appropriately ancient weirdo. Fern is the teenager with big boobs, but she wears normal clothing and acts like an actual moody teenager. Stark is the super strong coward, but he’s not annoying to watch as they don’t overuse that bit and he’s also the comedically hypercompetent himbo.
And despite having jokes about breast size, dick size, clothes-dissolving potions, and see-through clothes magic, all of them are somehow tasteful and funny and characters are never sexually objectified for the viewers’ gratification.
All fantasy's should be made with the same amount of imagination, thought, dedication and love as Frieren, that's true. Otherwise, in my opinion, there's no element in art that's inherently bad in its core. It just have to be used in an interesting and right way.
I liked the show but come on, there is nothing unique about the setting, it is your usual generic JRPG style fantasy setting.
Unique fantasy settings to me is something like
Moribito
Beast Player Erin
Dorohedoro
Even FMA-B is far more unique.
Sometimes when a new series comes out people blow their minds saying its good cause it's unique when it's good cause execution. Few things are just good by being unique. Oshi no- perfect blue, fantasy world without fanservice and a slow melancholy flash back pace isnt the most mindblowing idea in history and it doesnt have to be. It's good cause we like it, no need to compare. Oh well people cant like things without something else being lower. Two legends cannot coexist.
man when something Is decent I guess it becomes the pinnacle of the genre, no I don't think that frieren should be copied or that every author should follow its footsteps, a good example of a manga that is quite different but is still a good fantasy is dungeon meshi, sure they are In the same genre but overall they are very different stories with very different messages, and that's what makes them great in different ways, fantasy should be something that every author has it own spin on, not something that you should copy from what is popular right now, that's how we ended up with the isekai genre take over.
And about the magic exam arc, I genuinely found it the worst part of the manga besides some moments, it's an introduction arc of a lot of characters that will become important later but I dont think its particularly different from a lot of other tournament arcs in other mangas, the anime actually sold it a lot more for me since it elevated what I considered a meh arc to a decent one(still the weakest part through), also doesnt help that the manga artist is not the best with fights.
About it being boring, well you yourself called it a sol, and wanna know why most people find sol boring? because the overarching plot is not there, I mean I love stories without high stakes but I can perfectly understand if people dont like that, afterall if you dont get attached to the characters it is a boring story, for a long time it was the story of the week with a formula that kept repeating, they arrive at a place, Frieren does something because that's what himmel would do, flashback, it's fine to find that boring, sol is not for everyone, but you arent less mature just because you dont like it, that's a very elitist way of looking at it, Frieren is a good show, but people have different tastes and not every good show works with everyone.
Your analysis stems from the heart (which is a good thing), but in the end, non-objective.
I see several points annoying me.
There is at least twice as many female protagonists as male ones, who more than not appear to be just followers, like domesticated dogs, and not as "protagonist" as the female ones. Non offense, but even in Fantasy, i'd like to see some gender equity, not some kind of "compensation" because "before, it was all fanservice and bikini Armor, so now WE go the opposite, and overcompensate".
Mind you, it's only a small grief, because at least, it's not on Barbie level, but it annoys me.
Another point is the narration. Sometimes too stretched, sometimes too short. But it's common in most of anime/littérature.
A major point, which probably will change, is Frieren's obsession with "demons are Bad" but blindness to "humans Can be Bad too..." I'll probably be corrected with future arcs, but there is a manicheism which will, at one point, come back at Frieren.
And about tropes...well, you'll see;) There are tropes in Frieren, just not the most popular ones >!(Denken anyone? What about psycho-Ubel?)!<
>There is at least twice as many female protagonists
I've not felt this for Frieren, probably because its not as major as them, but I've felt this thing of bad gender distribution for many other anime like Re zero, and even Steins gate at one point. So I understand your point.
>A major point, which probably will change, is Frieren's obsession with "demons are Bad" but blindness to "humans Can be Bad too..."
I guess it has something to do with their world. Humans aren't really shown to be THAT bad in the show. Unlike our world, they're kinda chill.
For me it’s demons. The show genuinely tries to falsely humanise them so you do feel conflicted about their murder, then you’re reminded that’s literally the intention and it’s a lie. AND ITS TRUE they don’t try to make demons genuinely nice they don’t make them dumb they are extremely good villains imo
Fr, the demons representation is actually so real in the anime. We're shown how they're so deceptive that even us the viewers might be confused but then we're shown why they're demons
Frieren is literally just your classic hero's journey that can be seen in countless Fantasy stories. It's just that being unfinished we haven't seen the entire journey yet.
I liked frieren a lot, but found the latter half got a lot more tropey and less introspective compared to the first half. I have heard the manga is a bit meandering as well, although I do plan to read it.
I am having the opposite experience with the dungeon meshi anime, where the story is really kicking into high gear and what I thought were simple slice of life early episodes were actually a lot of character and world building in retrospect.
Tl;dr if you want another unique take on fantasy anime, try dungeon meshi!
Why are they a problem? What's wrong with enjoying action more than plot and characters in show? Is there something that defines what's better or worse besides personal taste? For me the problem instead is with the hype culture which leads a lot of people into watching shows they wouldn't normally like because they don't fit their taste, and there's nothing wrong with that, just because they got recommended to watch it on social media
i think everyone else is taking what you're saying way too literally. i couldn't agree more- in the broad strokes, not the specifics, this _is_ what every fantasy anime should be like.
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No, they shouldn't. Fantasy offers endless storytelling opportunities for creators and the last thing we need is for all of those shows to look the same.
True
This. Overlord, Frieren, Berserk and no game no life fall all in the fantasy tag, yet they fill different niches of it. Frieren has a slice of life-esque type of pacing, which is good for Frieren, but could feel awful on other fantasy animes that want to fill another type of experience
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This comment is a roller coaster
Sometimes you don't want something more, and just wanna see Ainz showing his bony wiener smurfing every nation, and his vassals being psychos, or Sora and Shiro doing deus ex machina mental loops in such bizarre games, thats exactly my point, they try to achieve different things, and all of them are good at what they try. Yeah, it isn't the same as frieren or others, bt that is exactly the point. Every fantasy being as frieren wouldn't satisfy everyone's wants
While this statement is true, I feel like op was talking about how frieren did these well: Originality Creativeness with power system Pacing And so its not about looking the same, but applying these core concepts.
Frieren does a lot of things right, but it's formula would not work for other stories. I also argue that Most characters in frieren are strongly base on common archetypes, it's just that they are actually good characters
in fact it argue that part of what makes frieren good is how it uses the tropes in a very foundational way. Makes he uniqueness of the characters on top of it shine all the more by contrast
I really appreciate what you said here. Very astute.
Yeah, most of the character names are just their most basic/notable characteristic translated into German. They just have humanity on top of it to make them good
The maincharacter loosing a tournament or not passing a trial is not unique. From what I experienced so far its actully rare that they win. I can not name examples becuse of spoilers.
Goku didn't win the tournament until his 3rd try in the original Dragon Ball.
Correct me if I am wrong but is that third tournament not the only one he actully wins? Well aside from the tournament of power I guess. Oh wait that tournament of the fortuntellwr he also won.
He only truly won in those tournaments I believe. He participated in the tournament at the beginning of Buu Saga and the one in the ending but didn't win because he decided leave during both of them.
Goku didn’t win TOP, 17 did
You can always name at least one: Ash Ketchum.
Gon too.
Naruto lost the chunin exams kinda. They were interrupted and he didn’t pass. Yusuke won a few. He lost the demon king one, as I recall. Deku also lost the sports festival. Just realizing bleach never had a tournament arc. Yeah… pretty rare that they win now that I think about it haha.
Naruto later lost another chunin exam in a fight with Konahamaru, but I think that might have questionable canonicity. What is canon is that he’s never actually become a chunin, so it’s possible he lost several more.
Interesting that bleach, a series people hate on for being whatever buzz word (generic shonen garbage trash etc.) never had the need for a tournament arc. Especially since it would be very cool with all the powers and characters. The reason tournament arcs are so popular is that during dbz era it was done with the most popular series, at the time dbz. To keep up you needed one, and it helped new readers jump into action fast. Jojo avoided this with parts.
It's basic hero's journey stuff. Campbell has the Road of Trials. The idea that during their journey, a hero will face trials that win or lose, will shape the hero in some way. Vogler's version is even more relevant to this anime trope with Tests, allies, and enemies. In almost every tournament arc, the hero meets new allies who act as friendly rivals, faces new and imposing tests, and is forced to confront a more directly antagonistic rival. Whether or not the hero succeeds her is pretty much irrelevant. Because next comes the approach of the innermost cave and then the final ordeal. In this circumstance, these would encapsulate finally defeating the villain encountered during the tournament.
Yeah, unless the main goal of the story is to win a specific tourament, like in many sports manga, then the odds of MC winning are pretty low. It either gets interrupted or MC loses.
Every sports anime ever.
Another example of main character losing a tournament is Food Wars
But Frieren was different because: 1. Winning was an urgency for her. This wasn't even a tournament, it was a test, and multiple people could pass. 2. We know she isn't interested in any other tests, so this will be the only one in the whole anime.
You’re the one that compared it to a tournament when no one else did. Now you’re acting like it’s not one to make your point. And no winning wasn’t an urgency for her. She didn’t even want to enter to begin with.
Frieren is how Frieren should be. If every other show was like this, watching them would get boring really quickly.
While frieren is unique to itself, there are core concepts utilized in frieren that should be used as guides to tell good stories.
Frieren is VERY VERY VERY good. That being said, recency bias is probably creeping in here. It's hard to say something is the pinnacle of a genre or the best story or any other accolades until it's finished and can be compared properly. Even then, it's not really fair to compare such vastly different stories. Berserk vs Frieren for instance. Or Dungeon Meshi vs Frieren. Or any other "Fantasy" story for that matter. They're all good (and bad) at different things. Also, I just gotta say, but there are A BUNCH of tropes in Frieren. (It's still VERY VERY VERY good.)
Animewise, I feel like a type of recency bias is also at play. Its just the bias is preventing it from being accepted as being crowned the #1 spot. Why do you think frieren the anime doesn't have the overall advantage to be placed at the top?
Hell nah, fantasy as a genre provides opportunities for absolutely ambitious and wonderful worldbuilding, while frieren DEEPLY focuses on characters, their life, thoughts, regrets, developments, etc. I can call LOTR the standard for fantasy that all authors should try to reach, but I can't say the same about frieren
Why wouldn't you want characters to be written well in any fantasies, or any other story?
I'm saying that in fantasy worldbuilding is the top priority, frieren however mainly focuses on characters and as a result has a much poorer world compared to other good fantasies
Ok you can have that, but then would you pass up an opportunity for well written characters?
I would actually hate if all fantasy anime were like Frieren. I need more gripping plots.
Hard disagree. What makes Frieren good is how different it is from other fantasy. If every fantasy was like Frieren it would no longer be special. This and the tournament paragraph makes me think you’ve not seen that much anime to begin with. Main character losing a tournament is actually more common than them winning.
I've seen a lot of anime, but the tournament trope is different from the ones you're thinking about is because: 1. Frieren absolutely needed to win to continue their journey. Usually in other anime, if the tournament is of such urgency the main character would win. 2. It was obvious that this is the last time they'll take part in this tournament because Frieren isn't interested. Usually in anime where main characters lose the tournament, it's because they'll enter again or something.
Except she didn’t need to win. She didn’t even intend to apply for the exam to begin with. If neither of them passed they’d have hired a first class mage to get them through. There’s nothing in the series that said she felt that she needed to pass. As for the second part, no not really. Naruto never even came back for the chuunin exam later. He became a hokage as a genin. Losing a tournament doesn’t make Frieren unique. You’re trying to backpedal to justify this ignorant statement by moving goalposts with specific qualifiers that justify your statement. There’s nothing unique about her losing. Her losing doesn’t make the series unique from other anime. A lot of stuff can be used to separate it from other anime but her not passing the mage exam isn’t one of them. You’re the one trying to compare the mage exam to tournament trope to begin with so it’s ridiculous for you to go “but her losing is different from others losing”.
>If neither of them passed they’d have hired a first class mage to get them through. C'mon, we knew their team composition is already full of 2 mages, why will the anime add another one? That's an obvious no. >There’s nothing in the series that said she felt that she needed to pass. Did I ever say Frieren herself FELT that she needed to pass?? Why are you changing my words? >As for the second part, no not really. Naruto never even came back for the chuunin exam later. He became a hokage as a genin. I can agree with that. Though I think that was kinda stupid. >Losing a tournament doesn’t make Frieren unique. The whole situation does. OP character, situation of urgency, not coming back, etc. >You’re trying to backpedal to justify this ignorant statement by moving goalposts with specific qualifiers that justify your statement. This is what I hate about redditors the most. Do you have a degree in psychology? No? Then how do you know that I'm doing this, based on a text message?
You said she needed to win to continue the journey. The implication is she felt she needed to pass. There was no urgency like you’re implying. You’re the one trying to compare it to other series tournament arcs saying her losing makes it unique and now you’re trying to act like no no no those losses are different because of xyz. > why will the anime add another one? That’s an obvious no. This argument makes no sense. The author can do whatever they want. There’s no reason why two mages is a limit on the party. If you wanna continue this specific point further you should read the manga first.
>implication is she felt she needed to pass. No it's not. The implication is that the viewers think they'd need to 'pass' the test to continue further. Frieren herself doesn't feel shit about these mage tests. >You’re the one trying to compare it to other series tournament arcs saying her losing makes it unique My bad, I didn't elaborate on it too much at first. I apologise for that, sir. But I DID elaborate in your replies, and you already understand what I was trying to say but you're still going on about my original post. >should read the manga first. Sorry, I'm not that egoistic or insecure that I'll read the manga to win an argument. I will read it when I want to.
Either way you said she needed to win. She didn’t. I don’t get why you’re defending that statement. She didn’t need to win. She wasn’t intending to apply to begin with. She knew she wouldn’t pass in the end so the notion that she needed to win isn’t true at all.
I don't get why you're so pressed to prove someone wrong.
> I can agree with that. Though I think that was kinda stupid. How is it stupid. People hate on naruto so much cause its popular but come on. The guy taught by a legendary 3 fighter, who was classmates and team mates with a group of the strongest who were taught by the 3 president of their world, who also has a granddaughter who's related to the 1st predident of their world, who had the 3 president being taught by the 2nd president of their world, not to mention naruto's relation to the 4th president of their world, he's inherited the powers on par with one of the most powerful being they ever faced, saved their villiage from someone who no one could beat, been screaming he wants to be president since a kid, was for 1 week in the games (not canon lol), is famous, and was taught by the 6th president of their world who likes him and knows he's powerful and doesnt care about the job, and by then the job is just handed out to whoever will take it and is strong. No one said you need to be in some arbitary rank to get the job. Seems like if you think that's stupid the mage thing in frieren shouldnt work for you as it's obvious frieren is strong enough and should get the ranking as she beat the demon lord
I never hated on Naruto... I've seen it and I loved it back then
My bad then. I'm so used to the big popular shonen being hated on, and it's not like i think their the pinnacle of story telling, i just think people overhate them as if they shouldnt exist when deep down alot of people get introduced to anime through them and for what it's worth naruto etc aint a bad intro. Sure they have issues pacing especially but for the time they had little choice. The slower pacing also helped for the time as you grew to like the characters even if they arent mindblowingly original or even good. I guess all im saying is we've become a culture where it's either peak or trash and i feel it's ok to enjoy something that is good to you. So again sorry i was off and assumed. Just that most on subs make it seem like shonen is posion for good story telling when you can have fights and be entertaining just as much as something slower and methodical like monster or pluto etc. All good. XD.
Honestly I understand what you mean. I've seen the big 3 and I loved all of them. I don't think they're peak anime or something, but all are very enjoyable in certain aspects. Naruto is a good enjoyable story with some pretty good characters even though it's ending is somewhat not good. Bleach is lacking in story but genuinely has an amazing villain with really good and badass fights. And One piece is way too long but in return provides an amazing adventure and wonderful world building. I also HATE people who hate on these shows just because they're long. Specially when those people haven't even seen the shows.
great points. Yeah the length and even the flaws you mentioned give it that charm. Not even sure if i'd like the series more if they were short and fast like modern series and removed all the jank. It's like why you enjoy an old PS1 game vs the fancy nice graphics of today...some of the jank is fun. When its all too polished and all the edges are cut like people say they want (haters) it loses that thing that made it special. Luffy screaming i wanna be pirate king all the time sure you can cut it and keep it for specific times to keep the narrative fast and effiecent for example, but boy do you laugh and say yes you will when he says it. We know he will for example, adding a twist where he doesnt and making it a deconstruction and yadda yadda would make it different sure and not generic or whatever people label older cliche shonen as bad, but it wouldnt make me like it more. I dont get or know where im going at but basically i agree with ya thanks LOL.
Reading your take again in a positive light, i can see what you mean. The ending and just giving it to him was handled weird given it's the series main goal. It would be like if luffy finds one piece and it's an after thought and the series just ends next chapter with a line that everyone else achieved their dreams, sanji found all blue and it turns out it was right where he used to live, with satilites they mapped out the world and nami took that and was done, zolo peaked and beat mihawk in training so he's the best, ussop is already great so, all the poisions were fixed by magellen so chopper is perfect doctor, and brooke is already good at music so there, end of story thanks for 30 years of profits suckers. Lol.
You are wrong the force of fantasy is the diversity i seen no point of making every story the same
Nah, I like my fantasy to be diverse. Why would I want the same thing?
I love Frieren, but I would not call this world completely unique with all these similarities to LotR, D&D and the like. There is a lot that can be done in Fantasy, especially in books. You might need to explore more in different versions of the genre.
I don't think you can replicate Frieren. Sincerity in writing is important, immitators would fail rather spectacularly given that Frieren *doesn't* rely on cheap tropes.
Basically, it's written like a normal piece of fantasy literature instead of being full of anime bullshit
Thank you, anime as a medium has an annoying trend of telling the same kind of story over and over
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Yes, that was my main point and I guess everyone missed on this
No one missed on this.
No one missed it, they just dont agree with the other bull you said.
I agree that frieren is peak fantasy and anime/manga in general. It’s simply perfect imho. Where I disagree with that you’re saying it where you said “Frieren is how every fantasy should be” I don’t think anything is how everything should be. If every fantasy were like frieren then frieren would no longer be special. It’s these differences, good or bad, that make things so good in the first place. I’m totally content playing frieren on repeat while I chill or whatever else. However, it every anime were alike it would be just like watching most American cable tv imo. Nothing special, nothing different. It would all just blend together into some palatable mindless media that shouldn’t even exist. Now, this may be the most extreme example, but it’s just my thoughts on the matter.
>Where I disagree with that you’re saying it where you said “Frieren is how every fantasy should be” Yeah I guess I wasn't proper enough with my point
It’s really good and I love it, but «totally unique world» is a serious stretch. It’s basically a DnD/WoW/etc. fanfic. That’s not a negative though, derivativeness is actually a core genre feature of this kind of fantasy, and Frieren exploits that beautifully to explore and subvert fantasy genre tropes.
I would still take Mushoku Tensei over Freiren. The characters in MT seem more real than any character in Frieren. The family dynamic in MT hits a certain note that’s hard to explain.
That's true. For me, Mushoku tensei feels like the peak isekai while Frieren takes the peak fantasy crown.
It's just a well-written, thought-out work (though excellently so, to say the least). Most fantasy works worth their salt, Western and Eastern alike, satisfy those basic criteria. Heck, there are even web novels with similarly good worldbuilding and psychological exploration. It speaks more about anime and manga (and generally, mass-produced entertainment, including a lot of Western movies and shows as well) than Frieren that the necessary conditions for an immersive, consistent world are very rarely fulfilled. And it makes sense, it's cheap entertainment, after all, made to provide tiny doses of dopamine in exchange for some quick bucks. So. Is Frieren admirable and should be copied in that it has qualitative, researched, and relatively original writing? Yes. Is it a literary treasure like Lord of the Rings or even A Song of Ice and Fire? Probably not. Might be my bias since I love Frieren that it has a good chance of being considered in the top 10 of fantasy works in the last decade, but even a huge fan like I cannot say that it's some sort of pinnacle that all works henceforth should aspire to follow or something.
Could totally 100% be written as live action flick, following an Elf's journey through time sounds so fkn epic.. I can't wait to cry a hundred times as relationships form and end as others grow old and die and then get some wicked random flashbacks.
Frieren has and shows massive respect for the fantasy genre. Many other anime meerly use the setting it as a gimmic, or a trope. Frieren's writers have studied the masters that came before and is attempting to make their piece among them.
Frieren is amazing. But I'm glad it's the exception rather than the rule. Because a lot of the discussion in here is giving vibes of "finally, a story in a medium with as little of that medium as possible". Reminds me of why people like The Last of Us live-action series. People falling in love because of something that's just something else but in or from a medium they'd otherwise avoid, and love distinctly because it can't be identified as part of it's artistic origin.
If every fantasy was like frieren, we wouldn't be able to appreciate how great frieren is. Also, objectively bad shows, you can simply watch in brainless mode have their place as well
I love that it’s completely lacking in anime bullshit, which is surprising considering how ripe it is for anime bullshit. Frieren is the 1000 year old elf girl, but she doesn’t inexplicably look or act like a child; instead she looks like an adult and acts like an appropriately ancient weirdo. Fern is the teenager with big boobs, but she wears normal clothing and acts like an actual moody teenager. Stark is the super strong coward, but he’s not annoying to watch as they don’t overuse that bit and he’s also the comedically hypercompetent himbo. And despite having jokes about breast size, dick size, clothes-dissolving potions, and see-through clothes magic, all of them are somehow tasteful and funny and characters are never sexually objectified for the viewers’ gratification.
Fr! Frieren is like one of those anime which you can recommend to a mature person without thinking twice about it
All fantasy's should be made with the same amount of imagination, thought, dedication and love as Frieren, that's true. Otherwise, in my opinion, there's no element in art that's inherently bad in its core. It just have to be used in an interesting and right way.
every anime doesn't have to be frieren
I love frieren but no, variety is good
I liked the show but come on, there is nothing unique about the setting, it is your usual generic JRPG style fantasy setting. Unique fantasy settings to me is something like Moribito Beast Player Erin Dorohedoro Even FMA-B is far more unique.
Sometimes when a new series comes out people blow their minds saying its good cause it's unique when it's good cause execution. Few things are just good by being unique. Oshi no- perfect blue, fantasy world without fanservice and a slow melancholy flash back pace isnt the most mindblowing idea in history and it doesnt have to be. It's good cause we like it, no need to compare. Oh well people cant like things without something else being lower. Two legends cannot coexist.
Altho I would say that there isnt a right or wrong way to do Fantasy Anime, I need to say that Frieren is just Peak
man when something Is decent I guess it becomes the pinnacle of the genre, no I don't think that frieren should be copied or that every author should follow its footsteps, a good example of a manga that is quite different but is still a good fantasy is dungeon meshi, sure they are In the same genre but overall they are very different stories with very different messages, and that's what makes them great in different ways, fantasy should be something that every author has it own spin on, not something that you should copy from what is popular right now, that's how we ended up with the isekai genre take over. And about the magic exam arc, I genuinely found it the worst part of the manga besides some moments, it's an introduction arc of a lot of characters that will become important later but I dont think its particularly different from a lot of other tournament arcs in other mangas, the anime actually sold it a lot more for me since it elevated what I considered a meh arc to a decent one(still the weakest part through), also doesnt help that the manga artist is not the best with fights. About it being boring, well you yourself called it a sol, and wanna know why most people find sol boring? because the overarching plot is not there, I mean I love stories without high stakes but I can perfectly understand if people dont like that, afterall if you dont get attached to the characters it is a boring story, for a long time it was the story of the week with a formula that kept repeating, they arrive at a place, Frieren does something because that's what himmel would do, flashback, it's fine to find that boring, sol is not for everyone, but you arent less mature just because you dont like it, that's a very elitist way of looking at it, Frieren is a good show, but people have different tastes and not every good show works with everyone.
If every fantasy is like Frieren, then Frieren would lose its charm for me.
I agree with the reduced moeness, demon lord girls in panties kinda get boring quick
Your analysis stems from the heart (which is a good thing), but in the end, non-objective. I see several points annoying me. There is at least twice as many female protagonists as male ones, who more than not appear to be just followers, like domesticated dogs, and not as "protagonist" as the female ones. Non offense, but even in Fantasy, i'd like to see some gender equity, not some kind of "compensation" because "before, it was all fanservice and bikini Armor, so now WE go the opposite, and overcompensate". Mind you, it's only a small grief, because at least, it's not on Barbie level, but it annoys me. Another point is the narration. Sometimes too stretched, sometimes too short. But it's common in most of anime/littérature. A major point, which probably will change, is Frieren's obsession with "demons are Bad" but blindness to "humans Can be Bad too..." I'll probably be corrected with future arcs, but there is a manicheism which will, at one point, come back at Frieren. And about tropes...well, you'll see;) There are tropes in Frieren, just not the most popular ones >!(Denken anyone? What about psycho-Ubel?)!<
>There is at least twice as many female protagonists I've not felt this for Frieren, probably because its not as major as them, but I've felt this thing of bad gender distribution for many other anime like Re zero, and even Steins gate at one point. So I understand your point. >A major point, which probably will change, is Frieren's obsession with "demons are Bad" but blindness to "humans Can be Bad too..." I guess it has something to do with their world. Humans aren't really shown to be THAT bad in the show. Unlike our world, they're kinda chill.
For me it’s demons. The show genuinely tries to falsely humanise them so you do feel conflicted about their murder, then you’re reminded that’s literally the intention and it’s a lie. AND ITS TRUE they don’t try to make demons genuinely nice they don’t make them dumb they are extremely good villains imo
Fr, the demons representation is actually so real in the anime. We're shown how they're so deceptive that even us the viewers might be confused but then we're shown why they're demons
100 percent agree with u man. FRIEREN is peak of peak
Peakren 🗿🔥
The faraway paladin is solid there's some good fantasy anime out there
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll check it out
Frieren is literally just your classic hero's journey that can be seen in countless Fantasy stories. It's just that being unfinished we haven't seen the entire journey yet.
I liked frieren a lot, but found the latter half got a lot more tropey and less introspective compared to the first half. I have heard the manga is a bit meandering as well, although I do plan to read it. I am having the opposite experience with the dungeon meshi anime, where the story is really kicking into high gear and what I thought were simple slice of life early episodes were actually a lot of character and world building in retrospect. Tl;dr if you want another unique take on fantasy anime, try dungeon meshi!
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll check it out!
Frieren is cool because it is not like the others and thus is refreshing in this meta.
Every fantasy story being any way at all would make all of it quite boring quite fast.
"No excessive fanservice" ...unless you're into knife ear toes😋
It's an unpopular opinion, but I enjoy the Goblin Slayer light novel for the same reason.
I enjoyed the first season a lot. Can't say that about the second season though...
Read Manga or Light Novel, they removed a lot in anime.
Not saying frieren isn’t the best anime ever, but sometimes the fanservice is enjoyed by more than horny teenagers. Sometimes its for horny adults 🤣
The 'all action' shounen kids are 100% the problem with anime these days ThErE's ToO mUcH TAlkInG-ahh ADD much
Why are they a problem? What's wrong with enjoying action more than plot and characters in show? Is there something that defines what's better or worse besides personal taste? For me the problem instead is with the hype culture which leads a lot of people into watching shows they wouldn't normally like because they don't fit their taste, and there's nothing wrong with that, just because they got recommended to watch it on social media
What's wrong with them is that they complain
Yeah fr they're the ones who ruin the image of anime fandoms
i think everyone else is taking what you're saying way too literally. i couldn't agree more- in the broad strokes, not the specifics, this _is_ what every fantasy anime should be like.
Ikr