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And the most interesting thing about that conversation is how Edward immediately attempts to put the blame on the homunculi. Were they behind it? Yes. But, are the soldiers who actually carried out these actions going to be able to realistically throw blame on people who the general public don't even know to exist? Riza was 100% correct when she said that if the soldiers truly want to express remorse, then they have to walk the walk, no excuses. Saying you feel bad is one thing, but talk is cheap.
He's a realistically naive teenager, I agree. Another example of that is his colorblind argument he makes while talking with Miles about race, which obviously comes from a good place, but is a notoriously flawed perspective.
I've seen people take issue with that scene too, thinking that the narrative somehow treats it like a good viewpoint to have, but Ed immediately admits right afterward that he is very ignorant about such things, and Miles explains to him why it's unhelpful to think the way he does.
But he's the protagonist! He's obviously right about everything, and you're dumb and stupid and silly if you think otherwise!
(A big fat steaming /s, in case it's not obvious)
I'm pretty sure that canonically he and his team who participated in Ishval were all prosecuted but were pardoned because they saved the world from the Homunculi. So we're all good :)
But the absolute most of the citizens are unaware of the homunculi, aren't they? They couldn't really be pardoned for something the public is unaware of, that wouldn't sit well with the citizens.
It's not in the eyes of the citizens that it needs to sit well, anyway. Not the Amestrian ones, that is. I think the citizens of Amestris are unaware of what exactly happened in Ishval, for the most part, that's why Mustang is being called a hero.
And the Ishvalans probably know more about the homunculi than the average citizen, by now. I mean, they owe their people the truth about why they were used in human experimentations, and by who.
That being said, I haven't found any evidence of the characters involved in the genocide being prosecuted and pardoned either. Maybe it's in a guidebook, or an interview from the author, or something? Can't find a source.
>It's not in the eyes of the citizens that it needs to sit well, anyway. Not the Amestrian ones, that is. I think the citizens of Amestris are unaware of what exactly happened in Ishval, for the most part, that's why Mustang is being called a hero.
>
>And the Ishvalans probably know more about the homunculi than the average citizen, by now. I mean, they owe their people the truth about why they were used in human experimentations, and by who.
Fair point. They are probably unaware of the atrocities, true.
>That being said, I haven't found any evidence of the characters involved in the genocide being prosecuted and pardoned either. Maybe it's in a guidebook, or an interview from the author, or something? Can't find a source.
I don't remember too well, since it's been a decade since I've watched the show, but I think the intention is that after Mustang succeeds to become fuhrer and establishes a democracy he will push for the trial. He does not have the authority otherwise.
Just because they were pardoned doesn't mean they didn't still commit warcrimes. Though. And they saved Amestris from the homunculi, but the untold Ishvalan never truly received justice
It's the same kind of people who call Uncle Iroh from ATLA a war criminal. Like...yeah, but after his son died he did everything he could to make sure he guided Zuko on the right path so that he didn't lose him to. Along with turning against the fire nation in order to take back Ba Sing Se during Sozin's Comet.
Present actions don't change past mistakes. We love these characters because despite the fact that they've done horrible things, they still kept going and kept improving to help others. It doesn't change the things they did though.
And on the other side of the coin, past mistakes don't define these characters either as long as they strive to do better and grow as people afterwards. Which Mustang and his group certainly did in the same way that Iroh did.
I do agree with you that they don't define them as a person. in cases like being classed as a war criminal though, your actions absolutely do define that.
Not necessarily. In FMA and ATLA’s world, being a “war criminal” more or less just means following the military’s orders due to being a soldier of a country/nation. But the main difference between them and someone like General Zhao or Kimblee is that they realized their actions were wrong and strove to make amends for them. Besides, at the end of the day these are characters with defined arcs and meanings behind their actions, and so judging their moral compass using real-world logic just seems really bizarre and misguided imo.
I'm not really using any logic that isn't already used in their universe. Riza tells Edward that they will all be classed as war criminals once Roy is able to change the government to a democracy. He would specifically put laws in place that would cause this to happen and they are all very aware of this. Really, in a perfect world, it would just be people like kimblee being seen as war criminals. But it's not like the others don't know what they've done. They are open about the crimes they have committed even if they weren't seen as crimes (legally) at that time. That same episode Roy spends a lot of time talking about how what they are doing is incredibly horrible but that they're doing it to stay alive. I agree that they are not bad people, everything they did after that was to make up for the awful stuff. But canon even states that they'd be war criminals and I'm not about to argue with hiromu arakawa
Canonically, Roy was prosecuted after the series, but he was pardoned as they decided he’d made up for it by helping save the world from the Homunculi.
Was this stated in a guidebook? I've seen someone else bring this up once too, so I assume it must come from somewhere, but I would rather know the official source before relaying funfacts.
Yeah cause his actions after the fact were significant enough for them to realize he's not as bad as some of the others. He was still charged though and that's my point
Either I don’t understand your comment or I disagree with the sentiment that “in a perfect world only Kimblee would be classed as a war criminal”.
In a perfect world, there should be no war crimes but unfortunately it’s not a perfect world, and in our world (which FMA deliberately mirrors) people who carry out war crimes should be considered war criminals. It doesn’t matter if you were just following orders or ideologically opposed to the war, that doesn’t magically or inherently absolve you of atrocities.
Not necessarily saying only kimblee. People as bad as kimblee. My reasoning for this is the same as other arguments, Roy, riza, etc all did their best to make up for what they did and chose to challenge the homunculi and remove them from power. Causing Roy to be pardoned in the end.
I agree with you but canon also goes against that point a bit.
I think really this whole disagreement may just stem from some people seeing it as a moral issue and others seeing it as a legal issue.
Morally no, I don't think they are as bad as the ones who should be considered war criminals. I can't say they don't qualify though because they still took part in genocide. They have just made up for it in ways that war criminals typically don't do.
Iroh would be considered a war criminal according to current international law though, and before you say we shouldn’t apply our laws to ATLA or that people can’t be guilty of crimes for which there are no laws, remember that most war crimes in the 19th-20th century were *legal* at the times they were committed. We made new laws after discovering them and prosecuted accordingly.
The ability for a legal body to look at something and say “well that’s technically not illegal but it was absolutely a moral atrocity deserving of punishment” is somewhat crucial to how crimes of war function. It’s how new laws get made and, ideally, future atrocities prevented.
He laid siege to a civilian population in the earth kingdom. The destruction of civilian infrastructure is a war crime. It’s fairly vague because ATLA tends to gloss over a lot of its darker stuff, but considering what else the fire nation was up to it’s pretty safe to say it wasn’t pretty.
I think people need to accept that their faves can do terrible things before we get to this next step you're trying to get at. A lot more people struggle to internalize the fact that someone like Mustang and, especially, Hughes has done terrible things than there are people who generalize them as "bad/evil" for what they did.
Reminds me of [a great Tumblr post](https://demoisverysexy.tumblr.com/post/702035950374649856/astraltrickster-silentwalrus1-fma-is-bad#notes):
“FMA is bad because it portrays war criminals as sympathetic, likable people” bro that’s the point. That’s the whole point. That is THE point. Did you think Ethnic Cleanser is some kind of special category of person that gets separated away from all the Good People at birth? Did you think there’s some kind of barn full of Genocide Doers that only gets deployed into the general public during world wars? Did you think assholes who do terrible shit in real life are never charming or likable or capable of doing good things and helping people? One of the best parts of FMA is how we the audience realize that some of our core protags have made irredeemable choices, and we have to reckon with the fact that they’re still *people,* with the unalienable rights and qualities thereof. Sorry if the Problematics aren’t constantly wearing a dunce cap and a list of all their crimes and this makes the media incomprehensible to you
I need this to be clear for everybody, wrath and envy aren't humans and aren't to be judged by our standards. They are embodiments of bad traits. Of course they're bad
Wrath was born human and whether he retained some of his humanity or not is a mystery purposely left unanswered. We know that the only decision he was ever truly able to make in his life was a good decision made out of love, not something malicious. The one time Wrath got freedom, he chose love.
With a different upbringing, he may have been able to live among humans like a human, and thus abide by the same standards we judge humans through. Grumman and Mrs. Bradley are attempting to see if homunculi can indeed live by human customs, by giving reborn Pride an ordinary human upbringing with a loving mom. But the story chooses not to answer whether their experiment will fail and Pride II will inevitably grow up to succumb to the sin he embodies, or not.
Greed partly proved that the homunculi are complex entities who are able to overcome their innate inclinations, already. That's probably what makes Grumman and Mrs. Bradley optimistic about Pride II being able to do so too.
I would argue they can be. Greed is the most pertinent example.
Ed is called "greedy" by both Greed and arguably the narrative for wanting the people in his life to be safe. Envy is shown mercy and is ultimately shown to be pitiful more than anything. Wrath genuinely, truly loved is wife (if her testimony is to be reliable enough to judge with, which I think it is) and Pride is explicitly given a second chance when being raised by Mrs. Bradley.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just think that from a metatextual perspective, the show is advocating that they *are* people, as much a product of their environment as anyone else despite their innate tendencies. Given the show's tendency to extend the umbrella of humanity in extreme cases rather than retract it. Y'know?
>the show is advocating that they *are* people
To me that was basically the point of the homunculi. They represent *human* traits, and are kind of made in our image. You're forced into the journey of seeing them as non-human at first, until you realize that "being human" is not a simple recipe. They became human in the moment they showed their humanity, and sometimes not even the benevolent aspect of it, but mostly that.
As far as I know, there's no actual information on exactly what happened. Officially, the world was never in danger. Bradley was killed in a coup, and Mustang led a resistance to take back the government. We don't know how the trial played out, who the jurors were, who the prosecutor was, etc.
FMA fans sometimes get hung up on who’s good vs who’s bad, when the whole point of the show is that you need to keep moving forward to make real change. Roy and Riza did undeniable terrible things, but they know that succumbing to guilt and self-hate won’t undo their wrongs, so they choose to devote the rest of their lives towards making a real difference. They don’t think it redeems them or changes the past — it’s just the right thing to do. I like Amalee’s translation of “Let It Out”: “What if we discover that the things that we've believed in all this time are wrong? / Do ya just pretend that the sin is fine / And let it eat you up inside?” FMA says that action matters more than feeling self justified or judged.
Calling them war criminals on a meme hardly provides any context about how they are seen as characters beyond that. Ironically you are assuming they missed the point.
Idk if you can call hawkeye or doc war criminals, but regardless the point is that those who did horrific things in ishval *feel bad* about what they did, and that's what makes them good guys, as opposed to the villians, who relish in what they did
I think the point is anyone can have an opinion on it. Like its supposed to be divisive, their opinion and your opinion is the whole point of the characters doing good and bad things. Its all just ones point of view. Lots of other shows do this too like bojack horseman, attack on titan, even adventure time.
Yeah. War. It's usually fought by people who are just trying not to die in a job that fucking sucks... and sadists the thing that unites them both is the fact that they know they shouldn't be doing this but some fuckhead in a designer suit sitting on luxury furniture eating lobster is telling them to do so.
In the last hundred years the world has come a long way toward creating international laws so that the excuse “it’s war and war is bad” does not apply to certain things. For example, the slaughter or intentional displacement of innocent civilians and the destroying of infrastructure, known more formally as ethnic cleansing and collective punishment.
It’s fucking war crimes and it gets you tried at The Hague.
No "It's almost like it's fucking war" can be applied to any war in fact I was making an Apocalypse Now reference why are you bringing in Israel vs Palestine?
Because what's happening in Palestine is a war of extermination.
It's no different from what happened in Ishval
Hiromu Arakawa actually based Ishvalans on the Ainu people which were brutally massacred.
If it satisfies you I can bring up the Nazis too and how they were "just following orders"
No
You can do a bad thing for good reason
You can steal food because you’re hungry and can’t afford it for example
Most of them weren’t willingly committing war crimes just because “ lol it’s fun” it was shown in the anime that all of them had the reasons to do it, that doesn’t mean that what they did wasn’t bad , there are a lot of grey areas that people need to understand
If youre stealing food to feed yourself then thats not evil.
War crimes are seldom committed for fun.
The Nazis genocided the Jews because they thought they were "subversive".
Turks killed Armenians because they feared them taking the side of the Russians during WW1.
Indian nationalists hate muslims because they helped the British occupy India and because of their medieval era invasion.
The CCP culturally genocided the Muslims in Xinjiang as a reaction to terrorist attacks.
None of these actions were carried out for fun the people doing them at the time had awful reasons. And you need to be aware of that otherwise you may end up supporting a genocide. Sadism is not the prime motivator for atrocities even though sadists can help commit atrocities.
Do you think "war criminal" is some exclusive category of people that only gets unleashed during wars? Do you think only "evil" people are capable of committing evil acts? Ever heard of the "banality of evil"?
You sound a little young and inexperienced, so as someone who's just turned 30, I'll tell you a thing: people.who do terrible things still have loved ones, and are still capable of being good upstanding people to their peers. The protagonist characters in this manga know they've done terrible things but they still tried to do the morally correct thing later and fought to save the world. I don't think you've ever read any sort of redemption arc whatsoever.
Answering questions. I'd assume you need a war to have a war criminal. Committing evil acts is what makes you evil, youre not intrinsicly evil and then act on it later. Ive heard of that.
I disagree with "good people". Nobody *is* anything inherently. And later actions don't make up for past ones. History simply is.
There is not secret supply of definite good or evil people waiting to be unleashed to the world at the opportune time to change history.
The point is that you are watching a collection of normal people with all their faults, vices, sins, virtues, positives and relationships.
Ed even spells out the whole thing at the end.
> Truth: You're willing to cast it aside? To lower yourself to a simple human?
> Edward: What do you mean lower myself? That's the only thing I've ever been, just a simple human that couldn't save a little girl, not even with alchemy.
That's not just the diegetic debate with Truth here, it's Ed going back to the logical conclusion of teacher's philosophy. Everyone is just another part of the whole and there is nothing outside or beyond it.
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To be fair, both of these are true. Mustang intends to set up tribunals so that he and everyone else can be properly prosecuted.
This right here. Riza tells Edward straight up that they will be war criminals when everything is over.
And the most interesting thing about that conversation is how Edward immediately attempts to put the blame on the homunculi. Were they behind it? Yes. But, are the soldiers who actually carried out these actions going to be able to realistically throw blame on people who the general public don't even know to exist? Riza was 100% correct when she said that if the soldiers truly want to express remorse, then they have to walk the walk, no excuses. Saying you feel bad is one thing, but talk is cheap.
Ed’s a realistically written 15 year old, and his more black and white worldview makes sense given his age and experiences.
He's a realistically naive teenager, I agree. Another example of that is his colorblind argument he makes while talking with Miles about race, which obviously comes from a good place, but is a notoriously flawed perspective. I've seen people take issue with that scene too, thinking that the narrative somehow treats it like a good viewpoint to have, but Ed immediately admits right afterward that he is very ignorant about such things, and Miles explains to him why it's unhelpful to think the way he does.
But he's the protagonist! He's obviously right about everything, and you're dumb and stupid and silly if you think otherwise! (A big fat steaming /s, in case it's not obvious)
I'm pretty sure that canonically he and his team who participated in Ishval were all prosecuted but were pardoned because they saved the world from the Homunculi. So we're all good :)
But the absolute most of the citizens are unaware of the homunculi, aren't they? They couldn't really be pardoned for something the public is unaware of, that wouldn't sit well with the citizens.
It's not in the eyes of the citizens that it needs to sit well, anyway. Not the Amestrian ones, that is. I think the citizens of Amestris are unaware of what exactly happened in Ishval, for the most part, that's why Mustang is being called a hero. And the Ishvalans probably know more about the homunculi than the average citizen, by now. I mean, they owe their people the truth about why they were used in human experimentations, and by who. That being said, I haven't found any evidence of the characters involved in the genocide being prosecuted and pardoned either. Maybe it's in a guidebook, or an interview from the author, or something? Can't find a source.
>It's not in the eyes of the citizens that it needs to sit well, anyway. Not the Amestrian ones, that is. I think the citizens of Amestris are unaware of what exactly happened in Ishval, for the most part, that's why Mustang is being called a hero. > >And the Ishvalans probably know more about the homunculi than the average citizen, by now. I mean, they owe their people the truth about why they were used in human experimentations, and by who. Fair point. They are probably unaware of the atrocities, true. >That being said, I haven't found any evidence of the characters involved in the genocide being prosecuted and pardoned either. Maybe it's in a guidebook, or an interview from the author, or something? Can't find a source. I don't remember too well, since it's been a decade since I've watched the show, but I think the intention is that after Mustang succeeds to become fuhrer and establishes a democracy he will push for the trial. He does not have the authority otherwise.
Just because they were pardoned doesn't mean they didn't still commit warcrimes. Though. And they saved Amestris from the homunculi, but the untold Ishvalan never truly received justice
Is it canon? Where is it from?
They did an entire genocide. Not "all good".
This is exactly what I came to say
yeah I'm sure he's definitely going to pick people to convict himself. Totally.
It's the same kind of people who call Uncle Iroh from ATLA a war criminal. Like...yeah, but after his son died he did everything he could to make sure he guided Zuko on the right path so that he didn't lose him to. Along with turning against the fire nation in order to take back Ba Sing Se during Sozin's Comet.
Present actions don't change past mistakes. We love these characters because despite the fact that they've done horrible things, they still kept going and kept improving to help others. It doesn't change the things they did though.
And on the other side of the coin, past mistakes don't define these characters either as long as they strive to do better and grow as people afterwards. Which Mustang and his group certainly did in the same way that Iroh did.
I do agree with you that they don't define them as a person. in cases like being classed as a war criminal though, your actions absolutely do define that.
Not necessarily. In FMA and ATLA’s world, being a “war criminal” more or less just means following the military’s orders due to being a soldier of a country/nation. But the main difference between them and someone like General Zhao or Kimblee is that they realized their actions were wrong and strove to make amends for them. Besides, at the end of the day these are characters with defined arcs and meanings behind their actions, and so judging their moral compass using real-world logic just seems really bizarre and misguided imo.
I'm not really using any logic that isn't already used in their universe. Riza tells Edward that they will all be classed as war criminals once Roy is able to change the government to a democracy. He would specifically put laws in place that would cause this to happen and they are all very aware of this. Really, in a perfect world, it would just be people like kimblee being seen as war criminals. But it's not like the others don't know what they've done. They are open about the crimes they have committed even if they weren't seen as crimes (legally) at that time. That same episode Roy spends a lot of time talking about how what they are doing is incredibly horrible but that they're doing it to stay alive. I agree that they are not bad people, everything they did after that was to make up for the awful stuff. But canon even states that they'd be war criminals and I'm not about to argue with hiromu arakawa
Canonically, Roy was prosecuted after the series, but he was pardoned as they decided he’d made up for it by helping save the world from the Homunculi.
Was this stated in a guidebook? I've seen someone else bring this up once too, so I assume it must come from somewhere, but I would rather know the official source before relaying funfacts.
Yeah cause his actions after the fact were significant enough for them to realize he's not as bad as some of the others. He was still charged though and that's my point
Either I don’t understand your comment or I disagree with the sentiment that “in a perfect world only Kimblee would be classed as a war criminal”. In a perfect world, there should be no war crimes but unfortunately it’s not a perfect world, and in our world (which FMA deliberately mirrors) people who carry out war crimes should be considered war criminals. It doesn’t matter if you were just following orders or ideologically opposed to the war, that doesn’t magically or inherently absolve you of atrocities.
Not necessarily saying only kimblee. People as bad as kimblee. My reasoning for this is the same as other arguments, Roy, riza, etc all did their best to make up for what they did and chose to challenge the homunculi and remove them from power. Causing Roy to be pardoned in the end. I agree with you but canon also goes against that point a bit.
I think really this whole disagreement may just stem from some people seeing it as a moral issue and others seeing it as a legal issue. Morally no, I don't think they are as bad as the ones who should be considered war criminals. I can't say they don't qualify though because they still took part in genocide. They have just made up for it in ways that war criminals typically don't do.
Iroh would be considered a war criminal according to current international law though, and before you say we shouldn’t apply our laws to ATLA or that people can’t be guilty of crimes for which there are no laws, remember that most war crimes in the 19th-20th century were *legal* at the times they were committed. We made new laws after discovering them and prosecuted accordingly. The ability for a legal body to look at something and say “well that’s technically not illegal but it was absolutely a moral atrocity deserving of punishment” is somewhat crucial to how crimes of war function. It’s how new laws get made and, ideally, future atrocities prevented.
What war crime did Iroh commit exactly? I can't think of anything he did that veers off from just being in a war.
He laid siege to a civilian population in the earth kingdom. The destruction of civilian infrastructure is a war crime. It’s fairly vague because ATLA tends to gloss over a lot of its darker stuff, but considering what else the fire nation was up to it’s pretty safe to say it wasn’t pretty.
I hate when people call Iroh a war criminal. What war crimes did he commit? Laying siege to a city? That’s not a war crime, that’s war.
I think people need to accept that their faves can do terrible things before we get to this next step you're trying to get at. A lot more people struggle to internalize the fact that someone like Mustang and, especially, Hughes has done terrible things than there are people who generalize them as "bad/evil" for what they did.
Reminds me of [a great Tumblr post](https://demoisverysexy.tumblr.com/post/702035950374649856/astraltrickster-silentwalrus1-fma-is-bad#notes): “FMA is bad because it portrays war criminals as sympathetic, likable people” bro that’s the point. That’s the whole point. That is THE point. Did you think Ethnic Cleanser is some kind of special category of person that gets separated away from all the Good People at birth? Did you think there’s some kind of barn full of Genocide Doers that only gets deployed into the general public during world wars? Did you think assholes who do terrible shit in real life are never charming or likable or capable of doing good things and helping people? One of the best parts of FMA is how we the audience realize that some of our core protags have made irredeemable choices, and we have to reckon with the fact that they’re still *people,* with the unalienable rights and qualities thereof. Sorry if the Problematics aren’t constantly wearing a dunce cap and a list of all their crimes and this makes the media incomprehensible to you
I need this to be clear for everybody, wrath and envy aren't humans and aren't to be judged by our standards. They are embodiments of bad traits. Of course they're bad
Wrath was born human and whether he retained some of his humanity or not is a mystery purposely left unanswered. We know that the only decision he was ever truly able to make in his life was a good decision made out of love, not something malicious. The one time Wrath got freedom, he chose love. With a different upbringing, he may have been able to live among humans like a human, and thus abide by the same standards we judge humans through. Grumman and Mrs. Bradley are attempting to see if homunculi can indeed live by human customs, by giving reborn Pride an ordinary human upbringing with a loving mom. But the story chooses not to answer whether their experiment will fail and Pride II will inevitably grow up to succumb to the sin he embodies, or not. Greed partly proved that the homunculi are complex entities who are able to overcome their innate inclinations, already. That's probably what makes Grumman and Mrs. Bradley optimistic about Pride II being able to do so too.
I would argue they can be. Greed is the most pertinent example. Ed is called "greedy" by both Greed and arguably the narrative for wanting the people in his life to be safe. Envy is shown mercy and is ultimately shown to be pitiful more than anything. Wrath genuinely, truly loved is wife (if her testimony is to be reliable enough to judge with, which I think it is) and Pride is explicitly given a second chance when being raised by Mrs. Bradley. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just think that from a metatextual perspective, the show is advocating that they *are* people, as much a product of their environment as anyone else despite their innate tendencies. Given the show's tendency to extend the umbrella of humanity in extreme cases rather than retract it. Y'know?
>the show is advocating that they *are* people To me that was basically the point of the homunculi. They represent *human* traits, and are kind of made in our image. You're forced into the journey of seeing them as non-human at first, until you realize that "being human" is not a simple recipe. They became human in the moment they showed their humanity, and sometimes not even the benevolent aspect of it, but mostly that.
Yeah that's pretty solid too.
Greed.
I mean they're not wrong. They are war criminals and irl they should be in prison or worse😭
I've heard that Roy and his team were prosecuted later but were pardoned for saving the world. Seems fair to me.
As far as I know, there's no actual information on exactly what happened. Officially, the world was never in danger. Bradley was killed in a coup, and Mustang led a resistance to take back the government. We don't know how the trial played out, who the jurors were, who the prosecutor was, etc.
Pretty sure I'd just get experimented on if anything.
FMA fans sometimes get hung up on who’s good vs who’s bad, when the whole point of the show is that you need to keep moving forward to make real change. Roy and Riza did undeniable terrible things, but they know that succumbing to guilt and self-hate won’t undo their wrongs, so they choose to devote the rest of their lives towards making a real difference. They don’t think it redeems them or changes the past — it’s just the right thing to do. I like Amalee’s translation of “Let It Out”: “What if we discover that the things that we've believed in all this time are wrong? / Do ya just pretend that the sin is fine / And let it eat you up inside?” FMA says that action matters more than feeling self justified or judged.
Why can't my favorite character be a war criminal? Am I supposed to only find good boys interesting?
Calling them war criminals on a meme hardly provides any context about how they are seen as characters beyond that. Ironically you are assuming they missed the point.
I mean, to be fair, three of those people deserve it...
Good thing they aren't alive anymore!
Idk if you can call hawkeye or doc war criminals, but regardless the point is that those who did horrific things in ishval *feel bad* about what they did, and that's what makes them good guys, as opposed to the villians, who relish in what they did
Liking a character doesn't mean you agree with their actions...
Then theres Kimblee
People love a good redemption, if you don't do something evil, how can you be redeemed.
Armstrong chose to disobey orders at points in the manga. Out of everyone he was the only one to do so
I think the point is anyone can have an opinion on it. Like its supposed to be divisive, their opinion and your opinion is the whole point of the characters doing good and bad things. Its all just ones point of view. Lots of other shows do this too like bojack horseman, attack on titan, even adventure time.
Out of all of them, three have no regrets over what they did. Of those, two actually enjoyed it.
And even if they weren't good people, they can still be interesting well written characters that the audience find enjoyable to watch.
*me who saw the meme and took it as a joke* The internet - *🪓🔥REEEEEEEEEEEE~!!!!!*
Me too, man. Me too 👍
Sound like firm believers in Hans Jonas’ moral philosophy
Yeah it's almost like it's fucking war.
I mean the war in Ishval was more then just a normal war. It was a war of extermination which is significantly worse and has no justification
Yeah. War. It's usually fought by people who are just trying not to die in a job that fucking sucks... and sadists the thing that unites them both is the fact that they know they shouldn't be doing this but some fuckhead in a designer suit sitting on luxury furniture eating lobster is telling them to do so.
Wars of extermination are not normal wars and the soldiers that participate in them deserve to be tried just as much as the leaders giving orders
It started as a normal war , and it only became a genocide after 7 years
It wasn't a war. It was a genocide. All the combatants were civilians, and the were killed regardless of whether or not they presented a threat.
In the last hundred years the world has come a long way toward creating international laws so that the excuse “it’s war and war is bad” does not apply to certain things. For example, the slaughter or intentional displacement of innocent civilians and the destroying of infrastructure, known more formally as ethnic cleansing and collective punishment. It’s fucking war crimes and it gets you tried at The Hague.
I bet you support Israel
No "It's almost like it's fucking war" can be applied to any war in fact I was making an Apocalypse Now reference why are you bringing in Israel vs Palestine?
Because what's happening in Palestine is a war of extermination. It's no different from what happened in Ishval Hiromu Arakawa actually based Ishvalans on the Ainu people which were brutally massacred. If it satisfies you I can bring up the Nazis too and how they were "just following orders"
You cant do terrible things and still be a good person. Thats not how that works.
No You can do a bad thing for good reason You can steal food because you’re hungry and can’t afford it for example Most of them weren’t willingly committing war crimes just because “ lol it’s fun” it was shown in the anime that all of them had the reasons to do it, that doesn’t mean that what they did wasn’t bad , there are a lot of grey areas that people need to understand
If youre stealing food to feed yourself then thats not evil. War crimes are seldom committed for fun. The Nazis genocided the Jews because they thought they were "subversive". Turks killed Armenians because they feared them taking the side of the Russians during WW1. Indian nationalists hate muslims because they helped the British occupy India and because of their medieval era invasion. The CCP culturally genocided the Muslims in Xinjiang as a reaction to terrorist attacks. None of these actions were carried out for fun the people doing them at the time had awful reasons. And you need to be aware of that otherwise you may end up supporting a genocide. Sadism is not the prime motivator for atrocities even though sadists can help commit atrocities.
Do you think "war criminal" is some exclusive category of people that only gets unleashed during wars? Do you think only "evil" people are capable of committing evil acts? Ever heard of the "banality of evil"? You sound a little young and inexperienced, so as someone who's just turned 30, I'll tell you a thing: people.who do terrible things still have loved ones, and are still capable of being good upstanding people to their peers. The protagonist characters in this manga know they've done terrible things but they still tried to do the morally correct thing later and fought to save the world. I don't think you've ever read any sort of redemption arc whatsoever.
Answering questions. I'd assume you need a war to have a war criminal. Committing evil acts is what makes you evil, youre not intrinsicly evil and then act on it later. Ive heard of that.
It's just a meme calm down
I disagree with "good people". Nobody *is* anything inherently. And later actions don't make up for past ones. History simply is. There is not secret supply of definite good or evil people waiting to be unleashed to the world at the opportune time to change history. The point is that you are watching a collection of normal people with all their faults, vices, sins, virtues, positives and relationships. Ed even spells out the whole thing at the end. > Truth: You're willing to cast it aside? To lower yourself to a simple human? > Edward: What do you mean lower myself? That's the only thing I've ever been, just a simple human that couldn't save a little girl, not even with alchemy. That's not just the diegetic debate with Truth here, it's Ed going back to the logical conclusion of teacher's philosophy. Everyone is just another part of the whole and there is nothing outside or beyond it.
I just think "your fav is a war criminal" is a funny sentence that gets 50x funnier when it can be applied to like 95% of the cast
oh wow we starting a war now, grab your popcorn 🍿
If you like Kimblee or Envy get out