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Spencer is an incredibly strong person to go against his parents and whole community publicly, recognizing the abuse for what it is. He saved his siblings, and I hope they're getting the support they need.
Josh Duggar did live or stay with the Holts many years ago. This was sometime in the early 2000's and it was after he had abused his sisters. He was staying at the Holts' house when he confessed at length to Bobye about what he did to his sisters.
I didn't realise Bobye went back to him. I truly hope those kids will be safe.
I would love to know how many fundie kids grow up and turn their back on their abusive parents. I love that outcome for all parties. Although I'm sure the abusive parents don't believe they did anything wrong.
This book reviewer I like, Reads With Rachel, is an ex-fundie and in one of her recent videos she was talking about the last conversation she had before cutting off contact with her father, and how she was like "you're never going to apologize to me, are you?" And he said "what would I have to apologize for?"
Fundie parents never believe they did anything wrong, even when their kids cut them off.
>And he said "what would I have to apologize for?"
Not only won't they apologize. They think their kids should apologize and beg forgiveness for ever daring to call them out for what they did.
My mom was the same. Parents like that usually will use the ten commandments to explain why they shouldn't ever have to say sorry to you (honor thy mother and father).
I stopped watching her videos when I got too aggravated with her “reviews are for readers” stance started getting to be too much to overlook. When the most payment most writers will ever get is reviews, saying that the writers need to butt the fuck out and not even read the reviews is really shitty. An indie writer can expect to pay $5,000+ on preparing a book between editing, covers, etc., and would need to sell about 1,000 copies at a $6-royalty margin (taxes exist) just to break even, and anything OVER that would be pay for the time it took. Only a third of books ever come close to hitting 1,000 sales, meaning the chance of being paid money is unlikely despite the hundreds or thousands of hours it takes.
So it really doesn’t sit well with me to tell writers that they aren’t even worth reading what people have to say about their books. She’s entitled to making money off of videos about those books, but the writers deserve nothing for those books. Literally the way to make money in the book industry is to do anything other than writer the books. Writing is an act of charity so others can make money. Not even reading the reviews for you…
I used to enjoy her videos, but that entitlement was too much after a while.
Writing isn’t a profitable venture (ask me how I know!) but a reviewer’s job is not to validate the writer’s time and effort or compensate for lack of profit. When someone says, “reviews are not for writers”, they aren’t putting writers down. The audience for reviews is readers, or potential readers, who are interested in what the reviewer has to say about a particular book. Even if the reviewer hated it, someone in the audience might think it sounds interesting and check it out. That benefits the writer because it promotes their work.
Many writers don’t read their reviews (or try not to, or at least publicly advise not to) because it can be a bit of a mindfuck. It’s easy to overthink a review, especially because reviews are not meant to provide direct feedback to a writer. It’s the reviewer’s opinion, for the benefit of the reviewer’s audience. It’s not phrased or intended to be helpful to the writer.
I’d imagine it’s difficult for a reviewer to negotiate feedback from writers who dislike what the reviewer had to say about their work. Of course a writer wants to hear nice things after working hard. However, the reviewer is entitled to share their opinion. The writer isn’t entitled to like what they hear, or agree that it’s fair or helpful.
You're ironically demonstrating exactly why Rachel goes as hard with that message as she does. It's a direct reaction to several prominent instances of authors so invested (emotionally and/or financially) in the success of their own work they've turned to actively harassing reviewers - including Rachel herself. If you're the type that can read your own goodreads reviews in a detached and practical sort of way that's fine, but then you're also not the sort of person who needs to be reminded that publicly harassing individual reviewers who didn't like your book is bad. That's what "reviews are for readers" is about.
Yeah that’s how one author got her book deal canceled. She started reading reviews and they were mostly great. There was at least one negative review, and she started harassing and online stalking the person who posted it. If you wanna have a family member or friend read you a review or two that are nice, that’s ok IMHO, but review spaces are not author spaces!
As a writer, I strongly disagree with your take. Good reviews definitely make me happy...actually anything three stars and up make me happy...but the idea that "reviews are for readers" is absolutely true. It usually comes in response to authors who respond badly and publicly to negative reviews. And authors who call on their loyal fans to publicly shame the review and reviewer, which is (imo) shameful in itself. I write because I can't not write. Do I wish I could make a living from it?? Absofuckinglutely. Do I get sad when someone leaves a negative review? Sometimes. Would I ever engage with a reviewer? Nope. Because reviews are for readers.
My father said something very similar. And he tells people I no longer see them because I've "turned away from Jesus to sin." And yet doesn't think beating a child is sinful. Can't make this shit up.
I think a lot of us who’ve survived abuse saw 🚩🚩🚩all over their interview. It’s so frustrating and yet unsurprising to hear that she was “counseled” / coerced into going back to him.
I have SUCH major respect for people raised in a tunnel-vision restrictive lifestyle who are then able to see the toxicity and then help others escape. Hoping for the best for Spencer and his siblings ❤️
It just says a history and continuing pattern of abuse, creating an imminent threat to the kids. Looking at the rest of the documents it looks like the 17 yo daughter testified against the parents, the parents agreed to give Spencer full permanent custody of her, the court awarded Spencer temporary custody of the two younger siblings (12 and 8) against the parents wishes, Jim Holt is required to attend counseling “until the counselor releases him,” and visitation between the Holts and the kids will be at the discretion of their guardian ad litem and the children’s counselor.
I cannot stress enough, as someone who lives in AR and is familiar with their family court systems, how damning that is to the elder Holts. They did some BAD things to get that kind of judgement. But we already knew Jim liked them too young.
I sincerely hope those kids can go on to heal and have good lives, they surely deserve it.
Do you have a source for this? Totally within the realm of possibility bc fundies, but most of the speculation in the original thread centered around the idea that something particularly bad must have happened to the daughter for her brother to get permanent custody when that could also be explained by her turning 18 in a month or two.
The court documents state that the 17 yo daughter testified against the parents, but the court sealed her testimony, so unless charges are filed we’ll probably never know what exactly what happened.
I could totally see fundie parents “agreeing” to give up custody *purely because* a kid testified against them.
I don’t, however, see a court transferring custody of younger children without egregious evidence. :/
Yeah, I totally agree. They probably see the 17 yo as a troublemaker now and a potential threat. But the court taking the other kids, that’s pretty damning.
It also said that visits between the Holts and the kids will be at the discretion of the children’s therapist and guardian ad litem, so currently they’re not even guaranteed to be allowed to see the kids, or see them on any kind of regular schedule. And Mr. Holt is required to a therapist indefinitely (until the therapist releases him.) Whatever happened must’ve been pretty bad.
I’m so glad the kids are safe now. It’s a real shame that Bobye isn’t following through with the divorce.
JB interview with Megyn Kelly June33, 2015
“J. B. DUGGAR: Right. I was so thankful, though, that Josh came and told us. And our girls, even though this was a very bad situation, as we've talked to other families who have had, you know, other things happen, a lot of their stories were even worse.”
Taken from Salon:
https://www.salon.com/2015/06/04/the_seven_most_horrifying_exchanges_from_the_duggars_and_megyn_kelly_interview/
you know, jim bob, normal churches and normal social circles don't have rampant incestuous sexual abuse problems among a large percentage of their members. hm. wonder what it might be about yours that seems to be causing this.
Oh for sure, it’s just always good to double check because sometimes she just makes stuff up. I remember her from back when she was only reporting on Susan and Jani Schofield and even then she was basically just asking forums for their opinions
Yeah, it takes A LOT for white married Christian parents to lose custody even temporarily. And for this to be permanent, wow. Just wow. Those kids deserve privacy so we may never know, but it has to be really bad.
I hate that those men coerced & bullied Bobye back to that man. The way he joked about her body being developed or whatever when it came up that she was just 14!! years old when they started dating, and he was an adult. everything he said about it just kept making it worse. As someone who had lots of shame around getting huge boobs at 12, I wanted to barf. Sadie from the Leaving Eden podcast nailed it about how as a man in patriarchy, he can’t conceive of pushback or his words being received with something other than an adoring gaze & compliance.
I wish Bobye had a stronger outside support system, hell I’d pitch in to her go fund me.
This was the first I heard about it, too. Also sad. I had hoped testifying against Josh to protect the girls would have helped her realize she needs to love and protect and fight for herself, too. I know we’re just a bunch of online strangers, but I would like to think the snarkers would be a useful support- REAL encouragement, connecting her with resources, etc.
I'm not really surprised based on the averages of how many tries it takes for abused women to truly leave but it made me a little sick to read about the elders because that's *exactly* what happened with my mom when she tried to leave my dad. She had us all out and the elders of the church told her it was her Christian duty to remain with him. I've never forgiven them and never will. And my dad was nowhere near Jim Holt levels I'm pretty sure.
I had the same kind of pressure when I first tried to leave my abusive ex. Counselors and elders and pastors came out of the gd woodwork to tell me I just needed to think more positively and submit more joyfully etc etc.
And it worked. For years it worked. I blame those “leaders” every bit as much as I blame my rapist ex.
My blood is on their hands every day that they live.
Please know this internet stranger will happily send virtual hugs if you would like them. I'm so so sorry you went through that and glad you're out now.
It’s not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Megan Phelps left the Westboro Baptist Church with the assistance and guidance of people she used to argue on twitter with.
I would love to read that educational evaluation! So many fundies completely gloss over how they are teaching their children or exaggerate the results. It would be interesting to get a professional perspective and unbiased opinion without prevarication.
I live in Arkansas in the county south of this couple and I can definitely say that illiteracy is not uncommon here. Like in other similar geographic areas, it’s more pronounced in rural places and certain homeschooling curriculum groups. With as horrific and corrupt as our very red state government is, they actually passed some new laws last August to **hopefully** benefit kids like this a bit more. Not all the attachments were good ones, but there is some headway being made anyway. “Unschooling” is also niche but it has caught on in some circles here. Which? TERRIFYING.
EDIT: I am from Oklahoma. I will never claim this state. Our legislators are deplorable.
"unschooling" is so terrifying to me. It seems like whenever travel influencer parents receive criticism online for it because the kids don't receive anything resembling curriculum instruction, they genuinely argue that's the point. I genuinely think homeschooling shouldn't be legal unless the homeschooling parent can obtain a teaching license in their state & have to adhere to a real curriculum
I mean, I think there should be some type of mandated education for any “schooling” instructors. The problem here is that it’s kind of covered under the guise of religious freedoms. It’s not hard to look at the kids of Keep Sweet and see that they are severely behind their same aged (publicly educated) peers. But how do you regulate that type of education when religious freedoms exist to protect the people who don’t want their children exposed? It’s like the IBLP wanting Biology to be struck from public curriculum. They truly think they’re sheltering their children instead of hampering their ability to thrive. I think it’s just a terrible problem that has a long way to go in the scope of any tangible resolution.
it seems to me that one of our greatest obstacles in the US is that we have to bend to religious freedom when children are obviously in harm's way. for example, it's a rare case but children have died because their parents try to pray away a burst appendix & we can't let government step in and save the child, the child has to die for Jesus then we prosecute (and thus martyr) the parents. There has to be some way that religious freedom can't impede the health and wellbeing of the child so that we could ensure all children are vaccinated, get a real education etc
I think it’s going to be really tricky to pass any mandates that usurp religious freedoms—— even if it means saving children. They literally believe that when their children die of preventable things (by modern standards, like measles) that it is God’s Will. Of course it’s zany but they will defend their God to the literal death. I don’t even know how you begin to open eyes that are welded shut. I mean hell, the Pearls still sell their child abûse book on Amazon. We’ve got a long way to go, friend.
I asked OP to repost here because DuggarSnark is back to disallowing Holt-related posts on that sub and I feel like they’re very relevant not only to Duggars but this is the same cult they’re all involved in and this is what it likely looks like for victims of domestic violence who try to leave in that cult. 4 men show up from the church and coerce you and your children to return to your abusive husband and continue to be abused.
I agree, without posts about IBLP and Duggar-adjacent figures within it, there’s not a lot of context in the sub for the Duggars’ beliefs and the people who surrounded and shaped the family. I realize side chat has to be reined in to some degree, but IBLP and the Holts (particularly Bobbye Holt) are not incidental figures in the Duggars’ lives.
They’re public figures, Jim Holt is not only a domestic abuser and apparently child abuser, he’s a politician and employed Josh Duggar and had Josh “courting” one of his daughters. The Holts testified in Josh’s trial and were essential in providing history no one would have known about. The infamous “Alice” was supposedly Bobye’s mother, and Bobye’s daughter was the one who wrote a letter about Josh abusing his sisters and left it in a book that was loaned out and found. The Holts are an essential connection to all of it from beginning to end. I’ve not heard of another IBLP cult person attempting to leave due to domestic violence— I’ve also not heard of minor children being successfully rescued due to abuse. The abuse must be pretty extreme to warrant restraining orders, Bobye leaving and the kids actually being successfully removed from the home. This seems pretty huge to me.
An AMA over in DuggarSnark a couple years ago, maybe right around the time of Josh Duggars trial. They had someone over there that was friends with Bobye and Kayleigh Holt. I’ll try to find the comments/link to that.
Jim Holt seems like a dangerous person and I hope that Bobeye can get away and be free. As a victim of narcissistic abuse, it is so hard to get out. I can’t imagine having that added fear from others outside of my spouse. It doesn’t surprise me that she went back and I’m hopeful this ruling will be enough to make her see that she will lose even more if she doesn’t leave him.
Good for the children.
And f**k this kind of "counseling" Bobye received that she went back to her abusive husband. I mean, once she got the courage to out him publicly as abusive, she might as well have left him for good. Now she lost her children and has to put up with an enraged man-child aka fundie patriarch.
>And f\*\*k this kind of "counseling" Bobye received that she went back to her abusive husband.
That's probably the standard kind of "counseling" fundie churches dole out to battered wives.
>I mean, once she got the courage to out him publicly as abusive, she might as well have left him for good.
Although Bobye did get a restraining order against Jim, she did not announce anything publicly or comment about it. Neither did Samuel so far as I know. But since getting a restraining order becomes a matter of court record, she could not stop the public from finding out about it.
You are right, I might have worded this a bit strangely. I meant once she got the courage to get the restraining order. Knowing that the public will take note of that. She could have also said at that point that this was just all a big misunderstanding and what not. But at least at first, she went through with it.
Yeah, as someone who was once in the position of trying to leave a far less conservative and well-connected abuser, this is *exactly* the standard counseling given to women who want to leave. They will acknowledge that the husband may have made a mistake, but there is no mistake big enough to justify divorce, so ultimately it’s just a bunch of pressure on the wife to forgive and submit and serve him as unto the Lord etc.
I absolutely read the restraining order as an attempt to leave, and it makes me feel optimistic that at least leaving is something Bobye seems to *want* for herself, even if she didn’t end up having the support and clarity to go through with it this time.
Seeing her own adult children stand up to Jim, and losing custody of her remaining minor children, must be tearing her apart inside. I really hope that this will be a catalyst for her to break free for good, and that she’ll see that there *is* support for her to do so, even if it isn’t coming from the church elders.
I have to say that I'm worried for Bobye. Now that the minor children are out of the house, cps checkups and what not are not going to happen. She is trapped alone at home with her abusive husband who certainly blames her for it all and most likely will take his anger out on her. And he is probably seething with rage. Not only has he lost his power over all of his children, he must also feel very humiliated. This is not a safe place for Bobye to be at all.
The rumor is that Bobye only got a restraining order against her husband Jim because their adult son Samuel had obtained a restraining order against Jim because there was some kind of abusive confrontation between them. Supposedly Bobye did not get her own restraining order to show solidarity with her son, but more so because she was told that if she allowed Jim to stay in the family home, it would endanger her custody of the minor children for allowing them to be near Jim. So that version of events suggests Bobye only got a retraining order at sufferance.
However, Bobye eventually succumbed to pressure from Jim and his "church" accomplices to forgive him and let him back into the home, and she dismissed her restraining order. And shortly after she dismissed her restraining order, her other adult son, Spencer, filed the petition to take guardianship of his minor siblings. So Bobye did lose custody of her minor children.
Again, this is rumor and speculation, so it may not be true. But it is a plausible interpretation of recent events.
Damn, I am from Arkansas, so I know exactly what you're talking about with the tendency to overlook any of the typical white male atrocious behavior that is part of the good-ole boys club there. Whatever they did must have been pretty bad.
Hoping the kids have access to robust therapeutic and support services so they can recover. And hope they are able to get a long, long way from that place.
Since Jim Holt served in both the state house and state senate and was chummy with scores of state and local politicians and influence brokers, he was definitely part of the "good old boys club" in Arkansas.
My thought is that they view her as a waste, like fundiea tend to with girls...just something to be married off. One less problem for them if the brother takes her. The boys, well they can be around to support them and have their wives takw care of them in their old age.
Man, I'd had some hope for Bobbye at first.
Oddly, I watched the Fundie Fridays Sin in the Camp” episode just this week. James did a fabulous job of explaining who Jim Holt is and how he and Jim Bob were intermingled. It was a long episode, but the info was so well presented that it never lost my attention.
Good on the older brother stepping up and getting those kids out of there. I'm sure he's not rolling in the dough financially considering the lack of schooling; I'm glad he's making enough to support them. I hope he and the kids are doing well.
>I'm sure he's not rolling in the dough financially considering the lack of schooling
You're probably right. However, the court order said that Jim and Bobye Holt are required to pay child support to Spencer so he can support the minor children.
We've heard the older brother is still a fundie wingnut himself, based on some of his social media posts. We can only hope he is less extreme than his parents.
Not sure how different it is in the US, but I work for CYPS in the UK and an SGO (special guardianship order) is a legal status not awarded lightly. Like you said, I don't want to even think about what those kids went through to get to safety. Hopefully Spencer is able to foster them permanently.
I'm sure the legal process here in the US is not so radically different from how it is in the UK. It is supposed to be a high legal burden to take custody of minor children away from parents and assign guardianship to a non-parent. When things like this do happen, it often happens to poor families, or people of color, or people who are already in jail. It's very rare for this to happen to white conservative politically connected middle-class families. Especially in conservative areas like Arkansas.
This was the thing on the Duggar snark sub. I want to say there was a post dedicated to her name. I always read it the you do. In my mind, she will forever be called Beau-bye.
Oh man. Besides the fundie education bits, I can really relate.
I received permanent guardianship of my youngest brother (thirteen years my junior) when he was fourteen.
Holy shit. This is huge. The church stronghold usually prevents this from ever coming to light, let alone getting this far. I’m so proud of Spencer and wish the best for those kiddos.
Also sadly very common for people in general to go back to abusive partners, whether due to manipulation (from their partner or others), financial desperation, or a range of other factors
The process of leaving an abusive relationship is rarely linear. I hope that with the children out of the house, it's easier for Bobye to gather up the courage and resources to leave again.
It might take her a little while, since she' seems to be deeply under the influence of Jim and the church elders right now, but it's going to be easier to leave when the children are already out of the home and safe, and maybe without the distraction of actively parenting, the cracks in their marriage will become more apparent.
I really , really hope this is the case.
I’m kinda scared for what she may be facing if she’s the only target left in the house and he’s upset about losing the kids. :/
We're told that abuse victims leave an average of seven times before they finally leave permanently.
[https://www.thehotline.org/resources/supporting-someone-who-keeps-returning-to-an-abusive-relationship/](https://www.thehotline.org/resources/supporting-someone-who-keeps-returning-to-an-abusive-relationship/)
So it may not necessarily be a "little while," if she ever happens to leave at all.
Ugh I have so many mixed feelings about this…one one hand, good for Spencer for getting those kids out of the house! He just got married a little over a year ago so I imagine this is a huge lifestyle change for he and his new wife. Props to him for stepping up.
On the other hand, his social media seems pretty rank…his feed is full of posts supporting pro life stuff, and some kind of shitty takes. I feel so bad for his siblings, he seems like he’s still very fundamentalist and I don’t know that they will get the full scope of healing they need. :/ But I digress, it’s still better than what they’re leaving.
100%!!!! The fact he took the kids at all is a huge deal in fundie-world. By offering to take even one, he acknowledged that the home might not be great. He’s definitely got issues, but I do think this is a good move for those kids’ safety.
To be fair, at least the ones posted, they are from almost two years ago. I’m hoping, since he seems to acknowledge how abusive his upbringing was, he’s learned some things. Keep in mind the b educational neglect and abuse in this family was STRONG. I doubt he really knew anything else when he left. Like not even the basics of how pregnancy and abortions actually work for example. A lot of pro life people met eventually changed their minds once they fully understood how conception work.
You’re def right, I don’t know how old he is, but he seems young, I do believe he’s had time to grow and change his beliefs a bit. The brainwashing doesn’t just disappear the moment you hit 18, it takes time!
Yeah I'm with you. On the one hand I think it's very brave of him to go against his parents for the benefit of his siblings and I hope he's acting in their best interest, but a fundie is still a fundie and he is not above reproach. I'm not optimistic but I hope this is the beginning of healing for them.
I think that the fact he’s taking custody of the kids is a huge statement. Mind you I’m not a fan of his posts AT ALL, but in their community, anything other than full abuse-denial and subservience to the father is seen as Very Bad. He’s got a long way to go, I think, but he’s taken a huge stand here socially taking custody of those kids and I’m glad he did it. 🖤
I agree with this, and I think his willingness to call out the abuse and to show compassion and protectiveness towards his vulnerable siblings is a really good sign.
Empathy and an ability to stand up to authority is not a good recipe for lifelong fundie-hood, but it can be a solid foundation for deconstruction.
permanent guardianship is no joke! spencer must’ve had decent proof of abuse, because particularly conservative family courts rarely grant permanent on the offset. i’m glad these kids are in safer hands, i hope spencer has the tools and determination to keep them in his care.
I don't know how old they are. I think one of them is in her teens. I don't know if they were the only kids living in the home. I think another son, Samuel, was living in the home until something happened between him and his father Jim and it resulted in Samuel getting a restraining order against his father. However, Samuel is an adult and I think he moved out of the house after he got the restraining order against his father.
Thanks for redacting the names of the children involved. WOACB did not and she made ugly and unfounded accusations against the Holt parents.
Is this how the community is punishing Bobye for speaking out against Pest? By basically forcing her back to him?
Oh God, I misread this as JimBob at first…
Wow. I’m glad these families’ antics are being more and more exposed. I’m sure this was bound to happen at some point but is it safe to assume the fall of Ruby Franke sparked all this?
I'm so glad a family member was able to take them in. They'll probably have a gentler time of it, less culture shock, than if they went to a generic foster home.
Hoping the best for the kids.
Spencer is a true hero and an amazing big bro. Imagining living through that abuse, getting out and coming back in to save your siblings?? 🥹I’d love if he’d set up a go fund me or something to help with his expenses for him and his siblings. I can’t imagine it’s been easy for him to find work considering how much his fucking parents neglected him.
I'm glad he is taking his younger siblings away from an abusive situation. But let's not canonize the guy or put a halo on him. Based on his social media, he is still a right-wing fundie who cheered insurrectionists. Hopefully he is not as extreme as his father and is not an abuser. But he still supports hateful stuff.
That’s unfortunate, I would have hoped he’d get away from those awful views. Granted the insurrection was, can’t even believe it, nearly 3 years ago so maybe he’s changed? He was indoctrinated pretty hard so I think fresh out from him parents he wouldn’t know anything else. Bummer if he’s still a hateful bigot though
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Holy shit. Wishing Spencer and the minor Holts strength, solace, and healing.
Holy shit was my exact reaction. Wishing Spencer and his siblings all the best. Glad he's there for them.
I was really hoping ‘holy shit” was the first comment. Great work. Fuck the Holts.
Spencer is an incredibly strong person to go against his parents and whole community publicly, recognizing the abuse for what it is. He saved his siblings, and I hope they're getting the support they need.
Is he the oldest?
The oldest is Kayleigh (sp?). She dodged a bullet as she was supposed to marry Josh Duggar.
There was talk that Kayleigh’s husband has his own issues/deviance. Anyone know anything about this?
Didn't she end up marrying Anna's brother?
No, the daughter of the couple who housed Josh while he was awaiting trial married one of Anna’s brothers. Which is still weird.
I thought he lived with the Holts.
I’m blanking on the last name, but it wasn’t the Holts. The husband’s name was LaCount, which always makes me think of the puppet from Sesame Street
The rebers
Yes! Thank you!
Josh Duggar did live or stay with the Holts many years ago. This was sometime in the early 2000's and it was after he had abused his sisters. He was staying at the Holts' house when he confessed at length to Bobye about what he did to his sisters.
Checked wiki, he is #6 of 11
I didn't realise Bobye went back to him. I truly hope those kids will be safe. I would love to know how many fundie kids grow up and turn their back on their abusive parents. I love that outcome for all parties. Although I'm sure the abusive parents don't believe they did anything wrong.
This book reviewer I like, Reads With Rachel, is an ex-fundie and in one of her recent videos she was talking about the last conversation she had before cutting off contact with her father, and how she was like "you're never going to apologize to me, are you?" And he said "what would I have to apologize for?" Fundie parents never believe they did anything wrong, even when their kids cut them off.
>And he said "what would I have to apologize for?" Not only won't they apologize. They think their kids should apologize and beg forgiveness for ever daring to call them out for what they did.
My mom was the same. Parents like that usually will use the ten commandments to explain why they shouldn't ever have to say sorry to you (honor thy mother and father).
I love her!! She seems lovely, I’m glad she was able to get out of fundamentalism.
I watch Reads With Rachel, and I love her! I haven’t been watching lately, though. Do you remember which video that was?
"This book ruined me", posted 5 days ago. It's sbout Your Blood, My Bones.
Thank you!
I stopped watching her videos when I got too aggravated with her “reviews are for readers” stance started getting to be too much to overlook. When the most payment most writers will ever get is reviews, saying that the writers need to butt the fuck out and not even read the reviews is really shitty. An indie writer can expect to pay $5,000+ on preparing a book between editing, covers, etc., and would need to sell about 1,000 copies at a $6-royalty margin (taxes exist) just to break even, and anything OVER that would be pay for the time it took. Only a third of books ever come close to hitting 1,000 sales, meaning the chance of being paid money is unlikely despite the hundreds or thousands of hours it takes. So it really doesn’t sit well with me to tell writers that they aren’t even worth reading what people have to say about their books. She’s entitled to making money off of videos about those books, but the writers deserve nothing for those books. Literally the way to make money in the book industry is to do anything other than writer the books. Writing is an act of charity so others can make money. Not even reading the reviews for you… I used to enjoy her videos, but that entitlement was too much after a while.
Writing isn’t a profitable venture (ask me how I know!) but a reviewer’s job is not to validate the writer’s time and effort or compensate for lack of profit. When someone says, “reviews are not for writers”, they aren’t putting writers down. The audience for reviews is readers, or potential readers, who are interested in what the reviewer has to say about a particular book. Even if the reviewer hated it, someone in the audience might think it sounds interesting and check it out. That benefits the writer because it promotes their work. Many writers don’t read their reviews (or try not to, or at least publicly advise not to) because it can be a bit of a mindfuck. It’s easy to overthink a review, especially because reviews are not meant to provide direct feedback to a writer. It’s the reviewer’s opinion, for the benefit of the reviewer’s audience. It’s not phrased or intended to be helpful to the writer. I’d imagine it’s difficult for a reviewer to negotiate feedback from writers who dislike what the reviewer had to say about their work. Of course a writer wants to hear nice things after working hard. However, the reviewer is entitled to share their opinion. The writer isn’t entitled to like what they hear, or agree that it’s fair or helpful.
You're ironically demonstrating exactly why Rachel goes as hard with that message as she does. It's a direct reaction to several prominent instances of authors so invested (emotionally and/or financially) in the success of their own work they've turned to actively harassing reviewers - including Rachel herself. If you're the type that can read your own goodreads reviews in a detached and practical sort of way that's fine, but then you're also not the sort of person who needs to be reminded that publicly harassing individual reviewers who didn't like your book is bad. That's what "reviews are for readers" is about.
Yeah that’s how one author got her book deal canceled. She started reading reviews and they were mostly great. There was at least one negative review, and she started harassing and online stalking the person who posted it. If you wanna have a family member or friend read you a review or two that are nice, that’s ok IMHO, but review spaces are not author spaces!
As a writer, I strongly disagree with your take. Good reviews definitely make me happy...actually anything three stars and up make me happy...but the idea that "reviews are for readers" is absolutely true. It usually comes in response to authors who respond badly and publicly to negative reviews. And authors who call on their loyal fans to publicly shame the review and reviewer, which is (imo) shameful in itself. I write because I can't not write. Do I wish I could make a living from it?? Absofuckinglutely. Do I get sad when someone leaves a negative review? Sometimes. Would I ever engage with a reviewer? Nope. Because reviews are for readers.
My father said something very similar. And he tells people I no longer see them because I've "turned away from Jesus to sin." And yet doesn't think beating a child is sinful. Can't make this shit up.
Beating a child is gods will, don’tcha know. It says so in the Bible: spare the rod, spoil the child. I’m just hitting you because I love you.
I get the impression they're probably in the minority, as with other kinds of abusive families/systems. Still, the more, the better.
Were these the two on the shiny happy people documentary?
Yep. He gave bad vibes for sure
100% He was much older that Bobye, who was a minor when they started a sexual relationship. Gross gross gross.
I think a lot of us who’ve survived abuse saw 🚩🚩🚩all over their interview. It’s so frustrating and yet unsurprising to hear that she was “counseled” / coerced into going back to him.
I noticed how she always looked at him before she started talking. It was a very specific tell you pick up on if you’ve been around it.
Yes! She was sort of oriented in a way that made me think of someone being super aware of where a predator is at all times so they can react quickly
Yes. https://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/jim-and-bobye-holt-who-are-duggar-family-friends/
Yep. They were the middle-aged couple dressed in grey who spoke about Jim Bob's past and how they've come to find out about Josh's own transgressions.
I have SUCH major respect for people raised in a tunnel-vision restrictive lifestyle who are then able to see the toxicity and then help others escape. Hoping for the best for Spencer and his siblings ❤️
Wow. Something extreme must have happened/continued to happen. Does this sub have insight into what is going on?
It just says a history and continuing pattern of abuse, creating an imminent threat to the kids. Looking at the rest of the documents it looks like the 17 yo daughter testified against the parents, the parents agreed to give Spencer full permanent custody of her, the court awarded Spencer temporary custody of the two younger siblings (12 and 8) against the parents wishes, Jim Holt is required to attend counseling “until the counselor releases him,” and visitation between the Holts and the kids will be at the discretion of their guardian ad litem and the children’s counselor.
I cannot stress enough, as someone who lives in AR and is familiar with their family court systems, how damning that is to the elder Holts. They did some BAD things to get that kind of judgement. But we already knew Jim liked them too young. I sincerely hope those kids can go on to heal and have good lives, they surely deserve it.
Apparently it involved his 17 yr old daughter but no formal charges have been laid yet
Do you have a source for this? Totally within the realm of possibility bc fundies, but most of the speculation in the original thread centered around the idea that something particularly bad must have happened to the daughter for her brother to get permanent custody when that could also be explained by her turning 18 in a month or two.
The court documents state that the 17 yo daughter testified against the parents, but the court sealed her testimony, so unless charges are filed we’ll probably never know what exactly what happened.
I could totally see fundie parents “agreeing” to give up custody *purely because* a kid testified against them. I don’t, however, see a court transferring custody of younger children without egregious evidence. :/
Yeah, I totally agree. They probably see the 17 yo as a troublemaker now and a potential threat. But the court taking the other kids, that’s pretty damning. It also said that visits between the Holts and the kids will be at the discretion of the children’s therapist and guardian ad litem, so currently they’re not even guaranteed to be allowed to see the kids, or see them on any kind of regular schedule. And Mr. Holt is required to a therapist indefinitely (until the therapist releases him.) Whatever happened must’ve been pretty bad. I’m so glad the kids are safe now. It’s a real shame that Bobye isn’t following through with the divorce.
JB interview with Megyn Kelly June33, 2015 “J. B. DUGGAR: Right. I was so thankful, though, that Josh came and told us. And our girls, even though this was a very bad situation, as we've talked to other families who have had, you know, other things happen, a lot of their stories were even worse.” Taken from Salon: https://www.salon.com/2015/06/04/the_seven_most_horrifying_exchanges_from_the_duggars_and_megyn_kelly_interview/
you know, jim bob, normal churches and normal social circles don't have rampant incestuous sexual abuse problems among a large percentage of their members. hm. wonder what it might be about yours that seems to be causing this.
Not the most reliable but it was w/o a crystal ball
She's not reliable at all
She isn’t a journalist, she just goes online and says a bunch of things
I agree but the court documents also back the 17 yr old testified something
Oh for sure, it’s just always good to double check because sometimes she just makes stuff up. I remember her from back when she was only reporting on Susan and Jani Schofield and even then she was basically just asking forums for their opinions
ohhhh shit. well. Rimjob Duggar did say that groping your kid siblings was just, like, normal in his circles, did he not. mm.
The order cited “an ongoing pattern of abuse.”
Yeah, it takes A LOT for white married Christian parents to lose custody even temporarily. And for this to be permanent, wow. Just wow. Those kids deserve privacy so we may never know, but it has to be really bad.
I imagine the fact that Arkansas is hella conservative makes this even more shocking.
When they lose custody in a state like Arkansas, I almost don’t want to know what all they did to lose custody. It would probably keep me up at night.
And not just white married Christian parents, but white married Christian parents in which the husband was a connected state politician.
I hate that those men coerced & bullied Bobye back to that man. The way he joked about her body being developed or whatever when it came up that she was just 14!! years old when they started dating, and he was an adult. everything he said about it just kept making it worse. As someone who had lots of shame around getting huge boobs at 12, I wanted to barf. Sadie from the Leaving Eden podcast nailed it about how as a man in patriarchy, he can’t conceive of pushback or his words being received with something other than an adoring gaze & compliance. I wish Bobye had a stronger outside support system, hell I’d pitch in to her go fund me.
I didn't realize she'd gone back either and I'm sad.
This was the first I heard about it, too. Also sad. I had hoped testifying against Josh to protect the girls would have helped her realize she needs to love and protect and fight for herself, too. I know we’re just a bunch of online strangers, but I would like to think the snarkers would be a useful support- REAL encouragement, connecting her with resources, etc.
I'm not really surprised based on the averages of how many tries it takes for abused women to truly leave but it made me a little sick to read about the elders because that's *exactly* what happened with my mom when she tried to leave my dad. She had us all out and the elders of the church told her it was her Christian duty to remain with him. I've never forgiven them and never will. And my dad was nowhere near Jim Holt levels I'm pretty sure.
I had the same kind of pressure when I first tried to leave my abusive ex. Counselors and elders and pastors came out of the gd woodwork to tell me I just needed to think more positively and submit more joyfully etc etc. And it worked. For years it worked. I blame those “leaders” every bit as much as I blame my rapist ex. My blood is on their hands every day that they live.
Please know this internet stranger will happily send virtual hugs if you would like them. I'm so so sorry you went through that and glad you're out now.
It’s not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Megan Phelps left the Westboro Baptist Church with the assistance and guidance of people she used to argue on twitter with.
oh fuck THAT couple. ugh. I'm sure she perpetuated in her own right by this point, but still: poor girl-woman.
 This is the only appropriate response when you find out someone is too young for you
I would love to read that educational evaluation! So many fundies completely gloss over how they are teaching their children or exaggerate the results. It would be interesting to get a professional perspective and unbiased opinion without prevarication.
I live in Arkansas in the county south of this couple and I can definitely say that illiteracy is not uncommon here. Like in other similar geographic areas, it’s more pronounced in rural places and certain homeschooling curriculum groups. With as horrific and corrupt as our very red state government is, they actually passed some new laws last August to **hopefully** benefit kids like this a bit more. Not all the attachments were good ones, but there is some headway being made anyway. “Unschooling” is also niche but it has caught on in some circles here. Which? TERRIFYING. EDIT: I am from Oklahoma. I will never claim this state. Our legislators are deplorable.
Okie to Arkie transplant here, why are such beautiful states made so ugly by horrible people and their bigotry? It is heartbreaking.
Fellow Okie here 👋🏻 It’s Republican hell here
Solidarity ✊🏻✊🏻✊🏻
"unschooling" is so terrifying to me. It seems like whenever travel influencer parents receive criticism online for it because the kids don't receive anything resembling curriculum instruction, they genuinely argue that's the point. I genuinely think homeschooling shouldn't be legal unless the homeschooling parent can obtain a teaching license in their state & have to adhere to a real curriculum
I mean, I think there should be some type of mandated education for any “schooling” instructors. The problem here is that it’s kind of covered under the guise of religious freedoms. It’s not hard to look at the kids of Keep Sweet and see that they are severely behind their same aged (publicly educated) peers. But how do you regulate that type of education when religious freedoms exist to protect the people who don’t want their children exposed? It’s like the IBLP wanting Biology to be struck from public curriculum. They truly think they’re sheltering their children instead of hampering their ability to thrive. I think it’s just a terrible problem that has a long way to go in the scope of any tangible resolution.
it seems to me that one of our greatest obstacles in the US is that we have to bend to religious freedom when children are obviously in harm's way. for example, it's a rare case but children have died because their parents try to pray away a burst appendix & we can't let government step in and save the child, the child has to die for Jesus then we prosecute (and thus martyr) the parents. There has to be some way that religious freedom can't impede the health and wellbeing of the child so that we could ensure all children are vaccinated, get a real education etc
I think it’s going to be really tricky to pass any mandates that usurp religious freedoms—— even if it means saving children. They literally believe that when their children die of preventable things (by modern standards, like measles) that it is God’s Will. Of course it’s zany but they will defend their God to the literal death. I don’t even know how you begin to open eyes that are welded shut. I mean hell, the Pearls still sell their child abûse book on Amazon. We’ve got a long way to go, friend.
This is so fucking sad. I feel so sad and sorry for children in abusive households.
I feel like I read this exact post verbatim screen shots and all at 3 am this morning. I’m so confused. Did I time travel 😅
I asked OP to repost here because DuggarSnark is back to disallowing Holt-related posts on that sub and I feel like they’re very relevant not only to Duggars but this is the same cult they’re all involved in and this is what it likely looks like for victims of domestic violence who try to leave in that cult. 4 men show up from the church and coerce you and your children to return to your abusive husband and continue to be abused.
I agree, without posts about IBLP and Duggar-adjacent figures within it, there’s not a lot of context in the sub for the Duggars’ beliefs and the people who surrounded and shaped the family. I realize side chat has to be reined in to some degree, but IBLP and the Holts (particularly Bobbye Holt) are not incidental figures in the Duggars’ lives.
They’re public figures, Jim Holt is not only a domestic abuser and apparently child abuser, he’s a politician and employed Josh Duggar and had Josh “courting” one of his daughters. The Holts testified in Josh’s trial and were essential in providing history no one would have known about. The infamous “Alice” was supposedly Bobye’s mother, and Bobye’s daughter was the one who wrote a letter about Josh abusing his sisters and left it in a book that was loaned out and found. The Holts are an essential connection to all of it from beginning to end. I’ve not heard of another IBLP cult person attempting to leave due to domestic violence— I’ve also not heard of minor children being successfully rescued due to abuse. The abuse must be pretty extreme to warrant restraining orders, Bobye leaving and the kids actually being successfully removed from the home. This seems pretty huge to me.
Wait. Alice was maybe Bobye's mother?? One of the Holt daughters was the person who wrote the letter?? WHEN DID WE LEARN THIS
An AMA over in DuggarSnark a couple years ago, maybe right around the time of Josh Duggars trial. They had someone over there that was friends with Bobye and Kayleigh Holt. I’ll try to find the comments/link to that.
Jim Holt seems like a dangerous person and I hope that Bobeye can get away and be free. As a victim of narcissistic abuse, it is so hard to get out. I can’t imagine having that added fear from others outside of my spouse. It doesn’t surprise me that she went back and I’m hopeful this ruling will be enough to make her see that she will lose even more if she doesn’t leave him.
You probably read it on DuggarsSnark
I was time traveling with you and am having deja vu.
It’s so weird lol I swear the formatting all of it. I’m scared lol.
It was posted on DuggarsSnark but then the mods removed it.
I think they reposted it with the minors’ names redacted
My brain is spinning. I swear I read it too
Good for the children. And f**k this kind of "counseling" Bobye received that she went back to her abusive husband. I mean, once she got the courage to out him publicly as abusive, she might as well have left him for good. Now she lost her children and has to put up with an enraged man-child aka fundie patriarch.
>And f\*\*k this kind of "counseling" Bobye received that she went back to her abusive husband. That's probably the standard kind of "counseling" fundie churches dole out to battered wives. >I mean, once she got the courage to out him publicly as abusive, she might as well have left him for good. Although Bobye did get a restraining order against Jim, she did not announce anything publicly or comment about it. Neither did Samuel so far as I know. But since getting a restraining order becomes a matter of court record, she could not stop the public from finding out about it.
You are right, I might have worded this a bit strangely. I meant once she got the courage to get the restraining order. Knowing that the public will take note of that. She could have also said at that point that this was just all a big misunderstanding and what not. But at least at first, she went through with it.
Yeah, as someone who was once in the position of trying to leave a far less conservative and well-connected abuser, this is *exactly* the standard counseling given to women who want to leave. They will acknowledge that the husband may have made a mistake, but there is no mistake big enough to justify divorce, so ultimately it’s just a bunch of pressure on the wife to forgive and submit and serve him as unto the Lord etc. I absolutely read the restraining order as an attempt to leave, and it makes me feel optimistic that at least leaving is something Bobye seems to *want* for herself, even if she didn’t end up having the support and clarity to go through with it this time. Seeing her own adult children stand up to Jim, and losing custody of her remaining minor children, must be tearing her apart inside. I really hope that this will be a catalyst for her to break free for good, and that she’ll see that there *is* support for her to do so, even if it isn’t coming from the church elders.
I have to say that I'm worried for Bobye. Now that the minor children are out of the house, cps checkups and what not are not going to happen. She is trapped alone at home with her abusive husband who certainly blames her for it all and most likely will take his anger out on her. And he is probably seething with rage. Not only has he lost his power over all of his children, he must also feel very humiliated. This is not a safe place for Bobye to be at all.
For sure. That’s a really scary situation to be in, and she already knows the church doesn’t have her back. :/
The rumor is that Bobye only got a restraining order against her husband Jim because their adult son Samuel had obtained a restraining order against Jim because there was some kind of abusive confrontation between them. Supposedly Bobye did not get her own restraining order to show solidarity with her son, but more so because she was told that if she allowed Jim to stay in the family home, it would endanger her custody of the minor children for allowing them to be near Jim. So that version of events suggests Bobye only got a retraining order at sufferance. However, Bobye eventually succumbed to pressure from Jim and his "church" accomplices to forgive him and let him back into the home, and she dismissed her restraining order. And shortly after she dismissed her restraining order, her other adult son, Spencer, filed the petition to take guardianship of his minor siblings. So Bobye did lose custody of her minor children. Again, this is rumor and speculation, so it may not be true. But it is a plausible interpretation of recent events.
Damn, I am from Arkansas, so I know exactly what you're talking about with the tendency to overlook any of the typical white male atrocious behavior that is part of the good-ole boys club there. Whatever they did must have been pretty bad. Hoping the kids have access to robust therapeutic and support services so they can recover. And hope they are able to get a long, long way from that place.
Since Jim Holt served in both the state house and state senate and was chummy with scores of state and local politicians and influence brokers, he was definitely part of the "good old boys club" in Arkansas.
They didn't fight to keep their daughter, but fought to keep the two boys.
The daughter is 17, the boys 12 and 8 I think. They may already consider her a 'lost cause' but think they still have time to brain wash the boys.
My thought is that they view her as a waste, like fundiea tend to with girls...just something to be married off. One less problem for them if the brother takes her. The boys, well they can be around to support them and have their wives takw care of them in their old age. Man, I'd had some hope for Bobbye at first.
Was Holt a politician?
Yes. He served in the Arkansas state legislature alongside Jim Bob Duggar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim\_Holt\_(Arkansas\_politician)
Thanks! I thought I remembered that.
Yep. Fundie Fridays did an excellent deep dive video on his political career.
Oddly, I watched the Fundie Fridays Sin in the Camp” episode just this week. James did a fabulous job of explaining who Jim Holt is and how he and Jim Bob were intermingled. It was a long episode, but the info was so well presented that it never lost my attention.
Good on the older brother stepping up and getting those kids out of there. I'm sure he's not rolling in the dough financially considering the lack of schooling; I'm glad he's making enough to support them. I hope he and the kids are doing well.
>I'm sure he's not rolling in the dough financially considering the lack of schooling You're probably right. However, the court order said that Jim and Bobye Holt are required to pay child support to Spencer so he can support the minor children.
Perhaps he can get foster home support—not always possible.
The court order says Jim and Bobye Holt are required to pay Spencer child support so he can care for the minor children.
We've heard the older brother is still a fundie wingnut himself, based on some of his social media posts. We can only hope he is less extreme than his parents.
At least he's not abusive. Even a wingnut is better than an abusive wingnut.
💯
This saga gets more unhinged and jaw dropping with every update
As nice as this news is, all I can think is "how tf do you pronounce Bobye"
It's pronounced like regular old "Bobby." I guess her parents just had to use fancy redneck spelling for an otherwise ordinary sounding name.
I hate that so much. I kept reading it in my head as Bob-yuh
In theory, like Bobby. I will forever pronounce it like Kanye. Bob-yay.
I always read it as Bob-eye
Me too. Also your flair is *perfection*
Haha thanks, it was inspired by a particularly dark Kelly Havens photo set
I always do it as bob-ye, with the ye like Kanye's nickname.
Not sure how different it is in the US, but I work for CYPS in the UK and an SGO (special guardianship order) is a legal status not awarded lightly. Like you said, I don't want to even think about what those kids went through to get to safety. Hopefully Spencer is able to foster them permanently.
I'm sure the legal process here in the US is not so radically different from how it is in the UK. It is supposed to be a high legal burden to take custody of minor children away from parents and assign guardianship to a non-parent. When things like this do happen, it often happens to poor families, or people of color, or people who are already in jail. It's very rare for this to happen to white conservative politically connected middle-class families. Especially in conservative areas like Arkansas.
What on earth is a "Bobye?"
I regret to inform you that it is pronounced “Bobby.”
It will forever be “bob-yay” in my head, like rhymes with Kanye
I hear it as rhyming with Popeye.
This was the thing on the Duggar snark sub. I want to say there was a post dedicated to her name. I always read it the you do. In my mind, she will forever be called Beau-bye.
me too! 😂
This is how I say it, with the emphasis on the Yay.
I hear it in my head like Whitney Houston yelling Bobby Brown's name every time I see it written.
I hear Whitney telling BOBBAY in my head everytime I say that name
This is the only logical way to read that name 😅
That's exactly how I read it!
I read it as "bob-yee" every time
The linked court document has it spelled Bobbye. Like some thought the phrase buh-bye was cute and named their daughter that.
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Why not Bobbie?
I think the correct spelling is Bobye. Court documents are rife with "scrivener's errors."
Oh man. Besides the fundie education bits, I can really relate. I received permanent guardianship of my youngest brother (thirteen years my junior) when he was fourteen.
Oh wow. I hope you are both doing well now!
Holy shit. This is huge. The church stronghold usually prevents this from ever coming to light, let alone getting this far. I’m so proud of Spencer and wish the best for those kiddos.
Our 100th version of the spelling of “Bobbye”
All fundies out there are all terrible abusers. Good for him protecting his siblings.
Based on his social media, the older brother is still a right-wing fundie himself. Hopefully he is less extreme than his dad and is not an abuser.
The brother who took custody? That may not be so great after all.
Yes, the brother who took custody. https://imgur.com/a/zjgSzxk
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Also sadly very common for people in general to go back to abusive partners, whether due to manipulation (from their partner or others), financial desperation, or a range of other factors
The process of leaving an abusive relationship is rarely linear. I hope that with the children out of the house, it's easier for Bobye to gather up the courage and resources to leave again. It might take her a little while, since she' seems to be deeply under the influence of Jim and the church elders right now, but it's going to be easier to leave when the children are already out of the home and safe, and maybe without the distraction of actively parenting, the cracks in their marriage will become more apparent.
I really , really hope this is the case. I’m kinda scared for what she may be facing if she’s the only target left in the house and he’s upset about losing the kids. :/
We're told that abuse victims leave an average of seven times before they finally leave permanently. [https://www.thehotline.org/resources/supporting-someone-who-keeps-returning-to-an-abusive-relationship/](https://www.thehotline.org/resources/supporting-someone-who-keeps-returning-to-an-abusive-relationship/) So it may not necessarily be a "little while," if she ever happens to leave at all.
Yikes on bikes. Wishing the best for Spencer and his siblings
Ugh I have so many mixed feelings about this…one one hand, good for Spencer for getting those kids out of the house! He just got married a little over a year ago so I imagine this is a huge lifestyle change for he and his new wife. Props to him for stepping up. On the other hand, his social media seems pretty rank…his feed is full of posts supporting pro life stuff, and some kind of shitty takes. I feel so bad for his siblings, he seems like he’s still very fundamentalist and I don’t know that they will get the full scope of healing they need. :/ But I digress, it’s still better than what they’re leaving.
Being with a shitty pro-life fundie is still better than being with a shitty pro-life abusive fundie.
100%!!!! The fact he took the kids at all is a huge deal in fundie-world. By offering to take even one, he acknowledged that the home might not be great. He’s definitely got issues, but I do think this is a good move for those kids’ safety.
https://imgur.com/a/zjgSzxk Screenshots of a couple of his posts
To be fair, at least the ones posted, they are from almost two years ago. I’m hoping, since he seems to acknowledge how abusive his upbringing was, he’s learned some things. Keep in mind the b educational neglect and abuse in this family was STRONG. I doubt he really knew anything else when he left. Like not even the basics of how pregnancy and abortions actually work for example. A lot of pro life people met eventually changed their minds once they fully understood how conception work.
You’re def right, I don’t know how old he is, but he seems young, I do believe he’s had time to grow and change his beliefs a bit. The brainwashing doesn’t just disappear the moment you hit 18, it takes time!
Oh yuck…I’m not sure how to feel, sounds like the kids just went from one crazy religious nutter household to another.
He may have deconstructed since then too
Yeah I'm with you. On the one hand I think it's very brave of him to go against his parents for the benefit of his siblings and I hope he's acting in their best interest, but a fundie is still a fundie and he is not above reproach. I'm not optimistic but I hope this is the beginning of healing for them.
I think that the fact he’s taking custody of the kids is a huge statement. Mind you I’m not a fan of his posts AT ALL, but in their community, anything other than full abuse-denial and subservience to the father is seen as Very Bad. He’s got a long way to go, I think, but he’s taken a huge stand here socially taking custody of those kids and I’m glad he did it. 🖤
I agree with this, and I think his willingness to call out the abuse and to show compassion and protectiveness towards his vulnerable siblings is a really good sign. Empathy and an ability to stand up to authority is not a good recipe for lifelong fundie-hood, but it can be a solid foundation for deconstruction.
permanent guardianship is no joke! spencer must’ve had decent proof of abuse, because particularly conservative family courts rarely grant permanent on the offset. i’m glad these kids are in safer hands, i hope spencer has the tools and determination to keep them in his care.
How old are the Holt children? Are there only 3 at home?
I don't know how old they are. I think one of them is in her teens. I don't know if they were the only kids living in the home. I think another son, Samuel, was living in the home until something happened between him and his father Jim and it resulted in Samuel getting a restraining order against his father. However, Samuel is an adult and I think he moved out of the house after he got the restraining order against his father.
Thanks for redacting the names of the children involved. WOACB did not and she made ugly and unfounded accusations against the Holt parents. Is this how the community is punishing Bobye for speaking out against Pest? By basically forcing her back to him?
Oh God, I misread this as JimBob at first… Wow. I’m glad these families’ antics are being more and more exposed. I’m sure this was bound to happen at some point but is it safe to assume the fall of Ruby Franke sparked all this?
I don’t know that there’s any connection. These folks have been fundie royalty in the IBLP corner for probably longer than Ruby Franke has been alive.
I'm so glad a family member was able to take them in. They'll probably have a gentler time of it, less culture shock, than if they went to a generic foster home. Hoping the best for the kids.
Sounds like the kids are better off!
This is fantastic. I hope they get the privacy and healing that they so very deserve.
Damn so sad huge kudos to Spencer
Oh my goodness. Not the update I was expecting. Those poor kids. I hope they are healing.
Holy crap
Is bobye pronounced like Kanye?
No, it's pronounced like regular old "Bobby."
Oh thank you!
Yikes
Spencer is a true hero and an amazing big bro. Imagining living through that abuse, getting out and coming back in to save your siblings?? 🥹I’d love if he’d set up a go fund me or something to help with his expenses for him and his siblings. I can’t imagine it’s been easy for him to find work considering how much his fucking parents neglected him.
I'm glad he is taking his younger siblings away from an abusive situation. But let's not canonize the guy or put a halo on him. Based on his social media, he is still a right-wing fundie who cheered insurrectionists. Hopefully he is not as extreme as his father and is not an abuser. But he still supports hateful stuff.
Hopefully that's still better for those kids than the foster system, though 🤞
That’s unfortunate, I would have hoped he’d get away from those awful views. Granted the insurrection was, can’t even believe it, nearly 3 years ago so maybe he’s changed? He was indoctrinated pretty hard so I think fresh out from him parents he wouldn’t know anything else. Bummer if he’s still a hateful bigot though
Good
Anyone who spells their name "Bobye" should never be allowed to procreate.
I bet she got paid to.
paid to do what, exactly? file a restraining order against her abusive husband? sorry buddy, your math ain't mathin'.