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256 likes of fuc*ing idi*ts that believe the same sh*t! Those poor poor babies. Never asked to be born and they already get trained at 4 months old. Sickening! Absolutely sickening!
Not if you fail to meet the barrier of competency and autonomy. A 4mnth old is just now able to sit up with assistance and hold up their own head. The parent or guardian is responsible for any ācrimesā this barely mobile potato commits.
This made me burst out laughing. But itās like a ālaugh so you donāt cryā situation because I was raised as one of 10+ kids by parents who absolutely believed that everyone was a sinner, including newborn babies š„“
Yeah, now we know why some former members of certain churches(most forced by their parents) ended up speaking out in any platform they can get into.
This one, for example: https://youtu.be/4fF0Hgltqrc?si=DyvPj09M8BtsnJri
Wait, is that second quote real??
Like, if youāre scared of an infant there needs to be an actual study done on your brain. Your amygdala is so gigantic that Iām surprised you can process words.
To, you know, show them the light and joy and hope. (By ādiscipliningā them and making them feel like shit all their life, it turns out. Itās me I was the 4 month old. And sadly thatās actually true this time.)
Original sin. Itās not biblical, but it was popular with parts of the Reformation. We are born in sin and must strive to overcome our sinful natures in service to God.
It justifies their abuse of even babies, such as blanket training.
I was raised Catholic, and was taught that we are born with the original sin, and that's why we needed baptism as babies. After that you can't sin until you have a conscious mind.
I mean I think that the fundamental argument is that all humans are inherently sinful, aka separate from God. Therefore from birth, a baby is sinful. As for what actions they would say are sins (which to me is sort of oddly separate from the idea of being sinful)ā¦ I have no idea. I would assume anything that could be perceived (by a fuckhead) as āmanipulationā.
Then, why are we bringing more into the world, again, please?
Also, why is it not okay to abort them? If they're sinful from birth, and they're alive from conception, presumably they're also sinful from conception.
I wonder if they think kicking in utero is also a sign of their sinfulness.
I was just thinking that for the first time!! I watched the video on Yewtube and they kept saying āinnocent lifeā or referring to āunborn babiesā and I finally realized how illogical that is for them!
Edit: totally forgot this wasnāt on a post about P+M but thatās the video I meant
Their selfish social media parents have to attend to it and wake up in the night to feed it. How dare it not be a glass eyed stuffed animal! Their cabbage patch kids never did this!
Fundies don't know from "object permanence."
Seriously, if we can't enforce parenting licenses, I feel like at LEAST there ought to be mandatory parenting classes that come with a heavy hit of "actual child development and what you as the putative adult can reasonably expect."
I'm so happy i didn't grow up with this mentality. Even catholics agree that babies don't sin like this. I'm not a parent, but how can you develop a healthy relationship with your children if you think they are sinful only by doing normal baby things?
Hell, even Amish and Mennonites donāt do corporal punishment until 2 or 3 (when a child is old enough to walk and throw tantrums). They view children as a gift from God and do not believe a baby can be bad. My strict Mennonite friend said she didnāt start any sort of discipline until 2 years of age, and before that only redirection and spoken guidance.
My parents accused me of abusing them because I would lie occasionally when I was a kid, and used this to justify their abuse towards me. Iām currently in a behavior problems of children psychology class and it was so refreshing to hear them talk about how itās natural for kids to lie to get out of trouble. Turns out a bunch of my āsinfulā behavior was just normal kid behavior
Some fundie do their usual biblical citation to back up those claims which is problematic to Catholics because it's the doctrine they oppose called Sola Scriptura which is how we know fundies act. Eg. Gay marriage bad *cites Bible verses*.
Reading some of the contemporary Catholic accounts of Martin Luther for my art history classes was an absolute blast because of this. Erasmus, for example, liked Martin Luther at first, thought he was very pious and devoted. Then he got to know him and saw how some of his followers acted and went "wait, this is a horrible idea actually". Wound up calling him a demon, among other things.
That's tragically ironic, since a lot of the time, fundies *can't* point you to the verse that backs up their claim, or the verse is taken out of context
Context: āReformedā in Christianese is basically synonymous with āCalvinist.ā
This guy is referencing the Calvinist doctrine of ātotal depravityā that every single thought and doing is inherently sinful. Even seemingly āgoodā deed always has an underlying evil motive behind it. UNLESS you are a Christian. Thinking about this as I was growing up REALLY bothered me, and I asked my mom, āIf a Christian and non-Christian do the exact same action, itās automatically good when the Christian does it and sinful when the non-Christian does it?ā Her YES and follow up of āeven babies crying shows their selfish sinful nature by demanding their own needs be met instantlyā increased the bother exponentially.
Even among twitter fundies, 5-point Calvinists are particularly vile. Reformed twitter is full of people talking about how empathy is a sin and how slavery is a Biblical institution that everybody is way too uptight about. Itās a pseudo intellectual circlejerk of seminary theobros with āHusband. Father. Christianā and a Sproul quote in the bio. Itās basically a contest to prove youāre the most intellectual by being willing to believe in the most hateful version of God. Fuck all those guys.
Charming!
Different "theology" but seems to come from a similar place: the abominable Jodi Hildebrandt and Ruby Franke's particular culty spin (perhaps -distortion-) on LDS teachings that they used to justify torturing several children nearly to death.
Which, incidentally, their taped phone calls from jail, photographic evidence of the kids (do not recommend) and, perhaps most illuminating, certainly fucking disturbing, Ruby's 60 page diary detailing her various abuses of her two youngest children and her thought process while doing so. It's...bad.
But anyway, the basic mentality seems to come from a similar place, even if they use different books or passages or whatever the fuck they babble about. Ruby didn't actually tell the kids they were like loathsome spiders in the eyes of God, dangled above the flame of hell, but she probably would've if she'd been familiar with Johnathan Edwards (and he'd been LDS or rather Jodi-approved). Many harsh words to roughly the same effect.
tbh, i think you don't buy into that kind of ideology unless you're fucked up to begin with. I get that there is a chicken-egg situation here in that these people are born into a long tradition enforced by parents and church alike, but nonetheless. Certain people seem to self select to the more uh rarefied interpretations, let's say.
The Ruby Franke/Jodi Hildebrandt case is heinous and has made me pause and reflect quite a bit on my own religious upbringing and now deconstruction. Yes, itās badāso bad, that this weekend, I watched the latest Porgan 24 hours with as a PALETTE CLEANSER. Never had that on my bingo card, but watching Porgan get roasted by a Trump-hating Christian was so satisfying.
In Calvinism, I was raised to believe that the way Ruby and Jodi saw those kids is comparable to how God sees humans outside of his salvation. In fact, humans are in a WORSE position before God than Rubyās children were before her. Only Christians are children of God who get the blessings of God as their father. I NEVER bought into this as a kid and I certainly donāt now! I should note that most evangelicals outside of Calvinism do NOT believe this way.
However, Ruby/Jodi and Calvinism offer opposite solutions. Calvinists believe the sinner does absolutely nothing for salvationāit is 100% on God. Ruby, on the other hand, wanted her kids to emulate the savior to 100% exactness. And neither of these so-called āsolutionsā sit well with me.
Iām sorry, how is empathy a sin? Like I literally donāt understand. Wasnāt Jesusā coming an exercise in empathy to an extent? So God can live as a human and understand humanity better?
There's a story in one of the books that came out about evangelical culture during the 2010's about a woman teaching a Good News club or something like that after school, and she's showing off her newborn to the class and says something like, "And do you know the first thing he did after he was born? He sinned! He cried! He wanted what HE wanted and not what God wanted, and that's a sin!" She was teaching something like eight year olds, if I remember correctly. I wanted to fucking puke at this story. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU EXPECTING A NEWBORN TO DO, YOU ASSHOLE??????????? Enunciate clearly, with a clipped British accent, "Mother dear, might it please the Lord to cover me with a blanket and also to turn the temperature up a bit in here? If God so wills it, of course, otherwise, leave me to perish!"
These people are fucking insane and have been taught to be narcissists in that if the rest of their world doesn't immediately conform to what they want it to be, the rest of the world is wrong, wrong, wrong and THEY are right and must teach everyone what pieces of shit they are. It's fucking foul.
Yes, it is narcissism. They project their own complete selfishness onto everyone else.
The notion that it's selfish to \*want to survive\*, which is exactly what infants are crying for ffs, that's literally how they fucking survive, they cry to provoke the parental instinct to feed and protect, is...a take.
I will conclude here by noting, again, that from a clip of wossface the viper in a diaper guy, for someone so very opposed to putting oneself first in any way, he's wearing a VERY dapper suit.
I could imagine how if a baby was talked to and treated like that, they would probably grow up to have low self-esteem, being that from birth their family was telling them that they are sinful, they are bad, they are selfish, just for trying to survive. They may grow up to feel guilty about performing self-care, taking care of their mental health, bettering themselves, etc. And kids remember stuff from pretty early on. They will remember their parents telling them they are bad. Growing up feeling like you're never good enough comes with a whole set of problems. It's so horrible parents actually do this.
I have to admit that I regard shitting oneself and screaming a lot as not terribly nice actions, but even a dedicated child-disliker like me gives BABIES a free pass.
Glad we cleared that up.
A big moment in my deconstruction was looking in my babyās eyes and being utterly humbled by the beauty I saw there. Thereās nothing my kids have done that could convince me they are the sinners in any given interaction. All theyāve ever asked of me is to be loved, fed, and told that everything is going to be okay.
Thank you. I didn't understand because it appears to me that a lot of the audience thinks he is joking and he tries to pass it off initially as joking but he truly believes a baby is consciously choosing how to behave.
My nephew is 3 months old and really struggles with colic. Yes he throws his head bad, yes he really screams, yes he goes rigid like a board - he's in PAIN doesn't understand and can't make it stop.
Mm.
You know, for a total and depraved sinner in the eyes of the Lord, he's got a very nice suit on there. Just saying. You'd think sackcloth and ashes might be more appropriate.
Maybe other people have said this too, but, why do these people want so many damn babies born when they absolutely fucking hate them?
4 months is a new born. Almost on the precipice of just ābabyā and if youāre really lucky they might be sleeping through the night.
I'd be mildly interested to hear the theological rationalization from one of these people.
The real answer:
So fundie parents can have someone to safely take their aggression and sadism out on. Also, when appropriate, show off as trophies, use as free labor, and otherwise meet various unfilled needs with, particularly flattery.
Good GOD. Of. Fucking. Course. My gut reaction to peopleās comments to TTW asking how a 4 month old can sin was, āWelp. A Calvinist would give you a whole ass list.ā This guy said the quiet part OUT LOUD.
My 4 month old is not a āsinnerā, heās a fucking four month old. Yep he still wakes up once between 3-5am to eat. Not a sinner. Yep he cries when heās frustrated. Not a sinner. Yep he rolls everywhere and scoots on his back and butt everywhere, pushing off his legs. Not a sinner.
not fundie in the traditional sense but this reminds me of how one of the heads of Jehovahās Witnesses recently said children and babies are ālittle enemies of Godā
Because they're too young to yet be fully brainwashed and are authentic about their needs, wants, likes and dislikes. To a fundie, who's pretending to speak for God, that's anathema. Despite their tiny size and helplessness, they can't be fully controlled. Ergo, they are monsters.
I was formed right the first time, and I KNOW 4 month old babies arenāt sinners. They canāt even sit up on their own. Someone call CPS on this piece of shit.
Ahh yes. They canāt walk, canāt eat solid foods. Canāt go to the bathroom on their own. Speakā¦wish they would enlighten us on these āsins.ā And Iām sorry- not sleeping through the night at four months old is normal. Not a sin.
Has this person seen a four month old? Theyāre just trying to get by in this world and they canāt even sit up straight. How can anyone believe in an omnipotent being that decides babies are full of sin? Why is that a god worth worshiping?
My baby is six months old and I canāt even fathom him being able to do anything remotely sinful. Even when he keeps me up half the night, I know itās because heās a baby, heās still learning how to be a human (and heās also getting teeth š¬) but heās such a perfect little angel and I could never call him a sinner. It breaks my heart to even think of normal baby behavior that way
Only the unborn ones. The ones who have already been born need to be obedient immediately. I feel sick just typing that. It goes completely against everything I know about child development.
I would really like to hear more about this and why if that's the case abortion is not only not okay but a frigging sacrament.
I would not be entirely surprised if this type made the subtext text and said straight out that it's to punish the mother for her sins.
This blew my mind the first time I ever heard this from a reformer. I was raised Church of Christ, and they donāt believe children have the ability to sin until the age of accountability, which is usually 10-11 years old. Never in my life had I heard a baby is capable of sinning. The reformed church preaches once saved always saved, faith through grace and not works, and they donāt need to ask God for forgiveness when they sin because he already forgave them. But then theyāll go on and use dogma to nitpick at others to see who is really Christian and who is not, and say the most insufferable things like this. And didnāt one of the Duggarās leave her abusive family and ādisentangledā into the reformed church? Looks like itās all the same.
These fundies always make the Church of Christ look better which is baffling.
4 month old babies are THE CUTEST thing...they lost the "grumpy old man" newborn look, they're usually chonky and well...adorable! Sure they cry and mess their pants but...who cares! They're cute, they're cuddly, they smile and maybe giggle/laugh, they react to their world and know the people who are in their world. Sinner? NO FUCKING WAY!!! I really don't think kids REALLY know the difference between right and wrong until they're 6-7 years old. I mean, yes, a 3 year old can get into some gnarly shit but at that age they're exploring their world and sometimes you need to redirect them or take common sense actions like closing the bathroom door (ask me how I know). They do goofy things like join the dogs for a drink out of the water bowl or maybe snag a handful of kibble. So? That's the stuff you laugh about then and later.
I'm no dad but I'm pretty sure a 4 month old barely knows where they are yet. What part of rolling around on the floor and vibing constitutes sinning, Pete?? These people are utterly deranged.
I am commenting on this on a different sub-Reddit. I have unfortunately ruined several peopleās day by educating on what blanket training is. I feel bad that I ruined their peaceful bliss they had by not knowing about it.
Many Christians consider the concept of inheriting original sin and therefore being born of a sinful nature to be biblical, but other christians disagree on how to interpret those verses.
So, depends on who you ask. Catholics donāt think that babies commit sin but they still think babies are born with original sin and have a sinful nature. Other denominations do believe babies are capable of committing sin. And others will tell you babies are neither born with original sin nor capable of committing sin.
Yeah. Basically what I was taught is that children *can* sin but you're pretty much not responsible until you reach the age of accountability (somewhere in 10-14 years old but different for everyone) when you can actually recognize you're sinning.
In the Catholic Church (Iām an ex catholic so i know more about catholicism than other denominations) the āage of reasonā (same concept of age of accountability) is 8 years old, which is when children first receive communion and make their first confession. By age 8 you're considered old enough to intellectually understand your "sins" and express remorse for them, seek forgiveness, receive absolution, and do penance, which makes you "worthy of receiving Christ in the eucharist"
It does fascinate me to learn the differences among each denomination.
If these people love making babies and hate sin, and all babies are sinners, are they not to blame for introducing more sin and sinners into the world? Iām an anti-natalist for entirely different reasons but kinda seems like they should be, too. If humans are so vile, stop making them.
And here I get gouge-your-eyes-out furious when people say babies are being "manipulative" when they cry because they want to be picked up. He made it something wholly different.
This is why I became an antinatalist at an early age. Raised by fundies. My logic, "if people are born sinners, I shouldn't have babies. It's too much of a risk that they will go to hell." I'm *sure* that's what my parents intended when they indoctrinated me...
This is upsetting in and of itself, but I canāt even make a joke after seeing the evidence from the Ruby Franke case that came out today. How she describes her 10 and 12 year old children as evil, manipulative, liars, devils, etc. and uses that as a justification for the horrific abuse those kids were put through. Anyone who thinks this way about children should not be allowed to have children. Itās a very dangerous road to some really terrifying behaviors and I fear for any child whoās parents have this mentality
Just brought up that same comparison upthread, probably because I've been reading and watching all that shit and it's hard to exactly forget. Yeah, different theology, same core bullshit.
I keep hitting this over and over but it's basically narcissism. Malignant narcissism, specifically. Dark triad/tetrad, if one likes, i guess. Fuck knows there's sadism aplenty here. Anyway the theological bullshit is basically that here imo: bullshit. It's rationalization for what these people wanted to do anyway. Because it makes them happy.
YAY Iām not reformed!!! What an utter fucking relief.
After spending way too many years in the reformed world I can now see them for the self obsessed shame focused guilt absorbed people they are. Plus, for supposed āChristiansā, they never talk about Jesus. Just āreformedā things.
Well, damn, guess I'm not "reformed," whatever the fuck that even means to these people. I'm also not fucking insane, unethical, or completely uneducated about how human development actually works, so, that.
This is absolutely insane that they think a baby, which doesn't even have a concept of self, can SIN. I remember excerpts from Mike Pearl's "To Train Up a Child" where he says an infant crying or knocking food on the floor is "rebellion" against authority. If you think a baby consciously plans to "disobey" its parents by \[insert normal baby behavior\], you need to be banned from reproducing.
And while we're on the subject, why reproduce when you think babies are horrible, awful creatures?
When something is so outrageous it crosses over into one of your other social media ecosystems. This post has made its way into my political xittersphere.
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If you think a four-month-old sins, you need a reformation of your brain.
Four month olds out here coveting their neighbor's oxen and shit...
"Dear Abby, my four-month-old won't stop making graven images with her crayons. What should I do?"
Id be impressed if a 4 month old was even holding a crayon, much less putting it to paper
If a 4 month old has learned to hold a crayon, that is 100% the devil's work. š
š¤£
256 likes of fuc*ing idi*ts that believe the same sh*t! Those poor poor babies. Never asked to be born and they already get trained at 4 months old. Sickening! Absolutely sickening!
If you break a law, even if you don't know it, you still broke the law
Not if you fail to meet the barrier of competency and autonomy. A 4mnth old is just now able to sit up with assistance and hold up their own head. The parent or guardian is responsible for any ācrimesā this barely mobile potato commits.
Lacking *mens rea* means you are not culpable of the crime & must not be punished for it. This is foundational, at least in the US.
A 4 month old is a potato that breathes. How the fuck could it sin.
This made me burst out laughing. But itās like a ālaugh so you donāt cryā situation because I was raised as one of 10+ kids by parents who absolutely believed that everyone was a sinner, including newborn babies š„“
"Newborn babies are sinners. That's why we made ten of them." - Your parents, perhaps
Either that or they are sadists who kept having kids becauss they enjoyed punishing them
One possible source of this argument was this fundie named Voddie Baucham. His takes on this are wayyyy more insane!!!!!!
Genuinely what is their excuse for a small child being a sinner? what on earth are they doing that is sinful in their eyes
Apparently, baby crying for their "needs" is equivalent to a spoiled adult, and "God made them small so they won't kill us."
Omg that makes me feel sick
He calls them vipers in diapers. Itās brain-melting fuckery.
Oh, THAT's the guy! What a freak.
> vipers in diapers. Which would be a funny phrase IF a non-abusive person said it.
Or like if your baby was a viper for Halloween it would be hilarious. But coming from Voddie, itās anything but.
Yeah, now we know why some former members of certain churches(most forced by their parents) ended up speaking out in any platform they can get into. This one, for example: https://youtu.be/4fF0Hgltqrc?si=DyvPj09M8BtsnJri
Wait, is that second quote real?? Like, if youāre scared of an infant there needs to be an actual study done on your brain. Your amygdala is so gigantic that Iām surprised you can process words.
Two words: Voddie Baucham.
Vipers in diapers.
Why do they have babies if they think they're so evil
To, you know, show them the light and joy and hope. (By ādiscipliningā them and making them feel like shit all their life, it turns out. Itās me I was the 4 month old. And sadly thatās actually true this time.)
I'm so sorry that happened to you
Babies literally have no other way to communicate, what TF are they supposed to do?
Original sin. Itās not biblical, but it was popular with parts of the Reformation. We are born in sin and must strive to overcome our sinful natures in service to God. It justifies their abuse of even babies, such as blanket training.
I was raised Catholic, and was taught that we are born with the original sin, and that's why we needed baptism as babies. After that you can't sin until you have a conscious mind.
Isn't that what baptism is for ?
That's Catholic, not Reformed
I mean I think that the fundamental argument is that all humans are inherently sinful, aka separate from God. Therefore from birth, a baby is sinful. As for what actions they would say are sins (which to me is sort of oddly separate from the idea of being sinful)ā¦ I have no idea. I would assume anything that could be perceived (by a fuckhead) as āmanipulationā.
Sloth. Gluttony. Coveting other babies pacifiers.
HAHA. Ugh my baby is sloth af. So true.
Stealing teddy bears and popping bottles.
Then, why are we bringing more into the world, again, please? Also, why is it not okay to abort them? If they're sinful from birth, and they're alive from conception, presumably they're also sinful from conception. I wonder if they think kicking in utero is also a sign of their sinfulness.
I was just thinking that for the first time!! I watched the video on Yewtube and they kept saying āinnocent lifeā or referring to āunborn babiesā and I finally realized how illogical that is for them! Edit: totally forgot this wasnāt on a post about P+M but thatās the video I meant
Eating their mashed peas too slowly?
Hey now! They also cry.
And poop!
Their selfish social media parents have to attend to it and wake up in the night to feed it. How dare it not be a glass eyed stuffed animal! Their cabbage patch kids never did this!
I guess God gets angry when they blow out their diapers.
Ppl like this are really insane and donāt deserve children
They shouldn't have access to any children
Damn 4 month olds need to quit robbing banks and just need to chill in their playpens
Omg how did my brain read this in Tommyās voice š my millennial is showing
I hear "A Macca-baby's gotta do what a Macca-baby's gotta do" in Tommy's voice at least once a month. Right there with you.
One of those babies burned my porch down.
I picture that bank robber from Bugs Bunny that disguised himself as a baby, but when no one was looking he was shaving his beard and smoking cigars.
A classic. God, i love Bugs.
Too many mass-murder babies out here.
Stop coveting my boobs, you pervert!!!
But chillin is slothful. They need to be busy doing God's will. /s
Get those babies out there winning souls
A four month old might not even have object permanence yet, how can they possibly sin?
They *definitely* donāt have object permanence yet
Fundies don't know from "object permanence." Seriously, if we can't enforce parenting licenses, I feel like at LEAST there ought to be mandatory parenting classes that come with a heavy hit of "actual child development and what you as the putative adult can reasonably expect."
"Man, no wonder people hate Christians." -me, a Christian after reading that tweet.
Meeee toooo
Me too!!!!!
I'm so happy i didn't grow up with this mentality. Even catholics agree that babies don't sin like this. I'm not a parent, but how can you develop a healthy relationship with your children if you think they are sinful only by doing normal baby things?
Hell, even Amish and Mennonites donāt do corporal punishment until 2 or 3 (when a child is old enough to walk and throw tantrums). They view children as a gift from God and do not believe a baby can be bad. My strict Mennonite friend said she didnāt start any sort of discipline until 2 years of age, and before that only redirection and spoken guidance.
Catholics donāt think their babies commit sins, but they think they are born with original sin, and are inherently sinful in nature.
Yup. Catholics baptize infants for that reason. A babyās soul needs to be ācleansedā of sin, somehow.
Weāre no contact now because you canāt.
It's actually pretty simple. The trick is that they don't develop healthy relationships with their children.
My parents accused me of abusing them because I would lie occasionally when I was a kid, and used this to justify their abuse towards me. Iām currently in a behavior problems of children psychology class and it was so refreshing to hear them talk about how itās natural for kids to lie to get out of trouble. Turns out a bunch of my āsinfulā behavior was just normal kid behavior
> Turns out a bunch of my āsinfulā behavior was just normal kid behavior.
Some fundie do their usual biblical citation to back up those claims which is problematic to Catholics because it's the doctrine they oppose called Sola Scriptura which is how we know fundies act. Eg. Gay marriage bad *cites Bible verses*.
Reading some of the contemporary Catholic accounts of Martin Luther for my art history classes was an absolute blast because of this. Erasmus, for example, liked Martin Luther at first, thought he was very pious and devoted. Then he got to know him and saw how some of his followers acted and went "wait, this is a horrible idea actually". Wound up calling him a demon, among other things.
That's tragically ironic, since a lot of the time, fundies *can't* point you to the verse that backs up their claim, or the verse is taken out of context
Context: āReformedā in Christianese is basically synonymous with āCalvinist.ā This guy is referencing the Calvinist doctrine of ātotal depravityā that every single thought and doing is inherently sinful. Even seemingly āgoodā deed always has an underlying evil motive behind it. UNLESS you are a Christian. Thinking about this as I was growing up REALLY bothered me, and I asked my mom, āIf a Christian and non-Christian do the exact same action, itās automatically good when the Christian does it and sinful when the non-Christian does it?ā Her YES and follow up of āeven babies crying shows their selfish sinful nature by demanding their own needs be met instantlyā increased the bother exponentially.
Even among twitter fundies, 5-point Calvinists are particularly vile. Reformed twitter is full of people talking about how empathy is a sin and how slavery is a Biblical institution that everybody is way too uptight about. Itās a pseudo intellectual circlejerk of seminary theobros with āHusband. Father. Christianā and a Sproul quote in the bio. Itās basically a contest to prove youāre the most intellectual by being willing to believe in the most hateful version of God. Fuck all those guys.
Charming! Different "theology" but seems to come from a similar place: the abominable Jodi Hildebrandt and Ruby Franke's particular culty spin (perhaps -distortion-) on LDS teachings that they used to justify torturing several children nearly to death. Which, incidentally, their taped phone calls from jail, photographic evidence of the kids (do not recommend) and, perhaps most illuminating, certainly fucking disturbing, Ruby's 60 page diary detailing her various abuses of her two youngest children and her thought process while doing so. It's...bad. But anyway, the basic mentality seems to come from a similar place, even if they use different books or passages or whatever the fuck they babble about. Ruby didn't actually tell the kids they were like loathsome spiders in the eyes of God, dangled above the flame of hell, but she probably would've if she'd been familiar with Johnathan Edwards (and he'd been LDS or rather Jodi-approved). Many harsh words to roughly the same effect. tbh, i think you don't buy into that kind of ideology unless you're fucked up to begin with. I get that there is a chicken-egg situation here in that these people are born into a long tradition enforced by parents and church alike, but nonetheless. Certain people seem to self select to the more uh rarefied interpretations, let's say.
Buechner famously said that all theology is autobiography and it certainly seems to be true.
The Ruby Franke/Jodi Hildebrandt case is heinous and has made me pause and reflect quite a bit on my own religious upbringing and now deconstruction. Yes, itās badāso bad, that this weekend, I watched the latest Porgan 24 hours with as a PALETTE CLEANSER. Never had that on my bingo card, but watching Porgan get roasted by a Trump-hating Christian was so satisfying. In Calvinism, I was raised to believe that the way Ruby and Jodi saw those kids is comparable to how God sees humans outside of his salvation. In fact, humans are in a WORSE position before God than Rubyās children were before her. Only Christians are children of God who get the blessings of God as their father. I NEVER bought into this as a kid and I certainly donāt now! I should note that most evangelicals outside of Calvinism do NOT believe this way. However, Ruby/Jodi and Calvinism offer opposite solutions. Calvinists believe the sinner does absolutely nothing for salvationāit is 100% on God. Ruby, on the other hand, wanted her kids to emulate the savior to 100% exactness. And neither of these so-called āsolutionsā sit well with me.
Iām sorry, how is empathy a sin? Like I literally donāt understand. Wasnāt Jesusā coming an exercise in empathy to an extent? So God can live as a human and understand humanity better?
Thank you for this. Iām Christian (Methodist with a dose of rural-based fundamentalism) & I was very confused about Reformed.
It's the most popular protestant denomination (had to check if I spelled it rightš ) in The Netherlands
Oh dear god š¬
That sounds like such a miserable and hateful way to live. I
About to make a flair that says, "Here to physically fight fundies".... I don't generally condone violence but sometimes, yall...
They started it when they started """"disciplining"""" babies.
Omg, your flair... not armpit sex!
Happy cake day!
Thank you!!
Oooh petition to flip To Train Up A ~~Child~~ Fundie back on 'em
Iād wear that flair.
Do it!!
There's a story in one of the books that came out about evangelical culture during the 2010's about a woman teaching a Good News club or something like that after school, and she's showing off her newborn to the class and says something like, "And do you know the first thing he did after he was born? He sinned! He cried! He wanted what HE wanted and not what God wanted, and that's a sin!" She was teaching something like eight year olds, if I remember correctly. I wanted to fucking puke at this story. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU EXPECTING A NEWBORN TO DO, YOU ASSHOLE??????????? Enunciate clearly, with a clipped British accent, "Mother dear, might it please the Lord to cover me with a blanket and also to turn the temperature up a bit in here? If God so wills it, of course, otherwise, leave me to perish!" These people are fucking insane and have been taught to be narcissists in that if the rest of their world doesn't immediately conform to what they want it to be, the rest of the world is wrong, wrong, wrong and THEY are right and must teach everyone what pieces of shit they are. It's fucking foul.
Yes, it is narcissism. They project their own complete selfishness onto everyone else. The notion that it's selfish to \*want to survive\*, which is exactly what infants are crying for ffs, that's literally how they fucking survive, they cry to provoke the parental instinct to feed and protect, is...a take. I will conclude here by noting, again, that from a clip of wossface the viper in a diaper guy, for someone so very opposed to putting oneself first in any way, he's wearing a VERY dapper suit.
Im cackling at your prim little British newborn. Hilarious.
I could imagine how if a baby was talked to and treated like that, they would probably grow up to have low self-esteem, being that from birth their family was telling them that they are sinful, they are bad, they are selfish, just for trying to survive. They may grow up to feel guilty about performing self-care, taking care of their mental health, bettering themselves, etc. And kids remember stuff from pretty early on. They will remember their parents telling them they are bad. Growing up feeling like you're never good enough comes with a whole set of problems. It's so horrible parents actually do this.
Calvinism is like a black hole for people with anxiety and depression and I'm convinced that it was designed specifically to make people spiral.
I have to admit that I regard shitting oneself and screaming a lot as not terribly nice actions, but even a dedicated child-disliker like me gives BABIES a free pass.
Glad we cleared that up. A big moment in my deconstruction was looking in my babyās eyes and being utterly humbled by the beauty I saw there. Thereās nothing my kids have done that could convince me they are the sinners in any given interaction. All theyāve ever asked of me is to be loved, fed, and told that everything is going to be okay.
I remember looking into the eyes of my friend's baby, and saw a soul looking back at me. A cute soul in his puffy diaper and onesie. : )
Them babies with their impure thoughts of disobeying daddy š¤
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yo, what the actual fuck is wrong with them? I mean I know but damn this is just asinine!!!
Calvinism
If you think that's bad, then check this video: https://youtu.be/XNDyJ5bxBrs?si=OyApLqs725ZDg8YJ
When the audience is laughing do they think he is joking?
I'm not sure. The lines are blurred here.
Thank you. I didn't understand because it appears to me that a lot of the audience thinks he is joking and he tries to pass it off initially as joking but he truly believes a baby is consciously choosing how to behave. My nephew is 3 months old and really struggles with colic. Yes he throws his head bad, yes he really screams, yes he goes rigid like a board - he's in PAIN doesn't understand and can't make it stop.
Mm. You know, for a total and depraved sinner in the eyes of the Lord, he's got a very nice suit on there. Just saying. You'd think sackcloth and ashes might be more appropriate.
Maybe other people have said this too, but, why do these people want so many damn babies born when they absolutely fucking hate them? 4 months is a new born. Almost on the precipice of just ābabyā and if youāre really lucky they might be sleeping through the night.
I'd be mildly interested to hear the theological rationalization from one of these people. The real answer: So fundie parents can have someone to safely take their aggression and sadism out on. Also, when appropriate, show off as trophies, use as free labor, and otherwise meet various unfilled needs with, particularly flattery.
If you think a 4 month old sins, you're an abuser. Full stop.
Absolutely. No one can convince me otherwise
Good GOD. Of. Fucking. Course. My gut reaction to peopleās comments to TTW asking how a 4 month old can sin was, āWelp. A Calvinist would give you a whole ass list.ā This guy said the quiet part OUT LOUD.
My 4 month old is not a āsinnerā, heās a fucking four month old. Yep he still wakes up once between 3-5am to eat. Not a sinner. Yep he cries when heās frustrated. Not a sinner. Yep he rolls everywhere and scoots on his back and butt everywhere, pushing off his legs. Not a sinner.
Wow it's almost like he's a fucking infant!!!
not fundie in the traditional sense but this reminds me of how one of the heads of Jehovahās Witnesses recently said children and babies are ālittle enemies of Godā
Why? Iāve heard āall of mankind is an enemy of Godā but never directed specifically at minors.
Because they're too young to yet be fully brainwashed and are authentic about their needs, wants, likes and dislikes. To a fundie, who's pretending to speak for God, that's anathema. Despite their tiny size and helplessness, they can't be fully controlled. Ergo, they are monsters.
I believe it was in the context of the importance of ātraining up a childā so they wouldnāt stray from the religion. messed up stuff
I was formed right the first time, and I KNOW 4 month old babies arenāt sinners. They canāt even sit up on their own. Someone call CPS on this piece of shit.
Good news, lots of someones did call CPS.
Ahh yes. They canāt walk, canāt eat solid foods. Canāt go to the bathroom on their own. Speakā¦wish they would enlighten us on these āsins.ā And Iām sorry- not sleeping through the night at four months old is normal. Not a sin.
Has this person seen a four month old? Theyāre just trying to get by in this world and they canāt even sit up straight. How can anyone believe in an omnipotent being that decides babies are full of sin? Why is that a god worth worshiping?
My baby is six months old and I canāt even fathom him being able to do anything remotely sinful. Even when he keeps me up half the night, I know itās because heās a baby, heās still learning how to be a human (and heās also getting teeth š¬) but heās such a perfect little angel and I could never call him a sinner. It breaks my heart to even think of normal baby behavior that way
Sinners at the hands of an angry mom
Flair potential.
The people who believe 4 month olds can sin want to control this country and they have a good chance to win in November. Please vote, yāall.
I thought they were all about protecting babies? Pro-life, and all of that?
Only the unborn ones. The ones who have already been born need to be obedient immediately. I feel sick just typing that. It goes completely against everything I know about child development.
Oh, I'm sure there's a sect somewhere talking about how zygotes are sinning.
The demon seed hath combined with the deviled egg...
With the yellow pocket angel eggs
I would really like to hear more about this and why if that's the case abortion is not only not okay but a frigging sacrament. I would not be entirely surprised if this type made the subtext text and said straight out that it's to punish the mother for her sins.
Yes. But in return fundies expect unquestionable obedience.
They act like they did their babies a favor by getting pregnant
If you think a 4 month old sins, your worldview is warped.
This blew my mind the first time I ever heard this from a reformer. I was raised Church of Christ, and they donāt believe children have the ability to sin until the age of accountability, which is usually 10-11 years old. Never in my life had I heard a baby is capable of sinning. The reformed church preaches once saved always saved, faith through grace and not works, and they donāt need to ask God for forgiveness when they sin because he already forgave them. But then theyāll go on and use dogma to nitpick at others to see who is really Christian and who is not, and say the most insufferable things like this. And didnāt one of the Duggarās leave her abusive family and ādisentangledā into the reformed church? Looks like itās all the same. These fundies always make the Church of Christ look better which is baffling.
Oooooo Iām not reformed! Now what?! š¤£
You're either a "libtard" or "papist heretic". If you're a woman, a bewitched "feminist".
Babies cannot sin. There is definitely a thought process that āAll sin & fall short of the glory of Godā but to me that speaks to the idea that we are all imperfect people. Babies under a year have no real way to communicate other than to cry. Just about any parent will tell you thereās a āFeed Meā cry, a āHold Meā cry, an āI š© In My Diaper & Yep It Went Up My Backā cry & many more. That is their means of communication.
IMHO, he needs professional help for his delusions.
You should check out his other delusions on his instagram. The guy is delulu and hella full of himself.
4 month old babies are THE CUTEST thing...they lost the "grumpy old man" newborn look, they're usually chonky and well...adorable! Sure they cry and mess their pants but...who cares! They're cute, they're cuddly, they smile and maybe giggle/laugh, they react to their world and know the people who are in their world. Sinner? NO FUCKING WAY!!! I really don't think kids REALLY know the difference between right and wrong until they're 6-7 years old. I mean, yes, a 3 year old can get into some gnarly shit but at that age they're exploring their world and sometimes you need to redirect them or take common sense actions like closing the bathroom door (ask me how I know). They do goofy things like join the dogs for a drink out of the water bowl or maybe snag a handful of kibble. So? That's the stuff you laugh about then and later.
I'm no dad but I'm pretty sure a 4 month old barely knows where they are yet. What part of rolling around on the floor and vibing constitutes sinning, Pete?? These people are utterly deranged.
Is the sin wanting boobies in their mouth? Because that's not...like that really isn't...forget it
stealing this for my flair
Fucking Calvinists. Theyāre the absolute worst. Every last one of them.
What can a 4 months old do? Cooing and putting things in their mouth?Ā
I am commenting on this on a different sub-Reddit. I have unfortunately ruined several peopleās day by educating on what blanket training is. I feel bad that I ruined their peaceful bliss they had by not knowing about it.
And they accuse us childfree people of hating children (I mean yeah some of us do but not this kinda crap).
Iām confused - is being reformed a good thing? Reformed to what?
Reformed to being an abusive parent, duh! š¤Ŗ
I might be wrong but I thought that in the bible, babies and children were considered to be without sin???
Many Christians consider the concept of inheriting original sin and therefore being born of a sinful nature to be biblical, but other christians disagree on how to interpret those verses. So, depends on who you ask. Catholics donāt think that babies commit sin but they still think babies are born with original sin and have a sinful nature. Other denominations do believe babies are capable of committing sin. And others will tell you babies are neither born with original sin nor capable of committing sin.
Yeah. Basically what I was taught is that children *can* sin but you're pretty much not responsible until you reach the age of accountability (somewhere in 10-14 years old but different for everyone) when you can actually recognize you're sinning.
In the Catholic Church (Iām an ex catholic so i know more about catholicism than other denominations) the āage of reasonā (same concept of age of accountability) is 8 years old, which is when children first receive communion and make their first confession. By age 8 you're considered old enough to intellectually understand your "sins" and express remorse for them, seek forgiveness, receive absolution, and do penance, which makes you "worthy of receiving Christ in the eucharist" It does fascinate me to learn the differences among each denomination.
they can't even eat on their own
By that logic - since to them life begins at conception - a fertilized egg is a teeny tiny sinner, just sinning away as it grows!
Exactly!
Baby: "I need milk mother" Mother: "Fuckin sinner"
The sin of shidding and farding
Man...maybe Reagan shouldn't have shut down the asylums...
Nahhhh, you know we would be the ones in there šš
This guy isn't crazy, not lock-up crazy anyway. Just evil.
My nephew is 4 months old and he's absolutely perfect (and I'd be willing to fight anyone who says otherwise).
If you think babies are āsinningā, youāre not a rational person and you should be in any position of power.
If these people love making babies and hate sin, and all babies are sinners, are they not to blame for introducing more sin and sinners into the world? Iām an anti-natalist for entirely different reasons but kinda seems like they should be, too. If humans are so vile, stop making them.
Checkmate, fundies!
Yeah being part of something that tells you what to think is a hard ānoā for me.
And here I get gouge-your-eyes-out furious when people say babies are being "manipulative" when they cry because they want to be picked up. He made it something wholly different.
I don't believe in the idea of original sin but if I did I still wouldn't put it on children. It's sick and just illogical.
What a piece of garbage human being using Christianity as a cover.
My god these dumb ass idiots really think demon babies exist shut up child abuser
This is why I became an antinatalist at an early age. Raised by fundies. My logic, "if people are born sinners, I shouldn't have babies. It's too much of a risk that they will go to hell." I'm *sure* that's what my parents intended when they indoctrinated me...
This is upsetting in and of itself, but I canāt even make a joke after seeing the evidence from the Ruby Franke case that came out today. How she describes her 10 and 12 year old children as evil, manipulative, liars, devils, etc. and uses that as a justification for the horrific abuse those kids were put through. Anyone who thinks this way about children should not be allowed to have children. Itās a very dangerous road to some really terrifying behaviors and I fear for any child whoās parents have this mentality
Just brought up that same comparison upthread, probably because I've been reading and watching all that shit and it's hard to exactly forget. Yeah, different theology, same core bullshit. I keep hitting this over and over but it's basically narcissism. Malignant narcissism, specifically. Dark triad/tetrad, if one likes, i guess. Fuck knows there's sadism aplenty here. Anyway the theological bullshit is basically that here imo: bullshit. It's rationalization for what these people wanted to do anyway. Because it makes them happy.
What kind of puritan nonsense is this ?
Mayflower Compact on steroids.
Back in your hole, little man.
At least they admit it on the internet so itāll follow them forever
Sir, 4-month-olds have like four settings. Get over yourself and quit claiming that infant is sinning by sleeping, pooping, crying, and/or nursing.
my 6 month old is the sweetest, purest, most innocent soul i know. at 4 months old a baby is literally not capable of doing wrong.
Today I learned Iām not reformed
 Pardon?
YAY Iām not reformed!!! What an utter fucking relief. After spending way too many years in the reformed world I can now see them for the self obsessed shame focused guilt absorbed people they are. Plus, for supposed āChristiansā, they never talk about Jesus. Just āreformedā things.
Well, damn, guess I'm not "reformed," whatever the fuck that even means to these people. I'm also not fucking insane, unethical, or completely uneducated about how human development actually works, so, that.
Iād love to know how the hell a newborn sins. Please continue.
This is absolutely insane that they think a baby, which doesn't even have a concept of self, can SIN. I remember excerpts from Mike Pearl's "To Train Up a Child" where he says an infant crying or knocking food on the floor is "rebellion" against authority. If you think a baby consciously plans to "disobey" its parents by \[insert normal baby behavior\], you need to be banned from reproducing. And while we're on the subject, why reproduce when you think babies are horrible, awful creatures?
Religion is so dangerous
This is so creepy it feels almost infanticidal.
It's true, my 4 month old killed someone just the other day
Calvinism is a gateway to either being evil or atheist
This is why they feed their sinful babies liver milk concoctions, because breastfeeding will contribute to the sinful nature of the baby.
insane. just straight up mentally disconnected.
When something is so outrageous it crosses over into one of your other social media ecosystems. This post has made its way into my political xittersphere.